Artists: Copyright Infringement Warning
oCeLoT
discovered within the past several weeks. Both people in question blatantly
ripped off my original artwork via tracing and adding different "features"
to the subjects, uploading the results without my permission, and trying to
pass off the work as entirely their own; needless to say I am quite
displeased.
The first is Enrico "Hellenic" Russo, whose Velar archive resides at
http://velar.ctrl-c.liu.se/vcl/Artists/Hellenic/. The image copied from my
own has since been deleted, but I now have it in my own web directory as
proof.
* Original:
http://velar.ctrl-c.liu.se/vcl/Artists/oCeLoT/mature/lo-yiff.gif
(original filedate: August 18, 1997)
* Copy: http://www.hooked.net/~ocelot/infringement/wo_sk_yiff.jpg
(original filedate prior to deletion: January 19, 1999)
The second is Meghan "Kichaa" Bergeron, who doesn't appear to be on the
major art acrhives, but has a web page located at
http://www.lionking.org/~kichaa/.
* Original: http://velar.ctrl-c.liu.se/vcl/Artists/oCeLoT/rwallaby.gif
(original filedate: March 1, 1998)
* Copy: http://www.hooked.net/~ocelot/infringement/rocksiac.gif
(filedate unknown -- doesn't matter much, it's an obvious hack)
Nearly all of Enrico Russo's pictures look eerily familliar in some way to
me -- I suspect the bulk of his work is actually traced from other sources
and slightly modified to cover his ass. One name that comes to mind is
Tremaine, but I have no proof yet (eg, two identical-looking drawings, one
by Tremaine dated earlier). If you are an artist, I encourage you to browse
through to make sure he has not stolen your art, as well.
As for Meghan Bergeron, my image appears to be the only one copied from
another source, but I can't be entirely sure. Let's just hope she doesn't
do it again, I don't want to get nasty.
</rant>
--oCe, pissed
+--------------------------------+------------+-------------------+
| Amara 'oCeLoT' Telgemeier | oCeLoT on | To reply by mail, |
| http://www.hooked.net/~ocelot/ | YiffNet/FM | beat a dead horse.|
+--------------------------------+------------+-------------------+
Dominic P. Cecava
<ocelot-ya02408000...@194.159.247.52>...
> This message is to warn others of two so-called artists whom I have
> discovered within the past several weeks. Both people in question
blatantly
> ripped off my original artwork via tracing and adding different
"features"
> to the subjects, uploading the results without my permission, and trying
to
> pass off the work as entirely their own; needless to say I am quite
> displeased.
>
>
> Nearly all of Enrico Russo's pictures look eerily familliar in some way
to
> me -- I suspect the bulk of his work is actually traced from other
sources
> and slightly modified to cover his ass. One name that comes to mind is
> Tremaine, but I have no proof yet (eg, two identical-looking drawings,
one
> by Tremaine dated earlier). If you are an artist, I encourage you to
browse
> through to make sure he has not stolen your art, as well.
>
> As for Meghan Bergeron, my image appears to be the only one copied from
> another source, but I can't be entirely sure. Let's just hope she doesn't
> do it again, I don't want to get nasty.
>
> </rant>
>
> --oCe, pissed
This reminds me of a old saying, "Imitation is the sincerest form of
flattery."
One one claw, you should be flattered that they're basing their art on
yours.
One the other claw, you should use said claw to rip their...well, I do see
your point.
Artists should be more original in their works, but up-and-comings artists
will almost always base their first drawings on other pics. But if they
continue to do that, then take action.
--
*Paragon*
The Unidragryphoenix
Fortune go with you, wherever your journeys take you!
Donald E. Sanders
says...
It's been awhile, really did not want to comment on this but I will put
in at least a little bit of my two cents worth into this. (And I mean
just a little too.)
> Artists should be more original in their works, but up-and-comings artists
> will almost always base their first drawings on other pics. But if they
> continue to do that, then take action.
>
Hard to tell really where and when to start. The main point is "Up and
Coming Artists!" Although I do agree, the blatant copying of other folks
art to exact measures is bad, to copy to a point where poses look
familiar or content look familiar may be bad. There was a example of
this a few years ago involving a few Lion King pictures.
