FUR: Why furry art should not have owners, by Sibe
Ross Reddick
easier to
copy and modify information. Computers promise to make this easier for
all of us.
Not everyone wants it to be easier. The system of copyright gives
furry art
"owners," most of whom aim to withhold the arts potential benefit from
the rest of the public. They would like to be the only ones who can
copy and modify
the furry art that we smack off to.
The copyright system grew up with printing-a technology for mass
production
copying. Copyright fit in well with this technology because it
restricted only the
mass producers of copies. It did not take freedom away from readers of
books. An
ordinary reader, who did not own a printing press, could copy books
only with pen
and ink, and few readers were sued for that.
Digital technology is more flexible than the printing press: when
information
has digital form, you can easily copy it to share it with others. This
very flexibility
makes a bad fit with a system like copyright. That's the reason for
the increasingly
nasty and draconian measures now used to enforce software copyright.
Consider
these four practices of the Software Publishers Association (SPA):
? Massive propaganda saying it is wrong to disobey the owners to help
your
friend.
? Solicitation for stool pigeons to inform on their coworkers and
colleagues.
? Raids (with police help) on offices and schools, in which people are
told they
must prove they are innocent of illegal copying.
? Prosecution (attempted, at the furnation administrators request) of
people such
as ten from #furryxdcc
All four practices resemble those used in the former Soviet Union,
where every
copying machine had a guard to prevent forbidden copying, and where
individuals
had to copy information secretly and pass it from hand to hand as
samizdat. There
is of course a difference: the motive for information control in the
Soviet Union
was political; in the U.S. the motive is profit. But it is the actions
that affect us, not
the motive. Any attempt to block the sharing of information, no matter
why, leads
to the same methods and the same harshness.
Owners make several kinds of arguments for giving them the power to
control
how we use information:
Name Calling
Owners use smear words such as "piracy" and "theft," as well as expert
terminology
such as "intellectual property" and "damage," to suggest a certain
line of
thinking to the public-a simplistic analogy between furry art and
physical objects.
Our ideas and intuitions about property for material objects are about
whether
it is right to take an object away from someone else. They don't
directly apply to
making a copy of something. But the owners ask us to apply them
anyway.
Exaggeration
Owners say that they suffer "harm" or "economic loss" when users copy
furry art
themselves. But the copying has no direct effect on the owner, and it
harms
no one. The owner can lose only if the person who made the copy would
otherwise
have paid for one from the owner.
A little thought shows that most such people would not have bought
copies. Yet
the owners compute their "losses" as if each and every one would have
bought a
copy. That is exaggeration-to put it kindly.
The Law
Owners often describe the current state of the law, and the harsh
penalties they
can threaten us with. Implicit in this approach is the suggestion that
today's law
reflects an unquestionable view of morality-yet at the same time, we
are urged to
regard these penalties as facts of nature that can't be blamed on
anyone.
This line of persuasion isn't designed to stand up to critical
thinking; it's intended
to reinforce a habitual mental pathway.
It's elementary that laws don't decide right and wrong. Every American
should
know that, forty years ago, it was against the law in many states for
a black person
to sit in the front of a bus; but only racists would say sitting there
was wrong.
Natural Rights
Authors often claim a special connection with art they have created,
and
go on to assert that, as a result, their desires and interests
concerning the artwork
simply outweigh those of anyone else-or even those of the whole rest
of the world.
(Typically companies, not authors, hold the copyrights on art but we
are
expected to ignore this discrepancy.)
To those who propose this as an ethical axiom-the author is more
important
than you I can only say that I, a consumer of furry art myself, call
it bunk.
But people in general are only likely to feel any sympathy with the
natural rights
claims for two reasons.
One reason is an over-stretched analogy with material objects. When I
cook
spaghetti, I do object if someone else eats it, because then I cannot
eat it. His action
hurts me exactly as much as it benefits him; only one of us can eat
the spaghetti,so the question is, which? The smallest distinction
between us is enough to tip the
ethical balance.
But whether you copy or change a story, or piece of art I created
affects you directly and me
only indirectly. Whether you give a copy to your friend affects you
and your friend
much more than it affects me. I shouldn't have the power to tell you
not to do these
things. No one should.
The second reason is that people have been told that natural rights
for authors is
the accepted and unquestioned tradition of our society.
As a matter of history, the opposite is true. The idea of natural
rights of authors
was proposed and decisively rejected when the U.S. Constitution was
drawn up.
That's why the Constitution only permits a system of copyright and
does not require
one; that's why it says that copyright must be temporary. It also
states that the
purpose of copyright is to promote progress-not to reward authors.
Copyright
does reward authors somewhat, and publishers more, but that is
intended as a means
of modifying their behavior.
The real established tradition of our society is that copyright cuts
into the natural
rights of the public-and that this can only be justified for the
public's sake.
Economics
The final argument made for having owners of furry art is that this
leads to production
of more furry art.
Unlike the others, this argument at least takes a legitimate approach
to the subject.
It is based on a valid goal-satisfying the viewers of furry art. And
it is empirically
clear that people will produce more of something if they are well paid
for
doing so.
But the economic argument has a flaw: it is based on the assumption
that the
difference is only a matter of how much money we have to pay. It
assumes that
"production of furry art" is what we want, whether the art has owners
or not.
People readily accept this assumption because it accords with our
experiences
with material objects. Consider a sandwich, for instance. You might
well be able
to get an equivalent sandwich either free or for a price. If so, the
amount you pay
is the only difference. Whether or not you have to buy it, the
sandwich has the
same taste, the same nutritional value, and in either case you can
only eat it once.
Whether you get the sandwich from an owner or not cannot directly
affect anything
but the amount of money you have afterwards.
This is true for any kind of material object-whether or not it has an
owner does
not directly affect what it is, or what you can do with it if you
acquire it.
But if a piece of art has an owner, this very much affects what it is,
and what you
can do with a copy if you buy one. The difference is not just a matter
of money. The
system of owners of furry art encourages furry art owners to produce
something-
but not what society really needs. And it causes intangible ethical
pollution that
affects us all.
What does society need? It needs information that is truly available
to its
citizens-for example, artwork that people can read, fix, adapt, and
improve, notjust view. But what furry artists typically deliver is a
black box that we can't
study or change. This is the beginning of the essay, it is a tad too
long and ruining all my friends' friends pages so lj cut here we go.
Society also needs freedom. When a piece of art has an owner, the
users lose freedom
to control part of their own lives.
As a furry consumer today, you may find yourself buying a comic or a
piece of art that has DO NOT DISTRIBUTE in large letters all over it.
If
your friend asks to make a copy, it would be wrong to refuse.
Cooperation is more
important than copyright. But underground, closet cooperation does not
make for a good society. A person should aspire to live an upright
life openly with pride, and
this means saying "No" to purchasing furry art under such pretenses.
You deserve to be able to cooperate openly and freely with other
people who enjoy furry art. You deserve to be able to learn how the
artist draws, and to teach yourself and others the said skills. You
deserve to be able to hire a furry artist to draw you whatever type of
commission you desire.
You deserve free furry art.
p.s.
Let me open by saying a big HEWWO to the terrorist kadiatcha dancers.
Stay in the shadows. You are cowards. Meet me in real life sometime
and see how far your games get yah :) Luckily you have annoyed the
fuck out of my probation officer to the point that even If I *did* do
something to violate my probation, he wont violate me. So for that I
thank you for the sleu of calls to my p.o.. Mr. Davies however dosent
appreciate it when he has a caseload of over 100 other people who have
committed more serious crimes.
p.p.s.
irc.rizon.net
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p.p.p.s
Nexxus, wookie, Faggot dancers, aeto/kiko, kage, and any of you who
doubt me.
You cannot stop the freedom of the people to share whatever they want.
You cannot stop us Nexxxus. Your too old.
You cannot stop us Marci/Karis. Your too fucked in the head.
You cannot stop us Lance Rund. You spend your 10,000 dollars on a
goldenwolf picture, you dont have money for ASB reprints OR a
retainer. Luckily , we will take care of the asb reprinting for you.
You cannot stop us Further Confusion security. "We walk among you."
To furry artists:
We cannot stop you, you choose to quit. If you dont like drawing
furry art, go work at mcdonalds or something. Whatever floats your
bot.
Um...
www.livejournal.com/users/_ebis_
p.p.p.p.s
Nexxus: What you said to me at that FC party in which you were a drunk
ass , punk ass texican who tried to break a plastic bottle over my
head. You said that if you ever saw me posting furnation magazine
online again you will kill me...
I aint dead yet bitch.
-Sibe
Super B.H.
Interesting article to read.
Brian O'connell
"Ross Reddick" <mytail...@alwayswet.com> wrote in message
news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
> -I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n-
Seraph
Let's assume you're correct.
Now then, we have a problem: Artists who have no reason, nor means to
create art. Why not? Well, if art is free, then the artists don't get
paid. Therefore they don't have any money. So they've got to take up other
jobs and abandon their creativity. This same end goes for writers and
scholars, after all, these are intellectual forms of work, that are not
'tangible' in the traditional sense, as they can be copied and changed
remotely by other people, unlike a peice of furniture or a sculpture.
As a result, artists who survive the loss of their market will revert to the
17th century, where only faint, grainy, tiny photos of their paintings ever
made it out of the studio, copies were never made, and original peices were
sold for exorbitant prices, the priviledge of the rich and elite only.
As was seeded by your same beloved communists; 'The worker shall control the
means of production'. Where are the rights and livings of the workers in
this market? Where do they get theirs?
How do you propose to fix this?
Wanderer
furry art is most often the Creator of the art as well. The worker is worth
his hire, so the Good Book says, and I find no reason to dispute that. It
would be wrong for a person to garner fame and money from the artwork of
another.
2. "Smack off to"? My, aren't we trying to be high-class (and failing
miserably)? Personally, I appreciate furry artwork for the sense of
completeness it gives me, and have no interest in "furotica" beyond the
purely technical.
3. Sibe dances around Godwin's Law only with difficulty in his accusations
against the SPA, even as he uses this dance to distract from how little true
grievance the average furry fan has against the artists of the fandom. The
SPA has nothing to do with furry art, and vice versa.
4. Sibe's use of terminology is inadequate to his attempts at eloquence.
Both "piracy" and "theft" have specific legal meanings, as do "intellectual
property" and "damage", both of which were around long before the computer
software that appears to hold more of his interest than the furry artwork
his rant is supposed to be about.
5. A "little thought" indeed. Very little, as it fails to consider the
effects of copying on trademark and copyright. Also, it is impossible to
say how many people *would* have bought a copy once an unauthorized edition
has made it into exchange.
6. "Blame the authors, *they* made the laws!" Very cute... very wrong, but
very cute. Nice effort to tie copyright to the Jim Crow laws, btw, but
equally false. Laws are decided by the majority of voters and by Congress.
When the majority wish a law to change, it shall be changed. End of
discussion.
7. Companies only hold copyright when such artwork is performed as a "work
for hire". Otherwise, it devolves upon the creator of the work. Likewise,
copyright only affects the right to make copies for profit. Nobody is
seriously proposing that you can't make a copy of a story to share with a
friend. Taking the entire contents of a for-sale magazine and distributing
them to the entire Internet, however, is a violation of copyright under the
"distribution" definition.
8. Authorship was not an issue in the Constitution because it dealt with
direct human rights. Copyright was added later, in response to many court
cases involving the unauthorized copy and sale of books.
9. Note that Sibe considers satisying the viewers to be the only "valid
goal" of any of this. Apparently, economic issues (sales) and ownership
issues (copyright) are to be seen as "invalid". Yet he compares the
*owners* to Communists...
10. A sandwich is a sandwich is *not* a piece of artwork. Each piece of
artwork is different from every other piece... even the two or more versions
of the Mona Lisa differ. As you cannot automatically find an "equivalent"
piece of art, the sandwich analogy is false.
I trust this handles things.
Yours wolfishly,
The trying-to-keep-it-short,
Wanderer
wand...@ticnet.com
"Where am I going? I don't quite know.
What does it matter *where* people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow!
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I* don't know!"
-- a. a. milne
Glen Wooten
Ah, an always interesting response from the "copyrights are bad 'cause
then I'd have to pay for what I'm stealing now" camp. Well, here's a
little response to that which shows the values of copyrights:
----------------------
The Enduring Value of an Enforceable Copyright Law
by Marci Hamilton
In a society that enjoys the benefit of a strong, enforceable copyright law,
it is too easy to forget what life would be like without it.
While my son went to space camp in Huntsville, Alabama last week, the rest
of us went to Nashville, the home of country music and the Country Music
Hall of Fame. The museum is excellent at many different levels, but my
favorite element was the film of television clips showing country music
over the last 50 years. Now, my mother is from Wyoming and my father from
Kentucky, so I was destined to be a country-western music fan. The film
brought back a million childhood memories; it also reminded me why
copyright is such an absolute necessity.
Were it not for copyright's ability to build fences around intangible
goods like lyrics and melodies, a performer like Loretta Lynn would not
have been able to leave Butcher Holler, Kentucky, and share her gifts with
the world. The list of country music stars that have come from humble
beginnings is long, and the best country music never forgets its origins.
The world would have been a lesser place but for copyright's ability to
pave the road for these stars to travel from rags to riches, from hillbilly
country to the big lights. The Country Music Hall of Fame gives you a real
taste of that story as it displays the humble beginnings of some, as well
as the gold-plated piano Priscilla Presley gave to Elvis on their first
wedding anniversary.
In a culture without copyright, only the rich, or the government-sponsored,
could be this culture's full-time creators. Poor artists like Loretta Lynn
would have to flip burgers long into their music careers - and might even
give up on music entirely.
For these reasons, imagining a world without copyright wouldn't just
impoverish the musicians. It would also impoverish the museum, the culture,
and music itself.
----------------------
This was not written by me, it was written by Marci Hamilton, a commentator
for FindLaw (originally published 8/5/03 at
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20030805.html) as part of a larger
article. As this was but an excerpt of a larger article, I could claim "fair
use" (as fair use refers to journalistic review or academic inclusion ONLY),
but since it's only polite, I had previously requested an received permission
to reprint the article. See how hard that was?
