Starting out...
Nytro
Hey, this may seem to be a broad question, but i was wandering around the
world of furry art and i've as sofar nearly pledged my life to drawing it,
theres one problem tho, i dunno how. so i suppose im asking, "how do i draw
furries?"
Jedd Marten
From: Nytro <ny...@edeneast.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry
> Subject: Starting out...
> Date: Wednesday, June 11, 1997 5:57 PM
A good start would be to look at http://rat.org/furry, look for the kind
the furries you'd like to draw and write to those artists.
Jedd
Nytro
see theres the problem, i cannot draw anything yet, but i am trying to get
the humanlike realism.
Buster Charlie wrote in article <5nni3o$m...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>...
>Do the exact opisite as me... ACK!
>
>Well, how do you draw, cartoony, Relistic (animallike or humanlike) or
>mangled (me).
>
>
>ACK!
>
>
>
Nytro
troubles? yes, i still havent found the difference between fantasy and
reality.
Jedd Marten wrote in article <01bc77a5$0162e9a0$0ba2...@Cyberus.cyberus.ca
>...
>
>
>Nytro <ny...@edeneast.com> wrote in article
><5npkao$f...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>...
>> see theres the problem, i cannot draw anything yet, but i am trying to
>get
>> the humanlike realism.
>
>No wonder you've got troubles.
>Work on the animalike and fantasy side.
>If you want some helpful comments, send me some samples.
>If not, well, send me some samples anyway. :o)
>
>Jedd
>
>--
>Ask your dry cleaner about Martenizing.
>http://rat.org/pub/furry/jonesal/readme.htm
>
P.O.Holland
Nytro wrote:
>
> Hey, this may seem to be a broad question, but i was wandering around the
> world of furry art and i've as sofar nearly pledged my life to drawing it,
> theres one problem tho, i dunno how. so i suppose im asking, "how do i draw
> furries?"
doodling around doesn't hurt. Studying other artists' styles helps
too. Personally, I'd recommend trying the basic toon route first. Try
drawing your favorite toons or disney characters based on existing
images. Heck, even _tracing_ can help sharpen your skills (as long as
you realize that a tracing is NOT the same as creating you own original
artwork and that you'd have to limit that sort of thing to practice
only...don't want to get the copyright holders in a twist, ya know).
From the furry end, there's nothing like a good set of illustrated
nature books or magazines to help you get those little furry-features
right.
Who knows, after a couple years and thousands of hours of practice, you
may be producing distinctive high-quality stuff...at least that what the
we all hope will come out of all that work. (Sez it right here in the
brouchure, yup yup.)
--
P.O.Holland hol...@deskmedia.com
(peter thompson) http://www.deskmedia.com/~holland
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| "All our knowledge has its origins in our perceptions" |
| --Leonardo Da Vinci |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
Nate Patrin
G. Raymond Eddy <gre...@bright.net> kicked out the jams, motheryiffers:
> That's what drew me to the fandom, the
> freedom from the shackles of body-beautiful anatomy and all those
> musclebound meatheads pummeling each other and trashing most of a city in
> the process, and the freedom to write some stories with some real plot
and
> some real messages. That's the great thing about this genre. You decide
> what looks good.
Right the hell on! I got a mail from someone stating that my stuff was
"average" and "unrealistic" and therefore unlikely to be commercially
feasible and/or interesting. For one of the first times in my artistic
career I felt like tearing that guy a new asshole for his criticism...
strange that I can go from self-pity to nihilistic anger just like that
(though the letters of support I've gotten have proven to be enough to get
my self-esteem back up). Damn your rules and standards, man! (That's an
important element of comedy right there- thanks to my Cultural Studies prof
for pointing that out.)
Now pardon me. I've gotta repost this mail to a.f.f. and vent juuuuust a
bit more...
-Nate "True men don't kill coyotes... or tell 'em how to draw" Patrin
Scratch
patr...@tc.umn.edu says...
>
>G. Raymond Eddy <gre...@bright.net> kicked out the jams, motheryiffers:
>
>> That's what drew me to the fandom, the
>
>Right the hell on! I got a mail from someone stating that my stuff was
>"average" and "unrealistic" and therefore unlikely to be commercially
>feasible and/or interesting. For one of the first times in my artistic
>career I felt like tearing that guy a new asshole for his criticism...
So, let me get this straight... You did post here asking for opinions
on why your art isn't raising you to the point of being a furry
mega-star. Then you turn around and get pissed because someone offered
you an opinion which wasn't in praise of your work?
>strange that I can go from self-pity to nihilistic anger just like that
>(though the letters of support I've gotten have proven to be enough to get
>my self-esteem back up). Damn your rules and standards, man! (That's an
>important element of comedy right there- thanks to my Cultural Studies prof
>for pointing that out.)
Yep, and an important element of being an artist is to accept criticism.
The important thing about criticism is to learn which parts you can
learn from, and which parts you can ignore. Generally, when you start
hearing the same thing from more then one person, you might want to
consider listening to their reasons.
And also don't get POed just because someone doesn't happen to like
your work. There's always someone out there who isn't going to
like a particular style, reguardless of how good thousands of
other people think it is.
