ALTERNATE "DEALER'S DEN" FOR ADULT STUFF @CF10
Graf
>Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 6:18:27 PM
>From: WitchCat 1
>Subj: Dealers Den # 2
>
> Hoi! Witch Cat here. First off, I just talked to Robert Laneer of the
>Town and Country hotel. He informed me that NO adult material would >be
allowed to be sold or displayed on the hotel premises. He had not >been
informed by Con Staff about the adult portion of the con, and said >that his
hands were tied due to the Liquor License that they held. So, for >adult
products, the Town and Country is out.
Okay, I HIGHLY suggest that a representative of CF officially say something
here. Hey, Vinson...y'reading this?
If what WitchCat says is true, that means that even if things are masked and
the precautions taken, it still cannot be sold at all. Things are getting
confused here...
--Tygger L. Graf, considering to not bother having any of her erotica at the
con...
Brian McP.
Hello There
I ask this, what about dealers who wish to sell both general audience and adult
art? If we have to use anothe rhotel's ballroom will we have to fight for a
dealer's table again, what happens to us who already reserved one? Will we get one
for the other place also? Will the hoyrs be later then the regular delear's room?
(which would be a good idea) Personally I wouldn't want to see this split in
dealer's rooms, either have it in one place or the other.
See ya,
--
****************************
Brian McPherson (BEM) =:)
silly furry artist
and furry/anime/fantasy/Sci-Fi/football fan
****************************
sola...@texas.net
Sylverfox's newsreader is being cranky at the moment... Please direct all
replies, questions, arguments, etc. to Witc...@aol.com, NOT to me!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 6:18:27 PM
From: WitchCat 1
Subj: Dealers Den # 2
Hoi! Witch Cat here. First off, I just talked to Robert Laneer of the
Town and Country hotel. He informed me that NO adult material would be
allowed to be sold or displayed on the hotel premises. He had not been
informed by Con Staff about the adult portion of the con, and said that his
hands were tied due to the Liquor License that they held. So, for adult
products, the Town and Country is out.
However, I have been on the phone with a hotel next to the Town and
Country, and reserved us a real nice room that will be able to hold the
adult material for the Dealers Den.
Here are the specs:
*where? The Mission Valley Inn
*when? the same as the rest of the con
*phone number? (619)298-8282 (ask for Tina)
here are more specs:
*ADULT MATERIAL! Ok, I was straightforward with Tina, and told her that we
will have adult material being sold. She said that so long as we did NOT
try to sell it outside of the Banquet Hall/Dealers Den 2, it would be ok.
So, for Dealers, please do not sell on this hotel's property unless it is
in the Den. For Fans, please do not go running around and flash your new
adult purchases about all over the place in public : )
*the new den is 1300 sq. feet
*the new den will hold 26 six-foot tables (with 2 chairs per table)
*the access time for set up will be after 6pm on Thursday night (actually,
6-10 pm). The fellow to contact will be the banquet captain Marcio; just go
up to the front desk and ask for him
*the Mission Valley Inn is a five minute walk from the Town and Country,
and we are working on getting a shuttle to ferry us back and forth. There
will be maps available at the Town and Country to help us find our way
between the hotels if needed
*Now, about those sellers permits. Since they are good for the Town and
Country and not the Mission Valley Inn, I shall be going down tomorrow to
the BOE to talk to them about possibly changing the permits. This is a long
shot, so what I will do for a safe backup is get a new permit that shall
cover the whole room under my permit. This will technically mean that
everyone who operates in the new den shall all be working for me, but this
is the only way at the last minute that I can see us having legal tax
protection. If anyone has anything else they would like to add, let me
know.
Now, the cost per dealer will be $60 per table for the whole three days. If
we can get everyone to chip in, we shall easily run the whole weekend. Now,
I have used the last of my own money to reserve this room for at least one
day, so on Friday if on no other day we shall be in operation for the adult
material portion of the con. But I know that with all your help we shall be
in operation the whole weekend.
Let me thank Shanslox for helping me find the new location. His knowledge
of the Hotel Circle area was of the uttermost import. I vote a special hug
to him : )
Please contact me immediately if you wish to reserve space in advance.
Otherwise, I shall be waiting at the hotel : )
See you at the con!
Witchcat
Jake McDermott
On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:26:31 -0800, "Graf" <gr...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>>Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 6:18:27 PM
>>From: WitchCat 1
>>Subj: Dealers Den # 2
>>
>> Hoi! Witch Cat here. First off, I just talked to Robert Laneer of the
>>Town and Country hotel. He informed me that NO adult material would >be
>allowed to be sold or displayed on the hotel premises. He had not >been
>informed by Con Staff about the adult portion of the con, and said >that his
>hands were tied due to the Liquor License that they held. So, for >adult
>products, the Town and Country is out.
>
Michael Pena
My congratulations on your quick thinking!
Reserve me one table as I will bring all the works that I cannot
display at the Town and Country over to the Mission Valley Inn. I was
not planning on selling my portfolio Soft Styles but since I am now
getting a table anyway, I might as well. I will also be happy to do
sketches for people and take commissions.
