Repost: Chapter of the Week - AGoT: Eddard I
Ben
Eddard I
King Robert's small army of 300 plus arrives at Winterfell, apparently
just an escort party. We are introduced to golden haired Jaime
Lannister, the "burned face" Sandor Clegane as well as "the Imp"
Tyrion Lannister. With them we are introduced for the first time to
King Robert, who Eddard does not recognize because he has gotten so
fat, turned from "muscled like a maiden's fantasy" to a "girth to
match his height" of six and a half feet (now that's fat!). Robert is
clearly very pleased to see Ned, though Ned is already discomfited at
the visit. Robert kisses Catelyn with joy, while Ned is his usual
formal self in greeting Queen Cersei. Immediately Robert asks to visit
the crypt and pay respect. Ned is very pleased that he remembers
"her".
While the queen is escorted into Winterfell by her twin brother Jaime,
Ned and Robert head underground. Robert indicates that the Northlands
are huge and unpopulated, with hardly an inn, and complains further
about snow as if it is something civilized people should not have to
put up with. Ned returns unflappably that "the Starks endure, as they
always have". The King calls for Ned to come south where the sun is
hot and the women are barely dressed.
The crypts are ancient, from the time when the Starks were true Kings
in the North and bowed to no man, before the Dragonlords came. At the
end of the row are the tombs of Ned's father Lord Rickard (a man Ned
apparently takes after, austere and dignified) and his elder brother
Brandon (strangled at 20 by the Mad King Aerys Targaryen right before
his wedding to Catelyn Tully of Riverrun). Lyanna, Ned's sister,
occupies the last tomb, a girl of sixteen who Eddard have loved dearly
and Robert had loved even more. Ned remembers her last words "Promise
me, Ned, promise me!" as she died from fever and the "little
Crannogman Howland Reed" took her hand from his.
Robert recalls he "vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her" and
Ned replies that he did. After cursing his wife briefly, Robert
reveals to Ned that Jon Arryn was healthy as could be, then a
fortnight later died from some sickness, leaving his wife, Catelyn's
sister Lysa Tully, mad with grief. She has taken her sickly son to the
eyrie to be "raised by women". Ned offers to take him as ward at
Winterfell, but Robert replies that he could not offend Tywin
Lannister (Cersei's father) who had offed to take him before Lysa ran
off with him. Robert also reveals that the boy will not be Warden of
the East, the traditional title of the Arryns, until he comes of age.
Robert finally gets the real reason for the visit after dodging the
issue of the Wall, apparently of some concern according to Ned's
brother Benjen. He needs someone to replace Jon Arryn as Hand of the
King, the second most powerful position in the kingdom, and an honor
that is "the last thing that (Ned) wants". He adds to the offer the
betrothal of his son and heir to Ned's daughter Sansa, joining their
houses as they always should have been. Ned considers all of this with
some dread, closing with "the eyes of the dead are watching, and
winter is coming" an ominous phrase.
Points for discussion:
Robert gains 8 stone, which makes him probably about 350 pounds. I
feel bad for his horse...
The spirits of the old Kings were kept in their crypts by iron swords,
but the oldest ones had rusted away to red spots, leaving Ned to fear
their spirits were loose in Winterfell. He doesn't seem the type to
fear old wives' tales...
Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses. The roses make sense to
cover the scent of disease, but why blood? Was she being bled? Or was
she bleeding for some other reason?
Winterfell is indeed quite huge as Robert says. Obviously less
populated than the temperate south, but how many folk live there, and
how do the Starks keep track of them? Or do they?
The original CHOW points out the "wounds that never heal" that Ned
refers to in the fostering of Robert Arryn, referring to Ned's
distaste for Tywin Lannister. Knowing what we know now, what beef does
Ned have in particular with Tywin? The way he handled the rebellion
(via Gregor Clegane, baby-killing, etc.)? Seems a little odd to be a
"wound that never heals" which sounds a lot more personal...
Again leaping forward, is this offer the ass-raping it turns out to be
right from the start, or does it all go wrong? Robert clearly knows
that Ned has no interest in going South, and that it will be very
dangerous for him, yet his selfishness (knowing that Ned would be a
better King than he would) puts the whole Stark clan in danger just so
he can enjoy his whoring and drinking? From this point onward, my
opinion of Robert was that he was a selfish prick, and nothing I read
later changed my mind...
I'll dodge the "o-meters" for this one as there really wasn't any sex
or combat (rather tame re-telling of Robert's battle with Rhaegar),
and Robert's attempts at humor were not only ill-timed, but also not
funny. Neither of these characters ever really is funny, which is a
quality you might like in a King, I think...
Titled the damn thing right this time. I'll learn.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> Original CHOW done by someone unfamiliar to me (Trade Surplus?) under:
Ah, Trade "Eoghan Scully" Surplus was a legend. Don't know what
happened to him.
> Ned remembers her last words "Promise
> me, Ned, promise me!" as she died from fever and the "little
> Crannogman Howland Reed" took her hand from his.
