Back to the havens...
Lisa Jennings
Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
"Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
the field to annoy everyone else."
She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
cloth.
"So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
box."
ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
[Undo the Knot to Reply.]
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> "Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> the field to annoy everyone else."
Skorzy snickers and leans against one of the bleacher's posts. "Whaddya'
expect? If ya' mix WebTV and a.f.f... " The rat shakes his head then
lightly scratches his snout. "What I don't get is how so many people can
expend so *much* energy on a.f.f. on the most pointless posts that have
little, if anythin' ta' do with anthropomorphics.."
He giggles and shoves his hands into his labcoat's pockets. "Reminds me of
the Grand Canyon, if ya' pardon the simile.. Ya' have a million strangers
lookin' at this great chasm with the irresistable urge ta' yell out to
tha' tops of their lungs towards it jus' ta' hear their own voice echo off
tha' walls.."
The biorg raises his head and sniffs the air.."I don' think many
conversations about art techniques or animation happen much on the South
Rim neither.. " He grins..
>
> She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
> the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
> placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
> cloth.
>
"I *thought* I smelled wasabi!
> "So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
> some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
> your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
> box."
The rat saunters over and flops down, crosslegged on the blanket, closest
to the picnic basket..He opens the basket and sticks his nose into it.
"Ya' got any futomaki down there?"
>
> ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
-Skorzy
(Who will eat the newsgroup)
--
J. Scott Rogers ** jeff....@ummed.edu **
UMASS Medical Center ** sko...@mindspring.com **
Dept. of Biochemistry "Dr.Skorzy MacFarlaighn"
Program in Molecular Medicine
Worcester, Massachusetts "Confusion will be my epitaph"
-- -Robert Fripp
"The Biorg Universe" Anthropomorphic Fiction w/ J. L. Eddy
http://www.tiac.net/users/bfoxxe/tbu-contents.shtml
Lisa Jennings
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>
> > Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> > "Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> > the field to annoy everyone else."
> Skorzy snickers and leans against one of the bleacher's posts. "Whaddya'
> expect? If ya' mix WebTV and a.f.f... " The rat shakes his head then
> lightly scratches his snout. "What I don't get is how so many people can
> expend so *much* energy on a.f.f. on the most pointless posts that have
> little, if anythin' ta' do with anthropomorphics.."
Agreed... and if anyone points that out, they promptly get flamed.
*sigh*
> He giggles and shoves his hands into his labcoat's pockets. "Reminds me of
> the Grand Canyon, if ya' pardon the simile.. Ya' have a million strangers
> lookin' at this great chasm with the irresistable urge ta' yell out to
> tha' tops of their lungs towards it jus' ta' hear their own voice echo off
> tha' walls.."
Interesting analogy... it's about as useful, too. :3
> The biorg raises his head and sniffs the air.."I don' think many
> conversations about art techniques or animation happen much on the South
> Rim neither.. " He grins..
*sigh* I don't even want to get into that... some small part of me was
thinking about adding a page about Techniques to my website (The "What
do I know about Art?" page), and I decided against it.
> > She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
> > the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
> > placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
> > cloth.
> "I *thought* I smelled wasabi!
Do you have your own hashi, or do you need to borrow a pair? I've got
some bamboo ones rolled up in those cloths, but the purpleheart-wood
ones are mine. :3
> > "So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
> > some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
> > your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
> > box."
> The rat saunters over and flops down, crosslegged on the blanket, closest
> to the picnic basket..He opens the basket and sticks his nose into it.
> "Ya' got any futomaki down there?"
Certainly! I've also got some Tiger-eye rolls, California Rolls,
Atlantic City rolls, Alaskan Rolls, a bunch of tekkamaki and in the
ice-chest are supplies for some more exotic stuff like Dynamite rolls...
those are best when made fresh.
> > ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
>
> -Skorzy
> (Who will eat the newsgroup)
Leave room for dessert!
ermine (I wonder if there's a sushiya close to AAC... hmmmm!)
Doodles
On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:05:57 -0500, Lisa Jennings
<Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote:
>Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
>"Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
>the field to annoy everyone else."
[A silk clad bunny digs his way up under the bleachers and crawls on
top of them to sit next to Micole, his clothing still smoldering.]
*KAFF!* "No lie, bwana ermine. I put on a couple of extra kill
filters, but it's still mighty thick..."
>She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
>the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
>placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
>cloth.
The rabbit watches as things are laid out. "Did you bring the drinks,
or shall I?"
>"So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
>some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
>your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
>box."
"I'll take a salad, with ambrosia chaser, please."
>ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
Unca Spooge, have stomach, will travel.
Jim Doolittle
In article <3517d9eb...@news.primenet.com>,
doo...@cheezies.primenet.com (Doodles) wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:05:57 -0500, Lisa Jennings
> <Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote:
>
> >Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> >"Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> >the field to annoy everyone else."
>
> [A silk clad bunny digs his way up under the bleachers and crawls on
> top of them to sit next to Micole, his clothing still smoldering.]
>
> *KAFF!* "No lie, bwana ermine. I put on a couple of extra kill
> filters, but it's still mighty thick..."
When I have more kill filters than there are readable topics, it's
definetly a time to take a hiatus from the smoldering cesspool that is
often a.f.f.
*Jim pads to the top of the bleachers, fur ruffling in the breeze*
Say, it's a pretty nice view up here! *cringes as he watches another tac
nuke go off down below* Ooooo...I bet that hurt!
-Jim
--
Jim Doolittle dool...@uiuc.edu "Choose again."
-------------------------------- Aenea, The Rise of Endymion
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/doolittl
Andrija Popovic
In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> "Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> the field to annoy everyone else."
Andrian rubs Micole's back and says, "The scary thing is, it all feels
familar now. The waves of newbies crashing in, never bothering with
etiquite. Maybe I'm getting old. I've been on the net for five years or
so. Seems like ten."
> She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
> the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
> placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
> cloth.
>
> "So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
> some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
> your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
> box."
Stomach grumbling, he peers into the basket. "Strombollis? Ooh...remind me
to worshipfully kiss your toes after dinner and a good brushing of the
teeth."
> ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
Andrian
--
Andrija Popovic (vu...@concentric.net)
http://www.concentric.net/~vuk6/index.html
"Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do not abandon them."
--Phantom F. Harlock _Arcadia of My Youth_
Andrija Popovic
In article <skorzy-2303...@pool-207-205-195-34.wlhm.grid.net>,
skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
> In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>
> > Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> > "Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> > the field to annoy everyone else."
>
> Skorzy snickers and leans against one of the bleacher's posts. "Whaddya'
> expect? If ya' mix WebTV and a.f.f... " The rat shakes his head then
> lightly scratches his snout. "What I don't get is how so many people can
> expend so *much* energy on a.f.f. on the most pointless posts that have
> little, if anythin' ta' do with anthropomorphics.."
"Some people need something to fight over. They've got nothing else but
petty arguments." Andrian sighs.
> -Skorzy
> (Who will eat the newsgroup)
--
Andrija Popovic
In article <3516CA13...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> > In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> >
> > > Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> > > "Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> > > the field to annoy everyone else."
> > Skorzy snickers and leans against one of the bleacher's posts. "Whaddya'
> > expect? If ya' mix WebTV and a.f.f... " The rat shakes his head then
> > lightly scratches his snout. "What I don't get is how so many people can
> > expend so *much* energy on a.f.f. on the most pointless posts that have
> > little, if anythin' ta' do with anthropomorphics.."
>
> Agreed... and if anyone points that out, they promptly get flamed.
> *sigh*
"'Ooh, he's oppressing me. Did you see him oppressing me? Help! Help! I'm
being oppressed!'" he says, imitating Michael Palin from _Monty Python and
the Holy Grail_. "It's the rush of being able to attack people without
having to ever see them, or hear from them beyond text.
> > The biorg raises his head and sniffs the air.."I don' think many
> > conversations about art techniques or animation happen much on the South
> > Rim neither.. " He grins..
>
> *sigh* I don't even want to get into that... some small part of me was
> thinking about adding a page about Techniques to my website (The "What
> do I know about Art?" page), and I decided against it.
"Try adding a page on Web Page building techniques. Or how to get those
table things to work just right," Andrian says.
> Leave room for dessert!
"I'm glad this is virtual food. Oye, boje moye.."
> ermine (I wonder if there's a sushiya close to AAC... hmmmm!)
"Yumm." He grins.
Andrija Popovic
> On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:05:57 -0500, Lisa Jennings
> <Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote:
>
> >Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> >"Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> >the field to annoy everyone else."
>
> [A silk clad bunny digs his way up under the bleachers and crawls on
> top of them to sit next to Micole, his clothing still smoldering.]
>
> *KAFF!* "No lie, bwana ermine. I put on a couple of extra kill
> filters, but it's still mighty thick..."
"You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk, you know,"
he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
> >ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
> Unca Spooge, have stomach, will travel.
--
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
In article <3516CA13...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> > In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > The rat shakes his head then
> > lightly scratches his snout. "What I don't get is how so many people can
> > expend so *much* energy on a.f.f. on the most pointless posts that have
> > little, if anythin' ta' do with anthropomorphics.."
>
> Agreed... and if anyone points that out, they promptly get flamed.
> *sigh*
The rat looks up from his Linux textbook and grins.."I used ta' be one of
the most vocal on a.f.f.. I wonder if anyone wonders why I never post
anymore, eh?"
> > The biorg raises his head and sniffs the air.."I don' think many
> > conversations about art techniques or animation happen much on the South
> > Rim neither.. " He grins..
>
> *sigh* I don't even want to get into that... some small part of me was
> thinking about adding a page about Techniques to my website (The "What
> do I know about Art?" page), and I decided against it.
Skorzy's whiskers quiver with amusement, and he closes the textbook,
leaning back in his chair with his hands behind his head. "Ya' know,
Micole? I think ya' should just *do* it. Fuck yer' detractors and post
somethin' on yer' webspace that someone might find useful." He leans
forward and holds up his middle finger, saluting the air with the singular
digit.. "Give yer' detractors a sign so *big* that it hurts yer' hand ta'
keep it wavin' in tha' breeze. I think its the only language they
understand.."
He laughs.. "God.. it really boils my bowels when people *whine* about
webpages like that. I do my best ta' ignore 'em."
> Do you have your own hashi, or do you need to borrow a pair? I've got
> some bamboo ones rolled up in those cloths, but the purpleheart-wood
> ones are mine. :3
Skorzy holds up a pair of bright, maroon instruments.."Yes ma'am! I got my
own pair of lacquered cherrywood hashi with Kinryu on it!" he smiles a
moment,narrowing his eyes before tossing them into his pen pocket..
"Of course, ya' know... sushi is *properly* eaten with tha' fingers..."
> Certainly! I've also got some Tiger-eye rolls, California Rolls,
> Atlantic City rolls, Alaskan Rolls, a bunch of tekkamaki and in the
> ice-chest are supplies for some more exotic stuff like Dynamite rolls...
> those are best when made fresh.
"Dynamite rolls! Yah haaaa!" The rat grabs one.. "Unagi-maki?.. Oh oh!..
Make yer' California rolls with jus' a dash of flyin' fish roe on it..
gives 'em a right, *proper* aftertaste!"
> > > ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
> >
> > -Skorzy
> > (Who will eat the newsgroup)
>
> Leave room for dessert!
The biorg claps his hands together and yells. "Itadakimasu!" He grins..
then start stuffing his muzzle with the eastern delicacies...
>
> ermine (I wonder if there's a sushiya close to AAC... hmmmm!)
Brent Eric Edwards told me that there was a Indian food place, and a
Sushiya near The Omni.. I never got around those last year, but with the
proper group.. you could easily lead me astray into the sinful depths of
Japanese gluttony.. as easily as a rat to cheese.. ;)
-Skorzy
(Who once spent over $180 with a friend at a Sushiya a few years ago...
8) Who says there's no such place as Heaven???)
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
In article <doolittl-230...@port81.lnd.com>, dool...@uiuc.edu
(Jim Doolittle) wrote:
> When I have more kill filters than there are readable topics, it's
> definetly a time to take a hiatus from the smoldering cesspool that is
> often a.f.f.
Skorzy peers off into the rising cloud.. "Smoulderin' cess pool? Naww. I
think thats tha' South Bronx"..
>
> *Jim pads to the top of the bleachers, fur ruffling in the breeze*
The rat points.."Hey! I know that critter!"
>
> Say, it's a pretty nice view up here! *cringes as he watches another tac
> nuke go off down below* Ooooo...I bet that hurt!
Skorzy giggles.. he's never left his seat up here..
-Skorzy
Don Sanders
In article <skorzy-2403...@pool-207-205-195-229.wlhm.grid.net>, skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
>
>Brent Eric Edwards told me that there was a Indian food place, and a
>Sushiya near The Omni.. I never got around those last year, but with the
>proper group.. you could easily lead me astray into the sinful depths of
>Japanese gluttony.. as easily as a rat to cheese.. ;)
>
>-Skorzy
>(Who once spent over $180 with a friend at a Sushiya a few years ago...
>8) Who says there's no such place as Heaven???)
>
The chow licks his chops, oooh! I might tag along, after last year's Lemon
Chicken Saga, and the Great Subway Raid, I think it may be a time to change my
diet, hehe :)
Don Sanders
Dsan Tsan on #furry and on FurryMuck
Valsen Tsan on Tapestries
Artist at Roll Yer Own Graphics
http://www.dreamscape.com/dsand101/dsan.htm
(my furry page) Email dsan...@future.dreamscape.com
Doodles
On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:22:53 -0500, dool...@uiuc.edu (Jim Doolittle)
wrote:
>In article <3517d9eb...@news.primenet.com>,
>doo...@cheezies.primenet.com (Doodles) wrote:
>When I have more kill filters than there are readable topics, it's
>definetly a time to take a hiatus from the smoldering cesspool that is
>often a.f.f.
Oh, I don't know. I'm just enough of a fool to keep watching and
making adjustments as needed. There's still a little wheat with the
chaff.
>*Jim pads to the top of the bleachers, fur ruffling in the breeze*
>
>Say, it's a pretty nice view up here! *cringes as he watches another tac
>nuke go off down below* Ooooo...I bet that hurt!
Not as much as the sudden dose of laxitives that seems to have been
put in the water for them folks.
Unca Spooge, having a Depends moment. =};-3
Doodles
>In article <3517d9eb...@news.primenet.com>,
>doo...@cheezies.primenet.com (Doodles) wrote:
>
>> [A silk clad bunny digs his way up under the bleachers and crawls on
>> top of them to sit next to Micole, his clothing still smoldering.]
>
>"You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk, you know,"
>he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
"I know this nice Chinese hand laundry. They also wash other things
besides Chinses hands, too."
Unca Spooge, working on sewing up his Borscht Belt.
Lisa Jennings
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>> Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
>>> Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>>> The rat shakes his head then
>>> lightly scratches his snout. "What I don't get is how so many people can
>>> expend so *much* energy on a.f.f. on the most pointless posts that have
>>> little, if anythin' ta' do with anthropomorphics.."
>> Agreed... and if anyone points that out, they promptly get flamed.
>> *sigh*
> The rat looks up from his Linux textbook and grins.."I used ta' be one of
> the most vocal on a.f.f.. I wonder if anyone wonders why I never post
> anymore, eh?"
The little ermine's fur shimmers a frustrated toast. "I figured you were
giving up on them or being busy with RL... like I was."
> > > The biorg raises his head and sniffs the air.."I don' think many
> > > conversations about art techniques or animation happen much on the South
> > > Rim neither.. " He grins..
> > *sigh* I don't even want to get into that... some small part of me was
> > thinking about adding a page about Techniques to my website (The "What
> > do I know about Art?" page), and I decided against it.
> Skorzy's whiskers quiver with amusement, and he closes the textbook,
> leaning back in his chair with his hands behind his head. "Ya' know,
> Micole? I think ya' should just *do* it. Fuck yer' detractors and post
> somethin' on yer' webspace that someone might find useful." He leans
> forward and holds up his middle finger, saluting the air with the singular
> digit.. "Give yer' detractors a sign so *big* that it hurts yer' hand ta'
> keep it wavin' in tha' breeze. I think its the only language they
> understand.."
Micole's fur brightens back up. "Well, considering that I've been giving
pointers to some friends, been asked to critique others, and I've
already got an Archive site showcasing some of my older stuff (as well
as non-illustration artwork), I had though to tagging an additional page
with my personal ramblings from all the questions that gets tossed at me
(the ermine artFAQ?). Maybe I will after all.... after I get the website
more stable."
> He laughs.. "God.. it really boils my bowels when people *whine* about
> webpages like that. I do my best ta' ignore 'em."
I still want Wolf Kidd to do his personal Awards... he's got some
doozies from our mutual 'aggressive artist' points of view. :3
> > Do you have your own hashi, or do you need to borrow a pair? I've got
> > some bamboo ones rolled up in those cloths, but the purpleheart-wood
> > ones are mine. :3
> Skorzy holds up a pair of bright, maroon instruments.."Yes ma'am! I got my
> own pair of lacquered cherrywood hashi with Kinryu on it!" he smiles a
> moment,narrowing his eyes before tossing them into his pen pocket..
>
> "Of course, ya' know... sushi is *properly* eaten with tha' fingers..."
True, but I like to eat the ginger with hashi... and I'm a bit of a
neatfreak. Then again, there's always tempura... :3
> > Certainly! I've also got some Tiger-eye rolls, California Rolls,
> > Atlantic City rolls, Alaskan Rolls, a bunch of tekkamaki and in the
> > ice-chest are supplies for some more exotic stuff like Dynamite rolls...
> > those are best when made fresh.
>
> "Dynamite rolls! Yah haaaa!" The rat grabs one.. "Unagi-maki?.. Oh oh!..
> Make yer' California rolls with jus' a dash of flyin' fish roe on it..
> gives 'em a right, *proper* aftertaste!"
You want Dynamite rolls? See that page there and those little boxes
marked 1 through 6? The page gives the instructions on how much from
each box to add to the basic recipe in that big container to get the
right Level Of Distress (from 1 to 10, 1 being the no-spice recipe and
10 being 'eats through metal')
Yes, I roll the nori inside the roll instead of the outsde, with roe
rolled on the outside. Have you ever had Tiger-Eye rolls? They're quite
tasty, and served elegantly... Oh, I _do_ use real crabmeat in the
California rolls, just to warn you...
> > > > ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
> > > -Skorzy
> > > (Who will eat the newsgroup)
> > Leave room for dessert!
> The biorg claps his hands together and yells. "Itadakimasu!" He grins..
> then start stuffing his muzzle with the eastern delicacies...
> > ermine (I wonder if there's a sushiya close to AAC... hmmmm!)
> Brent Eric Edwards told me that there was a Indian food place, and a
> Sushiya near The Omni.. I never got around those last year, but with the
> proper group.. you could easily lead me astray into the sinful depths of
> Japanese gluttony.. as easily as a rat to cheese.. ;)
Wheee! I miss being in California and just walking to a sushiya for
dinner with friends.... although we have found a tiny hole-in-the-wall
place here that has good food, just no license to serve alcohol. What's
sushi without sake? Even if I don't drink the stuff more than a sip, the
aroma makes for the atmosphere....
> -Skorzy
> (Who once spent over $180 with a friend at a Sushiya a few years ago...
> 8) Who says there's no such place as Heaven???)
There was once a place called Meji-kan in Marina Del Ray with a lovely
conveyer belt system and 4 chefs in the middle... they would have an All
You Can Eat night and our cadre would clean the place out. *Happy sigh*
I don't know if Sakura's is still around, but that was the place Nicolai
Shapero and family would go to with us after a day of Other Suns
gaming... great place that knew us, and walking distance from his house.
:3
More local to us was Osu, which I think is still the best (and biggest)
sushiya in Westminster... the chefs there drank and we'd tip them with
Sapporo. That's where I found the first dynamite rolls... or rather, my
ex did.
