Furry Spring Break and its Megaplex successor
Dr. Samuel Conway
wrote:
>The whole thing stinks of "coincindences" and enough intrigue to make the
>Illuminati blush.
I see. I must admit that is quite a story, and quite different from
the one I heard from the folks who put together Pawpet Megaplex. I
was not aware that Cutter was a faultless victim who stood purehearted
and brave against this band of ruffians who were only interested in
destroying him, and who conspired so heinously to thwart his selfless
efforts.
I think that it is my duty to attend this Pawpet Megaplex. I must go
there for myself and confront these dastardly hoodlums who would stoop
so low as to attempt to organize an event to benefit those who found
themselves with nonrefundable tickets to a convention that would not
be...an event whose chairman had somehow innocently managed to
alienate his entire staff despite his wisdom, benevolence,
cheerfulness and loving personality, to the point that they would
abandon him so cruelly. I shall gather these thugs at table and I
shall tell them exactly what I think of them and of their vicious
desires to entertain and to make others happy.
DAMN those Orlando Pawpeteers! DAMN them and their charitable works!
DAMN their warmhearted natures and outgoing personalities that have
made them so well-loved, those outrageously evil hooligans!
It is my earnest hope that all of you will join me in this crusade.
Justice must prevail! Let us choke them with our numbers, overrun
their programs and shake the very walls of their hotel with the sounds
of our joyful laughter!
See you there.
-- Uncle Kage
Bruce
"Dr. Samuel Conway" <flog...@you-know-the-drill.bellatlantic.net> wrote
in message news:moq34u8d3l3bke8nj...@4ax.com...
This entire post strikes me as being way out-of-line.
> It is my earnest hope that all of you will join me in this crusade.
Umm, now doubtful, though I was originally considering going. Orlando
is only two hours away, after all; and I was at FSB for the entire three
days last year.
Well, so much for the maturity I thought the good doctor had a habit of
exhibiting time after time...
-Bruce
Tehrasha Darkon
>
> This entire post strikes me as being way out-of-line.
[snip]
> Well, so much for the maturity I thought the good doctor had a habit of
> exhibiting time after time...
>
>
> -Bruce
>
Bruce, try re-reading what Kage wrote, but this time, make sure your
sarcasm filter is not active. I think you missed a bit...
--Teh
--
My mailbox is NOT an advertisement medium. Tehrasha Darkon
My address is NOT for sale, lease or rent. dar...@netins.net
Send me spam, lose your account. Get it? TINLC-1372
Super Jay
Bingo!
You're a sell-out. The only reason you're going is because they give you a
stage to perform on as you give them a stage to perform on. One cat
scratches the back of another.
Or is it you're going there to get drunk with Sake again? Your image is
seriously slipping if you keep up with this childish behavior, going and
getting drunk at cons, and stooping down to petty sarcasm to reply to a
well-worded letter by Cutter. I used to have respect for you, but that is
dwindling after a few series of events which I won't go into here.
But this isn't your fault, all this going on is quite a normal process.
There's been a cycle in "power" in the furry fandom (and not funny animal
fandom). The rise and falls of cultures and power have happened throughout
history and I see the same thing happening in the fandom.
5-6 years ago the CA furs were a big thing, you remember that? CF8 and 9
were HUGE and many events on mailing lists and such centered around them.
But then they got too big, like critical mass in a nuclear reactor and
basically blew up. They still exist and are still a large group, but they
don't seem to hold the same sway in cons and events anymore, recent CF
attendance hasn't been jumping very high. When one power falls, another
must rise. Which is where FL furs came in. The furs there who do wonderful
charity work and had a nice show are now reaching that critical mass point
and will soon blow up. Megaplex will determine is they'll survive or split
apart.
Cutter is NOT completely at fault here, everyone is... stop taking sides and
realize hat everyone is to blame.
If only Cutter delegated more tasks and incorporated,
If only Karl posted Cutter's message sooner,
If only the board members like Yappy would have shown up at meetings and
stopped trying to get Cutter out of the picture with trickery instead of
simply asking him to leave.
Trying to "cleans" the furrydom of the word furry won't help the situation,
I wish Megaplex luck but if they fail, you can't blame Cutter since he has
nothing to do with planning that con.
-SuperJay
I am a Furry, hear me growl! *GRRROOOWWWWLLL*
Bruce
>
> Bruce, try re-reading what Kage wrote, but this time, make sure your
> sarcasm filter is not active. I think you missed a bit...
>
> --Teh
>
No. You are the one missing the point.
Dr. Conway is supporting (supposedly) the Pawpet Megaplex crew. But he
chose sarcasm as the method to make his speech. Most anyone will
inform you that sarcasm is one of the weakest forms of communication.
Dr. Conway was at FSB last year, same as I was. It would be better for
him to toss in his opinion/comments from a distance without choosing
sides - just as I have done. If he wants to convince folks wavering on
their decision then I am a perfect candidate from that set of folk.
And he screwed it up (my opinion) by attempting to expand what should
properly remain a local, Orlando, squabble. I am quickly becoming
disenchanted with the entire mess.
I believe the original post remains way out-of-line. Allow me to
attempt a more civilised rendition...
"My dear fellow fans.
It is always unfortunate when a convention has to be cancelled; I myself
certainly enjoyed my time in Orlando last year during Furry Spring Break
2001. However, take heart, for another convention has appeared to
replace FSB - PawPet Megaplex. I recommend you support this new
convention, as I have chosen to, and join me in Orlando during my story
hour at PawPet Megaplex 2002."
Add icing and elaboration as you will; just don't come out with a
diatribe against a past con-chair in sarcasm! How 'bad show' can you
get?
Bruce
(I don't do con politics)
Allen Kitchen
Bruce wrote:
> No. You are the one missing the point.
Frankly, with all the bitching and moaning coming from Orlando,
I'm not going to either one on a dare.
I'm sure that there is more to this story than we see, or care to see.
But here's how it looks to me.
a) Cutter was unable to devote the time and energy needed as conchair,
and didn't want to endanger his personal finances to make FSB take off.
Understandable, but if a conchair cannot meet his duties then he is
honorbound to turn over the reins of power.
b) The staff either grew weary of supporting the con, or decided to jump
ship. No biggy either way; so long as you are up front with it and don't
just wander away and not say anything to anybody. From this vantage, it
seems the caring staff simply walked away without so much as a goodbye.
So there's more than enough blame to go around. If you want to play the
blame game, that is.
Frankly the whole lot of you will be better off trying to make things work
instead of complaining about who hurt who's feelings. FSB apparently
couldn't get off the ground because of BOTH the conchair AND the vanishing
staff. Get over it, and get on with things. Life is much too short
to worry about carp like this.
And Cutter; the only way to learn one's limits, is to exceed them. You
now know where your limits are, which is more than 99% of the population
can say as they've never tried to exceed their grasp.
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Kyle L. Webb
"Super Jay" <supe...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:a1tf9s$ai2$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
>
> You're a sell-out. The only reason you're going is because they give you
a
> stage to perform on as you give them a stage to perform on. One cat
> scratches the back of another.
> Or is it you're going there to get drunk with Sake again? Your image is
> seriously slipping if you keep up with this childish behavior, going and
> getting drunk at cons, and stooping down to petty sarcasm to reply to a
> well-worded letter by Cutter.
Gee. I've gotten drunk at a con before, though sake isn't really my drink. I
think it was more likely Creature's bottle of Jack Daniels.
And I frequently use petty sarcasm. Man, I must be going downhill fast...
See! There I used some sarcasm. And it was even pretty petty
(IMNSHO: You may well have some points to make, but the crack about drinking
is kinda beyond the normal lines and obscures anything else you say, Super
Jay. If you're going to complain about someone posting when they're angry,
you might cool down a bit yourself. It looks a bit pot kettle black. :)
Kyle L. Webb
Hartree Fox on yiffnet
(If I sell out, can I get off of salary so I'll get overtime?)
Super Jay
I
>think it was more likely Creature's bottle of Jack Daniels.
>And I frequently use petty sarcasm. Man, I must be going downhill fast...
>See! There I used some sarcasm. And it was even pretty petty
Kage has a much more professional image to keep then you since he is a con
chair and many people tend to look up to him. But in case you didn't see
pictures or read con reports of FSB 2001, then you don't know what kind of
drunk I'm talking about, I'm talking about plastered drunk where someone
does thigns publically that greatly regret later, embarassing things. Again
he was unprofessional in his response to resorting to talking like some 13
year old know-it-all basing his entire posting on sarcasm and not presenting
any supporting facts for Megaplex's benefit.
You are doing the same as him, using sarcasm, you can if you wish, I don't
knwo you or care about you. It just further illustrates my point that those
supporting the FL furs are resorting to weak arguments as they have no clue
how to support Megaplex.
>(IMNSHO: You may well have some points to make, but the crack about
drinking
>is kinda beyond the normal lines and obscures anything else you say, Super
>Jay. If you're going to complain about someone posting when they're angry,
>you might cool down a bit yourself. It looks a bit pot kettle black. :)
No, I'm not angry right now, I am more disappointed then anything with the
way Kage and the FL furs are dealing with this.
-SuperJay
*You are the weakest debator, good-bye!*
Kyle L. Webb
Yeah, I heard about it. So what? We've all gotten silly before, and probably
will again.
> I don't knwo you or care about you.
Having people you don't know, or don't recall, respond to you is one of the
facts of usenet. They may know others in the conversation.
> It just further illustrates my point that those supporting the FL furs are
resorting to weak arguments as they have no clue
> how to support Megaplex.
Funny. In light of my response to Cutter, I didn't know I was supporting
them.
Lacing your response with ad hominum hardly rates as persuasive. I tried to
use humor to say that without completely alienating you.
I could have said "Super Jay, you came off sounding like a real jerk in that
post.", and all it would have done is make you angry. I may have done that
anyway, but probably not as much as the direct approach would have.
I have friends on both sides of this and like you, I'm betting neither side
is either wholly blameless, or wholly at fault. I'm not sure it even really
matters in the end.
These things happen. We live with it.
Shadowspawn
wrote:
>It is my earnest hope that all of you will join me in this crusade.
>Justice must prevail! Let us choke them with our numbers, overrun
>their programs and shake the very walls of their hotel with the sounds
>of our joyful laughter!
I'm so with you Doc :)
Anyone who likes to get together as furry fans, anyone who knows how
to have fun and share a laugh, head down to Florida. If you dont like
the con, there is always Disney and the other theme parks, beaches
etc.
Those of you who want to play your petty politics, you don't have to
come. You can stay home and spit your venom all over your monitor
and only wish you were in Florida having fun.
Let there be sake and karaoke!!!!
Shadowspawn
>>I think that it is my duty to attend this Pawpet Megaplex
>
>
>
>Bingo!
>
>You're a sell-out. The only reason you're going is because they give you a
>stage to perform on as you give them a stage to perform on. One cat
>scratches the back of another.
Looks to me like it is YOU who have sold out. And YOUR stage is
alt.fan.furry.
>Or is it you're going there to get drunk with Sake again?
I suppose your chosen beverage is coolaid? Last time I checked, the
good doctor appeared to be old enough to drink. I will also add that
I was present at FSB last year. Kage did nothing wrong.
>Your image is
>seriously slipping if you keep up with this childish behavior, going and
>getting drunk at cons, and stooping down to petty sarcasm to reply to a
>well-worded letter by Cutter.
How exactly does getting drunk do anything to image? And your
behavior here, namely this childish mudslinging is doinf nothing for
your image. AND, well worded half-truths and bullshit is just that.
Cutter accepts no blame whatsoever for the failure of the con. He was
the con chair. It was therefor his job to make sure the i's were
dotted and the t's crossed. He failed to keep the group together and
now all he can do is point fingers.
>I used to have respect for you, but that is
>dwindling after a few series of events which I won't go into here.