Fever, eh? It says that. I didn't recall. So many people have been
shouting about complications from childbirth. Always interesting to go
back to these things.
> Ned offers to take him as ward at
> Winterfell, but Robert replies that he could not offend Tywin
> Lannister (Cersei's father) who had offed to take him before Lysa ran
> off with him. Robert also reveals that the boy will not be Warden of
> the East, the traditional title of the Arryns, until he comes of age.
Also interesting, given Littlefinger's plans. And Tywin offered to
take him as a ward, go figure. Very clearly a pawn of some value, this
kid. An easy alternative to beseiging the Eyrie, of course, to just
have the kid as a hostage.
Although Tywin never really made further demands for him or ever
seemed to care about him again, did he?
> The spirits of the old Kings were kept in their crypts by iron swords,
> but the oldest ones had rusted away to red spots, leaving Ned to fear
> their spirits were loose in Winterfell. He doesn't seem the type to
> fear old wives' tales...
Sure, why not? He's clearly a believer in the Old Gods and believes
his brother when he says there's something wrong at the Wall. He was
raised by Old Nan too.
> Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses. The roses make sense to
> cover the scent of disease, but why blood? Was she being bled? Or was
> she bleeding for some other reason?
I think it was a new kind of potpourri.
> Winterfell is indeed quite huge as Robert says. Obviously less
> populated than the temperate south, but how many folk live there, and
> how do the Starks keep track of them? Or do they?
I imagine each Lordship has men at arms and maesters who keep an
informal census, if just to know how much tax should be paid and how
many strong lads they can call on if there's a battle.
> The original CHOW points out the "wounds that never heal" that Ned
> refers to in the fostering of Robert Arryn, referring to Ned's
> distaste for Tywin Lannister. Knowing what we know now, what beef does
> Ned have in particular with Tywin? The way he handled the rebellion
> (via Gregor Clegane, baby-killing, etc.)? Seems a little odd to be a
> "wound that never heals" which sounds a lot more personal...
Something to do with Cersei's marriage to Robert, being the price for
the Lannisters' help in the fight? Or something further back, to do
with their actual time in the Vale?
It just seems likely to me that Ned is saying that a kid being raised
as a ward can have issues if the ward isn't the right kind of guy.
Like Littlefinger got some issues as a lad, and had that whole ugly
scene with Brandon Stark as a result. And Ned knows Tywin is a
cold-eyed psychopath who should never be set to raise a kid,
especially one who would rise to such a powerful position.
Of course, that's why Ned offers to foster him personally. Because
Theon turned out fine.
> Again leaping forward, is this offer the ass-raping it turns out to be
> right from the start, or does it all go wrong? Robert clearly knows
> that Ned has no interest in going South, and that it will be very
> dangerous for him, yet his selfishness (knowing that Ned would be a
> better King than he would) puts the whole Stark clan in danger just so
> he can enjoy his whoring and drinking? From this point onward, my
> opinion of Robert was that he was a selfish prick, and nothing I read
> later changed my mind...
Nope, I agree with this, the whole idea to bring Ned to King's Landing
was a huge mistake. I mean, Robert was probably going to die anyway,
but this way it happened even easier, and he dragged the Starks down
as he went, and pretty much made sure that nobody had a chance to
maintain sanity.
> I'll dodge the "o-meters" for this one as there really wasn't any sex
> or combat (rather tame re-telling of Robert's battle with Rhaegar),
> and Robert's attempts at humor were not only ill-timed, but also not
> funny. Neither of these characters ever really is funny, which is a
> quality you might like in a King, I think...
Heh. The Funny King.
I don't know, but if the alternative was someone like Stannis...
> Titled the damn thing right this time. I'll learn.
Excelsior!
C&J
Ben
wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 01:19:04 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> > me, Ned, promise me!" as she died from fever and the "little
> > Crannogman Howland Reed" took her hand from his.
>
> Fever, eh? It says that. I didn't recall. So many people have been
> shouting about complications from childbirth. Always interesting to go
> back to these things.
>
not accurate, as in we the reader are led astray by reading people
remembering things that did not happen. Bush league writing and of
course not something that Martin would do, but in this case I think we
can be certain that fever was the cause. However that does not rule
out childbirth, which can incite nasty fever if infection results,
which in primitive birthing happens quite often.
> > Ned offers to take him as ward at
> > Winterfell, but Robert replies that he could not offend Tywin
> > Lannister (Cersei's father) who had offed to take him before Lysa ran
> > off with him. Robert also reveals that the boy will not be Warden of
> > the East, the traditional title of the Arryns, until he comes of age.
>
> Also interesting, given Littlefinger's plans. And Tywin offered to
> take him as a ward, go figure. Very clearly a pawn of some value, this
> kid. An easy alternative to beseiging the Eyrie, of course, to just
> have the kid as a hostage.
>
Seems like he had more value when Jon Arryn was still alive, maybe
something to hold over his head? That seems to be the most popular
usage of wards, including Theon in Winterfell, though assuming that
the Kraken gave a shit about Theon was a mistake.