Another happy memory was at a place with the unlikely name of Tokyo
Sushi (we were leary of names like that instead of proper Japanese
names...) run by a comedien sushi-chef from Tokyo names Ken Sousa. I
heard he recently retired and sold the business, though... he was great,
let me keep my japanese from getting too rusty.
It's a shame I'm too old to apprentice...
ermine (*happy sighs at fond memories...*)
Lisa Jennings
Don Sanders wrote:
> (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
> >Brent Eric Edwards told me that there was a Indian food place, and a
> >Sushiya near The Omni.. I never got around those last year, but with the
> >proper group.. you could easily lead me astray into the sinful depths of
> >Japanese gluttony.. as easily as a rat to cheese.. ;)
> >
> >(Who once spent over $180 with a friend at a Sushiya a few years ago...
> >8) Who says there's no such place as Heaven???)
> >
>
> Chicken Saga, and the Great Subway Raid, I think it may be a time to change my
> diet, hehe :)
Shall we plan a foray?? :D
ermine
Lisa Jennings
Doodles wrote:
>
> On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:05:57 -0500, Lisa Jennings
> <Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote:
>
> >Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> >"Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> >the field to annoy everyone else."
>
> top of them to sit next to Micole, his clothing still smoldering.]
>
> filters, but it's still mighty thick..."
"Ouch, Dood.... I don't think smoldering silk adds much to the taste of
sushi, but I've got some yakkitori waiting to be cooked over there in
the coldpack..." :3
> >She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
> >the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
> >placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
> >cloth.
>
> The rabbit watches as things are laid out. "Did you bring the drinks,
> or shall I?"
"I just brought some homemade lemonade, sencha, and my favorite soda...
anything else I'm afraid you'll have to provide. There's only so much
room in my portable hold."
Micole pulls out an odd oval wirework, says a small prayer over it, and
then sets the teapot over wirework as a tiny sphere of light appears
within the mesh, glowing hotly.
"The sencha will be ready in a few minutes, if nobody minds."
> >"So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
> >some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
> >your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
> >box."
>
> "I'll take a salad, with ambrosia chaser, please."
Micole giggles! "No problem... can you grab the /ikanima/...err,
orange-sherbet-colored cold container in the coldpack? That's got the
ambrosia in it."
> >ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
> Unca Spooge, have stomach, will travel.
Just don't pull a Max on me, will ya? :3
Lisa Jennings
Andrija Popovic wrote:
>
> "You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk, you know,"
> he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
Would you like anything with that stromboli? I've got some maranara
sauce, and the parmesian and hot peppers are in the lemon-colored
condiments packs on the side of the basket.
ermine (always prepared)
Lisa Jennings
Andrija Popovic wrote:
> In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> > "Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> > the field to annoy everyone else."
> familar now. The waves of newbies crashing in, never bothering with
> etiquite. Maybe I'm getting old. I've been on the net for five years or
> so. Seems like ten."
Here, here... while I've only been on the internet for 2 years, I've
been 'hooked in' for more like 12 (with a 4 year hiatus, bleah). I feel
like a jaded old woman... or a matriarch, take your pick.
> > She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
> > the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
> > placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
> > cloth.
> > "So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
> > some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
> > your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
> > box."
> Stomach grumbling, he peers into the basket. "Strombollis? Ooh...remind me
> to worshipfully kiss your toes after dinner and a good brushing of the
> teeth."
*giggle!*
Well, I didn't think _everyone_ would want sushi... I know Doodles
doesn't partake in it. So I picked a wide assortment of lunch items with
and without meat so people can choose.
Micole wiggles her toes. "I dunno about kissing them... a massage would
be nice though." :3
ermine (who always considers who she's catering to)
Jim Doolittle
In article <3517CC68...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Andrija Popovic wrote:
> >
> > "You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk, you know,"
> > he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
>
> Would you like anything with that stromboli? I've got some maranara
> sauce, and the parmesian and hot peppers are in the lemon-colored
> condiments packs on the side of the basket.
Jim's ears quiver. "Italian? Count me in!"
-Jim, not a sushi fan. :)
Lisa Jennings
Jim Doolittle wrote:
>Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > Andrija Popovic wrote:
> > >
> > > "You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk, you know,"
> > > he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
> >
> > Would you like anything with that stromboli? I've got some maranara
> > sauce, and the parmesian and hot peppers are in the lemon-colored
> > condiments packs on the side of the basket.
>
> Jim's ears quiver. "Italian? Count me in!"
>
> -Jim, not a sushi fan. :)
That's why I brought them... I notice that a good percentage of my
friends in fandom like a) Japanese, b) Italian, or c) vegetarian, so I
provided for all.... the club-subs and taco-bar were for the meat-loving
folks. :3
Now, did you want sauce on your strombolli?
ermine
Doodles
On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:06:35 -0500, Lisa Jennings
<Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote:
>"Ouch, Dood.... I don't think smoldering silk adds much to the taste of
>sushi, but I've got some yakkitori waiting to be cooked over there in
>the coldpack..." :3
Doodles chuckles. "No matter. I'm going to stick to veggies today.
I'll have my taylor fix this up in no time."
>"I just brought some homemade lemonade, sencha, and my favorite soda...
>anything else I'm afraid you'll have to provide. There's only so much
>room in my portable hold."
"No problema." he chuckles, as he produces a few mugs and cups. "I've
never had sencha. Does it go well with any particular mixers, or is
it best straight?"
>Micole pulls out an odd oval wirework, says a small prayer over it, and
>then sets the teapot over wirework as a tiny sphere of light appears
>within the mesh, glowing hotly.
>
>"The sencha will be ready in a few minutes, if nobody minds."
"Not at all. I'll take a small cup and taste it first. I dislike
wasting food."
>> "I'll take a salad, with ambrosia chaser, please."
>
>Micole giggles! "No problem... can you grab the /ikanima/...err,
>orange-sherbet-colored cold container in the coldpack? That's got the
>ambrosia in it."
Grabbing the pack as requested, the bunny makes a few notes.
"Ikanima. No doubt color listings from you folks would take up
volumes of an encyclopedia..."
>> >ermine (will feed the newsgroup!)
>> Unca Spooge, have stomach, will travel.
>
>Just don't pull a Max on me, will ya? :3
Unca Spooge, pushing the button. =};-3
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
Most certainly!!! Perhaps a trip the night of the fourth, then we could
walk up to the Albany Plaza for that Firework display..
You can't *miss* me.. the guy wearing the white lab coat that *isn't*
Uncle Kage.. ;) Grab me *wherever* I am....
This year I'll have proper badge courtesy of Shawn Reed, my amateurish
fiddling with Photoshop. Barring that, look around the Artshow for the
rat grinding his teeth...;)
Allen Kitchen
Lisa Jennings <Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote in article
<35167A55...@SamePlace.com>...
> Micole watches the latest bombardment on a.f.f. and heaves a sigh.
> "Lovely, now we got 1 to 3 buddies on WebTV playing with each other in
> the field to annoy everyone else."
>
> She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
> the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
> placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
> cloth.
>
> "So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
> some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
> your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
> box."
The netwolf sets a couple of bottles of wine down. One red,
one white. A picnic in the spring for the furs is a wonderful idea milady!
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Lisa Jennings
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> In article <3517CA50...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > Don Sanders wrote:
> > > (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
> > > >(Who once spent over $180 with a friend at a Sushiya a few years ago...
> > > >8) Who says there's no such place as Heaven???)
> > > The chow licks his chops, oooh! I might tag along, after last year's Lemon
> > > Chicken Saga, and the Great Subway Raid, I think it may be a time to
> change my
> > > diet, hehe :)
> > Shall we plan a foray?? :D
>
> Most certainly!!! Perhaps a trip the night of the fourth, then we could
> walk up to the Albany Plaza for that Firework display..
Now, *that* sounds like a plan!
> You can't *miss* me.. the guy wearing the white lab coat that *isn't*
> Uncle Kage.. ;) Grab me *wherever* I am....
Well, Uncle Kage also is known to run around in his labcoat... but I
think his hair is much shorter than yours. :3
> This year I'll have proper badge courtesy of Shawn Reed, my amateurish
> fiddling with Photoshop. Barring that, look around the Artshow for the
> rat grinding his teeth...;)
What a plan... do I have time to make Caer Carnivore badges? Hmmmmm!
And I'd _better_ be able to locate you in the Artshow... I'm working it
too! :D
ermine (the girl with the long gold hair... just not long enough for
_me_)
no one in particular
>
> > When I have more kill filters than there are readable topics, it's
> > definetly a time to take a hiatus from the smoldering cesspool that is
> > often a.f.f.
>
> think thats tha' South Bronx"..
"I'm not sure," Wayd chimes in as he briefly wanders through.
"It smells like the north end of town when the wind is just right
comin' in over the MDC plant. Or did someone bring onion dip gone a
bit past the expiration date?"
> >
> > *Jim pads to the top of the bleachers, fur ruffling in the breeze*
>
> The rat points.."Hey! I know that critter!"
"Lookin very relaxed on Spring Break, there. Nothing like
taking a step back. No, maybe a step forward. Never mind. Step back.
No, step forward. And now we're doing the cha-cha..."
> >
> > Say, it's a pretty nice view up here! *cringes as he watches another tac
> > nuke go off down below* Ooooo...I bet that hurt!
>
> Skorzy giggles.. he's never left his seat up here..
"Say," the N&DS wolf asked, "how much are those season
tickets, anyways?"
> -Skorzy
>
> --
> J. Scott Rogers ** jeff....@ummed.edu **
(snip)
"I'm headed off to a.f.f for a moment, then the post office.
And I still have to buy a pair of pink fuzzy slippers, a bathrobe,
a hair net, a romance novel, and a wooden spoon before July. Hope
there's money in the budget..." (Wayd walks off the end of the
bleachers, plunges twenty feet) "Ow."
-Wayd Wolf, putting a chiropractor on the list...
Skytech
Lisa Jennings wrote:
>
> "So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
> some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
> your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
> box."
>
Sky's eyes widen as he goes for the strombolli! He breaks it open and sniffs.
Ahh, mouse!!
Kidding! Pass the 'tater salad.
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
.D
Tygger L. Graf
Jim Doolittle wrote in message ...
>In article <3517CC68...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com
wrote:
>
>> Andrija Popovic wrote:
>> >
>> > "You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk, you
know,"
>> > he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
>>
>> Would you like anything with that stromboli? I've got some maranara
>> sauce, and the parmesian and hot peppers are in the lemon-colored
>> condiments packs on the side of the basket.
>
>Jim's ears quiver. "Italian? Count me in!"
>-Jim, not a sushi fan. :)
"Italian?! Foodage?" The shifter moves down from her seat in the upper
tier but moving much slower than usual due to being horridly ill. "Glad to
see I'm not the only one who don't like sushi. Tried it once, but just
couldn't do it."
Settling beside the ermine, her tiger ears perk as she looks over Micole's
shoulder. "Got anything Mexican? Need something spicey to clear the head
and lungs."
--Tygger
Andrija Popovic
In article <3519910f...@news.primenet.com>,
doo...@cheezies.primenet.com (Doodles) wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:45:46 -0400, vu...@concentric.net (Andrija
> Popovic) wrote:
>
> >In article <3517d9eb...@news.primenet.com>,
> >doo...@cheezies.primenet.com (Doodles) wrote:
> >
> >> [A silk clad bunny digs his way up under the bleachers and crawls on
> >> top of them to sit next to Micole, his clothing still smoldering.]
> >
> >"You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk, you know,"
> >he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
>
> "I know this nice Chinese hand laundry. They also wash other things
> besides Chinses hands, too."
"So, are the hands usually attached to the wrists when they're washed or
removed before hand?"
> Unca Spooge, working on sewing up his Borscht Belt.
--
Andrija Popovic
In article <3517CA17...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > The rat looks up from his Linux textbook and grins.."I used ta' be one of
> > the most vocal on a.f.f.. I wonder if anyone wonders why I never post
> > anymore, eh?"
>
> The little ermine's fur shimmers a frustrated toast. "I figured you were
> giving up on them or being busy with RL... like I was."
"I've always kept my head low. If I wanted to get into a pointless,
degrading argument, that's what the family is for." Andrian grins.
> > Skorzy's whiskers quiver with amusement, and he closes the textbook,
> > leaning back in his chair with his hands behind his head. "Ya' know,
> > Micole? I think ya' should just *do* it. Fuck yer' detractors and post
> > somethin' on yer' webspace that someone might find useful." He leans
> > forward and holds up his middle finger, saluting the air with the singular
> > digit.. "Give yer' detractors a sign so *big* that it hurts yer' hand ta'
> > keep it wavin' in tha' breeze. I think its the only language they
> > understand.."
>
> Micole's fur brightens back up. "Well, considering that I've been giving
> pointers to some friends, been asked to critique others, and I've
> already got an Archive site showcasing some of my older stuff (as well
> as non-illustration artwork), I had though to tagging an additional page
> with my personal ramblings from all the questions that gets tossed at me
> (the ermine artFAQ?). Maybe I will after all.... after I get the website
> more stable."
"I still can't see how a simple 'How I drew this picture' page can be so
controversial. It's not like you're grabbing people you don't like and
pointing out the flaws in their art. That would be like people getting
angry at me for teling them how I wrote a short story, what I enjoy in
short stories, and pointing them to other authors I like."
Andrian shrugs, "Then again, I'm wierd."
> > He laughs.. "God.. it really boils my bowels when people *whine* about
> > webpages like that. I do my best ta' ignore 'em."
>
> I still want Wolf Kidd to do his personal Awards... he's got some
> doozies from our mutual 'aggressive artist' points of view. :3
<chuckles. This I'd like to see.
> > Skorzy holds up a pair of bright, maroon instruments.."Yes ma'am! I got my
> > own pair of lacquered cherrywood hashi with Kinryu on it!" he smiles a
> > moment,narrowing his eyes before tossing them into his pen pocket..
> >
> > "Of course, ya' know... sushi is *properly* eaten with tha' fingers..."
>
> True, but I like to eat the ginger with hashi... and I'm a bit of a
> neatfreak. Then again, there's always tempura... :3
"I'm a ton katsu freak myself."
> > The biorg claps his hands together and yells. "Itadakimasu!" He grins..
> > then start stuffing his muzzle with the eastern delicacies...
> > > ermine (I wonder if there's a sushiya close to AAC... hmmmm!)
> > Brent Eric Edwards told me that there was a Indian food place, and a
> > Sushiya near The Omni.. I never got around those last year, but with the
> > proper group.. you could easily lead me astray into the sinful depths of
> > Japanese gluttony.. as easily as a rat to cheese.. ;)
>
> Wheee! I miss being in California and just walking to a sushiya for
> dinner with friends.... although we have found a tiny hole-in-the-wall
> place here that has good food, just no license to serve alcohol. What's
> sushi without sake? Even if I don't drink the stuff more than a sip, the
> aroma makes for the atmosphere....
"Move down to DC," he grins. "We've got a wide variety of restaurant. You
haven't lived until you've eaten Etheopian food at the Marrakesh
restaurant with a belly dancer in the background.
Oh, on the topic of Japanese restuarants in Albany:
Arita Japanese Restaurant
192 North Allen Street, Albany, NY 12206
(518) 482-1080
Hiro's Japanese Restaurant
1933 Central Avenue, Albany, NY 12205
(518) 456-1180
Kyoto Japanese Restaurant
1094 Madison Avenue, Albany, NY 12208
(518) 489-6966
MINO Japanese Noodle House
218 Central Avenue, Albany, NY 12206
(518) 436-7789
> ermine (*happy sighs at fond memories...*)
> [Undo the Knot to Reply.]
Andrian
(Hell on Wheels with a good search engine. ^_^)
Andrija Popovic
In article <3517CC68...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Andrija Popovic wrote:
> >
> > "You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk, you know,"
> > he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
>
> Would you like anything with that stromboli? I've got some maranara
> sauce, and the parmesian and hot peppers are in the lemon-colored
> condiments packs on the side of the basket.
Andrian licks his chops and says, "To quote Kosh: yes. I haven't had a
good Stromboli since that Italian restaurant in Dubrovnik fourteen years
ago."
> ermine (always prepared)
Andrian
<Ah, the memories>
Andrija Popovic
In article <3517CA50...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Don Sanders wrote:
> > (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
> > >Brent Eric Edwards told me that there was a Indian food place, and a
> > >Sushiya near The Omni.. I never got around those last year, but with the
> > >proper group.. you could easily lead me astray into the sinful depths of
> > >Japanese gluttony.. as easily as a rat to cheese.. ;)
> > >
> > >-Skorzy
> > >(Who once spent over $180 with a friend at a Sushiya a few years ago...
> > >8) Who says there's no such place as Heaven???)
> > >
> >
> > The chow licks his chops, oooh! I might tag along, after last year's Lemon
> > Chicken Saga, and the Great Subway Raid, I think it may be a time to
change my
> > diet, hehe :)
>
> Shall we plan a foray?? :D
Ooh, can I get in on this? <grin>
> ermine
> [Undo the Knot to Reply.]
Andrian
--
Andrija Popovic
In article <3517CD41...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > Andrian rubs Micole's back and says, "The scary thing is, it all feels
> > familar now. The waves of newbies crashing in, never bothering with
> > etiquite. Maybe I'm getting old. I've been on the net for five years or
> > so. Seems like ten."
>
> Here, here... while I've only been on the internet for 2 years, I've
> been 'hooked in' for more like 12 (with a 4 year hiatus, bleah). I feel
> like a jaded old woman... or a matriarch, take your pick.
"God Empress of the net?" he says, smiling. "But you look nothing like
Leto the Third."
> > > She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
> > > the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
> > > placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
> > > cloth.
> > > "So, what are people in the mood for? I've got some sushi handrolls,
> > > some subs, and I think those are strombollis.... that's the Chef Salad,
> > > your choice of dressing, and I've got some ambrosia in the coldpack
> > > box."
> > Stomach grumbling, he peers into the basket. "Strombollis? Ooh...remind me
> > to worshipfully kiss your toes after dinner and a good brushing of the
> > teeth."
>
> *giggle!*
> Well, I didn't think _everyone_ would want sushi... I know Doodles
> doesn't partake in it. So I picked a wide assortment of lunch items with
> and without meat so people can choose.
"Italian cooking has a dear, dear place in my heart," he says, cleaning
off his plate with a bit of bread. "I've got a good streak of Italian
blood in me and it calls to this food."
> Micole wiggles her toes. "I dunno about kissing them... a massage would
> be nice though." :3
Wiping his hands, Andrian bows and says, "I'd be honored." He kisses your
foot either way then says, "Which one aches more?"
> ermine (who always considers who she's catering to)
Andrian
<Who's very glad Micole's so considerate.>
Doodles
>In article <3519910f...@news.primenet.com>,
>doo...@cheezies.primenet.com (Doodles) wrote:
>> "I know this nice Chinese hand laundry. They also wash other things
>> besides Chinses hands, too."
>
>"So, are the hands usually attached to the wrists when they're washed or
>removed before hand?"
"I'm not sure. They might remove up to the shoulder, as they seeem
like 'armless folks to me."
Unca Spooge, channelling the spirit Henny Youngman
Lisa Jennings
Tygger L. Graf wrote:
> Jim Doolittle wrote in message ...
> >> Andrija Popovic wrote:
> >> > "You're never going to get those smoke-stains out of that silk,
> >> > you know," he says, cutting his stroboli into slices.
> >> Would you like anything with that stromboli? I've got some maranara
> >> sauce, and the parmesian and hot peppers are in the lemon-colored
> >> condiments packs on the side of the basket.
> >
> >-Jim, not a sushi fan. :)
>
> "Italian?! Foodage?" The shifter moves down from her seat in the upper
> tier but moving much slower than usual due to being horridly ill. "Glad to
> see I'm not the only one who don't like sushi. Tried it once, but just
> couldn't do it."
Hey, like I said, I understand. As a odd point, I usually don't go into
the raw-fish stuff myself, although I love sushi. This is why I tend
towards handrolls and ebi (cooked shrimp) and anago (broiled eel) and
stuff -- my system seems a bit sensitive to trying to digest the heavy
proteins in the raw fish.
