When good artists go bad...
Daphne Lage
couple of days and I just have to
finally speak up about it.
I purchased the latest issue of FURRLOUGH (#85) and of everything in that issue,
what stood out the most for me was the Joe Rosales cover.
And that's *not* a good thing.
At first, I didn't even recognize the artwork and was shocked to find out from
the credits that it was indeed from Joe. For those of you who didn't get your
copy yet, the cover depicts an anthro variation of the Four Horsemen of the
Apocalypse - a bull for war, a locust for famine, a rat for plague, and a raven
for death.
Now where do I even start?
Composition: Just from this standpoint alone, it was obvious to me that there
wasn't that much thought involved in this aspect. The characters look like they
were slapped together leaving me to think that they were drawn separately
without any consideration as to how the figures would relate to each other.
Death especially looks like a last minute detail - he is small and distant away
from the main characters, barely fitting in the empty area between the Rat and
the logo. It looks like Joe was just about finished when he realized he had
forgotten one character.
Medium: My guess is that there was an attempt at watercolors although Jose
thinks it was done with Cray-pas. Either way, it is a lose/lose situation. If
this is Joe Rosales' first attempt at whatever medium this was, it shows. But if
it wasn't, then I only shudder to think what his first attempt *did* look like.
The colors chosen for this image are gaudy at best and the color combinations
are poorly thought out. He has a brown/red bull on top of a red horse (Same
problem with the dark blue locust on top of the black/blue horse). Now I
understand what he was trying to do here but there is not enough variation
between the two colors to make either the horse or the rider stand out. The
characters just end up melting into one color blob that is made only more
painful to the eyes when combined with the bright orange/yellow background.
There is an attempt to break up the color with the addition of a green and blue
blotch effect at the bottom but it only accents how gaudy the color choices are.
Even if you count in the color changes that occur with printing, the colors of
this piece was *that bad* to begin with.
The drawing itself: Anyone looking through Joe Rosales' portfolio online can see
the detail and cleanliness of line he is capable of drawing. So what happened
here? The four characters look like they were made up as he was painting as
their designs are uninspired and rushed looking. The rat character especially
has this feel as it looks like there was an attempt to make him look like a
Persian warrior but the purple spandex outfit just destroys the look he was
trying to capture.
Overall this piece is not one of Joe Rosales' best work, not by a longshot. I'll
give him credit for coming up with what *could* have turned out to be a clever
design - the usage of the locust especially so. But not only did he drop the
ball, I think he should have *known* better than make this piece public at all.
Joe Rosales prides himself with being an accomplished professional artist and
the overall high quality of his portfolio makes that his right. But doesn't the
line get drawn somewhere? (excuse the pun) Did he actually feel that this piece
was good enough to send to Radio as a cover or did he think that just because
he's Joe Rosales of "Wildlifers" fame that people will forgive the amateur
nature of the piece? I just can't fathom that someone of his skill could miss
the obvious mistakes that this image has and still consider it professional. It
marks him as either ignorant or arrogant.
But my questions don't stop with Joe. How last minute was this piece that Elin
Winkler, who edits the book, could not tell Joe to give her a better image? I
know from personal experience that covers are the easiest part of a comic to put
together. I find it hard to believe that there was no other artist that Radio
could have turned to for an alternate cover. Just because an artist is scheduled
for a particular issue doesn't mean they have to accept any old image they
happen to whip up on the way to the Post Office.
Despite the saying, people *do* judge a book - even comic books by their covers.
Since I started submitting to Furrlough, I was making it a habit to hang up each
issue above my drawing table for inspiration. Thanks to this cover, there will
be a skip on my wall.
Now as to why this issue is especially bothering me to the point of posting. The
last couple of weeks,
especially on the Yerf newsgroups, there has been some heated discussion over
good & bad art, the popularity of some amateur artists, and what
constitutes"hacks." Even I have been critical of starting artists who try to
attempt more risqué material without the benefit of basic art technique. It has
always been argued that the Internet should not be treated as a fridge door for
every amateur attempt at drawing to be uploaded. But basically all of the
negative flack has been directed towards the budding artist almost exclusively.
