The 'Bobs' of this world.
Greylocks
Yeah, we should be nice and polite.
Yeah, everyone has qualities.
BUT! A convention staffer or a dealer is NOT a Social Worker or a
Psychiatrist.
None of us are there to train the 'Bobs' in social graces.
If you harass folks, there will be a reaction. If you repeat the
harassment, the reaction will get worse.
If you do that at a Con, you risk being ejected.
If you have big social problems, seek help. It is up to you to get a
clue. If you feel ostracized and ignored, hated and feared, look in the
mirror. Usually you are the cause of your own grief.
Up to you to change it. Dont blame the planet.
gbreshears
>BUT! A convention staffer or a dealer is NOT a Social Worker or
>a
>Psychiatrist.
Oh, agreed. Definitely.
>If you have big social problems, seek help. It is up to you to
>get a
>clue. If you feel ostracized and ignored, hated and feared, look
>in the
>mirror. Usually you are the cause of your own grief.
>Up to you to change it.
And this applies whether your "big social problem" is that you
ask people in loud voices to draw stuff that they are perfectly
willing to sell other people OR if your social problem is you
scream at someone, throw a hissy fit on usenet, and hold a grudge
about something that is only secondarily the other person's fault
for six years afterwards.
--Gene
"Everybody wants to be a cat.
'cause a cat's the only cat who knows where it's at."
-O'Malley the Alley Cat, The Aristocats
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Furplay
gbreshears wrote:
>
>
> And this applies whether your "big social problem" is that you
> ask people in loud voices to draw stuff that they are perfectly
> willing to sell other people OR if your social problem is you
> scream at someone, throw a hissy fit on usenet, and hold a grudge
> about something that is only secondarily the other person's fault
> for six years afterwards.
>
Scream? What scream? Am I supposed to somehow be happy that a project I
held very dear was wrecked by someone else, and had to spend several
years to get it out of a coma?
Perhaps I should be screaming about that.
And no, it's not "secondarily the other person's fault". He's directly
responsible, yet what really pisses is that not only does he refuse to
accept any responsibility, but continues on with the very behaviour that
caused it in the first place.
Wait till it happens to you guy. Wait till it happens to you.
--
"There ought to be limits to freedom." -- GW Bush commenting about the
parody site at http://www.gwbush.com
Kai
O'Connell and Schorn. I now know the true meaning of fear.
In case you haven't gotten the hint, just shut the fuck up already.
Furplay
Kai wrote:
>
> Now I am thinking about being stuck in an elevator with Bob, Duane, Hirtes,
> O'Connell and Schorn. I now know the true meaning of fear.
>
I'll just be tapping on the buttons, wanting the elevator to get me up
to my $#@*%! floor already, so you won't have to worry about me at least.
Alan Kennedy
>
> Now I am thinking about being stuck in an elevator with Bob, Duane, Hirtes,
> O'Connell and Schorn. I now know the true meaning of fear.
>
I set two seats over from Hangdog at the super sponser luncheaon at AC99, and
was like a seat or two from in in the buss over. For as loud and as pompous as
he can act here, he really is a well behaved guy. Apparently, even Blumrich can
be as well, as when I was talking to him. As in another post, I've met Duane,
but not O'connel or Hirtes. I'm sure, i could get along with Brian, but I'd
probably have to tell Hirtes to piss off, just they whe conveys himself here.
THen again, impressions here are NOTHING like they are in RL.
Heh..
I should know that better then most.
--
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** Alan Kennedy,
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** ICQ: 8781052
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** AKA:TriGem Olandarinse, Thé £ùPhrªnítÉ Bioroid
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** YAHOO: goldanthrowolf
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** WWW: http://www.furnation.com/trigem
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** E-MAIL: trigem (at) hotmail.com - text
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._** E-MAIL: trigem (at) dragonbbs.com - binaries
^spam trap^
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> In case you haven't gotten the hint, just shut the fuck up already.
Hey, hey, hey -- let's not do this, okay? Everyone feels entitled
to their opinion, and I know that sometimes things feel dragged
out. But these people were having a conversation on a public forum
and weren't breaking any rules. I can understand that you might
be tired of the conversation, but telling people to STFU isn't
going to foster a lot of goodwill. Trust me on this one.
StukaFox
Kai
news:397F38D3...@novia.net...
>
> I'll just be tapping on the buttons, wanting the elevator to get me up
> to my $#@*%! floor already, so you won't have to worry about me at least.