Oh please. What else did he do? Dip his cookie in someone elses
milk? Colour outside the lines?
>But this isn't your fault, all this going on is quite a normal process.
>There's been a cycle in "power" in the furry fandom (and not funny animal
>fandom). The rise and falls of cultures and power have happened throughout
>history and I see the same thing happening in the fandom.
>5-6 years ago the CA furs were a big thing, you remember that? CF8 and 9
>were HUGE and many events on mailing lists and such centered around them.
>But then they got too big, like critical mass in a nuclear reactor and
>basically blew up. They still exist and are still a large group, but they
>don't seem to hold the same sway in cons and events anymore, recent CF
>attendance hasn't been jumping very high. When one power falls, another
>must rise. Which is where FL furs came in. The furs there who do wonderful
>charity work and had a nice show are now reaching that critical mass point
>and will soon blow up. Megaplex will determine is they'll survive or split
>apart.
If you are trying to make a point here, I fail to see it.
>Cutter is NOT completely at fault here, everyone is... stop taking sides and
>realize hat everyone is to blame.
Ah, Kage can't take sides, but you can. What makes you so special?
>If only Cutter delegated more tasks and incorporated,
As was requested by members of the con staff.
>If only Karl posted Cutter's message sooner,
What exactly would that have accomplished? The con was off. Cutter
should have taken the initiative himself and informed the entire con
staff.
>If only the board members like Yappy would have shown up at meetings and
>stopped trying to get Cutter out of the picture with trickery instead of
>simply asking him to leave.
Care to provide a scrap of evidence to support your accusations?
>Trying to "cleans" the furrydom of the word furry won't help the situation,
>I wish Megaplex luck but if they fail, you can't blame Cutter since he has
>nothing to do with planning that con.
Ah, so now we get down to the truth behind your vitriole. You're
pissed off that they want to run a clean con.
Shadowspawn
>>Gee. I've gotten drunk at a con before, though sake isn't really my drink.
>I
>>think it was more likely Creature's bottle of Jack Daniels.
>>And I frequently use petty sarcasm. Man, I must be going downhill fast...
>>See! There I used some sarcasm. And it was even pretty petty
>
>
>Kage has a much more professional image to keep then you since he is a con
>chair and many people tend to look up to him. But in case you didn't see
>pictures or read con reports of FSB 2001, then you don't know what kind of
>drunk I'm talking about, I'm talking about plastered drunk where someone
>does thigns publically that greatly regret later, embarassing things.
I think you have an overactive imagination as well as a real talent
for exageration. As anyone who was there can confirm, Kage
entertained us for hours that night and left under his own power.
>Again he was unprofessional in his response to resorting to talking like some 13
>year old know-it-all basing his entire posting on sarcasm and not presenting
>any supporting facts for Megaplex's benefit.
In your humble and completely unbiased opinion.
>You are doing the same as him, using sarcasm, you can if you wish, I don't
>knwo you or care about you. It just further illustrates my point that those
>supporting the FL furs are resorting to weak arguments as they have no clue
>how to support Megaplex.
And you are using petty character assasination and ad hominum. I
prefer sarcasm myself.
>>(IMNSHO: You may well have some points to make, but the crack about
>drinking
>>is kinda beyond the normal lines and obscures anything else you say, Super
>>Jay. If you're going to complain about someone posting when they're angry,
>>you might cool down a bit yourself. It looks a bit pot kettle black. :)
>No, I'm not angry right now, I am more disappointed then anything with the
>way Kage and the FL furs are dealing with this.
I think YOU need to deal with it. If you dont like the way they are
doing things then stay home. If you think you can do better, start
your own con. Then we can all sit back and judge you and make cracks
about you.
>-SuperJay
>*You are the weakest debator, good-bye!*
You are the weakest link. Good riddence.
Shadowspawn
>This entire post strikes me as being way out-of-line.
Why? Because Kage has decided to support the new con rather than
Cutter?
>> It is my earnest hope that all of you will join me in this crusade.
>
>
>Umm, now doubtful, though I was originally considering going. Orlando
>is only two hours away, after all; and I was at FSB for the entire three
>days last year.
You and Super Jay should get together. I bet you would have a swell
time. Maybe Cutter could join you too and you could have a mini-con.
>Well, so much for the maturity I thought the good doctor had a habit of
>exhibiting time after time...
>
>
>-Bruce
Care to point out to the rest of us where the good doctor was
immature?
Shadowspawn
>Dr. Conway is supporting (supposedly) the Pawpet Megaplex crew. But he
>chose sarcasm as the method to make his speech. Most anyone will
>inform you that sarcasm is one of the weakest forms of communication.
Did you, or did you not understand his meaning? If you did, then he
comunicated just fine. If you didn't, read it again.
>Dr. Conway was at FSB last year, same as I was. It would be better for
>him to toss in his opinion/comments from a distance without choosing
>sides - just as I have done.
Whatever. You make your side well known along with your political
views. If you had no agenda, you wouldn't be adding your vinegar to
the wounds.
Toraneko
Orlando furs lemme tell ya y'all are reading WAAAAAY too much into
stuff. There isn't some big secret plot or anything. Megaplex was
organized to offer something to do when FSB was cancelled and yes,
there were some indications that it wasn't going to happen. Pretty
glaring when 3 months before the supposed date nothing was scheduled
and a hotel not even secured. That was a suprise since the supposedly
signed contract was shown to everyone at FSB last year along with a
speech from Cutter on how wonderful it was for a first year con to
make a profit. It is pointless to sit around pointing fingers . For
whatever reason FSB didn't happen.
now quite a few people had already scheduled time off of work, booked
non refundable airline tickets and planned on visiting Orlando in
March. I'm sorry it is percieved so poorly that some really GOOD
people decided to lend a hand and offer something. Sure, it is a
little different from the usual fare but why is it so bad to not close
ranks and say that the event is for one group or another? I thought
one perk of being associate with furry is that we were supposed to be
a little tolerent an open minded to others. THat is what is expected
when dealing with you right? Accept me for my furriness ( whatever
that means to each person) but I'll close my mind to anythign new?
THat's hardly fair.
Remember who these people in charge of Megaplex are for a minute. Are
they selfish and selfserving?
No. THey are the people who walk the walk when they talk the talk
about using their powers for good.
It's really hard to understand when people get bashed for trying to
do something nice.
THe flame against Kage is totally uncalled for. Kage did not get drunk
in public. He was at a private room party so it is really not any of
anyone's business what went on in there.
I wasn't there. wish I had been. I heard it was hysterical. So he over
indulged a little, have you never done anything you wish you hadn't?
THe problem with pointing a finger at someone else is that leaves
three fingers pointing back at yourself.
I know the only thing I want to know about FSB is where the money is
going to go, and there is money from last year. I say we find a nice
charity and donate it. I don't care which one, tiger Haven, C.A.R.E
here in Fla, the 9-11 fund. THat money does need to go somewhere
though and I don't care if it is only 20 bucks.
Dr. Samuel Conway
wrote:
>"Super Jay" <supe...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>Or is it you're going there to get drunk with Sake again?
>
>I suppose your chosen beverage is coolaid? Last time I checked, the
>good doctor appeared to be old enough to drink. I will also add that
>I was present at FSB last year. Kage did nothing wrong.
>How exactly does getting drunk do anything to image?
Actually, Super Jay does make something of a good point. I had far
more to drink at FSB's dead dog party last year than was prudent.
I am pleased to say, though, that the incident was a serious wakeup
call to me. I decided afterward that it was time to stop drinking, or
at least seriously curtail it. I still enjoy wine (including sake, of
course), but I have a hard limit of three (usual-sized) glasses in any
one evening; if I am driving at all later, I allow myself no more than
two. I no longer touch hard liquor of any kind, nor beer.
I found that it really does not diminish the fun of an evening if I
avoid drinking, and it makes it much easier to remember all the fun I
had when I wake up.
-- Uncle Kage
ferret
> >Trying to "cleans" the furrydom of the word furry won't help the situation,
> >I wish Megaplex luck but if they fail, you can't blame Cutter since he has
> >nothing to do with planning that con.
>
> Ah, so now we get down to the truth behind your vitriole. You're
> pissed off that they want to run a clean con.
That's only assuming you buy into the 'furry=sex' philosophy that at least some
of the PMP (should that be pronounced 'pimp'?) seem to have. I think they could
just as easily run a clean furry con as a clean 'funny animal' con. You're
obviously their head appologist and fanatic based on your posts so I don't
expect any reasoned responces from you either.
Rainbow 'Roo
<supe...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>I think that it is my duty to attend this Pawpet Megaplex
>
>
>
>Bingo!
>
>You're a sell-out. The only reason you're going is because they give you a
>stage to perform on as you give them a stage to perform on. One cat
>scratches the back of another.
>Or is it you're going there to get drunk with Sake again? Your image is
>seriously slipping if you keep up with this childish behavior, going and
>getting drunk at cons, and stooping down to petty sarcasm to reply to a
>well-worded letter by Cutter. I used to have respect for you, but that is
>dwindling after a few series of events which I won't go into here.
*sniip*
>
>
>-SuperJay
>I am a Furry, hear me growl! *GRRROOOWWWWLLL*
>
>
Well - speaking from a neutral point of view - at least as far as I
can tell..I'll offer up what I'm seeing here - and probably what a lot
of other furs are seeing too.
Obviously there is..or was..a lot of tension and stress between the
staff of FSB. I'm sorry for all parties that things did not go well.
A group with a lot of sway or what have you (not that that's a bad
thing necessarily) down in Florida decided to go their own route with
their own convention, though I'm not sure if this was because of FSB's
cancelling, or if it was planned beforehand..but honestly? I don't
think that matters too much. People are entitled to start a
convention if they wish in my eyes..
However..Seeing the note Kage wrote in this thread really *did* shock
me. I'm not taking sides.. I'm one of the types in my mind that could
take a convention with the word 'furry' in it - or one with the word
taken out. As long as people have a good time..and there's
conventions that cater to both 'mindsets' - then all's well as far as
I can tell.
But seeing Kage get pulled into this..it really....really hurts me. I
was able to meet Kage recently..he was busy at the time - but heck..it
was at the convention he chairs, so I can understand. What little
time I did get to talk with him - he was very sweet and very nice to
me..I won't ever forget that.
SuperJay does have a point - many people *do* look up to Kage..myself
included..for various reasons..a lot of them having to do with
well..Kage is just generally handed down from fur to fur as someone
who's really nice - a wonderful con chair..and is really good to so
many furs. I have also been told - and understand that he *will*
stand up for wht's right - he *will* deal with threats that would be a
harm to his convention..or to the furs/fans/folx there at the time.
I haven't lost respect for Kage..he does so much and devotes a lot of
his time to so many others. I just hope.. I really do pray that he
doesn't get swept much deeper into this mess. If I could make a
suggestion - it would be to just to stay subtle..or if replying..hold
that professional sort of attitude I've seen so much of him. He's his
own person though and I wont even begin to tell him how he has to
behave..he may just be standing up for what he believes in to a
major degree. I'm just not used to seeing him handle things this
way..but I still believe he's a very very good person - and that the
fandom is quite lucky to have him.
Just this little 'roo's thoughts..
-Rainbow 'Roo
ICQ the 'roo: 93127116
Remove the rooness in my email to email me.
Furry Code:
FMaK3acm A C++ D+++ H++ M++ P+++ R- T+++ W Z Sf+ RLLW a22 cd++ d++ e+ f++++ h* iw++ j p+ sm-
Rainbow 'Roo
wrote:
*Whurf!* That's right along the lines of how I'm seeing the whole
thing Allen..well..as best as a 'roo can. Heehee. At any rate.. I
really hope I don't get flamed for my response - or you for
yours..there seems to be a few people around here that don't mind
flaming (from both sides, mind you) ...Just hope the new convention
works - and sorry that the one prior to it didnt.