> Settling beside the ermine, her tiger ears perk as she looks over Micole's
> shoulder. "Got anything Mexican? Need something spicey to clear the head
> and lungs."
I got a big-ol taco bar right here... beef, chicken, refried beans,
rice, 3 cheeses, lettuce, tomatos, roasted garlic, onions, guacamole,
sour cream.... all those containers with the blue lids right there. The
hard shells are in that tall bin and the flour tortillas are here in the
their steaming box. I should just call it the Mexican Sandwich bar,
seeing that I'm partial to burritos more than tacos (hence the
tortillas), but it's kinda tradition to just call it the Taco Bar.
Dig in, Tyg! THere's mild and hot sauce packets in the basket... the
green stuff is the 'hot' sauce.
ermine (hardwired omnivore)
[Undo the Knot to Reply]
Patrick C. Jones
skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
>In article <doolittl-230...@port81.lnd.com>, dool...@uiuc.edu
>(Jim Doolittle) wrote:
>> When I have more kill filters than there are readable topics, it's
>> definetly a time to take a hiatus from the smoldering cesspool that is
>> often a.f.f.
>Skorzy peers off into the rising cloud.. "Smoulderin' cess pool? Naww. I
>think thats tha' South Bronx"..
A paper airplane settles at the good Doctor's feet. Inside is a note:
"Naw. The S.B. quit burning years ago. Now 1 and 2 family houses are
springing up like weeds. Parts of the place look like suburbia now. I
should know- been working there fer 6 years now"
"PCJ--torch the second 'r' to email"
Andrija Popovic
In article <6fa65o$k...@nntp02.primenet.com>, "Tygger L. Graf"
<gr...@primenet.com> wrote:
> >Jim's ears quiver. "Italian? Count me in!"
>
> >-Jim, not a sushi fan. :)
>
>
> "Italian?! Foodage?" The shifter moves down from her seat in the upper
> tier but moving much slower than usual due to being horridly ill. "Glad to
> see I'm not the only one who don't like sushi. Tried it once, but just
> couldn't do it."
"Careful with anything heavy on filled meats, like peparoni or sausage.
They tend to clause a bit of, um, gunkiness in the throat," he says to
Tygger, rubbing the back of her neck with one hand.
> Settling beside the ermine, her tiger ears perk as she looks over Micole's
> shoulder. "Got anything Mexican? Need something spicey to clear the head
> and lungs."
"Actually, whole garlic cloves are supposed to be good for that..."
> --Tygger
Andrian
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
In article <35181D3B...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> > Most certainly!!! Perhaps a trip the night of the fourth, then we could
> > walk up to the Albany Plaza for that Firework display..
>
> Now, *that* sounds like a plan!
May I quote a certain 15 year MTV Icon? "We're there, dude.." ;)
> > You can't *miss* me.. the guy wearing the white lab coat that *isn't*
> > Uncle Kage.. ;) Grab me *wherever* I am....
>
> Well, Uncle Kage also is known to run around in his labcoat... but I
> think his hair is much shorter than yours. :3
Hehe.. Maybe, Uncle Kage's has his at regulation, so I remember.. I'm a
goddam hippy compared to the military..;)
> > This year I'll have proper badge courtesy of Shawn Reed, my amateurish
> > fiddling with Photoshop. Barring that, look around the Artshow for the
> > rat grinding his teeth...;)
>
> What a plan... do I have time to make Caer Carnivore badges? Hmmmmm!
Do! Do! Do! I have two badges right now that I favor...(excluding my
newest Skorzy one..)
1. A Cthulhu badge for the '98 Worldcon bid committee for Arkham, MA.. "A
Worldcon bid with soul! Yours!"
2. "Village Security Access.. authorized by #2".. hello? Anyone remember
Patrick McGoohan's campy serial from the 60's called "The Prisoner"??? :)
>
> And I'd _better_ be able to locate you in the Artshow... I'm working it
> too! :D
Hehe.. I'll just follow my ears.. listening for the "meeps! meeps!"
amongst the artshow panels.. that'd either be you, Amara or the both,
either way, I won't be disappointed at what I get to watch.. 8)
> ermine (the girl with the long gold hair... just not long enough for
> _me_)
Well..when long hair becomes a walking hazard.. I must disagree with ya'! :)
-Skorzy
--
J. Scott Rogers ** jeff....@ummed.edu **
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <skorzy-2403...@pool-207-205-195-229.wlhm.grid.net>, skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
>In article <3516CA13...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>
>> Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> wrote:
>The rat looks up from his Linux textbook and grins.."I used ta' be one of
>the most vocal on a.f.f.. I wonder if anyone wonders why I never post
>anymore, eh?"
Cause the signal-to-noise ratio's getting too high to stand?
(that's my problem)
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <skorzy-2603...@pool-207-205-195-33.wlhm.grid.net>, skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
>In article <35181D3B...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>2. "Village Security Access.. authorized by #2".. hello? Anyone remember
>Patrick McGoohan's campy serial from the 60's called "The Prisoner"??? :)
Hill waves....
"Certainly do... I've tried to tape the series everytime it comes on,
and keep managing to mess up... :P"
Inspired TV, and too obscure for a lot of folks... ;)
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <skorzy-2303...@pool-207-205-195-34.wlhm.grid.net>, skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
>In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>
>> She opens up a massive picnic basket, sending a delicious aroma across
>> the bleachers. Laying out the cloth and some condiments, she starts
>> placing enamel boton-boxes and other carriable containers onto the
>> cloth.
>
Wasabi!?! Where!?! Where!?!
*thinks of Sushi, and sighs*
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <3516CA13...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>> In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>>
>Atlantic City rolls, Alaskan Rolls, a bunch of tekkamaki and in the
>ice-chest are supplies for some more exotic stuff like Dynamite rolls...
>those are best when made fresh.
Hill Oooooos.....
"I havent seen a California Roll since 'Miss Sakura' closed,
a while back... *sigh*
Lisa Jennings
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> > > walk up to the Albany Plaza for that Firework display..
> > Now, *that* sounds like a plan!
> May I quote a certain 15 year MTV Icon? "We're there, dude.." ;)
We have always been there. :3
> > > You can't *miss* me.. the guy wearing the white lab coat that *isn't*
> > > Uncle Kage.. ;) Grab me *wherever* I am....
> > Well, Uncle Kage also is known to run around in his labcoat... but I
> > think his hair is much shorter than yours. :3
> Hehe.. Maybe, Uncle Kage's has his at regulation, so I remember.. I'm a
> goddam hippy compared to the military..;)
*giggle!*
> > > This year I'll have proper badge courtesy of Shawn Reed, my amateurish
> > > fiddling with Photoshop. Barring that, look around the Artshow for the
> > > rat grinding his teeth...;)
> > What a plan... do I have time to make Caer Carnivore badges? Hmmmmm!
> Do! Do! Do! I have two badges right now that I favor...(excluding my
> newest Skorzy one..)
Well, since we do have the color printer and Ken's got the laminating
system (he sold out of most of his badges at CF9, first time he's tried
this!), I suppose I can throw something together... :3
> 1. A Cthulhu badge for the '98 Worldcon bid committee for Arkham, MA.. "A
> Worldcon bid with soul! Yours!"
>
> 2. "Village Security Access.. authorized by #2".. hello? Anyone remember
> Patrick McGoohan's campy serial from the 60's called "The Prisoner"??? :)
>
> >
> > And I'd _better_ be able to locate you in the Artshow... I'm working it
> > too! :D
> Hehe.. I'll just follow my ears.. listening for the "meeps! meeps!"
> amongst the artshow panels.. that'd either be you, Amara or the both,
> either way, I won't be disappointed at what I get to watch.. 8)
Watch out, it looks like we'll be dragging Mel Skunk into the meeping,
too! :D
> > ermine (the girl with the long gold hair... just not long enough for
> > _me_)
> Well..when long hair becomes a walking hazard.. I must disagree with ya'! :)
I don't want it to be a walking hazard... I just wanted it down to
mid-thigh. That's all. *sigh*
ermine (easiest way to make a lynx tail _I_ know of!)
J. J. Novotny
Lisa Jennings wrote:
> *sigh* I don't even want to get into that... some small part of me was
>
> thinking about adding a page about Techniques to my website (The "What
>
> do I know about Art?" page), and I decided against it.
Actually, I'd like to see that. I wish there was more talk about the
techniques of art on a.f.f.. It's much more entertaining than the flame
wars. What kind of art techniques were you going to talk about?
Materials and such? Perspective? Anatomy? Character creation and design?
Personally, I think the last topic would be fun.
So, hey, go for it, Lisa.
Cheers;
J. J.
Andrija Popovic
In article <skorzy-2603...@pool-207-205-195-33.wlhm.grid.net>,
skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
+snip
> > > This year I'll have proper badge courtesy of Shawn Reed, my amateurish
> > > fiddling with Photoshop. Barring that, look around the Artshow for the
> > > rat grinding his teeth...;)
> >
> > What a plan... do I have time to make Caer Carnivore badges? Hmmmmm!
>
> Do! Do! Do! I have two badges right now that I favor...(excluding my
> newest Skorzy one..)
>
> 1. A Cthulhu badge for the '98 Worldcon bid committee for Arkham, MA.. "A
> Worldcon bid with soul! Yours!"
<chuckle> That's one I'd like to see.
> 2. "Village Security Access.. authorized by #2".. hello? Anyone remember
> Patrick McGoohan's campy serial from the 60's called "The Prisoner"??? :)
The Prisoner is forever etched onto my synapses. Hell, it kept me alive
during the darkest years of school.
> > And I'd _better_ be able to locate you in the Artshow... I'm working it
> > too! :D
>
> Hehe.. I'll just follow my ears.. listening for the "meeps! meeps!"
> amongst the artshow panels.. that'd either be you, Amara or the both,
> either way, I won't be disappointed at what I get to watch.. 8)
"Ten meters..." <MEEP> "Seven meters!" <MEEP><MEEP> "Five meters, they're
in the room, man!" <grin>
> > ermine (the girl with the long gold hair... just not long enough for
> > _me_)
>
> Well..when long hair becomes a walking hazard.. I must disagree with ya'! :)
Though if it's long enough, you can get a lovely Nordic braid.
> -Skorzy
Dale Farmer
Lisa Jennings (Same...@SamePlace.com) wrote:
: Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
: > > Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
: > > > Most certainly!!! Perhaps a trip the night of the fourth, then we could
: > > > walk up to the Albany Plaza for that Firework display..
: > 1. A Cthulhu badge for the '98 Worldcon bid committee for Arkham, MA.. "A
: > Worldcon bid with soul! Yours!"
I want one of those too!
--Dale
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dale Farmer Da...@access.digex.net Personal opinion. Sudbury, Mass.
"Free the ISO 9000!" --Nomi Burstein
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
In article <351ABBB5...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> > Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Well, since we do have the color printer and Ken's got the laminating
> system (he sold out of most of his badges at CF9, first time he's tried
> this!), I suppose I can throw something together... :3
Coooool! :)
> > Hehe.. I'll just follow my ears.. listening for the "meeps! meeps!"
> > amongst the artshow panels.. that'd either be you, Amara or the both,
> > either way, I won't be disappointed at what I get to watch.. 8)
>
> Watch out, it looks like we'll be dragging Mel Skunk into the meeping,
> too! :D
Meep!
Meep!
Meep!
Meep!
Meep!
Meep!
Meep!
Meep!
Meep!
Meep! Meep! Meep! Meep! Meep!
Meep! Meep!
Meep! Meep! Meep! Meep! Meep! Meep! Meep! Meep!
Welcome to MeepCon '98!! Now in TRIPLE STEREO!!! :)
> I don't want it to be a walking hazard... I just wanted it down to
> mid-thigh. That's all. *sigh*
I'll...well.. I'll just be happy if I could have my hair back.. Period! :)
>
> ermine (easiest way to make a lynx tail _I_ know of!)
hehe.. That'd be interesting..
-Skorzy
(Who fully apologizes for the unwarranted, and unnecessary demonstration
of triple stereophonic meepings and fully acknowledges that no one can
fully understand the strange, yet compelling power of Micole's and Amara's
meeping have over men until they witness it first hand.. yet *another*
incentive to go to AAC '98!! :) Natch.. who also has been in an
inordinately good mood the last several days for reasons of his lab
projects finally going smoothly, and the welcomed absence of his
advisor..)
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn
In article <vuk6-27039...@ts003d26.per-md.concentric.net>,
vu...@concentric.net (Andrija Popovic) wrote:
> In article <skorzy-2603...@pool-207-205-195-33.wlhm.grid.net>,
> skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
> The Prisoner is forever etched onto my synapses. Hell, it kept me alive
> during the darkest years of school.
"Questions are a burden, and answers are a prison for oneself.." ;)
> "Ten meters..." <MEEP> "Seven meters!" <MEEP><MEEP> "Five meters, they're
> in the room, man!" <grin>
AUGGGGH! (Meep! Meep!).. "They should be *right* here man!" BOOM! BOOM!
BOOM! "That's it man! Game over man! Game over!" (Meep! Meep! Meep!)
-Skorzy
Doodles
>"I havent seen a California Roll since 'Miss Sakura' closed,
>a while back... *sigh*
Doodles produces a small bun with tye-dyed sesame seeds.
"There you go, dude."
Unca Spooge =};-3
Doodles
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:26:17 -0500, skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com
(Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
>May I quote a certain 15 year MTV Icon? "We're there, dude.." ;)
He's here, he's there, he's everywhere. So beware. =};-3
>Hehe.. Maybe, Uncle Kage's has his at regulation, so I remember.. I'm a
>goddam hippy compared to the military..;)
"Well gollllllleee..."
"Pyle! Keep away from the rat!"
>Do! Do! Do! I have two badges right now that I favor...(excluding my
>newest Skorzy one..)
I keep forgetting to pick up little things like that. Though I _did_
remember to gtet a Furred Reich badge from Blumrich. =};-3
>1. A Cthulhu badge for the '98 Worldcon bid committee for Arkham, MA.. "A
>Worldcon bid with soul! Yours!"
Cheapest Worldcon ever, then.
>2. "Village Security Access.. authorized by #2".. hello? Anyone remember
>Patrick McGoohan's campy serial from the 60's called "The Prisoner"??? :)
Watch out for weather balloons...
>Hehe.. I'll just follow my ears.. listening for the "meeps! meeps!"
>amongst the artshow panels.. that'd either be you, Amara or the both,
>either way, I won't be disappointed at what I get to watch.. 8)
There's another badge for you: The creeping meepies. =};-3
Unca Spooge, who's going to do his damnedest to try to make AAC '98.
Lisa Jennings
Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn wrote:
> In article <vuk6-27039...@ts003d26.per-md.concentric.net>,
> vu...@concentric.net (Andrija Popovic) wrote:
>
> > In article <skorzy-2603...@pool-207-205-195-33.wlhm.grid.net>,
> > during the darkest years of school.
>
> "Questions are a burden, and answers are a prison for oneself.." ;)
>
> > "Ten meters..." <MEEP> "Seven meters!" <MEEP><MEEP> "Five meters, they're
> > in the room, man!" <grin>
>
> AUGGGGH! (Meep! Meep!).. "They should be *right* here man!" BOOM! BOOM!
> BOOM! "That's it man! Game over man! Game over!" (Meep! Meep! Meep!)
There's in the ground, man... they're _in_ the _ground_.....
(tremors 3: terror of the meep.)
ermine
Lisa Jennings
*chuckle* Well, considering that an artist friend was visiting and had
to ask me "Do you plan out the image or does it just come to you?" I was
thinking about doing a "What Do I know about Art?" in this format:
I. Philosophy
a) what is art?
b) where do you start?
c) when did I start drawing?
d) why do I draw?
e) how do ideas come to me?
II. Subject Matter
a) SF versus Fantasy
b) The many facets of Furry
c) Creating a world
III. Technique
a) Research and Tools
b) Structure
c) Illustration
d) A little color
e) The Computer Age
f) Real 3D versus Virtual 3D
I was just going to do it about _me_ with what I know about the subject
from the broader pilosophical bent rather than the nitty-gritty details
on techniques. There are tons of books (You can Draw!) regarding
technique out there, but not to many on the 'how to get in the right
mental mode'.
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <3518904f...@news.primenet.com>, doo...@cheezies.primenet.com (Doodles) wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:22:53 -0500, dool...@uiuc.edu (Jim Doolittle)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <3517d9eb...@news.primenet.com>,
>>doo...@cheezies.primenet.com (Doodles) wrote:
>There's still a little wheat with the chaff.
Damn, little, actually...*sigh*
The actual threads change faster than the subjects lines
tacked onto them, and I keep getting blindsided by napalm...
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <3517CD41...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>> In article <35167A55...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
>Here, here... while I've only been on the internet for 2 years, I've
>been 'hooked in' for more like 12 (with a 4 year hiatus, bleah). I feel
>like a jaded old woman... or a matriarch, take your pick.
a matriarch, for sure....<grin>
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
>wrote:
>>> Andrija Popovic wrote:
>>> >
>"Italian?! Foodage?" The shifter moves down from her seat in the upper
>tier but moving much slower than usual due to being horridly ill. "Glad to
>see I'm not the only one who don't like sushi. Tried it once, but just
>couldn't do it."
>
>shoulder. "Got anything Mexican? Need something spicey to clear the head
>and lungs."
De old grey bear hands Tygger a plateful of goodness he packed
in from 'Aunt Chiladas'....
Try this...it ought to clear your head like it does mine...<grin>
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
Hill giggles!
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <vuk6-27039...@ts003d26.per-md.concentric.net>, vu...@concentric.net (Andrija Popovic) wrote:
>In article <skorzy-2603...@pool-207-205-195-33.wlhm.grid.net>,
>skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
>"Ten meters..." <MEEP> "Seven meters!" <MEEP><MEEP> "Five meters, they're
>in the room, man!" <grin>
What are they, a bunch of MEEPMEEPnics?
(yes, I paraphrased this one from 'The Jetsons')
Andrija Popovic
In article <skorzy-2703...@pool-207-205-195-176.wlhm.grid.net>,
skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
> In article <vuk6-27039...@ts003d26.per-md.concentric.net>,
> vu...@concentric.net (Andrija Popovic) wrote:
>
> > In article <skorzy-2603...@pool-207-205-195-33.wlhm.grid.net>,
> > skorzy@SPAM_REMOVE.mindspring.com (Dr. Skorzy MacFarlaighn) wrote:
>
> > The Prisoner is forever etched onto my synapses. Hell, it kept me alive
> > during the darkest years of school.
>
> "Questions are a burden, and answers are a prison for oneself.." ;)
"A still tongue makes for a happy life." <grin>
> > "Ten meters..." <MEEP> "Seven meters!" <MEEP><MEEP> "Five meters, they're
> > in the room, man!" <grin>
>
> AUGGGGH! (Meep! Meep!).. "They should be *right* here man!" BOOM! BOOM!
> BOOM! "That's it man! Game over man! Game over!" (Meep! Meep! Meep!)
So does this mean at some point a female member of the staff strips to her
underwear and starts charging through the dealer's room with a pulse
rifle/flamethrower combo weapon?
Should that happen, I can see Jim Groat passing out from the unregulated
flow endorphins floding his system.
> -Skorzy
J. J. Novotny
Lisa Jennings wrote:
> (format of discussion snipped for length with reluctance)
>
> I was just going to do it about _me_ with what I know about the
> subject
> from the broader pilosophical bent rather than the nitty-gritty
> details
> on techniques. There are tons of books (You can Draw!) regarding
> technique out there, but not to many on the 'how to get in the right
> mental mode'.
