CHOW ADWD: Daenerys I
Ben
Dragons_
Sorry for the slight delay in getting this out.
This is the first Daenerys Chapter.
This chapter was originally posted online at GRRM's site very soon
after the Tyrion chapter, IMHO the best of the three that I remember
being leaked out oh so many years ago.
Daenerys hears the dead man approaching (something with a very
different meaning at the Wall, where in about five books or so Dany
should eventually end up). It’s an Unsullied who has been murdered by
the Harpy’s Sons, the remnants of the murderous royal houses of Mereen
who are engaged in guerilla war against everything Daenerys stands for
ever since she impaled 163 Wise Masters and took over Mereen as its
Dragon Queen.
The dead Unsullied took the name “Stalwart Shield” which seems a
relatively proud name. It is revealed that most of the Unsullied have
assumed such monikers, following the lead of their leader Grey Worm
(though apparently not with his humility). He apparently had taken to
paying whores in brothels to lie with him and hold him (lacking the
equipment to do much of anything else with them) and was ambushed
there.
Dany dispatches Grey Worm with the command to find out who did this.
Sir Barristan Selmy points out the very obvious fact that the
Unsullied are Unsuited to perform this task, but Dany has nobody else.
Her ragged and tiny khalasar had been sent outside the city to subdue
the outlying areas and Brown Ben Plumm and his mercenary company
Second Sons were guarding the south against Yunkish incursions.
Daarion Naharis and his Stormcrows had been dispatched to attempt a
negotiation with the Lamb Men (who it will be remembered spawned Mirri
Maz Durr, who killed Khal Drogo and Dany’s son) and thereby provide
food and a trade route for Mereen who lack both now that their main
staple of trade, slavery, has been outlawed.
After her entourage departs, Dany notes that she has not been
attentive enough to her dragons, who are snappish and have grown lazy.
She looks forward to the date soon in the future when they can bear
her weight as they did Aegon the Conqueror. She then impatiently dons
the cumbersome tokar of a Ghiscari noble and meets her court and those
presented to her today. Brown Ben Plumm has pointed out “Man wants to
be the king o’ the rabbits, he best wear a pair of floppy ears.” She
thinks portentously of her murdered brother’s son Aegon, who would
have been a more suitable spouse for her rather than her brother
Viserys.
Besides Barristan the Bold, the only member of Dany’s Queensguard, her
court consists of Reznak mo Reznak (remind anyone of Moe Sizlak?) her
oily seneschal and apparently a representative of everything douchy in
Mereen, and Skahaz mo Kandaq, the exact opposite, an unsubtle shaven-
headed angry fellow. His followers shaved their heads to reject the
ancient Ghiscari customs. When Dany wants to increase the reward paid
for information to find the murderous Harpy’s Sons, Shavepate responds
that a better strategy would be to yank a member of each royal family
out and murder them for every man killed, which will stop the murders
quickly. Reznak objects, wringing his hands for the hostility this
will create. Dany despises him, but follows her original and surely
doomed plan to pay more for nothing.
She then meets with those who have issues to discuss in front of the
court, which is dominated by her Unsullied bodyguards. The first envoy
is Lord Ghael, a freed slave and representative of Cleon the Great of
Astapor, who has been pressing for Dany’s hand in marriage to bond an
alliance in war against the Yunkai, which Dany of course rejects,
though she takes his offered slippers sewn with freshwater pearls. The
next suitor is Hizdahr zo Loraq, who has acquired most of the slave
fighting pits in the city and pleas for Dany to re-open them, which
will ingratiate her with the public and generate impressive revenue.
She notes that without his silly Ghiscari hair he might be hansome.
She rejects his plea nonetheless.
Her next meeting is with Grazdan zo Galare, a cousin of the Green
Graces, whose counsel Dany had used and valued. The merchant wants
recompense for the former slaves who were trained how to weave in his
house and now had set up their own company and were undercutting him.
He has forgotten the name of the old slave who taught them because he
has owned so many. Dany orders that the merchant pay for a fine new
loom for them as recompense for forgetting his slave’s name.
Several other such suitors follow, which Dany rules on, appearing to
please nobody with her decisions. She also shows a disturbing tendency
to think of other things and not pay terribly close attention to the
words of those presenting to her. She then is provided a few gifts
from grateful locals, a prized fish and suit of fine armor, which she
rewards the presenters. Lastly there are three and twenty farmers who
had come to make claims for lost livestock, claiming the dragons had
eaten them. Without the ability to determine if the burned bones were
simply cooked or dragon-fired, Dany agrees to pay their claims.
But one lonely and sad claimant remains. He bears a sack of burnt
bones but seems hesitant to present them. When Reznak imperiously
demands that he will be paid, Barristan shuts him up, pointing out
that the blackened bones are no sheep. No, Dany thinks, those are the
bones of a child.
=========
A little bit longer than Tyrion, but still relatively quick. It does
move things along and lets us know what is going on with Dany while
also providing us insight that all is not necessarily good about
having dragons as children.
No real gore except for the dead Unsullied, who is only referenced as
having goat testicles shoved down his throat as the Astapori had left
him nothing, not root nor stem. But this is only secondhand.
No sex at all, unusual in a Dany chapter. I bet when HBO gets ahold of
it she will be up to some Sapphic love prior to meeting the court or
we’ll at least get a nice nude scene of her putting on the tokar.
No laughs either, a relatively purposeful chapter without much in the
way of detour.
Probably not a lot new to talk about other than the now purposeful
mention of Rhaegar’s son. Again Dany shows a disturbing tendency not
to do what needs doing. She wavers from a hard-core surprise decision-
maker (usually a rash one) to a waffling liberal. I know this is
probably to make it understood that ruling is difficult, and all her
troubles her will make her a great Queen of Westeros in approximately
2025, but she doesn’t appear to have retained much of the maturity she
appeared to gain in her previous route of the slave cities.