Sir you have my $60 worth of support and my greatest respect. Talk to
me at the con and I can help you out more financially if need be.
As far as the sellers permit I was planning on going over to BOE on
Thurday April 1st to get one myself.
You are one Baad cat! See at the Con :)
Sincerely,
Michael Angel Peña(AKA Sparrow...A Rabbit that is feeling really good
right now!)
Artist-Laughing Rabbit Graphics
http://lonestar.texas.net/~sparrow/sparrow.htm
Oh! and a big bunny hug for Shanslox...Hug!
sola...@texas.net wrote:
>(I was asked to forward this to the various Furry newsgroups, since
>Sylverfox's newsreader is being cranky at the moment... Please direct all
>replies, questions, arguments, etc. to Witc...@aol.com, NOT to me!)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 6:18:27 PM
>From: WitchCat 1
>Subj: Dealers Den # 2
>
> Hoi! Witch Cat here. First off, I just talked to Robert Laneer of the
>Town and Country hotel. He informed me that NO adult material would be
>allowed to be sold or displayed on the hotel premises. He had not been
>informed by Con Staff about the adult portion of the con, and said that his
>hands were tied due to the Liquor License that they held. So, for adult
>products, the Town and Country is out.
>
anthr...@mailcity.com
> Anyfurry else here think that if it was that easy to secure an alternative
> dealer's den that if CF had been *overly* explicit with the hotel in the furst
> place about the reality of its art content that the hotel would've been as
> accomodating and that the sneaky letter-writer wouldn't have been able to stir
> anything up in the first place?
>
> Just a thought.
Well, think about it. Despite the fact that furry fandom is a good 80-90%
erotica, furries are so caught up in their delusion that it's all OK, that
they won't admit to themselves that it's "explicit" much less admit it to
someone else. Try to remember that if 90% of the population thinks it's
unnaceptable, they're all wrong, because it's furry.
Brian
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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RedFox Whiteruff
Farthing W. Fox
>
> Well, think about it. Despite the fact that furry fandom is a good 80-90%
This is a very sweeping, over-generalised, and possibly inflammatory
statement.
There's certainly still a lot of dealers out there, as well as material such
as comic books, fanzines, etc that have little to no erotica content. Taking
the comic book marketplace for example, the non-erotica stuff far outweighs
the erotica-content books.
At conventions, and having been staff on a Dealers' Room, I can certainly
say that the number of dealers present that were selling erotica related
merchandise nowhere near got to the figure you quote.
Also, at art shows - I don't think I've ever seen an art show where the
NC-17/R rated section is 4 times as large as the rest. It tends to be the
other way around.
However, the market is skewed because of this. You have proportionally
less of one type of product than another, which in turn creates more
demand because it is limited, and in doing so, more money. Just because
as much as 80% of your sales is generated from that material doesn't
necessarily mean that 80% of the whole fandom is interested in that.
--
F W Fox
f...@vulpes.net
Graf
Farthing W. Fox wrote in message ...
>This is a very sweeping, over-generalised, and possibly inflammatory
>statement.
>
>There's certainly still a lot of dealers out there, as well as material
such
>as comic books, fanzines, etc that have little to no erotica content.
>Taking the comic book marketplace for example, the non-erotica stuff far
>outweighs the erotica-content books.
True it's a sweeping statement, however, look at the artists who say that
erotica accounts for a goodly percentage of their sales, even those who do
both nonerotica. Yes there are many out there who do the nonerotica, but
speaking as one who has sold both in the past as folios and zines, the
erotica always outsold.
>At conventions, and having been staff on a Dealers' Room, I can >certainly
say that the number of dealers present that were selling erotica >related
merchandise nowhere near got to the figure you quote.
Most seem to have both on the table, actually. Unless you knew that one
would have only nonerotica such as Mel.White, Conrad Wong, Genesis, and a
few others out there.
>Also, at art shows - I don't think I've ever seen an art show where the
>NC-17/R rated section is 4 times as large as the rest. It tends to be the
>other way around.
Heck, I remember back when the CF artshow had a small three panel section
for the NC art, now it's off to a room of its own. I think it'd depends on
the con as to how much is actually erotica of some type or another. At
Conifur, I'd say 25% or so of the artshow was pin ups or higher, but this is
based upon what I saw, the actual numbers may be different.
>However, the market is skewed because of this. You have proportionally
>less of one type of product than another, which in turn creates more
>demand because it is limited, and in doing so, more money. Just >because as
much as 80% of your sales is generated from that material >doesn't
necessarily mean that 80% of the whole fandom is interested in >that.
Ah, we get into this again: sure, 80-90% of the fandom may not be into
erotica, HOWEVER, when it comes down to the demand and supply its always
been for more erotica. You'd think there'd be more of a demand for
nonerotica with as rare as it appears to be. Erotica, quite frankly, is not
as limited or rare, it's just the most appealing and hits the lowest common
demoninator faster. It's hard to hit the mark with nonerotica, and I've
done my share of trying to find it. Some do, others don't, and many times
I'd wager that an artist will go to doing erotica simply because it's proven
to be the best way to gain some feedback. Hell, even going to Yerf isn't a
guarantee of feedback, even going to the fur.artwork groups, or even
nonerotica zines.