>
Sounds great! I think it would be interesting. ... I think it would be
a lotta work! :) The "why I draw" section should be easy ... isn't every
artist's answer: "because I *have* to"? Good luck, tho'. For me, what
you're talking about is the most interesting part of art -- the act of
creation. It always interests me to look back at the modern art
movements and wonder ... hey, how'd they think of that anyway. (Right
now I'm interested in Orphism: Delaunay, Kupka et. al). Do you plan to
talk about your art in relation to Classicism, Romanticism, etc.. I've
always wanted to get other's opinions on how "big ideas" like that fit
in with furry.
Oh, have you ever read a book called the "Artist's Way". It's pretty
good. I think you'd enjoy it, Lisa.
Cheers;
J. J.
Lisa Jennings
J. J. Novotny wrote:
> Lisa Jennings wrote:
> > (format of discussion snipped for length with reluctance)
> > I was just going to do it about _me_ with what I know about the
> > subject
> > from the broader pilosophical bent rather than the nitty-gritty
> > details
> > on techniques. There are tons of books (You can Draw!) regarding
> > technique out there, but not to many on the 'how to get in the right
> > mental mode'.
> Sounds great! I think it would be interesting. ... I think it would be
> a lotta work! :) The "why I draw" section should be easy ... isn't every
> artist's answer: "because I *have* to"? Good luck, tho'. For me, what
Believe it or not, _no_, not all artists's draw because they _have_ to.
I'm just one of those who does... :3
> you're talking about is the most interesting part of art -- the act of
> creation. It always interests me to look back at the modern art
> movements and wonder ... hey, how'd they think of that anyway. (Right
> now I'm interested in Orphism: Delaunay, Kupka et. al). Do you plan to
> talk about your art in relation to Classicism, Romanticism, etc.. I've
> always wanted to get other's opinions on how "big ideas" like that fit
> in with furry.
Big ideas? Maybe... I've got some gradiose schemes yes. In references to
Schools of Thought, though, I'm not as sure -- partially because I won't
know how much my readership will understand of it.
> Oh, have you ever read a book called the "Artist's Way". It's pretty
> good. I think you'd enjoy it, Lisa.
I've never heard of that book... you got details on it? :3
Lisa Jennings
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer wrote:
> Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> >Andrija Popovic wrote:
> >Here, here... while I've only been on the internet for 2 years, I've
> >been 'hooked in' for more like 12 (with a 4 year hiatus, bleah). I feel
> >like a jaded old woman... or a matriarch, take your pick.
>
> a matriarch, for sure....<grin>
*giggle!* So, what does that make Momma Mel.?
J. J. Novotny
Lisa Jennings wrote:
> Believe it or not, _no_, not all artists's draw because they _have_
> to.
> I'm just one of those who does... :3
::grins:: I think for a lot of artists (of all types), art is so much a
part of their lives that they just don't think about it. It's a part of
who they are, and for many it's the best expression of their innermost
feelings and thoughts.
I believe that someone can certainly learn how to draw, sing, and write
better, but that creativity and artistic feeling are innate -- either
you have that predisposition and tendency or you don't. And if a person
has it, then learning the technique is just that much easier.
> (On the book THE ARTIST'S WAY).
> I've never heard of that book... you got details on it? :3
Certainly. It's by Julia Cameron (published by Putnam) and it's really
for all types of artists. It's mainly geared for folks who have lost
their sense of creativity somewhere along the way but anyone who is
interested in art can benefit from it.
Each chapter is devoted to a different attribute that would help an
artist. Examples include Identity, Integrity, Possibility, Connection,
etc.. It has some interesting exercises to help with this. One of the
most interesting was "reading deprivation" in which the point was to go
for a week without reading in order to focus on physical objects and
away from symbols (such as type). You have *no* idea how hard that was
for me. =^_^=
It's a little overly-mystical at times and sometimes seems a little
self-help oriented but it *is* interesting. Yer library should have a
copy. Every good bookstore certainly will.
Cheers;
J. J.
Joe Rosales
> Lisa Jennings wrote:
> > (format of discussion snipped for length with reluctance)
> > I was just going to do it about _me_ with what I know about the
> > subject from the broader pilosophical bent rather than the nitty-
> > to get in the right mental mode'.
And JJ wrote, and the book "The Artist's Way":
> It's a little overly-mystical at times and sometimes seems a little
> self-help oriented but it *is* interesting.
There's certainly a careful balance between technical skill and pure
instinct, and the best artists are able to use both concurrently. Skill
used without instinct produces flat, dead art, and instinct used without
skill produces Image comics.
As you can access and develop an essentially infinite amount of
technical skill, I've made an effort to try and develop or at least
maintain my instincts also to keep my art looking alive. That is, when
I'm pencilling a page I think of composition, use of blacks, anatomy,
direction of flow, focus of attention, panel-to-impact ratio, and all of
the other technical details; but when I reach a stopping point I just
stare at the page and ask myself, "Is this cool enough? What parts look
boring? If this doesn't make me say "hey," could I do it so it would?"
At least it keeps me from getting bored with my own art, and helps to
remind me what the true point of art is -- because my audience really
doesn't know all that technical stuff, and they'll judge it by how cool
it looks overall and how it makes them feel.
On the other hand... not to cast espersions, but I perceive a serious
lack of technical skill through most of furry fandom. To be fair, I've
had to remind myself over and over that the vast majority of the people
I'm looking at are not serious artists or aspiring professionals but
merely hobbiests and dabblers, and that those are okay things to be.
And there has been a recent improvement in the almost-pro and semi-pro
bullpen that makes up the high end of this field.
However, I think that most of the artists working in the funny
animal/anthro genre could stand to focus more heavily on improving the
technical aspects of their work. I've seen a _lot_ of "artístes"
(particularly at CF) who have been completely overwhelmed by the
'mystical' aspects of their work, who focus narrowly on the deep
personal meaning a piece or character to the exclusion of all technical
considerations. This unfortunately completely subverts their goal of
transmitting that deep and personal meaning to anyone else, as their
artistic talent is insufficent to carry that much information or that
subtle a message.
In my mind, technical skill is your toolbox. If you want to check your
oil, all you really need is a red rag and a dip stick. If you want to
replace your brake shoes yourself you're going to need a hell of a lot
more, including strange little round things with handles that aren't
used for anything else. If you need to replace your rings and stems,
you've got to make sure you're in posession of some serious car-fixing
machinery. There's just no way around it -- you've got to have the
right tool for the right job.
To risk mixing metaphors, there's an awful lot of people in fa/a fandom
in particular who want to build Victorian mansions, but haven't
collected enough tools to build a spice rack -- and don't care! To risk
even further by mentioning names, an absolutely astonishing number of
people have come to Elin at Radio Comix *expecting* to be given a book
of their own, when they've never produced so much as a ten-page
fanzine. They're completely consumed by the mystical, personal
"rightness" of their vision, and the fact that they're unable to
adequately portray it in text or visuals is not an issue or concern.
I think it might be an issue of direction. The best way to train an
artist is, I believe, using the apprentice method (which unfortunately
I've been able to take very little advantage of myself), and there is no
one out there for most of these people to turn to for direction. As for
the other way, the study method: most of fa/a fans eschew superhero
comics, which unfortunately where real technical development is now
achieved and showcased. fa/a comics are just not all that good, and
certainly not as good as the best superhero comics (insert
counter-arguments here, but it's true); but fa/a comics are all these
guys read, so for them that's all that exists, and the level of top
achievement they aspire to is therefore woefully low. If "Xanadu" is
the greatest comic these people have ever read, and "Redwall" the
greatest books, no wonder the field is short on skill.
On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong and they're just overdemanding jerks!
Could be!
-- Joe
Catching colds
My experience isn't what I'd call terribly much, or well rounded.
Back when I aspired to be an electrical engineer, I took a number of
technical drawings and engineering design classes. That was the first
time I'd ever used a pencil that wasn't a #2, and it was pretty neat, I
remembered, accurately tracing things to the proper dimension. Later on
I learned about multiple views and translations and what not.
A few years ago I finnally decided I wanted to learn how to draw for
reals. I'd always been like, doodling little cartoon characters every
now and then, but that's not something serious. I went and took a basic
drawing class, and then later some life drawing classes. It took a while
but I finnally got the hang of it. Right now, if I have a model, and a lot
of time, I can draw something that's at least recognizeable. If I have a
clear image in my head and it's something I've practiced on (I have a few
sketchbooks which are all just a single character design of my own, drawn
over and over and over at different angles in the hopes of getting it down
right) then I can draw it without a model, but I'm not at that stage
where I can say, draw something straight from my head down to the pencil
in my hand. I figure if I can get that down, not all the time, mind
you, but if I can get that far, I might just be something significant.
Right now I'm still at the point of trying to put together everything
I've learned about drawing so far, and see where I can go from there.
I've certainly surprised my father, who had no idea I possed any talent
for drawing. He even went out and got me one of those poseable wooden
models on a stand. Wow. :)
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
*looks puzzled and embaressed*
Beats the heck outta me...
Lisa Jennings
Joe Rosales wrote:
> > Lisa Jennings wrote:
> > > (format of discussion snipped for length with reluctance)
> > > I was just going to do it about _me_ with what I know about the
> > > subject from the broader pilosophical bent rather than the nitty-
> > > gritty details on techniques. There are tons of books (You can
> > > Draw!) regarding technique out there, but not to many on the 'how
> > > to get in the right mental mode'.
> And JJ wrote, and the book "The Artist's Way":
> > It's a little overly-mystical at times and sometimes seems a little
> > self-help oriented but it *is* interesting.
>
> There's certainly a careful balance between technical skill and pure
> instinct, and the best artists are able to use both concurrently. Skill
> used without instinct produces flat, dead art, and instinct used without
> skill produces Image comics.
*snort!* Uhm, good analogy! :D
*snip*
> the other technical details; but when I reach a stopping point I just
> stare at the page and ask myself, "Is this cool enough? What parts look
> boring? If this doesn't make me say "hey," could I do it so it would?"
> At least it keeps me from getting bored with my own art, and helps to
> remind me what the true point of art is -- because my audience really
> doesn't know all that technical stuff, and they'll judge it by how cool
> it looks overall and how it makes them feel.
And as they say in the computer industry, "There comes a time in any
project where you shoot the engineers and start production."
Techniques are fine and dandy -- they are tools to achieve the desired
effect. Technique for technique's sake loses the attentions of the
audience and it's too easy to overdo something just for the sake of
technique. As in everything, moderation is a good thing. :3
> On the other hand... not to cast espersions, but I perceive a serious
> lack of technical skill through most of furry fandom. To be fair, I've
> had to remind myself over and over that the vast majority of the people
> I'm looking at are not serious artists or aspiring professionals but
> merely hobbiests and dabblers, and that those are okay things to be.
> And there has been a recent improvement in the almost-pro and semi-pro
> bullpen that makes up the high end of this field.
To be the devil's advocate, the Fan Art of Japan has a much higher
quality level than here. Why? Well mostly because the society _reveres_
art and encourages everyone to have some artistic talents to allow for
expression. European culture has historically frowned upon the artist:
respecting only the 'masters' and disparaging anyone 'less than worthy',
creating a societal myth that artists have no other useful skills or are
too lazy to hold a more 'productive' job.
The result is that the _philosophy_ of art is only taught to serious art
students and not to _everyone_; that while everyone gets some art
classes in school it's invariably only at the lowest grades and used as
a form of babysitting, not education. This produces a mentality that art
is 'easy' and 'childish' (like the attitudes of animation), that it's
'wierd' to feel the need to draw, and that if you are less than totally
devoted to being an artist there's just no support for you -- heck, even
us 'born to draw' people have had a hard time getting any training! I'm
from a lower-middle class family; too poor to get me into college, too
rich to get financial aids, and my mom was too dumb to see the
scholarships for what they were and instead threw them away telling me
"these are just scams to steal your money because nobody would ever want
you".
One of the big reasons I started the "Anatomy 101" workshop at CF was to
give the hobby artists and aspiring artists a taste of what real art
students get: real world studies to build upon. I note that most furry
artists don't particularly like people, nor do they particualary like to
_draw_ people. Without some skill in drawing from real life humans,
though, they will never understand the 'weight' and proportions that
need to be in a drawing to give it life; anthropomorphic is adding
_human attributes_, and if you can't draw a human you fail in
successfully bringing the anthorporphic character to life.
> However, I think that most of the artists working in the funny
> animal/anthro genre could stand to focus more heavily on improving the
> technical aspects of their work. I've seen a _lot_ of "artístes"
> (particularly at CF) who have been completely overwhelmed by the
> 'mystical' aspects of their work, who focus narrowly on the deep
> personal meaning a piece or character to the exclusion of all technical
> considerations. This unfortunately completely subverts their goal of
> transmitting that deep and personal meaning to anyone else, as their
> artistic talent is insufficent to carry that much information or that
> subtle a message.
Again, I suspect part of that is because they have no technical training
to build from. If you get scared about how bad your person looks, you
start focusing on some other aspect to 'improve' the image without
touching that 'hard part'. A stronger Hands-On track at furry cons would
likely encourage better ameteur art. I know that the images that came
out of my first Anatomy 101 class were _enormously_ improved over their
pre-class images... and that was just one session!
> In my mind, technical skill is your toolbox. If you want to check your
> oil, all you really need is a red rag and a dip stick. If you want to
> replace your brake shoes yourself you're going to need a hell of a lot
> more, including strange little round things with handles that aren't
> used for anything else. If you need to replace your rings and stems,
> you've got to make sure you're in posession of some serious car-fixing
> machinery. There's just no way around it -- you've got to have the
> right tool for the right job.
Agreed, and right now most artists (to keep the car metaphor) have a kit
car with Japanese instruction and a hex-driver as their only tool. They
know what it's supposed to _look_ like, but they have no clue how to get
there. :3
> To risk mixing metaphors, there's an awful lot of people in fa/a fandom
> in particular who want to build Victorian mansions, but haven't
> collected enough tools to build a spice rack -- and don't care! To risk
> even further by mentioning names, an absolutely astonishing number of
> people have come to Elin at Radio Comix *expecting* to be given a book
> of their own, when they've never produced so much as a ten-page
> fanzine. They're completely consumed by the mystical, personal
> "rightness" of their vision, and the fact that they're unable to
> adequately portray it in text or visuals is not an issue or concern.
*SNORT!* There's a _reason_ it's taking me so long to do this piece for
Carol Curtis -- I'm scared silly on screwing it up! :3
Honestly, while I have often thought wistfully of talking to Elin, I
don't consider my technical skills to be ready for sequential art.
Because I don't feel confident, there's no reason for _her_ to feel
confident it would sell, so it's a pointless exercise for either of us
to broach the subject. For all I know, I might succeed; my art may be 3x
better than some of the stuff out there... but I am practical, pragmatic
and realistic as well. I have no delusions that my art would be an
instant best seller (although one could always hope).
Something I've noticed, Joe, and I'm wondering if you can correlate it
with me: a lot of people who parade their art tend to be technically
static or crude; people who underestimate their art tend to be sensitive
to change and improve their work as they never feel it's 'good enough'.
It's like 'if you're confident your art is great, then it ain't.', but
it's more like hubris than sheer confidence because I can be confident
in the fact I _can_ draw but not confident that what I'm drawing is
right.
> I think it might be an issue of direction. The best way to train an
> artist is, I believe, using the apprentice method (which unfortunately
> I've been able to take very little advantage of myself),
Apprenticeship is tricky in this Information Age and subject to the
'schools of thought' problems of the early Renaissance. Some people
think being an apprentice means becoming an aristic clone -- alas, you
usually _can_ tell where the influences come from which leads to these
derogatory situations.
Take Tygger: here's a lady who looked up to Terrie and was helped by
Terrie. Instead of people saying "Wow, another female furry artist!" she
got "You're just being a Terrie-clone" which isn't true!
How about my own situation, being called a "Ken Sample clone" by people
who didn't know I hadn't _heard_ of the man at that time. Both Ken and I
were strongly influenced by Tesuka and that influence shows to this day,
even if Ken was also inspired by Marvel and I don't think our styles
_ever_ had a resemblance.
(Silly side comment: found a website listing 'favorite artists' and the
guy had a sample of my work up with the notation "Lisa Jennings -- Wolf
Kidd in disguise?" Talk about being on the far end of art-styles! He
happened to have grabbed the sole image that Wolf and I worked together
on -- he did the pencils/inks and I did the colors and titles. sheesh!
My style is as close to Wolf's as Michelle Light's is to Donna Barr!)
and there is no
> one out there for most of these people to turn to for direction. As for
> the other way, the study method: most of fa/a fans eschew superhero
> comics, which unfortunately where real technical development is now
> achieved and showcased. fa/a comics are just not all that good, and
> certainly not as good as the best superhero comics (insert
> counter-arguments here, but it's true); but fa/a comics are all these
Counter arguement: superhero comics have been around for 60+ years now,
furry for about 16 (using Omaha as the 'oldest' example). Admittedly
superheros are deformed humans so the artists were usually trained to
draw humans _first_, but there's no reason to think that furry comics in
45 years won't have the same level of competance, given enough incentive
to classically train the artists in the beginning and building Furry
ontop of it. :3
> guys read, so for them that's all that exists, and the level of top
> achievement they aspire to is therefore woefully low. If "Xanadu" is
> the greatest comic these people have ever read, and "Redwall" the
> greatest books, no wonder the field is short on skill.
>
> On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong and they're just overdemanding jerks!
Maybe you're right _and_ they're overdemanding jerks?
Nothing is ever clear-cut. Sorry for the soapbox, guys... I'll hide
among my California Rolls again. :3
MDLight
Lisa wrote:
>(Silly side comment: found a website listing 'favorite artists' and the
>guy had a sample of my work up with the notation "Lisa Jennings -- Wolf
>Kidd in disguise?" Talk about being on the far end of art-styles! He
>happened to have grabbed the sole image that Wolf and I worked together
>on -- he did the pencils/inks and I did the colors and titles. sheesh!
>My style is as close to Wolf's as Michelle Light's is to Donna Barr!)
Heehee! Yep, there is definatly a BIG difference. 8)
Good luck on your project with Carol, I'm sure it will turn out great.
Forever Drawing,
Michele Light
Joe Rosales
Lisa sed, about societal views of art:
> European culture has historically frowned upon the artist:
> respecting only the 'masters' and disparaging anyone 'less than
> worthy', creating a societal myth that artists have no other useful
> skills or are too lazy to hold a more 'productive' job.
As a historically-minded Art Guy, I gotta take issue with that -- that's
a mostly American invention engendered by the advent of postmodernism,
which coincided with the final separation of "real" and "commercial" art
in the 1950s. Postmodernism, and its attendant severe abstractionism,
propigated the image that art was _supposed_ to be nonrational and
inaccessable -- an image that art dealers, critics and gallery owners
encouraged for their own reasons, mostly financial; and that many
artists themselves soon adopted for the same proposes.
The idea of art as nonrational expression was decades old and originally
a valid questioning of the nature of art. James Whistler had been a
proponent of it in the 1920s and '30s, and caused a stir when brought up
on obscenity charges by refusing to attribute any subject matter to any
of his works. No one asks what a symphony is "about," he argued, so why
must paintings or sculptures be "about" something? The colors and
compositions may be enjoyed without the concept of "bridge" or "bird" or
"person" intruding. It is for this reason that the actual title of the
painting often called "Whistler's Mother" is, in fact, "Study in Black
and Gray." No other concept is necessary.
This led to great advancements in the concepts of art, but with the
downside of making it less accessable to the non-artist. By the late
1950s, this line of reasoning had led to artists like Pollack and Warhol
being seen as the true proponents of "fine art" -- sure, it looked like
a bunch of spilled paint and a can of succotash; but once the critics
explained that you weren't *supposed* to get it, it all made sense. So
of course anything that did make sense was not, in fact, fine art.