Barristan once again strikes me as a very astute man. He must have
been a great advisor to Robert, who unfortunately must never have
listened to him. I also like the Shavepate instantly while despising
Reznak and pretty much all the oily Ghiscari, surely by Martin’s
intention. But I truly fail to see any reason for Dany to stay here.
Didn’t understand it when she stopped her rampage two books ago and
don’t now.
John Vreeland
wrote:
>This is a Chapter of the Week for George R. R. Martin's, _A Dance With
>Dragons_
>
>Sorry for the slight delay in getting this out.
>
>This is the first Daenerys Chapter.
>
>This chapter was originally posted online at GRRM's site very soon
>after the Tyrion chapter, IMHO the best of the three that I remember
>being leaked out oh so many years ago.
Did he change it at some point? Maybe my understanding of it changed.
>Daenerys hears the dead man approaching (something with a very
>different meaning at the Wall, where in about five books or so Dany
>should eventually end up). It�s an Unsullied who has been murdered by
>the Harpy�s Sons, the remnants of the murderous royal houses of Mereen
>who are engaged in guerilla war against everything Daenerys stands for
>ever since she impaled 163 Wise Masters and took over Mereen as its
>Dragon Queen.
>
>The dead Unsullied took the name �Stalwart Shield� which seems a
>relatively proud name. It is revealed that most of the Unsullied have
>assumed such monikers, following the lead of their leader Grey Worm
>(though apparently not with his humility). He apparently had taken to
>paying whores in brothels to lie with him and hold him (lacking the
>equipment to do much of anything else with them) and was ambushed
>there.
Should have gotten himself a puppy. The names also seem to indicate
their tie to Danaerys herself. This man was HER Stalwart Shield.
>Dany dispatches Grey Worm with the command to find out who did this.
>Sir Barristan Selmy points out the very obvious fact that the
>Unsullied are Unsuited to perform this task, but Dany has nobody else.
>Her ragged and tiny khalasar had been sent outside the city to subdue
>the outlying areas and Brown Ben Plumm and his mercenary company
>Second Sons were guarding the south against Yunkish incursions.
>Daarion Naharis and his Stormcrows had been dispatched to attempt a
>negotiation with the Lamb Men (who it will be remembered spawned Mirri
>Maz Durr, who killed Khal Drogo and Dany�s son) and thereby provide
>food and a trade route for Mereen who lack both now that their main
>staple of trade, slavery, has been outlawed.
>After her entourage departs, Dany notes that she has not been
>attentive enough to her dragons, who are snappish and have grown lazy.
>She looks forward to the date soon in the future when they can bear
>her weight as they did Aegon the Conqueror. She then impatiently dons
>the cumbersome tokar of a Ghiscari noble and meets her court and those
>presented to her today. Brown Ben Plumm has pointed out �Man wants to
>be the king o� the rabbits, he best wear a pair of floppy ears.� She
>thinks portentously of her murdered brother�s son Aegon, who would
>have been a more suitable spouse for her rather than her brother
>Viserys.
I missed that line about Aegon. Not much else to say about it, I
guess. It didn't seem that significant at the time.
>Besides Barristan the Bold, the only member of Dany�s Queensguard, her
>court consists of Reznak mo Reznak (remind anyone of Moe Sizlak?) her
>oily seneschal and apparently a representative of everything douchy in
>Mereen, and Skahaz mo Kandaq, the exact opposite, an unsubtle shaven-
>headed angry fellow. His followers shaved their heads to reject the
>ancient Ghiscari customs. When Dany wants to increase the reward paid
>for information to find the murderous Harpy�s Sons, Shavepate responds
>that a better strategy would be to yank a member of each royal family
>out and murder them for every man killed, which will stop the murders
>quickly. Reznak objects, wringing his hands for the hostility this
>will create. Dany despises him, but follows her original and surely
>doomed plan to pay more for nothing.
Why surely doomed? While Reznak seems somewhat disingenuous--"the
culprits will turn out to be low-born" or something, he says--the
Shapepate's plot will simply unite the strongest, wealthiest and
best-educated segment of the city against her. Not that they do not
already hate her, but the smart ones are watching and waiting and
providing little other than moral support to the "cause." It is not
even clear that this campaign against freedmen is anything other than
the actions of a small cadre of terrorists.
The purpose of such terror is to inspire retaliatory attacks in order
to further polarize the society. Surely giving them what they want is
a bad idea. Look at the history of Algeria's independence from
France. The downhill slide began when the FLN incorporated soldiers
who had been trained in exactly just such polarizing terror by the
blue-eyed wonderkind, the Grand Mufti of Palestine. The emotional
responses their outrageous attacks engendered tricked the pieds noir
into tearing their own society out by the roots. Both extremist
minorites murdered the majority center.
>She then meets with those who have issues to discuss in front of the
>court, which is dominated by her Unsullied bodyguards. The first envoy
>is Lord Ghael, a freed slave and representative of Cleon the Great of
>Astapor, who has been pressing for Dany�s hand in marriage to bond an
>alliance in war against the Yunkai, which Dany of course rejects,
>though she takes his offered slippers sewn with freshwater pearls. The
>next suitor is Hizdahr zo Loraq, who has acquired most of the slave
>fighting pits in the city and pleas for Dany to re-open them, which
>will ingratiate her with the public and generate impressive revenue.
>She notes that without his silly Ghiscari hair he might be hansome.
>She rejects his plea nonetheless.