I for one try very hard not to use the same material or styles as other
artists, but ask yourself one thing folks, What happens when you can't
become original anymore, what happens when your art style and way of
thinking is like another artist who may or may not be established.
As for the two artists mentioned in the original post, I sure hope they
do get their act together or else face the wrath of some very angry
artist. As for the rest of us, when faced with the possibility of
stepping on somebody else's toes, you gotta ask yourself one question.
"Is doing Furry Art really worth it?"
Well, I'm done for now, very much doubt if I will and any other comments
to this thread. Time to lurk again.
--
Don Sanders
Dsan Tsan on #furry of Yiffnet
RoadKill Fur (Sun baked sorta but not burned!)
Amateur Artist at Roll Yer Own Graphics
http://www.dreamscape.com/dsand101/dsan.htm
(my furry page) Email dsan...@future.dreamscape.com
Allen Kitchen
I had not thought of tracing someone's art to learn how to draw.
Very interesting... I'll have to give it a go sometime. I can't
possibly suck any worse than I do now.
1) Tracing to learn is one thing
2) Showing your traces online is another.
Tracing a picture is no better than Xeroxing it IMHO, and the work
shouldn't be put on the web without the original artist's approval.
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Cerulean
>Tracing a picture is no better than Xeroxing it IMHO, and the work
>shouldn't be put on the web without the original artist's approval.
In an infringement sense, you're right, it's not. But in an artistic
sense, well, there's a lot you can do to a picture in the process of
re-drawing it. If you do get the original artist's approval then
you're an inker. (Cue "Chasing Amy" clip) :=}
--
___vvz /( Cerulean * http://www.cerulean.st/
<__,` Z / ( DC.D/? fs+h++ Gm CB^P a$m++d+++l*g-e!i
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( aueJ) Ja!seJj 'Jp - ,,'a!>oo) e a^eH,,
schi...@my-dejanews.com
Allen Kitchen <all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
>
> I had not thought of tracing someone's art to learn how to draw.
> Very interesting... I'll have to give it a go sometime. I can't
> possibly suck any worse than I do now.
>
> 1) Tracing to learn is one thing
> 2) Showing your traces online is another.
>
> shouldn't be put on the web without the original artist's approval.
>
I've traced dozens (hundreds?) of pictures by Michelle Light over the years,
mostly from Shanda, in a so far vane etempted to improve my drawing. But I
would never try to pass them off as my own, even with them modified (like I
could modify anything without ruining it...shease). Intill you can draw
something on your own, you can't really lay clame to the work. And once you
can draw something out on your own, you're better then me...I MEAN, you
should leave the traceings behind as the learning tools they were, and take
pride it the work you now can do.
Schitzree
(Who can't wait till he can practice what he preaches)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Randy Entinger
(oCeLoT) wrote:
>This message is to warn others of two so-called artists whom I have
>discovered within the past several weeks. Both people in question blatantly
>ripped off my original artwork via tracing and adding different "features"
>to the subjects, uploading the results without my permission, and trying to
>pass off the work as entirely their own; needless to say I am quite
>displeased.
[snip]
This I have to agree with. Under no circumstances is it okay to rip
off poses that another artist has done, and post them as your own. And
it's even worse when you post them as your own. (I used to copy, not
trace, pictures out of an old Secret of NIMH comic book...but I never
claimed any of those to be of my own creation. I tended to feel more
pride out of things I had drawn on my own.)
>Nearly all of Enrico Russo's pictures look eerily familliar in some way to
>me -- I suspect the bulk of his work is actually traced from other sources
>and slightly modified to cover his ass. One name that comes to mind is
>Tremaine, but I have no proof yet (eg, two identical-looking drawings, one
>by Tremaine dated earlier). If you are an artist, I encourage you to browse
>through to make sure he has not stolen your art, as well.
I asked Enrico about it, and he said that yes, he did use my art as a
template for the faces/style. However, I'm not used to folks
imitating my style...in all honesty, I'm actually flattered that
someone would find my style good enough to copy. I've look at his
art, and I don't see any obvious poses that he might have copied from
me, so I have no other reason to be angry with him.
Besides, I know a good many artists who get their start by copying
those they most admire. It takes time before they develop their own,
original style...