This was a far cry from earlier days and even centuries, when fine art
and commercial art were essentially the same thing. Maxfield Parrish,
for instance, had been asked in the 1930s (when this schism was just
developing) what the difference between a fine artist and a commercial
artist was. "A commercial artist," he said, "agrees on a price _before_
he does the work." The artist Honoré Daumier, who mastered the art of
lithography, devoted his skills almost entirely to newspapers promoting
the French Revolution; and woodcut artists of the later Victorian era
were rightly considered masters in their own right. Men like Gustave
Doré were considered fine artists *because* they sold their talent to
commercial ventures, producing print sets and illustrated volumes that
brought the great art of the day to the lives of everyday people. Even
the revered Reinassaince masters produced print sets (like Albrecht
Dürer's "Scenes from the Revelations of St. John") that were sold on the
streets to ordinary middle-class art lovers, in addition to running
studios and taking numerous commissions.
All that changed when the idea that fine art could be nonrational became
the idea that fine art *should* be nonrational. Norman Rockwell was for
decades the last person after the advent of postmodernism to be
considered both a fine artist and a commercial artist; the fact that
Picasso could draw with almost photographic quality when he desired and
sold postcards of his works to earn extra cash has been all but
forgotten. And although the public at large quickly figured out that
selling art that didn't look like anything was an easy dupe for lazy
artists and sleazy dealers, there was really nothing they could do about
it -- except make fun of them. The image of the Jules Feiffer-style
beret-wearing con-"artist" was born.
Fortunately, this has been changing recently as "commercial" artists
such as Boris Vallejo and Frank Frazetta gain popularity. The public is
pretty tired of the shell game that gallery owners have been playing for
forty years, and it's getting increasingly hard to deny that even though
they're doing book covers and ads these guys have more talent in
classical media like oils than a dozen Andre Seranos. I live in
constant hope that one day, art will be art again -- no matter how you
sell it.
More info than you ever wanted to know! And still he continues!
Lisa sed:
> if you are less than totally devoted
> to being an artist there's just no support for you -- heck, even
> us 'born to draw' people have had a hard time getting any training!
Not so much just training, I think, as the right _kind_ of training.
Commercial artists, and especially comic book artists, require a special
kind of training in formalized methods, which after the advent of
postmodernism fell violently out of favor. I used to think that it was
only me that had a problem with this -- I couldn't get a single one of
my instructors in college to tell me a 'right' way of doing something,
as they kept arguing that there was no "right" or "wrong" in art. It
was, of course, a typical nonrational argument, which is now the
province of so-called "fine art." Come to find out this is a typical
experience of aspiring comic artists, because comics *is* a formal art
form. Unlike "fine art," comics has rules that must be followed -- the
pages are a standard size; the artwork most often must be pencilled,
then lettered, then inked in flat black and white; and there is
generally some sort of sequential story to be protrayed. This means
that there are some ways of working and portraying that work better than
others, and it is these in which the aspiring graphic artist needs and
desires specialized training and direction. Steve Rude calls this
"yes/no/this is how" training, because those are the responses the
comics artist is looking for -- not soft-soaping about how right and
wrong are limiting concepts to the true artíste. For me, and for Steve
Rude, getting a straight answer about technical technique from these
SoHo bohemian types was like pulling teeth.
And still he continues!
> Something I've noticed, Joe, and I'm wondering if you can correlate
> it with me: a lot of people who parade their art tend to be
> technically static or crude; people who underestimate their art tend
> to be sensitive to change and improve their work as they never feel
> it's 'good enough'. It's like 'if you're confident your art is great,
> then it ain't.', but it's more like hubris than sheer confidence
> because I can be confident in the fact I _can_ draw but not confident
> that what I'm drawing is right.
Boris Vallejo once wrote: "The worst thing that can happen to an artist
is when he begins to believe his own press." I still have trouble
believing that other people pay me for my art. The simple fact is, when
you no longer feel you need to improve, you will no longer try to
improve, and you will not improve.
An incident I will never forget occurred at the San Diego Comic Con. I
was standing in the dealers' room near a table where a couple of artists
were hanging out for the benefit of their publisher and a guy came up to
get comments on his portfolio, particularly on his pencilling. After
they looked at his art a bit one of them said, "Well, you might consider
inking a little more heavily -- "
"I'm just looking for comments on my pencils," the guy said, cutting him
off. "I've pretty much got the whole inking thing figured out."
At this point I actually looked over to see what was going on. And
there is the guy, standing in front of the Dark Horse booth, and one of
the artists staring back at him is Will Stout -- famed dinosaur artist
and one of the greatest inkers in comics today. After a second of
stunned silence, Stout says, "Well, I'm glad _you've_ got it all figured
out. I'm still working on it."
There are many people with the desire to draw and the desire to be good,
but without the desire to work hard or the desire to take criticism. I
take any criticism, no matter how flippant and ill-informed, seriously,
because once I stop considering that I _might_ be wrong I will be unable
to tell if I am right. There is always room for improvment, and there
is always someone better than you -- these are the two basic rules of
competition. Even the gold-medal winners have to train harder for next
year.
About funny animal comics:
> Counter arguement: superhero comics have been around for 60+ years
> now, furry for about 16 (using Omaha as the 'oldest' example).
Bad example. Taking into account Felix the Cat and Mickey Mouse, funny
animal comics predate superhero comics by over ten years and have been a
much more constant presence in the comics market -- but unfortunately
have not benefitted from equally constant development, at least in the
U.S. (Europe is a completely different story.) Carl Barks' influential
work was done in the 1950's and 60's and is still being cobbed off of
today, and it's pretty hard to argue that Pogo was not accepted into the
mainstream.
Even using Omaha as a reference point, you have to give credit to the
guys that Waller was drawing off of -- particularly Gilbert Shelton
Robert Crumb, whose artistic influence is obvious in the earliest Omaha
stories, where Chuck bears a striking resemblance to Fritz the Cat.
Reed, and with much of the "Vootie" crowd, were huge fans of underground
comics, as is apparent from even the most cursory look at the fanzine;
and those comics had been using funny animals far more extensively than
is now remembered. Not just Crumb's Fritz and Shelton's Wonder Warthog
and Fat Freddie's Cat; but Jay Lynch's Nard 'n' Pat and Fontaine Fox,
Bobby London's Dirty Duck, Bill Crawford's Rufus the Reptile, Art
Spiegelman's Maus (which started in "Funny Aminals" [sic] in 1972), Pete
Poplaski's evangelical dinosaurs, John Pound's homicidal rabbit, and
Joel Beck's bizarre stream of Disney parodies and talking beasts. These
were in turn drawn off of newspaper strips like Winsor McCay's Little
Nemo, George Herrimann's Krazy Kat, and Walt Kelly's Pogo, direct
parodies of which show up in underground comics -- and in fact, a parody
of "Lord of the Rings" is done using Pogo characters in an issue of
Vootie concurrent with Waller's contributions!
All in all, this leads me to believe that most of the ignorance about
and poor quality of funny animal/anthro comics and art is self-inflicted
-- the work would be more widely read and accepted if it were simply
better. Art Spiegelman's "Maus" has now won the Pulitzer Prize -- what
does this tell you about the "public perception" of funny animal
comics? Frank Frazetta has no qualms about putting his fa/a art on the
back of his trading cards, and he was working on it in the 50's. Why is
it that a creative power like Carl Barks or Walt Kelly can arise doing
funny animal art and gain wide popularity throughout the US and Europe,
but somehow funny animal art is not seen as selling well today? It
cannot simply be that there is no market for it -- people are as
sympathetic now toward talking animals as characters as they have been
since the Middle Ages. It must, then, be the work itself.
For your homework, read the introduction and first two sections of Boris
Vallejo's "Fantasy Art Techniques," and chapter one of Mark James
Estren's "A History of Underground Comics." Class dismissed!
(*brrrrrrrring!!*)
-- Professor Joe
(Lisa just had a soapbox -- I brought my own lectern...)
Lisa Jennings
Rather than bombard the group with an even _longer_ reply, I will
subdivide this post.. :3
Joe Rosales did lecture:
> Lisa sed, about societal views of art:
> > European culture has historically frowned upon the artist:
> > respecting only the 'masters' and disparaging anyone 'less than
> > worthy', creating a societal myth that artists have no other useful
> > skills or are too lazy to hold a more 'productive' job.
> As a historically-minded Art Guy, I gotta take issue with that -- that's
> a mostly American invention engendered by the advent of postmodernism,
> which coincided with the final separation of "real" and "commercial" art
> in the 1950s. Postmodernism, and its attendant severe abstractionism,
> propigated the image that art was _supposed_ to be nonrational and
> inaccessable -- an image that art dealers, critics and gallery owners
> encouraged for their own reasons, mostly financial; and that many
> artists themselves soon adopted for the same proposes.
*snipping of fascinating data*
I see a discrepancy here... I'm referring to a philosophy about the
_creation_ of art. I may not have the memories of my Historial Art
training in full gear, but I seem to remember that in Europe there had
_always_ been a separation between 'art-as-hobby' and 'artist'. Nobody
paid attention to DaVinci's studies until _long_ after his death -- they
only wanted his paintings, and they argued insessantly over the
'meaning' of Mona Lisa's smile and other trivialities. Artists in the
middle ages _had_ to go through apprenticeship and required a patron to
get anywhere in the world; it wasn't the perview of *anyone* to create
art, you had to be 'chosen'. The entire life of Van Gogh is an example
of the public's view of the artist: useless and strange in life, only
proving value after death when he can't appreciate it. The Fauvist
movement and the Dada Movement were protests against perceptions in what
is Art and who could do it. That's the kind of problems I'm referring
to... just osterization just didn't happen in Japan, where everyone is
taught to paint for meditation and similar expressions in art being a
_good_ thing.
> This was a far cry from earlier days and even centuries, when fine art
> and commercial art were essentially the same thing. Maxfield Parrish,
> for instance, had been asked in the 1930s (when this schism was just
> developing) what the difference between a fine artist and a commercial
> artist was. "A commercial artist," he said, "agrees on a price _before_
> he does the work." The artist Honoré Daumier, who mastered the art of
I agree the split happened between Commercial and Fine art was a bad
thing for both sides.
> brought the great art of the day to the lives of everyday people. Even
> the revered Reinassaince masters produced print sets (like Albrecht
> Dürer's "Scenes from the Revelations of St. John") that were sold on the
> streets to ordinary middle-class art lovers, in addition to running
> studios and taking numerous commissions.
Actually, Albrecht Durer's woodcuts were considered his 'pandering to
the lower classes' at first... again, the societal attitude was split
about what an artist should be doing: Durer created fine art pieces for
the Nobility, and woodcuts for everyone else. Today we acknowedge the
all of his works are Fine Art, but that wasn't the case in the 1500's,
hence the _imfamous_ pick-up phrase "Would you like to see my
etchings?". :3
> All that changed when the idea that fine art could be nonrational became
> the idea that fine art *should* be nonrational. Norman Rockwell was for
> decades the last person after the advent of postmodernism to be
> considered both a fine artist and a commercial artist; the fact that
> Picasso could draw with almost photographic quality when he desired and
> sold postcards of his works to earn extra cash has been all but
> forgotten. And although the public at large quickly figured out that
> selling art that didn't look like anything was an easy dupe for lazy
> artists and sleazy dealers, there was really nothing they could do about
> it -- except make fun of them. The image of the Jules Feiffer-style
> beret-wearing con-"artist" was born.
I know that the advent of the Camera caused the split from
representational art, but the idea of the 'junkfood artist' had cropped
up as soon as a merchant class appeared... when there is money and
leisure available, there is room for art, and there are artists who will
cater to that. I should go dig out my Elizabethan Naughty Broadsides for
you... :3
> Fortunately, this has been changing recently as "commercial" artists
> such as Boris Vallejo and Frank Frazetta gain popularity. The public is
> pretty tired of the shell game that gallery owners have been playing for
> forty years, and it's getting increasingly hard to deny that even though
> they're doing book covers and ads these guys have more talent in
> classical media like oils than a dozen Andre Seranos. I live in
> constant hope that one day, art will be art again -- no matter how you
> sell it.
I agree wholeheartedly... in this day and age there's no nobility to be
a Patron and pay your way through life (although some millionaires would
like to think of themselves as such), so every artist must find a way to
make a buck and still produce _art_ that they can be proud of. I mean,
my dear friend Kelly Freas shouldn't be living the life of a starving
artist that he is currently -- his art inspired a generation to look to
the stars, in spite that the majority of it was for magazines, books,
and record albums.
To be continued....
Lisa Jennings
Regarding training...
Joe Rosales wrote:
> Lisa sed, about societal views of art:
> > if you are less than totally devoted
> > to being an artist there's just no support for you -- heck, even
> > us 'born to draw' people have had a hard time getting any training!
>
> Not so much just training, I think, as the right _kind_ of training.
>
> Commercial artists, and especially comic book artists, require a special
> kind of training in formalized methods, which after the advent of
> postmodernism fell violently out of favor. I used to think that it was
> only me that had a problem with this -- I couldn't get a single one of
> my instructors in college to tell me a 'right' way of doing something,
> as they kept arguing that there was no "right" or "wrong" in art. It
> was, of course, a typical nonrational argument, which is now the
> province of so-called "fine art."
Ooooh, yea, it still hits a sore-spot on me! I started taking night
classes at a local community college to get my Art Degree and had a
Drawing 101 class. The teacher was of Japanese decent and decided he
wanted to teach us in the Old School way: do what I do, do not think for
yourself. Now, most of the night class had middle-aged people, one
junkfood painter who actually wanted to improve his paintings by
learning how to draw the underlayer, and one _real_ student of Art who
just needed the credit so he was chilling in the class... and me, the
sci-fantasy furry type. The teacher took an antagonist view of my work
immediately; not because I couldn't do the techniques, but because _how_
I did the projects was more Graphical (read: commercial) in nature. At
one point the Student actually stood up for me against the Teacher,
pointing out that Graphic Arts are _still_ Art, and that he did _not_
list as a requirement for the project to follow a Fine Art subject
matter (okay, so I did a _robot_ hand holding a rose instead of just my
hand... it's still a _drawing__).
Later he did it again when our assignment was to use markers and draw
people: the teacher planned it for us to be in the cafeteria while a
formal dancing class was going on, expecting us to try using the
fat-and-thin markers (no pencilwork) to draw the dancers. Instead, I
turned around and did minimalist pieces of the students drawing! They
were recognizable (I was proud), but they were definitely graphic rather
than 'fine'....
When I had to delay a project to get my first Faire costume done in time
for Dress Rehearsal, the teacher got annoyed at me and said outloud
"Well, we _all_ have our little problems, don't we?" I was _so_ insensed
by his attitude that the next class I showed up _in_ my Faire costume,
hoopskirt, trimmed bodice and all (it was middle-class) and completely
disrupted the class as everyone gathered around me to ask me technique
questions! He left me alone after that. :D
A different class I took at the same college was entitled "2D Design".
Sounds like a good structural class on design basics, right? Wrong...
this teacher (Mrs. Z) happened to be one of the college's Painting
Instructors and insisted that every project have one component related
to Painting... explain to me how hand-mixing your own browns will help
my illustrations or his architecture or her interior design (Okay, the
last *might* have a reason to learn it)... I rapidly became
dissillusioned that the skills I knew I needed to learn just weren't
_taught_ at the places I thought were most obvious to teach them.
> ....Come to find out this is a typical
> experience of aspiring comic artists, because comics *is* a formal art
> form. Unlike "fine art," comics has rules that must be followed -- the
> pages are a standard size; the artwork most often must be pencilled,
> then lettered, then inked in flat black and white; and there is
> generally some sort of sequential story to be protrayed. This means
> that there are some ways of working and portraying that work better than
> others, and it is these in which the aspiring graphic artist needs and
> desires specialized training and direction.
Agreed. In many ways, graphic arts are more _demanding_ than Fine Arts.
I wanted so much to go to college and take art and _design_ to build the
skills I knew I was missing ... only to find out from friends and
coworkers at the Dreamers Guild that I was better off that I _hadn't_
been able to afford college: places like Art Center get their funds from
companies looking for industrial designers for future applications or
graphical arts for the Advertisement industry, not fine artists or
_illustrators_, so in spite having classes available, the _attitude_ and
how much you actually got out of the classes was really poor.
> ................... Steve Rude calls this
> "yes/no/this is how" training, because those are the responses the
> comics artist is looking for -- not soft-soaping about how right and
> wrong are limiting concepts to the true artíste. For me, and for Steve
> Rude, getting a straight answer about technical technique from these
> SoHo bohemian types was like pulling teeth.
If I had met someone like that after my foray into Community college, I
*would* have pulled teeth... theirs!
Which begs the question: While 'Drawing the Marval Way' demonstrates how
to draw Marval Comics, the first half of the book gives some good basic
lessons for drawing in general. Can't an art/design college or other
institution have a "Sequential Art" track? Something that includes
classes on 2D Design, Layout, Inking, Lettering, BluePencil sketching
and so forth?
(continued...)
Lisa Jennings
Last part!
Joe Rosales, still at his lecturn, wrote:
> Lisa commented about funny animal comics:
> > Counter arguement: superhero comics have been around for 60+ years
> > now, furry for about 16 (using Omaha as the 'oldest' example).
>
> Bad example. Taking into account Felix the Cat and Mickey Mouse, funny
> animal comics predate superhero comics by over ten years and have been a
> much more constant presence in the comics market -- but unfortunately
> have not benefitted from equally constant development, at least in the
> U.S. (Europe is a completely different story.) Carl Barks' influential
> work was done in the 1950's and 60's and is still being cobbed off of
> today, and it's pretty hard to argue that Pogo was not accepted into the
> mainstream.
Okay, it _was_ a bad example as I was specifically looking at the
subgenre of Furry Fandom comics rather than Funny Animal comics as a
whole... while I wouldn't stick Felix in the same class as Omaha, the
people listed below I _would_....
> Even using Omaha as a reference point, you have to give credit to the
> guys that Waller was drawing off of -- particularly Gilbert Shelton
> Robert Crumb, whose artistic influence is obvious in the earliest Omaha
> stories, where Chuck bears a striking resemblance to Fritz the Cat.
> Reed, and with much of the "Vootie" crowd, were huge fans of underground
> comics, as is apparent from even the most cursory look at the fanzine;
I never saw Vootie. No, really!
> and those comics had been using funny animals far more extensively than
> is now remembered. Not just Crumb's Fritz and Shelton's Wonder Warthog
> and Fat Freddie's Cat; but Jay Lynch's Nard 'n' Pat and Fontaine Fox,
> Bobby London's Dirty Duck, Bill Crawford's Rufus the Reptile, Art
> Spiegelman's Maus (which started in "Funny Aminals" [sic] in 1972), Pete
> Poplaski's evangelical dinosaurs, John Pound's homicidal rabbit, and
> Joel Beck's bizarre stream of Disney parodies and talking beasts. These
> were in turn drawn off of newspaper strips like Winsor McCay's Little
> Nemo, George Herrimann's Krazy Kat, and Walt Kelly's Pogo, direct
> parodies of which show up in underground comics -- and in fact, a parody
> of "Lord of the Rings" is done using Pogo characters in an issue of
> Vootie concurrent with Waller's contributions!
Again, I never saw Vootie, just heard a lot about it from Reed. As a
point in fact, Omaha was the first _comic book_ I ever read: I was a
deprived child who never got comics outside of the Sunday Paper and even
the Disney stuff was only in movie format... I knew _of_ Marvel and DC
only when I hit my mid teens and was too busy with a dying father and
learning about relationships to really explore that reading venue.
> All in all, this leads me to believe that most of the ignorance about
> and poor quality of funny animal/anthro comics and art is self-inflicted
I have to agree in general, but I still think it's because the genre of
"anthro" is young, even if drawing Funny Animals in a comic format is
not: Pogo would fall into the Furry Fandom's definitions _now_, but at
the time it wasn't considered anything more than COMICS or Political
Satire. By thrusting out the science-fiction aspect as worlds of furries
(like Albedo, Katmandu, Rrudupurrt, Xanadu, Fusion) it defines itself as
being more separate a character than the classic social satire. Likely
that's one reason why Usagi Yojimbo does so well: perhaps the 'industry'
sees it in the same light as 'Pogo' as using funny animals as a
metaphor. The latest run of Japanese Mythos in "Usagi" doesn't hurt,
either... :3
> -- the work would be more widely read and accepted if it were simply
> better. Art Spiegelman's "Maus" has now won the Pulitzer Prize -- what
> does this tell you about the "public perception" of funny animal
> comics? Frank Frazetta has no qualms about putting his fa/a art on the
See above: Everyone acknowledges that "Maus" is biographical and using
the animals as metaphor. While I have no problems with this, I think the
public perceptions of it is _different_ to the other 'furry comics',
essentially treating "Maus" as a graphical equivalent of "Animal Farm",
which also was heavily metaphorical. They aren't seeing the 'animals'
_as_ 'animals_.