Well, I think the same critical eye should be aimed towards the so-called pro
artists in this
fandom as well. Just because people consider certain artists "pro" doesn't mean
that they should get away with bad habits that we as a community try to
discourage
budding artists from doing. Critique is not something solely to be aimed at
starting artists - it is something at ALL artists must be subject to for their
own good or else bad habits will settle in quickly.
They say that an artist is their own worst critic but sometimes they can also be
their loudest cheerleader much to their detriment. An artist *should* be told if
their artwork is not up to
the level their previous art has shown, and if necessary, *should* be rejected
if it is a professional job. At the place I am working at now, the editor
actually *financially penalizes* artists who create work not up to spec and they
must take time to fix it (magazine publishers *must* meet their printing
schedule or else the *printer* punishes them for holding up the press). Even
though this is not the case for Radio, they shouldn't feel pressured by an
artist to accept a piece that obviously does not benefit the publication. And
just because furry fans purchase the book anyway, does not excuse the fact that
the piece is sub-standard.
I don't want to sound like I'm picking on Joe Rosales specifically, nor do I
want to sound like I'm speaking for Elin or Radio. If it was any other artist *I
expected better from* I would have done the same thing. I
can see with this cover that he is not working at the quality level he *should*
be working on and it only cheapens his skill and the publication. I expected
better from him and It's because of this that I felt cheated. If he
wants to practice new techniques then by all means, but he should have waited
until he got somewhat proficient at it before committing the artwork to a
professional publication.
Even if Elin did like the piece it is of course her right to publish it, but it
doesn't change my opinion of it. And just
because Radio isn't a mainstream publisher, doesn't mean that FURRLOUGH should
be treated like a fanzine. Amateur or pro, we should always try to put out best
artistic foot forward.
--Daphne Lage
****************************************************************
THE EGOWORKS
Comic Book & Fantasy Art by Daphne Lage
http://www.egoworks.com/
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"The only thing you can change is yourself,
but sometimes that changes everything." - Anonymous
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"Mediocrity - It takes a lot less time, and most people
won't notice the difference until it's too late"
****************************************************************
Charles Calthrop
> I'm probably going to get flamed but this has been bothering me for the past
> couple of days and I just have to
> finally speak up about it.
>
> I purchased the latest issue of FURRLOUGH (#85) and of everything in that issue,
> what stood out the most for me was the Joe Rosales cover.....
Is there anywhere I can see this picture ? Radio Comics apparently hasn't updated
their page. And I can't find the magazine...
Thanks !
- Chacal
William Earl Haskell
>
> I'm probably going to get flamed but this has been bothering me for the past
> couple of days and I just have to
> finally speak up about it.
>
> I purchased the latest issue of FURRLOUGH (#85) and of everything in that issue,
> what stood out the most for me was the Joe Rosales cover.
>
> And that's *not* a good thing.
[big snip]
Wait a minute [goes out of room, comes back with new issue of Furrlough]
what, this *can't be Joe Rosales' work ... it must be ... his EVIL TWIN!
To tell the truth, I didn't even recognize it as having anything to do
with JR. Whatever happened to him, I hope he gets better soon. {:(
Kagur
>updated
>their page. And I can't find the magazine...
>
>Thanks !
Try the Mailbox Books page...they have a picture of the cover.
www.mailboxbooks.com
Kagur
*Paragon*
"Daphne Lage" <egor...@egoworks.com> wrote:
> But my questions don't stop with Joe. How last minute was this piece
that Elin
> Winkler, who edits the book, could not tell Joe to give her a better
image? I
> know from personal experience that covers are the easiest part of a
comic to put
> together. I find it hard to believe that there was no other artist
that Radio
> could have turned to for an alternate cover. Just because an artist is
scheduled
> for a particular issue doesn't mean they have to accept any old image
they
> happen to whip up on the way to the Post Office.
>
This brings up an interesting point, which Elin could answer. Consumers
usually won't know what alternate covers were possible for any given
comic, so I too am curious--what other choices were there? Is the cover
piece given in advance to a particular artist to do, or does Elin have
a pool of cover pieces to choose from?