And lastly, I don't see him as much of a "threat" to me as an artist.
A glance would tell me that these folks are not experienced artists.
And, being that they are not very experienced, instead of flaming to
heck and back, it would be wise to advise them against what they are
doing. Some people may not even realize what they are doing may be
considered "wrong" by the more established, and aren't familiar with
the "rules."
I don't regard this as a serious threat, but thanks for the heads-up.
:)
Tremaine the Hedgefox
Randy Entinger <trem...@execpc.com>
ICQ: 19673992
AOL Instant Messenger: DaHedgefox
http://www.catbox.com/tremaine
http://www.FurNation.com/Tremaine
"Do the voices in my head bother you?"
xip
wrote:
Man, you can trace pictures. Wish I was that good, I can't even draw a
straight line with a carpenters square.
--
Din' I tell you to stay away from the candles!!
XIP--fastest 'roo on the net
Mark Freid
copying when I started drawing Anthropomorphics. Somewhere in my apt are
drawings I did of characters such as Pogo, Rocket Raccoon, and Space
Wolf... but they stay there, in the bottom of a box, not to be shared.
Copying another artists work is great for practicing technique, and
developing a style that you like. But doing so and sharing it with the
public credited to yourself is a big no-no.
Mark
Allen Kitchen <all...@blkbox.com> wrote in article
<371AA568...@blkbox.com>...
Cathead232
> I've traced dozens (hundreds?) of pictures by Michelle Light over the
>years, mostly from Shanda, in a so far vane etempted to improve my
>drawing. But I would never try to pass them off as my own, even with
>them modified (like I could modify anything without ruining it...shease).
>better then me...I MEAN, you should leave the traceings behind as the
>learning tools they were, and take pride it the work you now can do.
>
>Schitzree (Who can't wait till he can practice what he preaches)
Stick with it, you're on the right track.
Shon Howell shon...@hotmail.com Burned Fur
"Why don't we wait til all the voices in your head come
to some agreement before we act?"
Donald E. Sanders
> On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:35:47 -0700, oce...@hookeddeadhorse.net
> (oCeLoT) wrote:
>
> >This message is to warn others of two so-called artists whom I have
> >discovered within the past several weeks. Both people in question blatantly
> >ripped off my original artwork via tracing and adding different "features"
> >to the subjects, uploading the results without my permission, and trying to
> >pass off the work as entirely their own; needless to say I am quite
> >displeased.
> [snip]
>
> This I have to agree with. Under no circumstances is it okay to rip
> off poses that another artist has done, and post them as your own. And
> it's even worse when you post them as your own. (I used to copy, not
> trace, pictures out of an old Secret of NIMH comic book...but I never
> claimed any of those to be of my own creation. I tended to feel more
> pride out of things I had drawn on my own.)
Now this is where I am getting quite confused here. Say for example
someone draws a picture of a (for example sake) cat holding a urn. This
cat holding the urn is standing in such a way that is striking a pose,
lets say one leg in front of the other, and let's add a expression to
that feline face. Now, we have a pose of a feline holding a urn done by
one artist. Are we saying that if another artist decides to use the same
pose, let's say a bunny holding a urn, with the same expression, and with
one leg in front of the other, is that Infringement??????????
Note that I have gotten away from the tracing discussion cause the
copying of poses has attracted my attention. Chances are I may be way
off base here since when I do copy poses, I tend to do it
freehand(freepaw) with no aid of trace paper or lightbox, except when I
am tracing my own work. Of course at this point, I have to think, is it
my own work now or has I inadvertently copied somebody's art without
knowing.
Think about it.
>
> >Nearly all of Enrico Russo's pictures look eerily familliar in some way to
> >me -- I suspect the bulk of his work is actually traced from other sources
> >and slightly modified to cover his ass. One name that comes to mind is
> >Tremaine, but I have no proof yet (eg, two identical-looking drawings, one
> >by Tremaine dated earlier). If you are an artist, I encourage you to browse
> >through to make sure he has not stolen your art, as well.
>
> I asked Enrico about it, and he said that yes, he did use my art as a
> template for the faces/style. However, I'm not used to folks
> imitating my style...in all honesty, I'm actually flattered that
> someone would find my style good enough to copy. I've look at his
> art, and I don't see any obvious poses that he might have copied from
> me, so I have no other reason to be angry with him.
