OT: Blind Allegiance
Darrin
are what we need in these times more than anything. If we follow along
blindly with everything our government does then we cease to be a free
people. You are not unpatriotic or un-American for speaking your mind!
Speaking out against government action in which you disagree is the most
American thing we can do! Don't buy all of the hype and rhetoric and don't
be afraid to be called unpatriotic for voicing your opinion. The colors of
our beloved flag are indeed beautiful and very bright. Don't allow
yourselves to be blinded by them.
Jack
"Darrin" <em...@address.com> wrote in message
news:WIcg9.645$Gc7...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
If you don't believe in protecting freedom by force, you don't deserve it.
The day pacifists like yourself are in power, the only thing blinding would
be the total destruction of American credibility.
The Colemans
"Mr" <M...@Moose.com> wrote in message
news:kgm2ou8b5ubela78u...@4ax.com...
That much, I agree with.
Being too
> tragically hip, blinded by the cult of hipness is just as fatal.
And I'd like to add that being tragically square, blinded by the cult of
squareness is just as fatal.
> The hallmark of a lemming of course is one who doesnt even realize
> they are one.
*ahem*
>Anti-social teens of course are legendarily herd-like
> and cultists.
and I'd like to add that teens who seem very normally socialized are
legendarily closed minded and snobbish.
They love to annoint a guru who to them knows all and
> then follow them slavishly all while claiming to be a free thinker.
And I'd like to add that the above have sets of hero gurus who to them
represent aspects of total rightness just as the Greek Gods themselves were
divided by power and specific influence, who expect the same near God like
allegiance, all the while claiming they represent true freedom.
And then there's those Fucking Independants.. don't get me started ..neither
here nor there, and that's just disturbing!
And the Libertarians, what the hell are they talking about?
I know at least a dozen stereotypical mannerisms and gestures for each of
these outcasts..
why back in my day we used to just hang those anti social teens right by the
water cooler as a warning to any who came after..
and I'll tell you something else..
if we even SAW a guru it was shoot first and anybody who asked a question
would get shot, too!
We didn't mess around back in the day by golly...
Sorry. just got carried away questioning the questioner.
Twang!
Darrin
that make the statement any less true? Ever heard of the First Amendment? We
should feel free, not afraid, to excersise our First Amendment rights. I
beleive that too many people these days are either spoon-fed their "opinion"
by CNN or are too afraid that what they truly beleive could be construed as
unpatriotic. That's my own opinion, not some cult guru's, and I'm far from
an antisocial outcast.
"The Colemans" <twa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:L5eg9.2637$Le2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Darrin
made, but I couldn't find it. Could it be that it's not in there? Maybe
someone could point it out to me?
Mr
>Assuming that I posted this opinion in an attempt to be hip (or square) does
>that make the statement any less true? Ever heard of the First Amendment? We
>should feel free, not afraid, to excersise our First Amendment rights. I
>beleive that too many people these days are either spoon-fed their "opinion"
>by CNN or are too afraid that what they truly beleive could be construed as
>unpatriotic. That's my own opinion, not some cult guru's, and I'm far from
>an antisocial outcast.
One should never be afraid but one tends to see such "freethinking"
and glib comments generally from the lemmings on the Left. As
predictable as the opinions spoonfed to the lemmings on the Right.
Generally I find the Left far more blind because they really do feel
superior and feel as if they arent being spoonfed or being lemmings
and yet you see the same opinions handed down in Rush Limbaugh
fashion, from the DNC and other popular columnists echoed the next day
in their posts. The people espousing never waver in their opinions
across the board on all issues, except that it differs depending on if
"their side" backs it or not.
Question the governments authority? Yes , its a cliche going back as
far as Agamemnon. Should we have questioned WWII ? The Official line
on the Holocaust? There were active America Firsters. Should we
question the Civil Rights movements implementation into law? Many
southern states were actively against it and there were "guerilla"
movements in such states or "terrorists" depending on your point of
view . Was Kennedy's space race a waste of money to show Russia who
was boss? Led by Werner Von Braun , who formerly worked for the Nazis?
Such slogans dont make a lot of sense. You should deploy critical
thinking skills on every issue whether it involves your ethnic group,
*any* country , any ideological group - *all* sides. Sometimes that
means youll agree with the government, other times not. And there
will be a diversity of opinion. And not everyone who disagrees with
you will be an idiot or evil.
As Zappa said :
Zappa: Because of my reputation, what else. In the eyes of clean
citizens, I am still a bizarre freak undermining authority. And they
are right! At least: I try to be that in my art. But in reality I'm a
lot more to the point and normal than most people think. I've never
been one of those whacked out hippies. In 1967, "We're only in it for
the money" was the only record that dared make critical comments with
regards to the hippiewave and the flower power. We - my band The
Mothers Of Invention - weren't hippies, but freaks. The difference was
that, just like squares (the American term for conformist citizens),
hippies actually wore some kind of uniform, had a uniform use of
language and a flock mentality.
I can remember being criticized over having said at a concert in
London, that students had better concentrated upon their studies
instead of wasting their time with protest marches and strikes.
Because as soon as you become a lawyer or a doctor or a politician,
you have a lot more pulling power to change the world than you would
have being a longhaired student. Twenty years later I still think in
an unconventional way, but otherwise I work a whole lot more
efficiently than a lot of these businessmen in their designer suits: I
don't take drugs, I get up early, I am a workaholic, I lead my own
company... It is a false assumption to think you have to lead a crazy
life in order to have original ideas, and it's also a false assumption
that leading a normal life means conforming to the majority. For
instance, I am a family man. I love my family. My family is the
cornerstone of my society. I'm said to be a weirdo, a freak, but none
of my kids takes drugs, or has been arrested by the police, or have
committed suicide, or ran away from home...
Im much more afraid of the groups that dont realize they are lemmings
and want to push their views with a messianic fervor suited more for
the Spanish Inquisition. whether from the Left or the Right.
You should ask yourself --- Have I ever changed my opinion from an
argument on "the other side?" Do I only think one group of people
have the complete wisdom of the universe? Do I have opinions that
draw across various ideological lines?
One should never be afraid to speak ones mind. But there are
appropriate venues and inappropriate ones and you can never discount
the fact , *you* and not someone else might be the idiot. Humility is
a necessary trait when it comes to humans. Timothy Leary I saw in his
later years laughing at a tape of himself and remarked "We were all
idiots back then!"
As for the "suits" , once it was hip to wear a nehru jacket or beads
and proclaim yourself "free" from mainstream America, to wear the same
old nehru suit now is hardly an act of cutting edge fashion. In the
same way you dont want to be a lemming and out-of-it thinking you are
hip. Many "conformists" still use the same old worn rhetoric about
"mainstreamers" , who often *know* they are conforming. Its far
worse when you dont know and you are totally out of it. Make sure you
know what you are talking about. Some huge changes have happened in
regards to postmodern philosophy, economics and even poltics since
the 1960's. I'll give you clue , its not the cartoonish version you
see blared all over the net by "freethinkers".
A member of the MC5 was on recently on National Public Radio laughing
saying anyone who thought they sat around with shotguns planning a
revolution, are totally mistaken. He said they were sitting around
getting high and having a ball. The interviewer read their Manifesto
which proclaimed Free Food, Free Media, Free Everything..........
She asked "So were your concerts free ?"
"Heck No ! " , he laughed. We charged as much as we could get away
with but it often ended up free.
Jack Kerouc it was stated recently by a biographer was a pretty
reactionary redneck who was pro-Vietnam War.
Eric Burden once said he talked to Jimi Hendrix and was surprised to
hear the usual anti-commie rhetoric coming out of him and ascribed it
to his former years as a paratrooper.
Reality is so much messier than how we imagine it. Humans are largely
a joke. There are serious consequences from their actions but it's
hard to take *any* human completely seriously.
Join the Non-Conformist Conformist Association :
Arrogant
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you even attempting to say we
shouldn't make a gigantic litter box of Iraq?
Darrin <em...@address.com> wrote in message
Arrogant
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you even attempting to say we
shouldn't make a gigantic litter box of Iraq?
Darrin <em...@address.com> wrote in message
Arrogant
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you even attempting to say we
shouldn't make a gigantic litter box of Iraq?
Darrin <em...@address.com> wrote in message
Arrogant
Mo_ron_Hubbard
anytime. What hype and what rhetoric are you speaking about? Iraq? I will
never believe nor care about those in dinkastan. Those people are raised as
kids to hate us. They think it is their duty to kill us. Now I don't want
to go off on a rant however, I believe all Americans should only die of
natural causes. Not by being ran over by a 747. Unfortunately, their is a
part of the worlds population who doesn't see it that way. When I make my
decisions on topics such as should we invade Iraq I'm not going to base it
on the opinion of the french or any others who have short memories. I will
base it on fact. Here is a fact: saddams 15 seconds are about up.
911 can happen again in this country and if we aren't on the offensive IT
WILL HAPPEN AGAIN. Don't mean to upset any of the pacifists in this ng
however, I've seen enough sadness on the tv the last few days. I don't want
to see it again. I want Mr. Bush to find them all and render them unable to
attack us again. In other words kill the motherfuckers!
Are we clear?
"Darrin" <em...@address.com> wrote in message
news:WIcg9.645$Gc7...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Joester
handle the riff raff. Y'eah C'mon! Question authority but respect their
decisions. Or get out and vote or run for office.
J. Janasov
"Mo_ron_Hubbard" <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VSlg9.128131$ja.19...@twister.columbus.rr.com...
The Colemans
"Mo_ron_Hubbard" <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VSlg9.128131$ja.19...@twister.columbus.rr.com...
not
> anytime.
Yeah. If Tricky Dick wants to go around breaking into Hotels who are we to
comlain..
What hype and what rhetoric are you speaking about? Iraq? I will
> never believe nor care about those in dinkastan. Those people are raised
as
> kids to hate us. They think it is their duty to kill us. Now I don't
want
> to go off on a rant however, I believe all Americans should only die of
> natural causes. Not by being ran over by a 747. Unfortunately, their is
a
> part of the worlds population who doesn't see it that way. When I make my
> decisions on topics such as should we invade Iraq I'm not going to base it
> on the opinion of the french or any others who have short memories. I
will
> base it on fact. Here is a fact: saddams 15 seconds are about up.
>
> 911 can happen again in this country and if we aren't on the offensive IT
> WILL HAPPEN AGAIN. Don't mean to upset any of the pacifists in this ng
> however, I've seen enough sadness on the tv the last few days. I don't
want
> to see it again. I want Mr. Bush to find them all and render them unable
to
> attack us again. In other words kill the motherfuckers!
>
> Are we clear?
Nope.
First off, I don't know where you get off putting the original post in only
the light of recent events.
I don't know where you get off thinking that authority is always right. How
come you can't remember anything else?
As to 'kill the motherfuckers'.. that's just stupid nonsensical reactionary
crap. Capture the guilty, give them a trial, and justice will out.
Twang!
Mo_ron_Hubbard
to do with my response? Are you comparing a B&E to what happened on 911? I
said, what fucking rhetoric and hype are you talking about? With no answer
to that question should I consider that recent events are the reason for the
original post? What the fuck do you think? "Capture the guilty", guilty of
what? The "guilty" people are dead. What the fuck are you trying to say?
Perhaps you mean capture the accomplices? And do what with them?
"stupid nonsensical reactionary crap"? Yeah, your right fuckstick, I'm
reacting to 3025 dead people...how the fuck do you react to it? You are one
of those dicks who thinks that maybe we've made these people mad and now
they don't like us...who the fuck cares. Where do you get the fucking idea
that we have to try fucking imbeciles that are targeting us? They know one
language. Do you even know what the fuck you are talking about?
"Can't remember anything else"...what the fuck else should I be remembering
asshole?
You must be one of these enlightened dicks who think because you don't use
verbs such as "kill" that you are something...your not shit...in fact you
probably suck as a guitar player
now, shut the fuck up and go back to practicing scales...
"The Colemans" <twa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Kmng9.4468$Os3.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
The Colemans
> Twang, go back and read what I wrote asswipe.
Come on over shitface.
We'll 'discuss' it.
What the fuck does nixon have
> to do with my response?
can't you read?
didn't you understand your own post?
Are you comparing a B&E to what happened on 911?
are you calling what nixon did a B&E?
Are you a total jackass?
I
> said, what fucking rhetoric and hype are you talking about?
the obvious implication was any and all rhetoric and hype.
can't you comprehend?
With no answer
> to that question should I consider that recent events are the reason for
the
> original post? What the fuck do you think? "Capture the guilty", guilty
of
> what? The "guilty" people are dead. What the fuck are you trying to say?
> Perhaps you mean capture the accomplices? And do what with them?
this is so dumb I think you just need to reread the reply.
several times.
with help.
> "stupid nonsensical reactionary crap"? Yeah, your right fuckstick, I'm
> reacting to 3025 dead people...how the fuck do you react to it?
you're focusing on 9/11.. I wasn't. again.. go read the post.
get a tutor.
You are one
> of those dicks who thinks that maybe we've made these people mad and now
they don't like us.. who the fuck cares?
I care very deeply about how my countrys foreign policy affects other
people, if that's what you mean.
As to being a dick.. come on over. *s*
Where do you get the fucking idea
> that we have to try fucking imbeciles that are targeting us?
Everything I've ever thought about justice is my source.
They know one
> language. Do you even know what the fuck you are talking about?
Yes, but I wasn't talking about them.. I was talking about how stupid your
post was. and how stupid your ideas are.
Which you've now proven time and again.
> "Can't remember anything else"...what the fuck else should I be
remembering
> asshole?
Nothing. I don't believe you can.
> You must be one of these enlightened dicks who think because you don't use
> verbs such as "kill" that you are something...your not shit...in fact you
> probably suck as a guitar player
Come over and suck me.
> now, shut the fuck up and go back to practicing scales...
grow up. learn to read. study the constitution.
and then.. fuck off!
Twang!
mark scialabba
Mo_ron_Hubbard <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VSlg9.128131$ja.19...@twister.columbus.rr.com...
> Question authority? Of course! Undermine authority? Never! Not here,
not
> anytime.
So what good is the questioning?
>What hype and what rhetoric are you speaking about? Iraq? I will
> never believe nor care about those in dinkastan. Those people are raised
as
> kids to hate us. They think it is their duty to kill us.
Haha.... suuuuuuuuuure..... All of "those people" are all out to get us.
>Now I don't want
> to go off on a rant however, I believe all Americans should only die of
> natural causes.
But of course only americans, right?
>Not by being ran over by a 747. Unfortunately, their is a
> part of the worlds population who doesn't see it that way. When I make my
> decisions on topics such as should we invade Iraq I'm not going to base it
> on the opinion of the french or any others who have short memories. I
will
> base it on fact. Here is a fact: saddams 15 seconds are about up.
>
So you based your opinion on Iraq that we should invade because he willl be
invaded? What?
> 911 can happen again in this country and if we aren't on the offensive IT
> WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.
So we should go around attacking countries? How does that stop terrorism?
>Don't mean to upset any of the pacifists in this ng
> however, I've seen enough sadness on the tv the last few days. I don't
want
> to see it again. I want Mr. Bush to find them all and render them unable
to
> attack us again. In other words kill the motherfuckers!
>
> Are we clear?
>
No, you seem a little unclear.
Mo_ron_Hubbard
typical shithead, you respond with no answers
"The Colemans" <twa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yWrg9.3643$Le2.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Mo_ron_Hubbard
"mark scialabba" <scia...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:9msg9.121$%e2.12...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
mark scialabba
Mo_ron_Hubbard <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message
news:88tg9.129902$ja.19...@twister.columbus.rr.com...
Mo_ron_Hubbard
CompUser
"The Colemans" wrote ...
>
> you're focusing on 9/11.. I wasn't. again.. go read the post.
Brother, it's time you did...
Steve
Mike C.
"CompUser" <steve762u...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Tdzg9.3695$rJ3.2...@kent.svc.tds.net...
Do you guys know what "e-mail" is? What exactly is the purpose of airing
this crap in a public forum when you've obviously got a jones for each
other? Get a room, fercrissakes.
CompUser
"Mike C." wrote ...
>
> Do you guys know what "e-mail" is? What exactly is the purpose of airing
> this crap in a public forum when you've obviously got a jones for each
> other? Get a room, fercrissakes.
Welcome to A Usenet Alt-Hierarchy Group, Mike!
Steve
Lord Valve
Scialabba the Torch wrote:
> Dude, you really are a moron.
And you're a terrorist, by your own admission.
No contest.