Scratch
--
"Heed what he says, Shiro. We are in a place where even time and
space are stupid" - Tomokato, TSoSC.
Buster Charlie
YEah yeah, but why couldent they E-mail me telling me how much my art
sucks?
Besides, his stuff is NOT average, concidering average is stick figures...
Oh, never mind.
Nate Patrin
Scratch <scratch@itch.*removethis*.com> wrote in article
<5nto71$aif$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>...
> patr...@tc.umn.edu says...
> So, let me get this straight... You did post here asking for opinions
> on why your art isn't raising you to the point of being a furry
> mega-star. Then you turn around and get pissed because someone offered
> you an opinion which wasn't in praise of your work?
A), I don't wanna be a "mega-star". I just want recognition. Second of all,
if I told you that what you did was total and utter crap, would you smile
blissfully and say, "Thank you, Mr. Patrin, I never realized that" or,
better yet, not even respond and have people think that maybe you don't
care about your work enough to defend it? Critiques? Those I can deal with,
but people telling me I'm hopelessly bound to mediocrity because of my
"cartoonish" style... well, fuck 'em.
> Yep, and an important element of being an artist is to accept criticism.
You suck. There, was that criticism? If not, what makes it a mere insult
and not criticism? What is there to differentiate between opinion and
reality? It's, like I said, one thing to tell me "your characters could
have more motion" or "you could work a bit on getting this species'
markings down more accurately", and another entirely to say "Fans don't
like cartoons, it's best to draw more like Terrie Smith".
> The important thing about criticism is to learn which parts you can
> learn from, and which parts you can ignore. Generally, when you start
> hearing the same thing from more then one person, you might want to
> consider listening to their reasons.
What if they don't have reasons any more rational than the fact that they
just go for trends or niches- anime, fantasy, pinup- and are bored shitless
by everything else? Or are just too elitist to really give one-third of a
shit about any artist that's remained unpublished and obscure?
> And also don't get POed just because someone doesn't happen to like
> your work. There's always someone out there who isn't going to
> like a particular style, reguardless of how good thousands of
> other people think it is.
Why not get pissed? It's pretty much a given that I will be anyways.
'Sides, venting's fun. Hey, you must be pissed at something, too- why else
would you respond to me?
> Scratch
> --
> "Heed what he says, Shiro. We are in a place where even time and
> space are stupid" - Tomokato, TSoSC.
-Nate "I must not belong in the fandom if I don't know what 'TSoSC' stands
for" Patrin
Scratch
patr...@tc.umn.edu says...
>Scratch <scratch@itch.*removethis*.com> wrote
>> So, let me get this straight... You did post here asking for opinions
>> on why your art isn't raising you to the point of being a furry
>> mega-star. Then you turn around and get pissed because someone offered
>> you an opinion which wasn't in praise of your work?
>
>A), I don't wanna be a "mega-star". I just want recognition.
Ah, I gues my memory isn't as good as I thought. So what degree of
recognition are you looking for? Do you just want people to say 'Oh yea,
I've seen your work around' or do you want fans pounding on your door
demanding commissions? Heh, actually it would be pretty easy to get
recognition to some degree just by picking some relatively obscure
animal and concentrating on doing drawings of it... "Why yes, I'm
officially regognized as the leading furry artist of morphic aardvarks". :)
>> Yep, and an important element of being an artist is to accept criticism.
>
>You suck. There, was that criticism? If not, what makes it a mere insult
>and not criticism? What is there to differentiate between opinion and
>reality? It's, like I said, one thing to tell me "your characters could
>have more motion" or "you could work a bit on getting this species'
>markings down more accurately", and another entirely to say "Fans don't
>like cartoons, it's best to draw more like Terrie Smith".
Well, quite obviously just saying 'this sucks' isn't a valid critique...
(unless we're talking about the Smurfs or My Little Pony, then I think
you're in the clear) However, you has posted that someone e-mailed you
saying that your art was 'average' and 'unrealistic'. IMHO, I belive
that those are valid critique points. When you first posted, I did
take a quick look at a couple of your pictures up on rat.org, and
my initial thoughts were that your drawings were OK, but they could
use more of a finished touch. Your humor was right on the mark in
a couple of places as well. I was going to stop back tonight and
take a look at things in more detail, but it looks like things at
rat.org are not in the best of shape (right now it's giving me an error
of 'permission denied').
I'd also like to note that it's really easy to point out/critique
techinal issues, such as species markings, paws/muzzle shapes,
forshortening, and use of color, but much more difficult (and touchy)
to critique style and subject matter...
Finally on the topic of fans not liking cartoons, that's hardly true.
Hepcats, Kevin and Kell, Sam and Max, and even the Far Side to some
degree could be considered successful furry comic strips...
I think it would be really cool if someone started a once-a-week
comic strip posting to a.b.p.f and/or fur.artwork.misc. One would
most likely get a fair amount of feedback on it as well.
>> The important thing about criticism is to learn which parts you can
>> learn from, and which parts you can ignore. Generally, when you start
>> hearing the same thing from more then one person, you might want to
>> consider listening to their reasons.