--
*Paragon*, The Unidragryphoenix
http://www3.cybercities.com/k/karkadann
Fortune go with you, wherever your journeys take you!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
SilverJain
usually won't know what alternate covers were possible for any given
comic, so I too am curious--what other choices were there? Is the cover
piece given in advance to a particular artist to do, or does Elin have
a pool of cover pieces to choose from?>>
Usually, if a cover is scheduled, and solicited to the distributors and
retailers, that is the cover you should do your 100% best to use. Delivering
product that differs too wildly from what you solicit (and bear in mind we do
our solicitations 4 months before the book actually gets on the stands),
retailers could conceivably return the books to distibutors for credit. And
yes, covers are assigned in advance, usually because I already have seen the
finished piece. I try to avoid scheduling anything that isn't already finished
and in my hands, as it causes problems later.
Usually, I have a batch of "extra" covers on hand in case of emergencies (ie: a
deadline is missed, a computer file is corrupted, an artist has a family
emergency, etc.). Joe's cover was delivered to us literally the day before we
*had* to take the book to the printers (to avoid late penalties), so there was
no time to ask for any changes to be made. And with a monthly book like
Furrlough, there literally is no time in the schedule for missed deadlines.
--Elin at Radio
"Well that's it then, you see what you wanna see and you hear what you wanna
hear." -- The Rock Man, "The Point"
DishRoom1
#85 cover till I noticed what looks like Joe's unique signature over on the
left. Then I turned to the frontpiece underneath. The cover was credited to
Joe.
I agree for one that the Death character is too far away from the other three
Horsemen (horsefurs?) It would've been better to have him closer to the cover.
Also it would have been better if the picture was drawn with clear solid
outlines and colors, as in Joe's other art, rather than being something like a
bad attempt to duplicate the animated "Watership Down" movie style, with a bad
choice in tones and hues in watercolors. There are no solid outlines of the
characters depicted. Similar as to what Daphne sad, just rough flat blobs of
paint. It's much better when Joe was drawing something like "wildlifers" and
"Lemuria" that his characters then have solid bodies with outlines.
I do like how the horses' (from the Furrlough 85 cover) where foaming out mad
saliva, though.
Jetstone Tigre Dish...@aol.com
TriGem Olandarinse
*snipped for bandwith*
--Daphne LageYou won't get a flame from my Mrs./Ms. Lage.. Just a compliment. When artists who have beein around a while or are respected finally start to voice up and offer critisism and other words about the artwork produced it is a good step on making things better in the fandom. When those who are 'higher up' so to say start getting on the cases of other artists, it shows that someone gives a damn abou things and the way things are done.
****************************************************************
Now.. I haven't seen the issue of Furrlough in question as nowhere even remotely local to me carries it, but to have you in such a huff about it to post, then it hasta be of a high caliber to do so.
Take care.
--
/--------------------------------------\
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Farry
<egor...@egoworks.com> wrote:
>...
>I purchased the latest issue of FURRLOUGH (#85) and of everything in that issue,
>what stood out the most for me was the Joe Rosales cover.
>
>And that's *not* a good thing.
>...
Hmmm... It's a bit difficult for me to judge this since I've only got
the scanned image to go by. The bull looks clear enough but the other
figures are blurred by the low resolution:
http://www.mailboxbooks.com/images/furr85.jpg
The flat colours and lack of outlines make the bull look as though it
had just emerged from a furnace, glowing with internal heat. Presumably
that was the intent, so in that respect, it works for me. I dunno -
maybe I'll change my mind when I see the actual cover.
--
|\ /|
| \'_| Farry
___.-' @ `--o
/// / ____,' fa...@earthling.net
/ / ///~~/ ICQ 8277359
Forrest
"Daphne Lage" <egor...@egoworks.com> wrote :
>The colors chosen for this image are gaudy at best and the color
combinations
>are poorly thought out.
Didn't JAR mention that he's color-blind? or am I thinking of SAG?
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> Didn't JAR mention that he's color-blind? or am I thinking of SAG?
That's SAG, who does reasonably well with color in spite of it.
--
The greatest tragedy is that the same species that achieved space flight,
a cure for polio, and the transistor, is also featured nightly on COPS.
-- Richard Chandler
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.
M. Mitchell Marmel
but it still beats the pants offa 90 percent of the material out there...
My $0.02.
--
============================================================================
M. Mitchell Marmel \ Scattered, smothered, covered, chunked,
Drexel University \ whipped, beaten, chained and pierced.