The slippers did not fit. Naturally. And Cleon the Great is an
idiot, but that is another point. Hizdahr is more curious. He seems
to be only a skilled speculator, here. Does he have more real power
than he seems? Later he seems to be in the center of grand
machinations, but here, no.
Also, Dany seems overly fond of physical appearance. Daarion Naharis
and now Hizdahr zo Loraq.
>Her next meeting is with Grazdan zo Galare, a cousin of the Green
>Graces, whose counsel Dany had used and valued. The merchant wants
>recompense for the former slaves who were trained how to weave in his
>house and now had set up their own company and were undercutting him.
>He has forgotten the name of the old slave who taught them because he
>has owned so many. Dany orders that the merchant pay for a fine new
>loom for them as recompense for forgetting his slave�s name.
This was supposedly representative of many of the petitioners who
sought recompense for one thing or another. Not the result, I mean,
which is probably exceptional, but the fact that there were many such
petitioners.
>Several other such suitors follow, which Dany rules on, appearing to
>please nobody with her decisions. She also shows a disturbing tendency
>to think of other things and not pay terribly close attention to the
>words of those presenting to her. She then is provided a few gifts
>from grateful locals, a prized fish and suit of fine armor, which she
>rewards the presenters. Lastly there are three and twenty farmers who
>had come to make claims for lost livestock, claiming the dragons had
>eaten them. Without the ability to determine if the burned bones were
>simply cooked or dragon-fired, Dany agrees to pay their claims.
>But one lonely and sad claimant remains. He bears a sack of burnt
>bones but seems hesitant to present them. When Reznak imperiously
>demands that he will be paid, Barristan shuts him up, pointing out
>that the blackened bones are no sheep. No, Dany thinks, those are the
>bones of a child.
It did seem utterly black when I read that line so many years ago, and
the following chapters do not help much. It will be a while before
Dany figures out what to do.
>=========
>
>A little bit longer than Tyrion, but still relatively quick. It does
>move things along and lets us know what is going on with Dany while
>also providing us insight that all is not necessarily good about
>having dragons as children.
>
>No real gore except for the dead Unsullied, who is only referenced as
>having goat testicles shoved down his throat as the Astapori had left
>him nothing, not root nor stem. But this is only secondhand.
>
>No sex at all, unusual in a Dany chapter. I bet when HBO gets ahold of
>it she will be up to some Sapphic love prior to meeting the court or
>we�ll at least get a nice nude scene of her putting on the tokar.
The chapter will not have its own episode. It will have to share the
screen with other, more pornographic adventures.
>No laughs either, a relatively purposeful chapter without much in the
>way of detour.
>
>Probably not a lot new to talk about other than the now purposeful
>mention of Rhaegar�s son. Again Dany shows a disturbing tendency not
>to do what needs doing. She wavers from a hard-core surprise decision-
>maker (usually a rash one) to a waffling liberal. I know this is
>probably to make it understood that ruling is difficult, and all her
>troubles her will make her a great Queen of Westeros in approximately
>2025, but she doesn�t appear to have retained much of the maturity she
>appeared to gain in her previous route of the slave cities.
>
>Barristan once again strikes me as a very astute man. He must have
>been a great advisor to Robert, who unfortunately must never have
>listened to him. I also like the Shavepate instantly while despising
>Reznak and pretty much all the oily Ghiscari, surely by Martin�s
>intention. But I truly fail to see any reason for Dany to stay here.
>Didn�t understand it when she stopped her rampage two books ago and
>don�t now.
It was because of Astapor and her foolish, naiive failure there. She
feels guilty for having imposed the likes of Cleon the Butcher on them
and will not leave Mereen until she feels it is secure. So stop
demanding a timeline for withdrawal. Don't you support our troops?
--
My years on the mudpit that is Usnenet have taught me one important thing: three Creation Scientists can have a serious conversation, if two of them are sock puppets.
Ben
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:07:20 -0700 (PDT), Ben <frodolives11...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >This is a Chapter of the Week for George R. R. Martin's, _A Dance With
> >Dragons_
> >This chapter was originally posted online at GRRM's site very soon
> >after the Tyrion chapter, IMHO the best of the three that I remember
> >being leaked out oh so many years ago.
>
> Did he change it at some point? Maybe my understanding of it changed.
>
To be honest the only part I remembered well was the hook ending,
which was retained. I really don't think any of the three chapters I
remember reading were altered in any significant fashion. The Theon
excerpt "Reek" was taken rather out of context, but I don't believe
that was ever released as a whole chapter prior to the book.
>
> >The dead Unsullied took the name Stalwart Shield which seems a
> >relatively proud name. It is revealed that most of the Unsullied have
> >assumed such monikers, following the lead of their leader Grey Worm
> >(though apparently not with his humility). He apparently had taken to
> >paying whores in brothels to lie with him and hold him (lacking the
> >equipment to do much of anything else with them) and was ambushed
> >there.
>
> Should have gotten himself a puppy. The names also seem to indicate
> their tie to Danaerys herself. This man was HER Stalwart Shield.
>
In this case it certainly meant that, but it seems that the Unsullied
took names somewhat at random, some their former names, some monikers,
some appelations of sorts. I don't recall any being named in the text
with "real" names, all the ones we have seen named are clearly
monikers.
> >After her entourage departs, Dany notes that she has not been
> >attentive enough to her dragons, who are snappish and have grown lazy.
> >She looks forward to the date soon in the future when they can bear
> >her weight as they did Aegon the Conqueror. She then impatiently dons
> >the cumbersome tokar of a Ghiscari noble and meets her court and those
> >presented to her today. Brown Ben Plumm has pointed out Man wants to
> >be the king o the rabbits, he best wear a pair of floppy ears. She
> >thinks portentously of her murdered brother s son Aegon, who would
> >have been a more suitable spouse for her rather than her brother
> >Viserys.