>
>What if they don't have reasons any more rational than the fact that they
>just go for trends or niches- anime, fantasy, pinup- and are bored shitless
>by everything else? Or are just too elitist to really give one-third of a
>shit about any artist that's remained unpublished and obscure?
Feh. Trends have always been a part of the art world. Take a look
around and see how many people are doing serious cubist art these
days...
>> And also don't get POed just because someone doesn't happen to like
>> your work. There's always someone out there who isn't going to
>> like a particular style, reguardless of how good thousands of
>> other people think it is.
>
>Why not get pissed? It's pretty much a given that I will be anyways.
>'Sides, venting's fun. Hey, you must be pissed at something, too- why else
>would you respond to me?
Curiosity and imsomnia (and a couple of beers :)
>> Scratch
>> --
>> "Heed what he says, Shiro. We are in a place where even time and
>> space are stupid" - Tomokato, TSoSC.
>
>-Nate "I must not belong in the fandom if I don't know what 'TSoSC' stands
>for" Patrin
That would be 'The Sword of Samuri Cat'. It's a realitively obscure
series of book about Tomokato, a Samuri Cat and his Uzi toting nephew
(that would be Shiro :) who travel through time and space in order to
avenge his masters death by killing the ones responsible for his
master's death. It's got spoofs of Indiana Jones, and Star Wars,
fights against the improbable 'Hollywood Ninja' and just lots of
good old fasion humor and mayhem.
Jack Furlong - HillBluffer
In article <5ns7b9$b...@nntp02.primenet.com>, gr...@NO.SPAM.primenet.com wrote:
>Nytro <ny...@edeneast.com> wrote:
>: Hey, this may seem to be a broad question, but i was wandering around the
>: world of furry art and i've as sofar nearly pledged my life to drawing it,
>: theres one problem tho, i dunno how. so i suppose im asking, "how do i
draw
>: furries?"
>
>is Atlas of the Human Anatomy for the Artist by Stephen Peck, Dynamic
>Figure Drawing by Burne Hogarth, How to Draw the Lion King by Walter
>Foster (I think, don't have the book handy), How to Animate by Preston
>Blair (I think that is the title, the cover is gone from my copy), and How
>To Draw ANimals by Jack Hamm.
Also recommended:
'An Atlas of Animal Anatomy for Artists'
by W. Ellenberger / H. D. H. Baum
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*** Jack Furlong *** http://www.netcom.com/~jfurlong
*** Artist/MUCKer *** Email www.netcom.com/~jfurlong/contact.html
"Dont take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive!" - Bugs Bunny
Buster Charlie
"Nate Patrin" <patr...@tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>Scratch <scratch@itch.*removethis*.com> wrote in article
><5nto71$aif$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>...
>> patr...@tc.umn.edu says...
>
>> on why your art isn't raising you to the point of being a furry
>> mega-star. Then you turn around and get pissed because someone offered
>> you an opinion which wasn't in praise of your work?
>
>if I told you that what you did was total and utter crap, would you smile
>blissfully and say, "Thank you, Mr. Patrin, I never realized that" or,
>better yet, not even respond and have people think that maybe you don't
>care about your work enough to defend it? Critiques? Those I can deal with,
>but people telling me I'm hopelessly bound to mediocrity because of my
>"cartoonish" style... well, fuck 'em.
>
>
>You suck. There, was that criticism? If not, what makes it a mere insult
>and not criticism? What is there to differentiate between opinion and
>reality? It's, like I said, one thing to tell me "your characters could
>have more motion" or "you could work a bit on getting this species'
>markings down more accurately", and another entirely to say "Fans don't
>like cartoons, it's best to draw more like Terrie Smith".
>
>> learn from, and which parts you can ignore. Generally, when you start
>> hearing the same thing from more then one person, you might want to
>> consider listening to their reasons.
>
>What if they don't have reasons any more rational than the fact that they
>just go for trends or niches- anime, fantasy, pinup- and are bored shitless
>by everything else? Or are just too elitist to really give one-third of a
>shit about any artist that's remained unpublished and obscure?
>
>> your work. There's always someone out there who isn't going to
>> like a particular style, reguardless of how good thousands of
>> other people think it is.
>
>Why not get pissed? It's pretty much a given that I will be anyways.
>'Sides, venting's fun. Hey, you must be pissed at something, too- why else
>would you respond to me?
>
>
>> --
>> "Heed what he says, Shiro. We are in a place where even time and
>> space are stupid" - Tomokato, TSoSC.
>
>-Nate "I must not belong in the fandom if I don't know what 'TSoSC' stands
>for" Patrin
>
TSoSC
stands for
Tremendouse Stupidity of Scented Cigars?
Terrible Slackers on Silly Charlie?
Timewarped Skunks or Smelly Cats?
Buster Charlie
scratch@itch.*removethis*.com (Scratch) wrote:
(snap)
>you're in the clear) However, you has posted that someone e-mailed you
>saying that your art was 'average' and 'unrealistic'. IMHO, I belive
>that those are valid critique points. When you first posted, I did
Average and Unrealistic are NOT valid points, example:
Bob: "Hey Joe, what do you think of this picture, I think there is
something wrong with it."
Joe: "Well bob, here is what I have to say, It looks "Wrong" and "Bad"."