-Rainbow 'roo
M. Mitchell Marmel
> Actually, Super Jay does make something of a good point. I had far
> more to drink at FSB's dead dog party last year than was prudent.
>
> I am pleased to say, though, that the incident was a serious wakeup
> call to me. I decided afterward that it was time to stop drinking, or
> at least seriously curtail it. I still enjoy wine (including sake, of
> course), but I have a hard limit of three (usual-sized) glasses in any
> one evening; if I am driving at all later, I allow myself no more than
> two. I no longer touch hard liquor of any kind, nor beer.
>
> I found that it really does not diminish the fun of an evening if I
> avoid drinking, and it makes it much easier to remember all the fun I
> had when I wake up.
And this, ladies, gents, and undecideds, is why Kage earns respect. Bravo!
-MMM-
--
============================================================================
M. Mitchell Marmel \ Scattered, smothered, covered, chunked,
Drexel University Dept. of Mat. Eng. \ whipped, beaten, chained and pierced.
Fibrous Materials Research Center \ *THE BEST HASHBROWNS IN THE WORLD!*
http://fmrc.coe.drexel.edu \ marm...@drexel.edu
============================================================================
TaliVisions: http://www.pages.drexel.edu/grad/marmelmm/Talivisions/index.html
ICQ # 58305217
Shadowspawn
>Shadowspawn wrote:
>
>> >Trying to "cleans" the furrydom of the word furry won't help the situation,
>> >I wish Megaplex luck but if they fail, you can't blame Cutter since he has
>> >nothing to do with planning that con.
>>
>> Ah, so now we get down to the truth behind your vitriole. You're
>> pissed off that they want to run a clean con.
>
>That's only assuming you buy into the 'furry=sex' philosophy that at least some
>of the PMP (should that be pronounced 'pimp'?) seem to have. I think they could
>just as easily run a clean furry con as a clean 'funny animal' con.
You're on the wrong side of the equation. Furry = funny animal comics
to me. It is all the paraphiles and news reporters that think furry =
sex. I don't care what they choose to call their con or how they
choose to sell it. It is their choice, like it is the fans choice as
to whether they want to go or not.
>You're obviously their head appologist and fanatic based on your posts so I don't
>expect any reasoned responces from you either.
Dead wrong. If you want reasoned replies, post reasoned questions. I
am neither an appologist nor a fanatic. I am an individual with the
same right to opinion as you have. My opinion is based on knowing the
facts from both sides of the argument. What are yours based on?
Dr. Samuel Conway
wrote:
>But seeing Kage get pulled into this..it really....really hurts me. I
>was able to meet Kage recently..he was busy at the time - but heck..it
>was at the convention he chairs, so I can understand. What little
>time I did get to talk with him - he was very sweet and very nice to
>me..I won't ever forget that.
Perhaps you have a point, too. I always tell others not to post when
they are angry. I suppose I ought to follow my own advice now and
again.
But I stand by my words regardless. I spoke them because someone hit
a very sore nerve in me. Any good con chair knows full well that a
convention is only as good as its staff. These are volunteers who put
in an incredible amount of time and energy for very little reward.
Everyone is crowing about how wonderful FSB was last year, and I
heartily agree, but it was not that way because of the chairman. It
was that way because of the small army of volunteers who worked
themselves to exhaustion for him. They did this without pay and
sometimes with only minimal thanks.
Then I saw the chairman who, I am sorry to say, failed in his job to
keep the organization together, trying to paint himself as an agonized
martyr and pointing an accusing finger at the very people who busted
their asses to make the organization work as well as it did. At that,
I lost my temper, and I apologize if my angry words caused anyone
consternation. If things were that bad between the chairman and his
crew, the only proper course of action would have been for that
chairman to step down, and he refused to do so. He did not want
anyone to take "his con" away from him, as he himself said if you will
remember.
A lot of people said that Anthrocon was a great convention. I will
say now, and will never say otherwise, that I had very little to do
with that. Anthrocon works because I have some of the best people in
the world working on my staff. I could fall in a hole tomorrow and
never been seen again, and Anthrocon this year would be just as good
as it would have been, or maybe even better.
FSB also had some of the best people in the world working for it, and
for their chairman to pillory them for his failings, and then to start
a campaign to poison the well of their efforts to salvage the
organization, is simply incomprehensible to me.
I will say only this in closing: If, Heaven forbid, Anthrocon should
ever fail, I as chairman will bear the sole responsibility. I will
never, *ever* concoct some half-assed story of Machiavellian intrigue
and hateful conspiracies; I will never point my finger at the people
who have worked so hard when I can not even do so much as pay for
their meals to show my gratitude, and I will never stand idly by while
anyone else does so.
-- Uncle Kage
Bruce
"Shadowspawn" <dou...@cgocable.net> wrote in message
news:t4t44uscm58f3g8g6...@4ax.com...
>
> Care to point out to the rest of us where the good doctor was
> immature?
I did. I rewrote his post as an exercise.
-Bruce
Bruce
"Dr. Samuel Conway"
<flog...@you-know-the-drill.bellatlantic.net>
wrote in message
news:qg074u4aqgrsg487o...@4ax.com...
>
> Perhaps you have a point, too. I always tell others not to post when
> they are angry. I suppose I ought to follow my own advice now and
> again.
>
> But I stand by my words regardless. I spoke them because someone hit
> a very sore nerve in me. Any good con chair knows full well that a
> convention is only as good as its staff. These are volunteers who put
> in an incredible amount of time and energy for very little reward.
> Everyone is crowing about how wonderful FSB was last year, and I
> heartily agree, but it was not that way because of the chairman. It
> was that way because of the small army of volunteers who worked
> themselves to exhaustion for him. They did this without pay and
> sometimes with only minimal thanks.
>
> Then I saw the chairman who, I am sorry to say, failed in his job to
> keep the organization together, trying to paint himself as an agonized
> martyr and pointing an accusing finger at the very people who busted
> their asses to make the organization work as well as it did. At that,
> I lost my temper, and I apologize if my angry words caused anyone
> consternation. If things were that bad between the chairman and his
> crew, the only proper course of action would have been for that
> chairman to step down, and he refused to do so. He did not want
> anyone to take "his con" away from him, as he himself said if you will
> remember.
>
<etc.>
>
> -- Uncle Kage
This is all very well, and likely true, but you aren't helping out the
situation for attendence by tossing kerosene about. That's my point.
Anyone can see there is a difference of opinion going on down in
Orlando. Folks not directly involved in the situation should be more
circumspect in choosing sides. I know I am not about to assign blame
to a situation where I have no intention of investigating who-said-what-
when.
Bruce
Bruce
"Dr. Samuel Conway"
<flog...@you-know-the-drill.bellatlantic.net>
wrote in message
news:qg074u4aqgrsg487o...@4ax.com...
>
> Perhaps you have a point, too. I always tell others not to post when
> they are angry. I suppose I ought to follow my own advice now and
> again.
>
> But I stand by my words regardless. I spoke them because someone hit
> a very sore nerve in me. Any good con chair knows full well that a
> convention is only as good as its staff. These are volunteers who put
> in an incredible amount of time and energy for very little reward.
> Everyone is crowing about how wonderful FSB was last year, and I
> heartily agree, but it was not that way because of the chairman. It
> was that way because of the small army of volunteers who worked
> themselves to exhaustion for him. They did this without pay and
> sometimes with only minimal thanks.
>
> Then I saw the chairman who, I am sorry to say, failed in his job to
> keep the organization together, trying to paint himself as an agonized
> martyr and pointing an accusing finger at the very people who busted
> their asses to make the organization work as well as it did. At that,
> I lost my temper, and I apologize if my angry words caused anyone
> consternation. If things were that bad between the chairman and his
> crew, the only proper course of action would have been for that
> chairman to step down, and he refused to do so. He did not want
> anyone to take "his con" away from him, as he himself said if you will
> remember.
>
<etc.>
Bruce
"Toraneko" <Tora...@yahoo.com>
wrote in message
news:679acb1b.0201...@posting.google.com...
>
> Wow! This is really becoming a tempest in a teapot.
> It is pointless to sit around pointing fingers . For
> whatever reason FSB didn't happen.
>
Yup. Well said. I know I am not going to blame someone I don't know,
regarding a situation I am miles away from.
-Bruce
Greylocks
You chose us because we can argue sensibly, not because we are 'yes-men'.
Dr. Samuel Conway wrote:
>
> Perhaps you have a point, too. I always tell others not to post when
> they are angry. I suppose I ought to follow my own advice now and
> again.
Yes, you should. I'm the same as far as tempers go so I know when you
are about to explode. We both have that short fuse.
>
> But I stand by my words regardless. I spoke them because someone hit
> a very sore nerve in me. Any good con chair knows full well that a
> convention is only as good as its staff. These are volunteers who put
> in an incredible amount of time and energy for very little reward.
> Everyone is crowing about how wonderful FSB was last year, and I
> heartily agree, but it was not that way because of the chairman. It
> was that way because of the small army of volunteers who worked
> themselves to exhaustion for him. They did this without pay and
> sometimes with only minimal thanks.
Right here so far. You chose us for a few reasons; we have a clue, and
we are not afraid to bring forth ideas and occasional criticism. We work
like nuts because you actually LISTEN to the ideas we suggest, you are
not a god, and that is good. But the moment you discount your staff, you
will be alone very fast. That is true of any enterprise, except maybe
for governments.
>
> A lot of people said that Anthrocon was a great convention. I will
> say now, and will never say otherwise, that I had very little to do
> with that. Anthrocon works because I have some of the best people in
> the world working on my staff. I could fall in a hole tomorrow and
> never been seen again, and Anthrocon this year would be just as good
> as it would have been, or maybe even better.
This is where you are wrong, because as good as the crew is, you need a
leader type who will work just as hard. You do. I remember finding you
barely asleep on chairs, because you felt you had to guard a room all
night...
Besides, who would tell the Stories?
> I will say only this in closing: If, Heaven forbid, Anthrocon should
> ever fail, I as chairman will bear the sole responsibility. I will
> never, *ever* concoct some half-assed story of Machiavellian intrigue
> and hateful conspiracies; I will never point my finger at the people
> who have worked so hard when I can not even do so much as pay for
> their meals to show my gratitude, and I will never stand idly by while
> anyone else does so.
If it fails it will be due to a total turnaround in the fandom, lack of
interest, or generic clusterf*ck of enormous proportions.
Anthrocon has survived several changes of staff, locations, hotels,
overbooking, dismal elevators, medical emergencies, and a select few
infamous twits. All I fear is that we will run out of hotels in 2002.
Maybe we should rent Philadelphia?
>
> -- Uncle Kage
>
In a nutshell, we work for free because we like the fandom, and we also like you.
You are part of this, willing or not. Cope with it :)
Jack Furlong - hillbluffer at yahoo dot com
>"Dr. Samuel Conway" wrote:
>
>> I found that it really does not diminish the fun of an evening if I
>> avoid drinking, and it makes it much easier to remember all the fun I
>> had when I wake up.
>
>And this, ladies, gents, and undecideds, is why Kage earns respect. Bravo!
For sure :)
Harry Calahan said it best: "A man's got to know his limitations."
Rainbow 'Roo
*Whurfles and nods*
Very understandable Kage - I'm sure you know a whole lot more about
what went on then I do. Heck - I wasn't even able to attend it. Fsb,
I mean. I was there at AnthroCon. I had a feeling you were upset
over something..quite sore, or bothered..or whatever the words may be.
I think you have every right to be so upset. Not too long ago I tried
gophering for a con that seemed to give little recognizition in
response..which really really upset me - and that's just a gopher..not
the staff.
I dont fault you for what you did at FSB - or here, or anywhere else.