Department of Materials Engineering \ *THE BEST HASHBROWNS IN THE WORLD!*
Fibrous Materials Research Center \ marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu
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ICQ # 58305217
Michael Pena
Just looks like he is stretching out and trying something a bit
different.
It is certainly not what I would expect from Joe but that is a good
thing. I wouldn't want him stuck exclusively doing happy, smiley ink
work for the rest of his days.
The style(but not the subject matter) reminds me of the impressionist
era, especially Dega's soft pastel work.
As for the color combinations being painful to the eye it does not
have that effect on me. But then again I like weird color
combinations(I am a big Lisa Frank fan).
If a specific style was desired for the cover he should have been
told.
Sincerely,
Michael Angel Peña(AKA Sparrow...A Rabbit)
Artist-Laughing Rabbit Graphics
http://lonestar.texas.net/~sparrow/sparrow.htm
Joe Rosales
Daphne emailed me her posting regarding my cover, which was a good thing
as my ISP's good news server was very iffy and I wasn't reading any
newsgroups. It seems to be running now, at least for today, so now I
can take a look.
Below is the correspondence I sent back to her; I thought you all might
like to take a look. It doesn't make things any better, but at least it
provides some of the flight data.
It is a sad truth that sometimes one spends a great deal of time,
effort, skill and energy on a good idea, and it still doesn't amount to
much of anything.
* * * * * *
Eyo, Daphne --
Thanks for forwarding your recent post. My ISP recently axed their
better news server and as a result I've seen very few recent posts to
a.f.f., and would probably have missed responding to it in any way.
Your criticisms regarding my cover for Furrlough #85 are quite
justified. I got first look at it over a week ago before it hit the
stands, and I can safely say that no one was unhappier with it than me.
The really unfortunate thing is that a great deal of work went into the
piece, and I spent more time and effort on it than for any cover I've
done to date. To end up with something so mediocre was a spectacular
failure on many fronts. It's probably the "Ishtar" of Furrlough covers.
Where to begin? Since you request some clarification, I may as well use
the points you have already provided:
> Composition: Just from this standpoint alone, it was obvious to me
> that there wasn't that much thought involved in this aspect. The
> characters look like they were slapped together leaving me to think
> that they were drawn separately without any consideration as to how
> the figures would relate to each other. Death especially looks like
> a last minute detail - he is small and distant away from the main
> characters, barely fitting in the empty area between the Rat and
> the logo.
Not true. The figure composition was worked out to a fine degree, but
was not quite used in the printing as I thought. The piece was actually
supposed to be a little larger on the cover, and I left room on the
right, top, and bottom to be trimmed off. (The original piece is almost
exactly proportioned to 10.5" x 6.75", the size of a pre-trimmed
cover.) The point of War's sword was supposed to be just under the logo
and the edge of Death's scythe was supposed to be right on it, and the
tip of War's horse's chin was supposed to be the cutting point at the
bottom. I probably just figured it too close. I believe my biggest
compositional error was leaving too much space for the Radio logo in the
upper left corner of the piece, which I thought would come down more
under the title.
All the figures are placed well physically. The positioning of Death
was very deliberate, to make him remote and separate from the other
Horsemen. He is not the one who brings havoc to the world; he is the
one who comes after. His relaxed pose is likewise a contrasting element
to the action of the first three Horsemen.
The real problem with the relationship of the four figures on the page
is their color composition, which works against the physical positioning
to draw the figures out of their actual and intended alignment. Having
gone over this in minute detail with Pat, who has much more color theory
than I do -- and believe me, since seeing this printed out I've gone
over every millimeter of it, over and over -- there's several changes
that I should have made to make the pic stronger, such as making the
central figure of War much, much darker and blurring over some of the
mid- and background figure detail. Pat spotted these immediately, but
unfortunately he was not the one who did the scanning and final
processing of the cover so none of them happened.
> Medium: My guess is that there was an attempt at watercolors although
> Jose thinks it was done with Cray-pas. Either way, it is a lose/lose
> situation. If this is Joe Rosales' first attempt at whatever medium
> this was, it shows.