It could be say that a good artist can be judged by how well they take
something like this. Although I do still respect the hot-heads out
there.
>
> Besides, I know a good many artists who get their start by copying
> those they most admire. It takes time before they develop their own,
> original style...
There has been many artists I would love to emulate to get a good style,
but seeing how the reactions of some artists are quite abrasive, it's the
only real reason I strive to develop my own style and stray away from
emulating others. Yes, Intimidation does work in some cases.
>
> And lastly, I don't see him as much of a "threat" to me as an artist.
> A glance would tell me that these folks are not experienced artists.
> And, being that they are not very experienced, instead of flaming to
> heck and back, it would be wise to advise them against what they are
> doing. Some people may not even realize what they are doing may be
> considered "wrong" by the more established, and aren't familiar with
> the "rules."
For some strange reason, when one becomes a artist, a certain mind set
tends to be adopted. I would say Prima Donna, but I figure I would be in
big trouble if I actually said it. In any case, flaming has different
effects on different amateur artists. As for "The Rules!" I myself
never had the chance to learn them, and of course when asked about "The
Rules!" no real answer is given.
>
> I don't regard this as a serious threat, but thanks for the heads-up.
> :)
>
Not a serious threat mind you, but one that makes a vast majority of
amateurs ask themselves, "Is it really worth it?"
oCeLoT
Re various peoples' remarks about tracing as a valid form of learning new
techniques from more advanced artists: I definately agree that there is no
harm in practicing your technical skills with an existing work/pose. We all
do it at some point. The problem I have, however, is that two people here
took it beyond practice, and reposted, without my permission or even my
knowledge, work based directly on my existing work. True, neither artist in
question is beyond the 'beginner' stage yet, nor any sort of large threat
to me, but I'd rather let them know early on that they can't get away with
that type of thing in the real world. Perhaps I'm saving them a lawsuit or
three further down the line.
In article <371be30f...@news.fysh.org>, trem...@execpc.com (Randy
Entinger) wrote:
> I've look at his
> art, and I don't see any obvious poses that he might have copied from
> me, so I have no other reason to be angry with him.
rocksiac.gif is really the one that's gotten me mad, here, not the other by
Enrico... but I figured I should mention both instances anyway. And, the
reason rocksiac.gif has me angry, is that the artist not only copied the
work blatantly and posted it online without credit, but additionally used
it as a *sample image* while applying to Yerf.
Now, anyone who knows a bit about applying to Yerf will tell you that
you're supposed to submit your *best* works, most representative of your
personal style and range. It's acceptable to trace work for personal
practice, even occasionally acceptable to post attempts with permission of
the original artist to show your progress, but applying to Yerf with copied
work is just downright *wrong*.
> instead of flaming to heck and back, it would be wise to advise them against
> what they are doing.
*nod* Agreed, they're not much of a threat... for the time being, at least.
I'd like to see it stay that way.
Just keep in mind that the older the unruly puppy gets, the harder it will
be to discipline him.
--oCe
oCeLoT
(Donald E. Sanders) wrote:
> Now this is where I am getting quite confused here. Say for example
> someone draws a picture of a (for example sake) cat holding a urn.
[snip]
> Are we saying that if another artist decides to use the same
> pose, let's say a bunny holding a urn, with the same expression, and with
> one leg in front of the other, is that Infringement??????????
If you'd never seen the drawing in question, and produced a similar picture
or similar pose without any conscious viewing of the original, I'd chalk it
up to coincidence. And, considering the number of 'stock poses' in frequent
use by furry artists, especially the beginner crowd, coincidences are not
uncommon. However, if you held the cat picture next to you and drew your
bunny picture *from* it, using the exact same minute line placement, style,
etc. save for a slight change in features, I'd call that infringement.
> It could be say that a good artist can be judged by how well they take
> something like this. Although I do still respect the hot-heads out
> there.
Well, I always say a good artist can be judged by the quality of their
-art-. *shrug* I know of fabulous artists who are complete jerks, and
mediocre artists who are extremely outgoing and overflowing with character.