We are who we are, yeah? *chuffles* But you seem to be a really grand
individual Kage, one who of course doesn't overlook his staff of
helpers - and forgive my flattery..but I've always noticed you had a
diplomatic tongue of sorts when it came to dealing with crisis
situations. I never ment - and I never will imply how exactly you
should handle certain situations. Heck..I've had stuff upset me quite
a bit and it was a struggle not to let my emotions overtake me in my
responses....but..You always tend to think clearly and logically..and
I think that's something that is really....really rare, in a fandom so
full of emotion - be it through pain, vendetta, sadness, or what have
you. You tend to manage yourself well - and I agree..stand up for
what you believe in. I'm just a little 'roo with a little voice - but
I'm hoping my note(s) have made sense to some degree or another. I
think when one lets emotions overtake them when they write notes - it
just tends to make things worse..it may help in some regards but it
can really do damage. I started to see people dislike how you
responded to the situation - not that you should necessarily change
who you are based on other people's visions..but I just wanted
personally - for everyone..if not most everyone..to see you as the
wonderful dear you are. I really wish I had more of an opportunity to
meet you and just get an idea of who you are on person - I'm sure it
would be a wonderful experience..but I know how busy you tend to be.
Take care.. ^.^
*Bounce*
Bruce
"Allen Kitchen"
<all...@blkbox.com>
wrote in message
news:7871882EABE6417E.1C15439A...@lp.airnews.net..
.
>
>
> Frankly, with all the bitching and moaning coming from Orlando,
> I'm not going to either one on a dare.
>
Well, their web site has been updated with the hotel info; same one as
last year, so it seems from the photos.
Those pondering going have about a month to make up their minds.
-Bruce
ferret
> now quite a few people had already scheduled time off of work, booked
> non refundable airline tickets and planned on visiting Orlando in
> March. I'm sorry it is percieved so poorly that some really GOOD
> people decided to lend a hand and offer something.
That part was quite nice of them and I give them all the credit in the
world for even attempting something like this on that short a notice.
Most startup conventions have at least a year if not more of preplanning.
> Sure, it is a
> little different from the usual fare but why is it so bad to not close
> ranks and say that the event is for one group or another? I thought
> one perk of being associate with furry is that we were supposed to be
> a little tolerent an open minded to others. THat is what is expected
> when dealing with you right? Accept me for my furriness ( whatever
> that means to each person) but I'll close my mind to anythign new?
> THat's hardly fair.
Different how? Different because it will not have anything over PG?
That's cool, Most of what little I've purchased the last few years would
easily fall into that catagory. The main difference seems to be that they
are trying to spread the falsehood that 'furry'=sex and 'funny animal'
doesn't. Check the cover of an issue of Omaha the Cat Dancer and see how
it is described some time if you think 'funny animal' is free of all
sexual connotation. The claim that they are the first ever 'funny animal'
convention is pretty disingenious as well. Still that's how they want to
bill it. I'm a furry fan. I like anthropomorphic critters. Since 'funny
animal' is mainly a comic book industry term, I very well might not be a
'funny animal' fan since I'm not all that much into comic books. If this
is to be a convention for furries, I'd appreciate it if they'd say so.
Jeff Novotny
> He did not want
> anyone to take "his con" away from him, as he himself said if you will
> remember.
I am completely staying out of the Orlando con debate. However, I would
like to say that I definitely agree with Kage in his assessment that a
convention should be ... in fact, needs to be ... bigger than any one
person. No one should ever really say "my con" as if they were the only
one responsible; it needs to be "our con". "Our" in terms of including
the entire staff, but also all of the great artists, fans, and writers
who spend their vacation days and extra cash to come from far and wide
to make all of these cons successful. I very much appreciate all that
the staff members of CACE have done so far to get things going, and I
thank everyone who has expressed interest, well wishes, or even
constructive ideas.
We have deliberately gone out of our way to ensure that CACE remains a
group effort, via our incorporation as a not-for-profit arts group, and
in the terms of our charter and bylaws.
In spite of the arguments that sometimes dominate this forum, the fandom
is lucky to have a vast number of great events and great people working
for it. And that's something we should never forget. And in that spirit,
let's hope that the Orlando crew can resolve their differences and also
wish them the best in putting on a great 2002 Megaplex!
Best;
Jeff Novotny ... just speaking for himself, not for CACE
ferret
> You're on the wrong side of the equation. Furry = funny animal comics
> to me. It is all the paraphiles and news reporters that think furry =
> sex.
And apparently the organizers of a certain new con feel that way also or they
wouldn't go so far out of their way not to use it. So if 'funny animal' is a comic
book term and I don't like comic books all that much, I wouldn't necessarily be a
funny animal fan.
> I don't care what they choose to call their con or how they
> choose to sell it. It is their choice, like it is the fans choice as
> to whether they want to go or not.
I'd suggest that maybe somebody make up a bunch of buttons with the word 'Furry' on
them and hand them out there. I'd do it myself, but my con budget and vacation time
is already allocated for the year.
Nakira
> The main difference seems to be that they
> are trying to spread the falsehood that 'furry'=sex and 'funny animal'
> doesn't.
"Spread falsehood"? Where are you getting this? Where did they say "furry =
sex"? Just because they decide to call this a "funny animal" convention, all
of a sudden they are out to deceive and bend out little minds? Where is it
written that all furry conventions MUST have the work "furry in the title"?
They can call it whatever they want and the simple fact that they even
advertised here in the first place shows that they are also catering to
furries.
> I like anthropomorphic critters. Since 'funny
> animal' is mainly a comic book industry term, I very well might not be a
> 'funny animal' fan since I'm not all that much into comic books. If this
> is to be a convention for furries, I'd appreciate it if they'd say so.
...mainly but not restricted to...
"Funny Animals" is just the name of the con and means nothing except that the
main events will be geared around funny animals, some of which may not even
be anthropromorphized and therefore not furry. If you read their first
posting about what the con will involve you will see your attempts to confuse
the issue are unfounded. It will involve animal costumes, puppetry, art and
other fun stuff that furries and non-furries can enjoy. If your lack of
interest in comics will prevent you from coming out, so be it.
Wookiee
Nakira
> > A lot of people said that Anthrocon was a great convention. I will
> > say now, and will never say otherwise, that I had very little to do
> > with that. Anthrocon works because I have some of the best people in
> > the world working on my staff. I could fall in a hole tomorrow and
> > never been seen again, and Anthrocon this year would be just as good
> > as it would have been, or maybe even better.
>
> This is where you are wrong, because as good as the crew is, you need a
> leader type who will work just as hard. You do. I remember finding you
> barely asleep on chairs, because you felt you had to guard a room all
> night...
> Besides, who would tell the Stories?
I agree. Dr. Conway is one of the exceptions. He doesn't just sit in his chair and
delegate. He also takes active part as one of the staff to ensure a smooth con for
the rest of us :)
<a little ass kissing but deservadely so>
Wookiee
ferret
>
> of a sudden they are out to deceive and bend out little minds? Where is it
> written that all furry conventions MUST have the work "furry in the title"?
> They can call it whatever they want and the simple fact that they even
> advertised here in the first place shows that they are also catering to
> furries.
I have no problem at all with the name of the convention. I don't even care if
they want to bill it as focusing on 'funny animals'. I do find it a bit telling
that the word furry doesn't appear anywhere on any page of the con's website.
That wasn't accidental by any means. In some places they seem to get a little
awkward in their wording to avoid using the word. They could have pointed out
someplace on their site that funny animals are what the comic industry tends to
call anthopomorphic animals or what those in the fandom call furries. Nope, not
there. Why the distancing from that word if they have no actual problem with it.
If they do have a problem with it, I'd like to see them simply admit it instead
of purposely misinterpreting it when that subject is brought up.
> "Funny Animals" is just the name of the con and means nothing except that the
> main events will be geared around funny animals, some of which may not even
> be anthropromorphized and therefore not furry.
Animals acting like animals and not anthropomorphized at all are neither furries
or funny animals as far as I know. That doesn't make them out of place since
many furry fans like RL animals too. If 'funny animal' doesn't mean all that
much then they could use the word furry interchangeably in a few places just to
make it clear that it is basically a furry convention.
> posting about what the con will involve you will see your attempts to confuse
> the issue are unfounded. It will involve animal costumes, puppetry, art and
> other fun stuff that furries and non-furries can enjoy. If your lack of
> interest in comics will prevent you from coming out, so be it.
I have a lack of interest in supporting an event who's staff seems to feel that
the use of the usual label for fans of anthropomorphic animals in various media
(ie. furry) will somehow draw the wrong sort of people to their event. I'm
pretty sure it will be little different from a small startup furry con with a
lot of the same events. I suppose I'll find out from the con reports posted
afterwards.
ferret
> >I think that it is my duty to attend this Pawpet Megaplex
>
> Bingo!
>
> You're a sell-out. The only reason you're going is because they give you a
> stage to perform on as you give them a stage to perform on. One cat
> scratches the back of another.
I'll jump in to support Kage here. There are few in the fandom who go to the
effort he does to support all the conventions. I expected nothing less of him
in this case and figured the only reason he'd miss it would be schedule
conflicts with work or something similar. I'm glad he makes it to several other
conventions since he's a fun and pleasant individual to have around. As for him
being on stage, I certainly have no complaints there, he's generally fairly
entertaining and has a gift of being able to hold an audience. Whatever else
you have a problem about with him, you have no call for his support of a new
convention. It wouldn't be the first one he's supported in that fashion.
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> I'd suggest that maybe somebody make up a bunch of buttons with the word 'Furry' on
> them and hand them out there. I'd do it myself, but my con budget and vacation time
> is already allocated for the year.
FIGHT TEH POWAR, SUPA FURRY FIGHTA!!!11!! YOU WILL SAVE FURRY FOR
SHUR, HURRAE!!!11!
-- StukaFox
King of Noodels and Pie and Rex Rouge
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M. Mitchell Marmel
> Right here so far. You chose us for a few reasons; we have a clue, and
> we are not afraid to bring forth ideas and occasional criticism. We work
> like nuts because you actually LISTEN to the ideas we suggest, you are
> not a god, and that is good.
What he said.
Wanna know the difference between Kage and Trish Ny? I did some
preliminary research and suggested a possible hotel venue to Trish, and
she shot me down without even giving the idea any consideration. When
Kage brought Anthrocon to Valley Forge, I was one of the first people
consulted concerning the layout and operations at the Hilton.
That, to me at least, says it all.
> This is where you are wrong, because as good as the crew is, you need a
> leader type who will work just as hard. You do. I remember finding you
> barely asleep on chairs, because you felt you had to guard a room all
> night...
> Besides, who would tell the Stories?
What he said.
> In a nutshell, we work for free because we like the fandom, and we also like you.
>
> You are part of this, willing or not. Cope with it :)
What he said. :D
Nakira
> I have a lack of interest in supporting an event who's staff seems to feel that
> the use of the usual label for fans of anthropomorphic animals in various media
> (ie. furry) will somehow draw the wrong sort of people to their event.
You are assuming again. Maybe they simply did not want the press to be able to do a
search on "Furry" and show up giving them a difficult time or have a hotel turn them
down due to bad press. They have already stated that this is not a Furry only event
but that furs will have a good time.
Wookiee
----------------------
Look, up in the sky! It's a bird... It's a plane... It's... No, wait... It is a
bird. Never mind :/
AJL
> I have a lack of interest in supporting an event who's staff seems to feel that
> the use of the usual label for fans of anthropomorphic animals in various media
> (ie. furry) will somehow draw the wrong sort of people to their event. I'm
> pretty sure it will be little different from a small startup furry con with a
> lot of the same events. I suppose I'll find out from the con reports posted
> afterwards.