> Although Tywin never really made further demands for him or ever
> seemed to care about him again, did he?
>
I would guess he never gave a damn about him ever, just one more tool
to keep people in order. Once Jon Arryn was murdered his value dropped
like the U.S. Stock Market.
> > The spirits of the old Kings were kept in their crypts by iron swords,
> > but the oldest ones had rusted away to red spots, leaving Ned to fear
> > their spirits were loose in Winterfell. He doesn't seem the type to
> > fear old wives' tales...
>
> Sure, why not? He's clearly a believer in the Old Gods and believes
> his brother when he says there's something wrong at the Wall. He was
> raised by Old Nan too.
>
Aye, there's the rub. Old Nan's tales turn out to be true! My thought
is, with all the "superstitions" of the North being based on truth,
perhaps there are wraith-Starks out there? No indication that would
ever be part of the story, but maybe we'll get a Conan-Belit rescue
from Lyanna-spirit? Then she can tell us her story herself! <g>
> > Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses. The roses make sense to
> > cover the scent of disease, but why blood? Was she being bled? Or was
> > she bleeding for some other reason?
>
> I think it was a new kind of potpourri.
>
No indication of leeching being used in the North, is there? Wouldn't
put it past the Maesters up there, who seem rather outback. But it
does hint at the childbirth issue, at least.
> > Winterfell is indeed quite huge as Robert says. Obviously less
> > populated than the temperate south, but how many folk live there, and
> > how do the Starks keep track of them? Or do they?
>
<This of course should have been the North, not just Winterfell, which
is probably huge, but not at all what I meant>
> I imagine each Lordship has men at arms and maesters who keep an
> informal census, if just to know how much tax should be paid and how
> many strong lads they can call on if there's a battle.
>
Considering the relatively small number of troops that Robb commands,
I just wonder if there are a lot more of them out there still.
Eventually the Northerners are going to be part of the effort against
the Others or against the Lannisters again, and I wonder whether they
will be substantial, or if we have seen the last of the Stark-
supporting armies. I suspect not.
> > The original CHOW points out the "wounds that never heal" that Ned
> > refers to in the fostering of Robert Arryn, referring to Ned's
> > distaste for Tywin Lannister. Knowing what we know now, what beef does
> > Ned have in particular with Tywin? The way he handled the rebellion
> > (via Gregor Clegane, baby-killing, etc.)? Seems a little odd to be a
> > "wound that never heals" which sounds a lot more personal...
>
> Something to do with Cersei's marriage to Robert, being the price for
> the Lannisters' help in the fight? Or something further back, to do
> with their actual time in the Vale?
>
Still seems a bit distant for such a vital comment.
> It just seems likely to me that Ned is saying that a kid being raised
> as a ward can have issues if the ward isn't the right kind of guy.
> Like Littlefinger got some issues as a lad, and had that whole ugly
> scene with Brandon Stark as a result. And Ned knows Tywin is a
> cold-eyed psychopath who should never be set to raise a kid,
> especially one who would rise to such a powerful position.
>
But Ned seems awfully personal here, and we know that he wasn't a
ward, and none of his own kids was, nor his brothers for that matter.
He clearly dislikes the whol Lannister clan and maybe that's enough,
but I just wonder whether there is something here more than we know.
> Of course, that's why Ned offers to foster him personally. Because
> Theon turned out fine.
>
Theon would have been a cockhead no matter where he ended up. You
can't shine shit.
> > Again leaping forward, is this offer the ass-raping it turns out to be
> > right from the start, or does it all go wrong? Robert clearly knows
> > that Ned has no interest in going South, and that it will be very
> > dangerous for him, yet his selfishness (knowing that Ned would be a
> > better King than he would) puts the whole Stark clan in danger just so
> > he can enjoy his whoring and drinking? From this point onward, my
> > opinion of Robert was that he was a selfish prick, and nothing I read
> > later changed my mind...
>
> Nope, I agree with this, the whole idea to bring Ned to King's Landing
> was a huge mistake. I mean, Robert was probably going to die anyway,
> but this way it happened even easier, and he dragged the Starks down
> as he went, and pretty much made sure that nobody had a chance to
> maintain sanity.
>
And with what potential benefit? Essentially Robert doomed Ned's who
family and way of life so he could get his willie wet. Hard to believe
these two could ever have been friends.
>
> > Titled the damn thing right this time. I'll learn.
>
> Excelsior!
>
Thanks, having fun with these though they are time-consuming. Wish I
would have been around the first time to argue and curse and talk
about personal attributes and all that. Nonetheless better late than
never!
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Ned remembers her last words "Promise
> > > me, Ned, promise me!" as she died from fever and the "little
> > > Crannogman Howland Reed" took her hand from his.
>
> > Fever, eh? It says that. I didn't recall. So many people have been
> > shouting about complications from childbirth. Always interesting to go
> > back to these things.
>
> One thing about the recollections is that I can't recall one what was
> not accurate, as in we the reader are led astray by reading people
> remembering things that did not happen. Bush league writing and of
> course not something that Martin would do, but in this case I think we
> can be certain that fever was the cause.