Lord Valve
American
-=lemmy loud=-
Wow....Ive been alive for 4 & 1/2 decades and have heard the above in every one.
I subscribe to "silent anarchy".....their laws dont apply to me. I do whatever I
want to do anyway. If you are reasonably smart, dont hurt or bother your
fellow man, even faking respect for stuff you dont believe in, you too will find
that there is nothing you cant do just by being smart about it.
Do I want a bunch of sub-intellected cro-mags attached to my cause........No.
Ill just keep doing whatever I want to do, quietly.
But by all means please keep doing stuff like this, even loudly in public too.......
By becoming such an easy target you will help keep the Authorities you
are obssessed with questioning attentions off of me while I am doing anything I feel
like doing.
The Colemans
No, it's not.
What you call focus I call hysteria.
Twang!
Albert van Schroenen
oh, you guys.
this hateful chest-beating is going out around the world. are you trying to
recruit a few more terrorists to the anti-american cause, or what?
virtually the whole world shares your pain about 9/11. even russia, china
and most islamic countries did not object when you waded into afghanistan.
it was a legitimate response, even if you did kill three times more
civilians than died in the world trade center. and carpet the place with
cluster bombs, which for years to come will maim civilians, often children,
when they handle the 10% of bomblets that fail to explode.
but iraq is not the same kettle of fish. many non-americans, including me,
agree that saddam is a ruthless maniac with the potential to be very
dangerous, and quite possibly he should be removed, but nobody says he had
anything to do with 9/11.
many people would argue that the proposed attack has little to do with 9/11
and much to do with the u.s. arms and oil industries, not to mention dubya's
political standing at home.
saddam's fate ought to be a matter for the international community as
embodied by the united nations.
if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam a hero of the muslim
world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to last the next forty years. the
attack will be seen as typical arrogant u.s. bullying, bitterly resented in
all the usual fanatical quarters. osama bin laden, if he's alive, must be
rubbing his hands and hoping you will just do it. a reaction like this is
probably exactly what he intended.
it will only make things worse. already much of the world finds america
distasteful.
don't be so surprised.
your government props up brutal and corrupt regimes wherever it suits your
"national interest" - notably, in the present context, in the oil-rich arab
world. your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
countless victims of covert action.
you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the earth
while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.
while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and premature
death.
while paying lip service to sovereignty, you threaten even your allies to
coerce them into toeing your ludicrously counterproductive line on the war
on drugs.
your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
and national self-esteem. you churn out third-rate movies and embarrassing
television shows that end up dominating foreign stations because, past their
sell-by date, they're cheaper than home-brewed programs. your fast-food
chains damage local cuisines and help export america's obesity.
you think guns are cool.
the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both in
absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than anywhere
else except china, iran and saudi arabia.
the rest of the world has some fair resentments about america. don't
provide more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 is the way to guarantee
future tragedies, not prevent them.
so is the united states all bad? no! yours is a vast, heterogeneous
country that produces many of the best people in every possible field. you
make some great music and even a few great movies. you have an inspiring
constitution and many progressive ideas. individually, many of you are
wonderful people who do not conform to the ugly stereotypes.
there is a lot to love about the u.s., and it would be good if,
collectively, you could display more of that side of your country to the
world. and perhaps elect the occasional non-gangster for president.
+0:-)
Albert van Schroenen schrieb:
> posting saved and forwarded
>
thank you, Albert !
Flonz
<Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote:
>Twang, go back and read what I wrote asswipe. What the fuck does nixon have
>to do with my response? Are you comparing a B&E to what happened on 911? I
>said, what fucking rhetoric and hype are you talking about? With no answer
>to that question should I consider that recent events are the reason for the
>original post? What the fuck do you think? "Capture the guilty", guilty of
>what? The "guilty" people are dead. What the fuck are you trying to say?
>Perhaps you mean capture the accomplices? And do what with them?
>
>"stupid nonsensical reactionary crap"? Yeah, your right fuckstick, I'm
>reacting to 3025 dead people...how the fuck do you react to it?
This makes me sick. You are reacting to a 3025. But other people can't
react to all the deaths caused by "Americans"?
Let's ALL die from a natural death, not only Americans...
Flonz
> You are one
>of those dicks who thinks that maybe we've made these people mad and now
>they don't like us...who the fuck cares.
ps-obviously somebody made you mad...who the fuck cares
Albert van Schroenen
oh, you guys.
this hateful chest-beating is going out around the world. are you trying to
recruit a few more terrorists to the anti-american cause, or what?
virtually the whole world shares your pain about 9/11. even russia, china
and the islamic countries did not object when you waded into afghanistan.
it was a legitimate response, even if you did kill three times more
civilians than died in the world trade center. and even if you did carpet
the place with cluster bombs, which for years to come will maim civilians,
often children, when they handle the 7% of bomblets that fail to explode.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/CBAfgh1116.htm
but iraq is a different kettle of fish. although many non-americans,
including me, agree that saddam is a ruthless maniac with the potential to
be very dangerous, and quite possibly should be removed, nobody says he had
anything to do with 9/11.
many people would argue that the proposed attack has little to do with 9/11
and much to do with the u.s. arms and oil industries, not to mention dubya's
political capital at home.
saddam's fate ought to be a matter for the international community as
embodied by the united nations.
if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam the hero of the muslim
world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to poison the next forty years.
the attack will be seen as typical arrogant u.s. bullying, bitterly resented
in all the usual fanatical quarters. osama bin laden, if he's alive, must
be rubbing his hands and hoping you will Just Do It.
it will only make things worse. already much of the world finds america
distasteful.
don't be so surprised.
your government props up brutal and corrupt regimes wherever it suits your
"national interest" - notably, in the present context, the oil-rich arab
world. your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
countless victims of covert action. it forgives every abuse by its client
israel.
you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the earth
while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.
while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and premature
death.
no wonder they need to sell you drugs.
and then, while paying lip service to sovereignty, you threaten even your
allies to coerce them into toeing your ludicrously counterproductive line on
the War on Drugs. War on Terrorism, anybody?
your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
and identities, provoking indignation. you churn out third-rate movies and
embarrassing television shows that end up dominating foreign stations
because, mass-produced and past their sell-by date, they're cheaper than
home-brewed programs. your fast-food chains damage local cuisines and
export america's obesity.
you think guns are cool.
the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both in
absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than anywhere
else except china, iran and saudi arabia.
yet you claim to champion democracy and human rights. hypocrisy stinks.
so the rest of the world harbours some fair resentments against america.
don't provide any more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 will guarantee
future tragedies, not prevent them.
so is the united states all bad? no. yours is a vast, heterogeneous
country that produces many of the best people in every possible field. you
make some great music and even a few great movies. you have an inspiring
constitution and many progressive ideas. individually, many of you are
wonderful people who do not conform to the ugly stereotypes.
there is a lot to love about the u.s.a.
collectively, do try to display more of that side of your country to the
world, and perhaps elect the occasional non-gangster for president.
Adam Cook
"Albert van Schroenen" <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> virtually the whole world shares your pain about 9/11. even russia, china
> and most islamic countries did not object when you waded into afghanistan.
> it was a legitimate response, even if you did kill three times more
> civilians than died in the world trade center.
Excuse me? Where are you getting these numbers from?
- Adam
zspazz
Very well put........
Thanks Albert!!!!
To The World:
We (the US) really aren't all as self centered as the retarded "chest
beaters" in this thread would seem to indicate.
m
(who hopes we learn to practice what we preach)
Lord Valve
Albert van Schroenen wrote:
> > In other words kill the motherfuckers!
>
> oh, you guys.
Fuck you. OK? If you don't want to help,
stand aside and we'll deal with it. Stick your
one-world socialist horseshit up your communist
ass.
Lord Valve
American
Elvis Paisley
That's right, even though born in the USA, I was trasported all over the
world as a military brat and now consider myself a lifeform from planet
earth presently residing in the North American landmass. And am certainly
not proud of our hypocritical, power hungry, Constitution eroding crooked
government.
I simply can't believe we are going to be the aggressors with a pre-emptive
attack against Iraq.
Saddam may be a madman, but I think he's mad at us for fucking with him and
his country and his country's resources and is basically doing what any
leader of any country would do - defend their own country. Gee, it's ok that
the US has enough weapons of mass destruction to knock out the whole planet
and probably take it out of orbit, but Iraq is not allowed to have hand
grenades or other means to defend their sovereign state?
Remember "Operation Desert Scam"? From what I understand there is a huge
pool of oil under Kuwait AND Iraq. But Kuwait was pumping it out more
efficiently and quicker. So Iraq engaged Kuwait in a border war - the kind
of border war arab nations have been having for centuries. BUT, since the
Bush family had finacial interests in Kuwait's oil operation, there was this
big pretense of defending our "ally" even if it was a dictatorship and not a
fellow democracy.
However now, the USA has a bigger enemy. And that is John Ascroft. This
bastard basically wrote the so-called "Patriot Act" and our Congress passed
it without even reading it as a response to the latest terrorism. It is a
complete abuse of the 4th Amendment. Environmentalists are now designated as
terrorists as well as anyone who publicly disagrees with any of our
goverment's policies. In it is stated that the police can arrest anyone
without any probable cause and keep them locked up indefinitely. It has
granted that the FBI can go into your home while you are away and search
your house. Surveilance cameras will be placed everywhere.
This is not the America I grew up with, learned it's history and pledged
allegience to. Now it's home of the bellicose, land of the restricted.
Ever see or read "The Handmaid's Tale"?
EP
"Albert van Schroenen" <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3d839...@news1.mweb.co.za...
Elvis Paisley
"Lard Willy" <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in his all too familar ugly
american style of assigning the designation "commie" to anyone who either
doesn't agree with him or does not want to be an ugly belligerent type of
brainwashed simian like him and instead prefers to evolve into a more humane
and universal lifeforce who would like to make the world a better place
in message news:3D83C8CA...@ix.netcom.com...
> Fuck you. OK? If you don't want to help,
> stand aside and we'll deal with it. Stick your
> one-world socialist horseshit up your communist
> ass.
>
> Lord Valve
> Ugly American
>
Lord Valve
wrote it all down in a tear-stained letter:
>(hippie shit) to evolve into a more humane
>and universal lifeforce who would like to make the world a better place
>(hippie shit)
Go stand on the corner and hand out posies, son. Have a Coke
and a smile. Teach the world to sing (in perfect har-mo-neeeeeee....)
and rev up that solar-powered moped and head for the woods to
commune with the bears and the bees. Meanwhile, Al Qaida is
working on putting a nuke up your hippie ass. Lucky for you we
have some folks who are ready to deal with it. Hell, they just
popped five of the bastards in Buffalo. How many you think
y'all got down in the Big Greasy? You think you can hand 'em a
smile and a bowl of file gumbo and they'll leave you alone?
Wake up, asshole. Your life is on the line, worthless though it is.
Jeezuz on a Harley, what a loser.
Lord Valve
American
"God puke on the US fuckin A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
- Elvis Paisley, 06/15/02 -
"...you brought up a lot of good points, but it's time for
me to go and I've had a few beerskis that now have affected
my interest in trying to think of replies to your different
points." - Elvis Paisley, 04/27/02 -
"The flag is only a symbol. What about what it represents?
Freedom to eat, consume, pollute, excrete? And do it all
over the place? Maybe there should be 50 brown turds instead
of stars."
- Elvis Paisley, 08/14/02 -
Albert van Schroenen
Lord Valve <LORD_...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:dlRg9.153$zk2.8...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
RonSonic
<a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>but iraq is not the same kettle of fish. many non-americans, including me,
>agree that saddam is a ruthless maniac with the potential to be very
>dangerous, and quite possibly he should be removed, but nobody says he had
>anything to do with 9/11.
I took out the trash yesterday. It had nothing to do with 9/11 either.
Saddam should go. Whether 9/11 happened or not, Saddam should go.
>saddam's fate ought to be a matter for the international community as
>embodied by the united nations.
Which has passed a number of mandates and binding resolutions - the
correct reading of which is Saddam should go.
>if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam a hero of the muslim
>world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to last the next forty years.
Only until he loses. Again.
>the
>attack will be seen as typical arrogant u.s. bullying, bitterly resented in
>all the usual fanatical quarters. osama bin laden, if he's alive, must be
>rubbing his hands and hoping you will just do it. a reaction like this is
>probably exactly what he intended.
As in Afghanistan, they should be careful what they ask for.
>your government props up brutal and corrupt regimes wherever it suits your
>"national interest" - notably, in the present context, in the oil-rich arab
>world.
And right now the most brutal and corrupt regime is Saddam's. Until
late last year it was the Taliban. Figure in about a year whatever
tyrant then finds himself running the most corrupt and brutal regime
should be looking over his shoulder.
>your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
>such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
>countless victims of covert action.
"Inconvenient" is that a new euphemism for criminal. We don't like
those types, we're happy to take them out.
>you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the earth
>while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.
We didn't backtrack, we don't want anything to do with it. While it
was being discussed we politely stayed at the table until we saw which
way it was going and then excused ourselves.
>while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
>your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and premature
>death.
I'm sorry, didn't notice that we were the only country capable of
buying imports. Talk to your maximum leader at the EU.
>your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
>and national self-esteem.
Hey, if you've got a cultural tradition that can be undone by a mouse
and Beavis and Butthead reruns you weren't bolted together real tight
in the first place.
>you churn out third-rate movies and embarrassing
>television shows that end up dominating foreign stations because, past their
>sell-by date, they're cheaper than home-brewed programs. your fast-food
>chains damage local cuisines and help export america's obesity.
Then don't buy the shit. People buy this stuff because they like it,
it's fun, and tasty.
>you think guns are cool.
So are fast cars, sexy guitars and space shuttles.
>the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both in
>absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than anywhere
>else except china, iran and saudi arabia.
What, now you're saying we don't have a lot of assholes here?
>the rest of the world has some fair resentments about america. don't
>provide more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 is the way to guarantee
>future tragedies, not prevent them.
We won't kill 'em all. Only their leaders. You know the corrupt and
brutal ones you were talking about earlier.
Ron
RonSonic
wrote:
SHHHhhhhhhhhhh.
Don't give it away. These morons will only misuse the power and the
Mizz Grundies of the world will call Ashcroft to see if there isn't
something he could do.
Ron
Albert van Schroenen
Elvis Paisley <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote:
> Thank you Albert. My sentiments exactly even though I'm a gringo yank.
nice to meet you. i did say you were a heterogeneous lot.
> That's right, even though born in the USA, I was trasported all over the
> world as a military brat and now consider myself a lifeform from planet
> earth presently residing in the North American landmass.
couldn't agree more. it's the only non-antisocial way to think.
> Gee, it's ok that
> the US has enough weapons of mass destruction to knock out the whole
planet
> and probably take it out of orbit, but Iraq is not allowed to have hand
> grenades or other means to defend their sovereign state?
it does seem unbalanced, yes. but iraq is evil, whereas the u.s. can be
trusted to use its weapons only to defend freedom and democracy.
> Remember "Operation Desert Scam"? From what I understand there is a huge
> pool of oil under Kuwait AND Iraq. But Kuwait was pumping it out more
> efficiently and quicker. So Iraq engaged Kuwait in a border war - the kind
> of border war arab nations have been having for centuries.
hmm. it was rather more than a border war: a full-scale invasion and
occupation.
> BUT, since the
> Bush family had finacial interests in Kuwait's oil operation, there was
this
> big pretense of defending our "ally" even if it was a dictatorship and not
a
> fellow democracy.
that could well be true. the bushes would have diversified out of texas.
> However now, the USA has a bigger enemy. And that is John Ascroft. This
> bastard basically wrote the so-called "Patriot Act" and our Congress
passed
> it without even reading it as a response to the latest terrorism. It is a
> complete abuse of the 4th Amendment.
the same sort of thing happened a few years ago in britain, ostensibly in
response to the comically mild threat posed by rave parties and new-age
travellers. the new law, the criminal justice act of 1994, did away with
the right to remain silent and imposed restrictions on protests, among other
things. but it appears your patriot act is considerably more repressive.
it appears to be the direction the western democracies are going.
> This is not the America I grew up with, learned it's history and pledged
> allegience to. Now it's home of the bellicose, land of the restricted.
good luck.
> Ever see or read "The Handmaid's Tale"?
i read it, yes. so the dystopia is upon us.
Lumpy Rutherford
What are you doing about getting ready for that big blast from all the
terrorists that are out to get you?
Do you have your property mined and booby trapped? Are you and your family
residing in your fallout shelter? Everyone have gas masks and body armour?