Again, from what I know and what has been seen here on a.f.f., artists are
willing to do the nonerotica. The problem comes from the LACK of support
many of us find for it. How many times has it been said? Support the
nonerotica, even if it comes from an artist who is middle of the road such
as Daphne Lage and myself. Quite personally I don't think nonerotica from a
middle of the road artist is any different than one from a strictly
nonerotica only artist. Then again, from some of the sentiment I've been
hearing expressed over the last months it seems that art from an artist who
does both is tainted. Feh, it's not like it's got cooties or anything, but
unfortunately that sentiment appears to be there and it's little wonder that
most middle artists tend to do more of what generates sales for them. You
really cannot blame them, blame the demand. For all the cry and hue over
"More nonerotica!" not much is supported. It's not fair, no, but what can
you do when the market is so skewed despite what some artists try to do.
I've had sales plummet in the past due to switching over to a more
nonerotica stock. So have other artists I've talked to. I've had them
plummet more when I stopped doing the spooge and risque/blatant erotica and
went to a more flirty format. I think that says volumes. Unfortunatley, it
seems as tho not many are listening.
--Tygger L. Graf, really opinionated about this subject and apologizes if
she ruffled any feathers or fur...
Robert Alley
"Farthing W. Fox" wrote:
>
> anthr...@mailcity.com wrote:
> >
> > Well, think about it. Despite the fact that furry fandom is a good 80-90%
> > erotica ...
>
> This is a very sweeping, over-generalised, and possibly inflammatory
> statement.
>
> There's certainly still a lot of dealers out there, as well as material such
> as comic books, fanzines, etc that have little to no erotica content. Taking
> the comic book marketplace for example, the non-erotica stuff far outweighs
> the erotica-content books.
>
> At conventions, and having been staff on a Dealers' Room, I can certainly
> say that the number of dealers present that were selling erotica related
> merchandise nowhere near got to the figure you quote.
>
> Also, at art shows - I don't think I've ever seen an art show where the
> NC-17/R rated section is 4 times as large as the rest. It tends to be the
> other way around.
>
> However, the market is skewed because of this. You have proportionally
> less of one type of product than another, which in turn creates more
> demand because it is limited, and in doing so, more money. Just because
> as much as 80% of your sales is generated from that material doesn't
> necessarily mean that 80% of the whole fandom is interested in that.
>
> --
> F W Fox
> f...@vulpes.net
Well, you also have to remember that the adult stuff tends to be a bit
out of sight anyway; you're less apt to find it unless you know where to
look, & it's not just in the "XXX" section of the art show, or whatever.
The dealer who has nothing but good clean stuff on his table may have
an unmarked binder out of sight that you have to specifically ask for.
Also, the experience of artists suggests that perhaps 2/3 of their sales
are adult material. True, not quite the "80-90%" you consider
exaggerated, but close. Also, artists tend to tailor their output to
what sells, particularly those who depend on the income; they're not
likely to "restrict" their output here. Sex simply sells.
Skytech
>
> --Tygger L. Graf, really opinionated about this subject and apologizes if
> she ruffled any feathers or fur...
>
Actually I say you bring up a good point. Why is sex so big in furry and
furry art? Because we allow it. It's tolerated. I'm more in the opinion
that furry isn't about sex, it's about intelligent, tolerant people
(mostly).
We live in a world that hates sex and too often looks to crush it in any
form. That seems to explain why we get more than our share of the
refugees. If the general population wasn't controlled by such a prudish
lot, there wouldn't be an emphasis on sex in furridom. Forbidden fruit
and all...
I'm kinda proud of furry's generous outlook. It's positive to me.
--
Testing: La gvatanta vulpo (The vigilant fox)
Skytech
^^
<@@>
./
Crassus Destanion
>furry art?
Because I like it.
>Because we allow it.
Because I draw it.
>It's tolerated.
It's fun.
>I'm more in the opinion
>that furry isn't about sex, it's about intelligent, tolerant people
>(mostly).
What's sex have to do about not being intellegent? I'm tolerant of things.
I'd like to consider myself intellegent. Sex is natural. Drawing sex has
been part of art since the dawn of man. (See the movie Iceman ;) It's an
expression of one of human kind's most primal urges.. I don't see anything
wrong in it.
>We live in a world that hates sex and too often looks to crush it in any
>form. That seems to explain why we get more than our share of the
>refugees. If the general population wasn't controlled by such a prudish
>lot, there wouldn't be an emphasis on sex in furridom. Forbidden fruit
>and all...
>I'm kinda proud of furry's generous outlook. It's positive to me.