>
> I missed that line about Aegon. Not much else to say about it, I
> guess. It didn't seem that significant at the time.
>
It certainly didn't, and I certainly missed it completely the first
time around. Upon the re-read for CHOW it jumped out. There are a few
other such references before we find out about Giff Jr.
> >Besides Barristan the Bold, the only member of Dany s Queensguard, her
> >court consists of Reznak mo Reznak (remind anyone of Moe Sizlak?) her
> >oily seneschal and apparently a representative of everything douchy in
> >Mereen, and Skahaz mo Kandaq, the exact opposite, an unsubtle shaven-
> >headed angry fellow. His followers shaved their heads to reject the
> >ancient Ghiscari customs. When Dany wants to increase the reward paid
> >for information to find the murderous Harpy s Sons, Shavepate responds
> >that a better strategy would be to yank a member of each royal family
> >out and murder them for every man killed, which will stop the murders
> >quickly. Reznak objects, wringing his hands for the hostility this
> >will create. Dany despises him, but follows her original and surely
> >doomed plan to pay more for nothing.
>
> Why surely doomed? While Reznak seems somewhat disingenuous--"the
> culprits will turn out to be low-born" or something, he says--the
> Shapepate's plot will simply unite the strongest, wealthiest and
> best-educated segment of the city against her. Not that they do not
> already hate her, but the smart ones are watching and waiting and
> providing little other than moral support to the "cause." It is not
> even clear that this campaign against freedmen is anything other than
> the actions of a small cadre of terrorists.
>
I don't agree with this. It definitely seems like the overwhelming
majority of the nobility are either secretly funding the Sons of the
Harpy or waiting to join in open rebellion. I think it is pretty clear
that they are supported by almost everyone who has any power,
including almost certainly Reznak himself. The only Ghiscari who have
devoted themselves to Dany are the freedmen (who don't seem to have
any real power at all) and the Shavepates people, who are forced to
wear masks so their families aren't identified and murdered. This is
not in any sense a remotely affiliative people. They are completely
oppressed and just waiting until their turn comes, akin to the Iraqis
in our world.
> The purpose of such terror is to inspire retaliatory attacks in order
> to further polarize the society. Surely giving them what they want is
> a bad idea. Look at the history of Algeria's independence from
> France. The downhill slide began when the FLN incorporated soldiers
> who had been trained in exactly just such polarizing terror by the
> blue-eyed wonderkind, the Grand Mufti of Palestine. The emotional
> responses their outrageous attacks engendered tricked the pieds noir
> into tearing their own society out by the roots. Both extremist
> minorites murdered the majority center.
>
But the majority in this case are completely powerless. Dany has her
power center and her very loose support for the poor, while anyone
with any signficant authority in Mereen is her outright enemy. We do
not meet anyone in Mereen who is not either a mercenary or rebellious
other than the Shavepate. The Green Grace doesn't really count as she
appears a figurehead religious leader at best with no followers.
I don't disagree that the Shavepate's plan would not endear her to the
people, but it would stop the murders, and it would establish her as
the power player in a language that appears to be the only one that
these people appear to understand. Diplomacy, generosity, and outright
bribes certainly didn't, and wouldn't work. A people that are opposed
to the very nature of their oppressors who have had their power taken
away from them will never bow to the new power unless they are whipped
into obedience. It was never an option for Dany to take over Mereen as
their benevolent ruler. She either needed to cede power and leave the
actual ruling of the city to the nobles or she needed to mercilessly
step on them. There was no middle ground.
> >She then meets with those who have issues to discuss in front of the
> >court, which is dominated by her Unsullied bodyguards. The first envoy
> >is Lord Ghael, a freed slave and representative of Cleon the Great of
> >Astapor, who has been pressing for Dany s hand in marriage to bond an
> >alliance in war against the Yunkai, which Dany of course rejects,
> >though she takes his offered slippers sewn with freshwater pearls. The
> >next suitor is Hizdahr zo Loraq, who has acquired most of the slave
> >fighting pits in the city and pleas for Dany to re-open them, which
> >will ingratiate her with the public and generate impressive revenue.
> >She notes that without his silly Ghiscari hair he might be hansome.
> >She rejects his plea nonetheless.
>
> The slippers did not fit. Naturally. And Cleon the Great is an
> idiot, but that is another point. Hizdahr is more curious. He seems
> to be only a skilled speculator, here. Does he have more real power
> than he seems? Later he seems to be in the center of grand
> machinations, but here, no.
>
But she did like the slippers. Hizdahr at this point seems like little
more than a ruthless merchant prince willing to do whatever needs
doing to gain power in the new order. Truthfully he might never be
more than that.
> Also, Dany seems overly fond of physical appearance. Daarion Naharis
> and now Hizdahr zo Loraq.
>
Well, she is a very young woman still, and quite beautiful herself. It
seems easy to believe that physical appearance would still be a high
priority to her.
> >Her next meeting is with Grazdan zo Galare, a cousin of the Green
> >Graces, whose counsel Dany had used and valued. The merchant wants
> >recompense for the former slaves who were trained how to weave in his
> >house and now had set up their own company and were undercutting him.
> >He has forgotten the name of the old slave who taught them because he
> >has owned so many. Dany orders that the merchant pay for a fine new
> >loom for them as recompense for forgetting his slave s name.
>
> This was supposedly representative of many of the petitioners who
> sought recompense for one thing or another. Not the result, I mean,
> which is probably exceptional, but the fact that there were many such
> petitioners.