Ross (or the troll, whichever) is trying to push the "information yearns to
be free" arguement, which I have no problem with. However, he's mistakenly
identifying published works as "information", which is incorrect. Ask Harlan
Ellsion about that sometime (but make sure to let me know first - it would be
fun to watch - from a safe distance) or see my FAQ on copyrights
(http://www.rexx.com/~jaguar/copyright.html#28) for a more proper definition.
Glen Wooten
_______________________________________________________________
| primary: jag...@rexx.com | secondary: kar...@sbcglobal.net |
_______________________________________________________________
| Terrie & Glen's web page: http://www.rexx.com/~jaguar |
_______________________________________________________________
Chakku
are. The only real issue with your great liberation is that your so short
sited.
Your 'helping' your friend is hurting someone else. Do you think its ok if I
kill you to help out a friend? It will. You want to be so kind as to live up
to your ideals and let me kill you in the most violently entreating way? If
you don't see the flaws with your philosophy I suggest you find another
hobby.
To the slow death of the furry fandom.
Rust
news:c0dua8$4jb$1...@velox.critter.net:
Your arguments are excellent, but they presuppose that Sibe has an agenda
with greater purpose than antisocial attention whoring.
-Rust
eccentric genius
logical debate than the polemic. just an observation.
eccgen
right on sibe.;-)
"Ross Reddick" <mytail...@alwayswet.com> wrote in message
news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
> -I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n-
Francisco Azinsan
Hash: SHA1
Hardly.
All he did was take the text of the document titled 'Why Software Should
Not Have Owners' from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html and
(roughly) change 'software' into 'furry art'
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:38:35 -0600, eccentric genius wrote:
> It seems to me that sibe has a much better grasp of the principles of
> logical debate than the polemic. just an observation.
>
>
> "Ross Reddick" <mytail...@alwayswet.com> wrote in message
> news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
>> Digital information technology contributes to the world by making it
>> easier to copy and modify information. Computers promise to make this
>> easier for all of us. Not everyone wants it to be easier. The system
>> of copyright gives furry art "owners," most of whom aim to withhold the
>> arts potential benefit from the rest of the public. They would like to
>> be the only ones who can copy and modify the furry art that we smack
>> off to. The copyright system grew up with printing-a technology for
>> mass production copying. Copyright fit in well with this technology
>> because it restricted only the mass producers of copies. It did not
>> take freedom away from readers of books. An ordinary reader, who did
>> not own a printing press, could copy books only with pen
>> and ink, and few readers were sued for that.
[ rest trimmed ]
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Ben Zupan
calling at the end of the post really.
I feel sorry for his parole officer....you'd think he'd just hand Sibe off
to a whole other person. So why is Sibe doing this again? Does Sibe get his
jollies from antagonizing the artists of the furry community? Does Sibe live
in the top flat of a pillar-box on baker street? Does he have a hamster for
a side kick and wear....oh...wait...that's Dangermouse! Hey, anyone know if
they put that cartoon to DVD yet? Does anyone remember Dangermouse? It was
such a good cartoon....dry British humor, cowardly side kick, wonderful BBC
programming......
Hey, has it snowed where you guys are? It's been snowing on and off up here
in Central County, Pa for the past week...they actually closed campus
tuesday and friday!
Also, I suggest a good book titled Theodore Rex by Edmund Morris, author of
The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt. I honoestly think that this is the best
autobiography I have ever read!
Hiroshima
Wombat Eat My Flesh
Ross Reddick
>
> by Marci Hamilton
>
> In a society that enjoys the benefit of a strong, enforceable copyright law,
> it is too easy to forget what life would be like without it.
>
Yeah, freedom of information would make the world go broke... riight.
> While my son went to space camp in Huntsville, Alabama last week, the rest
> of us went to Nashville, the home of country music and the Country Music
> Hall of Fame. The museum is excellent at many different levels, but my
> favorite element was the film of television clips showing country music
> over the last 50 years. Now, my mother is from Wyoming and my father from
> Kentucky, so I was destined to be a country-western music fan. The film
> brought back a million childhood memories; it also reminded me why
> copyright is such an absolute necessity.
>
> Were it not for copyright's ability to build fences around intangible
> goods like lyrics and melodies, a performer like Loretta Lynn would not
> have been able to leave Butcher Holler, Kentucky, and share her gifts with
> the world.
Hi.
Welcome to the new century. If it were not for mp3s, people in iraq
can now share their music with people in siberia freely. Im all about
sharing gifts with the world, thats what all this is about.
The list of country music stars that have come from humble
> beginnings is long, and the best country music never forgets its origins.
>
> The world would have been a lesser place but for copyright's ability to
> pave the road for these stars to travel from rags to riches, from hillbilly
> country to the big lights. The Country Music Hall of Fame gives you a real
> taste of that story as it displays the humble beginnings of some, as well
> as the gold-plated piano Priscilla Presley gave to Elvis on their first
> wedding anniversary.
>
> In a culture without copyright, only the rich, or the government-sponsored,
> could be this culture's full-time creators. Poor artists like Loretta Lynn
> would have to flip burgers long into their music careers - and might even
> give up on music entirely.
>
Not true. There are many tangible ways to make money off of music.
First is to throw concerts. Sell tee shirts. Sell CD's. Sell DVD's
of the concerts. Just because someone can give something away for
free, dosent mean that fans won't support the artist. Your agrument is
clearly backwoods bumpking aww huck lets vote for george buch logic.
Move out of the sticks.
> For these reasons, imagining a world without copyright wouldn't just
> impoverish the musicians. It would also impoverish the museum, the culture,
> and music itself.
Published works are information. If your published work could help
someone in another country who may not be able to afford a hard copy
of it, do you deny them the right to help them out vs. Charging some
babyfur in russia $25 american dollars for some babyfur comic? No
wonder furs enjoy #furryxdcc. I believe sharing is caring, sharing
helps. I heard a lot of "Wow I had no idea circles was such a
powerful story, so I bought all four issues at FC."
Thats awesome, support the artists that you like. Dont support the
artists that you dont. Feel free to look into the digital comic shop
that is #furryxdcc. We wont be going away... ever.
Brian O'connell
news:slrnc2la26.f...@velox.critter.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hardly.
>
> All he did was take the text of the document titled 'Why Software Should
> Not Have Owners' from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html and
> (roughly) change 'software' into 'furry art'
And he didn't credit them either, isn't that in itself a violation of the
GPL?
Kyle Fox
[snip stolen RMS manifesto]
Sorry, you have lost already.
- Kay
--
http://kayfox.org/
contact info: http://kayfox.org/contact.html
Linux xheotris 2.4.20-4GB-athlon
4:11pm up 1 day 22:02, 5 users, load average: 0.46, 0.76, 0.66
Ross Reddick
> You act like your some kind of liberator. Perhaps in your diluted mind you
> are. The only real issue with your great liberation is that your so short
> sited.
Sighted.
> Your 'helping' your friend is hurting someone else. Do you think its ok if I
> kill you to help out a friend? It will. You want to be so kind as to live up
> to your ideals and let me kill you in the most violently entreating way? If
> you don't see the flaws with your philosophy I suggest you find another
> hobby.
>
"violently entreating way?"
> To the slow death of the furry fandom.
Cheers motherfucker. Get it straight, if file sharing of commercial
furry product kills the furry fandom , it didnt have life enough in it
to begin with. Hey guess what... I HEARD GRAFFITI ARTISTS DONT GET
PAID FOR WHAT THEY DO
SO THEY ARE GOING TO STOP NOW OKAY!!!!!!!!
Art is done for the sake of art, for the love of the art. If you want
the love of a buck, then get a job. There are many ways to make much
more money then producing furry art. Look at Lance "Richy Bitch"
<thanks mHirtes> Rund and the thousands he blows on furry art. He
dosent draw it any more, hes fucking rich. He just whines about it
being shared for free like furry art is a possession that he owns.
The logic is wrong, your arguments are unreasonable. Did you even
read the fucking essay or was that another tl;dr by a stupid furry
loser.
Go fuck yourself.
Ross Reddick
> Let's assume you're correct.
>
> Now then, we have a problem: Artists who have no reason, nor means to
> create art. Why not? Well, if art is free, then the artists don't get
> paid. Therefore they don't have any money. So they've got to take up other
> jobs and abandon their creativity. This same end goes for writers and
> scholars, after all, these are intellectual forms of work, that are not
> 'tangible' in the traditional sense, as they can be copied and changed
> remotely by other people, unlike a peice of furniture or a sculpture.
>
Exaggeration
Owners say that they suffer "harm" or "economic loss" when users copy
furry art
themselves. But the copying has no direct effect on the owner, and it
harms
no one. The owner can lose only if the person who made the copy would
otherwise
have paid for one from the owner.
A little thought shows that most such people would not have bought
copies. Yet
the owners compute their "losses" as if each and every one would have
bought a
copy. That is exaggeration-to put it kindly.
> As a result, artists who survive the loss of their market will revert to the
> 17th century, where only faint, grainy, tiny photos of their paintings ever
> made it out of the studio, copies were never made, and original peices were
> sold for exorbitant prices, the priviledge of the rich and elite only.
Right, for example the golden wolf piece that sold for 10,000 bucks.
Who knows what the hell it even looked like? I dont, I got my badge
ganked in the first 3 hours of the con. However, I dont think lance
is going to scan it for us so we can also enjoy his art. In a comic
store, you are able to peruse comics and look at their wares (not
warez) , view the art and decide if you want to make a purchasing
decision. On the internet , in #furryxdcc on irc.rizon.net, it is
more like a comic shop. You can read through all the comics all day if
you choose to and not buy a damn thing, or you can go to
rabbitvalley.com and purchase hard copies of the stories that you have
come to love. The choice is yours. Those who dont pay, wouldnt have
paid anyways.
> As was seeded by your same beloved communists; 'The worker shall control the
> means of production'. Where are the rights and livings of the workers in
> this market? Where do they get theirs?
Im not a communist. What the fuck is this the 1950s? You fuckin
commie! Artists make money by producing more art. If its corny , or
poorly made, the people who download it first will see that , and not
make a purchasing decision. This will only cause furry artitss to
either innovate beyone producing the same crap year after year or,
those who produce quality crap will be treated to big ticket sales.
Good job goldenwolf proving that furry art can be a profitable full
time job. You too j bernal. Good work guys. You think idiots like
Lance Rund are going to quit blowing ten thousand fucking dollars on
bullshit poses of werewolves just because someone can download it? No.
> How do you propose to fix this?
Well shit dude, quit drawing furry art and make fursuits. At least
then when people take pictures of your creation you wont get pissed.
i.e. pictures of your creating getting fucked by dogs / wolves / ugly
fat dudes etc....
ShujinTribble
<<SNIP basically crap>>
Folks, I've been reading all this in, and it boils down to one simple
principle to me:
(C) means (C) - Period. that's the law. If you don't like it, change the
law.
Stop pissing and moaning your "right" to other person's hard work.
If the artist says "Public Domain" or the artist is dead (what? 99
years?) or
the art is 75 years old... then sure! Have at it. Otherwise, mits off!
I say, lets just do it the right way - Alaska, was it? Hope you're
watching over and
finding your info for this guy. Let's just tank their collective asses
and be done with it.
*I*, for one, will be happy when he's gone.
--
Shujin Tribble
Spamer (SPAH-muhr) n. - A sub-class of netizen that should have his/her testicles and/or nipples connected to his/her computer's power supply (after said power supply has been hevilly modified to produce 12,000 VAC @ 49.3 Amp)
"I may have invented control-alt-delete, but Bill Gates made it really famous,"
David Bradley at the twentieth anniversary of the PC.
iBuck
Why? what have you done for me that I should -give- you the results of my
labor, I -don't- have to show it to anybody, and if you -agree- to limit you
distribution as terms of sale, that's between you and me, and I'll treat you
as the lying oathbreaker that you are..
"You can have it Quickly,Correct, Complex - Pick 2"
Ross Reddick
when you tackled me and tickled me on camera at FC ? That was good
times :) On to the rebuttal!!!!
"Wanderer" <wand...@ticnet.com> wrote in message news:<102l118...@corp.supernews.com>...
> 1. Sibe ignores, in the first part of his rant, that the "owner" of the
> furry art is most often the Creator of the art as well. The worker is worth
> his hire, so the Good Book says, and I find no reason to dispute that. It
> would be wrong for a person to garner fame and money from the artwork of
> another.
The worker is worth his hire. However Im not going to give a ditch
digger royalties on how creatively he dug his ditch. Or prevent his
counterpart from using his ditch digging knowledge to dig his own
ditches faster. If your last sentence was true well...
Anyone who samples music in the hip-hop culture is wrong. Espically
puffy who rips the whole idea off to make it hiphop.
> 2. "Smack off to"? My, aren't we trying to be high-class (and failing
> miserably)? Personally, I appreciate furry artwork for the sense of
> completeness it gives me, and have no interest in "furotica" beyond the
> purely technical.
Beginning with character assination... well hey at least you take it
personally.
Buddy the completeness that it gives you, you want in your pocket.
You line your pocket with producing porn if you want money. Beyond
the purely technical? Jesus dude who chopped off your nutsac? You
really think anyone is believing you?
> 3. Sibe dances around Godwin's Law only with difficulty in his accusations
> against the SPA, even as he uses this dance to distract from how little true
> grievance the average furry fan has against the artists of the fandom. The
> SPA has nothing to do with furry art, and vice versa.
SPA has to do with intellectual rights to computer software. I was
drawing a parallell to that, and furry art. In the end its all ones
and zeros buddy.
> 4. Sibe's use of terminology is inadequate to his attempts at eloquence.
> Both "piracy" and "theft" have specific legal meanings, as do "intellectual
> property" and "damage", both of which were around long before the computer
> software that appears to hold more of his interest than the furry artwork
> his rant is supposed to be about.
Hey maybe you can relate to this, or did that not tough a nerve. Back
in the 50's black americans were not allowed to sit in certian areas
on the bus. Nor were they allowed to drink from certian water
fountians. The "law" looked the other way as they were lynched for
just the color of thier skin.