You're right.. comes from our heritage and religious background, but
obviously things have changed for the better in the past 200 years, I'd like
to think, and once they get to the point where governemt officials can
actually say the word "sex" without blushing, things will improve even more
and they'll stop making stupid laws like liquor licenses ;)
--Crassus
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> Heck, I remember back when the CF artshow had a small three panel
> section for the NC art, now it's off to a room of its own. I think
> it'd depends on the con as to how much is actually erotica of some type
> or another. At Conifur, I'd say 25% or so of the artshow was pin ups
> or higher, but this is based upon what I saw, the actual numbers may
> be different.
ACTUALLY, only 11 panels out of 68 were in the Adult section, or about a
sixth.
And believe it or not, some people STILL complained. But they didn't complain
to me. They complained around me. I can't respect that at all.
This year it's gonna be three zones, since we ended up with that anyway (I
generally put the people who had Adult panels in the same room as the adult
section.) Artists can now elect to have panels in a guaranteed G section if
they so desire, as well as a more generalized (Museum standards) and Adult (as
defined last year) section.
Any anyone who complains about THIS arrangement will get bitch-slapped. This
is the absolute limit I am willing to go to in order to accomodate the
squeamish who can't stand to see a nipple, like the one they hopefully ran
soap and washcloth over that very morning on their own chests. There will be
no post-it censorship on art, ruining the art show experience for the majority
of fans just to please a minority.
It is, as far as I'm concerned, an art exhibit, as well as a sale.
--
The greatest tragedy is that the same species that achieved space flight,
a cure for polio, and the transistor, is also featured nightly on COPS.
-- Richard Chandler
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.
Michael Pena
I agree with you 100 percent!
Sincerely,
Michael Angel Peña(AKA Sparrow...A Rabbit)
Artist-Laughing Rabbit Graphics
http://lonestar.texas.net/~sparrow/sparrow.htm
RebelSqurl
I thought it might be helpful to provide, in one place, a summation of the
facts that have been presented here on AFF as to what's going on. To the very
best of my knowledge, the facts are these:
1) A person or persons unknown recently e-mailed the Town & Country management
about the fact that ConFURence 10 would be displaying anthropomorphic art of an
adult nature, along with strong hints that such would be accompanied by art
pertaining to bestiality and/or pedophilia.
2) Upon reading this email, the Town & Country, after reviewing its liquor
license -- which apparently applies to the *entireity* of the hotel, not just
its restaurant and bar area -- has told CF10 staff that the restrictions of the
license are such that adult-themed art cannot be allowed to be displayed or
sold on the hotel's premises.
3) XianJaguar has posted official new rules for the CF10 Art Show, which limit
entries to the G-PG13 ratings. See the original message "The Official Art
Announcement" for full details.
4) Witch Cat has arranged for the adult material to be sold in the Banquet
Hall of the nearby Mission Valley Inn, about five minutes' walk from the T&C.
This room will be the *ONLY* place at the Mission Valley Inn where adult-themed
material may be sold and displayed. Witch Cat is also currently working on
getting the sales permits squared away for the new location. I have it on good
authority that full details will probably be available within the next 12 to 24
hours, and certainly by the first day of the convention.
5) The rules that both hotels are using essentially demand that buyers and
sellers exercise the greatest of discretion regarding their adult-themed
material. Con-goers and dealers alike must *NOT* display, view, exhibit, or
publicize such material in any public location at either the Town & Country or
the Mission Valley Inn (with the exception of the MVI Banquet Hall). Use of
opaque binders, bags, folders, or other containers to shield such material from
public view at all times should be considered a necessity, not an option.
6) No decision has apparently been made as yet as to how the new rules will
affect the Cabaret Fur le Dance.
7) No decision has apparently been made as yet as to how the new rules will
affect the art auctions.
Now, the next two following items are SPECULATIVE, rather than factual....
8) The use of the word "display" regarding the restrictions on adult-themed
material at both hotels leads me to strongly suspect that individuals may, in
the privacy of their hotel rooms, get together to examine each other's
adult-themed purchases, portfolios, sketchbooks, etc. The emphasis here,
however, should be on both privacy and quiet viewing. I suggest that you don't
put up flyers in the hallways to advertise an out-and-out "Degenerate Art
Party" (for example), and don't try to sell any of the adult stuff in your
rooms (see #2 and #4 above). Your best bet may be to arrange regular times for
"room parties" over the duration of the convention, and generic "room party"
flyers advertising would be fine.
9) It *MAY* be possible, in lieu of actually buying and selling adult-themed
material at the CF locations, to use the convention to arrange for later
transactions on a "promissory" basis. In other words, a customer agrees in
writing to buy, via mail-order, items from a dealer who can't sell his wares at
the convention due to the new restrictions. No money is exchanged at this
time, but instead, the transaction is deferred until *after* the convention --
basically, the customer simply signs up to reserve his art/comics/whatever for
later purchase. Dealers who expected to do plenty of adult-themed business at
CF may wish to consider this alternative. However, I do not know for certain
if such customer-dealer promises would constitute a "sale" for the purpose of
violating the sales permits or not. Can anyone with better legal knowledge
about this point comment?
That's about it, as far as I can make heads or tails of this convoluted issue.