Fair enough! This was actually done in acrylics, and was my first hack
at painting with them since the cover of Genus #18 way back in July
1996. Even the "Seed Bat" cover of Furrlough #67, which had a lot of
acrylic on it, was essentially a hybrid, with large parts of it finished
with watercolors and markers. So it can be said that this was my first
real use of acrylics. (For a look at what my watercolors look like, see
the cover of Furrlough #28.)
> The colors chosen for this image are gaudy at best and the color
> combinations are poorly thought out. He has a brown/red bull on top
> of a red horse (Same problem with the dark blue locust on top of the
> black/blue horse). Now I understand what he was trying to do here but
> there is not enough variation between the two colors to make either
> the horse or the rider stand out. The characters just end up melting
> into one color blob that is made only more painful to the eyes when
> combined with the bright orange/yellow background. There is an
> attempt to break up the color with the addition of a green and blue
> blotch effect at the bottom but it only accents how gaudy the color
> choices are. Even if you count in the color changes that occur with
> printing, the colors of this piece was *that bad* to begin with.
I'll just plead guilty on most of these counts.
Part of the problem was just inexperience with acrylics. I did not have
as much a sense of how the color would shift when they dried, or when
they scanned, or when they were converted for printing as I would have
for watercolors. Effects which I can accomplish easily in other mediums
eluded and frustrated me in this one. I certainly can't say that it
turned out the way I wanted.
I also picked a very difficult piece -- probably too difficult for me at
so early in my learning curve for the new medium. My usual method of
learning new techniques and media is to take on very, very difficult and
complex pieces and problems and attack them vigorously and over a long
period; then to move back to simpler uses of the techniques I've learned
by doing so. However, my initial seige usually turns out more
successful than it did here. I have a lot to learn about color theory,
and about how acrylics behave.
That said, there was a LOT of color shifting on this cover and none of
it for the better. I have the original here next to me, and the
differences made by scanning and CMYKing it without correction are
dramatic. The background of the original is not the crayon-looking
peach and yellow patches on the cover, but an orange-yellow wash that
blends evenly and without edges. The figures of Famine and its horse
are much darker on the cover than on the original; in the painting the
horse is mostly a medium gray and not at all blue-tinted, and Famine is
covered with light highlights and dark shadows that almost all ended up
being flattened out to an indistinct uniform blue. The same with Death,
who lost almost all of the white and gray highlights on his cloak and
wings. And War and his horse ended up much, much redder on the cover --
in the painting the horse is almost brown (and the colors on him blend
much more evenly, I might add), and the figure of War is the color of
dark leather. To give you an idea of the difference, the tip of his
sword, which is red-peach on the cover and so blends with the
background, is actually on the original brown.
Not to claim that I made the best color choices and that it was all
messed up in production. Knowing more about acrylics, I should have
stayed away from the more saturated colors I actually used. But on the
original the figures are at least distinct and clear and separated from
the background, which is not how it turned out on the cover.
> ...their designs are uninspired and rushed looking. The rat character
> especially has this feel as it looks like there was an attempt to
> make him look like a Persian warrior but the purple spandex outfit
> just destroys the look he was trying to capture.
Actually that's a Hellenistic Greek archer's outfit, which were pretty
tight.
I did attempt to make the outfit designs somewhat less elaborate than I
normally do, partly to make the characters more timeless by also because
I thought any really intricate outfits would -really- screw me up in the
painting stage. As it turned out, it's just as well I didn't try that
too.
> But my questions don't stop with Joe. How last minute was this piece
> that Elin Winkler, who edits the book, could not tell Joe to give her
> a better image?
To be honest, I have to take the blame for this too. I asked Elin, far
ahead of time, to do this cover, which I had wanted to do for years. I
like Biblical imagery, and thought the turning of Y2K would be the
perfect time for it. I then worked on it for so long I ended up holding
the book up. And, unfortunately, Elin has found that she gets unhappy
letters when she solicits a cover by me and then does not run it for
some reason -- apparently some people are buying stuff simply because I
did it. (This may well change that, though.) So I obligated myself to
do the cover, and after it was solicited and late she was pretty much
obligated to run it.
> I think he should have *known* better than make this piece public
> at all.
It's a very unfortunate thing when someone has to fail in public, and
infinitely more so when that someone is me. I *hate* it when I can't do
something well, and I bury as much of the evidence as I can. But every
so often, something escapes.