That seems to be a very close-minded attitude. There are many reasons
not to use the term "Furry" in advertising a convention, NONE of which
is out of a fear of drawing the wrong people.
The ConFurence Group, for example, only uses the term "furry" when
speaking to an audience who understands what that term means (only
within the fandom, typcally). When advertising outside, like on the
website or with flyers that travel to other conventions, we use the
terms "Anthropomorphic Fandom", "Animal-characters", and/or
"Funny-Animal fandom". These are terms that are easily recognized by
mundanes and do not hold any negative connotations.
And I'm afraid that denial of any negative connotation of the term
"furry" outside of the fandom is simply sad. Thanks to many factors
(the *least* of which is bad press) people who have "heard of furries"
but don't really know what we're about will tend to believe that it's
*all* about beastiality or gay lifestyles.
Within the fandom, we know better. There is a mix of all types.
However, outside the fandom, people do *not* know better.
Real-life example: In 1999, I worked in the Programming department at
Comic-Con International in San Diego. This is the largest fan-based
convention in the world with over 50,000 attendees this past year. On
the last day of the event, I was chatting with the Programming director
(who was doing the job for his first year) and he was quite interested
when I was talking about helping out with generating a funny-animal
track in the programming. You see, Stan Sakai was a Comic-Con guest of
honor that year (celebrating 15 years of Usagi Yojimbo), and turns out
that his panel was the only Funny-animal program on the entire schedule
that year.
Then, I happened to mention that I would be able to arrange panelists
because I was in touch with most of the furry community, and I
immediately saw his mood change as he repeated "Furries?" with a
disgusted look in his face. It was obvious that his only exposure to
the term was a negative one, and my efforts to bring furry fandom to
Comic-Con were halted simply because of his limited vocabulary.
Yes... there are definite *VALID* reasons to carefully choose which
terms you use with different audiences. If I had continued my
conversation by calling furry fandom "Anthro fandom" instead, I could
have helped to accelerate this fandom's move into the mainstream.
Furry fandom, like Anime fandom, will eventually hit mainstream. It's a
long road, though.
Darrel L. Exline
dire...@confurence.net
Gabriel Gentile
> Furry fandom, like Anime fandom, will eventually hit mainstream. It's a
> long road, though.
And rocky... and twisted... and uphill... and mine-laden...
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>Within the fandom, we know better. There is a mix of all types.
>However, outside the fandom, people do *not* know better.
If folks keep running and hiding from using the term "furry," how is that going
to change?
>It was obvious that his only exposure to the term was a negative one,
>and my efforts to bring furry fandom to Comic-Con were halted simply
>because of his limited vocabulary.
So instead of using the opportunity to educate him about furry fandom, you
decided leaving him with a negative impression was okay?
>If I had continued my conversation by calling furry fandom
>"Anthro fandom" instead, I could have helped to accelerate
>this fandom's move into the mainstream.
If you had continued your conversation by calling furry fandom what it is, you
could've provided an alternate viewpoint and helped to eliminate some of the
negative stereotypes folks are always complaining about.
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Anthrofurry Infocenter:
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
Glock
how furry is not this and not that automattically puts the guy on the
defensive.
My opinion is this: If he believes everything he sees on TV and gets
disgusted at something he has no good information is, it's likely he isn't
worth trying to convince.
Glock
"Karl Xydexx Jorgensen" <xydexx_sq...@backwardssocyl.com> wrote in
message news:Xns9197EA1...@66.120.4.171...
Kiala Tekalal
news:3C44DB4A...@ajlvideo.com...
> When advertising outside, like on the
> website or with flyers that travel to other conventions, we use the
> terms "Anthropomorphic Fandom", "Animal-characters", and/or
> "Funny-Animal fandom". These are terms that are easily recognized by
> mundanes and do not hold any negative connotations.
I dunno.. I'm not sure I want to be known as a funny-animal ;>
> Furry fandom, like Anime fandom, will eventually hit mainstream. It's a
> long road, though.
Yay! We like progress! ^_^
-Kiala
Michael Campbell
news:a2328p$1rvn$1...@velox.critter.net:
> "AJL" <grap...@ajlvideo.com> wrote in message
> news:3C44DB4A...@ajlvideo.com...
>> When advertising outside, like on the
>> website or with flyers that travel to other conventions, we use the
>> terms "Anthropomorphic Fandom", "Animal-characters", and/or
>> "Funny-Animal fandom". These are terms that are easily recognized by
>> mundanes and do not hold any negative connotations.
>
> I dunno.. I'm not sure I want to be known as a funny-animal ;>
Actually, you can't be a funny-animal: You have four fingers and a thumb on
each hand and skin all over your body. What you CAN be is a funny animal
fan. Semantics I know, but it's a start...
>
>> Furry fandom, like Anime fandom, will eventually hit mainstream. It's a
>> long road, though.
>
> Yay! We like progress! ^_^
Yes indeed, progress is a good thing. Being someone who was in the anime
community before it 'went mainstream' I can say with a clear concience that
it's easier (and more fun!) to be an anime junkie now than it's ever been:
No more do you have to suffer through fifteenth-generation camera-copies of
the stuff you're looking for. These days you can go to your local SunCoast
Video and buy the DVD! I mean heck, Cartoon Network broadcast the Original
MOBILE SUIT GUNDAM, faithfully translated, with all the original names,
characters, and plots intact. Ten years (heck, FIVE years) ago even the
most hard-core anime fan (myself included) would have laughed in your face
if you told them about something like that happening.
And how did this happen? It happened because the anime community realized
that if it was going to get anywhere, it had to convince the 'mainstream'
people (ie the ones with the money) that the whole anime community was more
than a bunch of pear-shaped geekboys who got nosebleeds over sailor-suited
girls and naughty tentacles. the funny animal fan community could learn
from their example.
Charles Melville
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen wrote:
> AJL wrote:
> >It was obvious that his only exposure to the term was a negative one,
> >and my efforts to bring furry fandom to Comic-Con were halted simply
> >because of his limited vocabulary.
>
> So instead of using the opportunity to educate him about furry fandom, you
> decided leaving him with a negative impression was okay?
Why do you assume that he -didn't- try? The problem with trying to educate
someone about how things really are is that first they have to be receptive to the
message. Some people are, but most people make up their minds pretty quickly and
go from there. Darrel's description of his encounter didn't sound as though the
other guy was prepared to believe anything other than what he had already heard.
The battle was already lost, and any attempt to convince him otherwise was more
likely to be 'tuned out' or shrugged off.
--
-Chuck Melville-
http://www.zipcon.net/~cpam/index.htm
Cerulean
>The ConFurence Group, for example, only uses the term "furry" when
>speaking to an audience who understands what that term means (only
>within the fandom, typcally). When advertising outside, like on the
>website or with flyers that travel to other conventions, we use the
>terms "Anthropomorphic Fandom", "Animal-characters", and/or
>"Funny-Animal fandom". These are terms that are easily recognized by
>mundanes and do not hold any negative connotations.
Maybe not a complete lack of negative connotations. Mainstream comic
fans know what "funny animals" are: kid stuff, reinforcing the idea
that comics are just for children. In Understanding Comics, Scott
McCloud spends nearly as much time looking down his nose at "funny
animals" as he does praising MAUS.
--
___vvz /( Cerulean = Kevin Pease http://cerulean.st/
<__,` Z / ( DC2.~D GmAL~W-R+++Ac~J+S+Fr++IH$M-V+++Cbl,spu
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( 77epueJ - ,,iS37q33M awos +o6 I,,
Atara
>In Understanding Comics, Scott
>McCloud spends nearly as much time looking down his nose at "funny
>animals" as he does praising MAUS.
Ah, irony.
--
Atara
"Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus."
http://www.FurNation.com/Atara/
***What doesn't fit in my email addy? NADA.***
Glock
who saw anime "go mainstream"? Do we have any idea what event or what the
fans did in order to make it mainstream?
Glock
"Michael Campbell" <mecamp...@tds.net> wrote in message
news:Xns91981E2FDBmec...@66.80.12.166...
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> Furry fandom, like Anime fandom, will eventually hit mainstream. It's a
> long road, though.
Furry Fandom HAS hit the mainstream: MTV, Vanity Fair, ER and
there's more coming, doubtless. I don't see how you can be
anymore mainstream than the above.
Bruce
"Karl Xydexx Jorgensen"
<xydexx_sq...@backwardssocyl.com>
wrote in message
news:Xns9197EA1...@66.120.4.171...
>
> So instead of using the opportunity to educate him about furry fandom,
you
> decided leaving him with a negative impression was okay?
>
>
> Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Now there is a leap at an assumption.
Say, if the clock could be turned back and you happened to be the one
present during this incident, and wanted to give the individual in
question a more POSITIVE impression of the fans/fandom, how far do you
think you would be able to get with the name SQUEAKYPONY plastered
across your name tag?
-Bruce
AJL
>
> AJL wrote:
> >and my efforts to bring furry fandom to Comic-Con were halted simply
> >because of his limited vocabulary.
>
> So instead of using the opportunity to educate him about furry fandom, you
> decided leaving him with a negative impression was okay?
What makes you think the topic was open to discussion after that point?
He made an excuse to run away as fast as he can from "the furry freak".
> >If I had continued my conversation by calling furry fandom
> >"Anthro fandom" instead, I could have helped to accelerate
> >this fandom's move into the mainstream.
>
> If you had continued your conversation by calling furry fandom what it is, you
> could've provided an alternate viewpoint and helped to eliminate some of the
> negative stereotypes folks are always complaining about.
Some of us live in the real world. You are dreaming.
--Darrel.
AJL
> Furry Fandom HAS hit the mainstream: MTV, Vanity Fair, ER and
> there's more coming, doubtless. I don't see how you can be
> anymore mainstream than the above.
No, right now we are still at the "look at the freaks" stage, like Anime
fandom was 10 years ago, or where Trek fandom was in the 70's.
--Darrel.
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
Darel,
We _ARE_ freaks.
"We know what you are, now we haggle on price."
Anime was embraced with products like Speed Racer and Kimba, and
continues to be so with products like Totoro, Dragonball Z,
Pokemon and now Cowboy Bebop.
Star Trek has spun off an endless series that've been enjoyed by
"trekker" and mainstream audiences alike (you don't have to be
a trekker to know who Mr. Spock is).
There's no Speed Racer or Star Trek in furry. In fact, the only
"unique" furry picture I've ever seen (that is, a picture that
works only as a furry picture and wouldn't work with a human in
the same place) was the wolf/fox girl working out and getting her
tail caught between the stacks of a weight machine.
What does that leave as a unique and identifiable product?
The porn. The freakishness. The people going around claiming
they're really pregnant astral dolphin/dragons from TEH FUTUR!
That's furry's unique product. Everything else is a bastardization
of something else; "My name is Ishmael. I have a tail".
But the porn furry produces is utterly unique. The freakishness
furry produces is utterly unique (20 million people watch football,
there's not a clique of people claiming they're really Bret Farve).
The people fucking in fursuits, the NAMBLA contingency claiming
they're not really pedophiles, the dog-fucking, the dick-nippl'd
foxes, people fucking pool toys, gigantic hermamphrodite horses
-- that's ALL furry. That's what stands out, that's the handle
the hobby is carried by.
Don't think it's fair?
I'm sure O.J. Simpson would rather by remembered as a 49'er rather
than the "guy who got away with murder".
Don't blame the mirror for the reflection.
-- StukaFox
Juan F. Lara
<FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com> wrote:
> Anime was embraced with products like Speed Racer and Kimba, and
> Star Trek has spun off an endless series that've been enjoyed by
> "trekker" and mainstream audiences alike (you don't have to be
> There's no Speed Racer or Star Trek in furry.
Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny just to start with.
Cartoon animals have been popular since Gertie the Dinosaur. That's
mainstream furry.