Bob: "What do you mean "Wrong"? Oh I see, all I have to do is make it
right! Thanks to you I know I have to make my art "right" and "Good" in
order to make them not "Wrong" and "Bad"!!!"
Joe: "Exactly! Also you art is "Average" and "unrealistic"!"
Bob: "Ooh! YOu just helped me SOOO MUCH! Know I know I have to be more
"Uniqe" and "Relistic"! Lets see, to be uniqe, we need a 6 foot arm and a
couple more legs and heads. but wait! THATS "Unrealistic!" Okay, we need
more realism!"
*Draws*
Joe: "BUt Its just a human!"
Bob: "But thanks to you, I have a "Relistic" furry, who is so
"Non-average" that he looks like a human!"
Joe: "Ahh, I see!"
I gues I am wrong, vauge terms to help people draw better!
G. Raymond Eddy
Posts about Nate Patrin's Gripe should be posted under "Nate Patrin's
Gripe". Nate's post under this topic was to agree with my assertion that
furry critters should be drawn any darn way you want them to, and to tear
yourself free from the confinements of anatomy and large amounts of
violence.
Now that I mention it, I can hear the words of William Wallace from
/Braveheart/. In one scene, he tells Robert Bruce, "Lead them to freedom,
and they will follow you -- and I will, too."
My way of leading comics readers to freedom is to explore the radical
concept of heroes fighting evildoers without throwing a single punch. I'm
convinced it can be done.
"You've bled with Wallace, now bleed with me!"
--
___________
(_ _ _ G. Raymond Eddy gre...@bright.net
(__ __)__)(_/ 527 1/2 N. Lisbon St. (330) 627-5458
___________/ Carrollton, OH 44615-1121
http://www.bright.net/~greddy/index.htm
Buster Charlie
"G. Raymond Eddy" <gre...@bright.net> wrote:
> Posts about Nate Patrin's Gripe should be posted under "Nate Patrin's
>Gripe". Nate's post under this topic was to agree with my assertion that
>furry critters should be drawn any darn way you want them to, and to tear
>yourself free from the confinements of anatomy and large amounts of
>violence.
Whats wrong with large amounts of violence? I dont have enough violence,
we all dont have enough violence, matter of fact I wish someone would pnch
me right now... *WHACK* oh, thank you! :)
War is hell, spread it around.
Buster Charlie
Michael McGee <mcg...@cadvision.com> wrote:
> In terms of "venting's fun" - you small-minded little shit. Does it
>not occur to you that there are people on the other ends of these posts,
>and that maybe they might be hurt by your words? That the self-same
>people you want to like you are going to be turned off by your venomous
>attitude? That in trying to get people to notice you, you are doing it
>in exactly the wrong way? Look at your posts and replies. How do you
>think people will see you after reading these? Will they see an artist
>who wants to be noticed and respected, and wants to improve? That's not
>what I see. I see yet another person who's in a snarly mood and is
>taking it out on people he doesn't know because they can't really do
>anything back. That is an unbelievably petty attitude.
>
Why stand on a silent platform?
Hey, Don't get down on Nate! Asshole or not (Hey, I'm a asshole, but only
on wendsday) He is da bomb. :)
The point, We are all nasty and petty assholes, you, me, nate, they guy
over there. I get hurt by words, Big shit, Now, that dosent mean that I
like to be flamed, but I figure that if you post "EAT SHIT AND DIE" as a
reply, I might get mad or depressed, but only for a while, then I will get
better and make a ass of myself. Venting is good, otherwise you end up
like me. I MEAN, LOOK AT ME!
Nate is great!
PINE MARTEN!
I LIKE IKE!
YEAH! I SUCK!
Now see. Ranting is cooler than venting!
Jedd Marten
Buster Charlie <Bust...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<5o21eq$f...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>...
> Michael McGee <mcg...@cadvision.com> wrote:
>
> > In terms of "venting's fun" - you small-minded little shit. Does it
> >not occur to you that there are people on the other ends of these posts,
> >and that maybe they might be hurt by your words? That the self-same
> >people you want to like you are going to be turned off by your venomous
> >attitude? That in trying to get people to notice you, you are doing it
> >in exactly the wrong way? Look at your posts and replies. How do you
> >think people will see you after reading these? Will they see an artist
> >who wants to be noticed and respected, and wants to improve? That's not
> >what I see. I see yet another person who's in a snarly mood and is
> >taking it out on people he doesn't know because they can't really do
> >anything back. That is an unbelievably petty attitude.
> >
>
What's the problem? That snarly opinionated character is the Nate we have
come to know and love.
>
> Hey, Don't get down on Nate! Asshole or not (Hey, I'm a asshole, but only
> on wendsday) He is da bomb. :)
>
> The point, We are all nasty and petty assholes, you, me, nate, they guy
> over there.
Yeah, WAY over there...
I get hurt by words, Big shit, Now, that dosent mean that I
> like to be flamed, but I figure that if you post "EAT SHIT AND DIE" as a
> reply, I might get mad or depressed, but only for a while, then I will
get
> better and make a ass of myself. Venting is good, otherwise you end up
> like me. I MEAN, LOOK AT ME!