I'm really not sure about this. But like you say:
> However that does not rule
> out childbirth, which can incite nasty fever if infection results,
> which in primitive birthing happens quite often.
*nod*
> Aye, there's the rub. Old Nan's tales turn out to be true! My thought
> is, with all the "superstitions" of the North being based on truth,
> perhaps there are wraith-Starks out there? No indication that would
> ever be part of the story, but maybe we'll get a Conan-Belit rescue
> from Lyanna-spirit? Then she can tell us her story herself! <g>
Heh, interesting. Martin certainly doesn't balk at ghosts and spirits,
so there could be something to it - especially since the winter is
descending and the power of the supernatural is rising. And we haven't
been down in the crypts - or even around Winterfell very much -
lately. Who knows what's going on there?
> > > Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses. The roses make sense to
> > > cover the scent of disease, but why blood? Was she being bled? Or was
> > > she bleeding for some other reason?
>
> > I think it was a new kind of potpourri.
>
> No indication of leeching being used in the North, is there?
Well, Roose Bolton is a Northman. Of sorts.
> > I imagine each Lordship has men at arms and maesters who keep an
> > informal census, if just to know how much tax should be paid and how
> > many strong lads they can call on if there's a battle.
>
> Considering the relatively small number of troops that Robb commands,
> I just wonder if there are a lot more of them out there still.
Or if there just weren't that many to start with.
> Eventually the Northerners are going to be part of the effort against
> the Others or against the Lannisters again, and I wonder whether they
> will be substantial, or if we have seen the last of the Stark-
> supporting armies. I suspect not.
The Stark ghosts can march out of the cellars any time.
But I'm sure when the time comes to fight, there are still plenty of
people around. I mean, Winterfell wasn't exactly depopulated when
Theon took it, and that was a fairly militarily-heavy town. The little
villages will all have their share of fighting men. And women and
children, most likely, when the Others come.
> > It just seems likely to me that Ned is saying that a kid being raised
> > as a ward can have issues if the ward isn't the right kind of guy.
> > Like Littlefinger got some issues as a lad, and had that whole ugly
> > scene with Brandon Stark as a result. And Ned knows Tywin is a
> > cold-eyed psychopath who should never be set to raise a kid,
> > especially one who would rise to such a powerful position.
>
> But Ned seems awfully personal here, and we know that he wasn't a
> ward, and none of his own kids was, nor his brothers for that matter.
> He clearly dislikes the whol Lannister clan and maybe that's enough,
> but I just wonder whether there is something here more than we know.
I thought there were a bunch of Starks and Baratheons and Tullys in
the ward-circle back in the day? Robert at least reminisces about his
time in the Vale, pretty sure, and he speaks as though Ned had been
there too. Jon Arryn was like a father to at least one of them. Or
maybe to Catelyn ... I just don't remember. I may be getting it mixed
up with the Catelyn/Brandon and Lysa/Jon weddings.
Ned just doesn't like the way the Lannisters operate, I think. And
rightly so.
> > Of course, that's why Ned offers to foster him personally. Because
> > Theon turned out fine.
>
> Theon would have been a cockhead no matter where he ended up. You
> can't shine shit.
Truer words were rarely written, sir.
> > Nope, I agree with this, the whole idea to bring Ned to King's Landing
> > was a huge mistake. I mean, Robert was probably going to die anyway,
> > but this way it happened even easier, and he dragged the Starks down
> > as he went, and pretty much made sure that nobody had a chance to
> > maintain sanity.
>
> And with what potential benefit? Essentially Robert doomed Ned's who
> family and way of life so he could get his willie wet. Hard to believe
> these two could ever have been friends.
I think a deep-down part of Robert (the same part that laughed rather
than get angry when Ned said he was too fat for his armour) knew that
Ned would keep him honest, help him be a good king, and limit his
worst moves in a way none of the others would. He'd be the only decent
and honest voice on the Small Council.
Remember the saying, a bad King needs a good Hand, and vice versa. I
think Robert was acknowledging that he was a bad King, and although
there wasn't much he could do about his badness or his Kingship, he
wanted one of his old friends near to wipe up the vomit and hide the
bodies.
C&J
Ben
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:56:56 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> > is, with all the "superstitions" of the North being based on truth,
> > perhaps there are wraith-Starks out there? No indication that would
> > ever be part of the story, but maybe we'll get a Conan-Belit rescue
> > from Lyanna-spirit? Then she can tell us her story herself! <g>
>
> Heh, interesting. Martin certainly doesn't balk at ghosts and spirits,
> so there could be something to it - especially since the winter is
> descending and the power of the supernatural is rising. And we haven't
> been down in the crypts - or even around Winterfell very much -
> lately. Who knows what's going on there?
>
off with the Others! Though I imagine with their rusty swords they
might prove handy, like the ghost army from Return of the King.
Anybody else think that was something of a deviation from the books? I
don't remember the spirits being the deciding factor in the battle for
Minas Tirith, but it's also been a long time since I read LOTR...
>
> > No indication of leeching being used in the North, is there?