Did you bulletproof your windows in the house and autos? Got your Geiger
counter fired up? I'm sure you've stockpiled a bunch of bullets. But what if
they come after you with tanks?
Lump
"Lord Valve" <LORD_...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:dlRg9.153$zk2.8...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Elvis Paisley
>
> Elvis Paisley <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Albert. My sentiments exactly even though I'm a gringo yank.
>
> nice to meet you. i did say you were a heterogeneous lot.
>
> > That's right, even though born in the USA, I was trasported all over the
> > world as a military brat and now consider myself a lifeform from planet
> > earth presently residing in the North American landmass.
>
> couldn't agree more. it's the only non-antisocial way to think.
>
> > Gee, it's ok that
> > the US has enough weapons of mass destruction to knock out the whole
> planet
> > and probably take it out of orbit, but Iraq is not allowed to have hand
> > grenades or other means to defend their sovereign state?
>
> it does seem unbalanced, yes. but iraq is evil, whereas the u.s. can be
> trusted to use its weapons only to defend freedom and democracy.
As in a pre-emptive attack? Sorry, I don't define that as defending. As has
been with economic sanctions that leave the majority of the population
starving? As in setting up or supporting puppet dictators to get cheap
prices for natural resources of these countries?
> > Remember "Operation Desert Scam"? From what I understand there is a huge
> > pool of oil under Kuwait AND Iraq. But Kuwait was pumping it out more
> > efficiently and quicker. So Iraq engaged Kuwait in a border war - the
kind
> > of border war arab nations have been having for centuries.
>
> hmm. it was rather more than a border war: a full-scale invasion and
> occupation.
Oh, like the phoney incubators stories?
> > BUT, since the
> > Bush family had finacial interests in Kuwait's oil operation, there was
> this
> > big pretense of defending our "ally" even if it was a dictatorship and
not
> a
> > fellow democracy.
>
> that could well be true. the bushes would have diversified out of texas.
Check out this link:
http://www.globalcomment.com/current_affairs/article_34.asp
EP
Adam Cook
>
> Elvis Paisley <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote:
> the same sort of thing happened a few years ago in britain, ostensibly in
> response to the comically mild threat posed by rave parties and new-age
> travellers. the new law, the criminal justice act of 1994, did away with
> the right to remain silent and imposed restrictions on protests, among
other
> things. but it appears your patriot act is considerably more repressive.
>
> it appears to be the direction the western democracies are going.
I myself am not worried about the so-called "Patriot Act". I think slippery
slope arguments are overblown. But I read an article the other day that
made a depressing and interesting point. Over the course of modern
history(tha BC-AD crossover point), slightly less than 5% of the worlds
governments have been voluntary, meaning created by the people and run by
the people through elected representatives. And to get to that 5% number,
you had to count Tudor England, which would hardly be considered a democracy
by todays standards. It'd be nice to think that freedom and representative
government represent man's natural state, but history says totalinarianism
is what we usually have.
- Adam
Albert van Schroenen
news:h8q7ou0v51fe5imfb...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:37:17 +0200, "Albert van Schroenen"
> <a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> I took out the trash yesterday. It had nothing to do with 9/11 either.
> Saddam should go. Whether 9/11 happened or not, Saddam should go.
then why is bush citing 9/11 as the reason to take out the trash?
> Which has passed a number of mandates and binding resolutions - the
> correct reading of which is Saddam should go.
apparently there are differing interpretations, but that's not the point.
the point is that you can't defeat terrorism like this. attacking saddam at
this historical juncture, when the israel-palestine debacle has already
quickened the blood, will only inflame the islamic world, which has
adequately demonstrated that, sufficiently roused, it has no shortage of
young men willing to kill themselves to kill you.
in the end, you can either:
- make peace with islam and its radicals. their grievances are not crazy,
even if their methods are. don't assume out of hand that it can't be done;
or
- spend the next generation waging a low-intensity war against guerrillas
and terrorists harboured by a sympathetic population of more than 1 billion
people. that will be fun.
> >if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam a hero of the muslim
> >world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to last the next forty years.
>
> Only until he loses. Again.
you delude yourself if you imagine that terrorism can be defeated by
military means. even the nazis couldn't snuff out the resistance in france
or yugoslavia. you're going to go one better than the nazis?
> >the
> >attack will be seen as typical arrogant u.s. bullying, bitterly resented
in
> >all the usual fanatical quarters. osama bin laden, if he's alive, must
be
> >rubbing his hands and hoping you will just do it. a reaction like this
is
> >probably exactly what he intended.
>
> As in Afghanistan, they should be careful what they ask for.
martyrdom breeds martyrdom in certain quarters.
> >your government props up brutal and corrupt regimes wherever it suits
your
> >"national interest" - notably, in the present context, in the oil-rich
arab
> >world.
>
> And right now the most brutal and corrupt regime is Saddam's. Until
> late last year it was the Taliban. Figure in about a year whatever
> tyrant then finds himself running the most corrupt and brutal regime
> should be looking over his shoulder.
saddam's was also the most brutal and corrupt regime back in the 1980s, when
the u.s. was arming him against iran. do you really think the u.s. is going
to risk its oil by unseating the unpopular despots who rule much of the arab
world and underlie the bin laden phenomenon?
> >your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
> >such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
> >countless victims of covert action.
>
> "Inconvenient" is that a new euphemism for criminal. We don't like
> those types, we're happy to take them out.
they were criminal all along. what changed was the american cost/benefit
analysis.
> >you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the
earth
> >while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.
>
> We didn't backtrack, we don't want anything to do with it. While it
> was being discussed we politely stayed at the table until we saw which
> way it was going and then excused ourselves.
not everybody saw it that way. but even if you're right, so what?
> >while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
> >your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and
premature
> >death.
>
> I'm sorry, didn't notice that we were the only country capable of
> buying imports. Talk to your maximum leader at the EU.
the e.u. is just as culpable. that doesn't excuse the u.s. double-standard.
> >your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
> >and national self-esteem.
>
> Hey, if you've got a cultural tradition that can be undone by a mouse
> and Beavis and Butthead reruns you weren't bolted together real tight
> in the first place.
parts of humanity are fragile, just like parts of the earth, when confronted
with modern steamrollers.
> >you churn out third-rate movies and embarrassing
> >television shows that end up dominating foreign stations because, past
their
> >sell-by date, they're cheaper than home-brewed programs. your fast-food
> >chains damage local cuisines and help export america's obesity.
>
> Then don't buy the shit. People buy this stuff because they like it,
> it's fun, and tasty.
i don't buy the shit. but you're right, it seduces people for exactly those
reasons.
> >the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both
in
> >absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than
anywhere
> >else except china, iran and saudi arabia.
>
> What, now you're saying we don't have a lot of assholes here?
i thought i said you did.
> >the rest of the world has some fair resentments about america. don't
> >provide more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 is the way to guarantee
> >future tragedies, not prevent them.
>
> We won't kill 'em all. Only their leaders. You know the corrupt and
> brutal ones you were talking about earlier.
don't forget the collateral damage.
Albert van Schroenen
news:SgSg9.124956$2L.62...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> > > Gee, it's ok that
> > > the US has enough weapons of mass destruction to knock out the whole
> > planet
> > > and probably take it out of orbit, but Iraq is not allowed to have
hand
> > > grenades or other means to defend their sovereign state?
> >
> > it does seem unbalanced, yes. but iraq is evil, whereas the u.s. can be
> > trusted to use its weapons only to defend freedom and democracy.
>
> As in a pre-emptive attack? Sorry, I don't define that as defending. As
has
> been with economic sanctions that leave the majority of the population
> starving? As in setting up or supporting puppet dictators to get cheap
> prices for natural resources of these countries?
i was being sarcastic.
> > hmm. it was rather more than a border war: a full-scale invasion and
> > occupation.
>
> Oh, like the phoney incubators stories?
those were phoney, sure, but the occupation was a fact.
> Check out this link:
> http://www.globalcomment.com/current_affairs/article_34.asp
nice quote there:
"Why, of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the
leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple
matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ...Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That
is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger."
--Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II
CompUser
"The Colemans" wrote ...
>
> > "The Colemans" wrote ...
> > > you're focusing on 9/11.. I wasn't. again.. go read the post.
> >
> > Brother, it's time you did...
> >
>
> What you call focus I call hysteria.
> Twang!
Then continue to sleep...perchance, to dream!
Steve
Zwing!
Lord Valve
RonSonic wrote:
>
>
> >your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
> >and national self-esteem.
>
> Hey, if you've got a cultural tradition that can be undone by a mouse
> and Beavis and Butthead reruns you weren't bolted together real tight
> in the first place.
ROFLMBFAO!! HAWWW!!!! <whew> Spit take! ;-)
Yeah, we got armed thugs over there makin' these poor
Euro-weenies buy our stuff. Hell, French music sucks so
bad, they hadda pass a damn *law* to make their own
radio stations play the shit instead of American music.
> >you churn out third-rate movies and embarrassing
> >television shows that end up dominating foreign stations because, past their
> >sell-by date, they're cheaper than home-brewed programs. your fast-food
> >chains damage local cuisines and help export america's obesity.
>
> Then don't buy the shit. People buy this stuff because they like it,
> it's fun, and tasty.
Like I said - the CIA is standin' in all their shops with
machine guns, making sure all the Eeeeeeeewwwwww
pinkos buy shitty American stuff. Hmmmm....maybe
they're just embarassed at their lack of sales resistance.
Sheep-like, they eschew their own hallowed traditions
at the drop of a Madison Avenue hat, preferring the
Big Mac to the haute cuisine Euro-slop. (Maybe they're
so sick of overcooked mystery meat swimming in grease
and garlic that even a dried-out McDonald's burger looks
good in comparison. Ya think?) "Fries with that?"
> >you think guns are cool.
>
> So are fast cars, sexy guitars and space shuttles.
Hell, I have *lots* of guns. Big ones, small ones,
loud ones, some with silencers (oops - I didn't say
that...shhhhhhhh....), revolvers, semi-autos, pump-
action shotguns...man, I can *accessorize* with
'em...lemme see, now - today, it's blue jeans
and a T-shirt...hmmm....I'm feelin' adventurous,
how about the S&W .357 Magnum snub-nose with
the rosewood grips? Just right for makin' spineless
Euro-weenies buy shitty American videotapes. "Hey,
YOU! That's right, you. C'mere, Froggy. No, DON'T
plunk your magic twanger, we have *laws* against
that shit here. See this? It's "Die Hard," starring
Bruce Willis. Take this over to the checkout and
buy it. Tell 'em the CIA says you get a 40% discount.
Pick up some fried pork rinds, a six-pack of Budweiser,
and get your Jerry Lewis-worshippin' ass back to your
hovel and watch it. If you don't, I'm gonna blow your
enormous nose off. Hell, I might just blow your pinky
toe off for target practice. GIT MOVIN'! Yippee Ki-yay,
Mother-Fucker!"
It don't get any better'n this. ;-)
Lord Valve
American (and you can like it or kiss my fat Yank ass)
Lord Valve
Blumb the Dumb shrieked:
> How many terrorists have you turned in, LV?
Counting Scialabba the Torch? Just one.
You're next, though.
> What are you doing about getting ready for that big blast from all the
> terrorists that are out to get you?
What would you suggest? I mean, I certainly have evac supplies
and plenty of guns and ammo; iodide tabs, whatnot. You?
> Do you have your property mined and booby trapped?
A couple of good coondogs are worth a helluva lot more
than land mines would be. A mosquito couldn't fart in
my yard without them hounds hearin' it.
> Are you and your family
> residing in your fallout shelter?
Naw. If it looks dicey, we have a hidy-hole up in the
Rockies.
> Everyone have gas masks and body armour?
Armor is an encumbrance if you have to move
quickly. Kevlar vests are too damn expensive.
I prefer firepower to passive defenses. Gas is
unlikely - too hard to deploy. Inhalants can be
countered with wet terrycloth. (You really should
bone up on shit like this.) Contact poisons are
indefensible from a civilian standpoint. So are
diseases. Say, speaking of diseases - how about
that West Nile virus, eh? 500 years people been
travelin' to this continent from elsewhere, not one
case of West Nile. Funny how it showed up for
the first time right in the shadow of the United Nations
building, ain't it? Especially since Saddam was
known to have been working on weaponizing it?
Shit, how 'bout dat...
> Did you bulletproof your windows in the house and autos?
Of course not. You have to be able to shoot *out*,
you know.
> Got your Geiger
> counter fired up?
If it becomes necessary, I can build a radiation
detector in less than an hour.
> I'm sure you've stockpiled a bunch of bullets.
Oh,*hell* yes. Around 10,000 rounds, all told.
But 8,000 of 'em are only .22s. Say, did you
know that a Ruger 10/22 is a great antipersonnel
weapon? Uses 10-shot rotary clips, you can slap
a new one in in less than a second. You can carry
a whole shitload of clips in your pocket. Cheap
rifle, too - less than $200. Try it, you'll like it.
> But what if
> they come after you with tanks?
It's not likely that enemy tanks will show up on
the US mainland. Tanks, however, can be
dealt with by civilians. (Ask the Russians
how they dealt with German tanks in WWII.
Cocktail, anyone?) Did you know that if
you're familiar enough with any given model
of tank, you can render it completely useless
with a can of black spray paint? Did you know
that reactive armor can be detonated with a
.50 cal sniper rifle? Gosh, this is fun!
>
>
> Blump the Dump
Albert van Schroenen
Mr <M...@Moose.com> wrote in message
news:s858oug95rp7t7n3f...@4ax.com...
> >this hateful chest-beating is going out around the world. are you trying
to
> >recruit a few more terrorists to the anti-american cause, or what?
>
> which is often racist and nationalistic and xenophobic. Of course the
> usual reply is well do you want to descend to their level? If you
> agree they are so hateful and low too - why the absence of protesting
> posts and protests against that by people like you ? Why ? Because
> though many of the arguments are rooted in seemingly intelligent
> arguments they are really your influenced response to anti-American
> and anti-Israeli propaganda just like the worst brainwashed
> jingoistic American.
america controls the global media. i get much of my news from cnn. most of
the movies and tv shows that i have seen glorify america. the only
anti-american propaganda i ever see is graffiti in muslim neighbourhoods.
> >virtually the whole world shares your pain about 9/11. even russia,
china
> >and the islamic countries did not object when you waded into afghanistan.
>
> Notice the difference. When Russia was extremely anti-American even
> 9/11 would have been totally denounced as a CIA plot - which it was by
> the way by the usual wacko conspiracy buffs and at the very least said
> to be justified as an act against Imperialism. Pure propaganda. And
> European and American Leftists would have responded in sympathy to
> that claim which they did in fact but it was greatly muted in this
> phony "We sympathize but........" Many initial surveys still said
> Chinese and many Europeans and Canadians feel then and even now that
> it was justified to a large degree.
"justified" would be stretching it. "comprehensible", perhaps.
> But why then the muted pretense of sympathy ? Pure politics, its less
> hip with communisn waning as a force. The response is total politics
> then and its now. The only difference is , you are brainwashed by the
> media in your subculture , country, region and the worst jingoists
> here , by ours. But you are as brainwashed.
by whom, exactly?
> I often hear third
> worlders and Europeans incessantly talk about peace and racism when it
> comes to the US and totally ignore it when their own country indulges
> in it. In fact you often see it from the same people - denouncing
> third world imports and immigration into their own country fearful
> their welfare state wont be able to afford them and their unions and
> subsidies will be eroded and yet champion the same thing in the US and
> denounce US attitudes against imports and immigration.
yes, there is hypocrisy there too.
> Why arent you screaming about Chechnya? Or the persecution of muslims
> in China?
i don't see much of a russian or chinese audience on the internet to hear my
views. do you?
> Why did radical muslims try to fly a plane into the Eiffel
> Tower first? Molluccan terrorists threaten to kill a school full of
> children in the Netherlands? Because Eureopeans are so evil?
europe is in a similar geopolitical position to america, yes.
> How do you stop terrorism? By helping them? When there is benign
> tolerance its attacked by the same group. The Afrikaners and
> Apartheid ? Should we have abandoned the boycott/sanctions there?
your present vice-president, dick cheney, vehemently opposed nelson
mandela's release from prison. your boycott was a toothless feelgood
gesture.
> The Nazis , should we have negotiated ? After all they werent
> attacking the US.
and the u.s. wouldn't have entered the war without pearl harbor.
> Many still feel FDR knew about the PH attack and
> led us into the war to help the UK. Wasnt the US evil then too ?
i can't comment on a conspiracy theory.
> Could we claim superiority over the Nazis when we had segregation,
> policies towards American Indians , etc.? So WWII was just another
> scam by a gangster president ?
no, it was hitler who invaded poland, as you might recall.