> Nate is great!
>
> PINE MARTEN!
Yes, I am. Now that's the first FURRY thing you guys have put in this
thread.
Good start!
Scratch
Bust...@hotmail.com says...
>scratch@itch.*removethis*.com (Scratch) wrote:
>(snap)
>>you're in the clear) However, you has posted that someone e-mailed you
>>saying that your art was 'average' and 'unrealistic'. IMHO, I belive
>>that those are valid critique points. When you first posted, I did
>
>Average and Unrealistic are NOT valid points, example:
'Scuse me, I meant to say 'can be valid points'. Obviously, as you
pointed out, it couldn't be used as the whole of one's critique.
IE: 'Disney's The Little Mermaid was only average compared to The Lion
King' or 'your portrayal of the vixen's incredibly huge mammalian
protuberances is unrealistic'. :)
Christopher Maikisch
Scratch (scratch@itch.*removethis*.com) wrote:
: Well, quite obviously just saying 'this sucks' isn't a valid critique...
: (unless we're talking about the Smurfs or My Little Pony, then I think
How *dare* you put down MLP! mYou shall PAY!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
: >> "Heed what he says, Shiro. We are in a place where even time and
: >> space are stupid" - Tomokato, TSoSC.
: >
: >-Nate "I must not belong in the fandom if I don't know what 'TSoSC' stands
: >for" Patrin
Nope... the whole point with quotes is to use something reasonably
obscure in the hopes of luring people into mailing you about them... :{)
And Nate, please chill out. Please? You really *do* belong in the
fandom, and anyone who tells you (or anyone else) that they don't isn't
worth even getting upset at...
Nix!
I may be a deranged nitwit, but I'm a "warm-fuzzy" kind of happy
little deranged nitwit.
--
[ Christopher Maikisch ] >>> Repeal the First Law of Thermodynamics <<<
[ Weird, Crafty, & ] += Pherrit by nature, if not by choice =+
[ Marginally Sane. ] ******* Hail Eris! All hail Discordia! *******
-Knights of Watergate- -AbnorMail Addict- -Creative Hypocrisy Institute-
Scratch
ni...@animal.blarg.net says...
>Scratch (scratch@itch.*removethis*.com) wrote:
>: Well, quite obviously just saying 'this sucks' isn't a valid critique...
>: (unless we're talking about the Smurfs or My Little Pony, then I think
>: you're in the clear) However, you has posted that someone e-mailed you
>
> How *dare* you put down MLP! mYou shall PAY!!! BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Yeah. Like I'm really in terror of being trampled by dozens of tiny
pastel colored hooves. <grin>
Scratch
... And now I've got this TERRIBLE image of My Little Pony meets
The Godfather... Ooohhh... I'm not going to be able to sleep
tonight for the fear of what I may find on the pillow next to me
in the morning. :)
--
Micole The Ermine
In article <01bc79e7$bee1b300$LocalHost@greddy>,
"G. Raymond Eddy" <gre...@bright.net> wrote:
>
> Posts about Nate Patrin's Gripe should be posted under "Nate Patrin's
> Gripe". Nate's post under this topic was to agree with my assertion that
> furry critters should be drawn any darn way you want them to, and to tear
> yourself free from the confinements of anatomy and large amounts of
> violence.
There are several innate problems with this.
1) Animals have form; so do people. What defines us from any other
creature is our anatomy. If you want to draw a dog, you don't want it
looking like a cat. Therefore, some anatomy knowledge must be known to
create a reasonably accurate representation of the creature you are
drawing.
2) Abstractions, be it toons or icons, depend upon a deep-buried
hindbrain knowledge of what 'human' looks like. What separates the
Quasimodos from the rest of humanity is the deformation of the form; he
would never have been seen as a monster if we didn't have that
instinctual understanding of what a 'normal' human looks like. Bugs Bunny
and Mickey Mouse are humans with enhancements; they have physcial
dimensions that correspond to a simplified human. Stick figures work
because we have this indepth understanding. If you are not trying to draw
Ren and Stimpy, you need to follow this template to make it look
'right'... there's no one way, but there are limits to the exaggeration
of the parts.
3) We also hold in internal template of what defines an 'animal', but
this template is not as detailed as the 'human' template, thus it is
easier to create non-human monsters and make them feel real.
Zoiomophics, animal parts mixed with human parts by any other name, are a
blend of the two templates. Moving more towards the abstract (toony)
allows for more variation in style, but it still holds true that you
can't move beyond a certain boundry for the image to be understandable.
If I can recommend any book to all the beginning artists out there, it
would have to be "Understanding Comics". It is the most succinct treatice
on the hows and _whys_ of comics. And while illustrations aren't
necessarily sequential art, the basics in the book hold true for the
one-shots as well.
ermine
home email: khr...@inorbit.com
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Micole The Ermine
In article <01bc795e$f4886f00$b23c5ea0@default>,
"Nate Patrin" <patr...@tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> A), I don't wanna be a "mega-star". I just want recognition. Second of all,
How do you expect recognition to be defined? If it's monetarily, than you
gotta make your art _sellable_... which means you should listen to what
people like in artwork.