>
And to show that Dany was merciful to the former slaves and did not
favor the slave owners, which we already knew. This to be honest is
probably the main reason that she never could have successfully ruled
Mereen. A city whose entire economy was based on slavery would take
many many years to reverse itself, and we know Dany won't be there
that long.
> >Several other such suitors follow, which Dany rules on, appearing to
> >please nobody with her decisions. She also shows a disturbing tendency
> >to think of other things and not pay terribly close attention to the
> >words of those presenting to her. She then is provided a few gifts
> >from grateful locals, a prized fish and suit of fine armor, which she
> >rewards the presenters. Lastly there are three and twenty farmers who
> >had come to make claims for lost livestock, claiming the dragons had
> >eaten them. Without the ability to determine if the burned bones were
> >simply cooked or dragon-fired, Dany agrees to pay their claims.
> >But one lonely and sad claimant remains. He bears a sack of burnt
> >bones but seems hesitant to present them. When Reznak imperiously
> >demands that he will be paid, Barristan shuts him up, pointing out
> >that the blackened bones are no sheep. No, Dany thinks, those are the
> >bones of a child.
>
> It did seem utterly black when I read that line so many years ago, and
> the following chapters do not help much. It will be a while before
> Dany figures out what to do.
>
It's a great portent to future events in the book, and if this same
dilemna did not continue for half the book, it would have worked very
well as the central point of the Dany plotline.
> >=========
>
> >No sex at all, unusual in a Dany chapter. I bet when HBO gets ahold of
> >it she will be up to some Sapphic love prior to meeting the court or
> >we ll at least get a nice nude scene of her putting on the tokar.
>
> The chapter will not have its own episode. It will have to share the
> screen with other, more pornographic adventures.
>
But the segue to this scene (which is too important to not get solid
screen time) will undoubtedly have some soft-core in it. Remember that
this chapter brings us back to Dany after a whole book without her.
>
> >Barristan once again strikes me as a very astute man. He must have
> >been a great advisor to Robert, who unfortunately must never have
> >listened to him. I also like the Shavepate instantly while despising
> >Reznak and pretty much all the oily Ghiscari, surely by Martin s
> >intention. But I truly fail to see any reason for Dany to stay here.
> >Didn t understand it when she stopped her rampage two books ago and
> >don t now.
>
> It was because of Astapor and her foolish, naiive failure there. She
> feels guilty for having imposed the likes of Cleon the Butcher on them
> and will not leave Mereen until she feels it is secure. So stop
> demanding a timeline for withdrawal. Don't you support our troops?
>
But it will NEVER be secure. Again I point to the US incursions which
we still have not left behind and spent literally trillions of dollars
on while our economy goes straight to hell. The minute our soldiers
leave Afghanistan, fucking lunatic bearded zealots will take back
over. Iraq might last a little bit longer because there are some semi-
civilized people there, but they will quickly fall when we stop
backing them. Either we continue to pour money into a country without
huge natural wealth of their own or we abandon them to become almost
certainly the training ground for the next terrorist attack on US
soil. We are fucked either way, just like Dany.
Ben
John Vreeland
Shavepate's people shave their heads. It's a difficult thing to hide
unless you are going to wear a mask 24/7 and never go home.
>This is
>not in any sense a remotely affiliative people. They are completely
>oppressed and just waiting until their turn comes, akin to the Iraqis
>in our world.
Which Iraqis? The Arabs? Are you serious? Some of them entertained
fantasies of returning to power for a while but for almost all of them
realiity has now sunk in. I believe they are now the loudest voice
calling for the US to remain in order to guarantee their safety.
>> The purpose of such terror is to inspire retaliatory attacks in order
>> to further polarize the society. Surely giving them what they want is
>> a bad idea. Look at the history of Algeria's independence from
>> France. The downhill slide began when the FLN incorporated soldiers
>> who had been trained in exactly just such polarizing terror by the
>> blue-eyed wonderkind, the Grand Mufti of Palestine. The emotional
>> responses their outrageous attacks engendered tricked the pieds noir
>> into tearing their own society out by the roots. Both extremist
>> minorites murdered the majority center.
>>
>But the majority in this case are completely powerless. Dany has her
>power center and her very loose support for the poor, while anyone
>with any signficant authority in Mereen is her outright enemy. We do
>not meet anyone in Mereen who is not either a mercenary or rebellious
>other than the Shavepate. The Green Grace doesn't really count as she
>appears a figurehead religious leader at best with no followers.
>
>I don't disagree that the Shavepate's plan would not endear her to the
>people, but it would stop the murders, and it would establish her as
>the power player in a language that appears to be the only one that
>these people appear to understand. Diplomacy, generosity, and outright
>bribes certainly didn't, and wouldn't work.
>A people that are opposed
>to the very nature of their oppressors who have had their power taken
>away from them will never bow to the new power unless they are whipped
>into obedience.
I would suggest that the retaliatory atrocities that Dany committed
when she seized the city should have been enough whipping for a wise
man. Why would intelligent families invite anything further? This
makes me suspect even more that the ringleaders are very small in
number and are actively trying to destabilize Dany's government.
>It was never an option for Dany to take over Mereen as
>their benevolent ruler. She either needed to cede power and leave the
>actual ruling of the city to the nobles or she needed to mercilessly
>step on them. There was no middle ground.
It seems the most powerful families have been all but wiped out,
though they retain much of their possessions.
I disagree. The only difference between slave economies and non-slave
economies is that freedmen are entitled not to be beaten, and are free
to quit their job and are free to be fired. Their salary is more
dependant on the labor supply, which right now is in a surplus.
I doubt they will follow the same split-volume formula for seasons
four and five that Martin used. He was forced into that situation
when book four turned out to be too bloody big. He should have
re-written it but, ah, never mind. Not going there.