> Of course you were vehemently protesting the Soviet occupation of
> Afghanistan and the myriads of wars going on in Africa even now . I
> must have missed those.
some of us still hope, perhaps naively, that the people of america have
enough of a conscience to be able to be persuaded. i will tell you that i
have a personal interest in wanting america not to enter an unwinnable war
against islam: i don't want my life restricted by the fear of terrorism and
the totalitarian security it will engender. i'm middle-aged; i won't live
long enough to see the end of it.
> And of course Afghanistan was covered in cluster bombs already and was
> in far worse shape economcially and regards to civil rights and loss
> of life. With the new regime as shown in Frontline , surprisingly
> though it seems extremely shakey still , the future even this early
> looks far better. Hopefully the US and UN will help them clean up the
> cluster bombs and new aid and economic development will flow in now
> instead of the nation being ruled by medieval clerics with complete
> chaos and anarchy reigning in the country.
the deputy prime minister of afghanistan is now one rashid dostum, who
massacred 4,000 surrendered taliban troops within spitting distance of
american forces. the u.s. is simply picking its own bully-boys this time.
> >but iraq is a different kettle of fish. although many non-americans,
> >including me, agree that saddam is a ruthless maniac with the potential
to
> >be very dangerous, and quite possibly should be removed, nobody says he
had
> >anything to do with 9/11.
>
> Actually people do , just like the many accusations you and the Left
> throw at the US as if its a matter fact , not specualtion but they
> just dont have hard proof.
are you so naive as to be unaware that lack of hard proof counts for
something, especially when your government is beating the war drums?
> >many people would argue that the proposed attack has little to do with
9/11
> >and much to do with the u.s. arms and oil industries, not to mention
dubya's
> >political capital at home.
>
> Of course because thats the Zeigeist of Europe and the Left. In other
> subcultures Germany and Frances and other Europ nations are regarded
> as isolationists , having economic ties to oil rich nations which
> cause them downplay military disruptions.
and the u.s. *doesn't* have economic ties to oil-rich nations? come on,
you're just jealous that europe has any at all.
> Just like the Europeans
> accuse the the US of not caring who we deal with as long as we can
> make a buck , Americans accuse Europeans of the same thing . Who cares
> if they oppress and torture their people as long as we get lucrative
> chemical plant and water development deals ! And besides we hate the
> Americans anyway just like UKers hate the French and Germany. Germany
> and the rest of Europeans hate Russians. And everyone hated the
> Japanese when they were thought to be on top. Economic and political
> nationalism is always mixed in with seemingly "rational" analysis.
i am a stateless person. you should try it. it changes your point of view.
> And if I were even more pointed - I would say as many American Jews do
> feel that Husseins acquisition of nuclear or chemical and bio weapons
> could literally be the end of Israel and result in even more cowardice
> in standing up to anything that happens there.
please explain this cowardice.
> After all who cares
> when China and Russia had their slave labor camps? No one on the Left
> cared much only things the West did
there's a reason for that. the west sets itself up as morally superior,
what with its claims of human rights, democracy and all. if you claim to be
saintly, you must expect to be held to that standard.
> Many American Jews feel Europe
> which has seen massive Arabian /muslim immigration is just responding
> to the obvious poltical and economic pressure within their own
> countries. If there was a Jewish population explosion massively
> flooding Europe and the US , obviously universities and the media
> would be siding and pre-occupied with anti-Jewish feelings everywhere
> and on the side of Israel.
what are you talking about?
> One could even go so far as saying -
> recent polls have shown that the "plight of Palestinians" have kind of
> freed people to hate Jews once again.
i suppose you could say that. on the other hand, israel has squandered the
moral capital it gained from the holocaust. at some point you have to judge
the jewish state just like any other state. it is now 57 years later.
> A recent poll this week shows a
> big rise in people in Germany , let alone Russia and other European
> countries where arabic culture has gotten ragingly hip , that Jews
> control everything and at least in Germany that Hitler if it wasnt
> for the holocaust would have been viewed as a great statesman in
> history.
so what? pointing at other bigoted nutcases doesn't prove anything.
> Why then go in? Because they feel its the
> last chance - theres a limtied window before Iraq does get nuclear
> weapons or biological weapons and that would not only be the end of a
> peace process but the end if Israel and possibly an emboldened effort
> at backing terrorists globally.
that is what your government is telling you. it may even be true. show the
world the evidence and let the united nations decide.
> >saddam's fate ought to be a matter for the international community as
> >embodied by the united nations.
>
> And of course if the UN voted for an attack , the same people would be
> outraged and if as predicted its derailed by the Arab community , the
> same problems persist.
it would at least be legitimate. at the moment the u.s. is unblushingly
proposing to break international law. i respect the u.s. constitution and
your country's tradition of justice and democracy. if the u.s. becomes an
international outlaw, the world returns to the dark ages.
> And as shown in recent cheesy Hollywood films like BlackHawk Down ,
> theres a sentiment in the US that the poltiics of the UN put American
> soldiers in danger when they are under the command of the UN.
excuse me. in wartime, soldiers are in danger. that's how it works.
> As note here your argument about the UN is a smokescreen:
>
> UN-EXPLODED CLUSTER BOMBS DROPPED BY NATO REMAIN IN KOSOVO & Serb
> Yugoslavia (estimates M Dobbs of the Wash Post). Security remains the
> primary problem in Kosovo as several mine & unexploded ordnance
> casualties occur each day, & as retribution killings occur in the
> major towns daily. Under the OSCE's auspices, an intl force of 3,100
> police will be deployed, & some of them will be heavily armed, but
> demining has been slow.
>
> Not a big difference , as far I can see.
what are you driving at? are cluster bombs in kosovo better than cluster
bombs in afghanistan?
> >if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam the hero of the
muslim
> >world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to poison the next forty years.
> >the attack will be seen as typical arrogant u.s. bullying, bitterly
resented
> >in all the usual fanatical quarters. osama bin laden, if he's alive,
must
> >be rubbing his hands and hoping you will Just Do It.
>
> Weve heard that argument over and over again. The same could be said
> for Hitler.
yes, that is a point worth noting.
> It was said it was impossible to fight against Iraq in
> the initial Gulf War. It was said the Arab world would rise up. An
> Arab coalition helping the US before the Gulf War , the concept it
> self would have been laughed at by most people.
let's see how easy it is to build an arab coalition this time.
> Many said like Iraq , Afghansitan was "different". That the Soviets
> had taken decades and lost. Though nothing ever comes out as cleanly
> as people hope , generally they dont come out as dire too. Terrorists
> , people hate for a variety of reasons and they always will. It
> doesnt matter much often times if you try to make peace or war.
> Sometimes it does lead to worsening conditions , sometimes it doesnt.
which does call into question the very purpose of going to war, doesn't it?
you seem to be voting for war on the grounds that it won't make much
difference either way.
> As I mentioned , the myth that the US is doing things and the rest of
> the world isnt , is such a lame argument , and thats why there are no
> terrorist attacks , is proven false even by a cursory look at the the
> media with Muslim radicals operating in the Philipinnes, China ,
> Russia, France and lots even in the UK - in which many were nullified.
i don't believe i subscribed to any such myth.
> A recent report talked about the supposed benign 90's era in which
> missles were fired at the Sudan and nurmerous small attacks against
> Iraq by aircraft , the BlackHawk Down episode , Haiti and Kosovo and a
> ruthless policy of using Eqyptian and other middle east secret police
> to kidnap and torture muslim extremists in coutnries where it was
> allowed , was often credited for keeping things relatively quiet and
> even then there was the earlier WTC bombing , African Embassy bombing
> and many plots which were foiled.
you're confused. you're saying it was a good idea to support regimes that
torture people, and then you point out that terrorist atrocities occurred
anyway.
> >it will only make things worse. already much of the world finds america
> >distasteful.
>
> Only at the moment. Tomorrow it could be Russia if they rise in
> economic power or a particularlry grisly incident is publicized about
> Chechnya or China or Germany or the UK , etc. Everyone hates
> everyone , its human nature and tries to scrabble on top and they
> particularly hate anyone perceived to be on top.
american global hegemony is a fact, not a perception. of course you're
right: nobody likes to be pushed around by foreigners. if america threw its
weight about less, it would create less resentment.
> >don't be so surprised.
> >
> >your government props up brutal and corrupt regimes wherever it suits
your
> >"national interest" - notably, in the present context, the oil-rich arab
> >world. your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
> >such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
> >countless victims of covert action. it forgives every abuse by its
client
> >israel.
>
> Then by all means we should attack Saddam and get rid of him .
> Its so wonderful when people like you argue that American puppet
> leaders should be overthrown with whatever violence often backed by
> Russia and China in the past and other unsavory anti-American states.
> But if the same leader is then attacked by the US "for being
> inconvenient" - its a sin.
i'm not suggesting overthrowing anybody. what i am suggesting is that you
refrain from propping up bad regimes that stay in control thanks to american
military hardware, american intelligence and american foreign-policy
interventions.
> >you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the
earth
> >while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.
>
> And I thought you were merely a hack but now you are decending into
> the hoariest cliches , into No-Knowthingess. Of course your
> multi-transnational corporations are the goodguys. You know the ones
> who give you all the material comforts in your own country. The ones
> who probably helped Hitler or Stalin and also sold and aided various
> unsavory leaders across the nation. Im glad to see your country and
> others have never sold anything to any of the African states and
> Middle Eastern states with questionable histories.
nobody's transnational corporations are good guys. it's just that you have
more of them than anybody else, and you impose the fewest restrictions on
their behaviour.
> >while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
> >your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and
premature
> >death.
>
> Have you read any books or articles lately?
> Check Europes trade record with the huge trade deficit in the US.
> Mostly with China and Japan and Europe , Canada. And which many US
> and Chinas and Europes things get outsourced now to the third world.
your trade deficit is a deficit with other first-world countries, as you
say. outsourcing production to the third world is a different matter
altogether. i'm undecided about whether it's a good thing or not. in the
short term, at any rate, it's nothing but sweatshops.
i was referring to the barriers you and the e.u. erect against the
importation of farm goods, which account for the biggest part of poor
countries' economic output.
> >no wonder they need to sell you drugs.
>
> Gee maybe we should legalize drugs another popular Leftist bromide ,
> but then that would be depriving the third world of revenue wouldnt
> it? Gee these cheap and easy recipes dont work out so well I see.
not if you gave the third world a fair chance in other ways.
> >and then, while paying lip service to sovereignty, you threaten even your
> >allies to coerce them into toeing your ludicrously counterproductive line
on
> >the War on Drugs. War on Terrorism, anybody?
>
> Wow , did I call it or not? So predictable.
i don't believe that a proposition is disproved by predicting it. will you
be equating logic with communism next?
> >your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
> >and identities, provoking indignation. you churn out third-rate movies
and
> >embarrassing television shows that end up dominating foreign stations
> >because, mass-produced and past their sell-by date, they're cheaper than
> >home-brewed programs. your fast-food chains damage local cuisines and
> >export america's obesity.
>
> Every cliche known in the postmodern Leftist Cheap Slogans For Dummies
> book on politics.
ever given them any thought?
> Of course many of the reality shows came from the UK and and many of
> the third rate movies come from Euro directors and have foreign stars
> like Jackie Chan.
you're thinking of the osbournes? i thought they lived in the u.s. the euro
directors? working for hollywood. what do you expect?
> >the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both
in
> >absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than
anywhere
> >else except china, iran and saudi arabia.
>
> And of course Ive read all your anti-chinese posts where , errrr
> somewhere.
what you seem to be saying is this: yes, we have a shameful record in these
matters. but so does china. bugger off and bother china and leave us
alone.
> Of course we dont have a lily white population like in most of Europe
> which is only now beginning to change. Ive heard though that crime is
> expoding in your high immigration centers with grumbling about those
> foreigners.
i'm not european.
> I cant say I shed too many tears for people like Jeffery Daumer. Maybe
> we should send them to your country instead of executing them so you
> can give them a roof and money and rehabilitate them.
get your facts straight. jeffrey dahmer wasn't sentenced to death.
> >so the rest of the world harbours some fair resentments against america.
> >don't provide any more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 will guarantee
> >future tragedies, not prevent them.
>
> Of course ! Thank heavens you will guarantee with your life , that
> ther will no attacks if we dont do anything and perhaps send a few
> billion their way.
all i am saying is that you will encourage terrorism by throwing your weight
about. this perfectly obvious observation seems to be something that many
americans simply will not see.
> >so is the united states all bad? no. yours is a vast, heterogeneous
> >country that produces many of the best people in every possible field.
you
> >make some great music and even a few great movies. you have an inspiring
> >constitution and many progressive ideas. individually, many of you are
> >wonderful people who do not conform to the ugly stereotypes.
>
> Like the ones you regurgitated here.
it amuses me when mainstream-thinking americans accuse those who disagree
with them of lacking original thought - "regurgitation" or "bromides". do
you have no sense of irony?
> >there is a lot to love about the u.s.a.
>
> >collectively, do try to display more of that side of your country to the
> >world, and perhaps elect the occasional non-gangster for president.
>
> Gangster meaning - anything that goes agaisnt the "hip" mentality of
> your subcuture as opposed to say Putin and his war in chechnya, or
> China or the massive unrest in Africa and SE Asia , which you are also
> concerned about , not.
so the war in chechnya is wrong and putin is a gangster. once again, all
you're doing is claiming that the u.s., even when wrong, should be the very
last country to face any criticism. your defensiveness and arrogance are
breathtaking.
RonSonic
<gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote:
>
>"Lard Willy" <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in his all too familar ugly
>american style of assigning the designation "commie" to anyone who either
>doesn't agree with him or does not want to be an ugly belligerent type of
>brainwashed simian like him and instead prefers to evolve into a more humane
>and universal lifeforce who would like to make the world a better place
Evolution moves in the direction of survival - killing off predators,
despite the obvious risks, is highly evolved behavior.
Killing Saddam and the other corporate sponsors of the death cult will
make this world a better place. Ten years from now you will look
around at a much improved world.
Ron
Albert van Schroenen
Lord Valve <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3D84330E...@ix.netcom.com...
RonSonic
<a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>RonSonic <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:h8q7ou0v51fe5imfb...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:37:17 +0200, "Albert van Schroenen"
>> <a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> I took out the trash yesterday. It had nothing to do with 9/11 either.
>> Saddam should go. Whether 9/11 happened or not, Saddam should go.
>
>then why is bush citing 9/11 as the reason to take out the trash?
I read his speech to the UN, he cited UN resolutions as the reason to
take out the trash. There is no doubt that 9/11 has increased the
sense of urgency and has inspired a long hard look at the arrangement
of powers within the Arab world.
>
>> Which has passed a number of mandates and binding resolutions - the
>> correct reading of which is Saddam should go.
>
>apparently there are differing interpretations, but that's not the point.
>the point is that you can't defeat terrorism like this. attacking saddam at
>this historical juncture, when the israel-palestine debacle has already
>quickened the blood, will only inflame the islamic world, which has
>adequately demonstrated that, sufficiently roused, it has no shortage of
>young men willing to kill themselves to kill you.
Saddam is sponsoring conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. He
is paying money for Israeli blood. Removing him will promote peace.
Those confused young men are not the problem, only the raw material
weaponized and used by thugs like Saddam. With those gone, the kids
can get jobs, date, find a life.
>in the end, you can either:
>
>- make peace with islam and its radicals. their grievances are not crazy,
>even if their methods are. don't assume out of hand that it can't be done;
I say we take out the crazies and have a long and happy life with the
rest.
>or
>
>- spend the next generation waging a low-intensity war against guerrillas
>and terrorists harboured by a sympathetic population of more than 1 billion
>people. that will be fun.
No. The other alternative is high-intensity conflict with the
leadership and political structures that promote conflict. Followed by
a highly beneficial and largely peaceable relationship with the rest.
>> >if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam a hero of the muslim
>> >world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to last the next forty years.
>>
>> Only until he loses. Again.
>
>you delude yourself if you imagine that terrorism can be defeated by
>military means. even the nazis couldn't snuff out the resistance in france
>or yugoslavia. you're going to go one better than the nazis?
Our entire national history is better than the damn Nazis. There is
absolutely no similarity between our objectives and theirs. They
fought to impose their tyranny, we fight to oppose tyranny. I'd
consider that a significant moral difference, even if you are blind to
such things. It is an immense practical difference - we aren't out to
"snuff resistance."