I hope it helps in making your last-second CF plans!
-- Jeff "REB" Pierce, trying to be helpful...
Darrel L. Exline
> After going through many a post on the subject of the adult art snafu at CF10,
> I thought it might be helpful to provide, in one place, a summation of the
> facts that have been presented here on AFF as to what's going on. To the very
> best of my knowledge, the facts are these:
First, let me point out, in case anybody else missed it, that your post is NOT
in any way even remotely an announcment coming from CF...
That out of the way, I'm glad you posted it... It clarifies at least what is
being perceived so that I can comment on each item individually.
> 1) A person or persons unknown recently e-mailed the Town & Country management
> about the fact that ConFURence 10 would be displaying anthropomorphic art of an
> adult nature, along with strong hints that such would be accompanied by art
> pertaining to bestiality and/or pedophilia.
Not an EMail, it was a message posted from the T&C's feedback web page.
The focus was not that we were displaying anthro art of an adult nature, it was
a vile, inflammatory threat to the hotel that CF was just a front for fans of
beastiality and for pedophiles to sell their pornography. It then directed them
to a few sites on Funation to illustrate the type of art involved. The message
then went on to tell the hotel that he was going to contact the local church
groups and news media to let them know what the T&C was allowing.
> 2) Upon reading this email, the Town & Country, after reviewing its liquor
> license -- which apparently applies to the *entireity* of the hotel, not just
> its restaurant and bar area -- has told CF10 staff that the restrictions of the
> license are such that adult-themed art cannot be allowed to be displayed or
> sold on the hotel's premises.
It should be noted that this was the ONLY concern the hotel has. They have
nothing at all against furry, nor did they take this asshole's threat in any way
seriously. They did, however confirm that the type of art located at the
provided Funration URL's was in fact the type of art we were planning to have
available, and that's when they got concerned about their liquor license, which
apparently has some extra restrictions on it *possibly* (I'm only assuming here)
from previous violations of another nature.
> 3) XianJaguar has posted official new rules for the CF10 Art Show, which limit
> entries to the G-PG13 ratings. See the original message "The Official Art
> Announcement" for full details.
That's correct. And since XianJaguar is only in charge of the Art Show, she was
not able at that time to say exactly how the Dealer's Room is going to be
handled.
> 4) Witch Cat has arranged for the adult material to be sold in the Banquet
> Hall of the nearby Mission Valley Inn, about five minutes' walk from the T&C.
> This room will be the *ONLY* place at the Mission Valley Inn where adult-themed
> material may be sold and displayed. Witch Cat is also currently working on
> getting the sales permits squared away for the new location. I have it on good
> authority that full details will probably be available within the next 12 to 24
> hours, and certainly by the first day of the convention.
Please note that WitchCat did this completely outside of CF, and on his own
initiative. Although it showed an admirable ammount of initiative, and he was
obviously good-intentioned, he may have stepped on some toes by doing it on his
own.
The impression some people are getting of "Why didn't CF do this" is one
example. Consider that CF ws conentrating on *all* the issues of the upcoing
convention, and that the current Co-Chairpersons do not live in this area, and
so it was not as easy for them to initiate this as it was for WitchCat... This
is why he got there first. Had he offered to CF to do this, then gone out in
coordination, then it would have been a much cleaner situation.
Also, it seems that because WitchCat was working outside the loop and on his own
without CF's direction, he may have (apparently) stirred up a bit of a mess...
It's not as bad as first thought, but it does seem now that the Alcoholic
Beverage Commission is fully aware of when and where we will be holding our
convention. Whether this makes for any additional problems is yet to be seen...
but there's no reason to suspect that anything worse will happen than what has
already transpired, since CF will be fully compliant with the restrictions on
the T&C's liquor license.
> 5) The rules that both hotels are using essentially demand that buyers and
> sellers exercise the greatest of discretion regarding their adult-themed
> material. Con-goers and dealers alike must *NOT* display, view, exhibit, or
> publicize such material in any public location at either the Town & Country or
> the Mission Valley Inn (with the exception of the MVI Banquet Hall). Use of
> opaque binders, bags, folders, or other containers to shield such material from
> public view at all times should be considered a necessity, not an option.
The specific restriction on the T&C's liquor license is that no pornographic
material (real or depicted) is to be publicly displayed or made availalbe for
sale on the premises. The definition of "displayed" was defined to us by the
T&C (and we have to go by their interpretation) as any material that is viewable
in any way. The definition of available for sale is that if it is in the art
show at all, or if it is on a dealer's table at all.
> 6) No decision has apparently been made as yet as to how the new rules will
> affect the Cabaret Fur le Dance.
Clothing will *not* be optional on stage. 'nuff said. We will be rolling back
to Cabaret rules to be the same as they were for CF4. Same type and style of
dancing, but with less skin.
> 7) No decision has apparently been made as yet as to how the new rules will
> affect the art auctions.
There will be no NC-17 art show, no R-rated material, and therefore no NC-17 or
R-rated art in the auction. What's to explain?