Upon turning this piece in, I honestly didn't think it was all that
bad. Perhaps it was because I had worked on it for so long, or because
I was only looking at the original and had no clear conception of what
it would lose in the translation, which turned out to be a lot. I
realized that it was a lesser piece of work for me, but I was satisfied
with how it had turned out -- as I said, I had worked on it for a -long-
time, on the order of two months from start to finish, and most of that
was spent ironing out as many problems as I could in the color and
composition. I did not feel that it was a piece I would not want seen.
Of the three or four other pros (who've all also done Radio covers) that
I asked to look over the original while it was sitting in Elin's office,
none of them save Pat had any incisive criticism of the piece. I'm
always unhappy with the quality of my work so I was fishing for hefty
criticism, but I got almost none. I hesitate to think that all of us
were completely blind or stupid, so I can only guess that the original
at least somehow shows its faults less. I was certainly mortified when
I first saw the actual cover of the comic, and wondered what the hell
had gone wrong -- I'm totally with you there. As Elin will attest, I
walked around her apartment for twenty minutes asking "Was it that bad
when I turned it IN?" I didn't expect it to look so poor any more than
you did.
I can't say in any sense that I'm happy with how all this turned out.
No one wishes more than me that I could go back in time and fix this
somehow, and as you pointed out I'm the one who has to live with it.
It's said that doctors get to bury their mistakes, but chefs have to eat
theirs. Artists get theirs shipped all over the country, where paying
customers look at it and say "What the hell is THIS crap?" and then
discuss how bad it is amongst themselves.
Things I've learned from this experience:
1. Acrylics come in illegal colors, which is asking for trouble.
2. I should stick to coloring covers on computer like I used to, at
least for the foreseeable future. That's how everyone else does them
now, and there's some darn good reasons for it.
3. If I absolutely -have- to paint something, I should scan it my damn
self, correct all the colors and contrast, CMYK it, and do some test
prints to make sure the color at least roughly match up to the original.
Hard lessons in art. My only consolations in this whole affair is that
some of my most favorite artists were also bedevilled by bad color work
and eventually overcame it; and that people like you expected better
from both myself and Radio, indicating that work of this low caliber is
not the norm for either of us. Small comfort, now that it's done. All
that can happen now is for me to try to do better next time -- although
judging from what happened this time, I don't think that will be
terribly difficult. I owe an apology to you and the other artists in
the issue who have to be leaned on to pick up my slack. I won't do
something like this again.
> Overall this piece is not one of Joe Rosales' best work, not by
> a longshot.
Boy, I'll back you up on that one.
-- Joe
TriGem Olandarinse
> Have the issue, looked at the cover. It might not be Joe's best work,
> but it still beats the pants offa 90 percent of the material out there...
>
> My $0.02.
>
> --
> ============================================================================
> M. Mitchell Marmel \ Scattered, smothered, covered, chunked,
*LAUGHS*
Good way to put it, should quiet this thread down now. :) *G*
--
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._<Idendtifcation>
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._TriGem Olandarinse, Thé £ùPhrªnítÉ
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._AKA: Alan Kennedy, ICQ: 8781052
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´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._FCW[Luphra'nite Bioroid]cms3dmrw A+
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._C+ D++ H+ M++ P+ R+++ T+ W Z Sm
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._RLAT/U a23 cdnw++++ d++ e+ f+ h
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._iwf++ j++ p sm+ -<Decode It>-
´¯`·.|¸¸.·´|_._http://www.vulpine.pp.se/cgi-bin/furcode
^spam trap^ - If you don't like it, tough :P
Cerulean
your mistake, to wit: As a pens-and-pencils man myself, it shall be a
long, long time before the public preconception of what makes a "real
artist" tempts me again to try to work with paint.
--
___vvz /( Cerulean = Kevin Pease http://cerulean.st/
<__,` Z / ( DC2.~D GmAL~W-R+++Ac~J+S+Fr++IH$M-V+++Cbl,spu
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( pn>S-,,'6u!Joq aJam hayL 'a7doad >unJp aJam aJayL,,
Rick Pikul
>
> "Daphne Lage" <egor...@egoworks.com> wrote :
>
> >The colors chosen for this image are gaudy at best and the color
> combinations
> >are poorly thought out.
>
SAG, remember the green fox incident in Albedo?