>> And right now the most brutal and corrupt regime is Saddam's. Until
>> late last year it was the Taliban. Figure in about a year whatever
>> tyrant then finds himself running the most corrupt and brutal regime
>> should be looking over his shoulder.
>
>saddam's was also the most brutal and corrupt regime back in the 1980s, when
>the u.s. was arming him against iran. do you really think the u.s. is going
>to risk its oil by unseating the unpopular despots who rule much of the arab
>world and underlie the bin laden phenomenon?
No, in the 80's Iran was leading the way in pioneering Islamofascist
tyranny - Saddam was just another tin pot dictator whom it was
believed would remain pragmatic and subject to the usual Clausewitzian
persuasions. He seems instead to have gone off toward grandiose
delusion and megalomania.
>> >your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
>> >such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
>> >countless victims of covert action.
>>
>> "Inconvenient" is that a new euphemism for criminal. We don't like
>> those types, we're happy to take them out.
>
>they were criminal all along. what changed was the american cost/benefit
>analysis.
Oh dear. Do you mean that an actual nation has actually based its
foreign policy on practical concerns for its own welfare. I am
shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
>> >you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the
>earth
>> >while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.
>>
>> We didn't backtrack, we don't want anything to do with it. While it
>> was being discussed we politely stayed at the table until we saw which
>> way it was going and then excused ourselves.
>
>not everybody saw it that way. but even if you're right, so what?
So nothing. Kyoto was a schoolyard gang-up on US industry and we won't
play along.
>> >while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
>> >your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and
>premature
>> >death.
>>
>> I'm sorry, didn't notice that we were the only country capable of
>> buying imports. Talk to your maximum leader at the EU.
>
>the e.u. is just as culpable. that doesn't excuse the u.s. double-standard.
No, it is just what nations do. Act in what they perceive to be their
best interests. There is a lot of internal debate here on the subject
and tariffs and trade issues are a routine issue in our politics.
>> >your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
>> >and national self-esteem.
>>
>> Hey, if you've got a cultural tradition that can be undone by a mouse
>> and Beavis and Butthead reruns you weren't bolted together real tight
>> in the first place.
>
>parts of humanity are fragile, just like parts of the earth, when confronted
>with modern steamrollers.
Then just grow the fuck up and stand up for your beliefs and culture.
Again, we have the same argument here among ourselves. And, frankly
that's where we'll keep that debate.
>> >you churn out third-rate movies and embarrassing
>> >television shows that end up dominating foreign stations because, past
>their
>> >sell-by date, they're cheaper than home-brewed programs. your fast-food
>> >chains damage local cuisines and help export america's obesity.
>>
>> Then don't buy the shit. People buy this stuff because they like it,
>> it's fun, and tasty.
>
>i don't buy the shit. but you're right, it seduces people for exactly those
>reasons.
Yes it does. Welcome to the free marketplace of ideas. Bring your own
or rent one, you are welcome to borrow ours. Within our own country we
have entire populations who happily eschew modernism and modern
popular culture. Within a short drive of our major industrial centers
are people who choose to not own automobiles or use telephones or
indoor plumbing. That's the bottom line, choose how you would live.
>> >the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both
>in
>> >absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than
>anywhere
>> >else except china, iran and saudi arabia.
>>
>> What, now you're saying we don't have a lot of assholes here?
>
>i thought i said you did.
Well we're agreed. Quite a few assholes here. We like to lock them up
and execute the really nasty, aggressive ones.
>> >the rest of the world has some fair resentments about america. don't
>> >provide more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 is the way to guarantee
>> >future tragedies, not prevent them.
>>
>> We won't kill 'em all. Only their leaders. You know the corrupt and
>> brutal ones you were talking about earlier.
>
>don't forget the collateral damage.
There will be some. There always is. I sincerely believe that they
deliberate damage caused by the despots and the terrorists and death
cults they sponsor outweighs the inevitable misfortunes of war.
Ron
RonSonic
Hilarious.
Thanks,
Ron
RonSonic
<a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>read this. it's long but fascinating. british writer goes to egypt,
>lebanon and syria to find out what people there are saying.
I've read it. Let's start sifting the egregious bullshit from the
creative typing: No need to work the whole piece - it only takes a
forkfull to know that the plate is covered with shit.
>What do Muslims in the Middle East think about September 11 and the way the US and Britain have behaved since? GRAHAM TURNER of Britain's Sunday Telegraph spent three weeks in Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, talking to clerics, intellectuals and ordinary men and women. He met gentle, hospitable people — with a startling sense of grievance
Great, The bleedin' Telegraph. Only THE most anti-American paper
published in the English language. Hey thanks for the unbiased
insight.
>THE Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ahmad al-Tayyib, a splendid-looking character in a red and white turban, was pulling no punches. In his personal opinion, he thundered, what happened on September 11 in New York was being used by the Americans as a cover for their larger political aims in the Middle East.
"A splendid-looking character," wow I'm impressed. I'm sure that
stylish turban makes him smarter.
We have political aims in the Arab world - some related to 9/11 many
not.
> They had taken control of Afghanistan and were threatening to invade Iraq. Meanwhile, their ally Israel had succeeded in destroying a nation, or at least setting it back 50 years.
Interesting accusation, the Israelis setting the Palestinians back.
Did they set them back far enough - like before the 1948 Arab invasion
of Israel after which the Arab nations rounded up the Palestinian
refugees they created and herded them into camps?
> Had the charges against al-Qaeda, he wanted to know, been proved? So far, they were merely accusations. And even if Osama bin Laden and an Islamic group was responsible, that did not give the US Americans the right to attack a whole nation such as Afghanistan, or to target Islam as a religion that was in favour of terrorism.
Proved? Yes. As it is, Islam has not been targetted only the death
cult and if the Grand Mufti doesn't know the difference then he is a
part of the death cult, whether he admits it, or is even aware of it.
> “I remind you,” said the Grand Mufti, whose judgments on issues of Islamic law are respected throughout the Muslim world, “that, during the Crusades, Muslims were attacked by Christians who came from Europe. Seventy thousand were killed in one day. Yet no Muslim authority has ever written against Christianity. We have always made a distinction between the religion and those who sully its name.
The Crusades only reconquered lands that the Muslims had previously
invaded. No Crusader set foot on land that had not previously been in
Christian hands. It was entirely a defensive war incited by the
looting of Christianity's most holy sites.
> “In the case of September 11, you in the West did not make that distinction. That is proof that Western governments have used that event for political strategies that amount to little more than a modern version of colonialism.” President George W Bush’s threat to invade Iraq was merely the next stage in that strategy.
Fist an unsupported assertion "you... did not make that distinction."
Rapidly followed by "that is proof...." Damn, even the sloppiest
debater HERE can do better than this schmuck, and to think a creature
so incapable of logic is seen as an authority.
Obviously we have made a great many very fine distinctions, otherwise
the bloodbath would have looked like the recent violence in Inda.
Anyway, this article isn't news or even a well formulated opinion
piece. It is just the sort of noisey insulting screed we expect from
the Euro-left and have learned to ignore.
Ron
mark scialabba
Lumpy Rutherford <wos...@nordac.com> wrote in message
news:tXRg9.124726$2L.62...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> How many terrorists have you turned in, LV?
> What are you doing about getting ready for that big blast from all the
> terrorists that are out to get you?
> Do you have your property mined and booby trapped? Are you and your family
> residing in your fallout shelter? Everyone have gas masks and body armour?
> Did you bulletproof your windows in the house and autos? Got your Geiger
> counter fired up? I'm sure you've stockpiled a bunch of bullets. But what
if
> they come after you with tanks?
>
He probably actually did all that.
Lord Valve
RonSonic wrote:
Damn, Ron - shame on you. You mispelled "noisy."
Other than that - spot on. ;-)
Lord Valve
American
Lord Valve
Albert van Schroenen blubbered:
> as i said before, lord valve, you are a caricature of yourself.
Damn - I guess *he* told *me*. I'm utterly crushed.
Is it time to eat yet?
Lord Valve
(Reeling from the attack)
rave on!
news:WIcg9.645$Gc7...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> QUESTION AUTHORITY!
says who?
snip
r.s.
Albert van Schroenen
you.
tell me, lord valve, are you a very young man?
Lord Valve <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3D84B5AC...@ix.netcom.com...
Lord Valve
Albert van Schroenen <je...@phonyaddress.com> choked, coughed, and vomited
forth the following pilobolus, steaming upon the AGA carpet for all to see:
> comedy comes off better when the audience laughs with you rather than at
> you.
I know my audience, son. You ain't it. Laugh, don't laugh -
no skin off my ample American ass. You're on the sidelines
here. Nothing you or your third-world government can say
or do is going to have one iota of influence on the outcome
of this conflict. Someone suggested via e-mail that you're
posting from South Africa - another third-world shithole
with its hand out, looking for More Free Shit from America. Bah.
>
> tell me, lord valve, are you a very young man?
No, junior, I ain't. What's it to ya? You want to preach?
Fine - go right ahead. Keep tellin' the world what a piece
of shit America is. We'll still feed you. We always do.
We've got a soft spot for people who are so utterly fucking
stupid that they actually *kill* their own farmers because
they don't like white people. We draw the line when you
start killing *us*, though. Go ahead - gather up some
malcontents, whip up some anti-American frenzy in 'em,
and convince the poor dumb schmucks that they're gonna
get laid by 72 virgins right after they take out an American
skyscraper with a hijacked airliner. Don't be surprised when
your capital city turns into a puddle of radioactive glass, though.
It'll solve our problem, and it'll solve yours. After all - *dead*
anti-American assholes (of any ideology) don't need free food.
Have a nice life, kid. If you can.
Lord Valve
American
Albert van Schroenen
> Someone suggested via e-mail that you're
> posting from South Africa
how perceptive.
> - another third-world shithole
> with its hand out, looking for More Free Shit from America. Bah.
south africa is not in that position. some americans' knowledge of the
world is so sketchy that they find it hard to distinguish between venezuela
and kazakhstan, as you demonstrate below.
> > tell me, lord valve, are you a very young man?
> No, junior, I ain't. What's it to ya? You want to preach?
> Fine - go right ahead. Keep tellin' the world what a piece
> of shit America is. We'll still feed you. We always do.
> We've got a soft spot for people who are so utterly fucking
> stupid that they actually *kill* their own farmers because
> they don't like white people.
you're thinking of zimbabwe. news for you: it's another country.
> We draw the line when you
> start killing *us*, though. Go ahead - gather up some
> malcontents, whip up some anti-American frenzy in 'em,
> and convince the poor dumb schmucks that they're gonna
> get laid by 72 virgins right after they take out an American
> skyscraper with a hijacked airliner.
i suppose you think we're muslim, too.
> Don't be surprised when
> your capital city turns into a puddle of radioactive glass, though.
i'm sure your bravado is exceeded only by your personal courage.
i like you, lord valve. you're good value.
Albert van Schroenen
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:00:23 +0200, "Albert van Schroenen"
> <a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> >read this. it's long but fascinating. british writer goes to egypt,
> >lebanon and syria to find out what people there are saying.
>
> I've read it. Let's start sifting the egregious bullshit from the
> creative typing: No need to work the whole piece - it only takes a
> forkfull to know that the plate is covered with shit.
your analysis is compelling as far as it goes, except that you have
completely missed the point. the writer was not seeking to present tightly
reasoned arguments, and certainly makes few of his own. he was merely
recounting his experiences among the arabs and taking a snapshot of their
views. it may be puzzling to you that the arabs think the way they do, but
it is surely worth noting. refuting it point-by-point is an exercise in
futility.
JM
Lord Valve <LORD_...@prodigy.net> wrote
> posting from South Africa - another third-world shithole
> with its hand out, looking for More Free Shit from America. Bah.
Now hang about, shithead. I'm a South African too. I didn't want to get into
this unseemly squabble but I can't let that comment pass without saying that
1) it's incorrect and 2) it's the kind of arrogant, ignorant bullshit from
redneck arseholes like you that makes people think twice about your
otherwise great nation.
JM
--
Cape Town, South Africa
E.M.
JM schrieb:
> 2) it's the kind of arrogant, ignorant bullshit from
> redneck arseholes like you that makes people think twice about your
> otherwise great nation.
>
LV and MoRon think they are "the voice of america" (noticed how this idiots always talk in "we" as
if they talk for 270mio people?) - the only true thing that MoRon said was "in ten years the world
will improve": no Bush as president anymore
Lord Valve
bravely sallied forth thusly:
> Lord Valve <LORD_...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:yb4h9.103$Wo5...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> > Someone suggested via e-mail that you're
> > posting from South Africa
>
> how perceptive.
>
> > - another third-world shithole
> > with its hand out, looking for More Free Shit from America. Bah.
>
> south africa is not in that position.
Not this year, no. But you're in the process of beginning
to kill off your white farmers. You'll get there. You've
already arrived at Third World Shithole status. You've got
AIDS-infested maniacs raping 7 month-old babies because
their frigging witch-doctors told 'em that's the way to get
cured. You're staring a race war straight in the face, and
making believe it ain't gonna happen. You'll be hollering
for help from Uncle Sam soon enough.
> some americans' knowledge of the
> world is so sketchy that they find it hard to distinguish between venezuela
> and kazakhstan, as you demonstrate below.
I demonstrate *squat*, son. I don't give a rat's ass
where camelturdistan is, except as a set of targeting
coordinates in a cruise missile RAM. Those coordinates
are easily changed.
>
>
> > > tell me, lord valve, are you a very young man?
> > No, junior, I ain't. What's it to ya? You want to preach?
> > Fine - go right ahead. Keep tellin' the world what a piece
> > of shit America is. We'll still feed you. We always do.
> > We've got a soft spot for people who are so utterly fucking
> > stupid that they actually *kill* their own farmers because
> > they don't like white people.
>
> you're thinking of zimbabwe. news for you: it's another country.
News for you: I damn well know where what's left of Rhodesia
is, junior. The pogrom in Zimbabwe is causing famine in a
large part of Southern Africa. Think you're immune? Think
again.
>
>
> > We draw the line when you
> > start killing *us*, though. Go ahead - gather up some
> > malcontents, whip up some anti-American frenzy in 'em,
> > and convince the poor dumb schmucks that they're gonna
> > get laid by 72 virgins right after they take out an American
> > skyscraper with a hijacked airliner.
>
> i suppose you think we're muslim, too.
Hell, for all I care you can be High Episcopalians, Jews for Jesus,
Hare Krishna Airport Wankers, or Scientologists. My point is, if
you screw with Uncle Sam, expect to be in a world of shit. Your
gods ain't gonna help you - y'see, God fights on the side with
the best equipment and the most ammo. That's us. Choke on it.
>
>
> > Don't be surprised when
> > your capital city turns into a puddle of radioactive glass, though.
>
> i'm sure your bravado is exceeded only by your personal courage.
I ain't alone, sparky. There are at least 200 million more
who feel the same way I do, and despite the best efforts
of all the leftward-spinning propaganda engines the US
media exposes our populace to, our numbers are growing
all the time. I may be too old to fight, but I'll do what I can.
Right now, that's dissing anti-American schmucks on the
UseNet. Later - who knows.
> i like you, lord valve. you're good value.
Like I said before - what you like is of little concern.
You're sitting in the cheap seats, watching the show.
You'll stay there, too - at least, until you get hungry.
Then, you'll step right up with a mouth fulla Gimme
and a hand fulla Much Obliged. See if I'm lyin'.
Lord Valve
American
Lord Valve
JM wrote:
See my reply to your countryman, schmuck. It goes
double for you. BTW, you misspelled "asshole."
Lord Valve
Arsehole
RonSonic
Don't you just hate rhetorical questions.
Ron
Albert van Schroenen
> Not this year, no. But you're in the process of beginning
> to kill off your white farmers.
we are? did you read that in the klan newsletter?
> You'll get there. You've
> already arrived at Third World Shithole status. You've got
> AIDS-infested maniacs raping 7 month-old babies because
> their frigging witch-doctors told 'em that's the way to get
> cured.
a similar glance at headlines reveals that your streets are littered with
cannibals, paedophiles, assorted killers and crack whores.
as for the south african race war you hope for, there is little hate here
and fewer potential combatants. the army and police are racially
integrated, there is no insurgency or warlordism and the white right wing is
tiny and wasting away.
> I demonstrate *squat*, son. I don't give a rat's ass
> where camelturdistan is, except as a set of targeting
> coordinates in a cruise missile RAM.
the good citizens of camelturdistan see it that way too. which is why so
many of them would like to kill you.
> > you're thinking of zimbabwe. news for you: it's another country.