>
> Well, Roose Bolton is a Northman. Of sorts.
>
Yeah, a very creepy Northman, flaying and leeching and all that. But I
don't think Roose was exactly a standard Northman. Love him as a
character, though. Very Martin to make this guy essentially a hero. A
very creepy scary hero.
>
> > Considering the relatively small number of troops that Robb commands,
> > I just wonder if there are a lot more of them out there still.
>
> Or if there just weren't that many to start with.
>
That seems to be the case, but I wonder if there are lots more still
out there. Seems like most escaped at the Twins, besides the captains
anyway.
> > Eventually the Northerners are going to be part of the effort against
> > the Others or against the Lannisters again, and I wonder whether they
> > will be substantial, or if we have seen the last of the Stark-
> > supporting armies. I suspect not.
>
> The Stark ghosts can march out of the cellars any time.
>
See the above for that horrifying concept.
> But I'm sure when the time comes to fight, there are still plenty of
> people around. I mean, Winterfell wasn't exactly depopulated when
> Theon took it, and that was a fairly militarily-heavy town. The little
> villages will all have their share of fighting men. And women and
> children, most likely, when the Others come.
>
I would guess, like Winterfell, that most of the North is combat
ready. Seems like the farmer with no combat experience is something
solely existing in the South.
>
> > But Ned seems awfully personal here, and we know that he wasn't a
> > ward, and none of his own kids was, nor his brothers for that matter.
> > He clearly dislikes the whol Lannister clan and maybe that's enough,
> > but I just wonder whether there is something here more than we know.
>
> I thought there were a bunch of Starks and Baratheons and Tullys in
> the ward-circle back in the day? Robert at least reminisces about his
> time in the Vale, pretty sure, and he speaks as though Ned had been
> there too. Jon Arryn was like a father to at least one of them. Or
> maybe to Catelyn ... I just don't remember. I may be getting it mixed
> up with the Catelyn/Brandon and Lysa/Jon weddings.
>
I think that Ned might have visited the Tullys. Very likely that
Robert was a ward to Jon, as he's the one who calls him a father
figure, which I believe Ned agrees with. But I also seem to remember
one of the Starks (or maybe somebody else talking about them) saying
they weren't very fond of the ward concept.
> Ned just doesn't like the way the Lannisters operate, I think. And
> rightly so.
>
That's certain. I still think there might be something more to this
issue, though. But that's just supposition.
>
> > And with what potential benefit? Essentially Robert doomed Ned's who
> > family and way of life so he could get his willie wet. Hard to believe
> > these two could ever have been friends.
>
> I think a deep-down part of Robert (the same part that laughed rather
> than get angry when Ned said he was too fat for his armour) knew that
> Ned would keep him honest, help him be a good king, and limit his
> worst moves in a way none of the others would. He'd be the only decent
> and honest voice on the Small Council.
>
Certainly that, though the few words of wisdom Ned did give Robert he
ignored, so it seems the selfish bastard got used to the kissing up...
> Remember the saying, a bad King needs a good Hand, and vice versa. I
> think Robert was acknowledging that he was a bad King, and although
> there wasn't much he could do about his badness or his Kingship, he
> wanted one of his old friends near to wipe up the vomit and hide the
> bodies.
>
Yeah, that's the case. Ned seems like that kind of friend, who would
hate it but he would do it. Just a damn shame that Robert wouldn't
appreciate having a friend like that, instead of screwing him for it.
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Heh, interesting. Martin certainly doesn't balk at ghosts and spirits,
> > so there could be something to it - especially since the winter is
> > descending and the power of the supernatural is rising. And we haven't
> > been down in the crypts - or even around Winterfell very much -
> > lately. Who knows what's going on there?
>
> Gawd help us, a bunch of stone-headed Stark ghosts? We might be better
> off with the Others! Though I imagine with their rusty swords they
> might prove handy, like the ghost army from Return of the King.
Well, I don't know how much damage they could do, particularly to
Others or wights, but they're always an option for Martin to pull out
of his hat later on. Not that I see that happening.
> Anybody else think that was something of a deviation from the books? I
> don't remember the spirits being the deciding factor in the battle for
> Minas Tirith, but it's also been a long time since I read LOTR...
No, the oathbreakers did turn up with Aragorn and save the day, pretty
sure. That's why Gandalf sent Aragorn that way in the first place.
I don't think there were graphic scenes of googly green guys swarming
over the M�makil and killing them, but then there were no graphic
scenes of Legolas shield-surfing down stairs and killing M�makil with
his bow, either.
> That seems to be the case, but I wonder if there are lots more still
> out there. Seems like most escaped at the Twins, besides the captains
> anyway.
I thought there was a massacre in the soldiers' party as well. But
yeah, I guess a bunch of them would have gotten away.
> > Ned just doesn't like the way the Lannisters operate, I think. And
> > rightly so.
>
> That's certain. I still think there might be something more to this
> issue, though. But that's just supposition.
It will all come to light when UnNed and UnTywin have their big
splattery zomb-off in Book Seven: A Cuntload of Corpsicles.