- Juan F. Lara
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~jfl/intro.html
AJL
>
> AJL <grap...@ajlvideo.com> wrote:
> > FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com wrote:
> >> Furry Fandom HAS hit the mainstream: MTV, Vanity Fair, ER and
> >> there's more coming, doubtless. I don't see how you can be
> >> anymore mainstream than the above.
>
> > No, right now we are still at the "look at the freaks" stage, like Anime
> > fandom was 10 years ago, or where Trek fandom was in the 70's.
> Anime was embraced with products like Speed Racer and Kimba, and
> continues to be so with products like Totoro, Dragonball Z,
> Pokemon and now Cowboy Bebop.
>
> Star Trek has spun off an endless series that've been enjoyed by
> "trekker" and mainstream audiences alike (you don't have to be
> a trekker to know who Mr. Spock is).
>
> There's no Speed Racer or Star Trek in furry. In fact, the only
> "unique" furry picture I've ever seen (that is, a picture that
When Speed Racer and Kimba were being viewed everywhere, did people know
about Anime fandom? Not generally, no.
Furry Fandom is not generally known about now, but there are furry
products that are accepted in the mainstream.
Let me give you one example: Usagi Yojimbo.
Stan's Sakai's popular Samurai Rabbit spun directly out of the fandom.
His first published appearance was in Steve Gallacci's "Albedo" comic
book. Then Usagi made regular appearances in Fantagraphics' "Critters"
title, and eventually Fantagraphics gave Stan his own title.
The Usagi character later cameo'd in TMNTurtles cartoon episodes, and
had it's own TMNT figurine on store shelves. Mirage picked up the title
when Fantagraphics dropped it, and it is still going strong. Stan Sakai
was Guest of Honor at Comic-Con two years ago, celebrating 15 years of
Usagi.
... right now, yes, most of Furry fandom is "freakish" and "unique" but
there are many aspects that can easily hit mainstream and be acceptable
to the rest of the world, and that can happen at any time. Usagi is
just one example.
--Darrel.
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny just to start with.
> Cartoon animals have been popular since Gertie the Dinosaur. That's
> mainstream furry.
Neither are "furry". Furry is what furry creates. Trying to
hijack someone else's creation as an example of "furry" is
inherantly dishonest and is an attempt to graft an unearned
legitimacy to the hobby. You can say they're an example of
anthropomorphism, you can say "These things are like furry",
or are the inspiration or spiritual beginnings of furry,
but the Walt Disney Company and Warner Bros are never going
to cotton to having their creations tied to this hobby.
Bruce
<FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com> wrote in message
news:3c45d...@news.uncensored-news.com...
>
> but the Walt Disney Company and Warner Bros are never going
> to cotton to having their creations tied to this hobby.
>
> -- StukaFox
Well, if you follow your attempted argument you will see that it begins
with the idea that 'furry' has little choice in what it is tied to. Now
you are apparently attempting to claim that Disney and Warner do have a
choice.
Can't have it both ways. Not where being associated with something in
the public eye is concerned. Besides that public is fragmented anyhow,
I know of a segment that is apparently about 5,000 to 10,000 strong that
DOES tie both companies' works to the furry/anthropomorphic genre/hobby.
I bet Enron does not want to be associated with being another failed,
bankrupt company; but tough beans. Reality is like that sometimes.
-Bruce
Bruce
"AJL" <grap...@ajlvideo.com> wrote in message
news:3C45DCDB...@ajlvideo.com...
>
> ... right now, yes, most of Furry fandom is "freakish" and "unique"
but
> there are many aspects that can easily hit mainstream and be
acceptable
> to the rest of the world, and that can happen at any time. Usagi is
> just one example.
>
> --Darrel
Hoorah! Usagi!
We need to lobby for production of a Usagi movie!
-Bruce
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> Let me give you one example: Usagi Yojimbo.
I wish that 20 years had lead to more than one example. Your
point is true, and Sakai deserves credit for his success, however,
one comic does not mainstream make anymore than one daisy does
Spring announce.
For the forseeable future, the reputation furry has earned its self
is going to overshadow the reputation furry would like to have
for its self. Things may change, but 20 years on, little has.
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> Well, if you follow your attempted argument you will see that it begins
> with the idea that 'furry' has little choice in what it is tied to.
This is incorrect, and is in fact, contrary to the examples I've
shown. The examples of furry shown on MTV and Vanity Fair were
drawn directly from furry.
> Now you are apparently attempting to claim that Disney and Warner do have a
> choice.
Absolutely, they do; it's their product.
> I know of a segment that is apparently about 5,000 to 10,000 strong that
> DOES tie both companies' works to the furry/anthropomorphic genre/hobby.
If 10,000 people believe a lie, that number does not make the
lie suddenly become true.
> I bet Enron does not want to be associated with being another failed,
> bankrupt company; but tough beans. Reality is like that sometimes.
My point exactly, Sir.
Brian Sutton
>Is there anyone in the anime community who was involved in the last 15 years
>who saw anime "go mainstream"? Do we have any idea what event or what the
>fans did in order to make it mainstream?
>Glock
It's complicated but it boiled down to fans doing fan stuff. Local comic
shops started carrying anime books and kits because they sold. The local club
made a point of hitting every convention in driving distance to run a video
room for the show. We had to put some personal tastes aside and chose
programming that was more accessable to nonfans.
The anime porn heads actually had a part in this too but I'll make folks go
over to ALF to read that. Unfortunatly a part that is missing in our case is a
billion dollar industry that had a vested interest in breaking into this
market.
Distilled down, you've got to vote with your dollars. There is currently an
ongoing debate about this on ALF but the fellow that brought it up is only
partly right. His contention was to bring about change through withholding
money, I say a quicker means is through giving money to what you like not
withholding it from what you don't like. As an artist, an editor and a
publisher I'm going to put more time and effort into a known quantity (say
naked shunk gals) than to flownder around trying to figure out what this
unquantified desire is, ( he said he wouldn't buy naked skunk gals, will he buy
naked jackal girls?).
Brian Sutton
"They tried to corner the market on stupidity the way the Hunt brothers
tried with silver "
-Shon Howell
Visit my website @ http://hjg.kcomplex.com
for deals on Furry art & comics
R.A. Clemson
<FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com> wrote:
> Furry is what furry creates. Trying to
> hijack someone else's creation as an example of "furry" is
> inherantly dishonest and is an attempt to graft an unearned
> legitimacy to the hobby. You can say they're an example of
> anthropomorphism, you can say "These things are like furry",
> or are the inspiration or spiritual beginnings of furry,
> but the Walt Disney Company and Warner Bros are never going
> to cotton to having their creations tied to this hobby.
Exactly like I just pointed out to Doodles in his monthly Announcement
of Furry Comic Books:
I was just wondering, in light of all the bad press lately,
shouldn't you be using the term "anthropomorphic animals" rather than
"furry" to describe most of these comics? Especially since comics
professionals tend to sneer at the term "furry"?
IMO, "Furry" should really only be used to describe comics made
specifically by Furries or Furry fans for the fandom."
Ken Pick
> AJL wrote:
> >Within the fandom, we know better. There is a mix of all types.
> >However, outside the fandom, people do *not* know better.
>
> If folks keep running and hiding from using the term "furry," how is that going
> to change?
>
> >It was obvious that his only exposure to the term was a negative one,
> >and my efforts to bring furry fandom to Comic-Con were halted simply
> >because of his limited vocabulary.
>
> So instead of using the opportunity to educate him about furry fandom, you
> decided leaving him with a negative impression was okay?
As the Burned Fur manifesto said 4-5 years ago,
"To most people, Furry = Pervert."
After VF & MTV, it can be amended to read
"Outside the Fandom, Furry = Pervert! Q.E.D"
> >If I had continued my conversation by calling furry fandom
> >"Anthro fandom" instead, I could have helped to accelerate
> >this fandom's move into the mainstream.
>
> If you had continued your conversation by calling furry fandom what it is, you
> could've provided an alternate viewpoint and helped to eliminate some of the
> negative stereotypes folks are always complaining about.
Or he could have found the guy wasn't listening to "alternative
viewpoints", i.e. "Don't confuse me with the facts!", an attitude
which is also found outside of the Internet.
Or he could have come across as a "Furry!" witnessing to a potential
convert, which doesn't cut it whether the Witness is banging a Bible
or a Doug Winger Portfolio.
Note that changing the term "Furry" to something else will not help in
the long run; all it will do is build a linked list of "<new term> =
Furry = Pervert!"
Remember the Politically Correct renaming outside of the fandom? In
the first thirty seconds, every schoolyard bully knew "Special =
Retard" and "Differently Abled/Physically Challenged/Whatever =
Cripple". All that happened were a lot of words were now unusable
because their meanings all pointed to the word they were intended to
replace.
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> IMO, "Furry" should really only be used to describe comics made
> specifically by Furries or Furry fans for the fandom."
AFAIC, that is what furry is: the creation of material by furry
fans meant to appeal to other furry fans.
AJL
> AFAIC, that is what furry is: the creation of material by furry
> fans meant to appeal to other furry fans.
>
> -- StukaFox
And all the more reason to use other terms when advertising the
convention... we wouldn't want to exclude material that was created from
outside the fandom from appearing at the con, now would we?
--Darrel.
---
Disclaimer: Just in case someone reads the above wrong, I do not in any
way imply that material that *is* furry will not be at the convention,
or that by not using the term "furry" in advertising means that only
outside works are going to be present.... that's just silly, but knowing
this fandom, someone might still try to make that point.
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>Now there is a leap at an assumption.
articles that portray furry fandom poorly, when the opportunity arises to
correct people's misconceptions, people ignore it.
It's like they don't _want_ the misconceptions to go away or something.
>Say, if the clock could be turned back and you happened to be the one
>present during this incident, and wanted to give the individual in
>question a more POSITIVE impression of the fans/fandom, how far do you
>think you would be able to get with the name SQUEAKYPONY plastered
>across your name tag?
I doubt having the name Squeakypony plastered on my nametag would matter. By
simple virtue of being someone who _is_ actually interested in giving people a
more positive impression of furry fandom, I'd do a better job of it than you,
who isn't.
I say this because your main motivation on this newsgroup seems to be to spread
doom and gloom about furry fandom; to promote the idea that there's no hope
against bad publicity and we shouldn't bother providing an alternate viewpoint.
All things considered, I'd say you've got furry fandom's best interests in mind
about as much as Betty Roget does.
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
Anthrofurry Infocenter:
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>Karl Xydexx Jorgensen wrote:
>> So instead of using the opportunity to educate him about furry fandom,
>> you decided leaving him with a negative impression was okay?
>
>What makes you think the topic was open to discussion after that point?
>He made an excuse to run away as fast as he can from "the furry freak".
In which case you're contradicting yourself when you said calling furry fandom
"anthro fandom" would've made a difference. So which is it? Was he open to
further discussion or was he running away no matter what you said? You can't
have it both ways.
>Some of us live in the real world. You are dreaming.
Nope. Sorry to disappoint you, Darrel, but I live in the real world too. I've
had folks mention the ER episode to me. I've had folks the mention MTV
schlockumentary to me. I've been amazed at how easy it's been to correct
misconceptions about furry fandom by just being honest instead of running and
hiding and saying "I'm not furry". If I can give folks a favorable impression
of furry fandom, so can other people. So why do folks like you find this so
difficult?
Seriously, Darrel. If you're not going to bother trying to correct
misconceptions about furry fandom, then at least be honest about it.
As far as I can tell, the only difference between you and me is that folks
don't run away from "the furry freak" when I explain what furry fandom is.
Weird, huh?
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>As the Burned Fur manifesto said 4-5 years ago,
>"To most people, Furry = Pervert."
>Or he could have found the guy wasn't listening to "alternative
>viewpoints", i.e. "Don't confuse me with the facts!", an attitude
>which is also found outside of the Internet.
wouldn't have made a difference at all.