The law is wrong.
> 5. A "little thought" indeed. Very little, as it fails to consider the
> effects of copying on trademark and copyright. Also, it is impossible to
> say how many people *would* have bought a copy once an unauthorized edition
> has made it into exchange.
Wow, name calling again. Hey start out with "YOUR A FUCKING RETARD
LOL"
At least you could spare us the fake eloquence that you try to
protray. Obviously your better then me, get over it.
When napster was at its peak popularity, record sales were at their
all time high.
> 6. "Blame the authors, *they* made the laws!" Very cute... very wrong, but
> very cute. Nice effort to tie copyright to the Jim Crow laws, btw, but
> equally false. Laws are decided by the majority of voters and by Congress.
> When the majority wish a law to change, it shall be changed. End of
> discussion.
Woah, thats right. The majority. Hey when the majority want to elect
a president, hes elected right?
Right?
Special intrest groups and corporate interests dont have anything to
do with that... right right? End of discussion? Fuck you asshole.
> 7. Companies only hold copyright when such artwork is performed as a "work
> for hire". Otherwise, it devolves upon the creator of the work. Likewise,
> copyright only affects the right to make copies for profit. Nobody is
> seriously proposing that you can't make a copy of a story to share with a
> friend. Taking the entire contents of a for-sale magazine and distributing
> them to the entire Internet, however, is a violation of copyright under the
> "distribution" definition.
No shit. Glad you passed the bar.
> 8. Authorship was not an issue in the Constitution because it dealt with
> direct human rights. Copyright was added later, in response to many court
> cases involving the unauthorized copy and sale of books.
No shit.
> 9. Note that Sibe considers satisying the viewers to be the only "valid
> goal" of any of this. Apparently, economic issues (sales) and ownership
> issues (copyright) are to be seen as "invalid". Yet he compares the
> *owners* to Communists...
Satisfying viewers ... isnt that what furry artists do? Is the
quality of furry art equal to how many people, hyoomans and furs
orgasam because of it? I think so :) gg sexyfur.com
> 10. A sandwich is a sandwich is *not* a piece of artwork. Each piece of
> artwork is different from every other piece... even the two or more versions
> of the Mona Lisa differ. As you cannot automatically find an "equivalent"
> piece of art, the sandwich analogy is false.
Right, however, you clearly in all of your wisdom missed the point of
that paragraph. I think it went a little over your head, let me try
again. Furry art is the same, weather its purchased or not. Period
:) Digital copies can bring the same value to somone as the purchased
product.
> I trust this handles things.
>
Like what, your huge wolfcock?
> Yours wolfishly,
Wolfishly? Retard.
> The trying-to-keep-it-short,
Trust be suga, its short.
> Wanderer
> wand...@ticnet.com
Sibe
sibe the evil husky at hotmail.com
iBuck
>sharing gifts with the world, thats what all this is about.
It's not sharing its distribution, as much as you whine about people saying
'theft' let me also put the term sharing to the same sword, sharing is though
of as a laudable effort, for the same reason that theft is regarded as an
evil, when you -share- you are voluntarilly giving up, something that you migh
have otehrwise used for yourself. If you -lose- nothing in passing a file
aroung you have no more gained anything, than an artist has lost it.
You're distributing works, that you were granted access to, on the conditon
that you not distribute them, not sharing gifts freely given.
I'll call you what you are.. oathbreaker..
iBuck
>all time high.
So was the economy...
MHirtes
mytail...@alwayswet.com (Ross Reddick) wrote:
>
> Right, for example the golden wolf piece that sold for 10,000 bucks.
Ten THOUSAND bucks??
WTF???
What kind of an OVERPAID RETARD is going to piss away THAT much money on
a furry object??
People are STARVING out there. Can you imagine how many families could
have been fed with 10 grand?
(shakes head in shock and horror) The idea of someone just having ten
thousand dollars just sitting around the house and blowing it all away
on some fanboy object disturbs me no end! I don't care if it's made of
gold or even mithril! Spending that much money on something that doesn't
even have wheels is just plain SICK!
And the thing that's even more disturbing is that this atrocity is going
to set yet another bad precedent for other artists out there to get
greedy and jack up their prices through the roof, thus locking out the
average schmoes like me from ever being able to afford anything. Looking
at the INSANE-O prices that Dr. Comet's stuff goes for on Furbid
verifies this POV.
I know you're all going to hate me for saying it (like, as if you loons
didn't wished me dead already), but maybe Sibe's efforts DO serve a
benign purpose in at least helping the NON-filthy stinking rich to have
access to a lot of these materials that they otherwise would not be able
to see. If people can have a peek at what's out there, they can sort the
GOOD stuff from the HORRID DREK and be able to use their limited funds
to purchase the stuff they liked.
IMO, some artists (you know who you are) have been running a "you won't
know if it's any good until you buy a copy, and by then it's too late to
do anything about it, SUCKER!" racket & taking advantage of fans'
ignorance for far too long, and it's high time something was done to
help the buyer protect himself from wasting his money on garbage*.
Artists shouldn't bitch & moan about Sibe, because it's their own greed
that have caused this situation to happen.
*the 2nd Steve Martin CD is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
What a FLAMING PIECE OF SHIT that thing is!
Ken Pick
> Ah, an always interesting response from the "copyrights are bad 'cause
> then I'd have to pay for what I'm stealing now" camp.
> Ross (or the troll, whichever) is trying to push the "information yearns to
> be free" arguement, which I have no problem with. However, he's mistakenly
> identifying published works as "information", which is incorrect. Ask Harlan
> Ellsion about that sometime (but make sure to let me know first - it would be
> fun to watch - from a safe distance) or see my FAQ on copyrights
> (http://www.rexx.com/~jaguar/copyright.html#28) for a more proper definition.
>
> Glen Wooten
Anyone out there have the contact info for Sibe's probation officer?
And the conditions of his probation?
Remember -- from when his roomie's wallet, credit cards, and car
"yearned to be free"?
And does showing up at FC and doing this thread qualify as a probation
violation? Let's find out...
David Lazerous
National Guard, beats up on sickly thin little guys, and is a child
molester. Who are you to hold dominion over someone's creation? Most of my
art is free but if someone wants something custom, I charge. The same is
for most any service. You argument also says that if I want work on my car
done, it should be free, because automobiles were built for the betterment
of all. Bull shit. According to you, I shouldn't pay for books, I should
just take them. Or I should just put a bullet in you because (believe me)
it would be for the best. You're argument is flawed; there is no logic to
it. What you are describing is an egalitarian anarchy where if you think
you deserve something, you should just take it. What's really sad is that
you actually believe the sewage you spout out at length. The truth is you
are a sad little boy who no one likes and is forced to respond to you're own
messages using pseudonyms just to make others think that you have
supporters. If you want free furry art, why don't you just take a few
classes and learn how to do it yourself, then you can give it away all you
want.
-You know who-
Iller
"eccentric genius" <ecc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:yowWb.53$Mf.28@okepread04...
> It seems to me that sibe has a much better grasp of the principles of
> logical debate than the polemic. just an observation.
> eccgen
> right on sibe.;-)
>
That you GermParrot?
Whoever it is, it's obvious he's just another of Sibe's
Ass-Pals along for the ride. All y'all motherfuckers
need to shutup and stop crossposting this dead horse.
It's not a debateable issue if no one's position ever
changes from the results of it. Ain't no one gonna
come around on this and say "hey, maybe you're
right"...especially not the homo with the criminal record.
Chakku
of course I don't post art here ever. Hmm. Well I guess everything is
relational.
mouse
news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com:
God, you guys are fucking DUMB.
Half this groups got me killfiled for whatever reason, people constantly
call other people trolls and whatnot...
And then - a post by Sibe, talking about art should be free has got 25
responses in 24 hours
fuckin retards
The Burned Out One!
things to ponder about this....
Now I know this goes against the "Don't feed the Trolls" stuff but these are
just some points I like to make.
1)Sibe is an asshole plain and simple to me. I mean it just flat out
appears to me that he or one of his followers is begging for someone to
shove a big, fat one in his mouth for him/her/whom ever to suck on.
2)Most of this stuff just plain boils down to respect. For me, it is
respect for the artists who bust their balls to put out all this art. I
mean 75 percent of you all out there probably don't know how many hours some
of these artists out there put in to learn stuff like how to just a
symetrical face without erasing a hole through the paper, or how much it
costs to get just the right type of ink to set off the shading effect just
right. Better yet, the money they use to buy computer to run the right
graphics package......
3)Again, Sibe is an annoying little asshole.
4)Here is a big hint for some of the piraters/kiddies out there. Respect is
a two-way street. Don't be all whiney and bitchy when you fail to respect
the rights of other's work when they or some of the more devoted furry fans
out there (or maybe even laywers from Furnation or Radio Comix) find you and
teach you the hard way. I look at this entire thread and some are just me,
me, me..... my, my, my. what about the artist? I know alot of very
excellent furry artists and comic creators out there who will never again
post anything on the net because they get their art stolen, pirated, etc....
Well that is just my two cents on this.... either way, love it or hate it..
Oh by the way, did I forget to mention that Sibe is an asshole? Good, just
checking.
The Burned Out One!
Wanderer
news:Xns948D337...@204.152.189.149...
<snip>
> And then - a post by Sibe, talking about art should be free has got 25
> responses in 24 hours
>
<snip>
If you want notoriety, Mouse, you have to take risks. Since Sibe is doing
something illegal, with patent disregard for the law (though I'm sure he'll
violate the patent when he gets a chance;), he's a lot more infuriating than
your tiny murine musings could ever be. Therefore, he excites a larger
response. Degree of stimulus = degree of response. Simple.
Oh, and trim your headers next time. Don't want to crosspost
inappropriately...
Yours briefly,
The wolfish,
mouse
news:102m7r7...@corp.supernews.com:
> "mouse" <mo...@blackvault.com> wrote in message
"Wanderer" <wand...@ticnet.com> wrote in
news:102m7r7...@corp.supernews.com:
> Oh, and trim your headers next time. Don't want to crosspost
> inappropriately...
Ill crosspost where ever I please
mouse
news:c0f5sp$19iv$1...@velox.critter.net:
> Okay usually I don't say much in these newsgroup but I got a small
> list of things to ponder about this....
>
> Now I know this goes against the "Don't feed the Trolls" stuff but
> these are just some points I like to make.
>
> 1)Sibe is an asshole plain and simple to me. I mean it just flat out
> appears to me that he or one of his followers is begging for someone
> to shove a big, fat one in his mouth for him/her/whom ever to suck on.
>
> Well that is just my two cents on this.... either way, love it or hate
> it..
> The Burned Out One!
Yeah, well he is posting this shit to earn brownie points with whoever for
starting drama - so he's already lookin good...good job guys
He IS an asshole, but my point was that people repsonding angrily to his
fucking boring manifesto (or whatever the fuck that was) is just stupid.
Sibe does not give a flying fuck if artists dont want thier art uploaded.
You cant stop him, because he is probably not uploading any of it himself -
hes just a figurehead for that IRC channel ..so good luck doing anything
about it.
If he is participating the funny thing is, he is most likely still on
probation. If you participate in any criminal activity while you are on
probation they will throw you directly into jail. Ive never been on
probation, but I've had tons of friends who were, and I personally had an
ACD for 3 years for criminal mischief.
Wanderer
news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
> when you tackled me and tickled me on camera at FC ? That was good
> times :) On to the rebuttal!!!!
Sorry, no. Untoasted whitebread here.:> Sirius-ly, you couldn't have been
fur-ther off if you'd tried.
> The worker is worth his hire. However Im not going to give a ditch
> digger royalties on how creatively he dug his ditch. Or prevent his
> counterpart from using his ditch digging knowledge to dig his own
> ditches faster. If your last sentence was true well...
A ditch is a ditch is not a piece of artwork. One ditch is just like
another... a hole in the ground. The digger cannot make copies of his ditch
to sell... it is a work-for-hire, and thus owned by the people who pay him.
(If he digs a ditch on his own time, however, that is a private work.)
>
> Anyone who samples music in the hip-hop culture is wrong. Espically
> puffy who rips the whole idea off to make it hiphop.
Statement incorrect. According to precedent, the sampling of other music,
as long as it does not make up a significant portion of the original
product, is permissible under "fair use". "Fair use" indicates that it is
permissible to use quotes or portions of a work, so long as it does not make
up a significant portion of either the original or the new product.
> Beginning with character assination... well hey at least you take it
> personally.
Hardly. In my family, we treat the language with respect. If you mean to
say "jerk off", "jack off", "wank", or "masturbate", then by all means say
so. "Smack off to" is a non-standard usage, and inaccurate in this context.
I no more take your mistake personally than I am offended by the bird that
drops excrement upon my mother's car each morning... it is inconveient, but
not truly malicious. Merely a fact of your nature that you are incapable of
utilising standard English without such a blatant error.
> Buddy the completeness that it gives you, you want in your pocket.
> You line your pocket with producing porn if you want money. Beyond
> the purely technical? Jesus dude who chopped off your nutsac? You
> really think anyone is believing you?
First, I should inform you that MFM has a running question of whether I'm a
gay man or a transsexual female. I'm neither... just a boy raised by his
mother along with an older and a younger sister. Nobody cut it off... I'm
as interested in desirable females as any other horny male.:> But when
you're raised by your mother, you just don't act like a typical guy.
Second, I find nothing desirable about pictures. If I can't have it, why do
I want a picture of it? I get enough frustration in my life... who needs to
double his sexual angst? Give me a living female, with nice, round curves
and a beautiful laugh, a brilliant mind and a loving heart. You can't get
*that* in pictures.
> SPA has to do with intellectual rights to computer software. I was
> drawing a parallell to that, and furry art. In the end its all ones
> and zeros buddy.
And in the end we're all meat and bones, but I think you'd get in trouble
for selling me as hamburger. Your argument is flawed by its ignorance of
the creative effort. It may all be ones and zeroes, but arranging the ones
and zeroes in the right way takes a lot of work.