> > I think a deep-down part of Robert (the same part that laughed rather
> > than get angry when Ned said he was too fat for his armour) knew that
> > Ned would keep him honest, help him be a good king, and limit his
> > worst moves in a way none of the others would. He'd be the only decent
> > and honest voice on the Small Council.
>
> Certainly that, though the few words of wisdom Ned did give Robert he
> ignored, so it seems the selfish bastard got used to the kissing up...
Quite so. It was the sentiment that got his blubbery arse on a horse
and all the way up to Winterfell, but once they got back to King's
Landing (and what a fun trip that was), Robert realised Ned was an
even worse nag than his wife, and opted to ignore him and die.
Although the dying bit may not have been in his plan.
> > Remember the saying, a bad King needs a good Hand, and vice versa. I
> > think Robert was acknowledging that he was a bad King, and although
> > there wasn't much he could do about his badness or his Kingship, he
> > wanted one of his old friends near to wipe up the vomit and hide the
> > bodies.
>
> Yeah, that's the case. Ned seems like that kind of friend, who would
> hate it but he would do it. Just a damn shame that Robert wouldn't
> appreciate having a friend like that, instead of screwing him for it.
Indeed. And paid the price for it in a fashion just timely enough for
us to have our "I told you so" moment before Ned also copped it for
his own character flaws. If integrity and honesty and decency and an
unwillingness to be casually cruel are flaws.
They certainly are in King's Landing.
C&J
Ben
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:30:56 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> > off with the Others! Though I imagine with their rusty swords they
> > might prove handy, like the ghost army from Return of the King.
>
> Well, I don't know how much damage they could do, particularly to
> Others or wights, but they're always an option for Martin to pull out
> of his hat later on. Not that I see that happening.
>
>
> No, the oathbreakers did turn up with Aragorn and save the day, pretty
> sure. That's why Gandalf sent Aragorn that way in the first place.
>
Understated in the books, I think, but I have to dig them out of the
attic. Good excuse as any.
> I don't think there were graphic scenes of googly green guys swarming
> over the Mûmakil and killing them, but then there were no graphic
> scenes of Legolas shield-surfing down stairs and killing Mûmakil with
> his bow, either.
>
Legolas was probably the only thing about those movies that was corny,
and even that I understood, give the kids something to say "Wow,
cool!" too. I don't think kids of this generation would quite
sympathize with or understand the hobbit concept, which is kind of
sad...
>
> I thought there was a massacre in the soldiers' party as well. But
> yeah, I guess a bunch of them would have gotten away.
>
Well, considering we haven't heard anything from them, other than a
half-ass resistance to Theon's squad of goons taking Winterfell, I
would guess they are holed up good, or maybe they are mostly dead
("All dead, there's only one thing to do, go through the pockets and
look for loose change")
>
> It will all come to light when UnNed and UnTywin have their big
> splattery zomb-off in Book Seven: A Cuntload of Corpsicles.
>
Now THERE's a book worth waiting ten years for! Laughed the first time
I read this, then got a visual and stopped...
>
> Quite so. It was the sentiment that got his blubbery arse on a horse
> and all the way up to Winterfell, but once they got back to King's
> Landing (and what a fun trip that was), Robert realised Ned was an
> even worse nag than his wife, and opted to ignore him and die.
> Although the dying bit may not have been in his plan.
>
Ug, what a douche. Re-reading a bit to do the CHOWs I don't remember
hating him quite so much. Now I kind of picture him as Fat Bastard
from the Austin Powers movies.
>
> Indeed. And paid the price for it in a fashion just timely enough for
> us to have our "I told you so" moment before Ned also copped it for
> his own character flaws. If integrity and honesty and decency and an
> unwillingness to be casually cruel are flaws.
>
> They certainly are in King's Landing.
>
Well we have yet to see somebody in the books who didn't pay a pretty
hefty price for these particular flaws. The few left alive with any
decency have all been pretty heavily scarred. Then again nobody was
left sittin' pretty after Feast, until we get back to some Dany
stories anyway. And I am guessing she's got plenty of troubles of her
own by now...
Ben
Chucky & Janica
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>Well we have yet to see somebody in the books who didn't pay a pretty
>hefty price for these particular flaws. The few left alive with any
>decency have all been pretty heavily scarred. Then again nobody was
>left sittin' pretty after Feast, until we get back to some Dany
>stories anyway. And I am guessing she's got plenty of troubles of her
>own by now...
She's paid pretty heavily for being too nice, and she's gotten
perfectly ruthless in the past couple of books. Hopefully it doesn't
go too far.
Although it would be kinda cool if she turned out to be a foaming
pyromaniacal nutjob. And ruled the world.
C&J
Ben
wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 01:54:13 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>
> perfectly ruthless in the past couple of books. Hopefully it doesn't
> go too far.
>
> Although it would be kinda cool if she turned out to be a foaming
> pyromaniacal nutjob. And ruled the world.