Bruce
<FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com>
wrote in message
news:3c45e...@news.uncensored-news.com...
> Bruce <coy...@ricochet.net> wrote:
>
> > Well, if you follow your attempted argument you will see that it
begins
> > with the idea that 'furry' has little choice in what it is tied to.
>
We are going to have to discuss your illogical beliefs one item at a
time:
>
> This is incorrect, and is in fact, contrary to the examples I've
> shown. The examples of furry shown on MTV and Vanity Fair were
> drawn directly from furry.
>
> -- StukaFox
MTV and Vanity Fair were drawn from a subset of perverts within furry,
but were not about the majority of furry fans, or the majority of the
hobby. You must have missed something - especially in regards to the
Vanity Fair article. The writer of the VF article was shown at the
Chicago convention examples of charities, collecting comics, etc. and
elected to drop coverage of those from his VF article because they were
not interesting, would not sell copies of the magazine in grocery
stores. He also opted to fold into his article a non-furry; some
strange lady who had written a book about odd sexual tastes. So now we
have a non-anthro individual, not associated with the hobby at all,
appearing in a supposed article on 'furry'.
The majority of 'furry fans' would state 'the VF coverage was biased,
and not comprehensive'. So I said 'furry has little choice in what it
is tied to' (meaning the VF article, and the public which would have
encountered this article), and you state 'this is incorrect'.
A most odd response, since I am obviously quite correct, at least in
this one point. What are you 'thinking' here?
-Bruce
Bruce
"Brian Sutton"
<bsu77...@aol.com>
wrote in message
news:20020116154802...@mb-bd.aol.com...
>
> >Is there anyone in the anime community who was involved in the last
15 years
> >who saw anime "go mainstream"? Do we have any idea what event or
what the
> >fans did in order to make it mainstream?
>
> >Glock
>
> It's complicated but it boiled down to fans doing fan stuff.
>
<etc.>
>
> Brian Sutton
>
Really!
I heard/read that Anime went 'mainstream' by hitting the Saturday a.m.
cartoons in this country; and Anime hit the Saturday a.m. cartoons by
being cheaper to produce than what the studios had been producing up
till that time. The individual 'cels' often don't change that much in
a Japanese cartoon.
-Bruce
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>Why do you assume that he -didn't- try? The problem with trying to educate
>someone about how things really are is that first they have to be
>receptive to the message. Some people are, but most people make up
>their minds pretty quickly and go from there. Darrel's description of
>his encounter didn't sound as though the other guy was prepared to
>believe anything other than what he had already heard. The battle was
>already lost, and any attempt to convince him otherwise was more likely
>to be 'tuned out' or shrugged off.
Ergo, as I've pointed out, calling furry fandom something else wouldn't have
made a whit of difference.
Hey, I'm just letting you know based on my experience what has worked. I figure
y'all are always complaining that articles that portray furry fandom badly
reflect poorly on you that you'd want to do something to change that, y'know?
If, however, you've changed your mind and aren't interested in improving furry
fandom's reputation, just say so.
Bruce
<FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com>
wrote in message
news:3c45e...@news.uncensored-news.com...
>
> I wish that 20 years had lead to more than one example. Your
> point is true, and Sakai deserves credit for his success, however,
> one comic does not mainstream make anymore than one daisy does
> Spring announce.
>
> For the forseeable future, the reputation furry has earned its self
> is going to overshadow the reputation furry would like to have
> for its self. Things may change, but 20 years on, little has.
>
> -- StukaFox
Okay, I can see where you are coming from now.
You have apparently encountered a 'majority of smut' in your quest
within furry (or lived a life within 'furry' searching out that specific
aspect) - so you believe in a reputation 'furry has earned its self';
and even posted previously 'We _ARE_ freaks..' Really, you are wrong;
but there is probably no wording that I can post on an 'alt.fan.furry'
board to convince you otherwise.
But I can ask you to speak for yourself.
As for me, I am going to vote with Darrel in how I slant my own
particular hopes:
'there are many aspects that can easily hit mainstream and be acceptable
to the rest of the world, and that can happen at any time'.
But sure, I admit it is NEVER going to happen as long as folks in ears
and a tail (and a sexual or mental problem) continue to jump up and down
attempting to win the attention the most recent hack writer/cameraman
passing through; and at the same time claiming they are a 'prime
representations' of what this hobby is about. All of this is to be
expected, even with such a minority in existence; how many writers
looking for money for their next car payment are going to include in
their foreword(s) the more accurate 'I located some really far-out fans
on the extreme fringes of this furry hobby, this is their twisted
tale...'?
But then that has been a complaint about the press for years - how the
average guy attempting to make a living away from the problems of crime
makes for very, very, dull coverage.
I bet you never attended a single one of the following conventions:
ConFurence East
Furry Spring Break 2001
Albany Anthrocon
Where was evidence of your 'we are the freaks' at any of the above
conventions? Since PawPet Megaplex is a continuation of FSB, I bet the
same will hold true there.
Sure, at the bigger cons the large attendence means you will begin to
match a small-sized community - like the one I live in now. Where even
with only 10,000 folks you will still have
o someone born with a mental deficiency, and
o someone who feels a desperate need to go off and sniff gasoline, and
o someone who has a thing for young, young girls.
All of which makes for 'good' press (newspaper's perspective). But
that is not what makes up the majority of the community.
Bruce
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> MTV and Vanity Fair were drawn from a subset of perverts within furry,
> but were not about the majority of furry fans, or the majority of the
> hobby.
So they were furries, yes. They weren't invented by MTV or
VF.
> You must have missed something - especially in regards to the
> Vanity Fair article. The writer of the VF article was shown at the
> Chicago convention examples of charities, collecting comics, etc. and
> elected to drop coverage of those from his VF article because they were
> not interesting, would not sell copies of the magazine in grocery
> stores.
And? Either they were furries or they weren't, and we've pretty
much decided this wasn't some fiction VR or MTV invented.
> The majority of 'furry fans' would state 'the VF coverage was biased,
> and not comprehensive'.
But reflective of reality and not invented whole cloth.
"We know what you are, now we haggle on price."
> So I said 'furry has little choice in what it
> is tied to' (meaning the VF article, and the public which would have
> encountered this article), and you state 'this is incorrect'.
So, there was no fiction in either articles, the people involved
were in furry, were happy to talk about their association with
furry, etc. They were directly tied to furry.
> A most odd response, since I am obviously quite correct, at least in
> this one point. What are you 'thinking' here?
I'm thinkng "Most furries are remarkably obtuse."
Happy the Delightful Bunny
news:3c4567e3...@velox.critter.net...
> Quoth AJL:
>
> >The ConFurence Group, for example, only uses the term "furry" when
> >speaking to an audience who understands what that term means (only
> >within the fandom, typcally). When advertising outside, like on the
> >website or with flyers that travel to other conventions, we use the
> >terms "Anthropomorphic Fandom", "Animal-characters", and/or
> >"Funny-Animal fandom". These are terms that are easily recognized by
> >mundanes and do not hold any negative connotations.
>
> Maybe not a complete lack of negative connotations. Mainstream comic
> fans know what "funny animals" are: kid stuff, reinforcing the idea
> that comics are just for children. In Understanding Comics, Scott
> McCloud spends nearly as much time looking down his nose at "funny
> animals" as he does praising MAUS.
>
Good point. I've never been especially fond of the term "furry" (although I
don't cringe when I hear it anymore), but I like "funny animal" even less.
It sounds old-fashioned and suggests cartoony characters and slapstick
humor. Which is fine, but it doesn't capture the wide variety of stuff
that's labelled as "furry."
"Anthopomorphic" is pretty good, but maybe a little too scientific. And
you'd still need to explain it to someone who wasn't familiar with the
fandom. "Animal character" is easy to understand, but kind of boring.
Happy
Bruce
"Karl Xydexx Jorgensen" <xydexx_sq...@backwardssocyl.com> wrote in
message news:Xns9198DB8...@66.120.4.171...
>
> I doubt having the name Squeakypony plastered on my nametag would
matter.
>
> Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
I agree with AJL - you choose not to live in the real world. Folks go
by how you present yourself; appearance and 'CB handles' included.
Actually, in terms of how to help 'furry' grow I was informed by the
directors I was the biggest sponsor at my area's local 'furry' con,
during its start-up years (outside of seed money, of course). However,
I also know I disagree with your views (most of the time) of how to help
the hobby grow.
-Bruce
Bruce
<FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com> wrote in message
news:3c465...@news.uncensored-news.com...
>
> But reflective of reality and not invented whole cloth.
>
Okay.
My whole post was laid out to show the VF article was NOT 'reflective of
reality', simply slanted to earn the writer some bucks, and you have
chosen to completely ignore this point. So I now view you as the
obtuse one, or a troll, or someone who lives the lifestyle 'documented'
by the VF article.
Either way there really is no point in continuing. Have a nice night.
-Bruce
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> My whole post was laid out to show the VF article was NOT 'reflective of
> reality', simply slanted to earn the writer some bucks, and you have
> chosen to completely ignore this point. So I now view you as the
> obtuse one, or a troll, or someone who lives the lifestyle 'documented'
> by the VF article.
Either the writer told the truth or she didn't. As there's no
lawsuits, I'm going to assume she didn't make up the whole article
out of thin air.
So, these people either exist or they don't, or are part of furry
or they are not. WHY the writer wrote is of no bearing at all,
the fact it's "slanted" is of no bearing at all:
something either IS or it ISN'T. In this case, it apparently IS.
You may feel the representation was unfair, but no matter how
much you try to squirm out of this, you can't escape the fact
the writer did represent reality.
I'm not quite sure why this is so hard for you to wrap your brain
around.
Charles Melville
FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com wrote:
> R.A. Clemson <rog...@att.net> wrote:
>
> > IMO, "Furry" should really only be used to describe comics made
> > specifically by Furries or Furry fans for the fandom."
>
> AFAIC, that is what furry is: the creation of material by furry
> fans meant to appeal to other furry fans.
No, that's just pigeon-holing it in order to satisfy a bias. Furry -is-
anthropomorphics, period. Doesn't matter who does it, or when; doesn't matter if its
for adults or for kids. It's the same word.
All you're really proving is that those unfamiliar or uncomfortable with the word
either misuse it or deny it.
--
-Chuck Melville-
http://www.zipcon.net/~cpam/index.htm
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>I agree with AJL - you choose not to live in the real world. Folks go
>by how you present yourself; appearance and 'CB handles' included.
criticism of my appearance or "CB Handle", I'd be interested in hearing them.
If there is, as you suggest, a problem with the way I present myself, then this
question should be easy for you to answer:
How come folks don't run away from "the furry freak" when I explain what furry
fandom is?
>I also know I disagree with your views (most of the time) of how to help
>the hobby grow.
disagreeing with are ones I actually hold and not ones you've fabricated
because you think I live on the west coast.
--
_________________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen / Xydexx Squeakypony, KSC
http://www.xydexx.com/anthrofurry
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>If there is, as you suggest, a problem with the way I present myself,
>then this question should be easy for you to answer:
>
>How come folks don't run away from "the furry freak" when I explain what
>furry fandom is?
(Dr.-Cat-Style-Disclaimer: Actually, it probably _won't_ be very easy for you
to answer that if the impression you have of me is that I don't present myself
well. Then again, you've previously said that you bet I live on the west
coast. Given that I live on the east coast, south of the Mason-Dixon line, you
might want to consider the possibility that some of your other impressions of
me may also be wrong. Just some food for thought.)
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> No, that's just pigeon-holing it in order to satisfy a bias. Furry -is-
> anthropomorphics, period. Doesn't matter who does it, or when; doesn't matter if its
> for adults or for kids. It's the same word.