--
Phoenix
tamar_...@my-deja.com
Joe Rosales <joea...@NOSPAMstic.net> wrote:
> Hey folks --
>
> Daphne emailed me her posting regarding my cover, which was a good
thing
> as my ISP's good news server was very iffy and I wasn't reading any
> newsgroups. It seems to be running now, at least for today, so now I
> can take a look.
>
> Below is the correspondence I sent back to her; I thought you all
might
> like to take a look. It doesn't make things any better, but at least
it
> provides some of the flight data.
>
> It is a sad truth that sometimes one spends a great deal of time,
> effort, skill and energy on a good idea, and it still doesn't amount
to
> much of anything.
>
To Daphne, Joe, and all those who read this thread, I think both
artists and critic should be applauded here for the way they've
conducted themselves as true artists and pros. Instead of blowing up
and creating a flame war the discussed the piece in question without
taking offense and giving insights to their opinions without trying to
crush the other person's. This is how a tread should be conducted and
I have to give both of you two thumbs up on allowing the public to see
how a real discussion tread should work.
Shawntae Howard
http://www.yerf.com/howashaw
http://www.redpanda.com/howart
Forrest
"Rick Pikul" <rwp...@idirect.com> wrote :
>remember the green fox incident in Albedo?
I think my subscription had lapsed by then.
But we need more green foxes.
Red and green foxes seem so...festive!
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
>In article <88vegg$f3$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>, Forrest
>
>€> Didn't JAR mention that he's color-blind? or am I thinking of SAG?
>
> I think you're thinking of SAG. He has the same troubles I do with
>greens and reds that have the same light value.
Red Green color-blindness is extreemly commen amoungst males. OTHO
you most likely have better night vision then most of us. In WWII R/G
CB people where selected as bombarddears for this perpose.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Matthew High
That had less to do with any color blindness, and more to do with computer
scanning and "illegal colors".
There are certain colors, especially bright yellows and oranges, which are
called "illegal colors" when it comes to printing. When scanned and converted
to CMYK, they can greatly shift towards green. If I remember correctly, Pat
covered this a bit in his photoshop article in the second issue of Mangaphile.
----------
"Matt! Come into the light" "No! I like the darkness!"
Distributor/Retailer Liaison Radio Comix http://www.radiocomix.com
Promotion/Sales Cold Cut Distribution http://www.coldcut.com
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
[...]
>There are certain colors, especially bright yellows and oranges, which are
>called "illegal colors" when it comes to printing. When scanned and converted
>to CMYK, they can greatly shift towards green.
Mmmm interesting. Aussie currency seems to make heavy use of bright
yellows and oranges in some places.
Dave Huang
Matthew High <matt...@aol.comPINKMEAT> wrote:
>>> Except for the green fox in that color issue of Albedo!<<
>
>That had less to do with any color blindness, and more to do with computer
>scanning and "illegal colors".
I thought Steve posted here saying that it was because of his red/green
color blindness... the other foxes in that issue were colored an
appropriate foxy color :)
--
Name: Dave Huang | Mammal, mammal / their names are called /
INet: kh...@bga.com | they raise a paw / the bat, the cat /
FurryMUCK: Dahan | dolphin and dog / koala bear and hog -- TMBG
Dahan: Hani G Y+C 24 Y++ L+++ W- C++ T++ A+ E+ S++ V++ F- Q+++ P+ B+ PA+ PL++
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
>On 28 Feb 2000 07:37:37 GMT, dfor...@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ?
>the Platypus)) (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) left the following
>spoor in alt.fan.furry:
>
>> Mmmm interesting. Aussie currency seems to make heavy use of bright
>> yellows and oranges in some places.
>
>than mixing CMYK.
Yep, the use alot of custom stuff, I expect they chouse the colors
that where had to reproduce just for this reson. Some of the inks are
chemicaly printed into the substraite while others are prinited ontop
of it. Also there are complex crosshatchings that cause pattens to be
procused when there scanned (I know the name for these but can't
recall it at the moment).
Dale Farmer
"David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:30:58 -0800, Dennis Lee Bieber <wulf...@dm.net> wrote:
> >On 28 Feb 2000 07:37:37 GMT, dfor...@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ?