> if I told you that what you did was total and utter crap, would you smile
> blissfully and say, "Thank you, Mr. Patrin, I never realized that" or,
Anyone who says "You stuff is totally crap" isn't criticizing it; they
are stating an opinion. If they say, "Your art does not show any dynamics
and needs to be more anatomically consistant" that _is_ criticism. I
didn't see Elf's comments regarding the former, just the later. Then
again, I didn't get the whole, unedited post of Elf's either, so I cannot
put much weight there.
> better yet, not even respond and have people think that maybe you don't
> care about your work enough to defend it? Critiques? Those I can deal with,
How about most people don't bother to respond to poorly done art because
of the very flames you are fanning? If every new artist acted the way you
do, I wouldn't be surprised if all the pro artists stopped lurking here
at all! Why should they, you'll ask for help and then flame them for it.
> but people telling me I'm hopelessly bound to mediocrity because of my
> "cartoonish" style... well, fuck 'em.
I don't believe he said that. It's poor manners to put words in someone
else's mouth that were never there.
> > Yep, and an important element of being an artist is to accept criticism.
>
> You suck. There, was that criticism? If not, what makes it a mere insult
> and not criticism? What is there to differentiate between opinion and
> reality? It's, like I said, one thing to tell me "your characters could
One, that wasn't criticism, that was opinion. Two, mere insults are
_subjective_, criticisms are supposed to be _objective_: do you know the
difference?
There is no relation _at all_ between "opinion" and "reality". Opinion is
one person's feelings. Reality has no place here -- but if you meant
"fact", that's a different subject. Art standards have been defined by
_consensus_ over a period of several thousand years, and while styles
come and go and priorities of what is 'high art' come and go, the basics
remain. This is why we can appreciate a DaVinci masterpiece 500 years
after he painted it. He didn't become a master overnight, either.
> have more motion" or "you could work a bit on getting this species'
> markings down more accurately", and another entirely to say "Fans don't
> like cartoons, it's best to draw more like Terrie Smith".
Again, you are putting words into Elf's mouth that were never there.
> > The important thing about criticism is to learn which parts you can
> > learn from, and which parts you can ignore. Generally, when you start
> > hearing the same thing from more then one person, you might want to
> > consider listening to their reasons.
>
> What if they don't have reasons any more rational than the fact that they
> just go for trends or niches- anime, fantasy, pinup- and are bored shitless
> by everything else? Or are just too elitist to really give one-third of a
> shit about any artist that's remained unpublished and obscure?
How about you are being too stubborn to listen and then _ASK_ what they
meant, if it was obscure to you?
I'm not the only published artist who floats around here, but I am
stubborn enough to want to help folks like you who claim to want the
opinions of folks regarding your art. If you want me to give you
nitty-gritty criticisms AS AN ARTIST, just send me email, okay? I won't
bother doing it on a.f.f...
> Why not get pissed? It's pretty much a given that I will be anyways.
> 'Sides, venting's fun. Hey, you must be pissed at something, too- why else
> would you respond to me?
I'm responding to you because I hope to help you, enlighten you, and
perhaps improve your art. That's not being pissed off, now, is it?
And venting may be fun for you, but in the limited bandwidth of the Net
it's a waste of bytes. There are other ways to vent than to start a
flamewar.
> -Nate "I must not belong in the fandom if I don't know what 'TSoSC' stands
> for" Patrin
I don't know what TSoSC is either, nor do I care. If I wanted to know,
I'd ASK SOMEONE. Is it _really_ that difficult?
Buster Charlie
? the platypus {aka David Formosa}
scratch@itch.*removethis*.com (Scratch) writes:
[...]
>Heh, actually it would be pretty easy to get
>recognition to some degree just by picking some relatively obscure
>animal and concentrating on doing drawings of it...
Platypie pick Platypie. There is a lack of artises prepeared to paint
platypus art.
And for all thouse willing to take up the challenge and draw platypus art
you will recive.
* Pictures of duck billed mammels drawn by such artists as yourself
* The praise of ? the platypus for being willing to take on such a task
* Nothing much else.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay? ex-net.scum and proud
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yukky' a convinceing argument
Nate Patrin
Micole The Ermine <jenn...@toysrus.com> wrote in article
<8664735...@dejanews.com>...
> There are several innate problems with this.
Uh-huh. Knock yerself out:
> 1) Animals have form; so do people. What defines us from any other
> creature is our anatomy. If you want to draw a dog, you don't want it
> looking like a cat. Therefore, some anatomy knowledge must be known to
> create a reasonably accurate representation of the creature you are
> drawing.
So? Tell me what "anatomy knowledge" I'm missing instead of exhorting me to
just "make 'em look more real". Everyone says my art is full of deformed
types who have no basis in real physical appearance. I WANT EXAMPLES.
> 2) Abstractions, be it toons or icons, depend upon a deep-buried
> hindbrain knowledge of what 'human' looks like. What separates the
> Quasimodos from the rest of humanity is the deformation of the form; he
*groan* See above.
> If I can recommend any book to all the beginning artists out there, it
> would have to be "Understanding Comics". It is the most succinct treatice
> on the hows and _whys_ of comics. And while illustrations aren't
> necessarily sequential art, the basics in the book hold true for the
> one-shots as well.