> Now, the next two following items are SPECULATIVE, rather than factual....
>
> 8) The use of the word "display" regarding the restrictions on adult-themed
> material at both hotels leads me to strongly suspect that individuals may, in
> the privacy of their hotel rooms, get together to examine each other's
> adult-themed purchases, portfolios, sketchbooks, etc. The emphasis here,
> however, should be on both privacy and quiet viewing. I suggest that you don't
> put up flyers in the hallways to advertise an out-and-out "Degenerate Art
> Party" (for example), and don't try to sell any of the adult stuff in your
> rooms (see #2 and #4 above). Your best bet may be to arrange regular times for
> "room parties" over the duration of the convention, and generic "room party"
> flyers advertising would be fine.
The best interpretation I've heard so far is that if a book whose cover is not
R-rated (or above) is in a plastic bag, taped closed, and kept behind or under
the table, it is not on public display. If that same book is on the table, then
it is assumed to be for sale, and that is not allowed. If a customers want to
see the book, then they must come around the table and view it "privately" so
that no one else can see it.
Artwork can be "privately" displayed in a person's own hotel room by invitation
only. Unfortunately, setting up an open door makes that room "public" space.
It is recommended that you state wherever you are set up during the day that you
have "more art available for private showing" at a specified time, and assume
that (Nudge-nudge, Wink-Wink) everone who is interested will know what you
mean. You cannot state ahead of time that it is "for sale" because that
violates the second part of the "on display or made available for sale"
stipulation, but what happens after you are in your private hotel room is not
any of CF or the Hotel's business... Get it?
> 9) It *MAY* be possible, in lieu of actually buying and selling adult-themed
> material at the CF locations, to use the convention to arrange for later
> transactions on a "promissory" basis. In other words, a customer agrees in
> writing to buy, via mail-order, items from a dealer who can't sell his wares at
> the convention due to the new restrictions. No money is exchanged at this
> time, but instead, the transaction is deferred until *after* the convention --
> basically, the customer simply signs up to reserve his art/comics/whatever for
> later purchase. Dealers who expected to do plenty of adult-themed business at
> CF may wish to consider this alternative. However, I do not know for certain
> if such customer-dealer promises would constitute a "sale" for the purpose of
> violating the sales permits or not. Can anyone with better legal knowledge
> about this point comment?
I don't know if I can touch on that one... It seems like an unlikely scenario
to me.
I find it unlikely that going to a con will advance mail orders significantly,
unless that dealer or artist is already set up for mail order and goes to the
convention to display examples... If the examples can't be displayed, then it
stands to reason that the convention visit would not increase mail-orders
significantly to be financially viable. I doubt that this scenario will arise.
> That's about it, as far as I can make heads or tails of this convoluted issue.
> I hope it helps in making your last-second CF plans!
>
> -- Jeff "REB" Pierce, trying to be helpful...
And thank you again for putting this collection together in an organized
matter... For lack of an organized FAQ yet on this subject, this is a pretty
good collection of info.
--
Darrel L. Exline, darrelx(a)home.com, http://www.polarden.org
a.k.a. Jym_Chago, "Your friendly neighborhood Polar Bear"
--> Co-Chair for ConFurence 11 <--
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
writes:
> The specific restriction on the T&C's liquor license is that
> no pornographic material (real or depicted) is to be publicly displayed
> or made availalbe for sale on the premises. The definition of
> "displayed" was defined to us by the T&C (and we have to go by
> their interpretation) as any material that is viewable in any way.
> The definition of available for sale is that if it is in the art show
> at all, or if it is on a dealer's table at all.
>
> is not R-rated (or above) is in a plastic bag, taped closed, and
> kept behind or under the table, it is not on public display. If
> that same book is on the table, then it is assumed to be for sale,
> and that is not allowed. If a customers want to see the book, then
> they must come around the table and view it "privately" so that no
> one else can see it.
Whoah! This is a LITTLE different than what I was told before. Does this
mean that even if I bag and seal copies of Gallery, which contains some adult
material, I can't put it on my table AT ALL?
Does this also mean that if someone puts pasties on art samples in binders and
puts the samples inside plastic, that's STILL a no-no?
That's fucked. I'm going to have an empty tabletop except for sign-up forms
for the CFNW art show.
Graf
Darrel L. Exline wrote in message <3701D47C...@home.com>...
>The specific restriction on the T&C's liquor license is that no
>pornographic material (real or depicted) is to be publicly displayed or
>made availalbe for sale on the premises. The definition of "displayed"
>was defined to us by the T&C (and we have to go by their interpretation)
>as any material that is viewable in any way. The definition of available
>for sale is that if it is in the art show at all, or if it is on a dealer's
table at >all.
Aha, what I've been searching these posts for.
So...if I understand this correctly, even if the art is masked in a seperate
binder it CANNOT be ON the table. It MUST be UNDER the table which means it
is not for sale. A customer MUST go behind the table to view the binder
"privately". If a transaction is made, it is BEHIND the table.
Is this correct, Darrel?