>>
>> >Barristan once again strikes me as a very astute man. He must have
>> >been a great advisor to Robert, who unfortunately must never have
>> >listened to him. I also like the Shavepate instantly while despising
>> >Reznak and pretty much all the oily Ghiscari, surely by Martin s
>> >intention. But I truly fail to see any reason for Dany to stay here.
>> >Didn t understand it when she stopped her rampage two books ago and
>> >don t now.
>>
>> It was because of Astapor and her foolish, naiive failure there. She
>> feels guilty for having imposed the likes of Cleon the Butcher on them
>> and will not leave Mereen until she feels it is secure. So stop
>> demanding a timeline for withdrawal. Don't you support our troops?
>>
>But it will NEVER be secure. Again I point to the US incursions which
>we still have not left behind and spent literally trillions of dollars
>on while our economy goes straight to hell. The minute our soldiers
>leave Afghanistan, fucking lunatic bearded zealots will take back
>over. Iraq might last a little bit longer because there are some semi-
>civilized people there, but they will quickly fall when we stop
>backing them.
I have an Iraqi friend who will fantasize about slapping you in the
face with his shoes over that comment. But he also does not want the
US to leave just yet. And I have a Kurdish friend who hopes the south
collapses so his country can formally secede.
>Either we continue to pour money into a country without
>huge natural wealth of their own or we abandon them to become almost
>certainly the training ground for the next terrorist attack on US
>soil. We are fucked either way, just like Dany.
I don't understand. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have enormous natural
wealth. Afghanistan seems to have more. They both also have a
surfeit of ignorance, though, again, Afghanistan has more.
Will in New Haven
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 04:10:24 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> Which Iraqis? The Arabs? Are you serious? Some of them entertained
> fantasies of returning to power for a while but for almost all of them
> realiity has now sunk in. I believe they are now the loudest voice
> calling for the US to remain in order to guarantee their safe
I'm going to comment on this thread when I have more time. However, do
you mean _Sunnis_ when you say "Arabs" here? I think most of the
Shiites in Iraq are Arabs also; they are right across the strait from
Arabistan in Iran. I don't think they are mostly Persian.
Of course, I think you are correct about the Sunnis. They made a lot
of enemies when they were on top.
--
Will in New Haven
Ben
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 04:10:24 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> Shavepate's people shave their heads. It's a difficult thing to hide
> unless you are going to wear a mask 24/7 and never go home.
>
Agreed. In any case this group hasn't shown they have much ability to
affect what is going on in Mereen, other than to serve as bullyboys
for Dany.
> >This is
> >not in any sense a remotely affiliative people. They are completely
> >oppressed and just waiting until their turn comes, akin to the Iraqis
> >in our world.
>
> Which Iraqis? The Arabs? Are you serious? Some of them entertained
> fantasies of returning to power for a while but for almost all of them
> realiity has now sunk in. I believe they are now the loudest voice
> calling for the US to remain in order to guarantee their safety.
>
I think we may have a misunderstanding. I am not talking about the
actual people on the street. In this part of the world, what the
"people" want really doesn't matter very much. Undoubtedly the
civilians are MUCH safer with our troops on the ground in Iraq. But
the power players, the wealthy Iraqis, just as the wealthy Ghiscari,
they have been supplanted and removed from their ability to rule their
roosts. They are still there with very few exceptions, just as with
Iraq, and they will quickly return to power when the foreign power
leaves. The parallel is pretty strong.
>
> >It was never an option for Dany to take over Mereen as
> >their benevolent ruler. She either needed to cede power and leave the
> >actual ruling of the city to the nobles or she needed to mercilessly
> >step on them. There was no middle ground.
>
> It seems the most powerful families have been all but wiped out,
> though they retain much of their possessions.
>
I very much disagree with this. Dany's court is representative of the
former noble families, all of whom still have their pyramids and
presumably plenty of followers. Dany's followers are an incredibly
small number of the population. It certainly seems that most Mereenese
are actively disloyal or willing to bow their heads and take of her
generosity. In fact in several cases in the book it is pointed out
that the noble families are still very much out there and just waiting
for a weakness.
>
> >And to show that Dany was merciful to the former slaves and did not
> >favor the slave owners, which we already knew. This to be honest is
> >probably the main reason that she never could have successfully ruled
> >Mereen. A city whose entire economy was based on slavery would take
> >many many years to reverse itself, and we know Dany won't be there
> >that long.
>
> I disagree. The only difference between slave economies and non-slave
> economies is that freedmen are entitled not to be beaten, and are free
> to quit their job and are free to be fired. Their salary is more
> dependant on the labor supply, which right now is in a surplus.
>
No, you misunderstand. Mereen is not a slave-based economy. It is an
economy OF slavery, similar to the islands of Salvadore, Haiti, and
what is now the Dominican Republic, not to mention Cuba, during the
18th century. Their entire economy consists of the exchange of slaves.
This is their import and export. History has shown that it takes
dramatic reversal to change an economy of slavery into an economy of
goods, and in nearly every case this results in worse conditions for
the freedmen than they had during slavery (excepting of course the
belonging to someone else thing).
Dany points out that Mereen has nothing of quality to export, and that
without the fighting pits and the buying and selling of slaves it is a
pitiful backwater. She certainly seems to want to change that, but
without the support of basically anyone, this is more than anybody
could possibly do.
>
> >But the segue to this scene (which is too important to not get solid
> >screen time) will undoubtedly have some soft-core in it. Remember that
> >this chapter brings us back to Dany after a whole book without her.