> back of his trading cards, and he was working on it in the 50's. Why is
> it that a creative power like Carl Barks or Walt Kelly can arise doing
> funny animal art and gain wide popularity throughout the US and Europe,
> but somehow funny animal art is not seen as selling well today? It
The fact that they can draw things _other_ than furry/funny animals? The
fact that they are technically _competant_? The fact that they are
_storytellers_ who bring a story to life with their art rather than be a
sideline to the written plot?
As to 'funny animal art not seen as selling well today'; since you added
classic funny animals to the discussion I will point out that Disney
isn't hurting, that the Warner Brothers cartoons and side paraphanalia
are still going strong, that cell-art (both production and sericel
custom art) have become a recognizable 'collectable' and 'fine art', and
that Kitchen Sink still has steady sales in reprinting classic "Sunday
Funnies" (from what I last heard, at least).
Now, as a caveat to all the above, I will note that none of Disney's
_latest_ works aside from the Lion King have had 'expected' interest,
that Warner Brothers has depended heavily on Speilburg's insanity to
create 'new classics' and they meanwhile continue to push on their
family of characters that hasn't changed much in 30 years (that later
characters are less successful and 'recognized' than the Core group that
has been around more like 50 years), and that Kitchen Sink's 'classic
line' is exactly that, comics that have been out of print for a
generation. So, what's happened that the developement of meaningful
funny animals that catch the American Eye has become stilted? Why all
the nostalgia and no _progress_? Is this perhaps related to the furry
comic situation?
> cannot simply be that there is no market for it -- people are as
> sympathetic now toward talking animals as characters as they have been
> since the Middle Ages. It must, then, be the work itself.
A minor correction: try since Ancient Times (Aesop's fables, after
all...) :3
> For your homework, read the introduction and first two sections of Boris
> Vallejo's "Fantasy Art Techniques," and chapter one of Mark James
> Estren's "A History of Underground Comics." Class dismissed!
> (*brrrrrrrring!!*)
If I knew where to buy them, I'd love to get copies... my library is
heavy in Astronomy and light on "the science of Art"... heck, I can't
even find my copy of "Understanding Comics" anymore! Yipes!
> (Lisa just had a soapbox -- I brought my own lectern...)
Why can't we have _these_ kinds of discussions on alt.artwork.discuss?
:3
Heck, why can't we have these kinds of discussions on alt.fan.furry??
ermine (returning to her seat so Joe can return to the lectern...) :3
[Undo the Knot to Reply]
Lisa Jennings
Andrija Popovic wrote:
> In article <352273F2...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > > On the other hand... not to cast espersions, but I perceive a serious
> > > lack of technical skill through most of furry fandom. To be fair, I've
> > > had to remind myself over and over that the vast majority of the people
> > > I'm looking at are not serious artists or aspiring professionals but
> > > merely hobbiests and dabblers, and that those are okay things to be.
> > > And there has been a recent improvement in the almost-pro and semi-pro
> > > bullpen that makes up the high end of this field.
> >
> > To be the devil's advocate, the Fan Art of Japan has a much higher
> > quality level than here. Why? Well mostly because the society _reveres_
> > art and encourages everyone to have some artistic talents to allow for
> > expression. European culture has historically frowned upon the artist:
> > respecting only the 'masters' and disparaging anyone 'less than worthy',
> > creating a societal myth that artists have no other useful skills or are
> > too lazy to hold a more 'productive' job.
Uhm, I seem to remember a 16th Century emperor commanding _everyone_ to
do art. I should find his name.....
> Um, I hate to jump in like this but the reason there's so much techical
> adeptness in the dojinshi market is not because Japan encouages this art
> form. Frankly, manga's not considered art but a form of mass market
> entertainment. Japanese culture, especially in it's current encarnation,
> does not consider manga art a productive activity.
>
> The main reason the art is so good is that Japanese culture encourages a
> drive to perfection even in the practice of hobby. From model building to
> stero building to drawing dojinshi, people throw themselves whole-hock
> into their hobbies to escape the grind of modern life. It's a matter of
> dedication, truthfully, not societal encouragement.
Again, dedication is what? If the society states dedication is a virtue
to be honored, then everyone will strive to be dedicated... Japanese
don't have the burden of the "Quaker Work Ethic" that the US is still
struggling under, that leisure of _any form_ is 'sinful' -- therefore,
the society thinks the only measure of success is based on work:
financial success, recognition of one's work through commericalism, etc.
As a point-counterpoint note, historically Japanese have _not_ been good
at initial creative sparks, and have always frowned upon individualism.
But they are _very_ good at refining and improving upon existing work,
even if the original work was mostly a rough, because it is building
upon a foundation, as families build upon their ancestors heritage. On
the other side of the Pacific, the US has historically exalted
individualism and creativity (the maverick and the inventor) to the
point that it's hard to share new ideas among the people who could
improve and refine the idea for fear of 'stealing' this new concept and
taking all the glory/profit/value away from the creator. So, some of the
best-danged things in the world have been seeded by American wild-ideas
and taken by the Japanese to be far better than anything the Americans
would've initially conceived.
The society creates the mindset that ultimate affects the priorities and
values the society wishes to accentuate.
> > The result is that the _philosophy_ of art is only taught to serious art
> > students and not to _everyone_; that while everyone gets some art
> > classes in school it's invariably only at the lowest grades and used as
> > a form of babysitting, not education.
> I'd like to inject that anyone who wants to learn art later in life also
> has a few other problems to overcome. Aside from the philosophy that art
> is some mystical gift and if you don't have it, don't bother, most classes
> don't encourage people to actually grow in their art. They give you a few
> steps to follow, and a few techniques, but no real encouragement.
Agreed... I've seen tons of 'learn to draw' books out there that always
felt 'wrong' to me, that they were just methods for tracing existing
things and not real building blocks for internal construction of new
things. All the junkfood painter programs on cable (how to oil-paint a
mountain landscape in under 20 minutes.. bleah.) without any instruction
how to _think_ of the ideas to put on the canvas, how to liven the
canvas with a personal touch -- it all becomes the same 'scalpel-knife'
trees and 'spatula' snow, cookie-cutter art without any soul.
> +snip I'm
> > from a lower-middle class family; too poor to get me into college, too
> > rich to get financial aids, and my mom was too dumb to see the
> > scholarships for what they were and instead threw them away telling me
> > "these are just scams to steal your money because nobody would ever want
> > you".
>
> <sigh> I wish this was uncommon, but I know a lot of familys that
> discourage their childrens' talents if they don't fit into the
> mainstream. I'm glad they my family was blissfuly unaware of my interest
> in writing. They and several teachers already convinced me that art and
> music were wastes of time for someone as unfocused as I.
Tell me about it. Pat Ortega, one of the finest hyper-realistic painters
I know (personally as well as by her art) has a family that still thinks
her art is a gift of the Devil. They harp on her to stop painting
canvases that go for thouseands of dollars at museums and go find a nice
Nicaraguan boy and get pregnant and take care of him... At one point her
sister showed up with a niece, and _somehow_ the 5-year-old neice got
into the _locked_ studio, found some oilpaints and played picasso on the
$11K guasche painting for a New York gallery, and all the sister said
was "My poor baby, getting that stuff on your hands." !! All of Pat's
friends rejoiced when she got her own place and moved _far_ away from
her family... she's doing smilodon studies with the Los Angeles Museum
of Natural History right now. :3
> > One of the big reasons I started the "Anatomy 101" workshop at CF was to
> > give the hobby artists and aspiring artists a taste of what real art
> > students get: real world studies to build upon.
> With no cost and at a convenient time! That's another thing: These classes
> are hideously expensive, even if they're at a local community art center.
> Most of them are in the evening, right after work. I had a class on Friday
> night and frankly the work I did during it was substandard compared to the
> work I did in a previous class, that was simply scheduled at a more
> convenient time.
Yup! I was even nice to the artists... each model held their pose for 10
minutes! I know many a workshop that does 30-second sets to force the
artist to stop looking at the paper and draw _what they see_, releasing
the mind from building structure until later...
> > > In my mind, technical skill is your toolbox. If you want to check your
> > > oil, all you really need is a red rag and a dip stick. If you want to
> > > replace your brake shoes yourself you're going to need a hell of a lot
> > > more, including strange little round things with handles that aren't
> > > used for anything else. If you need to replace your rings and stems,
> > > you've got to make sure you're in posession of some serious car-fixing
> > > machinery. There's just no way around it -- you've got to have the
> > > right tool for the right job.
> > Agreed, and right now most artists (to keep the car metaphor) have a kit
> > car with Japanese instruction and a hex-driver as their only tool. They
> > know what it's supposed to _look_ like, but they have no clue how to get
> > there. :3
>
> And when it doesn't look like, on, one of your pictures they give up and
> lock their things away. There's also no encouragement to make mistakes and
> grow. Expectations are damn high thanks to the quality of art out there,
> even if it's unspoken.
Yup. *sigh*
> > > To risk mixing metaphors, there's an awful lot of people in fa/a fandom
> > > in particular who want to build Victorian mansions, but haven't
> > > collected enough tools to build a spice rack -- and don't care! To risk
> > > even further by mentioning names, an absolutely astonishing number of
> > > people have come to Elin at Radio Comix *expecting* to be given a book
> > > of their own, when they've never produced so much as a ten-page
> > > fanzine. They're completely consumed by the mystical, personal
> > > "rightness" of their vision, and the fact that they're unable to
> > > adequately portray it in text or visuals is not an issue or concern.
> >
> > *SNORT!* There's a _reason_ it's taking me so long to do this piece for
> > Carol Curtis -- I'm scared silly on screwing it up! :3
>
> <smile> Welcome to my world.
Hey, I didn't say I wasn't warned about this...
I used to joke to Laura and Kelly Freas about not wanting to depend on
my art for a living (I'm keeping it a hobby, thank you!) and one con
they found me in the dealers den selling my art... Kelly waggled his
cane at me saying "I warned you!" and we talked about being 'starving
artists'. This is the reason I'll never leave the computer industry as a
career -- it's stable income! :3
Allen Kitchen
Joe Rosales <joea...@stic.net> wrote in article
<352387...@stic.net>...
> The idea of art as nonrational expression was decades old and originally
> a valid questioning of the nature of art. James Whistler had been a
> proponent of it in the 1920s and '30s, and caused a stir when brought up
> on obscenity charges by refusing to attribute any subject matter to any
> of his works. No one asks what a symphony is "about," he argued, so why
> must paintings or sculptures be "about" something? The colors and
> compositions may be enjoyed without the concept of "bridge" or "bird" or
> "person" intruding. It is for this reason that the actual title of the
> painting often called "Whistler's Mother" is, in fact, "Study in Black
> and Gray." No other concept is necessary.
This is news to me, being the non-graphic-type-artist that I am.
What happened with the charges? And how did folks make the
leap from "What is it?" to "obscene" in the first place?
> This led to great advancements in the concepts of art, but with the
> downside of making it less accessable to the non-artist. By the late
> 1950s, this line of reasoning had led to artists like Pollack and Warhol
> being seen as the true proponents of "fine art" -- sure, it looked like
> a bunch of spilled paint and a can of succotash; but once the critics
> explained that you weren't *supposed* to get it, it all made sense. So
> of course anything that did make sense was not, in fact, fine art.
Uh, this doesn't make sense :) Perhaps you should get a grant Joe.
All I can say is, I don't know if it is art or not. But I know what I
like!
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Jim Doolittle
In article <352387...@stic.net>, Joe Rosales <joea...@stic.net> wrote:
First, let it be said that I actually read most of this, and found it
rather interesting. ;)
> better. Art Spiegelman's "Maus" has now won the Pulitzer Prize -- what
> does this tell you about the "public perception" of funny animal
> comics? Frank Frazetta has no qualms about putting his fa/a art on the
This is my one little question. I've heard references to Maus before and
it's piqued my interest...where can I find a copy of it? And, possibly
more important, if I do manage to find a copy, how much will it cost? :)
-Jim
Andrija Popovic
In article <352273F2...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > On the other hand... not to cast espersions, but I perceive a serious
> > lack of technical skill through most of furry fandom. To be fair, I've
> > had to remind myself over and over that the vast majority of the people
> > I'm looking at are not serious artists or aspiring professionals but
> > merely hobbiests and dabblers, and that those are okay things to be.
> > And there has been a recent improvement in the almost-pro and semi-pro
> > bullpen that makes up the high end of this field.
>
> To be the devil's advocate, the Fan Art of Japan has a much higher
> quality level than here. Why? Well mostly because the society _reveres_
> art and encourages everyone to have some artistic talents to allow for
> expression. European culture has historically frowned upon the artist:
> respecting only the 'masters' and disparaging anyone 'less than worthy',
> creating a societal myth that artists have no other useful skills or are
> too lazy to hold a more 'productive' job.
Um, I hate to jump in like this but the reason there's so much techical
adeptness in the dojinshi market is not because Japan encouages this art
form. Frankly, manga's not considered art but a form of mass market
entertainment. Japanese culture, especially in it's current encarnation,
does not consider manga art a productive activity.
The main reason the art is so good is that Japanese culture encourages a
drive to perfection even in the practice of hobby. From model building to
stero building to drawing dojinshi, people throw themselves whole-hock
into their hobbies to escape the grind of modern life. It's a matter of
dedication, truthfully, not societal encouragement.
> The result is that the _philosophy_ of art is only taught to serious art
> students and not to _everyone_; that while everyone gets some art
> classes in school it's invariably only at the lowest grades and used as
> a form of babysitting, not education.
I'd like to inject that anyone who wants to learn art later in life also
has a few other problems to overcome. Aside from the philosophy that art
is some mystical gift and if you don't have it, don't bother, most classes
don't encourage people to actually grow in their art. They give you a few
steps to follow, and a few techniques, but no real encouragement.
+snip I'm
> from a lower-middle class family; too poor to get me into college, too
> rich to get financial aids, and my mom was too dumb to see the
> scholarships for what they were and instead threw them away telling me
> "these are just scams to steal your money because nobody would ever want
> you".
<sigh> I wish this was uncommon, but I know a lot of familys that
discourage their childrens' talents if they don't fit into the
mainstream. I'm glad they my family was blissfuly unaware of my interest
in writing. They and several teachers already convinced me that art and
music were wastes of time for someone as unfocused as I.
> One of the big reasons I started the "Anatomy 101" workshop at CF was to
> give the hobby artists and aspiring artists a taste of what real art
> students get: real world studies to build upon.
With no cost and at a convenient time! That's another thing: These classes
are hideously expensive, even if they're at a local community art center.
Most of them are in the evening, right after work. I had a class on Friday
night and frankly the work I did during it was substandard compared to the
work I did in a previous class, that was simply scheduled at a more
convenient time.
+snip
> > In my mind, technical skill is your toolbox. If you want to check your
> > oil, all you really need is a red rag and a dip stick. If you want to
> > replace your brake shoes yourself you're going to need a hell of a lot
> > more, including strange little round things with handles that aren't
> > used for anything else. If you need to replace your rings and stems,
> > you've got to make sure you're in posession of some serious car-fixing
> > machinery. There's just no way around it -- you've got to have the
> > right tool for the right job.
>
> Agreed, and right now most artists (to keep the car metaphor) have a kit
> car with Japanese instruction and a hex-driver as their only tool. They
> know what it's supposed to _look_ like, but they have no clue how to get
> there. :3
And when it doesn't look like, on, one of your pictures they give up and
lock their things away. There's also no encouragement to make mistakes and
grow. Expectations are damn high thanks to the quality of art out there,
even if it's unspoken.
> > To risk mixing metaphors, there's an awful lot of people in fa/a fandom
> > in particular who want to build Victorian mansions, but haven't
> > collected enough tools to build a spice rack -- and don't care! To risk
> > even further by mentioning names, an absolutely astonishing number of
> > people have come to Elin at Radio Comix *expecting* to be given a book
> > of their own, when they've never produced so much as a ten-page
> > fanzine. They're completely consumed by the mystical, personal
> > "rightness" of their vision, and the fact that they're unable to
> > adequately portray it in text or visuals is not an issue or concern.
>
> *SNORT!* There's a _reason_ it's taking me so long to do this piece for
> Carol Curtis -- I'm scared silly on screwing it up! :3
<smile> Welcome to my world.
+snip
> ermine
> [Undo the Knot to Reply.]
--
Andrija Popovic
In article <3523E951...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> Andrija Popovic wrote:
> > In article <352273F2...@SamePlace.com>, Khr...@KnotInOrbit.com wrote:
> > > > On the other hand... not to cast espersions, but I perceive a serious
> > > > lack of technical skill through most of furry fandom. To be fair, I've
> > > > had to remind myself over and over that the vast majority of the people
> > > > I'm looking at are not serious artists or aspiring professionals but
> > > > merely hobbiests and dabblers, and that those are okay things to be.
> > > > And there has been a recent improvement in the almost-pro and semi-pro
> > > > bullpen that makes up the high end of this field.
> > >
> > > To be the devil's advocate, the Fan Art of Japan has a much higher
> > > quality level than here. Why? Well mostly because the society _reveres_
> > > art and encourages everyone to have some artistic talents to allow for
> > > expression. European culture has historically frowned upon the artist:
> > > respecting only the 'masters' and disparaging anyone 'less than worthy',
> > > creating a societal myth that artists have no other useful skills or are
> > > too lazy to hold a more 'productive' job.
>
> Uhm, I seem to remember a 16th Century emperor commanding _everyone_ to
> do art. I should find his name.....
Oh, you're replying to yourself. I was wondering if I'd written that. ^_^
> > Um, I hate to jump in like this but the reason there's so much techical
> > adeptness in the dojinshi market is not because Japan encouages this art
> > form. Frankly, manga's not considered art but a form of mass market
> > entertainment. Japanese culture, especially in it's current encarnation,
> > does not consider manga art a productive activity.
> >
> > The main reason the art is so good is that Japanese culture encourages a
> > drive to perfection even in the practice of hobby. From model building to
> > stero building to drawing dojinshi, people throw themselves whole-hock
> > into their hobbies to escape the grind of modern life. It's a matter of
> > dedication, truthfully, not societal encouragement.
>
> Again, dedication is what? If the society states dedication is a virtue
> to be honored, then everyone will strive to be dedicated... Japanese
> don't have the burden of the "Quaker Work Ethic" that the US is still
> struggling under, that leisure of _any form_ is 'sinful' -- therefore,
> the society thinks the only measure of success is based on work:
> financial success, recognition of one's work through commericalism, etc.
No, they have the burden of another work ethic that is, in many ways, far
more puritan than ours. Drawing comics and building modles is acceptable
for a teenager in Japan. Most of the Dojinshi artists are in their teens.
However, when they pass their exams they're expected to focus on a real
career.
Manga artist isn't considered a real career in Japan, even though it is a
massive industry. Look at our daily comics. How many families would be
overjoyed to hear their son says, "I want to be the next Gary Larson and
forget about med school?" It's the same feeling over there.
> As a point-counterpoint note, historically Japanese have _not_ been good
> at initial creative sparks, and have always frowned upon individualism.
> But they are _very_ good at refining and improving upon existing work,
> even if the original work was mostly a rough, because it is building
> upon a foundation, as families build upon their ancestors heritage.
I can't argue with that. Even today, agressive, individualistic posturing
is frowned upon.