The funny thing about this reply is that Outlook recognizes $#@*% as a valid
e-mail address.
Ostrich
>
> The funny thing about this reply is that Outlook recognizes $#@*% as a valid
> e-mail address.
>
Outlook keys on that @ character. It's not real discriminating.
--
-Ostrich! <") http://www.furnation.com/ostrich
gbreshears
>And no, it's not "secondarily the other person's fault". He's
>directly
>responsible
I'm not trying to make this into any more of a flame fest than it
already is, but I would like to explain my reasoning for choosing
the phrase "secondarily responsible."
There is no such thing as mind control. "Bob" didn't FORCE Fred
to change his mind about the project. FRED decided to back out of
the project. The fact that Fred named "Bob" as the reason does
NOT make Bob directly responsible.
If Bob had held a gun to Fred's head and said, "Drop the project
or you're dead." Then he would be directly responsible. If Bob
had chopped both of your arms off, then he would have been
directly responsible. If Bob had kidnapped the child of the
president of the comic book company that was supposed to publish
your project and threatened to kill her if he didn't drop you
like a hot potato, then he would have been directly responsible.
If one embarassing encounter (no matter HOW creepy it was) was
all it took to make Fred drop the project, then logic indictates
that Fred wasn't very committed to the project to begin with. Bob
is, at most, the final straw in Fred's decision-making.
Bad things happen to all of us. It doesn't matter how many times
you fall down, or even if sometimes you are tripped, the ONLY
thing that matters is how many times we pick ourselves back up
and move forward.
gbreshears
>Wait till it happens to you guy. Wait till it happens to you.
You're statement assumes facts not it evidence.
Far, far worse than this has happened to me already. I got over
it.
I sincerely hope that you can, too.
Furplay
gbreshears wrote:
>
[snip]
Appparently, YOU'VE never had a "Bob encounter", have you? ;)
miertam(at)aa.net
>
>
>gbreshears wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>
>Appparently, YOU'VE never had a "Bob encounter", have you? ;)
Yes, he has I was standing there next to him.
------------------------------------------
Mier'Tam
The most important thing about magic is how you don't use it.
Esk
Wonder Enis Gheen Wonder
Simon Stevin
William Earl Haskell
> On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:07:47 -0500, Furplay <fur...@novia.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >gbreshears wrote:
> >>
> >[snip]
> >
> >Appparently, YOU'VE never had a "Bob encounter", have you? ;)
>
> Yes, he has I was standing there next to him.
I haven't met him, to the extant of actually exchanging remarks with him
(not being a spoogeartist), but I've seen him several times at furcons.
I'd even recognize him on sight if I saw him walking down the street here
in town <pause> what a scary thought...
OTOH I have yet to have a Encounter of a George kind.
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
I was "Georged" at CFX. But it's not much to speak of.
--
"if Marylin Manson has more of an influence on a kid than the kid's parents
do, then maybe the parents need to look at how they're raising their kids."
-- Charlie Clouser, Keyboardist, Nine Inch Nails.
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.
Qit el-Remel
Greylocks <grey...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> Yeah, sometimes it's not their fault.
> Yeah, we should be nice and polite.
> Yeah, everyone has qualities.
>
> Psychiatrist.
>
What the deuce is a "Bob"?
--
http://qitelremel.ca.webjump.com
FFC3a/F[Sand cat (felis margarita harrisoni)]3a A C+ D H M# P++ R+ T+++
W Z Sf+ RLAT a cmn+ d- e# f+ h# iwf- j+ p- sf+
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Matthew High
>to change his mind about the project. FRED decided to back out of
>the project. The fact that Fred named "Bob" as the reason does
>NOT make Bob directly responsible.
The whole thing is a non-issue.
As someone who worked at Antarctic Press from 1993-1998, and who knows Fred, he
did not pull out of drawing the story because of Dennis. End of story.
Also, five years ago, Dennis K. was deserving of his reputation. He has
improved dramatically in his behavior and manners over the past few years, to
the point now where I would say that he behaves better than the average comics
fan at conventions. Let's stop demonizing him for transgressions long past,
eh?
Best,
- Matthew
----------
"Matt! Come into the light" "No! I like the darkness!"
Distributor/Retailer Liaison Radio Comix http://www.radiocomix.com
Promotion/Sales Cold Cut Distribution http://www.coldcut.com
Furplay
Matthew High wrote:
>
> >There is no such thing as mind control. "Bob" didn't FORCE Fred
> >to change his mind about the project. FRED decided to back out of
> >the project. The fact that Fred named "Bob" as the reason does
> >NOT make Bob directly responsible.