Own it. Worship it. Study it. Any more questions?
> ermine
> home email: khr...@inorbit.com
-Nate "Painfully unlikeable" Patrin
Nate Patrin
> How do you expect recognition to be defined? If it's monetarily, than you
> gotta make your art _sellable_... which means you should listen to what
> people like in artwork.
I don't even mean "commercial". I mean "oh, Nate? I've heard of him. Yeah,
his stuff's cool." There. Is that so damned difficult?
> Anyone who says "You stuff is totally crap" isn't criticizing it; they
> are stating an opinion. If they say, "Your art does not show any dynamics
> and needs to be more anatomically consistant" that _is_ criticism. I
> didn't see Elf's comments regarding the former, just the later. Then
> again, I didn't get the whole, unedited post of Elf's either, so I cannot
> put much weight there.
Personally, (a) he didn't mention a single positive thing about my work
(which, unless there ain't a good thing to say, is usually an important
part of criticism- telling the artist what's /right/ in the illustrations),
and (b) I have a hunch he really didn't look closely at my art in a
chronological sense (another poster told me he was bored by my "constant"
use of "pencil art", even though I haven't uploaded an all-pencil drawing
since January '97 or so.
> How about most people don't bother to respond to poorly done art because
> of the very flames you are fanning?
Poorly done? Oh, thanks-a-fucking-lot.
> If every new artist acted the way you
> do, I wouldn't be surprised if all the pro artists stopped lurking here
> at all! Why should they, you'll ask for help and then flame them for it.
I'd've been a lot more gracious if he hadn't turned into a condescending
snot at the end of his post...
> > but people telling me I'm hopelessly bound to mediocrity because of my
> > "cartoonish" style... well, fuck 'em.
>
> I don't believe he said that. It's poor manners to put words in someone
> else's mouth that were never there.
He SAID "toony art doesn't sell". God DAMN, don't you pay attention?
> > You suck. There, was that criticism? If not, what makes it a mere
insult
> > and not criticism? What is there to differentiate between opinion and
> > reality? It's, like I said, one thing to tell me "your characters could
>
> One, that wasn't criticism, that was opinion. Two, mere insults are
> _subjective_, criticisms are supposed to be _objective_: do you know the
> difference?
Yeah. But like I said, I didn't see Elfy-boy saying anything he /liked/
about my art...
> > have more motion" or "you could work a bit on getting this species'
> > markings down more accurately", and another entirely to say "Fans don't
> > like cartoons, it's best to draw more like Terrie Smith".
>
> Again, you are putting words into Elf's mouth that were never there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah... not like he was exactly giving an accurate appraisal of
my art either.
> I'm not the only published artist who floats around here, but I am
> stubborn enough to want to help folks like you who claim to want the
> opinions of folks regarding your art. If you want me to give you
> nitty-gritty criticisms AS AN ARTIST, just send me email, okay? I won't
> bother doing it on a.f.f...
>
> > Why not get pissed? It's pretty much a given that I will be anyways.
> > 'Sides, venting's fun. Hey, you must be pissed at something, too- why
else
> > would you respond to me?
>
> I'm responding to you because I hope to help you, enlighten you, and
> perhaps improve your art. That's not being pissed off, now, is it?
I dunno. Mail me on how to improve my art- and I want specifics, not just
"learn anatomy". I KNOW anatomy, alright?
> And venting may be fun for you, but in the limited bandwidth of the Net
> it's a waste of bytes. There are other ways to vent than to start a
> flamewar.
>
> I don't know what TSoSC is either, nor do I care. If I wanted to know,
> I'd ASK SOMEONE. Is it _really_ that difficult?
Maybe.
-Nate "Probably beyond hope" Patrin
Micole The Ermine
In article <866537821.306498@cabal>, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa}
<dfor...@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:
> scratch@itch.*removethis*.com (Scratch) writes:
> [...]
> >Heh, actually it would be pretty easy to get
> >recognition to some degree just by picking some relatively obscure
> >animal and concentrating on doing drawings of it...
>
> Platypie pick Platypie. There is a lack of artises prepeared to paint
> platypus art.
You know, I _used_ to draw platypuses... kind of like the way I draw my
Itygryphs. Now, would you like straight platypuses or anthro'ed
platypuses? :3
ermine (feeling silly -- I _like_ platypuses!)
home email: khr...@InOrbit.com
(Hey, here's a pet peeve for you: Why is it that none of the commercial
stuffie makers (Dakin, Gund, etc) put the _tail_ on a platypuss? They
make them look like quadrupedal ducks! The Gund one is cute, too... but
it's got a stubby tail! Auuuuugh! Maybe I should just grab matching
material and _make_ a tail for the Gundpus....)
Christopher Maikisch
Scratch (scratch@itch.*removethis*.com) wrote:
: Yeah. Like I'm really in terror of being trampled by dozens of tiny
: pastel colored hooves. <grin>
>Sigh<... Yeah, it does sound more like a wet-dream than a
nightmare, huh... >wistfully looking off into space<
uh... huh... what?
Nix!