>
> News for you: I damn well know where what's left of Rhodesia
> is, junior. The pogrom in Zimbabwe is causing famine in a
> large part of Southern Africa. Think you're immune? Think
> again.
a note to readers: lord valve's nostalgia for rhodesia marks him as a
supporter of what were once africa's most enthusiastic white supremacists.
even south africa's apartheid government felt moved to pull the plug on
them.
most white rhodesians fled the country at independence in 1980. the few
whites who remained were overwhelmingly committed to making the new nation
work, so mugabe's dispossession of them is a criminal outrage worthy of no
liberal-minded sympathy. but that's another story.
> > i suppose you think we're muslim, too.
>
> Hell, for all I care you can be High Episcopalians, Jews for Jesus,
> Hare Krishna Airport Wankers, or Scientologists. My point is, if
> you screw with Uncle Sam, expect to be in a world of shit. Your
> gods ain't gonna help you - y'see, God fights on the side with
> the best equipment and the most ammo. That's us. Choke on it.
what makes you think south africa would screw with uncle sam? we need to
keep you sweet so you'll come here to gawk at our wildlife and we can titter
at your silly safari gear.
> I may be too old to fight, but I'll do what I can.
> Right now, that's dissing anti-American schmucks on the
> UseNet. Later - who knows.
i'm moved by your sense of duty.
> Like I said before - what you like is of little concern.
> You're sitting in the cheap seats, watching the show.
> You'll stay there, too - at least, until you get hungry.
> Then, you'll step right up with a mouth fulla Gimme
> and a hand fulla Much Obliged. See if I'm lyin'.
it's tough at the top, eh.
Junk451
>Great, The bleedin' Telegraph. Only THE most anti-American paper
>published in the English language. Hey thanks for the unbiased
>insight.
You haven't read the Daily Mirror recently have you?
RonSonic
<a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>RonSonic <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:5f49ouc4057jdl35l...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:00:23 +0200, "Albert van Schroenen"
>> <a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> >read this. it's long but fascinating. british writer goes to egypt,
>> >lebanon and syria to find out what people there are saying.
>>
>> I've read it. Let's start sifting the egregious bullshit from the
>> creative typing: No need to work the whole piece - it only takes a
>> forkfull to know that the plate is covered with shit.
>
>your analysis is compelling as far as it goes, except that you have
>completely missed the point. the writer was not seeking to present tightly
>reasoned arguments, and certainly makes few of his own. he was merely
>recounting his experiences among the arabs and taking a snapshot of their
>views. it may be puzzling to you that the arabs think the way they do, but
>it is surely worth noting. refuting it point-by-point is an exercise in
>futility.
Very true, which is why I only tapped a couple of the obvious howlers,
just for a look at where the thing was going.
Fact is, I've spent a lot more time in Egypt than the writer and am
pretty well aware of much of the popular opinion there. Am already
aware of just how staggeringly ignorant most people there of recent
events or geography or history for that matter. I'm not talking about
the differing opinions that are inevitable from so different a place,
but even the most basic knowledge is lacking.
As it is, I am not that worried about opinion on the street there. It
will change. Anytime you find people holding opinions with that much
internal conflict, you can count on them grabbing ahold of new opinion
when those are presented as verifiable certainties.
Ron
Haadi
"Albert van Schroenen" <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<3d84d...@news1.mweb.co.za>...
GeorgeCO
>> In other words kill the motherfuckers!
>
> oh, you guys.
>
> this hateful chest-beating is going out around the world. are you trying to
> recruit a few more terrorists to the anti-american cause, or what?
>
> virtually the whole world shares your pain about 9/11. even russia, china
> and most islamic countries did not object when you waded into afghanistan.
> it was a legitimate response, even if you did kill three times more
> civilians than died in the world trade center. and carpet the place with
> cluster bombs, which for years to come will maim civilians, often children,
> when they handle the 10% of bomblets that fail to explode.
>
> but iraq is not the same kettle of fish. many non-americans, including me,
> agree that saddam is a ruthless maniac with the potential to be very
> dangerous, and quite possibly he should be removed, but nobody says he had
> anything to do with 9/11.
>
> many people would argue that the proposed attack has little to do with 9/11
> and much to do with the u.s. arms and oil industries, not to mention dubya's
> political standing at home.
>
> saddam's fate ought to be a matter for the international community as
> embodied by the united nations.
>
> if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam a hero of the muslim
> world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to last the next forty years. the
> attack will be seen as typical arrogant u.s. bullying, bitterly resented in
> all the usual fanatical quarters. osama bin laden, if he's alive, must be
> rubbing his hands and hoping you will just do it. a reaction like this is
> probably exactly what he intended.
>
> it will only make things worse. already much of the world finds america
> distasteful.
>
> don't be so surprised.
>
> your government props up brutal and corrupt regimes wherever it suits your
> "national interest" - notably, in the present context, in the oil-rich arab
> world. your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
> such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
> countless victims of covert action.
>
> you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the earth
> while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.
>
> while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
> your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and premature
> death.
>
> while paying lip service to sovereignty, you threaten even your allies to
> coerce them into toeing your ludicrously counterproductive line on the war
> on drugs.
>
> your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
> and national self-esteem. you churn out third-rate movies and embarrassing
> television shows that end up dominating foreign stations because, past their
> sell-by date, they're cheaper than home-brewed programs. your fast-food
> chains damage local cuisines and help export america's obesity.
>
> you think guns are cool.
>
> the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both in
> absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than anywhere
> else except china, iran and saudi arabia.
>
> the rest of the world has some fair resentments about america. don't
> provide more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 is the way to guarantee
> future tragedies, not prevent them.
>
> so is the united states all bad? no! yours is a vast, heterogeneous
> country that produces many of the best people in every possible field. you
> make some great music and even a few great movies. you have an inspiring
> constitution and many progressive ideas. individually, many of you are
> wonderful people who do not conform to the ugly stereotypes.
>
> there is a lot to love about the u.s., and it would be good if,
> collectively, you could display more of that side of your country to the
> world. and perhaps elect the occasional non-gangster for president.
>
Oh, Albert, you have just cast so many pearls before so many swine that you
will need only read further to regret it. I wasn't going to take any part in
this ugly blind rage thread but at least I can commend you personally -- and
as much of an American as anyone else here -- for putting together the one
small posting in this newsgroup of the insane that must stand as the only
factually correct, well-reasoned posting that stands only on its own merits
despite the hail of blazing tirades it will inevitably provoke.
--GeorgeCO
Lord Valve
own house in by foolishly posting the following:
Lord Valve <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3D85033F...@ix.netcom.com...
>> Not this year, no. But you're in the process of beginning
>> to kill off your white farmers.
>we are? did you read that in the klan newsletter?
No. In fact, the article I read was by a South African
journalist named Adriana Stuijt. A Google search using
keywords "South Africa" AND farmers AND killed
returned 36,900 hits. Perhaps you've had your head
in the sand so long, your ass is full of lead. Here's a quote
and a URL. Plenty more where this one came from:
>This is especially true for farmers, against whom a campaign
>seems to have been launched since the end of apartheid in 1992
>that has already left 1,048 people dead (26 percent of whom are
>black farm workers and their families, and the rest are white
>commercial farmers and their family members) from more than
>5,500 well-armed military-style attacks by groups of young black
>males.
Taken from: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/4/27/170150.shtml
>> You'll get there. You've
>> already arrived at Third World Shithole status. You've got
>> AIDS-infested maniacs raping 7 month-old babies because
>> their frigging witch-doctors told 'em that's the way to get
>> cured.
>a similar glance at headlines reveals that your streets are littered with
>cannibals, paedophiles, assorted killers and crack whores.
My goodness...pot speaking to the kettle, eh? A Google
search using the keywords "South Africa" AND baby
AND rape pulled 96,400 hits. Hmmm...must be *something*
going on there you're not aware of. Managed news, perhaps?
No matter - here's one from (undoubtedly) your favorite, Pravda.
Looks like your homeboys are down to week-old infants now.
And small wonder, seeing as how nearly a quarter of your population
is infected with HIV. 27,000 cases of *CHILD* rape *reported*
(those emphasized words are important, since most cases
of rape in general and child rape in particular go UNreported in your
country) last year in your favorite third-world shithole, son. You're not
fooling anyone with your pious horse-shit.
>Another horrendous rape is reported in South Africa,
>this time of a baby girl just one week old. In this
>country, there is a widespread belief that AIDS will
>be warded off by having sexual relations with the
>youngest possible partner.
>
>The girl in question is in hospital, in a stable but
>critical situation, according to South African police
>sources. Witch doctors are blamed for spreading the
>notion that sexual relations with young partners
>will provide the perpetrator with a shield against AIDS.
Taken from: http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/07/31/33496.html
A Google search using the keywords "South Africa" AND HIV OR
AIDS pulled 501,000 hits. Damn, must be a popular sport in
your neck of the woods. Here's one:
>The costs to business, government and the economy
>would rise dramatically as deaths in SA from HIV/AIDS
>increased to more than 5-million in the year 2010, the
>Medical Research Council told Parliament's arts, culture,
>science and technology committee yesterday.
>
>The council reaffirmed its figures derived from projections
>from the Actuarial Society of SA that earlier this year put
>the society on a collision course with the health department.
>
>It predicted that while the new infections would begin to
>flatten and then decline, the cumulative number of deaths
>from HIV/AIDS would continue to rise reaching more than 5
>million in 2010.
Taken from:
http://www.businessday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1169419-6078-0,00.html
Of course, you will blame your rate of HIV/AIDS infection on
the United States, saying that our drug companies charge
too much for the medications necessary to treat it. The facts
that 1) the American pharmaceutical industry is not responsible
for the spread of this disease and 2) were it not for American
pharmaceutical companies, there wouldn't *be* any drugs
at *all* for treatment will, of course, be conveniently ignored.
Whatever happens, anywhere in the world, is Uncle Sam's
fault.
>as for the south african race war you hope for, there is little hate here
>and fewer potential combatants. the army and police are racially
>integrated, there is no insurgency or warlordism and the white right wing is
>tiny and wasting away.
ROFLMBFRWAO! How quickly you erect a straw man.
I don't "hope" for a race war, I'm merely forecasting
one. There's no "insurgency" or "warlordism," eh?
Tell me - you don't by any chance have a day job at the
Ministry of Information or somesuch, do you? Perhaps
you work for CNN or some other leftwing bullshit factory?
>> I demonstrate *squat*, son. I don't give a rat's ass
>> where camelturdistan is, except as a set of targeting
>> coordinates in a cruise missile RAM.
> the good citizens of camelturdistan see it that way too. which is why so
>many of them would like to kill you.
Ahhhh..."good citizens," eh? Yes, I suppose that all of the
19 hijackers who killed 3000+ Americans on 9/11 were
"good citizens." Watch as we make many of the rest of
them *dead* citizens.
>> > you're thinking of zimbabwe. news for you: it's another country.
>>
>> News for you: I damn well know where what's left of Rhodesia
>> is, junior. The pogrom in Zimbabwe is causing famine in a
>> large part of Southern Africa. Think you're immune? Think
>> again.
>a note to readers: lord valve's nostalgia for rhodesia marks him as a
>supporter of what were once africa's most enthusiastic white supremacists.
>even south africa's apartheid government felt moved to pull the plug on
>them.
A note to readers: Rip van Winkle (who has obviously
been asleep for the last 30 years) is erecting another
straw man. I have no "nostalgia" for Rhodesia. What I
*do* have is a wish to see Mugabe smoking a turd in
Hell. He KILLS HIS WHITE FARMERS, and then he
has the *nerve* to stick his filthy hand out for free food.
Unbelievable. I don't suppose you noticed (and I wouldn't
be at all surprised, since you don't seem to notice much
of what's going on in your own country, or refuse to, which
is worse) that the delegates to the hunger conference
so recently feted in your wonderful third-world shithole
managed to stuff themselves with steaks, lobsters,
champagne, caviar and the like whilst discussing ways
to feed their poor starving citizens. Ways which include,
of course, Free Shit From America as the major component...
Check it out:
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,718165,00.html
>most white rhodesians fled the country at independence
>in 1980.
Damn. I wonder why...
>the few whites who remained were overwhelmingly committed
>to making the new nation work,
Yes, and now they're getting killed for it. Do you
think they'll be a bit more cautious in the future?
A bit more heavily armed, perhaps? One may hope.
>so mugabe's dispossession of them is a criminal outrage
>worthy of no liberal-minded sympathy. but that's another
>story.
Another, no doubt, which you will gleefully ignore.
>> > i suppose you think we're muslim, too.
>>
>> Hell, for all I care you can be High Episcopalians, Jews for Jesus,
>> Hare Krishna Airport Wankers, or Scientologists. My point is, if
>> you screw with Uncle Sam, expect to be in a world of shit. Your
>> gods ain't gonna help you - y'see, God fights on the side with
>> the best equipment and the most ammo. That's us. Choke on it.
>what makes you think south africa would screw with
>uncle sam?
What makes you think I was speaking about South Africa
in particular? On the world scene, you're just a leftover.
Puff up if you feel the need, and believe it's all about
you.
>we need to keep you sweet so you'll come here to gawk
>at our wildlife and we can titter at your silly safari gear.
I don't think you'll have much of a tourism industry once
people figure out that you are twenty or thirty times as
likely to be raped (REGARDLESS of your sex!) in South Africa
as in Los Angeles. You can keep your third-world shithole,
junior. We don't want any of it.
>> I may be too old to fight, but I'll do what I can.
>> Right now, that's dissing anti-American schmucks on the
>> UseNet. Later - who knows.
>i'm moved by your sense of duty.
My heart pumps crunchy peanut butter at the very thought
of your concern.
>> Like I said before - what you like is of little concern.
>> You're sitting in the cheap seats, watching the show.
>> You'll stay there, too - at least, until you get hungry.
>> Then, you'll step right up with a mouth fulla Gimme
>> and a hand fulla Much Obliged. See if I'm lyin'.
>>it's tough at the top, eh.
Damnsure *you* won't be finding out any time soon.
Lord Valve
Arrogant Rightwing Yank Bastard
Albert van Schroenen
> >> Not this year, no. But you're in the process of beginning
> >> to kill off your white farmers.
>
> >we are? did you read that in the klan newsletter?
>
> No. In fact, the article I read was by a South African
> journalist named Adriana Stuijt.
who is wrongly described in the piece as a "noted south african journalist".
try a google search for "Adriana Stuijt" and see what disreputable places
she publishes. if she isn't already writing for the klan, she's missing out
on a market.
> A Google search using
> keywords "South Africa" AND farmers AND killed
> returned 36,900 hits. Perhaps you've had your head
> in the sand so long, your ass is full of lead. Here's a quote
> and a URL. Plenty more where this one came from:
>
> >This is especially true for farmers, against whom a campaign
> >seems to have been launched since the end of apartheid in 1992
> >that has already left 1,048 people dead (26 percent of whom are
> >black farm workers and their families, and the rest are white
> >commercial farmers and their family members) from more than
> >5,500 well-armed military-style attacks by groups of young black
> >males.
>
> Taken from:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/4/27/170150.shtml
your choice of citation source is revealing. check out the rest of that
site. i love the faux liberalism of the concern for the 26% of the dead who
are "black farm workers and their families". if a racist campaign
specifically against white farmers exists, why is fully a quarter of the
death toll black?
yes, south africa has a crime problem. yes, farmers are victims. they live
on isolated homesteads in islands of relative wealth and are easy targets.
this does not excuse murder but it should be noted that farmers are
sometimes the least reformed of the old-style racists and treat their
workers like dogs. if some of the attacks smack of revenge killing, that is
not surprising.
the peak of concern about farm murders was about four years ago, cf
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/03/26/intl/intl.5.html
senior white police officials, all of whom date back to the previous regime
and are by no means bleeding-heart liberals, say they find no evidence of a
politically motivated campaign against farmers. and have a look at what
farmers' own representatives say about the killings:
http://www.africaonline.com/site/Articles/1,3,45526.jsp
Land ownership disputes and robbery were major reasons for farm attacks and
killings in the Eastern Cape, the provincial agricultural union said
yesterday.
EAST LONDON: Union chairperson G Breetzke told delegates at the three-day
seminar organised by the provincial standing committee on safety and
security that these killings were not aimed at white farmers only, but the
whole farming community.
> >a similar glance at headlines reveals that your streets are littered with
> >cannibals, paedophiles, assorted killers and crack whores.
>
> My goodness...pot speaking to the kettle, eh?
quite so.