>
> The whole thing is a non-issue.
>
> As someone who worked at Antarctic Press from 1993-1998, and who knows Fred, he
> did not pull out of drawing the story because of Dennis. End of story.
Wrong story, guy. I heard it different from Fred himself. Here's the
text from the very fingers of Fred himself. Completely unaltered (exept
for the removal of his email addy for obvious reasons).
I preferred not to post it, but certain asswipes with grudges and their
false accusations have forced my hand:
*****************************************************
From: "Fred GD Perry" <****addy deleted****>
To: "furplay" <fur...@novia.net>
Subject: Re: On "Bob"
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:17:51 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Okay here's why I decided not to do the harem story:
Originally I agreed to draw Mike's story. I thought it was a good idea with
a good hook.
There was no bondage or pain or piercing in the original story.
The story was about two harem girls getting it on with toys for their own
amusement.
They were dressed in harem duds so I thought that was the hook.
The only things that didn't turn me on about the story was the whole nipple
ring thing.
I didn't mind it, but I didn't care for it either.
Same thing goes for the backdoor use of the toys...
didn't mind but didn't care.
So I was game.
I did a few pics for Mike as model sheets. I think one or two of them went
to Midnight Sands or one of his fanzines.
He asked for my permission before publishing. I gave him the go.
Then at my second convention, something happened that changed my mind.
During the convention, a nice old lady and her two little grandkids came up
to my table. She looked ever-so happy to see me!
Her grandkids pointing at me.."Look! its Fred Perry! He's the one who draws
'Gold Digger'"
She looked just like my grandmother! The two little kids were adorable! She
told me she loved reading my book to her grandkids.
I was bursting with pride all over! Seeing their smiles made me smile too!
But then--
Without warning, this guy shoved the old woman aside with his bulk... she
almost fell! (I'm serious!! This HAPPENED!!!)
I was stunned! I didn't know what to say or do next!
In a very loud voice he began to ask me if I take commissions! Before I
could say *anything* he began to describe what he wanted in front of the old
woman and her grandkids!
"Uh, Mr. Perry?" (I remember every word as clear as a bell)"I want you to
draw a picture for me! I want a picture of Gina eating out Brianna with both
of their nipples peirced by nipple-rings, but connected together with a
chain!!! And they both have dildos sticking out of their asses!"
I remember feeling the muscles in my face go slack as my jaw dropped. I
looked at the face of the old woman! the kids! They heard every word as
clearly as I had! I remember looking at them. I remember the way they looked
back at me in shock!
I stammered back at Dennis "I DON'T DRAW THOSE KINDS OF PICTURES!!"
Dennis reached in his bag and quickly pulled out a copy of midnight-sands...
earmarked to the page where I had the drawn a picture with a girl who had
nipple-rings connected by a chain and a large dildo lodge up her
backside...
"But yes you *do* Mr. Perry! See? You did it in this copy of
Midnight-Sands!!"
Busted.
The old woman corralled her grandkids, and without a backwards glance, ran
away!
What could I say? What could I do? I was sure that in their eyes, I was no
better than Dennis... worse! I was his supplier of scum!
At that time I explained to Dennis that I would never draw that again. That
I would never have anything in Midnight-Sands again.
And so I stayed away from nipplerings and dildos and backsides for the rest
of my days.
I canceled the project Mike proposed because it had the things Dennis wanted
to see. I even blamed him for selling that copy to Dennis.
(although I now see that was a bit unreasonable.)
Now that I think about it, it could have been any copy of any adult story
that I drew that would have set me off.
Velvet, Abomb, Milk, My own portfolios...
If Dennis would have asked for what I did in any of those books as a
commission in front of that woman and her grandkids...I probably would have
swore off doing that book...and doing the material he asked for.
Actually, I wouldn't have mind do a commission for him (Just not Gina eating
out Brianna... thats incest.)
But to ask me in front of little kids and old ladies... In that loud voice
of his....
I hope you can see what I'm talking about.
Fred.
***********************************************
There it is. So unless you want to walk up to Fred Perry and call him a
bald-faced liar, that answers it once and all.
Now, if I was ALLOWED to put this whole mess behind me, I would
appreciate it very freakin' much..........