> Hey maybe you can relate to this, or did that not tough a nerve. Back
> in the 50's black americans were not allowed to sit in certian areas
> on the bus. Nor were they allowed to drink from certian water
> fountians. The "law" looked the other way as they were lynched for
> just the color of thier skin.
>
> The law is wrong.
Sorry, I'm still white.:) If you feel the law is wrong, you are welcome to
become the Martin Luther King, Jr. of informational freedom (assuming your
activities do not upset your parole officer). It was by his peaceful
protests that the day was won... not by the fire hurled from the pulpit by
Malcolm X. If you believe in your cause, lobby. Otherwise, you lie... you
have no true commitment to the cause.
> Wow, name calling again. Hey start out with "YOUR A FUCKING RETARD
> LOL"
I do not use such vulgar language until truly pressed beyond endurance. The
use of profanity shows a limited intellect, I feel.
> At least you could spare us the fake eloquence that you try to
> protray. Obviously your better then me, get over it.
You said it, not me.:> As for "fake" eloquence, I wouldn't know. I really
talk this way. Ask Tyger Cowboy.:>
>
> When napster was at its peak popularity, record sales were at their
> all time high.
And prices were much lower. Your point?
> Woah, thats right. The majority. Hey when the majority want to elect
> a president, hes elected right?
>
> Right?
Statement only partially correct. A President of the United States is
elected by the Electoral College, not by the people themselves. Your
opinion of George Bush is noted, however tangential it may be to the matter
at paw. (If you're interested, I'm hoping for Dean.;)
>
> Special intrest groups and corporate interests dont have anything to
> do with that... right right? End of discussion? Fuck you asshole.
I reiterate my previous comment about profanity. If you cannot think of any
words to argue with me, you could just say so instead of reaching into your
meager store of vulgar language. Either that, or go to a bar and pick up
some new words.
> No shit. Glad you passed the bar.
Sorry, I'm far too empathic to be a lawyer.:> I see you couldn't think of
anything to say, again...
> No shit.
My, aren't we repetitive? And to think your mother spooned pablum into that
mouth... my, she must be proud...
> Satisfying viewers ... isnt that what furry artists do? Is the
> quality of furry art equal to how many people, hyoomans and furs
> orgasam because of it? I think so :) gg sexyfur.com
Statement invalid. Art has many purposes, few of which are related to the
viewer's happiness. Some art is produced for money; its purpose is to make
a sale. Some art is produced to convey a message or image; its purpose is
to communicate. Some art is produced to specifications; its purpose is to
satisfy the customer.
At its heart, however, art is a medium of communication and creative
endeavour. The purpose of art is art.
> Right, however, you clearly in all of your wisdom missed the point of
> that paragraph. I think it went a little over your head, let me try
> again. Furry art is the same, weather its purchased or not. Period
> :) Digital copies can bring the same value to somone as the purchased
> product.
Unauthorized distribution, on the other paw, brings *no* value to the
artists involved. Their copyright is violated, their trademark invalidated
by the action, as they no longer control the work. If the worker is worth
his hire, then should not the artist receive his due for the hours of
frustration and stress that they endure to bring forth the works we enjoy?
If the picture has worth, should not the artist receive its value? You seek
to paint theft with glory's brush, never caring what laws and mores you
violate. You, sir, are a cad and a scoundrel, a blackguard and a wastrel.
You are an immoral creature, ungifted by art or science, and seeking to
taint them with your vile presence as somehow unworthy of your "lofty"
personage. You are Caliban seeking to corrupt Miranda, and people the isle
with Calibans. You are monster and villain, glorying in your vileness and
uncaring of its consequences. You are the vastness of Nothing, incapable of
being filled, and seeking only to bring down all that is your better. May
you be visited by the Pox, sir, and may it find in your loins an eternal
home. And, sirrah, should the either of us find that longed-for place
wherein the Code Duello still holds sway, I reserve the right of Challenge.
For you, sir, would be worth the risk to end such depravity and villainy.
Yours in dudgeon most high,
The entirely-serious,
Wanderer
news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
> Right, for example the golden wolf piece that sold for 10,000 bucks.
> Who knows what the hell it even looked like? I dont, I got my badge
> ganked in the first 3 hours of the con.
<snip>
To begin with, here's more about that piece:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/goldenwolfen/78951.html#cutid1
And here's what it looked like:
http://www.goldenwolfen.com/temp/eotn-framed.jpg
Say hello to the open market: Somebody wanted the piece, "Eyes of the
Night", so badly that they were willing to pay $10,000 dollars for it. If
she so chooses, GoldenWolf may now command higher prices for her work, and
even get commercial work based on this figure. What one person has pid
$10,000 for, another may as well.
Yours logically,
The wolfish,
PlanetFur
> Say hello to the open market: Somebody wanted the piece, "Eyes of the
> Night", so badly that they were willing to pay $10,000 dollars for it. If
> she so chooses, GoldenWolf may now command higher prices for her work, and
> even get commercial work based on this figure. What one person has pid
> $10,000 for, another may as well.
Some people may not feel artists are worth what others pay for them.
That's fine.
One rule of writing: It never matters what anyone thinks but the editor
who's willing to pay for your work.
Artists have a similar rule: It doesn't matter whether someone else
won't pay that much for your work, if there's another person behind him
with the check.
There should be a mention, too, of the worth of an artist in the
professional, commercial field. There are some artists out there who
aren't quite as good as those who aren't in the commercial realm yet.
But there's probably two very good reasons why those people are earning
the checks:
They meet deadlines
They can do the work
Sometimes that's all it takes to get the big bucks.
Just some musings.
Akai
"Ross Reddick" <mytail...@alwayswet.com> wrote in message
news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
For a lot of people art *is* their job. The more talented artists out there
make a living producing art for the mainstream, furry art being more of a
hobby for them, but a source of income nonetheless. Maybe if you actually
created something you'd understand that.
--Akai
Ross Reddick
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:16:20 -0800, Ross Reddick wrote:
>
> [snip stolen RMS manifesto]
>
> Sorry, you have lost already.
>
> - Kay
I dont understand kay, how have I lost allready. Also, you are a
loser kay. A slut, a loser, your ugly, anti social... I mean yeah I
got problems but bro, you were definately not gifted in the looks or
brains dept. Also you are the same kay that hangs out on
irc.codenix.net in #furryunderground. Maybe you are mad that
#furryxdcc is easily 6 times the size of the entire codenix network at
any given moment? Maybe those on furnet.org are mad that #furryxdcc
is at any given moment larger then the most popular channel on furnet?
It is difficult to see why you try to argue kay, because you are a
retard.
- Ross Reddick a.k.a. Sibe
Supervised by Dan Davies of the Washington County Probation and Parole
Dept
Represented by Michael Starpoly attny. at law in the case where
Brian Floyd was a victim
p.s.
Kaditcha man hi :)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3193614467d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=QAPCb.21588%24aF2.2401240%40news20.bellglobal.com
When did you decide to ganer acceptance amongst us nerdy pathetic
losers known as furrys? Have you sunk so low?
Akai
Yet you keep hanging around here amidst the people you hate. Must not be
very happy if you don't have something to bitch about. And as far as flamers
go you're not even half as exciting as what we've had visit this newsgroup
in the past. Pathetic.
--Akai
eccentric genius
btw, I didn't mean to imply I agreed with his conclusions, just that he is
arguing well for it. I actually don't agree at all with his conclusions, I
just happen to be into rhetoric as an art.
regards,
eccgen
"eccentric genius" <ecc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yowWb.53$Mf.28@okepread04...
> It seems to me that sibe has a much better grasp of the principles of
> logical debate than the polemic. just an observation.
> eccgen
> right on sibe.;-)
>
>
> "Ross Reddick" <mytail...@alwayswet.com> wrote in message
> news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
> > p.p.s.
> > irc.rizon.net
> > #furryxdcc "I told you we would be number one"
> > [10:08:02] [+Blackwulf] XDCC Server Active Sends:2/2 Queues:1/4
> > [10:08:02] [+Blackwulf] Current BW:9.2 Kbs Record CPS:16.5 Kbs by
> > Eira
> > [10:08:03] [+Blackwulf] #1 104 MB Brian O'Connel - Furry-Art CD -
> > (please reshare! >^.^<) - (16 gets)
> > [10:08:04] [+Blackwulf] #2 50.9MB Animal Magnetism #1 (complete; gif
> > only) - (9 gets)
> > [10:08:04] [+Blackwulf] #3 3.27MB Freddy Anderson - Cross Breeding
> > Problems Portfolio - (36 gets)
> > [10:08:05] [+Blackwulf] #4 7.47MB Skunkworks - Hot Pussy - Portfolio
> > (1999) - (29 gets)
> > [10:08:05] [+Blackwulf] #5 8.47MB Rare Breed #1 (resized) - (1 gets)
> > [10:08:06] [+Blackwulf] #6 9.26MB Steve Martin - Fantastic_and_Furry
> > (first 80 pics) - (16 gets)
> > [10:08:07] [+Blackwulf] #7 12.5MB Genus Male #3 (New Hires Version
> > from Bloodstrype) - (5 gets)
> > [10:08:09] [+Blackwulf] #8 39.6MB Happy Tree Friends (36 Episodes +
> > 6 Kringles + 7 Smoochies) - (22 gets)
> > [10:08:10] [+Blackwulf] #9 3.86MB The Ups & Downs of Anthropomorphic
> > Relationsships - NEW (including the 2 pages missing in
> > "[fxc]_Skunkworks_UpsAndDowns.rar" + Alternate page 24 - (38 gets)
> > [10:08:10] [+Blackwulf] #10 18.8MB Genus: Anubis - Dark Desire (BMP
> > -> JPG) ~ 1300x2000 - (6 gets)
> > [10:08:11] [+Blackwulf] #11 2.61MB ZigZag - going down on memory
> > lane (Max Blackrabbit) - (40 gets)
> > [10:08:12] [+Blackwulf] #12 4.58MB New Generation - Comic by Max
> > Blackrabbit (old ^^) - (49 gets)
> > [10:08:14] [+Blackwulf] Served:3.95GB Packs Offered:12
> > [10:08:15] [+Blackwulf] MOTD: -= *mew* Im back! Whats your excuse?
> > =-
> > [10:08:15] [+Blackwulf] Type:/ctcp Blackwulf XDCC Send #<pack number>
> > -I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n-
> >
> > [10:06:48] [+FurXDCC006] ** 5 packs ** 0 of 1 slot open, Queue: 0/10,
> > Record: 26.0KB/s
> > [10:06:48] [+FurXDCC006] ** Bandwidth Usage ** Current: 24.0KB/s,
> > Record: 91.6KB/s
> > [10:06:48] [+FurXDCC006] ** To request a file type: "/msg FurXDCC006
> > xdcc send #x" **
> > [10:06:48] [+FurXDCC006] #1 39x [7.8M]
> > [fxc]_SexyFur_GrindMagazine.rar
> > [10:06:48] [+FurXDCC006] #2 27x [ 77M] [fxc]Circles1to4.rar
> > [10:06:48] [+FurXDCC006] #3 15x [ 47M] [fxc]Foxxfire_Addendum_CD.rar
> > [10:06:48] [+FurXDCC006] #4 7x [ 12M]
> > [fxc]_Genus_Male__3_By_Bloodstrype.rar Genus Male #3 Re-Rip NEW
> > 1/27/04
> > [10:06:56] [+FurXDCC006] #5 8x [ 63M]
> > [fxc]Furry_Artists_Partnership_Retail_CD.rar 20 Dollar retail cd sold
> > at FC '04 Artists: Fennec, Foxxfire ,GreenMonkey, Grrwolf, Guppy, Ian
> > R. Soulfox, NaniMoose and Wookie NEW 1/29/04
> > [10:06:56] [+FurXDCC006] Total Offered: 207.1 MB Total Transferred:
> > 3.98 GB
> >
> > [10:04:54] [+FoxBawt] XDCC Server Active Sends:1/2 Queues:0/5
> > [10:04:54] [+FoxBawt] Current BW:12.8 Kbs Record CPS:0.9 Mbs by
> > FurtiveFox
> > [10:04:55] [+FoxBawt] #1 114 MB Al Mackey CD - (50 gets)
> > [10:04:56] [+FoxBawt] #2 30.9MB Falstaff - X-Rated Portfolio - (32
> > gets)
> > [10:04:57] [+FoxBawt] #3 54.3MB Fel's 2003 ART CD - (33 gets)
> > [10:04:58] [+FoxBawt] #4 49.9MB Ferris' 2003 ART CD - (39 gets)
> > [10:04:59] [+FoxBawt] #5 60.3MB Furbidden Fruits - (123 gets)
> > [10:05:00] [+FoxBawt] #6 19.6MB Wookiee - Paul Simon Sketches and
> > Hidden Work - (105 gets)
> > [10:05:01] [+FoxBawt] #7 n/a Chris McKinley Collection - (103 gets)
> > [10:05:02] [+FoxBawt] #8 2.67MB Chris McKinley - Unreleased - Lion
> > King - (130 gets)
> > [10:05:03] [+FoxBawt] #9 9.45MB The Steven Saber Collection - (180
> > gets)
> > [10:05:04] [+FoxBawt] #10 27.7MB The new Furry Flash collection -
> > 102 flash animations! UPDATED [12/07/03] - (175 gets)
> > [10:05:05] [+FoxBawt] #11 63.5MB SPLEK - A new CD by Fredryk Phox.
> > Not yet released, just uploaded to his server 12/28/03 - (104 gets)
> > [10:05:06] [+FoxBawt] #12 248 MB Yiffy Dragon Collection - 2004
> > Edition - 1,222 pictures, movies, series, stories, and wallpapers.