>
> I doubt they will follow the same split-volume formula for seasons
> four and five that Martin used. He was forced into that situation
> when book four turned out to be too bloody big. He should have
> re-written it but, ah, never mind. Not going there.
>
Agreed on all counts. But I will put a fiver on Dany being naked
before she goes to court in the HBO portrayal of this chapter.
>
>
> >But it will NEVER be secure. Again I point to the US incursions which
> >we still have not left behind and spent literally trillions of dollars
> >on while our economy goes straight to hell. The minute our soldiers
> >leave Afghanistan, fucking lunatic bearded zealots will take back
> >over. Iraq might last a little bit longer because there are some semi-
> >civilized people there, but they will quickly fall when we stop
> >backing them.
>
> I have an Iraqi friend who will fantasize about slapping you in the
> face with his shoes over that comment. But he also does not want the
> US to leave just yet. And I have a Kurdish friend who hopes the south
> collapses so his country can formally secede.
>
I also have an ex-Iraqi friend who must understand things there better
than your friend does. This is a part of the world where the strong
rule, where the concept of democracy is very foreign. The ONLY reason
Saddam Hussein was in charge is because we put him there. He was
considered a moderating influence on the zealots in both Iraq and
Iran. Mass-murderer? Sure, but that is considered part of rulership in
that part of the world. 3000 years of history don't lie. And I did go
to school with a couple of Kurds who dreamed of independence. This
only happens with the support of some other strong external power. Too
little wealth and power lies in the hands of the Kurds themselves. If
they do secede somebody will restrain them forcefully and the cycle
will repeat.
> >Either we continue to pour money into a country without
> >huge natural wealth of their own or we abandon them to become almost
> >certainly the training ground for the next terrorist attack on US
> >soil. We are fucked either way, just like Dany.
>
> I don't understand. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have enormous natural
> wealth. Afghanistan seems to have more. They both also have a
> surfeit of ignorance, though, again, Afghanistan has more.
>
I can't believe I typed the exact opposite of what I meant to say. I
meant that both Iraq and Afghanistan have huge natural wealth of their
own, all of which is untouched while we essentially pay US soldiers to
serve as their army and police force. But they will continue to fund
and develop anti-US forces, just as they have for decades. Our
invasion will only make this easier to recruit the ignorant, just as
they always have.
Ben
John Vreeland
The Iraqis tend to call them Arabs; I'm just following their cue. I
didn't know (or had forgotten--I haven't been to Iraq in this century)
there were significant Shiia Arabs there. Interesting. I wonder how
that came about, exactly.
John Vreeland
It did not happen in Astapor. In that case there was a specific
genocide against all the slavers. In Mereen it was not complete,
obviously.
>> >It was never an option for Dany to take over Mereen as
>> >their benevolent ruler. She either needed to cede power and leave the
>> >actual ruling of the city to the nobles or she needed to mercilessly
>> >step on them. There was no middle ground.
>>
>> It seems the most powerful families have been all but wiped out,
>> though they retain much of their possessions.
>>
>I very much disagree with this. Dany's court is representative of the
>former noble families, all of whom still have their pyramids and
>presumably plenty of followers. Dany's followers are an incredibly
>small number of the population. It certainly seems that most Mereenese
>are actively disloyal or willing to bow their heads and take of her
>generosity. In fact in several cases in the book it is pointed out
>that the noble families are still very much out there and just waiting
>for a weakness.
Perhaps so.
>> >And to show that Dany was merciful to the former slaves and did not
>> >favor the slave owners, which we already knew. This to be honest is
>> >probably the main reason that she never could have successfully ruled
>> >Mereen. A city whose entire economy was based on slavery would take
>> >many many years to reverse itself, and we know Dany won't be there
>> >that long.
>>
>> I disagree. The only difference between slave economies and non-slave
>> economies is that freedmen are entitled not to be beaten, and are free
>> to quit their job and are free to be fired. Their salary is more
>> dependant on the labor supply, which right now is in a surplus.
>>
>No, you misunderstand. Mereen is not a slave-based economy. It is an
>economy OF slavery, similar to the islands of Salvadore, Haiti, and
>what is now the Dominican Republic, not to mention Cuba, during the
>18th century. Their entire economy consists of the exchange of slaves.
>This is their import and export. History has shown that it takes
>dramatic reversal to change an economy of slavery into an economy of
>goods, and in nearly every case this results in worse conditions for
>the freedmen than they had during slavery (excepting of course the
>belonging to someone else thing).
>
>Dany points out that Mereen has nothing of quality to export, and that
>without the fighting pits and the buying and selling of slaves it is a
>pitiful backwater. She certainly seems to want to change that, but
>without the support of basically anyone, this is more than anybody
>could possibly do.
True. Even if they had not destroyed their own means of production
they still relied on capital from the exchange of slaves. And it
seems that is all they ever relied upon; Martin went out of his way to
point that out.
>> >But the segue to this scene (which is too important to not get solid
>> >screen time) will undoubtedly have some soft-core in it. Remember that
>> >this chapter brings us back to Dany after a whole book without her.
>>
>> I doubt they will follow the same split-volume formula for seasons
>> four and five that Martin used. He was forced into that situation
>> when book four turned out to be too bloody big. He should have
>> re-written it but, ah, never mind. Not going there.
>>
>Agreed on all counts. But I will put a fiver on Dany being naked
>before she goes to court in the HBO portrayal of this chapter.
Not taking that bet.
>> >But it will NEVER be secure. Again I point to the US incursions which
>> >we still have not left behind and spent literally trillions of dollars
>> >on while our economy goes straight to hell. The minute our soldiers
>> >leave Afghanistan, fucking lunatic bearded zealots will take back
>> >over. Iraq might last a little bit longer because there are some semi-
>> >civilized people there, but they will quickly fall when we stop
>> >backing them.