Chuck Melville
Furplay wrote:
> Matthew High wrote:
> >
> > >There is no such thing as mind control. "Bob" didn't FORCE Fred
> > >to change his mind about the project. FRED decided to back out of
> > >the project. The fact that Fred named "Bob" as the reason does
> > >NOT make Bob directly responsible.
> >
> > The whole thing is a non-issue.
> >
> > As someone who worked at Antarctic Press from 1993-1998, and who knows Fred, he
> > did not pull out of drawing the story because of Dennis. End of story.
>
> Wrong story, guy. I heard it different from Fred himself. Here's the
> text from the very fingers of Fred himself. Completely unaltered (exept
> for the removal of his email addy for obvious reasons).
(snipped for brevity)
I dunno... even though Fred supports your version (and I believe I may even have
witnessed part of this, since the account sounds very familiar), I don't see that it
necessarily contradicts Matt. It just confirms that Dennis was the catalyst and not
the reason. Read it again: it was the reaction of the children and the grandmother
that hit home to Fred; it was how he and his work were suddenly viewed by fans (and
relatives) who apparently had no idea he did that sort of thing. Sounds from his
letter that he suddenly had come face-to-face with unconsidered consequences. True,
it might not have happened if not for Dennis -- as pointed out, Dennis is tact-blind
and a bit on the simple side -- but he was only the catalyst for Fred pulling out,
not the reason.
Furplay
Chuck Melville wrote:
>
>
> I dunno... even though Fred supports your version (and I believe I may even have
> witnessed part of this, since the account sounds very familiar), I don't see that it
> necessarily contradicts Matt.
[shakes his head in utter phucking disbelief that even direct quotes
can't sway these mindless assholes]
> It just confirms that Dennis was the catalyst and not
> the reason. Read it again: it was the reaction of the children and the grandmother
> that hit home to Fred; it was how he and his work were suddenly viewed by fans (and
> relatives) who apparently had no idea he did that sort of thing. Sounds from his
> letter that he suddenly had come face-to-face with unconsidered consequences. True,
> it might not have happened if not for Dennis -- as pointed out, Dennis is tact-blind
> and a bit on the simple side -- but he was only the catalyst for Fred pulling out,
> not the reason.
Were YOU speaking with Fred on the phone that night? Did you somehow
hack into Echelon and overhear our conversation? I asked him in no
uncertain terms and who and what was responsible for what happened that
day, and he told me in no uncertain terms who and what was responsible.
Case closed. End of story.
YOU just want to hoist the blame onto MY shoulders for what had happened
(notice Fred's comment that it would have been ANY comic held by Dennis
that would have caused this. Mine just happened to have been the the
unfortunate one Dennis picked). THAT has been what's been pissing to me
so much ere; the idea that *I* am to be held to blame for what someone
ELSE had done.
Guys, can I PLEASE put this behind me? Pretty fucking please? huh?
Todd Knarr
> Were YOU speaking with Fred on the phone that night? Did you somehow
> hack into Echelon and overhear our conversation? I asked him in no
> uncertain terms and who and what was responsible for what happened that
> day, and he told me in no uncertain terms who and what was responsible.
> Case closed. End of story.
Furplay, lemme quote Fred on it:
"Actually, I wouldn't have mind do a commission for him (Just not Gina
eating out Brianna... thats incest.) But to ask me in front of little
kids and old ladies... In that loud voice of his.... I hope you can see
what I'm talking about."
That's from the copy you included in your post. That sounds very much
like it was the reaction, not Dennis asking or even neccesarily the
subject matter he asked about, that Fred had the problem with. From
what I read, if someone other than Dennis had come up and behaved in
the same way and provoked the same reaction, Fred would have backed
out exactly as he described. If Dennis had come up and asked when there
was nobody around, quietly and without making a scene, Fred may well
have not backed out of anything, and may even have done Dennis' piece
for him. Disagreement?
--
If you'll excuse me - I have fifteen things fighting for my attention, all
of them annoying.
-- Susan Ivanova
Furplay
Todd Knarr wrote:
>
> In alt.fan.furry <39834C14...@novia.net> Furplay <fur...@novia.net> wrote:
> > Were YOU speaking with Fred on the phone that night? Did you somehow
> > hack into Echelon and overhear our conversation? I asked him in no
> > uncertain terms and who and what was responsible for what happened that
> > day, and he told me in no uncertain terms who and what was responsible.
> > Case closed. End of story.