> > Released 01.04.04 - (67 gets)
> > [10:05:08] [+FoxBawt] #13 77.3MB Circles 1 to 4 - (2 gets)
> > [10:05:08] [+FoxBawt] #14 60.4MB Dagon Heat 1 - 3 - (10 gets)
> > [10:05:09] [+FoxBawt] #15 139 MB The entire Sexy Fur website
> > [12-25-03] INCLUDING the update for 01/11/04 - (20 gets)
> > [10:05:11] [+FoxBawt] Served:40.3G Packs Offered:15
> >
> > [10:09:26] [SlackXDCC] --> ** 87 packs ** 6 of 10 slots open, Record:
> > 353.6KB/s
> > [10:09:26] [SlackXDCC] --> ** Bandwidth Usage ** Current: 54.2KB/s,
> > Cap: 75.0KB/s, Record: 161.1KB/s
> > [10:09:26] [SlackXDCC] --> ** To request a file type: "/msg SlackXDCC
> > xdcc send #x" **
> > [10:09:26] [SlackXDCC] --> #1 95x [ 58M] Full collection of the
> > popular ASB, issues 1 through 8!
> > [10:09:26] [SlackXDCC] --> #2 109x [639K] ASB Folio, Behind This Desk
> > I'm Naked
> > [10:09:26] [SlackXDCC] --> #3 80x [584K] ASB Short, Boys of Summer
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #4 107x [ 12M] Fred Perry's Folios
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #5 121x [ 16M] Four folios from the Bad
> > Furs series
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #6 88x [6.9M] Genus #61
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #7 139x [ 11M] The first five Skunkworks
> > folios from Hardiman, plus extras
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #8 107x [ 14M] 95% Fur Free, a new
> > high-quality folio from Jim Hardiman
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #9 69x [9.6M] Issue #1 of Omaha
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #10 111x [ 20M] Secret art from ASB artist
> > Chris McKinley
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #11 113x [4.5M] Game Boys, a new folio from
> > John Barrett
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #12 95x [860K] Skunkworks' Mixed Breeds, a
> > mixed coupling of Skunkworks girls
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #13 89x [1.2M] Blam, Whoosh, Click
> > Portfolio
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #14 93x [500K] ASB Folio, Caught On Camera
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #15 279x [1.6M] Skunkworks' In The Out
> > Hole, an anal folio from Jim Hardiman
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #16 131x [683K] Skunkworks' Student Driver
> > 2, sequel to the Student Driver Skunkworks comic
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #17 151x [7.1M] Ups and Downs, Jim
> > Hardiman's comic about the problems with furry sex
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #18 79x [ 34M] Update to Sexyfur.com,
> > 10/1/03
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #19 120x [7.4M] Rare Breed, a comic of
> > unusual species and their pairing
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #20 85x [420M] Comprehensive collection of
> > Genus, issues #1 through #56!
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #21 73x [6.6M] Genus #57
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #22 63x [5.6M] Genus #58
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #23 106x [ 12M] Collection of WildZoo,
> > issues #1 through #4
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #24 61x [5.0M] Genus #59
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #25 85x [3.1M] Genus #60
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #26 127x [ 12M] ASB Secret Fantasies, a new
> > 2003 Folio
> > [10:09:27] [SlackXDCC] --> #27 101x [2.5M] Good/Bad Roxi, a folio
> > showing both sides of this femme
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #28 95x [ 23M] Genus Male issues #1 and #2
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #29 71x [1.8M] Eric Schwartz's portfolio of
> > Furry Problems
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #30 138x [ 45M] The new Jab Archives folio
> > to raise money
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #31 174x [ 31M] Falstaff X-Rated, a
> > portfolio of Jessica Willard's sexy Falstaff
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #32 94x [108M] Wookie's comprehensive 2003
> > CD
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #33 113x [770K] Skunkworks' Strapped In
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #34 91x [1.3M] Skunkworks' Three's Company
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #35 95x [129M] [Karabiner (Den)'s Full 2003
> > CD]
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #36 101x [2.8M] Luftenkinder #1
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #37 86x [3.0M] Dragon Heat issue #1
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #38 84x [2.5M] Dragon Heat issue #2
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #39 123x [2.1M] Max Blackrabbit's Canine
> > Portfolio
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #40 115x [2.6M] Bunny Town issue #2, a sick
> > little comic
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #41 122x [ 21M] Sweet Treats, a furry
> > cookbook
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #42 77x [414K] ASB Folio, Cats and Dogs
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #43 107x [1.4M] Ian Soulfox's Tail
> > Underground, Halloween and New Year's Pack
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #44 72x [ 59M] Ken Sample's Color Art CD
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #45 96x [ 26M] Genus' Filthy Animals comic,
> > issues #1 through #3
> > [10:09:28] [SlackXDCC] --> #46 67x [ 77M] Circles, a comic drawn by
> > K9, issues #1-4
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #47 71x [187M] Havoc, Inc issues #1-9
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #48 84x [3.2M] Skunkworks' Cutting Room
> > Floor
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #49 135x [7.8M] Sexyfur's Grind Magazine,
> > featuring Sasha
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #50 105x [ 24M] A mirror of Mamabliss.com
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #51 66x [ 47M] Foxxfire's Addendum CD,
> > additional art from previous CD
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #52 151x [3.7M] Sexual Espionage, non-furry
> > gay comic from Daria McGrain
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #53 92x [5.7M] Eric Schwartz's
> > Spoogefolios, #1-3
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #54 86x [ 54M] Fel's 2003 Art CD
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #55 90x [9.0M] Incontinent Student Bodies
> > #2
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #56 72x [ 44M] The Complete Foxxfire CD
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #57 96x [ 50M] Ferris' 2003 Art CD
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #58 90x [ 51M] Furnation Magazines 1-4
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #59 267x [2.2M] NEW! Jay Naylor's Furworks
> > Folio
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #60 101x [2.9M] Incontinent Student Bodies
> > #1
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #61 133x [ 87M] Genus' Anubis comic, very
> > high quality
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #62 88x [1.1M] Michael Vega's Bound to
> > Happen portfolio
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #63 143x [4.8M] NEW! Girls of Rock, Soup
> > Studio
> > [10:09:29] [SlackXDCC] --> #64 20x [ 54M] Animal Magnetism #1 CD-rip!
> > New 2/5/04
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #65 132x [ 49M] Animal Magnetism #3 CD-rip!
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #66 22x [ 83M] Animal Magnetism #5 CD-rip!
> > New 2/5/04
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #67 58x [9.0M]
> > [fxc]Incontinent_Student_Bodies_2.rar Marci McAdams second installment
> > NEW!
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #68 132x [5.8M] [fxc]_Genus__62.rar Genus
> > Issue #62 NEW 12/20/03 Merry Christmas ^_^
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #69 188x [3.9M] [fxc]lance_rund_v2.rar More
> > lance! More complete! Merry christmas! NEW ! 12/20/03
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #70 161x [ 55M] [fxc]DragonHeat3.rar Dragon
> > Heat Issue #3 (master quality) NEW 1/1/04
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #71 109x [3.7M] Voilent Femms Singing about
> > Werewolves ADDED 01/03/04
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #72 158x [ 17M] Bunnielove.com.rar
> > Bunnielove.com mirror NEW 1/7/04
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #73 143x [9.9M] Natasha_Cat_CD1.rar
> > Mirrored from Evee NEW 1/7/04
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #74 9x [ 12M] Natasha_Cat_CD2.rar Mirrored
> > from Evee NEW 1/16/03
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #75 127x [ 53M] [fxc]WildKingdom2to8.rar
> > Wild Kingdom issues 2-8 NEW 1/16/03
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #76 192x [ 14M] zuma.exe Zuma Deluxe New
> > 1/19/04
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #77 161x [ 20M]
> > [fxc]_Wildlifers_Special__1.rar Genus's Wildlifers special #1 New
> > 1/20/04
> > [10:09:30] [SlackXDCC] --> #78 79x [ 15M]
> > [fxc]Spotlight_on_Skunkworks.rar Mirrored from RaidenXDCC Added
> > 1/20/04
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #79 79x [ 12M]
> > [fxc]_Genus_Male__3_By_Bloodstrype.rar Genus Male #3 Re-Rip NEW
> > 1/27/04
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #80 167x [ 63M]
> > [fxc]Furry_Artists_Partnership_Retail_CD.rar 20 Dollar retail cd sold
> > at FC '04 Artists: Fennec, Foxxfire ,GreenMonkey, Grrwolf, Guppy, Ian
> > R. Soulfox, NaniMoose and Wookie NEW 1/29/04
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #81 83x [8.9M] [fxc]_Rare_Breed__2.rar Rare
> > Breed Issue #2 NEW 2/3/04
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #82 77x [6.9M] Secret_Sabrina_Society.rar
> > Mirrored from Val NEW 02/05/04
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #83 75x [ 19M] [fxc]DragonsHeatRelief.rar
> > Dragon Heat Relief comic NEW 02/05/04
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #84 81x [ 17M] [fxc]Draconus_Une_#4.rar
> > From the people that brought you Dragon Heat comes another series! NEW
> > 02/05/04
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #85 72x [ 16M] [fxc]Dreik_#9.rar Dreik
> > Issue #9 From the Dragon Heat People! - Ripped by turbofur New
> > 02/05/05
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #86 54x [2.1M] [fxc]ASB-Money_Shots.rar The
> > LONG AWAITED ASB 04 CALANDER SCAN! MONEYSHOTS NEW 02/09/04
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> #87 17x [6.0M] [fxc]_Genus__63.rar Genus
> > issue 63 NEW 02/10/04 9:35PM PST
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> Total Offered: 2351.9 MB Total Transferred:
> > 269.84 GB
> > [10:09:31] [SlackXDCC] --> ADMIN XDL Requested (DCC Chat)
> >
> > p.p.p.s
> > Nexxus, wookie, Faggot dancers, aeto/kiko, kage, and any of you who
> > doubt me.
> >
> > You cannot stop the freedom of the people to share whatever they want.
> > You cannot stop us Nexxxus. Your too old.
> > You cannot stop us Marci/Karis. Your too fucked in the head.
> > You cannot stop us Lance Rund. You spend your 10,000 dollars on a
> > goldenwolf picture, you dont have money for ASB reprints OR a
> > retainer. Luckily , we will take care of the asb reprinting for you.
> > You cannot stop us Further Confusion security. "We walk among you."
> > To furry artists:
> > We cannot stop you, you choose to quit. If you dont like drawing
> > furry art, go work at mcdonalds or something. Whatever floats your
> > bot.
> > Um...
> > www.livejournal.com/users/_ebis_
> >
> > p.p.p.p.s
> >
> > Nexxus: What you said to me at that FC party in which you were a drunk
> > ass , punk ass texican who tried to break a plastic bottle over my
> > head. You said that if you ever saw me posting furnation magazine
> > online again you will kill me...
> >
> >
> > I aint dead yet bitch.
> > -Sibe
>
>
>
eccentric genius
Oh well, so much for that.
figures.
regards,
eccgen
"Francisco Azinsan" <fran...@vulpes.net> wrote in message
news:slrnc2la26.f...@velox.critter.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hardly.
>
> All he did was take the text of the document titled 'Why Software Should
> Not Have Owners' from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html and
> (roughly) change 'software' into 'furry art'
>
>
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:38:35 -0600, eccentric genius wrote:
> > It seems to me that sibe has a much better grasp of the principles of
> > logical debate than the polemic. just an observation.
> >
> >
> > "Ross Reddick" <mytail...@alwayswet.com> wrote in message
> > news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
> >> Digital information technology contributes to the world by making it
> >> easier to copy and modify information. Computers promise to make this
> >> easier for all of us. Not everyone wants it to be easier. The system
> >> of copyright gives furry art "owners," most of whom aim to withhold the
> >> arts potential benefit from the rest of the public. They would like to
> >> be the only ones who can copy and modify the furry art that we smack
> >> off to. The copyright system grew up with printing-a technology for
> >> mass production copying. Copyright fit in well with this technology
> >> because it restricted only the mass producers of copies. It did not
> >> take freedom away from readers of books. An ordinary reader, who did
> >> not own a printing press, could copy books only with pen
> >> and ink, and few readers were sued for that.
> [ rest trimmed ]
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
> iD8DBQFAKqhG6NGGeOdvsO8RAnhSAJ9caenHR54DrPZoiNBsfhmMsKL4mQCfe7zS
> 08srJoAqetBi7OGSPGjJ8PE=
> =dJ/q
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Ross Reddick
is Dan Davies, and he can be reached at (503) 640-3400 FAX (503) 693-5409.
Give em a call. Use your first amendment rights :)
cath...@earthlink.net (Ken Pick) wrote in message news:<9efdce3a.04021...@posting.google.com>...
Dave the Rotating Hyena
Birnam wood to high alt.fan.furry. hill shall come against him.
>Yeah, well he is posting this shit to earn brownie points with whoever for
>starting drama - so he's already lookin good...good job guys
That's true, He can't even argue coherently.
---
Through the eye of terror, a place no man dare go
Through the eye of terror, worlds of chaos overflow...
Alexsandyr Troutnoodler
> > Oh, and trim your headers next time. Don't want to crosspost
> > inappropriately...
>
> Ill crosspost where ever I please
>
And get killfiled. Wow...sound logic. Kewl.
=====O <==[IonOtter, LogOut]
Kadaitcha
> p.s.
> Let me open by saying a big HEWWO to the terrorist kadiatcha dancers.
> Stay in the shadows. You are cowards. Meet me in real life sometime
> and see how far your games get yah :) Luckily you have annoyed the
> fuck out of my probation officer to the point that even If I *did* do
> something to violate my probation, he wont violate me. So for that I
> thank you for the sleu of calls to my p.o.. Mr. Davies however dosent
> appreciate it when he has a caseload of over 100 other people who have
> committed more serious crimes.
We are cowards? Cowards. Let us see...you have a criminal
record...documented mental defects that cause you to experience
uncontrollable bouts of rage that resulted in you being tossed in
lockdown for 90 days AFTER you were arrested for assaulting [NAME
REDACTED] and stealing his money and his car after urinating all over
him...you continuously fail to take you medication, and have generally
shown that you need to have the words "POOR IMPULSE CONTROL" tattooed
across your forehead.
We should hardly call our behaviour cowardice. Behold:
********************
Generally the one who first occupies the battlefield awaiting the
enemy is at ease; the one who comes later and rushes into battle is
fatigued. Therefore those skilled warfare move the enemy, and are not
moved by the enemy.