>
more often than not exactly that. I think that this dichotomy between
wanting to be fair and just, which periodically results in her being
betrayed, and her being ruthless and killing everyone, which typically
has great and favorable results, will be the defining storyline for
Daenerys. She's pretty bright, and sooner or later is going to figure
out (if she hasn't already) that being a good person just doesn't pay
off.
Ben
Will in New Haven
As long as one doesn't have to _live_ in the world ruled by the
foaming pyromaniacal nutjob it might ok. I hope someone kills her
dragons and she quietly dissapears stage left myself. Since there
aren't going to b any more books, I can hope for waht I want.
--
Will in New Haven
Ben
there's enough to put together at least Dance. Hell Tolkien has put
out, what?, four books in the last five years, and he's been dead for
a good long time now. Now whether anyone will care in 2021 when book
#6 should be scheduled to come out, that's a good question...
Curious to your actual response to something happening in the books,
which I know you have for the most part boycotted. Not a Dany fan? I
wonder if the events in the Eastern Continent have shown that she
might very well be Targaryen after all, and some of the squabbling
Westerosi nobility might find themselves more conveniently disposed of
rather than catered to...?
Ben
Will in New Haven
I _like_ Dani. She has many good qualities and has dealt with her
situation admirably. I just sensed, early on, that adding yet
_another_ fucking faction to what was already going on in Westeros was
going to make the series even more unwieldy. Frankly, and this is
partly hindsight, it might have better if the leaders of Robb's forces
shouting "The King in the North" and pledging themselves to him had
been the _end_ of the whole thing. I may go back and forget everything
that happened afterward and remember the series as ending at that
point.
Just read Ellen Kushner's _Swordspoint_ I gave it four stars out of
five in my rambling Amazon.com review. I would have given it about 4.3
if that had been allowed.
Ben
(how could it not be, after all this time?) I might agree with you, as
that was certainly a high point (though it would leave out the Red
Wedding, which was one of the best stories I have ever read, made me
throw my book at the wall). I know it is futile, but I still hold out
great hope that Dance will be a redemption for aSoIaF. Foolish
optimist, I guess.
> Just read Ellen Kushner's _Swordspoint_ I gave it four stars out of
> five in my rambling Amazon.com review. I would have given it about 4.3
> if that had been allowed.
>
Will check it out, don't know her work at all.
Ben
Chucky and the Fantabulous Webomophone
wrote:
> I _like_ Dani. She has many good qualities and has dealt with her
> situation admirably. I just sensed, early on, that adding yet
> _another_ fucking faction to what was already going on in Westeros was
> going to make the series even more unwieldy. Frankly, and this is
> partly hindsight, it might have better if the leaders of Robb's forces
> shouting "The King in the North" and pledging themselves to him had
> been the _end_ of the whole thing. I may go back and forget everything
> that happened afterward and remember the series as ending at that
> point.
To be fair, Danaerys's storyline was pretty much the first one to
happen at the beginning of the series. It started off with the Others,
Ned and Robert on one continent, and Dragon eggs, Danaerys and Viserys
on the other.
There's no denying that the Westeros story-threads have gone nuts
since then, but taking out one of the oldest storylines - and the only
one that has remained singular and coherent - would not improve
things. It would just leave us with a tangled mass of tangential
stories without any hope of somebody turning up to burn them all to
shit and back at the end.
C@w
--
Danaerys's storyline wasn't "yet another fucking faction". Every
single person who lived in Winterfell going off into a separate
storyline is where the trouble started. Those are the "yet another
fucking faction"s you want to worry your fuddled old head about.
Danaerys's one is easy.
Ben
<st.chu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 29 loka, 15:30, Will in New Haven <bill.re...@taylorandfrancis.com>
> wrote:
>
> To be fair, Danaerys's storyline was pretty much the first one to
> happen at the beginning of the series. It started off with the Others,
> Ned and Robert on one continent, and Dragon eggs, Danaerys and Viserys
> on the other.
>
we get to see a lot of whacked out cultures and things that are just
alluded to (at least until Arya came over to Braavos, and now
presumably Tyrion with the next book). One of the things I really love
about the books is the parralel storylines, where Danaerys who is so
pivotal to the overall storyline is doing her own thing and facing her
own challenges with only tangential links to the main Westerosi
storyline. But it's clear right from the start that her story is at
least as important as the Stark-Winterfell-Others, and probably
considerably more important than the Baratheon-Lannister Seven
Kingdoms throne storyline.
> There's no denying that the Westeros story-threads have gone nuts
> since then, but taking out one of the oldest storylines - and the only
> one that has remained singular and coherent - would not improve
> things. It would just leave us with a tangled mass of tangential
> stories without any hope of somebody turning up to burn them all to
> shit and back at the end.
>
I hope that Dany does not turn into a deus ex machina for Martin (not
for Westeros, as she will almost certainly turn out to be that). I
would make things a lot easier to resolve hanging plot threads by
simply killing everyone involved, whether it be Others or Dragons or
what have you. There are a lot of guns on the mantle as it were that
Martin gave us earlier and I fully expect he is talented enough to
bring most of them down and shoot them at some point.