On
> the other side of the Pacific, the US has historically exalted
> individualism and creativity (the maverick and the inventor) to the
> point that it's hard to share new ideas among the people who could
> improve and refine the idea for fear of 'stealing' this new concept and
> taking all the glory/profit/value away from the creator. So, some of the
> best-danged things in the world have been seeded by American wild-ideas
> and taken by the Japanese to be far better than anything the Americans
> would've initially conceived.
There, again, I agree with you. Historically, the Japanese have excelled
at adapting and abosorbing outside ideas while making them uniquely
Japanese. This began with Chinese philosophy and has continued to today.
> The society creates the mindset that ultimate affects the priorities and
> values the society wishes to accentuate.
Where I disagree with you is that the Japanese mindset is a to value and
encourage artistic expression, which is what I read into your post
(correct me if I misread the post!). They value hard work and a drive to
perfection, but they'd rather see it directed to things other than drawing
manga comics. Manga's original meaning is 'irresponsible pictures' after
all. :)
> > > The result is that the _philosophy_ of art is only taught to serious art
> > > students and not to _everyone_; that while everyone gets some art
> > > classes in school it's invariably only at the lowest grades and used as
> > > a form of babysitting, not education.
> > I'd like to inject that anyone who wants to learn art later in life also
> > has a few other problems to overcome. Aside from the philosophy that art
> > is some mystical gift and if you don't have it, don't bother, most classes
> > don't encourage people to actually grow in their art. They give you a few
> > steps to follow, and a few techniques, but no real encouragement.
>
> Agreed... I've seen tons of 'learn to draw' books out there that always
> felt 'wrong' to me, that they were just methods for tracing existing
> things and not real building blocks for internal construction of new
> things.
All of them are centered around teaching you how to copy reaity, too. I've
only found ONE book that talks about learnign to draw from imagination
alone.
All the junkfood painter programs on cable (how to oil-paint a
> mountain landscape in under 20 minutes.. bleah.) without any instruction
> how to _think_ of the ideas to put on the canvas, how to liven the
> canvas with a personal touch -- it all becomes the same 'scalpel-knife'
> trees and 'spatula' snow, cookie-cutter art without any soul.
<grin. I always watched Bob Ross to fall asleep to his voice. "Happy
little trees..."
> > +snip I'm
> > > from a lower-middle class family; too poor to get me into college, too
> > > rich to get financial aids, and my mom was too dumb to see the
> > > scholarships for what they were and instead threw them away telling me
> > > "these are just scams to steal your money because nobody would ever want
> > > you".
> >
> > <sigh> I wish this was uncommon, but I know a lot of familys that
> > discourage their childrens' talents if they don't fit into the
> > mainstream. I'm glad they my family was blissfuly unaware of my interest
> > in writing. They and several teachers already convinced me that art and
> > music were wastes of time for someone as unfocused as I.
>
> Tell me about it. Pat Ortega, one of the finest hyper-realistic painters
> I know (personally as well as by her art) has a family that still thinks
> her art is a gift of the Devil.
Excuse me???
They harp on her to stop painting
> canvases that go for thouseands of dollars at museums and go find a nice
> Nicaraguan boy and get pregnant and take care of him... At one point her
> sister showed up with a niece, and _somehow_ the 5-year-old neice got
> into the _locked_ studio, found some oilpaints and played picasso on the
> $11K guasche painting for a New York gallery, and all the sister said
> was "My poor baby, getting that stuff on your hands." !! All of Pat's
> friends rejoiced when she got her own place and moved _far_ away from
> her family... she's doing smilodon studies with the Los Angeles Museum
> of Natural History right now. :3
When I hear stories like this, there is narry a font or point size that
can accurately simulate the disparaging 'sigh' I let out, IRL.
> > With no cost and at a convenient time! That's another thing: These classes
> > are hideously expensive, even if they're at a local community art center.
> > Most of them are in the evening, right after work. I had a class on Friday
> > night and frankly the work I did during it was substandard compared to the
> > work I did in a previous class, that was simply scheduled at a more
> > convenient time.
>
> Yup! I was even nice to the artists... each model held their pose for 10
> minutes! I know many a workshop that does 30-second sets to force the
> artist to stop looking at the paper and draw _what they see_, releasing
> the mind from building structure until later...
I usually use my wrist as a good measurment for when to stop drawing a
figure sketch. If my wrist hurts, it's time to stop.
> > > Agreed, and right now most artists (to keep the car metaphor) have a kit
> > > car with Japanese instruction and a hex-driver as their only tool. They
> > > know what it's supposed to _look_ like, but they have no clue how to get
> > > there. :3
> >
> > And when it doesn't look like, on, one of your pictures they give up and
> > lock their things away. There's also no encouragement to make mistakes and
> > grow. Expectations are damn high thanks to the quality of art out there,
> > even if it's unspoken.
>
> Yup. *sigh*
I had two art teachers recently. One was wonderful. She just bubbled with
excitement and it infected us all. I couldn't wait until my next class
with her. The other seemed to just be there. No real encouragement, no
sense of fun. Certainly no sympathy for beltway traffic on a friday night.
> > > *SNORT!* There's a _reason_ it's taking me so long to do this piece for
> > > Carol Curtis -- I'm scared silly on screwing it up! :3
> >
> > <smile> Welcome to my world.
>
> Hey, I didn't say I wasn't warned about this...
>
> I used to joke to Laura and Kelly Freas about not wanting to depend on
> my art for a living (I'm keeping it a hobby, thank you!) and one con
> they found me in the dealers den selling my art... Kelly waggled his
> cane at me saying "I warned you!" and we talked about being 'starving
> artists'. This is the reason I'll never leave the computer industry as a
> career -- it's stable income! :3
It's the same for me and my writing, though recently people have been
nudging me to get something published in a zine or anywhere... I keep
saying, "I'm just a writer, not an author. I want a nice, stable job where
I get benefits and a salery above the poverty line."
> ermine
Andrian
J. J. Novotny
Joe Rosales wrote:
(lots of great stuff snipped for length. Sorry.)
> This led to great advancements in the concepts of art, but with the
> downside of making it less accessable to the non-artist. By the late
> 1950s, this line of reasoning had led to artists like Pollack and
> Warhol
> being seen as the true proponents of "fine art" -- sure, it looked
> like
> a bunch of spilled paint and a can of succotash; but once the critics
> explained that you weren't *supposed* to get it, it all made sense.
> So
> of course anything that did make sense was not, in fact, fine art.
>
Good point, although this schism goes back even further than that. Heh,
now it's *my* turn to talk about Art History. =^_^= As I tried to say on
another thread, thought and feeling and meaning and form used to be
united in works of art as late as the 19th Century. But since that time
"high art" has increasingly become two separate streams. First, there is
the "art as colour and form" school which took the works of Monet and
Cezanne as its impetus and moved off into Fauvism, Orphism, Abstract
Expressionism, and the various colour theory and Geometric exercises
(like "Voice of Fire" ... shudder). These were said to have no meaning
and were strictly about expressing emotion, or vague mystical states
through the act of painting.
On the other hand, there is the stream of logical,
intellectually-oriented art that started from Toulouse-Lautrec and
Seurat (both of whom I *love* BTW) and moved on through Cubism, Dada,
Futurism, Surrealism, Pop Art, and the current spate of postmodern
installations and performance art (Again ... shudder). In this case, the
idea is paramount and the whole objective is to do more and more
original and outrageous things. Execution is often neglected, especially
recently.
Of course, both these trends offered some original and exciting ideas.
Don't get me wrong; there was excellent art created as a result of these
innovations (I've been enthralled by Andre Derain recently). It helped
that the fore-runners of these movements were usually
technically-excellent artists. (i.e. Picasso and Kupka). In the last
30-40 years tho', it has become a bit of a shell game, and no longer
means much.
The academics in the art world have definitely sided with these new
streams of art, especially the form and colour path. A whole generation
of critics grew up lauding these colour field exercises, often done by
people who couldn't even draw (Stella comes to mind). The critics
downgraded a lot of art that had been admired before. The neo-classical
artists associated with the academic tradition were particularly badly
manhandled. Bourgereau, Jerome, and Messionier came in for the worst
attacks. They stood for everything the modern art world hated -- a high
degree of finish, narrative content, interest in modelling in light and
shade, sentimentality, and grand subject matter, all done with the
highest precision and strongest technique. (This is a real shame because
Bourgeueau is fantastic; he's one of my heroes, and few have painted the
human figure any better.) And, in fact, technique was strongly
downplayed at art schools in the 60s and 70s because ... "who would want
to do that?" And, since most artists were more interested in commercial
success and the art world lifestyle, it was merely a rhetorical
question.
Comics, commercial art, and furry art haven't fared that well because of
this. The qualities admired in our fave modes of art are remarkably
similar to those of the academic artists whose work the critics hate so
much ... especially narrative, characterization, and grand themes and
subject matter. In so far as comic art does reflect current art values
it does so through the somewhat less highly regarded "intellectual
stream", especially surrealism and some types of ironic post-modernism.
It has very little to do with colour theory or formless shapes. (And I
take it you're not planning to do the Wildlifers cast as differently
coloured circles and squares in your next book, Joe, so it looks like
that trend will just have to continue. =^_^=)
So, yeah, that's one of the reasons there is such a wide gulf between
what's in the comic books and what's in the art gallery ... and why
furries get no respect. We're associated with the *wrong* stuff.
Hmmmphh.
> Fortunately, this has been changing recently as "commercial" artists
> such as Boris Vallejo and Frank Frazetta gain popularity. The public
> is
> pretty tired of the shell game that gallery owners have been playing
> for
> forty years, and it's getting increasingly hard to deny that even
> though
> they're doing book covers and ads these guys have more talent in
> classical media like oils than a dozen Andre Seranos. I live in
> constant hope that one day, art will be art again -- no matter how you
>
> sell it.
As do I. I hear figure drawing is coming back into vogue. Mainly coz of
Eric Fischl ... but that's another story.
> Commercial artists, and especially comic book artists, require a
> special
> kind of training in formalized methods, which after the advent of
> postmodernism fell violently out of favor. I used to think that it
> was
> only me that had a problem with this -- I couldn't get a single one of
>
> my instructors in college to tell me a 'right' way of doing something,
>
> as they kept arguing that there was no "right" or "wrong" in art. It
> was, of course, a typical nonrational argument, which is now the
> province of so-called "fine art." Come to find out this is a typical
> experience of aspiring comic artists, because comics *is* a formal art
>
> form. Unlike "fine art," comics has rules that must be followed --
> the
> pages are a standard size; the artwork most often must be pencilled,
> then lettered, then inked in flat black and white; and there is
> generally some sort of sequential story to be protrayed. This means
> that there are some ways of working and portraying that work better
> than
> others, and it is these in which the aspiring graphic artist needs and
>
> desires specialized training and direction.
Comics and illustration art are problematic because they fall into a
no-man's-land between fine and commercial art. It has qualities of both.
It's obviously has little to do with what's in the galleries (and that's
not its place), but yet ... it's not selling anything; it's not ad art.
The universities concentrate on the fine art aspect with lots of
artspeak and the do-yer-own-thing mentality you skewered so well, Joe.
The community colleges are mainly focused on art as a trade. Nowadays,
you're more often than not going to wind up spending more of your time
learning computer graphics and electronic pre-press than drawing.
Creativity is not exactly frowned upon, but it's secondary to the
requirments of the commercial job.
So where does this leave people who crave technical skill and
proficiency, but yet aren't interested in using that skill to sell
oatmeal or soap. Who teaches both inspiration and craft? Very few
places. Most people go to one place or the other, develop one side of
their artistic personality, and then have to work on starting from
scratch on the other side.
> All in all, this leads me to believe that most of the ignorance about
> and poor quality of funny animal/anthro comics and art is
> self-inflicted
> -- the work would be more widely read and accepted if it were simply
> better. Art Spiegelman's "Maus" has now won the Pulitzer Prize --
> what
> does this tell you about the "public perception" of funny animal
> comics?
This is a vicious circle. Many retailer's opinions about fa/a comics
still reflect the b&w boom of the mid-late 80s. (Those people have been
in business forever it seems.) Because they aren't considered
collectible, fa/a comics are ignored by retailers, which means fans
don't see them, so they don't pick up new fans, don't sell, are more
expensive, don't have the production values, don't have the marketing,
so many comic artists avoid the genre, so the only artists who do them
are the artists who love the genre, so there are fewer fa/a comics, so
they don't go up in value, so they are ignored by retailers ..... have I
come full circle yet. Good. I was starting to get dizzy =^_^=
Actually, I think the fa/a comics on the shelves today are remarkably
good considering what they are up against. There are a high number of
really, really good almost-pro artists, and I think that overall the
best and brightest furry artists are better than most of the artists at
Marvel, DC, Image. I know you'll disagree with me, Joe, but I think most
SH comics are horrible with a capital F. GD BETA looks better than
anything Marvel's published lately; the promo art for CHAOS, INC. is
equal to anything used by the big boys in this month's PREVIEWS,. etc.
Ah, that's enought talking. It's getting around to one A.M. I'm tired.
We'll continue this later, I take it. Love these debates, BTW, Joe.
You're one of the most knowledgable fans on the furry UseNet groups.
(And I like your posts, too, Lisa; just didn't have time to get to
them.) Ummm ... one small correction tho' .... Whistler died in 1903 and
the court case was a slander trial by Ruskin, not an obscenity one.
Sorry to be picky.
Cheers;
J. J.
P.S. My spell-checker's not working. Be prepared for typos!
Joe Rosales
Cut down drastically, Lisa sed:
> I seem to remember that in Europe there had
> _always_ been a separation between 'art-as-hobby' and 'artist'.
Hmmm... I'd argue that the other thing you were talking about, using art
as a meditation technique, is the definition of a hobby -- doing art for
relaxation, dabbling simply to enjoy the process. I have no problem
with that, but I too make a separation between professional artists and
hobbiests. I have a particular problem with all the hobbiests and
dilettantes who want to call themselves professionals. (cough cough,
grumble)
Lisa sed, on art as art for everyone:
> I agree wholeheartedly... in this day and age there's no nobility to
> be a Patron and pay your way through life (although some millionaires
> would like to think of themselves as such), so every artist must find
> a way to make a buck and still produce _art_ that they can be proud
> of.
Such rich 'patrons' are the people for whom even now galleries full of
bogus "high-concept" art exists. Who else would pay six thousand
dollars for a piece of canvas covered with random paint splatters? I'm
reminded of the critics in the 60's who described one unknown artist as
"powerful" and "exuberant", not realizing the work was actually done by
a chimpanzee. How can these people expect to be taken seriously?
There is another thing, that I didn't bring up last time: When
abstractionists, particularly Picasso, first appeared, they were almost
universally panned by critics. That totally came back to haunt them, as
it happened that Picasso really _was_ a genius and a stupendous talent.
After dissing Picasso and completely missing Van Gogh (as you rightfully
pointed out), it's been suggested that most critics are so afraid of
being labelled as fools after the fact that they'd rather support
garbage and play it safe than risk ruining their careers by attacking or
dismissing anyone. I find that reasoning plausable.
and:
> Actually, Albrecht Dürer's woodcuts were considered his 'pandering to
> the lower classes' at first... again, the societal attitude was split
> about what an artist should be doing: Dürer created fine art pieces
> for the Nobility, and woodcuts for everyone else.
Yeah, but the people who were complaining were the nobility, not the hoi
polloi. We're talking about the same folks who passed laws outlawing
the wearing of certain fabrics and colors by anyone but them, so
everybody would *know* they were nobles. Of course they thought great
art was just for them! Dürer had other ideas -- he could have made a
living just working for the nobles, but he wanted to spread his art
around for the average Joe (or in this case, Hans) to enjoy. He knew
better!
That's all for this bit!
-- Joe
Joe Rosales
Lisa sed:
> Again, I never saw Vootie, just heard a lot about it from Reed.
I should really apologize for using references to “Vootie”. The
references are valid, I think; but the fanzine is totally obscure and
very rare, and chances are no one else on this ng has ever even seen a
copy. I had the opportunity to read a fairly long run of consecutive
issues. But it still means I’m drawing conclusions without anyone being
able to check out my source material, which is a poor way to argue.
Sorry!
And continuing:
> As a
> point in fact, Omaha was the first _comic book_ I ever read: I was a
> deprived child who never got comics outside of the Sunday Paper and
> even the Disney stuff was only in movie format...
Of course, the fact that you may not have seen or heard of the material
doesn’t mean that it wasn’t well known and influential to the creators
and media in question. fa/a comics in the 80’s in the US are heavily
rooted in underground comics of the 1970’s -- “Omaha” most obviously,
but also “Critters” and TMNT.
After my original post I dug out my copy of “No Ducks!” to check my
reference. It features Reed Waller, Jim Schumeister, Ken Fletcher, Tim
Boxell, and Richard Larson, and was printed in 1977 by Last Gasp
Eco-Funnies, well-known purveyor of fine underground comics. The
introduction (by Ken Fletcher) specifically references both Fritz and
Krazy Kat, as well as the notorious underground Disney parody “The Air
Pirates.” How influential was this comic? Well, Phil Folio
specifically named one of its stories, “Bun E” by Richard Larson, as the
inspiration for “Buck Godot, Zap Gun for Hire”. These guys knew all
about the material I made reference to previously.
About funny animals:
> Everyone acknowledges that "Maus" is biographical and using
> the animals as metaphor. While I have no problems with this, I think
> the public perceptions of it is _different_ to the other 'furry
> comics', essentially treating "Maus" as a graphical equivalent of
> "Animal Farm", which also was heavily metaphorical. They aren't
> seeing the 'animals' _as_ 'animals_.
Hmmm... this seems like the old "funny animals" vs. "anthropomorphics"
argument, which I don't really consider valid. Even animal-type aliens
can be considered metaphorical. I mean, Reed Waller considers Omaha a
total funny animal comic, completely metaphorical. It's just a question
of degrees.
And I'd argue that the real success of "Usagi" lies in the fact that
Stan Sakai has kept producing high-quality work on a clockwork schedule
for over ten years. A sure formula for success!
-- Joe
Doodles
On Fri, 03 Apr 1998 04:12:30 -0600, Joe Rosales <joea...@stic.net>
wrote:
>Lisa sed:
>> Again, I never saw Vootie, just heard a lot about it from Reed.
>
>I should really apologize for using references to “Vootie”. The
>references are valid, I think; but the fanzine is totally obscure and
>very rare, and chances are no one else on this ng has ever even seen a
>copy. I had the opportunity to read a fairly long run of consecutive
>issues. But it still means I’m drawing conclusions without anyone being
>able to check out my source material, which is a poor way to argue.
>Sorry!
I've seen two issues, thanks to running into Ken Fletcher at a past
CF. Amazing what folks could do with mimeographs...
>After my original post I dug out my copy of “No Ducks!” to check my
>reference.
Both issues are in my collection. Very seminal work...
Unca Spooge, pondering how he ended up with over 2000 comics...
Joe Rosales
Joe sed:
>> James Whistler had been a proponent of it [nonrational art]
>> in the 1920s and '30s, and caused a stir when brought up on
>> obscenity charges by refusing to attribute any subject matter to any
>> of his works. No one asks what a symphony is "about," he argued, so
>> why must paintings or sculptures be "about" something?
Allen asked:
> This is news to me, being the non-graphic-type-artist that I am.
> What happened with the charges? And how did folks make the
> leap from "What is it?" to "obscene" in the first place?
The case was specifically about a particular sculpture called, if I
remember correctly, "Bird in Flight." It was a polished bronze shape
that stood straight up and looked kind of like a Nike logo swoop, only
not so fat on the lower end. But the whole trial was more of an
indictment of his art style and of Whistler himself, who was by all
accounts a smartass jerk.