90% of the time it's very hard to find a link between the two, personality
and artistic talent.
> Not a serious threat mind you, but one that makes a vast majority of
> amateurs ask themselves, "Is it really worth it?"
To pass a cheap knockoff of someone else's valid hard work as your own? No,
it's not worth it.
sola...@don'tmesswithtexas.net
>> This I have to agree with. Under no circumstances is it okay to rip
>> off poses that another artist has done, and post them as your own. And
>Now this is where I am getting quite confused here. Say for example
>someone draws a picture of a (for example sake) cat holding a urn. This
>cat holding the urn is standing in such a way that is striking a pose,
>lets say one leg in front of the other, and let's add a expression to
>that feline face. Now, we have a pose of a feline holding a urn done by
>one artist. Are we saying that if another artist decides to use the same
>pose, let's say a bunny holding a urn, with the same expression, and with
>one leg in front of the other, is that Infringement??????????
I would say it depends on just how close the match-up is...
Duplication of poses is almost inevitable, I would think, given that the
human(oid) body only has a certain range of motion available to it, and out
of that range of motion only a certain number of poses are attractive to
look at when drawn...
In your example above - if you have these two pictures, and the only
point of similarity is the stance of the characters, I'm not sure you could
make a case than one was ripped from the other, especially if the two
artists have visibly different styles. If, on the other paw, you have two
pictures where the stance is identical down to the curve of the whiskers,
the characters' clothing (if any) falls into line down to the same folds in
the same places, the background in which the characters are standing is the
same, and the urns are both of the same shape with the same color and
detailing, and the ONLY point of difference between them is the ears and
tail (and that maybe one has been mirrored with respect to the other)...
_then_ you've probably got a pretty good case for one being lifted from the
other.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fool! You have just signed the universe's death warrant!"
"I did? Uh... gee, I don't know if I'm authorized to sign that..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
solarfox@DON'TMESSWITHtexas.net (Gary Akins jr.)
http://lonestar.texas.net/~solarfox
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
XianJaguar
Sometimes art LOOKS like it is being copied....We all use Victoria's secret or
some similar catalog for pin-up poses....and imagine the surprise when I a
piece as entered in the CF10 art show that was the EXACT same pose as one of
mine that I submitted for the Boudoir (one of Tyggar Graf's zines)!
(I usually try to cover up the pose ...but sometimes I do copy pose verbatum
from the photogragh..and add aminal parts....)
XianJaguar
Donald E. Sanders
oce...@hookeddeadhorse.net says...
> In article <MPG.11857dace...@news.fysh.org>, Noo...@my.email.com
> (Donald E. Sanders) wrote:
>
> > Now this is where I am getting quite confused here. Say for example
> > someone draws a picture of a (for example sake) cat holding a urn.
> > Are we saying that if another artist decides to use the same
> > pose, let's say a bunny holding a urn, with the same expression, and with
> > one leg in front of the other, is that Infringement??????????
>
> or similar pose without any conscious viewing of the original, I'd chalk it
> up to coincidence. And, considering the number of 'stock poses' in frequent
> use by furry artists, especially the beginner crowd, coincidences are not
> uncommon. However, if you held the cat picture next to you and drew your
> bunny picture *from* it, using the exact same minute line placement, style,
> etc. save for a slight change in features, I'd call that infringement.
Thanks, that does answer my question clearly.
oCeLoT
(Gaelif) wrote:
> No, we don't all use Victoria's Secret catalog. Some of us took life
> drawing and know the human form well enough to draw from our heads.
And the rest of us use neither a lingerie magazine, nor have taken
life-drawing. ;) The latter is something I plan on doing, though. One can
only pretend to know the locations of so many muscles for so long...
S.J.Laitila
>drawing and know the human form well enough to draw from our heads.
Welcome to the club.
Nick "Singe" Bousman
>
> This is true. I, personally never traced work, but did a lot of freehand
> copying when I started drawing Anthropomorphics. Somewhere in my apt are
> drawings I did of characters such as Pogo, Rocket Raccoon, and Space
> Wolf... but they stay there, in the bottom of a box, not to be shared.
I've traced a ton of work. My own. :)
CaliCougar
>some similar catalog for pin-up poses....