Getting the enemy to approach on his own accord is a matter of showing
him advantage; stopping him from approaching is a matter of showing
him harm. Therefore, if the enemy is at ease, be able to exhaust him;
if the enemy is well fed, be able to starve him; if the enemy is
settled, be able to move him; appear at places where he must rush to
defend, and rush to places where he least expects.
To march over a thousand li without becoming distressed, march over
where the enemy is not present. To be certain to take what you
attack, attack where the enemy cannot defend. To be certain of safety
when defending, defend where the enemy cannot attack.
Therefore, against those skilled in attack, the enemy does not know
where to defend; against those skilled in defense, the enemy does not
know where to attack.
Subtle! Subtle!
They become formless.
Mysterious! Mysterious!
They become soundless.
Therefore, they are the masters of the enemy's fate.
********************
-Sun Tzu: The Art Of War (Chapter 6: Weakness and Strength)
So no, we are not cowards. We are controlling when and where we meet
you. To put it into terms you can understand, "we own you". (Forgive
us if we fail to stoop to "leet speak", we have more class than that.)
Before we step back into the shadows, we should like to leave you with
this bit of wisdom, once again from Sun Tzu:
*****************************
Generally, if you want to attack an army, besiege a walled city,
assassinate individuals, you must know the identities of the defending
generals, assistants, associates, gate guards, and officers.
You must have spies seek and learn them.
You must seek enemy spies.
Bribe them, and instruct and retain them.
Therefore, double spies can be obtained and used.
From their knowledge, you can obtain local and internal spies.
From their knowledge, the dead spies can spread misinformation to the
enemy.
From their knowledge, our living spies can be used as planned.
The ruler must know these five kinds of espionage.
This knowledge depends on the double spies.
Therefore, you must treat them with the utmost generosity.
*************************************
-Sun Tzu: The Art of War (Chapter 13: Using Spies)
So for now, we shall continue to Dance In Darkness
-The Kadaitcha Dancers
Super B.H.
so please read it!
I'm a lover of Furry Art, for the simple reason, it's fantastic stuff! I
have bought many art CDs such as the Digital Impendium anthologies. The
thing is, a picture looks great on a computer screen, but even more amazing
on paper!
I have some pictures on these CDs that I went out and bought in print form
when I attended a recent con.
So, viewing a scan of a comic on a screen is fine, but having the copy to
flip through time and time again, and seeing it kept in fantastic condition
in a plastic folder is a joy to behold!
Furry art has owners because it needs diversity. If all cars were just
'cars', heck wouldn't we be bored! "I bought a new car!" "What kind?" "A
car!" Ooooo, fun!
Any opinions on this, Mr. Sibe?
Iron Raptor
You DO realize that the only reason he's doing this again is so that his
name will remain infamous in the furry fandom. The longer attention is paid
to thos mofo, the more publicity he gets. He doesn't give a shit whether
it's good or bad that his name's out there. I know replying to this thread
defeats it's purpose, but.... *sighs* I feel this has to be said.
FUCK OFF! STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO THE RETARDS! You only give him a reason
to perpetuate this stupid battle.
Now, I re-iterate again, this time in one syllable words for the denser
people in the fandom...
DO
NOT
FEED
THE
TROLLS!
"Chakku" <targ...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0e03t$6i0$1...@velox.critter.net...
> You act like your some kind of liberator. Perhaps in your diluted mind you
> are. The only real issue with your great liberation is that your so short
> sited.
>
> Your 'helping' your friend is hurting someone else. Do you think its ok if
I
> kill you to help out a friend? It will. You want to be so kind as to live
up
> to your ideals and let me kill you in the most violently entreating way?
If
> you don't see the flaws with your philosophy I suggest you find another
> hobby.
>
Kyle Fox
> I dont understand kay, how have I lost allready. Also, you are a
> loser kay. A slut, a loser, your ugly, anti social...
I rest my case.
> p.s.
> Kaditcha man hi :)
She has not been involved in this.
- Kay
--
http://kayfox.org/
contact info: http://kayfox.org/contact.html
Linux xheotris 2.4.20-4GB-athlon
6:50am up 2 days 12:41, 6 users, load average: 0.47, 0.37, 0.29
Alexsandyr Troutnoodler
"PlanetFur" <nos...@nospam.planetfur.com> wrote in message
news:c0fbsj$1esm$1...@velox.critter.net...
<SNIP>
> Just some musings.
And here's some MORE musings for you....
Lance Rund didn't just walk up and plop a five-figure number on there. He had
to beat the other auctions that were already on it. Lance paid the top price he
was willing to pay, and in so doing, beat out the top prices others were willing
to pay. Who knows? Maybe someone had $9900 on there?
The point is, the auction did not get to the $10,000 mark all on it's own. So
if you're going to display your jealousy that Lance had the money to spend, at
least spare some of that jealousy for those nine people who put their
four-figure marks before Lances' winning five.
Heh heh heh! And that, more than anything else is what this whole thing is
about, isn't it?
All the whiners, complainers and kvetchers are sobbing that someone-a fur in
particular-had ten-thousand dollars to spend on a painting.
They're probably the same folks who are sobbing into their LiveJournals that the
rent is two months overdue, their car is dead on the side of the road, and
they're selling their computer to pay for a bus ticket to go live with their
boyfriend that they met on Taps a few nights ago.....AFTER THEY GET BACK FROM
THE CONVENTION.
"Waaaaaahhhh! Lance Rund is more financially responsible than I am and could
afford to blow ten grand on furry art! Waaaaaaahhh! AND IT'S NOT EVEN FURRY
SPOOGE!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!! *pound*pound*pound*kick*scream*whine*"
To be fair, I know a few folks out there who attended the convention, despite
being on shaky financial ground, but they had a plan and stuck to it. And they
even cheered when the auction results came in.
So there. *pulls eyelid down at the babies*
=========O <==[IonOtter, LogOut]
"Subtle as a brick to the back of the head." -Llyander Gryphon.
Wanderer
news:c0g1v2$2o56$1...@velox.critter.net...
> Ah.... the masses, the stupid stupid masses.
>
<snip>
Don't worry about my post... he won't have a response for a few days.
That's how long he'll be studying the dictionary.:>
Yours briefly,
Ken Pick
> What you are describing is an egalitarian anarchy where if you think
> you deserve something, you should just take it. What's really sad is that
> you actually believe the sewage you spout out at length.
What's funny is that the big boosters of "egalitarian anarchy where if
you think you deserve something, you should just take it" are usually
these wimpy intellectuals who may as well be albino from all the
suntan you get from a monitor screen.
How long would they last in an "egalitarian anarchy" where they'd have
to compete with bikers, gangstas, jocks, wiseguys, and street thugs?
Where the mentality is "Want. Take. Simple." instead of "Information
yearns to be FREEEEEEEEE!"?
Remember the First Russian Revolution and all its copycats? The
bookish intellectuals started the Party and the Revolution, only to be
overthrown and exterminated in turn by street thugs like Stalin and
Saddam...
Dan Skunk
>
> You DO realize that the only reason he's doing this again is so that his
> name will remain infamous in the furry fandom. The longer attention is
paid
> to thos mofo, the more publicity he gets. He doesn't give a shit whether
> it's good or bad that his name's out there. I know replying to this
thread
> defeats it's purpose, but.... *sighs* I feel this has to be said.
>
Almost. :P
Dan Skunk
"Francisco Azinsan" <fran...@vulpes.net> wrote in message
news:slrnc2la26.f...@velox.critter.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hardly.
>
> All he did was take the text of the document titled 'Why Software Should
> Not Have Owners' from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html and
> (roughly) change 'software' into 'furry art'
>
Well, plagiarism is easier than doing the work yourself...
At least no one can say he's a hypocrite. :)
Dan Skunk
"Wanderer" <wand...@ticnet.com> wrote in message
news:102maeq...@corp.supernews.com...
> Second, I find nothing desirable about pictures. If I can't have it, why
do
> I want a picture of it? I get enough frustration in my life... who needs
to
> double his sexual angst? Give me a living female, with nice, round curves
> and a beautiful laugh, a brilliant mind and a loving heart. You can't get
> *that* in pictures.
>
Yeah. Can't smell it. Can't touch it. Not very arrousing.
I just appreciate the techinical and artistic aspects of it too.
Well, occasionally I'll find something that will inspire my imagination, but
I'm mostly just interested in the art.
Martin Skunk
>
> God, you guys are fucking DUMB.
>
> Half this groups got me killfiled for whatever reason, people constantly
> call other people trolls and whatnot...
>
> And then - a post by Sibe, talking about art should be free has got 25
> responses in 24 hours
>
> fuckin retards
What did you expect? A rational conversation? Here? Come on! I think
AFF has been dubbed Alt.Flame.Furry for over 10 years.
You see, regardless of the indignation and outrage this folk is
causing with his "copyright infringements", nobody on this newsgroup, with
an exception or two, have moved a single finger to stop him and his friends
to do what he still does. OK, from time to time, we see the server where
he's hosting his stuff disappears, but he changes servers with ease and then
offers the "copyrighted stuff" again.
Oh, yes, we've got lots of outrage, and disapproval, and, of course,
a HUGE flamewar. I'm afraid that most of the users of this newsgroup don't
care about furry fandom, nor they do care about Sibe's copyright
yadda-yaddas. All they want to do is flaming, arguing, insulting,
complaining, and won't go any further than that. It's the sport they are
more skilled at: bringing opinions, arguing for the mere pleasure of
arguing, looking outraged, insulting, disqualifying, and then be insulted,
disqualify, and outrage other people.
A message by Sibe, a foolk (no, not a typo) who should be
ostracised, appears on the newsgroup and dozens of folks hurry up and reply
as soon as they have the chance to start yet another useless discussion, to
state the obvious yet again, because that's what they think they have to do.
And then we have a tragedy of epic proportions, and Sibe gets what he wants
once more (attention) and the flamewar continues for days, weeks, or maybe
even months, and then Sibe's on the mouth of everyone and earns even more
notoriety than many artists that probably should deserve it more. Why? Not
because Sibe is doing something he shouldn't do but he does anyway, it's
because AFF needs to flame, to insult, to rant, at anything.
Meanwhile, Sibe continues out there, and continues doing whatever he
wants with his pirated copies of the comics he's got. And will continue
doing it for many more months, until people realize that he's nothing but an
attention whore, and as soon as he doesn't get that attention he craves for,
he'll get bored and move on.
The day anything written the word "sibe" on this newsgroup doesn't
generate a SINGLE reply, then that folk will be defeated. Alas, I think I
have more chances to get 150 millions playing lottery than seein g that
happening on AFF.
---Martin Skunk
Dan Skunk
"MHirtes" <ht...@jawholenewaddy.com> wrote in message
news:htes-A6FCAA.2...@news.central.cox.net...
> In article <dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com>,
> mytail...@alwayswet.com (Ross Reddick) wrote:
>
> >
> > Right, for example the golden wolf piece that sold for 10,000 bucks.
>
>
> WTF???
>
> What kind of an OVERPAID RETARD is going to piss away THAT much money on
> a furry object??
>
> People are STARVING out there. Can you imagine how many families could
> have been fed with 10 grand?
>
Feed a thousand families for one day, or feed one artist all year. No
difference really.
I think it's good if people are willing to pay big money for furry art.
Means there will be more artists out there who can afford to make more art.
:)
Giving money to starving people doesn't fix the problem anyway. You'll feed
them one day, and they'll still be starving the next. Rather pointless.
Dan Skunk
Jellousy. :P
Dan Skunk
"mouse" <mo...@blackvault.com> wrote in message
news:Xns948D337...@204.152.189.149...
> mytail...@alwayswet.com (Ross Reddick) wrote in
> news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com:
>
> God, you guys are fucking DUMB.
>
> Half this groups got me killfiled for whatever reason, people constantly
> call other people trolls and whatnot...
>
> And then - a post by Sibe, talking about art should be free has got 25
> responses in 24 hours
>
> fuckin retards
Aww. The other troll is jellous. *hugs*
I don't have you killfiled. :)
Paul Johnson
Hash: SHA1
To all the assholes who actually reply to Sibe: Knock it off. You're
only being willing participants in his retard parade. He feeds on
attention, you can kill his ego by ignoring him.
That, and it saves you time and bandwidth to do the right thing.
- --
.''`. Paul Johnson <ba...@ursine.ca>
: :' :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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iBuck
Ditto...
"You can have it Quickly,Correct, Complex - Pick 2"
Iron Raptor
this.
The reason why there are so many starving kids, is namely because of two
things, social structure, and beliefs, and utilitarianism. In many places
in Africa, social security just doesn't happen. There IS no security when
you're old, so in order to compensate for this, they have kids, because kids
can do several things; pass on the family inheritance, pass on the family
line, and take care of the parents when they reach old age. The reason they
have so MANY kids, is the simple fact that infant mortality there is
extraordinarily high. Also, in some cultures there, your wealth and social
standing is determined by how many kids you have, so people start popping
out babies faster than Sibe can pop out retarded comments that in no way
relate to his "stance" on Furry art for all.
Anyway, I thought I'd enlighten those not already enlightened and promtpy
give a good FUCK YOU ALL to the idiots who think that their voice matters in
replying to trolls.
"Dan Skunk" <_@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:rmPWb.14121$cBH....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Ben Zupan
Hiroshima
"Paul Johnson" <ba...@ursine.ca> wrote in message
news:2nqsf1-...@ursine.ca...
Ben Zupan
humor...don't worry about it if they're using up bandwidth, and its their
own time...it's only so many bytes of information on the web....
Hiroshima
Ben Zupan
Do we need to change your oil filter again! You're squeeking worse then they
are! :)
And who gives a darn about those kids? Not the people in charge of their own
countries, that's for sure. In a place where war lords would rather battle
each other instead of try to win the hearts and minds of their subjects, we
would be better off mailing copies of 'The Prince' by Machiavelli (
www.alibris.com ) to the folks in charge instead of buying them
food...because even if they live, they're gonna die young in citizens
militias. So just relax, have some WD-40, and maybe a cookie if you're good.