Question: may the artist have a small sign on the table stating they have a
binder of erotica for viewing and to just ask for it if the customer wishes
to view it? Has this been okayed by the hotel? It seems to me that this
could get an artist and the con into trouble because it indicates sexual
materials for sale, even tho the binder is not on the table which indicates
its availability.
Now, another question: what is the T&C's definition of pornography?
Playboy? Penthouse? Hustler? Is it possible to get that out of them?
This may be the difference for many artists. Some of us do only soft
erotica defined as pin ups seen in Playboy or as has been done by Patrick
Nagel and Alberto Varga. Some of us do higher level such as what is in
Penthouse. Some of us are into the, and I mean no offense by this, Hustler
range. Then there is the type which shows no parts moving, but you know
what the couple is doing, or a nude which is done in the classical sense.
Bleh, sorry to seem to be nitpicking, but these are questions I've not seen
answered and/or would like clarification on.
>The best interpretation I've heard so far is that if a book whose cover is
>not R-rated (or above) is in a plastic bag, taped closed, and kept behind
>or under the table, it is not on public display. If that same book is on
>the table, then it is assumed to be for sale, and that is not allowed. If
a >customers want to see the book, then they must come around the table >and
view it "privately" so that no one else can see it.
Oh...so if these books are seen from the table by the customer, such as in a
rack, and they ask to see it, they can go behind the table to view it. What
of selling it? Wouldn't that break the rules set down? *kinda confused
look* It's not on display, no, however there is money exchanging hands.
Bleh, I can just see this for folks like Richard Chandler who have zines
with R and above art. Yarf! as well for they also have some pin ups in
their issues. Man, this sucks...and is confusing.
Sorry ifn I add to the confusion...
--Tygger L. Graf
Glen Wooten
>
> Now, another question: what is the T&C's definition of pornography?
> Playboy? Penthouse? Hustler? Is it possible to get that out of them?
> This may be the difference for many artists. Some of us do only soft
> erotica defined as pin ups seen in Playboy or as has been done by Patrick
> Nagel and Alberto Varga. Some of us do higher level such as what is in
> Penthouse. Some of us are into the, and I mean no offense by this, Hustler
> range. Then there is the type which shows no parts moving, but you know
> what the couple is doing, or a nude which is done in the classical sense.
Use the straight definitions - if the artwork has R content or above
(nipples, gentialia, sex acts or the extremely vague "pain & violence" -
it is in violation. Assume that if you can see it up front, it's a
no-go. You can be suggestive - but if you can't see it on prime-time (on
the regular networks...), it's a no-go. If you can be erotic yet cover
all the naughty bits, you should be safe.
--
Glen Wooten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| primary: jag...@netcom.com | secondary: glen....@fanciful.org |
_______________________________________________________________________
| Terrie's web page: http://members.aol.com/amperprodx/littlepaw.html |
_______________________________________________________________________
Graf
Glen Wooten wrote in message ...
>Use the straight definitions - if the artwork has R content or above
>(nipples, gentialia, sex acts or the extremely vague "pain & violence" -
>it is in violation. Assume that if you can see it up front, it's a
>no-go. You can be suggestive - but if you can't see it on prime-time (on
>the regular networks...), it's a no-go. If you can be erotic yet cover
>all the naughty bits, you should be safe.
Ah...so as XianJaguar said: think what is Yerf acceptable. I've spotted a
few "naked" anthros, basically their coats covering the boobyfruit and the
rest.
Ooookay...this is what I thot but wanted to be absolutely sure. Thanks
much.
--Tygger L. Graf, feeling a little less confused about all this...
M. Mitchell Marmel
> That's fucked. I'm going to have an empty tabletop except for sign-up forms
> for the CFNW art show.
Hmmm...Perhaps just cover displays on the table? You may have to do the room
party route.
That IS fucked.
-MMM-
XianJaguar
mean that even if I bag and seal copies of Gallery, which contains some adult
material, I can't put it on my table AT ALL?
Does this also mean that if someone puts pasties on art samples in binders and
puts the samples inside plastic, that's STILL a no-no?
That's fucked. I'm going to have an empty tabletop except for sign-up forms
for the CFNW art show.>>
Well, I may not be in charge of the dealers den, but I have this hypothetical
question:
If the Cover is CLEAN and G-rated, and the zine is mostly G art anyays (I've
seen Gallery) and bagged so it cannot be casually opened....who will know the
contents contain NC-17? I think there is such a thing as going overboard here
with the rules, and forgetting the original law of "No R or NC-17 DISPLAYED."
And Darrell....I had talked to Mark about what options artists may have in the
dealers room BEFORE I posted my notice. It's not like I went willy-nilly and
posted stuff I had not discussed with Head of Con already.
XianJaguar
Gary Renaud
Maybe you can save the NC-17 Art Show that way.
OTOP, I kind of LIKE the idea of walking around the DoD with a mixed drink in paw.