>>
>> I have an Iraqi friend who will fantasize about slapping you in the
>> face with his shoes over that comment. But he also does not want the
>> US to leave just yet. And I have a Kurdish friend who hopes the south
>> collapses so his country can formally secede.
>I also have an ex-Iraqi friend who must understand things there better
>than your friend does. This is a part of the world where the strong
>rule, where the concept of democracy is very foreign. The ONLY reason
>Saddam Hussein was in charge is because we put him there. He was
>considered a moderating influence on the zealots in both Iraq and
>Iran. Mass-murderer? Sure, but that is considered part of rulership in
>that part of the world. 3000 years of history don't lie. And I did go
>to school with a couple of Kurds who dreamed of independence. This
>only happens with the support of some other strong external power. Too
>little wealth and power lies in the hands of the Kurds themselves. If
>they do secede somebody will restrain them forcefully and the cycle
>will repeat.
I am afraid that I agree with you. I hope that the Iraqis have
learned some lessons, though. 3000 years of history is irrelevant
when you finally learn your lessons. The people who founded the USA
came from a country that a little over seven hundred years earlier had
been founded in conquest and genocide. Let's hope it does not take
the Iraqis as long.
Iraqi kurdistan is already effectively autonomous, but yes, if we had
not done something about it the Turks would have been in there.
>> >Either we continue to pour money into a country without
>> >huge natural wealth of their own or we abandon them to become almost
>> >certainly the training ground for the next terrorist attack on US
>> >soil. We are fucked either way, just like Dany.
>>
>> I don't understand. Both Iraq and Afghanistan have enormous natural
>> wealth. Afghanistan seems to have more. They both also have a
>> surfeit of ignorance, though, again, Afghanistan has more.
>>
>I can't believe I typed the exact opposite of what I meant to say. I
>meant that both Iraq and Afghanistan have huge natural wealth of their
>own, all of which is untouched while we essentially pay US soldiers to
>serve as their army and police force. But they will continue to fund
>and develop anti-US forces, just as they have for decades. Our
>invasion will only make this easier to recruit the ignorant, just as
>they always have.
>
>Ben
Will in New Haven
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:35:33 -0700 (PDT), Will in New Haven
>
>
>
> <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 10, 7:09 pm, John Vreeland <john.vreel...@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 04:10:24 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> >> Which Iraqis? The Arabs? Are you serious? Some of them entertained
> >> fantasies of returning to power for a while but for almost all of them
> >> realiity has now sunk in. I believe they are now the loudest voice
> >> calling for the US to remain in order to guarantee their safe
>
> >I'm going to comment on this thread when I have more time. However, do
> >you mean _Sunnis_ when you say "Arabs" here? I think most of the
> >Shiites in Iraq are Arabs also; they are right across the strait from
> >Arabistan in Iran. I don't think they are mostly Persian.
>
> >Of course, I think you are correct about the Sunnis. They made a lot
> >of enemies when they were on top.
>
> The Iraqis tend to call them Arabs; I'm just following their cue. I
> didn't know (or had forgotten--I haven't been to Iraq in this century)
> there were significant Shiia Arabs there. Interesting. I wonder how
> that came about, exactly.
I think it was during the first expansion out of the penninsula. When
the people spreading the religion were mostly Arabs. They occupied
much of Iraq and the language of the country became Arabic, which
didn't happen instantly, even though most of the population was still
whatever you call the people who had occupied the area for centuries.
Some of the Arabic-speaking people occupied part of Iran, hence
"Arabistan," and there was a lot of cross-water interchange once that
part of Iraq became Shiite. I doubt that many ethnic Persians ever
settled in Iraq. The Shiites there are the same Arab/original occupant
mix but they have a different religion. Person culture has undoubtedly
had a great impact there.
Chucky & Janica
wrote:
>Sorry for the slight delay in getting this out.
Sorry for the slight delay in reading it!
>A little bit longer than Tyrion, but still relatively quick. It does
>move things along and lets us know what is going on with Dany while
>also providing us insight that all is not necessarily good about
>having dragons as children.
I sort of like the way they've been handled so far.
>Probably not a lot new to talk about other than the now purposeful
>mention of Rhaegar’s son. Again Dany shows a disturbing tendency not
>to do what needs doing. She wavers from a hard-core surprise decision-
>maker (usually a rash one) to a waffling liberal. I know this is
>probably to make it understood that ruling is difficult, and all her
>troubles her will make her a great Queen of Westeros in approximately
>2025, but she doesn’t appear to have retained much of the maturity she
>appeared to gain in her previous route of the slave cities.
*nod*
It's a bit disconcerting. But she's gotten all motherly.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>Also, Dany seems overly fond of physical appearance. Daarion Naharis
>and now Hizdahr zo Loraq.
Well dude, she's what, seventeen or eighteen? And her first squeeze
was Drogo?
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>> I missed that line about Aegon. Not much else to say about it, I
>> guess. It didn't seem that significant at the time.
>
>It certainly didn't, and I certainly missed it completely the first
>time around. Upon the re-read for CHOW it jumped out. There are a few
>other such references before we find out about Giff Jr.
A very ... animated character.
Sorry. No, I had nothing more to add other than this right now. I'll
go.
C&J
Chucky & Janica
<john.v...@ieee.org> wrote:
>I doubt they will follow the same split-volume formula for seasons
>four and five that Martin used. He was forced into that situation
>when book four turned out to be too bloody big. He should have
>re-written it but, ah, never mind.
I think, considering what actually *happened* in the last couple of
books as opposed to a lot of the internalising that went on, they're
going to be easy enough to turn into a single action-packed series.
C&J