In the rather suspicious and sometimes puritanical atmosphere of the
early 20th century -- remember, there are still Victorians around from a
decade or so before, and a decade or so later Hitler starts burning
abstract paintings -- artwork was routinely examined at customs to see
if it was "pornographic". In this instance Whistler was coming from
England and when questioned about "Bird" he of course refused to say
what the sculpture was about, since he didn't believe it was really
"about" anything -- and of course, because he was a jerk. The trail
quickly became a farce, and Whistler was of course acquitted.
How much of a jerk was Whistler? Allen made the comment:
> All I can say is, I don't know if it is art or not. But I know what
> I like!
Unbeknownst to him, this is actually a quote from a story concerning
Whistler!
At one of Whistler's gallery showings, a woman came up to complement
Whistler on his work. Approaching the artist she did so, and ended
glowingly with, "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like!"
Whistler looked dryly at the woman and replied, "Madame, so does a cow."
-- Joe!
Joe Rosales
You axed:
> This is my one little question. I've heard references to Maus before
> and it's piqued my interest...where can I find a copy of it? And,
> possibly more important, if I do manage to find a copy, how much will
> it cost? :)
Your local large bookstore should carry it or at least be able to order
it -- I know it's still in print. Failing that you might also try your
local college bookstore -- it gained popularity as a concentration camp
narrative even before the Pulitzer, and I know many of the college
bookstores around here were ordering it.
There are two volumes I know of: "My Father Bleeds History" (which is,
I think, a retitled reissue of the original "A Survivor's Tale," which
was printed before the second volume was done) and "And Here My Troubles
Began." Each volume is about $15. There is a complete paperback of
both volumes for about $27.50, and a hardcover edition for something
like $35. Good luck!
-- Joe
Joe Rosales
I'd just like to say how happy I am with the way this thread has gone,
and to thank JJ for expanding so learnedly upon my own comments. I wish
I had read his post before posting my last one about Whistler. (I can't
find my art history book anywhere.) Oh, well.
But also:
> And I
> take it you're not planning to do the Wildlifers cast as differently
> coloured circles and squares in your next book, Joe, so it looks like
> that trend will just have to continue. =^_^=
Actually, I was thinking of taking more of a Klee approach -- just one
big block of color on each page.
> There are a high number of
> really, really good almost-pro artists, and I think that overall the
> best and brightest furry artists are better than most of the artists
> at Marvel, DC, Image. I know you'll disagree with me, Joe, but I think
> most SH comics are horrible with a capital F.
Well, the best and brightest superhero artists are guys like Alex Ross,
Alan Davis and Art Adams, who are each individually more talented than
the top 10% of furry comics artists combined. They're old-style artists
who can write, lay out, pencil and ink their own stuff, and then paint
the covers for the books too -- the kind of thing I aspire to in my
wildest dreams. (I suck at painting.)
I must point out, though, that the real barrier for most semi-pros (and
me!) is production. It's pretty easy to do some good pinups, even great
pinups. But Davis, for instance, wrote _and_ pencilled twenty-something
issues of "Excalibur," before which he only pencilled twenty-something
isses -- of course, before that he had written and pencilled a couple
hundred pages of "Captain Britain," which was essentially the first part
of the ongoing saga, but that's another story. My point is,
professional comic artists are real workhorses. Most of the people
you're talking about aren't ready to turn pro, or just don't want to.
Take Ken Sample, for instance. Really good artist? Sure. But
absolutely no interest in doing comics. In fact, he's never done any
sequential work at all, outside of inking a few pages for close
buddies. Or Josh Quagmire -- good artist, can do the pages. But very,
very hard to work with, as many editors (and fans) have found out.
Really, there are almost no fa/a artists who have the speed,
professional attitude and overall quality to produce professional work
at a professional pace, and have the gumption to do so. When that
changes -- and it might soon, look for Stephanie Gladden's "Hopster's
Tracks" soon at a store near you! -- _then_ you'll see the comics get
some more respect and market share.
> Many retailer's opinions about fa/a comics
> still reflect the b&w boom of the mid-late 80s.
Well, not really. How many retailers have you talked to about this?
Without going into all the tedious details, we down here -- James and
Elin (who used to _run_ a comics shop) and Matt and myself -- have been
doing some serious research into what stores will buy, and when, and
why. Most of them don't care about ten years ago; and the "collectable"
comics market crashed about four years ago, along with most of the
stores that depended on them. There are specific barriers fa/a comics
have to overcome, but most of them right now are the same barriers that
any new indy comic has. Really, if all fa/a comics were at least as
good and regular as "Usagi" or as hip and funny as "Ragmop", they'd all
probably do at least as well as those comics do. But they aren't, so
they don't.
And I don't even use a spellchecker usually -- as if you couldn't tell!
-- Joe
Ostrich
Jim Doolittle (dool...@uiuc.edu) wrote:
: This is my one little question. I've heard references to Maus before and
: it's piqued my interest...where can I find a copy of it? And, possibly
: more important, if I do manage to find a copy, how much will it cost? :)
They've got it at Border's, I know, because I saw it earlier tonight. It
comes in two volumes. I'm unsure of the price, but I'd guess about $12 to
$18 for each volume. It may be on sale too if you hurry - they had a huge
stack of books dealing with war crimes, atrocities, etc., from which I
acquired 'The Rape of Nanking' for $18, when it lists at $25. It seemed to
be some sort of promotion ('Atrocity Days at Borders! Hurry on Down!')
so I'd think thet chances are good that you can get Maus at a discount.
-Ostrich! <")
Ostrich
Joe Rosales (joea...@stic.net) wrote:
: Your local large bookstore should carry it or at least be able to order
: it -- I know it's still in print. Failing that you might also try your
I posted this in the original thread as well, but since it seems to have
split...
Borders carries both volumes of Maus - I was there earlier tonight. Also,
they seem to be having some sort of sale on books dealing with massacres,
atrocities, etc., since there was a display area devoted to them, and I was
able to purchase Chang's 'Rape of Nanking' for $18 (a pleasant surprise,
since I'd girded my loins to spend the $25 it lists for). If you hurry you
might be able to get it at a discount.
-Ostrich! <")
Allen Kitchen
Joe Rosales <joea...@stic.net> wrote in article
<352693...@stic.net>...
> Joe sed:
> Whistler was of course acquitted.
Good!
> How much of a jerk was Whistler? Allen made the comment:
> > All I can say is, I don't know if it is art or not. But I know what
> > I like!
>
> Unbeknownst to him, this is actually a quote from a story concerning
> Whistler!
>
> At one of Whistler's gallery showings, a woman came up to complement
> Whistler on his work. Approaching the artist she did so, and ended
> glowingly with, "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like!"
>
> Whistler looked dryly at the woman and replied, "Madame, so does a cow."
The wolf ergs, and clutches his hands to his chest. He
mutters "They got me!" a few times while spinning about in a circle
before finally falling to the ground. A lily suddenly pops up in his
hands. Where'd it come from? hey, dead men tell no tales :)
Geez, that guy was a snot! I mean, the woman complemented
him and he fired on her like that? Sounds like "Whistlers Mother" is
missing a few sylables on the end!
I've never understood the elitist attitude some artists hold. Just
because I can't see the pink snowbunny in an array of triangles, doesn't
mean I'm a lowclass slob who should be living in a trailer park with
blackvelvet paintings of elvis everywhere. I also know that most artists
don't share the snobbish attitude. I found almost every artist at CF to
be more than friendly and chatty. Even Joe :)
My one experience with snobish art types: Artist was
showing avante-garde paintings, although sculptures in frames was
a better description. I asked the artist what one of them was about.
She (yes, female) told me that if I didn't 'get it', I shouldn't be inside
a room full of "True artists and people of quality".
I asked her if she understood how electricity worked. She
said no. As I left, I turned off the lights in the gallery.
Had I been a real prick, I'd have shut it off at the breaker
panel and taken the breaker with me. Ah well. I didn't know
where the breaker panel was anyway... A small notice to them
that one doesn't have to understand something in order to enjoy
its benifits.
Thanks Joe for telling me how the Whistler bit went. I never
heard about any of that before.
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Ostrich
Allen Kitchen (all...@blkbox.com) wrote:
: I've never understood the elitist attitude some artists hold. Just
: because I can't see the pink snowbunny in an array of triangles, doesn't
: mean I'm a lowclass slob who should be living in a trailer park with
: blackvelvet paintings of elvis everywhere. I also know that most artists
: don't share the snobbish attitude. I found almost every artist at CF to
: be more than friendly and chatty. Even Joe :)
I think the attitude is explained by the fact that the majority of 'modern
artists' are well aware that they're in the business of selling the emperor's
new clothes. Any critical examination of what they're doing is therefore
a threat. It's to their advantage to create an atmosphere in which
discussion of art in any but the foggiest, most general terms is
discouraged.
-Ostrich! <") n. 'A dynamic, yet enigmatic, ratite.'
Tygger L. Graf
Allen Kitchen wrote in message <01bd6186$977c2750$8f301bc6@spgspare>...
[snip of GREAT story]
> I asked her if she understood how electricity worked. She
>said no. As I left, I turned off the lights in the gallery.
Tygger BURSTS out laffing so hard she falls out of the large beanbag she was
nested in between bleacher rows. *THUD* From under the seats, her hand can
be seen raised with the thumb up.
"....*snickersnerk*...I hurt now...heeheehee..."
--Tygger
Andrija Popovic
In article <6gcd6k$k42$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>, "Tygger L. Graf"
<gr...@primenet.com> wrote:
Yes, our favorite Tygger is overcome by the sight of Allen Kitchen
channeling for Stephan Wright. ^_^
> --Tygger
Allen Kitchen
Andrija Popovic <vu...@concentric.net> wrote in article
<vuk6-07049...@ts003d27.per-md.concentric.net>...
> In article <6gcd6k$k42$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>, "Tygger L. Graf"
> <gr...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> > Allen Kitchen wrote in message <01bd6186$977c2750$8f301bc6@spgspare>...
> >
> > [snip of GREAT story]
> > > I asked her if she understood how electricity worked. She
> > >said no. As I left, I turned off the lights in the gallery.
> >
> > Tygger BURSTS out laffing so hard she falls out of the large beanbag
she was
> > nested in between bleacher rows. *THUD* From under the seats, her
hand can
> > be seen raised with the thumb up.
> >
> > "....*snickersnerk*...I hurt now...heeheehee..."
>
> Yes, our favorite Tygger is overcome by the sight of Allen Kitchen
> channeling for Stephan Wright. ^_^
Oh, the comic? Yeah, I've heard some of his stuff.
He has a very droll sense of humor.
The artist just turned the galleries lights right
back on. She probably thought I was a jerk. I wonder how
many people there got my point? Then again, I wonder how
many there got the point of the show? Personally, I thought
the woman was a jerk myself. I only asked what a picture
was all about... The history, emotions, background, anything.
Hardly a reason to be nasty.
The wolf grins, and quickly paints a smiley face on
the exposed Tygger thumb :) Glad to see there are nice and
happy artists around.
Andrija Popovic
In article <01bd6261$b0d571d0$8f301bc6@spgspare>, "Allen Kitchen"
<all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
> Andrija Popovic <vu...@concentric.net> wrote in article
> <vuk6-07049...@ts003d27.per-md.concentric.net>...
> > In article <6gcd6k$k42$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>, "Tygger L. Graf"
> > <gr...@primenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Allen Kitchen wrote in message <01bd6186$977c2750$8f301bc6@spgspare>...
> > >
> > > [snip of GREAT story]
> > > > I asked her if she understood how electricity worked. She
> > > >said no. As I left, I turned off the lights in the gallery.
> > >
> > > Tygger BURSTS out laffing so hard she falls out of the large beanbag
> she was
> > > nested in between bleacher rows. *THUD* From under the seats, her
> hand can
> > > be seen raised with the thumb up.
> > >
> > > "....*snickersnerk*...I hurt now...heeheehee..."
> >
> > Yes, our favorite Tygger is overcome by the sight of Allen Kitchen
> > channeling for Stephan Wright. ^_^
>
> Oh, the comic? Yeah, I've heard some of his stuff.
> He has a very droll sense of humor.
I can hear him saying the punchline. Reminds me of his 'light switch to
nowhere' joke.
> Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
> http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
--
Allen Kitchen
Andrija Popovic <vu...@concentric.net> wrote in article
<vuk6-08049...@ts007d27.per-md.concentric.net>...
>
> I can hear him saying the punchline. Reminds me of his 'light switch to
> nowhere' joke.
> Andrija Popovic (vu...@concentric.net)
> http://www.concentric.net/~vuk6/index.html
> "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do not abandon them."
> --Phantom F. Harlock _Arcadia of My Youth_
Hmmm. I'm afraid I don't know that one. Could you tell
it to us please?
Andrija Popovic
In article <01bd6304$14098870$8f301bc6@spgspare>, "Allen Kitchen"
<all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
> Andrija Popovic <vu...@concentric.net> wrote in article
> <vuk6-08049...@ts007d27.per-md.concentric.net>...
> >
> > I can hear him saying the punchline. Reminds me of his 'light switch to
> > nowhere' joke.
>
> > Andrija Popovic (vu...@concentric.net)
> > http://www.concentric.net/~vuk6/index.html
> > "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do not abandon them."
> > --Phantom F. Harlock _Arcadia of My Youth_
>
> Hmmm. I'm afraid I don't know that one. Could you tell
> it to us please?
Ok, but you'll have to imagine Stephan Wright's totally deadpan delivery
in this. And I can never him justice.
"I have this lightswitch in my house. It doesn't do anything, doesn't turn
anything on. Everytime I pass it, I flick it on and off."
"On and off. On and off. Just like that."
"One day I got a letter from Duseldorf Germany."
"It said 'Quit it.'"
"'We're trying to sleep.'"
> Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
> http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
--
Allen Kitchen
Andrija Popovic <vu...@concentric.net> wrote in article
<vuk6-09049...@ts006d20.per-md.concentric.net>...
> Ok, but you'll have to imagine Stephan Wright's totally deadpan delivery
> in this. And I can never him justice.
>
> "I have this lightswitch in my house. It doesn't do anything, doesn't
turn
> anything on. Everytime I pass it, I flick it on and off."
>
> "On and off. On and off. Just like that."
>
> "One day I got a letter from Duseldorf Germany."
>
> "It said 'Quit it.'"
> "'We're trying to sleep.'"
The wolf chortles and chuckles warmly :)
hehehehehehehehehehehehehheh.
I think you did him justice milady. Thank you very much.
And to think I actually have one of those mystery switchs
in my home...
Andrija Popovic
In article <01bd63c3$56dc1b80$8f301bc6@spgspare>, "Allen Kitchen"
<all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
> Andrija Popovic <vu...@concentric.net> wrote in article
> <vuk6-09049...@ts006d20.per-md.concentric.net>...
> > Ok, but you'll have to imagine Stephan Wright's totally deadpan delivery
> > in this. And I can never him justice.
> >
> > "I have this lightswitch in my house. It doesn't do anything, doesn't
> turn
> > anything on. Everytime I pass it, I flick it on and off."
> >
> > "On and off. On and off. Just like that."
> >
> > "One day I got a letter from Duseldorf Germany."
> >
> > "It said 'Quit it.'"
> > "'We're trying to sleep.'"
>
> The wolf chortles and chuckles warmly :)
> hehehehehehehehehehehehehheh.
>
> I think you did him justice milady. Thank you very much.
No trouble. And thank you. ^_^
> And to think I actually have one of those mystery switchs
> in my home...
So do I. But they never mystified me as much as the big red buttons we had
in my junior high school. Some of the classes used to be Industrial Ed
classes and they were emergency power-down switches. But when the moved
the classes, they never yanked the wiring.
What did those buttons do, then? We used to push them repeatedly, waiting
for the school's hidden fusion reactor to scram or something. ^_^
> Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
> http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Andrian
Allen Kitchen
Andrija Popovic <vu...@concentric.net> wrote in article
<vuk6-10049...@ts003d38.per-md.concentric.net>...
> So do I. But they never mystified me as much as the big red buttons we
had
> in my junior high school. Some of the classes used to be Industrial Ed
> classes and they were emergency power-down switches. But when the moved
> the classes, they never yanked the wiring.
>
> What did those buttons do, then? We used to push them repeatedly, waiting
> for the school's hidden fusion reactor to scram or something. ^_^
I'm the smartass who'd tie it into an SCR and a few batteries to a siren.
Press it, and the siren goes off. Turn it off, and the siren keeps going.
Use a relay instead of a siren and set off the school's bells instead... :)
NOW you've got a party!
BTW: i hijacked the schools PA once. Took them 2 hours to find where
I hid the amplifier. I locked a door in the bandroom's practice area, and
it took them an hour to break in. The amp wasn't there... I hid it in the
acoustic tiles in the open room next to it. Ah, humans. They are too
easy at times :) They'd have never found it if I'd taken the time to hide
the powercord better.
Allen Kitchen (who is now wondering how to hijack the PA at work. Uh
oh...)
Andrija Popovic
In article <01bd6491$ea728090$8f301bc6@spgspare>, "Allen Kitchen"
<all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
> Andrija Popovic <vu...@concentric.net> wrote in article
> <vuk6-10049...@ts003d38.per-md.concentric.net>...
> > So do I. But they never mystified me as much as the big red buttons we
> had
> > in my junior high school. Some of the classes used to be Industrial Ed
> > classes and they were emergency power-down switches. But when the moved
> > the classes, they never yanked the wiring.
> >
> > What did those buttons do, then? We used to push them repeatedly, waiting
> > for the school's hidden fusion reactor to scram or something. ^_^
>
> I'm the smartass who'd tie it into an SCR and a few batteries to a siren.
> Press it, and the siren goes off. Turn it off, and the siren keeps going.
> Use a relay instead of a siren and set off the school's bells instead... :)
> NOW you've got a party!
I simply don't have the expertise to do this sort of thing. I'm just 'zis
guy, see. :)
> BTW: i hijacked the schools PA once. Took them 2 hours to find where
> I hid the amplifier. I locked a door in the bandroom's practice area, and
> it took them an hour to break in. The amp wasn't there... I hid it in the
> acoustic tiles in the open room next to it. Ah, humans. They are too
> easy at times :) They'd have never found it if I'd taken the time to hide
> the powercord better.
Had I been involved, the acoustic tile would have cracked mysteriously and
the amp fallen on the superintendant of schools' head. I was always 'the
one who got nailed' in school. Three people could drive past a parked
police car, spraying alchohol from the windows at 150 miles an hour and
not get stopped.
I'd go three miles over the speed limit and the police car would nail me
to the curb for speeding and any other offence he could find without
planting evidence.
I had a run of bad luck. ^_^
> Allen Kitchen (who is now wondering how to hijack the PA at work. Uh
> oh...)
Andrian
J. L. Eddy
On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:15:12 -0500, Lisa Jennings <Same...@SamePlace.com>
wrote:
>That's why I brought them... I notice that a good percentage of my
>friends in fandom like a) Japanese, b) Italian, or c) vegetarian, so I
>provided for all.... the club-subs and taco-bar were for the meat-loving
>folks. :3
>
>Now, did you want sauce on your strombolli?
Brer pops back into existence in a puff of powdered donut-sugar and takes a
seat next to Skorzy. "Woah... Lots of talk on the old bleachers in the last
six weeks, eh? Food everywhere, beer, wine..."
He gets up and digs in the cooler, wincing at the icewater soaking his fur
to the elbow and comes up with a Julius Echter Weissbier. He sets it aside
and digs up a stein from somewhere, opening the bottle carefully to get
just the right amount of yeast suspended while pouring. "Lots of sushi,
Italian, and Mexican about -- where's the pickled squid and
braunschweiger?"
Taking a long look around, he recognizes several faces and waves to all the
new bleacher creatures. "Hiya all! Welcome to the safezone!"
He settles back next to the rat and pulls out the Boston Globe classified
section, circling various jobs as he finds them.
-Brer
(Back in Usenet again...)
_______________________________________________________________________
J. L. Eddy (aka: "Brer" on FurToonia) <bfo...@ma.ultranet.com>
Story Stuff: <http://www.tiac.net/users/bfoxxe/tbu-contents.shtml>