> A Google
> search using the keywords "South Africa" AND baby
> AND rape pulled 96,400 hits. Hmmm...must be *something*
> going on there you're not aware of. Managed news, perhaps?
i am fully aware of two massively publicised cases of baby rape. but yes,
we have a pretty fucked-up society. the difference from you is that we know
that, and we don't seek to defend the indefensible.
> No matter - here's one from (undoubtedly) your favorite, Pravda.
> Looks like your homeboys are down to week-old infants now.
> And small wonder, seeing as how nearly a quarter of your population
> is infected with HIV. 27,000 cases of *CHILD* rape *reported*
> (those emphasized words are important, since most cases
> of rape in general and child rape in particular go UNreported in your
> country)
and in yours.
> >Witch doctors are blamed for spreading the
> >notion that sexual relations with young partners
> >will provide the perpetrator with a shield against AIDS.
>
> Taken from: http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/07/31/33496.html
such a myth exists. it is doubtful whether it is widespread. but it has
the power to seize the media's imagination and be parroted ad nauseam.
> A Google search using the keywords "South Africa" AND HIV OR
> AIDS pulled 501,000 hits. Damn, must be a popular sport in
> your neck of the woods. Here's one:
> >It predicted that while the new infections would begin to
> >flatten and then decline, the cumulative number of deaths
> >from HIV/AIDS would continue to rise reaching more than 5
> >million in 2010.
oh look, it's the kettle letting off steam again.
"....the U.S. still has the highest rates of STDs in the industrialized
world with rates that are 50-100 times higher than other industrialized
nations."
http://www.thebody.com/cdc/stdprev.html
> Of course, you will blame your rate of HIV/AIDS infection on
> the United States, saying that our drug companies charge
> too much for the medications necessary to treat it. The facts
> that 1) the American pharmaceutical industry is not responsible
> for the spread of this disease and 2) were it not for American
> pharmaceutical companies, there wouldn't *be* any drugs
> at *all* for treatment will, of course, be conveniently ignored.
> Whatever happens, anywhere in the world, is Uncle Sam's
> fault.
you misunderstand aids if you think that current medications are able to
reduce any country's _rate_ of hiv infection.
> >as for the south african race war you hope for, there is little hate here
> >and fewer potential combatants. the army and police are racially
> >integrated, there is no insurgency or warlordism and the white right wing
is
> >tiny and wasting away.
>
> ROFLMBFRWAO! How quickly you erect a straw man.
> I don't "hope" for a race war, I'm merely forecasting
> one. There's no "insurgency" or "warlordism," eh?
no. there used to be, but that was ten years ago.
> Tell me - you don't by any chance have a day job at the
> Ministry of Information or somesuch, do you? Perhaps
> you work for CNN or some other leftwing bullshit factory?
cnn, leftwing? what an extraordinary thing to say. actually, south africa
doesn't have a ministry of information. many of its daily newspapers are
owned by a foreigner, the irishman tony o'reilly. many others remain in the
hands of the afrikaner elite. there is no censorship, nor is there a media
consensus on the nature of reality such as you have in the united states.
> >> I demonstrate *squat*, son. I don't give a rat's ass
> >> where camelturdistan is, except as a set of targeting
> >> coordinates in a cruise missile RAM.
>
> > the good citizens of camelturdistan see it that way too. which is why so
> >many of them would like to kill you.
>
> Ahhhh..."good citizens," eh? Yes, I suppose that all of the
> 19 hijackers who killed 3000+ Americans on 9/11 were
> "good citizens." Watch as we make many of the rest of
> them *dead* citizens.
what desperate bluster.
> A note to readers: Rip van Winkle (who has obviously
> been asleep for the last 30 years) is erecting another
> straw man. I have no "nostalgia" for Rhodesia. What I
> *do* have is a wish to see Mugabe smoking a turd in
> Hell. He KILLS HIS WHITE FARMERS, and then he
> has the *nerve* to stick his filthy hand out for free food.
> Unbelievable.
i couldn't agree with you more. hey, this is a historic moment.
> I don't suppose you noticed (and I wouldn't
> be at all surprised, since you don't seem to notice much
> of what's going on in your own country, or refuse to, which
> is worse) that the delegates to the hunger conference
> so recently feted in your wonderful third-world shithole
hunger conference? it was nothing of the sort. it was an environment
conference, the world summit on sustainable development, the sequel to rio.
and your president demonstrated his contempt by failing to pitch up, despite
the allure of caviar, and opposing every proposal through his discomfited
proxy. even europe was outraged by it.
> managed to stuff themselves with steaks, lobsters,
> champagne, caviar and the like whilst discussing ways
> to feed their poor starving citizens. Ways which include,
> of course, Free Shit From America as the major component...
>
> Check it out:
> http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,718165,00.html
it may escape you that in many ways south africa is a microcosm of the
entire world. the inequalities that you deride when they lie cheek-by-jowl
in soweto and johannesburg are no different from the inequalities between
north and south, first world and third. such inequalities, in fact, are the
fundamental engines of terrorism. but you have your head in the sand.
> >most white rhodesians fled the country at independence
> >in 1980.
>
> Damn. I wonder why...
same reason argentina has an expatriate german population.
Albert van Schroenen
> Looks like your homeboys are down to week-old infants now.
> And small wonder, seeing as how nearly a quarter of your population
> is infected with HIV.
you don't have much of a head for statistics. the quarter to which you
refer is the rate of hiv infection as sampled at state antenatal clinics.
the overall infection rate for the general population is about 10% and the
curve is levelling off.
however, that is a domestic tragedy. we were discussing u.s. foreign
policy, as i recall.
Frank_N_Furter
misspelled arse hole.
an ass is a donkey, as far as the world not including the US is concerned...
i hate the way america has mangled the english language...
Frank
from australia (very non-3rd world)
"Lord Valve" <detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3D8503C8...@ix.netcom.com...
Albert van Schroenen
GeorgeCO <ge...@rcn.com> wrote in message news:B9AAD6F9.EFF%ge...@rcn.com...
> Oh, Albert, you have just cast so many pearls before so many swine that
you
> will need only read further to regret it. I wasn't going to take any part
in
> this ugly blind rage thread but at least I can commend you personally --
and
> as much of an American as anyone else here -- for putting together the one
> small posting in this newsgroup of the insane that must stand as the only
> factually correct, well-reasoned posting that stands only on its own
merits
> despite the hail of blazing tirades it will inevitably provoke.
thank you, george. most of the rest of us, in the bystander countries, are
not anti-american - we're just deeply worried that america, in its grief and
rage, is losing its head in a way that could do great harm to the world.
i'm heartened to read your reply, and those of several other americans here.
they prove what i said originally - that america is a vast, heterogeneous
country that produces some of the world's best people.
TD Madden
whew......thanks, I needed that!
TD Madden
What is UP with that ARSE?...and HANG ABOUT? Do you even KNOW what
REDNECK *really* means?
TD Madden
Except that it remains only his opinion, and thus no better than anyone
else's.
noc10
There it is, the heart of your outlook, they deserve it!
After all, they have "relative wealth"!
Lord Valve
TD Madden wrote:
> GeorgeCO wrote:
>
> > Oh, Albert, you have just cast so many pearls before so many swine that you
> >will need only read further to regret it. I wasn't going to take any part in
> >this ugly blind rage thread but at least I can commend you personally -- and
> >as much of an American as anyone else here -- for putting together the one
> >small posting in this newsgroup of the insane that must stand as the only
> >factually correct, well-reasoned posting that stands only on its own merits
> >despite the hail of blazing tirades it will inevitably provoke.
> >
> > --GeorgeCO
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Except that it remains only his opinion, and thus no better than anyone
> else's.
Personally, I think it should be set to music. You don't see a lot
of good love-songs these days...
Lord Valve
ROFLMBFRWAO
Damn - I hope that CO after his name doesn't mean
Colorado. ;-)
noc10
> > search using the keywords "South Africa" AND baby
> > AND rape pulled 96,400 hits. Hmmm...must be
*something*
> > going on there you're not aware of. Managed news,
perhaps?
>
> i am fully aware of two massively publicised cases of
baby rape. but yes,
> we have a pretty fucked-up society. the difference from
you is that we know
> that, and we don't seek to defend the indefensible.
No sir, the difference is that we're not on the internet
telling YOU how
to run YOUR country. Perhaps you should remove the log from
your
own eye before trying to remove the mote from your
neighbor's.
(To paraphrase on old book of wisdom)
(snip)
It's agood thing that all those STD "rampant" in the US CAN
be cured eh?
What the heck is your point anyway?
(snip)
> > Tell me - you don't by any chance have a day job at the
> > Ministry of Information or somesuch, do you? Perhaps
> > you work for CNN or some other leftwing bullshit
factory?
>
> cnn, leftwing? what an extraordinary thing to say.
actually, south africa
> doesn't have a ministry of information. many of its
daily newspapers are
> owned by a foreigner, the irishman tony o'reilly. many
others remain in the
> hands of the afrikaner elite. there is no censorship,
nor is there a media
> consensus on the nature of reality such as you have in
the united states.
You really know so little about the US that one must ask.
What the fuck is your problem? You don't have a clue, it's
obvious.
What do you feel has entitled you to act the expert on the
US?
You by your admission, get your info from CNN, so now, just
because
you hear CNN's take, you believe that it is a US "media
concensus".
Albert, you may mean well, but you don't have a clue.
(snip)
> > A note to readers: Rip van Winkle (who has obviously
> > been asleep for the last 30 years) is erecting another
> > straw man. I have no "nostalgia" for Rhodesia. What I
> > *do* have is a wish to see Mugabe smoking a turd in
> > Hell. He KILLS HIS WHITE FARMERS, and then he
> > has the *nerve* to stick his filthy hand out for free
food.
> > Unbelievable.
>
> i couldn't agree with you more. hey, this is a historic
moment.
Not really, even the most leftoids feel that they must
PUBLICLY
condemn Mugave
(excepting the City Council of The People's
Republic of New York, who feel it appropriate to visit
Mugabe
for the purpose of learning his methods)
>
> > I don't suppose you noticed (and I wouldn't
> > be at all surprised, since you don't seem to notice
much
> > of what's going on in your own country, or refuse to,
which
> > is worse) that the delegates to the hunger conference
> > so recently feted in your wonderful third-world
shithole
>
> hunger conference? it was nothing of the sort. it was
an environment
> conference, the world summit on sustainable development,
the sequel to rio.
> and your president demonstrated his contempt by failing
to pitch up, despite
> the allure of caviar, and opposing every proposal through
his discomfited
> proxy. even europe was outraged by it.
I've read the RIO conferences, and they are a vast series
of proposals
as to how best redistribute the US's wealth. Damn right
Bush is against
it. thankfully we have a President who is doing the job
that he was elected to do.
Namely, looking out for the US.
As for Euro-Socialist anger? Add 2 US dollars to that and
you might be able
to buy a cup of Starbucks.
noc10
Which is "domestic policy" for us. Butt out.
>
>
>
noc10
"Adam Cook" <ajcook@NYETSPAM!!satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0GSg9.456342$q53.15...@twister.austin.rr.com...> news:3d83e...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> >
> > Elvis Paisley <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote:
>
> > the same sort of thing happened a few years ago in
britain, ostensibly in
> > response to the comically mild threat posed by rave
parties and new-age
> > travellers. the new law, the criminal justice act of
1994, did away with
> > the right to remain silent and imposed restrictions on
protests, among
> other
> > things. but it appears your patriot act is considerably
more repressive.
> >
> > it appears to be the direction the western democracies
are going.
>
> I myself am not worried about the so-called "Patriot
Act". I think slippery
> slope arguments are overblown. But I read an article the
other day that
> made a depressing and interesting point. Over the course
of modern
> history(tha BC-AD crossover point), slightly less than 5%
of the worlds
> governments have been voluntary, meaning created by the
people and run by
> the people through elected representatives. And to get
to that 5% number,
> you had to count Tudor England, which would hardly be
considered a democracy
> by todays standards. It'd be nice to think that freedom
and representative
> government represent man's natural state, but history
says totalinarianism
> is what we usually have.
>
> - Adam
Aye! And unless care is taken, the dictators and the
violent WILL beat
up the nice guys. Defending against the despots DOES make
the "nice guys"
a little less nice, but not so nearly as bad as the
alternative.
(I also don't care for the Patriot act, particularly it's
lack of a sunset clause.)
CompUser
"Albert van Schroenen" wrote ...
>
> are "black farm workers and their families". if a racist campaign
> specifically against white farmers exists, why is fully a quarter of the
> death toll black?
Probably because they were working for the white farmers, when
the farm was attacked. Next!
> yes, south africa has a crime problem. yes, farmers are victims. they
live
> on isolated homesteads in islands of relative wealth and are easy targets.
Good. You've admitted your country has problems.
You take care of your country's problems, we'll take care of ours.
Steve
CompUser
"Frank_N_Furter" wrote ...
> no issue here re: the deabte itself, but i'm affraid, it's you who has
> misspelled arse hole.
>
> an ass is a donkey, as far as the world not including the US is
concerned...
> i hate the way america has mangled the english language...
>
> Frank
> from australia (very non-3rd world)
Hey, we do our best ;-)
How's that go...US and Australia, two countries
separated by a common language?
Steve
Frank_N_Furter
Frank
"CompUser" <steve762u...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1rxh9.9627$rJ3.8...@kent.svc.tds.net...
GeorgeCO
>
> "Albert van Schroenen" <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:3d83e...@news1.mweb.co.za...
>>
>> Elvis Paisley <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote:
>
>> the same sort of thing happened a few years ago in britain, ostensibly in
>> response to the comically mild threat posed by rave parties and new-age
>> travellers. the new law, the criminal justice act of 1994, did away with
>> the right to remain silent and imposed restrictions on protests, among
> other
>> things. but it appears your patriot act is considerably more repressive.
>>
>> it appears to be the direction the western democracies are going.
>
> I myself am not worried about the so-called "Patriot Act". I think slippery
> slope arguments are overblown. But I read an article the other day that
> made a depressing and interesting point. Over the course of modern
> history(tha BC-AD crossover point), slightly less than 5% of the worlds
> governments have been voluntary, meaning created by the people and run by
> the people through elected representatives. And to get to that 5% number,
> you had to count Tudor England, which would hardly be considered a democracy
> by todays standards. It'd be nice to think that freedom and representative
> government represent man's natural state, but history says totalinarianism
> is what we usually have.
>
> - Adam
>
>
This is nothing of any shock to me and shouldn't be the least bit shocking
to anyone with even a modest "sense of history" - and in no way am I an
historian, nor need anyone else be to understand it. If your knowledge of
history is very general, as is mine, it should never strike you as bizarre
that less that "5%" of the time at any given point in history has the
prevailing governing body been even halfway "popular" among those that it
governs. Totalitarian oligarchies are the rule and far from the exception in
organized civil structures -- "popular" regimes are the passing oases in the
large desert of slave-driving totalitarian states that constitute and will
always constitute the largest part of human organization.
What is now happening in the Western nations is a turn back toward the
historic norm after a brief span of time in which the largest number of the
populace has enjoyed another oasis of unusually large comfort with their
governing bodies. This invariably passes all too quickly back to the
historic norm.
18th Century British philosopher and statesman Edmund Burke said, "It is the
eternal good fortune of the ignorant that they shall always be ruled by the
wise."
Well, he could well-afford to say that, himself.
But Burke was wrong and had it all backward. Accurately put, it should have
been stated, "It is the eternal misfortune of the ignorant and believing
that they shall always be ruled by the deceptive and ruthless."
--GeorgeCO
GeorgeCO
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 04:58:34 +0200, "Albert van Schroenen"
> <a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> RonSonic <rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:h8q7ou0v51fe5imfb...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:37:17 +0200, "Albert van Schroenen"
>>> <a...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I took out the trash yesterday. It had nothing to do with 9/11 either.
>>> Saddam should go. Whether 9/11 happened or not, Saddam should go.
>>
>> then why is bush citing 9/11 as the reason to take out the trash?
>
> I read his speech to the UN, he cited UN resolutions as the reason to
> take out the trash. There is no doubt that 9/11 has increased the
> sense of urgency and has inspired a long hard look at the arrangement
> of powers within the Arab world.
Well, it wasn't "by accident" that it was coming right up on the "9/11
anniversary".
>>> Which has passed a number of mandates and binding resolutions - the
>>> correct reading of which is Saddam should go.
>>
>> apparently there are differing interpretations, but that's not the point.
>> the point is that you can't defeat terrorism like this. attacking saddam at
>> this historical juncture, when the israel-palestine debacle has already
>> quickened the blood, will only inflame the islamic world, which has
>> adequately demonstrated that, sufficiently roused, it has no shortage of
>> young men willing to kill themselves to kill you.