>
> Furplay, lemme quote Fred on it:
>
> "Actually, I wouldn't have mind do a commission for him (Just not Gina
> eating out Brianna... thats incest.) But to ask me in front of little
> kids and old ladies... In that loud voice of his.... I hope you can see
> what I'm talking about."
>
> That's from the copy you included in your post. That sounds very much
> like it was the reaction, not Dennis asking or even neccesarily the
> subject matter he asked about, that Fred had the problem with. From
> what I read, if someone other than Dennis had come up and behaved in
> the same way and provoked the same reaction, Fred would have backed
> out exactly as he described.
Exactly, but bear in mind that unlike what some have been accusing, I
had'nt been the reason (or even the symptom) of what got Fred so weirded
out that day. Hell, if Bob pulled that sh*t on me in front of a
Grandmother and children, *I* might have had enough of an "oogie"
feeling to reconsider doing adult fare for a while (if not permanently).
> If Dennis had come up and asked when there
> was nobody around, quietly and without making a scene, Fred may well
> have not backed out of anything, and may even have done Dennis' piece
> for him. Disagreement?
>
None whatsoever. Had Dennis done that, then he'd be no more worse than
any other run-of-the-mill spoogemonkey out there, and there would'nt
have been any problem. It was the destructively boorish behavior that
set him apart.
FYI, when *I'M* asking for an erotic or "H" type con illo, I don't talk
about it in front of the artist in public. What I do is simply get my
name on the art list, and then when my turn comes up, I don't talk about
it in the open. I simply jot my requests/suggestions down on a sheet of
notepad paper and hand it to them and see if it's cool with them (always
good to have several variations and alternates for the artist to choose
from, just in case).
If reference art is needed, I'd hand it to them, with the drawn side
facing *down*.
Usually, fare like that I never expect to have drawn during the
convention hours in full public view, but to be done back at the hotel
most likely. I don't mind picking up the piece(s) the next day or later
when I stop back at the table.
If Dennis has served any useful purpose to me, it's to show how NOT to
ask for a hentai commission or sketch pic.
If he's had his "edge" blunted since the big talking to (apparently,
some Tyggers do more than just bounce. <g>), then I feel fortunate.
Hopefully he will also learn one day that soap and water won't deflesh
him, and then his loud voice might be more bearable.
On taking a more tolerant view towards him, is there ever any way we can
play "It takes a village...." with this guy at every con he shows up at
and somehow "train" him in the finer points of tact and discretion? At
least then we know that we tried our best with him. At least then we'd
have the clear consciences in knowing that we honestly tried doing it
the NICE way.
Chuck Melville
Furplay wrote:
> [shakes his head in utter phucking disbelief that even direct quotes
> can't sway these mindless assholes]
>
Oh, yeah... -that's- going to sway me, sure thing.
>
> Were YOU speaking with Fred on the phone that night? Did you somehow
> hack into Echelon and overhear our conversation? I asked him in no
> uncertain terms and who and what was responsible for what happened that
> day, and he told me in no uncertain terms who and what was responsible.
> Case closed. End of story.
No, I didn't speak with Fred. Instead, I read through the quotes -you- gave us, and
-that- is the basis for my observations. And from what he says -there-, Dennis was the
catalyst. -Anything-, he says, might have set him off and caused the same incident, and
it could have been the presence of -any- similar material at hand; but it was the
-reactions- of the other folks present that gave him cause for alarm and second
thoughts. That, according to his letter to you.
>
>
> Guys, can I PLEASE put this behind me? Pretty fucking please? huh?
Don't see why not. After all, -you- brought it here in the first place.
Furplay
Chuck Melville wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Guys, can I PLEASE put this behind me? Pretty fucking please? huh?
>
> Don't see why not. After all, -you- brought it here in the first place.
For an entirely differnt purpose altogether (no smartassed comments like
"And what was that?", ok?)
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> No, I didn't speak with Fred. Instead, I read through the
> And from what he says - there-, Dennis was the catalyst. -Anything-,
> it was the reactions- of the other folks present that gave him cause
Anything or anyone might have set him off. One condition being different
might have changed things.
Fact:
Dennis did it.
Not much point in talking about hypotheticals once the pen, having writ, moves
on. Facts are facts though.
Kay Shapero
Kai <nu...@eightqueens.com> wrote in message
news:8lnbll$rd7$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> Now I am thinking about being stuck in an elevator with Bob, Duane,
Hirtes,
> O'Connell and Schorn. I now know the true meaning of fear.
Do I get some popcorn? :->