Please see my post on hijacking the work of others to graft
an unearned legitimatacy to the hobby.
Furry is what furry does.
There's no studio, no comic, no product made by people outside
the hobby that's calling its self "furry". The only people calling
outside products "furry" are people inside the hobby.
AJL
>
> AJL wrote:
> >What makes you think the topic was open to discussion after that point?
> >He made an excuse to run away as fast as he can from "the furry freak".
>
> In which case you're contradicting yourself when you said calling furry fandom
> "anthro fandom" would've made a difference. So which is it? Was he open to
> further discussion or was he running away no matter what you said? You can't
> have it both ways.
No, there is no contradiction. His disgust was illustrated upon hearing
the term "Furry", not fro mthe 5 minutes of converstation I was having
before that, where I was using the term "Anthro" and "Funny Animal".
From that point on, there wasn't a shadow of a chance of continuing the
conversation; within seconds, he found a reason to be somewhere else.
> >Some of us live in the real world. You are dreaming.
>
> Nope. Sorry to disappoint you, Darrel, but I live in the real world too. I've
> had folks mention the ER episode to me. I've had folks the mention MTV
> schlockumentary to me. I've been amazed at how easy it's been to correct
> misconceptions about furry fandom by just being honest instead of running and
> hiding and saying "I'm not furry". If I can give folks a favorable impression
> of furry fandom, so can other people. So why do folks like you find this so
> difficult?
I don't have difficulty explaining those events when they come up, WHEN
GIVEN THE CHANCE to explain them. How many times was the door closed
beforehand, though?
> Seriously, Darrel. If you're not going to bother trying to correct
> misconceptions about furry fandom, then at least be honest about it.
I have done nothing BUT try to correct the misconceptions about the
fandom. Your accusation that I am doing anything else is based on a
WHOLE LOT of assumptions, and bordering on troll status at this point.
I can see that your basic premise is that I must have done something to
upset him, not that he could possibly have had any preconceived notion
that "furry = weird". You Weren't fucking there!!!! Why the hell are
you jumping to such broad conclusions!
--Darrel.
AJL
>
> Bruce wrote:
> >Now there is a leap at an assumption.
>
> Not really. I'm just kinda surprised that for all the complaining about
> articles that portray furry fandom poorly, when the opportunity arises to
> correct people's misconceptions, people ignore it.
You are muddying the topic... we were discussing the use of the term
furry in advertising conventions, not how other media is involved.
Stop trying to hijaak this topic to suit your own argument.
--Darrel.
AJL
> > Quoth AJL:
> > >The ConFurence Group, for example, only uses the term "furry" when
> > >speaking to an audience who understands what that term means (only
> > >within the fandom, typcally). When advertising outside, like on the
> > >website or with flyers that travel to other conventions, we use the
> > >terms "Anthropomorphic Fandom", "Animal-characters", and/or
> > >"Funny-Animal fandom". These are terms that are easily recognized by
> > >mundanes and do not hold any negative connotations.
>
> don't cringe when I hear it anymore), but I like "funny animal" even less.
> It sounds old-fashioned and suggests cartoony characters and slapstick
> humor. Which is fine, but it doesn't capture the wide variety of stuff
> that's labelled as "furry."
Did you miss the "and/or" part of the post above? I do not use the term
"Funny Animal" to represent the whole of the fandom, but rather I use it
in conjunction with the terms "Anthropomorphic" and/or "Animal
Characters".
No single term outside of the fandom will encompass all of the fandom.
From within, though, we can call ourselves "Furry" and know that it is
all-inclusive.
--Darrel.
Gabriel Gentile
> could possibly have had any preconceived notion
> that "furry = weird". You Weren't fucking there!!!! Why the hell are
> you jumping to such broad conclusions!
Now calm down, Big D. Remember who you're dealing with, here.
Brian Sutton
>I heard/read that Anime went 'mainstream' by hitting the Saturday a.m.
Well that's part of it too, I said it was complicated. It is a lot easier to
bring over a series and translate than to make a series from scratch. But
there is a big leap from Sailor Moon to some of the adult (non sexual) anime
you can rent at a good video store and that's where the fans fit into it.
Dr. Cat
: "Dr. Samuel Conway" <flog...@you-know-the-drill.bellatlantic.net> wrote:
:> It is my earnest hope that all of you will join me in this crusade.
: Umm, now doubtful, though I was originally considering going. Orlando
: is only two hours away, after all; and I was at FSB for the entire three
: days last year.
I'm just curious... Even if Dr. Conway said something you find
objectionable, why would you let his opinions or actions influence
whether you go or don't go?
If I were considering going to this con (which I'm not, doesn't fit into
my plans for this year) I think I'd be basing my decision more on my
assessment of what I think of the various local people involved in the
whole situation down in Florida... Not on what some out-of-towner might
happen to say.
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.furcadia.com
Furcadia - a graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: But maybe that's just me.)
(Disclaimer disclaimer: Or maybe it's just me and 900 bananas!)
Dr. Cat
: Furry Fandom HAS hit the mainstream: MTV, Vanity Fair, ER and
: there's more coming, doubtless. I don't see how you can be
: anymore mainstream than the above.
Rock and Roll music has hit the mainstream, it is mentioned in major
magazines and tv shows many many times every day. Furry fandom is
mentioned in such places maybe a few times a year. There's an example
of how you could be "more mainstream" - being mentioned more times per
year. Furry Fandom is still very obscure and non-mainstream. Golf is
mainstream.
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.furcadia.com
Furcadia - a graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: Disney and Warner Brothers cartoons are mainstream though.
So are basketball, football, baseball, and soccer - but NOT curling.)
(Disclaimer: Curling irons, yes, curling the sport, no.)
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>No, there is no contradiction. His disgust was illustrated upon hearing
>the term "Furry", not fro mthe 5 minutes of converstation I was having
>before that, where I was using the term "Anthro" and "Funny Animal".
>From that point on, there wasn't a shadow of a chance of continuing the
>conversation; within seconds, he found a reason to be somewhere else.
more than a problem with the term "furry", though. Despite your claim that I
don't live in the real world, I've had no such problem.
>I don't have difficulty explaining those events when they come up, WHEN
>GIVEN THE CHANCE to explain them. How many times was the door closed
>beforehand, though?
>> Seriously, Darrel. If you're not going to bother trying to correct
>> misconceptions about furry fandom, then at least be honest about it.
>
>I have done nothing BUT try to correct the misconceptions about the
>fandom.
justification for not using the term "furry". You don't correct misconceptions
about furry fandom if you don't call it furry fandom.
>Your accusation that I am doing anything else is based on a
>WHOLE LOT of assumptions, and bordering on troll status at this point.
I have a consistent record of being opposed to trolls, Darrel. IMHO, you'd do
better to focus on the actual trolls on this newsgroup.
>I can see that your basic premise is that I must have done something to
>upset him, not that he could possibly have had any preconceived notion
>that "furry = weird".
I apologize if I gave that impression then. My basic premise was, and is, that
I've had no trouble explaining furry fandom to anyone.
>You Weren't fucking there!!!!
Yeah, I know, I generally save that for the bedroom. Give me credit for having
some decorum. Sheesh. -:)
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>You are muddying the topic... we were discussing the use of the term
>furry in advertising conventions, not how other media is involved.
don't see you complaining to Bruce about it.
>Stop trying to hijaak this topic to suit your own argument.
true. Really, Darrel. Just because MMM does it doesn't mean you have to.
Rick Pikul
cath...@earthlink.net says...
> xydexx_sq...@backwardssocyl.com (Karl Xydexx Jorgensen) wrote in message news:<Xns9197EA1...@66.120.4.171>...
> > AJL wrote:
> > >Within the fandom, we know better. There is a mix of all types.
> > >However, outside the fandom, people do *not* know better.
> >
> > If folks keep running and hiding from using the term "furry," how is that going
> > to change?
> >
> > >It was obvious that his only exposure to the term was a negative one,
> > >and my efforts to bring furry fandom to Comic-Con were halted simply
> > >because of his limited vocabulary.
> >
> > So instead of using the opportunity to educate him about furry fandom, you
> > decided leaving him with a negative impression was okay?
>
> "To most people, Furry = Pervert."
> "Outside the Fandom, Furry = Pervert! Q.E.D"
And in reality its:
Furry = Something with fur.
Furry fandom = huh?
--
Phoenix
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
> And in reality its:
>
> Furry = Something with fur.
> Furry fandom = huh?
Toraneko
> my plans for this year) I think I'd be basing my decision more on my
> assessment of what I think of the various local people involved in the
> whole situation down in Florida... Not on what some out-of-towner might
> happen to say.
Florida has a situation? Good grief! Someone tell me what is is please
since I'm a Fla fur!
Are we defcon 5 yet?
*heads for a bunker*
Toraneko
AJL
>
> AJL wrote:
>
> You also might like to note repeating Rich Chandler's lies doesn't make them
> true. Really, Darrel. Just because MMM does it doesn't mean you have to.
You lost me on that one... I don't see the connection to MMM or Rich
Chandler. (I haven't even heard form Rich for a few months, other than
his auto-posting of sketchbook netiquette).
--Darrel.
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen
>You lost me on that one... I don't see the connection to MMM or Rich
>Chandler. (I haven't even heard form Rich for a few months, other than
>his auto-posting of sketchbook netiquette).
(translation: express my feelings on a subject like anyone else in this
newsgroup does) originated with Rich Chandler. It's a tactic he used because,
IMHO, he had a serious problem admitting when he was wrong.
As far as how it relates to MMM, you'll recall he's the one who felt the need
to try to start a flamewar on a furry mailing list by parroting that same lie.
The way I see it, that makes him just as dishonest as Rich Chandler.
Last I heard, Rich Chandler was building himself a BattleBot, which I think is
a Good Thing. It's nice to know he's using his time constructively and doing
something he enjoys. Some days I even miss him... until I think about all the
lies he spewed about me and never apologized for.
Then I don't miss him much at all.
Charles Melville
FromTheDes...@StukaFox.Com wrote:
> Charles Melville <cp...@zipcon.com> wrote:
>
> > No, that's just pigeon-holing it in order to satisfy a bias. Furry -is-
> > anthropomorphics, period. Doesn't matter who does it, or when; doesn't matter if its
> > for adults or for kids. It's the same word.
>
> Please see my post on hijacking the work of others to graft
> an unearned legitimatacy to the hobby.
I read it, and that's why I said the above: you're pigeon-holing for the sake of a
bias. Period. You have a gripe and you're rationalizing it.
> Furry is what furry does.
Pointless argument. Sounds clever, means nothing.
> There's no studio, no comic, no product made by people outside
> the hobby that's calling its self "furry". The only people calling
> outside products "furry" are people inside the hobby.
Irrelevant point. It doesn't matter if they call it that or not. The fact remains
that it is one and the same. The main reason folks outside of the fandom don't call it
that is either because they're not aware of the term, or it's simply not widely enough
known for the sake of identifying it to a mainstream audience, or both. It doesn't
matter, since it means the same thing.
Charles Melville
AJL wrote:
He does this all the time, Darrel. You get used to it.
Charles Melville
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen wrote:
> AJL wrote:
> >You lost me on that one... I don't see the connection to MMM or Rich
> >Chandler. (I haven't even heard form Rich for a few months, other than
> >his auto-posting of sketchbook netiquette).
>
> In a nutshell, the claim that I "hijack" threads to "talk about myself"
> (translation: express my feelings on a subject like anyone else in this
> newsgroup does) originated with Rich Chandler. It's a tactic he used because,
> IMHO, he had a serious problem admitting when he was wrong.
That's because he wasn't wrong. You -do- often hijack threads and somehow
twist them to talk about yourself. You also have a tendency to quote of context
and give different spins to what people originally said in order to further your
own points. That's been pointed out by more than one person on this board at
different points over the past few years.