"What you mean *we*, white man?" -Tonto
I never use photos for pose reference. If I'm absolutely stumped over how a
pose is supposed to work, I'll ask a friend to pose, or pose and draw myself in
a mirror.
Usually it's because I have a specific pose already in mind. Going through
stacks of photos to find one that matches what I need would be a pointless
quest. That's why life drawing is so valuable. Once you learn how the body
works, you can make up any pose you want.
Using photos may seem like a quick fix at first, but you're limiting yourself
incredibly by relying on that. And tracing photos is really hitting bottom.
(People can tell! Honest!)
-Carolyna Cougar
http://members.aol.com/calicougar/
XianJaguar
"What you mean *we*, white man?" -Tonto>>
OK, Since EVERYONE has flamed me for this-and some very rudely-, perhaps I
should clarify.
The folks I talk to most, my friends, who were all either too chicken-sh*t to
stick up for me, or just didn't see this post, (including a "big" name or two)
have used Victoria's secret, or SOME OTHER CATALOG sort of SOURCE material in
their lives to do pin-ups at some point! A lot of folks DO NOT draw everything
straight out of their heads, no reference material at all, either animal or
human.
I'm not saying copy verbatium, but to look at to get an idea, or help in a
pose.
And case in point....a very well-known furry artist used a pose directly out of
Victoria's Secret catalog at the CF10 art show. I know this, cause I've usd
that pose before, cause I liked it. Meg was one that pointed it out to me, in
fact.....so it's not like I am imaging this.
And for further clarification, if anyone has ever bothered to look at my art,
they will see that I DON'T use pin-ups poses for EVERYTHING I draw....far from
it. In fact, very few of my poses are found in a photogragh. Most I think up on
my own. But the way everyone talks, it's like they NEVER use ANY source
material EVER.
Well, fine, you guys are perfect, but it's not like some of you have to be so
mean about it.
XianJaguar
Jack Furlong
fighting the severals months-long "artists block" I've been suffering.
If all possible poses have already been drawn
(by artists more competant than me, some will say)
why should I even bother....*feh*
*sighs and wanders off to yet more flamage*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*** Jack Furlong *** http://www.netcom.com/~jfurlong
*** Artist/MUCKer *** Email www.netcom.com/~jfurlong/contact.html
"Dont take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive!" - Bugs Bunny
Graf
XianJaguar <xianj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990425141150...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> The folks I talk to most, my friends, who were all either too
>chicken-sh*t to stick up for me, or just didn't see this post, >including a
"big" name or two) have used Victoria's secret, or >SOME OTHER CATALOG sort
of SOURCE material in
> their lives to do pin-ups at some point!
I'm not chicken-shit, Xian. I've basically given up even trying to make the
point anymore about references. All it does is fall on deaf ears most of
the time. But for you, again I'll try again.
To some, an artist is not an artist if they use photo references, be it a
Playboy, Victoria's Secret, Spiegal, International Male, Penthouse, or
anything else. This also includes photo references of landscapes,
buildings, cars, animals, anything else used for a pose.
I've mentioned before that established artists such as Olivia, Rowena, The
Brothers Hildebrandt, Keith Parkinson, Michael Whelan, Patrick Nagel, Hajime
Sorayama, Alphonse Mucha used photos of a model who posed for them or some
others such as Bev Doolittle have huge files filled with photos of bugs,
animals, trees, landscapes they took. Why all of this? To make sure that
what they do is accurate.
But, that doesn't matter, it seems. There is this disdain for anyone one to
use photo reference of any type. They are not a true artist, they are just
tracing. They're too lazy to take it out of their heads or too lacking in
skill and talent.
> A lot of folks DO NOT draw everything straight out of their >heads, no
reference material at all, either animal or human.
Very true. I didn't really take the plunge myself until I began Guardian
Knights. That forced me to hone that skill.
> I'm not saying copy verbatium, but to look at to get an idea, or >help in
a pose.
There is nothing wrong with that, but for some it's just all the more proof
that the artist who does is lacking in skill and talent and has to depend on
these as a crutch.
At Comic Con International: San Diego, I've seen established comic book
artists use photo references for ideas and help in a pose when they did art
for the charity auction. These pieces are created on the spot, in front of
an audience. I've wandered through the artist's alley, again full of
professional artists, and seen them use photos for references.