:)
Hiroshima
RHJunior
> > All he did was take the text of the document titled 'Why Software Should
> > Not Have Owners' from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html and
> > (roughly) change 'software' into 'furry art'
When they sue him for plaigarism, I am going to laugh at both of them until
my ass quite literally falls off.
--
"What was that popping sound?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
--Dilbert
RHJunior
http://npc.keenspace.com
http://utlt.keenspace.com
http://nipandtuck.keenspace.com
Dennis Carr
> Digital information technology contributes to the world by making it
> easier to
> copy and modify information.
Please don't feed the troll. Thank you.
--
Dennis Carr - ke6...@spamcop.net | I may be out of my mind,
http://www.dennis.furtopia.org | But I have more fun that way.
------------------------------------+-------------------------------
MHirtes
wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> To all the assholes who actually reply to Sibe: Knock it off. You're
> only being willing participants in his retard parade.
And here you are, holding one of the tethers to the giant Corky baloon.
Dave the Rotating Hyena
until great Birnam wood to high alt.fan.furry. hill shall come against
him.
>documented mental defects that cause you to experience
>uncontrollable bouts of rage that resulted in you being tossed in
Gosh, so you're targeting someone who is mentally ill and who is
therefore not acutally responsbile for their actions?
Well, I'm really impressed.
>So no, we are not cowards. We are controlling when and where we meet
>you. To put it into terms you can understand, "we own you". (Forgive
>us if we fail to stoop to "leet speak", we have more class than that.)
>
>Before we step back into the shadows, we should like to leave you with
>this bit of wisdom, once again from Sun Tzu:
Quoteing Sun Tzu to appear all cool and mysterious is adolescent
Instread of devoteing all this energy to harressing this poor man,
Could you not try to see that he gets the help he needs?
Maybe medication, or even perhaps a spell in a secure mental unit or
something, (since it is alleged that he is violent)
Dave the Rotating Hyena
great Birnam wood to high alt.fan.furry. hill shall come against him.
>posting publicly. And being a dragon, I DON'T SHARE MY HORDE.
I don't think anyone would want old socks and lint.
eccentric genius
there be more people who can write scathing monologues and spell them
correctly?
regards
ecc> All of this from a guy, who takes shotguns to school, is kicked out of the
> National Guard, beats up on sickly thin little guys, and is a child
> molester. Who are you to hold dominion over someone's creation? Most of
my
> art is free but if someone wants something custom, I charge. The same is
> for most any service. You argument also says that if I want work on my
car
> done, it should be free, because automobiles were built for the betterment
> of all. Bull shit. According to you, I shouldn't pay for books, I should
> just take them. Or I should just put a bullet in you because (believe me)
> it would be for the best. You're argument is flawed; there is no logic to
> it. What you are describing is an egalitarian anarchy where if you think
> you deserve something, you should just take it. What's really sad is that
> are a sad little boy who no one likes and is forced to respond to you're
own
> messages using pseudonyms just to make others think that you have
> supporters. If you want free furry art, why don't you just take a few
> classes and learn how to do it yourself, then you can give it away all you
> want.
>
>
> -You know who-
>
> > "Ross Reddick" <mytail...@alwayswet.com> wrote in message
> > news:dd563030.04021...@posting.google.com...
> > > Digital information technology contributes to the world by making it
> > > easier to
> > > all of us.
> > > Not everyone wants it to be easier. The system of copyright gives
> > > furry art
> > > "owners," most of whom aim to withhold the arts potential benefit from
> > > the rest of the public. They would like to be the only ones who can
> > > copy and modify
> > > the furry art that we smack off to.
> > > The copyright system grew up with printing-a technology for mass
> > > production
> > > copying. Copyright fit in well with this technology because it
> > > restricted only the
> > > mass producers of copies. It did not take freedom away from readers of
> > > books. An
> > > ordinary reader, who did not own a printing press, could copy books
> > > only with pen
> > > and ink, and few readers were sued for that.
> > > Digital technology is more flexible than the printing press: when
> > > information
> > > has digital form, you can easily copy it to share it with others. This
> > > very flexibility
> > > makes a bad fit with a system like copyright. That's the reason for
> > > the increasingly
> > > nasty and draconian measures now used to enforce software copyright.
> > > Consider
> > > these four practices of the Software Publishers Association (SPA):
> > > ? Massive propaganda saying it is wrong to disobey the owners to help
> > > your
> > > friend.
> > > ? Solicitation for stool pigeons to inform on their coworkers and
> > > colleagues.
> > > ? Raids (with police help) on offices and schools, in which people are
> > > told they
> > > must prove they are innocent of illegal copying.
> > > ? Prosecution (attempted, at the furnation administrators request) of
> > > people such
> > > as ten from #furryxdcc
> > > All four practices resemble those used in the former Soviet Union,
> > > where every
> > > copying machine had a guard to prevent forbidden copying, and where
> > > individuals
> > > had to copy information secretly and pass it from hand to hand as
> > > samizdat. There
> > > is of course a difference: the motive for information control in the
> > > Soviet Union
> > > was political; in the U.S. the motive is profit. But it is the actions
> > > that affect us, not
> > > the motive. Any attempt to block the sharing of information, no matter
> > > why, leads
> > > to the same methods and the same harshness.
> > > Owners make several kinds of arguments for giving them the power to
> > > control
> > > how we use information:
> > >
> > > Name Calling
> > >
> > > Owners use smear words such as "piracy" and "theft," as well as expert
> > > terminology
> > > such as "intellectual property" and "damage," to suggest a certain
> > > line of
> > > thinking to the public-a simplistic analogy between furry art and
> > > physical objects.
> > > Our ideas and intuitions about property for material objects are about
> > > whether
> > > it is right to take an object away from someone else. They don't
> > > directly apply to
> > > making a copy of something. But the owners ask us to apply them
> > > anyway.
> > >
> > > Exaggeration
> > >
> > > Owners say that they suffer "harm" or "economic loss" when users copy
> > > furry art
> > > themselves. But the copying has no direct effect on the owner, and it
> > > harms
> > > no one. The owner can lose only if the person who made the copy would
> > > otherwise
> > > have paid for one from the owner.
> > > A little thought shows that most such people would not have bought
> > > copies. Yet
> > > the owners compute their "losses" as if each and every one would have
> > > bought a
> > > copy. That is exaggeration-to put it kindly.
> > >
> > > The Law
> > >
> > >
> > > Owners often describe the current state of the law, and the harsh
> > > penalties they
> > > can threaten us with. Implicit in this approach is the suggestion that
> > > today's law
> > > reflects an unquestionable view of morality-yet at the same time, we
> > > are urged to
> > > regard these penalties as facts of nature that can't be blamed on
> > > anyone.
> > > This line of persuasion isn't designed to stand up to critical
> > > thinking; it's intended
> > > to reinforce a habitual mental pathway.
> > > It's elementary that laws don't decide right and wrong. Every American
> > > should
> > > know that, forty years ago, it was against the law in many states for
> > > a black person
> > > to sit in the front of a bus; but only racists would say sitting there
> > > was wrong.
> > >
> > > Natural Rights
> > >
> > > Authors often claim a special connection with art they have created,
> > > and
> > > go on to assert that, as a result, their desires and interests
> > > concerning the artwork
> > > simply outweigh those of anyone else-or even those of the whole rest
> > > of the world.
> > > (Typically companies, not authors, hold the copyrights on art but we
> > > are
> > > expected to ignore this discrepancy.)
> > > To those who propose this as an ethical axiom-the author is more
> > > important
> > > than you I can only say that I, a consumer of furry art myself, call
> > > it bunk.
> > > But people in general are only likely to feel any sympathy with the
> > > natural rights
> > > claims for two reasons.
> > > One reason is an over-stretched analogy with material objects. When I
> > > cook
> > > spaghetti, I do object if someone else eats it, because then I cannot
> > > eat it. His action
> > > hurts me exactly as much as it benefits him; only one of us can eat
> > > the spaghetti,so the question is, which? The smallest distinction
> > > between us is enough to tip the
> > > ethical balance.
> > > But whether you copy or change a story, or piece of art I created
> > > affects you directly and me
> > > only indirectly. Whether you give a copy to your friend affects you
> > > and your friend
> > > much more than it affects me. I shouldn't have the power to tell you
> > > not to do these
> > > things. No one should.
> > > The second reason is that people have been told that natural rights
> > > for authors is
> > > the accepted and unquestioned tradition of our society.
> > > As a matter of history, the opposite is true. The idea of natural
> > > rights of authors
> > > was proposed and decisively rejected when the U.S. Constitution was
> > > drawn up.
> > > That's why the Constitution only permits a system of copyright and
> > > does not require
> > > one; that's why it says that copyright must be temporary. It also
> > > states that the
> > > purpose of copyright is to promote progress-not to reward authors.
> > > Copyright
> > > does reward authors somewhat, and publishers more, but that is
> > > intended as a means
> > > of modifying their behavior.
> > > The real established tradition of our society is that copyright cuts
> > > into the natural
> > > rights of the public-and that this can only be justified for the
> > > public's sake.
> > >
> > > Economics
> > >
> > > The final argument made for having owners of furry art is that this
> > > leads to production
> > > of more furry art.
> > > Unlike the others, this argument at least takes a legitimate approach
> > > to the subject.
> > > It is based on a valid goal-satisfying the viewers of furry art. And
> > > it is empirically
> > > clear that people will produce more of something if they are well paid
> > > for
> > > doing so.
> > > But the economic argument has a flaw: it is based on the assumption
> > > that the
> > > difference is only a matter of how much money we have to pay. It
> > > assumes that
> > > "production of furry art" is what we want, whether the art has owners
> > > or not.
> > > People readily accept this assumption because it accords with our
> > > experiences
> > > with material objects. Consider a sandwich, for instance. You might
> > > well be able
> > > to get an equivalent sandwich either free or for a price. If so, the
> > > amount you pay
> > > is the only difference. Whether or not you have to buy it, the
> > > sandwich has the
> > > same taste, the same nutritional value, and in either case you can
> > > only eat it once.
> > > Whether you get the sandwich from an owner or not cannot directly
> > > affect anything
> > > but the amount of money you have afterwards.
> > > This is true for any kind of material object-whether or not it has an
> > > owner does
> > > not directly affect what it is, or what you can do with it if you
> > > acquire it.
> > > But if a piece of art has an owner, this very much affects what it is,
> > > and what you
> > > can do with a copy if you buy one. The difference is not just a matter
> > > of money. The
> > > system of owners of furry art encourages furry art owners to produce
> > > something-
> > > but not what society really needs. And it causes intangible ethical
> > > pollution that
> > > affects us all.
> > > What does society need? It needs information that is truly available
> > > to its
> > > citizens-for example, artwork that people can read, fix, adapt, and
> > > improve, notjust view. But what furry artists typically deliver is a
> > > black box that we can't
> > > study or change. This is the beginning of the essay, it is a tad too
> > > long and ruining all my friends' friends pages so lj cut here we go.
> > > Society also needs freedom. When a piece of art has an owner, the
> > > users lose freedom
> > > to control part of their own lives.
> > > As a furry consumer today, you may find yourself buying a comic or a
> > > piece of art that has DO NOT DISTRIBUTE in large letters all over it.
> > > If
> > > your friend asks to make a copy, it would be wrong to refuse.
> > > Cooperation is more
> > > important than copyright. But underground, closet cooperation does not
> > > make for a good society. A person should aspire to live an upright
> > > life openly with pride, and
> > > this means saying "No" to purchasing furry art under such pretenses.
> > > You deserve to be able to cooperate openly and freely with other
> > > people who enjoy furry art. You deserve to be able to learn how the
> > > artist draws, and to teach yourself and others the said skills. You
> > > deserve to be able to hire a furry artist to draw you whatever type of
> > > commission you desire.
> > > You deserve free furry art.
artist
news:c0gvr8$hpv$1...@velox.critter.net:
Agreed. Arguing on Usenet is as fun as it is futile. :)
--
AIM: GCCFurryBoy
mell...@yahoo.com
http://www.practialdesigns.com/blog/
Dan Skunk
"artist" <mell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns948E7BD8441D8...@24.24.2.166...
> "Ben Zupan" <killer...@msn.com> wrote in
> news:c0gvr8$hpv$1...@velox.critter.net:
>
> > Course, I could just be replying to you to satify my off center
> > sense of humor...don't worry about it if they're using up
> > bandwidth, and its their own time...it's only so many bytes of
> > information on the web....
> >
> > Hiroshima
>
> Agreed. Arguing on Usenet is as fun as it is futile. :)
>
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
[...]
> 6. "Blame the authors, *they* made the laws!" Very cute... very wrong, but
> very cute. Nice effort to tie copyright to the Jim Crow laws, btw, but
> equally false. Laws are decided by the majority of voters and by Congress.
> When the majority wish a law to change, it shall be changed. End of
> discussion.
This is not realy the case. Its more a case of when compernies with
lobbing power. For example do you realy think that the majority of
people wished copyright to be extended?
[...]
> 10. A sandwich is a sandwich is *not* a piece of artwork. Each piece of
> artwork is different from every other piece... even the two or more versions
> of the Mona Lisa differ. As you cannot automatically find an "equivalent"
> piece of art, the sandwich analogy is false.
Tell that to subway, there employees are sandwich artists.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.
artist
@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
Yeah, but learning that Sibe is a bigger numbnuts than I previously
thought doesn't realy benefit me much. ;)
Wanderer
news:m3wu6qw...@dformosa.zeta.org.au...
> "Wanderer" <wand...@ticnet.com> writes:
> > 6. "Blame the authors, *they* made the laws!" Very cute... very wrong,
but
> > very cute. Nice effort to tie copyright to the Jim Crow laws, btw, but
> > equally false. Laws are decided by the majority of voters and by
Congress.
> > When the majority wish a law to change, it shall be changed. End of
> > discussion.
>
> This is not realy the case. Its more a case of when compernies with
> lobbing power. For example do you realy think that the majority of
> people wished copyright to be extended?
Conversely, voting rights for blacks and women were a populist case, and
backed by a majority. Therefore, my statement is correct: When the
majority of people wish a law to be changed, it shall be.
>
> [...]