--
"The Tenth Commandment sends a message to socialists, to egalitarians, to people obsessed with fairness ... to everyone who believes that wealth should be redistributed. And the message is clear and concise: Go to hell." -- P. J. O'Rourke
Gary Renaud Senior Software Engineer Litronic, Inc
Direct Line: 949-622-3602
Front Desk: 949-851-1085
FAX: 949-851-8588
Hangdog
> Artwork can be "privately" displayed in a person's own hotel room by invitation
> only. Unfortunately, setting up an open door makes that room "public" space.
> It is recommended that you state wherever you are set up during the day that you
> have "more art available for private showing" at a specified time, and assume
> that (Nudge-nudge, Wink-Wink) everone who is interested will know what you
> mean. You cannot state ahead of time that it is "for sale" because that
> violates the second part of the "on display or made available for sale"
> stipulation, but what happens after you are in your private hotel room is not
> any of CF or the Hotel's business... Get it?
How about written invitations? Little slips of paper stating "This is an invitation
to (fill in the blank) to come and view a private showing of art in Room (thus and
such) at (time, date). Signed (whatzisname), Dealer. NO ADMISSION
WITHOUT INVITATION"
You could print four of these to the letter-sized sheet: xerox them, and cut them
in fourths. Dealers could have them at their tables, pre-signed. If a person was
interested, they'd just fill in the names of the interested party & hand them the
slip. It'd also be a good reminder to them of where & when the viewing was
to be held.
Just an idea.
--Hangdog
RebelSqurl
>First, let me point out, in case anybody else missed it, that your post is NOT
>in any way even remotely an announcment coming from CF...
Oops!!! Yes, I should have made that disclaimer at the very beginning. Sorry,
Darrel.... :/
>That out of the way, I'm glad you posted it... It clarifies at least what is
>being perceived so that I can comment on each item individually.
>
>And thank you again for putting this collection together in an organized
>matter... For lack of an organized FAQ yet on this subject, this is a pretty
>good collection of info.
Thank you, and I *very* much appreciate the comments and clarifications you
provided. They make things a lot less murky than before. Good luck with CF10,
and better luck hosting CF11 next year. I'm sure you'll make a great Co-Chair!
:)
-- Jeff "REB" Pierce
ista...@airmail.net
>few "naked" anthros, basically their coats covering the boobyfruit and the
Boobyfruit. Heh heh heh. Boobyfruit. Boobyfruit!
Istanbul
- Boobyfruit!
Graf
ista...@airmail.net wrote in message <37038229...@news.fysh.org>...
>
>>few "naked" anthros, basically their coats covering the boobyfruit and the
>
>Boobyfruit. Heh heh heh. Boobyfruit. Boobyfruit!
*acks as she nearly spit takes her root beer on the screen*
I should know not to drink and read atta same time by now...o_o
Aheh, the term was found in a pamphlet on erotica in fantasy and science
fiction art and comics available at Comic Con last year. It's such a rather
silly term but one that's rather amusing. And I always have the Doublemint
jingle in my head whenever I use the term. *snerks* o/~Double your
pleasure, Double your fun...o/~
*makes herself laff all over again*
--Tygger L. Graf
Charles Groark
Hangdog wrote:
> How about written invitations? Little slips of paper stating "This is an invitation
> to (fill in the blank) to come and view a private showing of art in Room (thus and
> such) at (time, date). Signed (whatzisname), Dealer. NO ADMISSION
> WITHOUT INVITATION"
>
> You could print four of these to the letter-sized sheet: xerox them, and cut them
> in fourths. Dealers could have them at their tables, pre-signed. If a person was
> interested, they'd just fill in the names of the interested party & hand them the
> slip. It'd also be a good reminder to them of where & when the viewing was
> to be held.
>
> Just an idea.
Not a flame, Hangdog, but it probably wouldn't work. It's asking a bit much of the
dealers to spend all day in the Dealer's Room, *then* spend hours more in their rooms
(unofficially) doing the same thing...
Charlie
Wanderer
>
(Witchcat's forwarded post snipped)
>
>Anyfurry else here think that if it was that easy to secure an alternative
>dealer's den that if CF had been *overly* explicit with the hotel in the
furst
>place about the reality of its art content that the hotel would've been as
>accomodating and that the sneaky letter-writer wouldn't have been able to
stir
>anything up in the first place?
>
>Just a thought.
>
Not a very accurate thought, I'm afraid. As pointed out by a few staffers,
the fact that it was "adult" art actually wasn't the problem. The only
problem arose with the possibility that some of it would shade over into the
subheading of "pornography", thus breaking a requirement of the hotel's
resort-class liquor license. (Please note, those who missed it the furrest
time, that "resort-class" effectively means you can order alcohol from Room
Furvice, while "bar-class" limits the selling area to one specific location
... most hotels stop at "bar-class".)
Thus, even a full, ahead-of-schedule disclosure wouldn't have mattered ...
rules are rules.
(Says the wolfurry whose gas station just lost their permit to sell lottery
tickets ... )
Yours with no travel plans,
The not-going-anyway-cause-he-can't-afford-it,
Wanderer**wand...@ticnet.com
Where am I going?I don't quite know.
What does it matter where people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I*don't know!