I have often said that a Playboy is the poor artist's life drawing class.
Sure, things are airbrushed sometimes (tho not as much from what I've seen
lately), however, it's good to see how muscles move and lay in reclining,
sitting, moving positions. The female form I know, I've a user's manual.
The male I don't, not as well, and I will use International Male to study
the form. Yes, I'm married, but Dean isn't always around to pose for me.
So where do I learn from in the catalog? The underwear section, believe it
or not. Men are as varied in form as women are, and in that section having
all of the bare torsos side by side helps in learning the differences. Same
for Playboy and women builds. Some of us aren't able to take life drawing
classes either due to lack of money or time or both. This is the next best
thing, IMHO. It's where *I* learned the majority of my anatomy and still am
learning. Combine that with a good anatomy book or two and an artist is
set.
> And case in point....a very well-known furry artist used a pose >directly
out of Victoria's Secret catalog at the CF10 art show. I >know this, cause
I've usd that pose before, cause I liked it. Meg >was one that pointed it
out to me, in fact.....so it's not like I am >imaging this.
I never had a chance to see the artshow, so I don't know who you mean here.
But this is why I tend to not use Playboys for my pin up ideas 99% of the
time. The chance of a synchronicity is much higher. That and the models
are a bit on the plastic side, IMHO. I use the more obscure hentai anime
screen grabs for ideas.
> And for further clarification, if anyone has ever bothered to look >at my
art, they will see that I DON'T use pin-ups poses for >EVERYTHING I
draw....far from it. In fact, very few of my poses >are found in a
photogragh. Most I think up on my own. But the >way everyone talks, it's
like they NEVER use ANY source >material EVER.
It doesn't matter to them, Xian. Even if you use references one out of
twenty times, the mere fact that you've HAVE used references is enough to
brand you as an artist who lacks in skill and talent and has to use
references.
When I do an issue of GK, I use references for clothing, to study how
buildings and rooms are constructed, to get an idea of how to do perspective
shots, etc. I've been pricing video cameras so that I can go around San
Diego and tape references such as parks, downtown skyline, surrounding
landmarks, streets, residential and business areas, all to make what I do in
the comic believable. I've asked friends to photo hotel rooms for me. I
drag out my manga and the few comics that I do read to study and make sure
that I'm doing it right, tho comic work is as varied as the artists. I'm
learning this as I go along, and the best "classroom" I have is to study
what others have done. I'll gesture doodle or have Dean pose for me if I
have problems with a figure. Of course I know this doesn't matter, I'm
still seen as this artist who has to use references because she isn't good
enough to take it out of her head.
> Well, fine, you guys are perfect, but it's not like some of you >have to
be so mean about it.
I guess I'm just used to being looked down on all these years. Being
considered beneath them because I use references or because I've not gone to
school and am self taught or for some other reason. *shrugs* No matter
where you go, no matter what you do, there will always be someone somewhere
to whom you are lower than slime on a slug's balls because of one reason or
another. It sucks, but welcome to human nature.
--Tygger L. Graf
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
[...]
>I never use photos for pose reference. If I'm absolutely stumped over how a
>pose is supposed to work, I'll ask a friend to pose, or pose and draw myself in
>a mirror.
? the Platypus guesses that your furries all turn out left handed.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://www.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
TW
artists to render. As far as I'm concerned, I don't need the artist to knock
himself out re-rendering the thing. This ain't FINE ART, here. At least, not
at the prices I'm paying.
If all I want is "hey dude, I wonder how this pose would look as a (fill in
the blank)," I'm not going to insist that the artist complete sixteen roughs
of it. Besides, sometimes I would prefer a drawing that is extremely close
to the reference that I provide.
The caliber of artist I often deal with can make a circle with two dots and
a curve inside it look SEXY. Given that, a tracing off a photo is more than
enough to render some dynamite stuff. I'm more than happy with the results I
tend to get.
Tim Johnson
XianJaguar wrote:
> <<
> "What you mean *we*, white man?" -Tonto>>
>
> OK, Since EVERYONE has flamed me for this-and some very rudely-, perhaps I
> should clarify.