> --
> Danaerys's storyline wasn't "yet another fucking faction". Every
> single person who lived in Winterfell going off into a separate
> storyline is where the trouble started. Those are the "yet another
> fucking faction"s you want to worry your fuddled old head about.
> Danaerys's one is easy.
I agree that this is the ONLY storyline that has not rambled off and
lost focus, every other POV that we have had are in the beginning or
middle of Jordan-esque wandering with many more questions asked than
issues resolved. At some point the loose threads must be resolved in
higher proportion than they are being created. Dany's story is the
only one that is progressing, finishing up and moving on to new
territory without being obfuscated with baggage. The only Seven
Kingdoms storylines that have wrapped up have been the ones that the
characters have died, and nearly all of those have left a lot of
questions behind.
Ben
John Vreeland
<frodoli...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Oct 23, 2:38�am, Chucky & Janica <janica.hin...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 07:30:56 -0700 (PDT), Ben
>>
>> > Gawd help us, a bunch of stone-headed Stark ghosts? We might be better
>> > off with the Others! Though I imagine with their rusty swords they
>> > might prove handy, like the ghost army from Return of the King.
>>
>> Well, I don't know how much damage they could do, particularly to
>> Others or wights, but they're always an option for Martin to pull out
>> of his hat later on. Not that I see that happening.
>>
>Naw, me neither, just more idle thought...
>
>>
>> No, the oathbreakers did turn up with Aragorn and save the day, pretty
>> sure. That's why Gandalf sent Aragorn that way in the first place.
>>
>Understated in the books, I think, but I have to dig them out of the
>attic. Good excuse as any.
>
>
>> I don't think there were graphic scenes of googly green guys swarming
>> over the M�makil and killing them, but then there were no graphic
>> scenes of Legolas shield-surfing down stairs and killing M�makil with
>> his bow, either.
>>
>Legolas was probably the only thing about those movies that was corny,
>and even that I understood, give the kids something to say "Wow,
>cool!" too. I don't think kids of this generation would quite
>sympathize with or understand the hobbit concept, which is kind of
>sad...
>
>>
>> I thought there was a massacre in the soldiers' party as well. But
>> yeah, I guess a bunch of them would have gotten away.
>>
>Well, considering we haven't heard anything from them, other than a
>half-ass resistance to Theon's squad of goons taking Winterfell, I
>would guess they are holed up good, or maybe they are mostly dead
>("All dead, there's only one thing to do, go through the pockets and
>look for loose change")
Theon had distracted them from Winterfell. They were all off to the
west trying to save a fortress from a diversionary attack from one of
Theon's hero retainers. When they finally realized that they had been
duped they returned to Winterfell and would have squashed Prince Theon
except that they got tricked again---by the Bastard of Dreadfort this
time---and annihilated outside the walls of Winterfell.
--
My years on the mudpit that is Usnenet have taught me one important thing: three Creation Scientists can have a serious conversation, if two of them are sock puppets.
Ben
>
> Theon had distracted them from Winterfell. They were all off to the
> west trying to save a fortress from a diversionary attack from one of
> Theon's hero retainers. When they finally realized that they had been
> duped they returned to Winterfell and would have squashed Prince Theon
> except that they got tricked again---by the Bastard of Dreadfort this
> time---and annihilated outside the walls of Winterfell.
>
be part of any resistance to the Others. So are we left with
stragglers, Roose Bolton's people, the Karstarks (I think they left
the party early, didn't they?), and maybe a few Umbers? Those and
Howland's Reed's (presumably few) people? Doesn't sound like an army
that would be very effective, though logistically it is impossible to
believe that the Bastard's attack would have wiped out everyone. I
suspect that many would have fled, though it would be very Northern to
fight to the last man. Just idle curiosity, I guess.
Ben
John Vreeland
We are shown glimpses of other groups of humanity in the north. Bran
meets one of the local gentry while traveling and it is easy to
imagine that there are lots of them in what had been a relatively
peaceful yet disciplined region. There will be a handful of Karstarks
guarding their lands still despite what I wrote below and the
Dreadfort will undoubtedly be seen as the enemy by all, though only
those with distance will be able to act on that.
The Karstarks dispersed before their lord was arrested, but
many---perhaps all of them---went out after Jaime Lannister. I doubt
any of those troops made it back to the north. For the most part they
made up the bulk of the "wolves" that were hunted down by the locals
in the Riverlands. The mad hunter seems to have had a few in cages,
and when Arya was captured by the brotherhood the woman who gave her a
bath described being harassed by a very small band of "wolves" who
were clearly Karstark's men outside her house looking for Jaime. She
scared them off with a crossbow, which probably shows that they were
only desperate for vengeance and had not yet been reduced to savagery.
So what happened to all of Karstark's men? They never caught
Lannister so I suppose that being unable to team up together for
mutual support in a hostile country they became the bulk of the broken
northern men in the Riverlands. Martin does not make it very clear
(we never get a pov from them, of course) but it doesn't take much
imagination to guess where they are now: scattered and hunted.