Nate Patrin
Michael McGee <mcg...@cadvision.com> wrote in article
<33A69221...@cadvision.com>...
> See, you can't validly insult my mother, because you know next to
> nothing about her. I, however, have read your posts, perticularly the
> one that got me all-fired mad, and I based my judgement on that.
OK, I was being a dick. There... yeesh. I've said it.
> Mike checks out some of Nate's stuff on SCFA.
> Hey... I thought those were pencil lines, they were so thin! How do
> you get 'em that thin, anyways?
Lately I've been using a .05 drafting pen. (shrug)
> And I have about ten or so of your pics on my Zippy disk. Considering
> that I'm very nitpicky about what I collect... and take this to heart:
> no matter how shitty you consider yourself, you are infinitly better
> than me, who needs a paint program that draws straight lines to get a
> stickman right.
Good point... though I think you'd be good competition for my writing (what
little of it there is).
> > Clean-up in aisle 6... (heh)
>
> Welcome to my job. "Mike, some kid pissed in aisle 11. Go clean it
> up."
Uh-oh. A grocery store vet? Damn. We're crazy, ain't we?
> Sigh... Nate, you missed the point.
Probably. I was busy trying to doodle something and got distracted. Or
somethin'. (Crap, what a sorry excuse.)
> You yourself said that venting was
> fun. And it is. I, however, don't vent on other people. I prefer to
> do it to video games and such, because then no real lasting effect is
> made.
Except on the joysticks of the nearby arcade's Tekken machine, in my case.
"Damn you, Paul Phoenix!" *SNAP* "Oops."
> On the Internet, however, people sometimes forget that they are
> talking to real people, because no voice is heard and no face is seen.
> I was employing what some psychologists call "role reversal" and I call
> "taking your own medicine." What would your opinion be of someone if
> all you heard out of their mouth, or read under their posts, was insults
> and such? I know it's affected my opinion of Sinder to some *small*
> degree.
I shoulda noticed that. Crap.
> If you want people to listen to you and not call you a whiney snot,
> perhaps you should give them a reason to think otherwise. Hell, look at
> the flames I drew for firing off one insult.
Yeah... 8oP>
> > Most of the support I've gotten has been from people in the same boat,
> > who've had the same gripes and the same feelings. Most of the people
> > I've
> > gotten objections from have been painfully condescending, and let's
> > face
> > it- that doesn't help my mood much. Since you probably missed my
> > original
> > post, which reserved most of its vitriol for myself and none for
> > others,
> > you might not understand how asking for help and getting called a
> > whiny
> > little snot can turn one into a psychotic, caffiene-addled nihilist.
>
> You turned into a psychotic, caffine-addled nihilist from reading some
> posts on an Internet newsgroup? Ah, you kids today. When I was your
> age, I didn't have newsgroups! I had to get insulted and degraded in
> person!
Well, they were pretty humiliating posts...
> Cough cough...
> Let's see. My mother's a maniac depressive, my sister's just
> depressive, my father thinks he's got an I.Q. over his weight in pounds
> when it's more closely related to his shoe size, my brother's a twit who
> crashes cars and likes to drink, my boss is a domineering prick, my
> coworkers are insane, I can't afford a car, or college, or even my own
> apartment, my customers couldn't find their ass with both hands and a
> flashlight, I have arthritis in half the joints in my body, my last
> girlfriend I met was on Quake, I haven't had one since, since I have an
> incredibly depressing voice, moles on my face and pimples on my arms. I
> am one of maybe three Liberals in the province of Alberta and probably
> the only one who thinks Canada would be best with Quebec, and I'm
> probably going to have lung cancer by the time I'm 30 because everyone
> who lives with me smokes.
> Your turn!
Uh... you win. (empathy for your shitty job, your political ostracism and
lack of own apartment/car/girlfriend, tho.)
> Nothing I can do to help, apparently. You seem determined to be a
> depressed guy, and it's my experience that when you know someone online
> who's depressed, there's not much that can be done to help them.
Ehhh. Maybe I just had a bad week.
> -Mike (Boss In General of Special High Intensity Training)
> (B.I.G.S.H.I.T.)
*snicker*
-Nate "I'll settle down now... yeef." Patrin
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
jenn...@toysrus.com (Micole The Ermine) wrote
> In article <866537821.306498@cabal>, ? the platypus {aka David Formosa}
> <dfor...@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:
[...]
> > Platypie pick Platypie. There is a lack of artises prepeared to paint
> > platypus art.
>
> You know, I _used_ to draw platypuses...
Yah, good Ermine, good Ermine.
[...]
> Now, would you like straight platypuses or anthro'ed platypuses? :3
I don't care just flood me with platypie.
[...]
> (Hey, here's a pet peeve for you: Why is it that none of the commercial
> stuffie makers (Dakin, Gund, etc) put the _tail_ on a platypuss?
My hand puppet ! the platypus (jozi) as a shortish tail real. There is a
nearby shop that has a life size plush (jozi) platypus wich I drool at on
a regulare basis.
My peave at the moment, the way garry larson draws a platypus, we look
like a duck billed rat!
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. Buy easter bilbies.
Save the ABC Is $0.08 per day too much to pay? ex-net.scum and prouud