Erf? I swear I didn't do it! :)
>
>
> The folks I talk to most, my friends, who were all either too chicken-sh*t to
> stick up for me, or just didn't see this post, (including a "big" name or two)
> have used Victoria's secret, or SOME OTHER CATALOG sort of SOURCE material in
> their lives to do pin-ups at some point! A lot of folks DO NOT draw everything
> straight out of their heads, no reference material at all, either animal or
> human.
I didn't see the original of this, but I'll comment as much as I can.
Hell, I used Larry Elmore and Cam Kennedy drawings when I got stumped. I didn't
draw direct, but I used them as a source, and mostly just for something to
kickstart an Idea in my brain. I know several artists that use catalogs to get
ideas to draw from, and to smooth out the rough edges of say a hand they couldn't
get just right. Artists learn from artists.. There is no way around that, so it's
natural to use other artists source material as guidance weather they be
photographers, or just inkslingers.
The trick is to learn from it.. I rarely use reference any more (Though that should
be obvious.. It takes me weeks to get anything done ;).. Just go with what helps
you along.. as long as it's not tracing ;)
>
>
> I'm not saying copy verbatium, but to look at to get an idea, or help in a
> pose.
>
> And case in point....a very well-known furry artist used a pose directly out of
> Victoria's Secret catalog at the CF10 art show. I know this, cause I've usd
> that pose before, cause I liked it. Meg was one that pointed it out to me, in
> fact.....so it's not like I am imaging this.
Yep, most anyone in any fandom does it.. Ever notice how you see a lot of the same
poses in anime characters? :)
>
>
> And for further clarification, if anyone has ever bothered to look at my art,
> they will see that I DON'T use pin-ups poses for EVERYTHING I draw....far from
> it. In fact, very few of my poses are found in a photogragh. Most I think up on
> my own. But the way everyone talks, it's like they NEVER use ANY source
> material EVER.
Hey, yer art rules, no need for explanations. Just draw what you like.
I freely admit that I've used reference materials before..
> Well, fine, you guys are perfect, but it's not like some of you have to be so
> mean about it.
Perfect? You obviously haven't seen my 'warped sketchbook' ;)
Keep drawing, keep sane
T.J.
Arved
>
> The female form I know, I've a user's manual.
> The male I don't, not as well, and I will use International Male to study
> the form. Yes, I'm married, but Dean isn't always around to pose for me.
IMHO, there's nothing wrong with using references. E.g.
Robert Crumb uses a lot of them for the backgrounds
and for practice.
Myself, I hardly find references for what my mind sees,
so I've had lots of interesting Yoga hours in front
of the mirror. That's a tedious task since I can't
draw while I'm posing and vice versa. Also, I like to
use references for clothing because I'm not into fashion.
> So where do I learn from in the catalog? The underwear section, believe it
> or not. Men are as varied in form as women are, and in that section having
> all of the bare torsos side by side helps in learning the differences.
I basically gave up underwear references as those bodies
seem quite unreal to me. Most of the time, the gals are
very thin and the guys have a heavier build than what's
average (and I rarely draw pin-ups).
Arved (a fluffy Afghan)
Teflon Cougar
Jack Furlong wrote in message <7fvoie$iai$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>...
>After reading this thread, I really begin to wonder if it's _worth_
>fighting the severals months-long "artists block" I've been suffering.
>
>If all possible poses have already been drawn
>(by artists more competant than me, some will say)
>why should I even bother....*feh*
>
>*sighs and wanders off to yet more flamage*
The first person to discover an illness/disease gets the privalege of naming
it. I hearby name the following.
Brian O'Connell Disprder:
sympoms- In early cases the victim suffers from apathy directed towards the
fandom followed by a "why bother" attitude.
LAter cses cause the prson to ponder leaving the fandom altogether.
The final cases the vivtim curses at us all and eventually disappears from
the threads.
We're here for ya Jack. We'll find the cure before stage three sets in.
You can't let the opinion of others you've never/will never meet in person
direct your activities. I know it's easy to say, but give it a try. Hey, I
was in the army reserves for six years. No one on the NG's has the
vocabulary, creativity, or (due to the nature of the medium) the volume to
offend me.
Ed Smith
the Teflon
Cougar