>
> > 10. A sandwich is a sandwich is *not* a piece of artwork. Each piece
of
> > artwork is different from every other piece... even the two or more
versions
> > of the Mona Lisa differ. As you cannot automatically find an
"equivalent"
> > piece of art, the sandwich analogy is false.
>
> Tell that to subway, there employees are sandwich artists.
>
And I get the exact same texture and flavor at three different ones, in
three different parts of Dallas. Sorry, no.:)
Yours wolfishly,
The patient,
Dan Skunk
Well, you could learn not to listen to him. That might save you some time.
iBuck
>people wished copyright to be extended?
I don't think a majoiry of people -cared- about it, by and large as much as
people rail about the evils of extending copyright, the works thy want to pass
around -would have been covered- even if it had not been extened, there simply
wasn't as much pressure the other way, except by people favoring the complete
abolition of copyright, which I think we can both agree isn't gonna happen
real soon now..
artist
The problem is that I 'like' to listen to him rave. If I'm posting,
I'm posting to egg him on for my own amusement. What do I care if he
digs himself into a deeper hole. :p And moreover, what do I care if
people don't like my egging him on and they killfile me? It's only
text on a screen, it has no bearing on RL. ;)
Serangi
is because no one else has the right mind to hire your sorry ass for a real
job, and you'll never be pretty enough to be a man-whore.
I almost pity you.
Bill Marcum
<killer...@msn.com> wrote:
> Does Sibe live in the top flat of a pillar-box on baker street? Does
> he have a hamster for a side kick and wear....oh...wait...that's
> Dangermouse! Hey, anyone know if they put that cartoon to DVD yet?
> Does anyone remember Dangermouse? It was such a good cartoon....dry
> British humor, cowardly side kick, wonderful BBC programming......
>
Google says it is on DVD and VHS, but I think the DVDs are only
available in the UK.
--
Stay away from hurricanes for a while.
Dan Skunk
It *can* have a bearing on real life. You might learn something that's
useful irl. You might meet someone on here you'll want ot meet irl. :)
artist
Not a chance, even if I had the money. :p
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
> > > All he did was take the text of the document titled 'Why Software Should
> > > Not Have Owners' from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html and
> > > (roughly) change 'software' into 'furry art'
>
>
> When they sue him for plaigarism, I am going to laugh at both of them until
> my ass quite literally falls off.
I'm not sure that RMS would sue over something like that. It doesn't
seem to be his style.
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
> All of this from a guy, who takes shotguns to school, is kicked out of the
> National Guard, beats up on sickly thin little guys, and is a child
> molester.
Lets keep this arugment cival and avoid the use of Ab-Hom.
iBuck
>Lets keep this arugment cival and avoid the use of Ab-Hom.
It's not Ad-Hom if what someone is discussing is Sibe's lack of moral
character, or standing..
IceCat
the "evils" of art ownership, and copyrights. Too bad he just does'nt
get it, some times you have to pay for what you want, "but not me, I
want it for free" seems to be Sibe's reason for his servers, and the
same goes for all of his psycophantic toadies that he seems to attract
to his "cause".
Sibe just give it a rest, it's gotten old, and so has your presence.
So get the same clue that Kevein Duane did, you are not needed, or
wanted, and have become a bigger idiot then Keven "Burn the Char"
Duane ever was.
Later
IceCat
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
> >Lets keep this arugment cival and avoid the use of Ab-Hom.
>
> It's not Ad-Hom if what someone is discussing is Sibe's lack of moral
> character, or standing..
Thats the very definition of an Ab-Hom argument. This discussion is
supposed to be about the nature of copyright, Sibe's lack of morallity
has nothing to do with it.
iBuck
No, it's a definition of a off topic discussion, which was engenderd in part by
sibe's claiming a moral high ground for his actions, if we can't take the low
ground, please inform him that the heights are off limits as well..
> This discussion is
>supposed to be about the nature of copyright,
Welcome to thread drift, especially when someone cites a -moral right- to
infringe copyrights..
>Sibe's lack of morallity
>has nothing to do with it.
>
Sibe's lack of morality has everything to do with a discussion of his morality,
especially when he claims a moral high ground for his actions..
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
[...]
> >Sibe's lack of morallity
> >has nothing to do with it.
> >
>
> Sibe's lack of morality has everything to do with a discussion of
> his morality,
However this isn't a discussion of Sibes morality, its a discussion of
the morality of copyright.
> especially when he claims a moral high ground for his actions..
That wouldn't that make your argument circular.
"Copyright violation is immoral."
"Why is it immoral?"
"Because Side does it and he is an immoral person." <- BTW this is
the very deffition of an Ab Hom argument.
"Why is Sibe immoral?"
"Because he violates copyright and Copyright violation is immoral."
The topic of this thread is the morality of copyright violation,
Sibe's charetor is irrelivent to this discussion.
iBuck
>the morality of copyright.
Which has developed a side bar argument i.e. the one this spun of of, to
determine the weight that should be given to any particular person's moral
authoity..
Unfortunatly, given the -subjective- nature of "morality" the morals of people
offering positions, is inherantly intertwined. As can amply be demonstrated by
the rise and fall of Bill Bennet.
In this case the discussion is of the morality of copyright -as seen by Sibe's
moral compass- , which form other incidents can be demonstrated to be warped.
>That wouldn't that make your argument circular.
>"Copyright violation is immoral."
>"Why is it immoral?"
>"Because Side does it and he is an immoral person."
If that was the argument that I was making, which it's not.
>BTW this is
> the very deffition of an Ab Hom argument.
True, which is Which is not the argument that I'm making.
Mine goes like this
"We can demonstrate that Sibe is an immoral person, should we accept his
position on matters of morality, as a valid authority?"
>Sibe's charetor is irrelivent to this discussion.
Except as to determine his qualifications to provide moral guidance. It goes to
the weight of the evidence.
Don Sanders
says...
> lncra...@aol.com.star (iBuck) writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > >Sibe's lack of morallity
> > >has nothing to do with it.
> > >
> >
> > Sibe's lack of morality has everything to do with a discussion of
> > his morality,
>
> However this isn't a discussion of Sibes morality, its a discussion of
> the morality of copyright.
>
> > especially when he claims a moral high ground for his actions..
>
> That wouldn't that make your argument circular.
>
> "Copyright violation is immoral."
>
> "Why is it immoral?"
>
> "Because Side does it and he is an immoral person." <- BTW this is
> the very deffition of an Ab Hom argument.
>
> "Why is Sibe immoral?"
>
> "Because he violates copyright and Copyright violation is immoral."
>
>
> The topic of this thread is the morality of copyright violation,
> Sibe's charetor is irrelivent to this discussion.
>
>
Not to say the person in question is of questionable character, but
consider the responses you received. A vast majority of them are not
from the average fans but from those who provide content to those fans.
The average fan who have not been made privy to the antics of the person
discussed would not be so opinionated, however add in the mix of those
wanting to protect their customer base and... well you get the picture.
On the other hand, those who do provide content do have a right to
protect their interests, that I am not disputing, but one would think a
better way to convey their concerns should have been sought other than
alright character bashing. Let's face it, he who I will not mention at
the moment is already a sore subject in the genre, why make him larger
than life?
--
Don Sanders.
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
[...]
> Unfortunatly, given the -subjective- nature of "morality" the morals
> of people
> offering positions, is inherantly intertwined.
I don't beleave that this is the case. At the core there is an
objective standard that can be resolved threw logical argument.
[...]
> In this case the discussion is of the morality of copyright -as seen
> by Sibe's moral compass- , which form other incidents can be
> demonstrated to be warped.
You can use this argument to demonstrate all mannor of things are
immoral just because Sibe does them. At some point we have
> >That wouldn't that make your argument circular.
>
> >"Copyright violation is immoral."
>
> >"Why is it immoral?"
>
> >"Because Side does it and he is an immoral person."
>
> If that was the argument that I was making, which it's not.
>
> >BTW this is
> > the very deffition of an Ab Hom argument.
>
> True, which is Which is not the argument that I'm making.
>
> Mine goes like this
>
> "We can demonstrate that Sibe is an immoral person, should we accept his
> position on matters of morality, as a valid authority?"
That would only be a valid argument if Sibe was making an argument
from authority. The arugment I saw (the one that was a derivative of
RMS's why software should not have owners) was a logical one built up
from axionic concepts.
iBuck
>objective standard that can be resolved threw logical argument.
Which is impossible to resolve, without weighing the various 'goods' vs the
various 'evils' which tends to be a subjective matter, especially when it
comes to immateral benefits and goods.
>You can use this argument to demonstrate all mannor of things are
>immoral just because Sibe does them
But again, I'm not saying that copyright infringment is immoral -because- sibe
does it. In other arguments I've stated very clearly why I feel that it is so,
for reasons that have -nothing- to do with Sibe' s other actions.
That being said, the actions cited show a marked tendancy on Sibe's part to
give great weight to what is likely to affect -him- while all but ignoring
affects to others.
As he's -not- giving a balanced (or in my opinion -honest-) judgement on the
harms and goods caused by his actions, I feel very little to no weight should
be given to his anylisis.
>That would only be a valid argument if Sibe was making an argument
>from authority.
And as I stated, I belive that almost all moral arguments are of that type...
>The arugment I saw (the one that was a derivative of
>RMS's why software should not have owners) was a logical one built up
>from axionic concepts.
That never the less contained subjective value judgements as to the weight
given to various harms and goods. An examanation of those values is
appropriate.
Also RMS's thesis operates in a branch of IP that has very difrent dynamics
than the furry art one. The main one being that furry art unlike software does
not have a 'source' that can be concealed.
As a final note, I would point out that you yourself have made numerous
arguments that by your own rules qualify as Ab-Hom, such as the allegation
that current copyright laws were passed in a corrupt process, and citations of
what you consider to be the immoral behavior of the RIAA/SBA/MPAA et al. and
have not been chided for making Ab-Homs, or on the civility of the argument.
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
> >I don't beleave that this is the case. At the core there is an
> >objective standard that can be resolved threw logical argument.
>
> Which is impossible to resolve, without weighing the various 'goods' vs the
> various 'evils' which tends to be a subjective matter, especially when it
> comes to immateral benefits and goods.
There are a number of objective and semiobjective methods to do this.
Meany of which are often employed by economists. Further more there
are systems of morality that do not employ this type of waying up of
evils but rather base themselves on pricipals.
[...]
> That being said, the actions cited show a marked tendancy on Sibe's part to
> give great weight to what is likely to affect -him- while all but ignoring
> affects to others.
Sibe seems to have taken a leaf out of the George Bush's foreign
policy :D
> As he's -not- giving a balanced (or in my opinion -honest-) judgement on the
> harms and goods caused by his actions,
This is a debait, isn't balence provided by having people present
diffrent sides of the case?
[...]
> >That would only be a valid argument if Sibe was making an argument
> >from authority.
>
> And as I stated, I belive that almost all moral arguments are of
> that type...
Could you point out from sibe's essay where his arguments come from
authority?
[...]
> Also RMS's thesis operates in a branch of IP that has very difrent dynamics
> than the furry art one. The main one being that furry art unlike
> software does not have a 'source' that can be concealed.
But it does have the possablity of directivertive works being
created. I don't belave that RMS just wishes sources to be
unconcealed but also the freedom to use thouse sources to create
directivertive works.
> As a final note, I would point out that you yourself have made numerous
> arguments that by your own rules qualify as Ab-Hom, such as the allegation
> that current copyright laws were passed in a corrupt process,
I don't see how this is ab-hom.
> and
> citations of
> what you consider to be the immoral behavior of the RIAA/SBA/MPAA
The RIAA is not a human so therefore I don't consider that style of
attack ab-hom.
> et al. and
> have not been chided for making Ab-Homs, or on the civility of the argument.
If these attacks reduced the civility of the argument then I should
have.
Wanderer
<snip>
>
> Could you point out from sibe's essay where his arguments come from
> authority?
>
<snip>
Here's the definition:
Argument from Authority
(np) 1. An argument of the form "the proposition X must be true because Y, a
recognized authority, says it is true," as a substitute for actual
evaluation of X. In conjunction with other evidence, the argument can help
support a conclusion by demonstrating that others have come to the same
result. Often involves quoting the "authority" in a field outside of their
actual field of expertise. (d) The authority actually is speaking on a topic
well outside his field of expertise. Example: "William Shockley said, Nature
has color-coded groups of individuals so that statistically reliable
predictions of their adaptability to intellectually rewarding and effective
lives can easily be made and profitably be used by the pragmatic man in the
street." While Shockley worked wonders in semiconductor technology, his
acumen in sociology was not high. See fallacy. 2. Absolute, incontrovertible
evidence for the truth of X, provided Y is God or the Bible. [conn., SciCre,
TAE] 3. Absolute, incontrovertible evidence for the truth of X, provided Y
is Krishna or the Rig-Vedas. [conn., Kalki] 4. Absolute, incontrovertible
evidence for the truth of X, provided Y is Velikovsky or _Aeon_ magazine.
[conn., Ted Holden]
(I don't get that last one, but let's move on.) Since most of Sibe's
diatribe was cribbed from the topic of software anti-piracy, he's using the
"information wants to be free" oremise outisde its original design scope:
It was stated in connection with software, not artwork. Therefore, he is
taking the authority who stated that "information wants to be free; I want
to get paid", misquoting him, and attributing the target of the quote
incorrectly. This is an argument from authority. (Since he never cites his
quotes, he also makes an Appeal to Popularity", and appeal to authority that
takes the form of, "everyone knows".)
Yours wolfishly,
The logical,
Mystik Monkey
pretend like he never existed.
On 2004-02-22 05:33:59 -0800, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa}
Dave the Rotating Hyena
until great Birnam wood to high alt.fan.furry. hill shall come against
him.
>Sibe has a jail cell waiting for him come monday morning. Now let us
>pretend like he never existed.
So you claim my child.
---
Vote Socialist in 2004
iBuck
>attack ab-hom.
If they're not human can immoral behavior be acribed to them?
iBuck
>created.
Which has little to nothing to do with Sibe's -distubition- centered
argument...