> >the Platypus)) (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) left the following
> >spoor in alt.fan.furry:
> >
> >> Mmmm interesting. Aussie currency seems to make heavy use of bright
> >> yellows and oranges in some places.
> >
> > Probably using custom inks that are made in those colors rather
> >than mixing CMYK.
>
> Yep, the use alot of custom stuff, I expect they chouse the colors
> that where had to reproduce just for this reson. Some of the inks are
> chemicaly printed into the substraite while others are prinited ontop
> of it. Also there are complex crosshatchings that cause pattens to be
> procused when there scanned (I know the name for these but can't
> recall it at the moment).
Moiré effect. You would be correct in that some security features of
modern designed currencies are there specifically to foil digital scanners.
I am not a liberty to discuss details, but they technology used is just
fascinating. The rest of it is an extremely high level of quality control
in the printing process, so these security features actually are printed
correctly.
--Dale
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> There are certain colors, especially bright yellows and oranges, which
> are called "illegal colors" when it comes to printing. When scanned
> in the second issue of Mangaphile.
The correct turm is "Gamut" Color Gamut refers to the full range of colors
capable of being reproduced by a printing (or video) method. Computer
Monitors, for example, are cabaple of producing colors that can't be encoded
into NTSC. Pure Red, for example. If you've ever seen a computer graphic on
TV that was read with bright purple streaks come off of it, that was an out-
of-gamut red someone used in the graphic.
Photoshop includes methods of checking for out of Gamut colors, btw.
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
>
>
>"David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" wrote:
[...] Also there are complex crosshatchings that cause pattens to be
>> procused when there scanned (I know the name for these but can't
>> recall it at the moment).
>
>Moiré effect. You would be correct in that some security features of
>modern designed currencies are there specifically to foil digital
>scanners.
When I was in the city I visted the local office of the reserve bank
(there the people who run the milles in ausieland) they have a
wonderfull display about the securaty features in moden bills,
microprinting, plastic substrate, seethrew bits things that have to
line up just right, two types of printing.
Most of these things where stuff you where told to look out for so
that you knew you where not being given a dodgy note. They said that
the aus dollor was one of the hardest to counterfit.
Wanderer
not much use at night, when most colors have roughly the same value. That's
why, the more nocturnal a species is, the less color vision it has.
Yours wolfishly,
The semi-nocturnal,
Wanderer**wand...@ticnet.com
Where am I going?I don't quite know.
What does it matter where people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I*don't know!
Mathue wrote in message <8abe04$prh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <slrn8bjfos....@dformosa.zeta.org.au>,
> dfor...@zeta.org.au (David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)) wrote:
>
>> > I think you're thinking of SAG. He has the same troubles I do with
>> >greens and reds that have the same light value.
>>
>> Red Green color-blindness is extreemly commen amoungst males. OTHO
>> you most likely have better night vision then most of us. In WWII R/G
>> CB people where selected as bombarddears for this perpose.
>
> Hmm, didn't know that was a side benefit. And yes, my night vision
>is very good. I seem to manage far greater detail at night compared to
>several of my friends and associates. Interesting..
>
>
>--
>MT - Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
>
>101010
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
Wanderer <wand...@ticnet.com> wrote:
>It's the traditional tradeoff. Color sensitivity is great in daylight, but
>not much use at night, when most colors have roughly the same value. That's
>why, the more nocturnal a species is, the less color vision it has.
>
>Yours wolfishly,
>
>>> >greens and reds that have the same light value.
Yes, and it can be a real pain at times. Another aspect of the condition
is that I can't see pin-point colored lights or stars in color at all.
But I have fine low-light vison. Can get around fine in only limited star
light conditions, or with solid overcast, city light pollution, even well
outside, is enough to work with. The common genetic route is from
maternal grandfather to son, with the mother as unaffected carrier. My
mother's father was all but completely color blind. Oddly, none of my
brothers are color blind. Another interesting effect of color vision is
that in glaring sunlight, some color receptors will fade quicker than others.
When I was stationed in Florida, a day on the beach with the bright sun
and glaring white sand would wash out my color vison to the point that
the world looked like a bad ectachrome photo, sort of a bluish cast to
everything and only yellow standing out as a separate color. (and yellow
is the color the atmosphere is most transperent to and the color normal
eyes are most sensitive to)