>
> Saddam is sponsoring conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. He
> is paying money for Israeli blood. Removing him will promote peace.
> Those confused young men are not the problem, only the raw material
> weaponized and used by thugs like Saddam. With those gone, the kids
> can get jobs, date, find a life.
Topple Saddam? Even Prez. George Bush the Elder knew or was smart enough to
understand it when told that taking out Saddam for a "more *popular* Iraqi
leader" would have to mean a Shiite fundamentalist, ą la "Ayatollah Ruholla
Khomeini"!
>> in the end, you can either:
>>
>> - make peace with islam and its radicals. their grievances are not crazy,
>> even if their methods are. don't assume out of hand that it can't be done;
>
> I say we take out the crazies and have a long and happy life with the
> rest.
What do they look like?
>> or
>>
>> - spend the next generation waging a low-intensity war against guerrillas
>> and terrorists harboured by a sympathetic population of more than 1 billion
>> people. that will be fun.
>
> No. The other alternative is high-intensity conflict with the
> leadership and political structures that promote conflict. Followed by
> a highly beneficial and largely peaceable relationship with the rest.
>
>>>> if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam a hero of the muslim
>>>> world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to last the next forty years.
>>>
>>> Only until he loses. Again.
>>
>> you delude yourself if you imagine that terrorism can be defeated by
>> military means. even the nazis couldn't snuff out the resistance in france
>> or yugoslavia. you're going to go one better than the nazis?
>
> Our entire national history is better than the damn Nazis. There is
> absolutely no similarity between our objectives and theirs. They
> fought to impose their tyranny, we fight to oppose tyranny. I'd
> consider that a significant moral difference, even if you are blind to
> such things. It is an immense practical difference - we aren't out to
> "snuff resistance."
So, "It can't happen here"? Germans and other Europeans were left dizzied
and speechless as to how such a civilized, educated nation such as the
German Republic which had been home to so many of the world's greatest minds
could ever have been the breeding ground to such unthinkable human behavior.
>>> And right now the most brutal and corrupt regime is Saddam's. Until
>>> late last year it was the Taliban. Figure in about a year whatever
>>> tyrant then finds himself running the most corrupt and brutal regime
>>> should be looking over his shoulder.
>>
>> saddam's was also the most brutal and corrupt regime back in the 1980s, when
>> the u.s. was arming him against iran. do you really think the u.s. is going
>> to risk its oil by unseating the unpopular despots who rule much of the arab
>> world and underlie the bin laden phenomenon?
>
> No, in the 80's Iran was leading the way in pioneering Islamofascist
> tyranny - Saddam was just another tin pot dictator whom it was
> believed would remain pragmatic and subject to the usual Clausewitzian
> persuasions. He seems instead to have gone off toward grandiose
> delusion and megalomania.
And you find this to be so peculiar? Whose munitions factories did such
enormous business with pre-WWII Japan? What American hero was more of an
admirer of Hitler's Third Reich than Henry Ford?
>>>> your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
>>>> such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
>>>> countless victims of covert action.
>>>
>>> "Inconvenient" is that a new euphemism for criminal. We don't like
>>> those types, we're happy to take them out.
>>
>> they were criminal all along. what changed was the american cost/benefit
>> analysis.
>
> Oh dear. Do you mean that an actual nation has actually based its
> foreign policy on practical concerns for its own welfare. I am
> shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
Fine in the short-term usually means a true disaster in the long-term when
"certain things just change".
>>>> you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the
>> earth
>>>> while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.
>>>
>>> We didn't backtrack, we don't want anything to do with it. While it
>>> was being discussed we politely stayed at the table until we saw which
>>> way it was going and then excused ourselves.
>>
>> not everybody saw it that way. but even if you're right, so what?
>
> So nothing. Kyoto was a schoolyard gang-up on US industry and we won't
> play along.
We couldn't have just "looked good" by being a signatory who later broke
its agreement we had to answer to US industry first and foremost because
we'd have been held accountable if we'd signed onto the Kyoto agreements.
>>>> while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
>>>> your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and
>> premature
>>>> death.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, didn't notice that we were the only country capable of
>>> buying imports. Talk to your maximum leader at the EU.
>>
>> the e.u. is just as culpable. that doesn't excuse the u.s. double-standard.
>
> No, it is just what nations do. Act in what they perceive to be their
> best interests. There is a lot of internal debate here on the subject
> and tariffs and trade issues are a routine issue in our politics.
>
>>>> your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
>>>> and national self-esteem.
>>>
>>> Hey, if you've got a cultural tradition that can be undone by a mouse
>>> and Beavis and Butthead reruns you weren't bolted together real tight
>>> in the first place.
>>
>> parts of humanity are fragile, just like parts of the earth, when confronted
>> with modern steamrollers.
>
> Then just grow the fuck up and stand up for your beliefs and culture.
> Again, we have the same argument here among ourselves. And, frankly
> that's where we'll keep that debate.
Well, now it's just "Mickey Mouse vs. Venerable Traditions"? Maybe Mickey's
"more fun" than boring old people and praying?
What a laughable "culture-clash"!
>>>> you churn out third-rate movies and embarrassing
>>>> television shows that end up dominating foreign stations because, past
>> their
>>>> sell-by date, they're cheaper than home-brewed programs. your fast-food
>>>> chains damage local cuisines and help export america's obesity.
>>>
>>> Then don't buy the shit. People buy this stuff because they like it,
>>> it's fun, and tasty.
>>
>> i don't buy the shit. but you're right, it seduces people for exactly those
>> reasons.
>
> Yes it does. Welcome to the free marketplace of ideas. Bring your own
> or rent one, you are welcome to borrow ours. Within our own country we
> have entire populations who happily eschew modernism and modern
> popular culture. Within a short drive of our major industrial centers
> are people who choose to not own automobiles or use telephones or
> indoor plumbing. That's the bottom line, choose how you would live.
I never realized we had that diversity of "choice"! Away from the major
industrial centers entire populations don't have much choice in what they
can't afford to get but don't "avoid" all these things. "Choose how you
live"? Well, if you've got the money you can have it anywhere for a price!
Now is that a short drive from Boston, New York, Los Angeles and San
Francisco or a short drive from Tallahassee, Florida, Phoenix, Arizona and
Helena, Montana? The "choice" does change dramatically!
And a "free marketplace"? A strange contradiction in terms! Ideas have to
have a going rate too. Somebody has to make the books, the education and the
media "worthwhile" or it just dries up -- like "education".
Anyway, who ever made even the smallest unit of monetary exchange "exporting
starvation"? Sure, you can get a good bit for a Big Mac and some Pepsi but
who ever made a cent on an empty plate?
>>>> the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both
>> in
>>>> absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than
>> anywhere
>>>> else except china, iran and saudi arabia.
>>>
>>> What, now you're saying we don't have a lot of assholes here?
>>
>> i thought i said you did.
>
> Well we're agreed. Quite a few assholes here. We like to lock them up
> and execute the really nasty, aggressive ones.
So *that's* what they mean, at least in part, when they say, "Family
Values"! (I must've slept through that one when it was given a definition.)
>>>> the rest of the world has some fair resentments about america. don't
>>>> provide more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 is the way to guarantee
>>>> future tragedies, not prevent them.
>>>
>>> We won't kill 'em all. Only their leaders. You know the corrupt and
>>> brutal ones you were talking about earlier.
>>
>> don't forget the collateral damage.
>
> There will be some. There always is. I sincerely believe that they
> deliberate damage caused by the despots and the terrorists and death
> cults they sponsor outweighs the inevitable misfortunes of war.
>
> Ron
So, how does "terrorism" compare to "guerilla warfare"? Is it really the
same thing just a whole lot bigger and over a lot more land?
And do we count or weigh the bodies in the "inevitable misfortunes of war"?
Shall we check the bodies for loose currency?
Yes, it's very depressing going "back to the future", isn't it? Way beyond
words.
GeorgeCO
GeorgeCO
> Albert van Schroenen marshalled his Army of One and
> bravely sallied forth thusly:
>
>> Lord Valve <LORD_...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>> news:yb4h9.103$Wo5...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
>>> posting from South Africa
>>
>>
>>> - another third-world shithole
>>> with its hand out, looking for More Free Shit from America. Bah.
>>
>
> already arrived at Third World Shithole status. You've got
> AIDS-infested maniacs raping 7 month-old babies because
> their frigging witch-doctors told 'em that's the way to get
> making believe it ain't gonna happen. You'll be hollering
> for help from Uncle Sam soon enough.
>
And all this time I suffered under the misconception that it was "Jews who
steal Christian babies for consumption during their sacrificial holiday
feasts!" But that's been the universal Conventional Wisdom in Eastern
Europe, hasn't it? I never knew about all those witch-doctors prescribing
mass baby-consumption as an anti-AIDS therapy! Pheeww! All these horrible
people eating all those infants -- everywhere you go! Well, maybe I'll have
to admit, finally, that there really has been more than a little something
to this "Jew-Nigger Worldwide Conspiracy" after all! Oh, Jayzuz!
>
>> some americans' knowledge of the
>> world is so sketchy that they find it hard to distinguish between venezuela
>> and kazakhstan, as you demonstrate below.
>
> where camelturdistan is, except as a set of targeting
> are easily changed.
>
>>
>>>> tell me, lord valve, are you a very young man?
>>> No, junior, I ain't. What's it to ya? You want to preach?
>>> Fine - go right ahead. Keep tellin' the world what a piece
>>> of shit America is. We'll still feed you. We always do.
>>> We've got a soft spot for people who are so utterly fucking
>>> stupid that they actually *kill* their own farmers because
>>> they don't like white people.
>>
>
> News for you: I damn well know where what's left of Rhodesia
> is, junior. The pogrom in Zimbabwe is causing famine in a
> large part of Southern Africa. Think you're immune? Think
> again.
>
>>
>>> start killing *us*, though. Go ahead - gather up some
>>> malcontents, whip up some anti-American frenzy in 'em,
>>> and convince the poor dumb schmucks that they're gonna
>>> get laid by 72 virgins right after they take out an American
>>> skyscraper with a hijacked airliner.
>>
>
> Hell, for all I care you can be High Episcopalians, Jews for Jesus,
> Hare Krishna Airport Wankers, or Scientologists. My point is, if
> you screw with Uncle Sam, expect to be in a world of shit. Your
> gods ain't gonna help you - y'see, God fights on the side with
> the best equipment and the most ammo. That's us. Choke on it.
>
>>> your capital city turns into a puddle of radioactive glass, though.
>>
>
> who feel the same way I do, and despite the best efforts
> of all the leftward-spinning propaganda engines the US
> media exposes our populace to, our numbers are growing
> all the time. I may be too old to fight, but I'll do what I can.
> Right now, that's dissing anti-American schmucks on the
> UseNet. Later - who knows.
>
>
> You're sitting in the cheap seats, watching the show.
> You'll stay there, too - at least, until you get hungry.
> Then, you'll step right up with a mouth fulla Gimme
> and a hand fulla Much Obliged. See if I'm lyin'.
>
> American
Does anybody know about a possible release-date for a DVD version of those
John Wayne-Green Beret promo films the Pentagon did back in the 1960s? I
still want some real facts here!
--GeorgeCO
GeorgeCO
Interruption of mush!
Well, as a wholly unbidden interjection for an other reference to a URL --
of which there are so many -- I bring you one more to become *seriously*
upset about:
It is incendiary in anyone's direction and contains a large section devoted
to President Thabo Mbeki and some of his most vehemently-objected-to
activities. As rare as snowballs in Equador, a leader with a brain who
actually CARES!
--GeorgeCO
...and the mush continues:
Lord Valve
long enough post the following retarded drivel:
> detr...@ix.netcom.com3D85033F.A83BCECA@ix.netcom.com
> > Albert van Schroenen marshalled his Army of One and
> > bravely sallied forth thusly:
> >
> >> Lord Valve <LORD_...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >> news:yb4h9.103$Wo5...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> >>> Someone suggested via e-mail that you're
> >>> posting from South Africa
> >>
> >> how perceptive.
> >>
> >>> - another third-world shithole
> >>> with its hand out, looking for More Free Shit from America. Bah.
> >>
> >> south africa is not in that position.
> >
> > Not this year, no. But you're in the process of beginning
> > to kill off your white farmers. You'll get there. You've
> > already arrived at Third World Shithole status. You've got
> > AIDS-infested maniacs raping 7 month-old babies because
> > their frigging witch-doctors told 'em that's the way to get
> > cured. You're staring a race war straight in the face, and
> > making believe it ain't gonna happen. You'll be hollering
> > for help from Uncle Sam soon enough.
> >
> And all this time I suffered under the misconception that it was "Jews who
> steal Christian babies for consumption during their sacrificial holiday
> feasts!" But that's been the universal Conventional Wisdom in Eastern
> Europe, hasn't it? I never knew about all those witch-doctors prescribing
> mass baby-consumption as an anti-AIDS therapy!
No baby eating, son. Baby raping. I'm sorry, but you're about
as smart as a two-dollar dog, and as well-informed as a bag
of bricks. I'm not going to do any more homework for you
leftwing assholes - you can find data on this if you give a shit.
Which you don't.
> Pheeww! All these horrible
> people eating all those infants -- everywhere you go! Well, maybe I'll have
> to admit, finally, that there really has been more than a little something
> to this "Jew-Nigger Worldwide Conspiracy" after all! Oh, Jayzuz!
> >
As usual in a thread like this, the lefturds wait for their
opponents to call someone a nigger (or a kike, or
whatever) and if it doesn't happen soon enough, they
do it themselves to make sure the words are entered
into discussion. Time after time. <yawn>
Lord Valve
American
mark scialabba
That kind of clashes with the whole invade Iraq think doesn't it?
"But mark, Iraq may harm us in the future"
The Us policies will effect them, good or bad, all the time. So maybe they
do have a right to have an opinion on our issues.
Albert van Schroenen
noc10 <steve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:TUuh9.1432$QI3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > however, that is a domestic tragedy. we were discussing
> u.s. foreign
> > policy, as i recall.
>
> Which is "domestic policy" for us. Butt out.
every person on earth has a legitimate interest in this war. it's true.
the world is globalised. an oil war that also stirs up the hornet's nest of
islam will affect every person on the planet. every foreigner has the right
to try to persuade you.
in any case, the nation-state is becoming an anachronism. with the
superpower balance having gone unipolar, and with the rise of transnational
economics, we are heading towards a united states of earth in fact if not in
law.
you'd comment if nevada was threatening arizona with war.
Elvis Paisley
"Albert van Schroenen" <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3d83f...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> Elvis Paisley <gorp...@sonicsurgery.dok> wrote in message
> news:SgSg9.124956$2L.62...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
>
> > > > Gee, it's ok that
> > > > the US has enough weapons of mass destruction to knock out the whole
> > > planet
> > > > and probably take it out of orbit, but Iraq is not allowed to have
> hand
> > > > grenades or other means to defend their sovereign state?
> > >
> > > it does seem unbalanced, yes. but iraq is evil, whereas the u.s. can
be
> > > trusted to use its weapons only to defend freedom and democracy.
> >
> > As in a pre-emptive attack? Sorry, I don't define that as defending. As
> has
> > been with economic sanctions that leave the majority of the population
> > starving? As in setting up or supporting puppet dictators to get cheap
> > prices for natural resources of these countries?
>
> i was being sarcastic.
Sorry, I should've known.
> > > hmm. it was rather more than a border war: a full-scale invasion and
> > > occupation.
> >
> > Oh, like the phoney incubators stories?
>
> those were phoney, sure, but the occupation was a fact.
Well yes, but basically it was still a matter of Iraq extending it's border.
Q-])
> > Check out this link:
> > http://www.globalcomment.com/current_affairs/article_34.asp
>
> nice quote there:
>
> "Why, of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the
> leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple
> matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
> dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ...Voice or no
> voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That
> is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and
> denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
> danger."
>
> --Hermann Goering, Nazi leader, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II
>
>
>
noc10
Albert, while the people that you hang out with may see the
nation-state as being
on it's way out, (and I have a group of friends here that
think likewise, so I know who
you are, I just don't know if you're the anarchist or the
eco-terror type)
The fact is that the US is a nation-state. And regardless
of your hopes
and desires, the vast majority of us here in the US do not
intend on playing
your one world game. Not for the foreseeable future anyway.
My point is that if we decide to attack Iraq, it will
because we feel that
he threatens us, As we are not a part of Euro-Socialism, we
alone will
decide whether he threatens us, and though we may go to the
UN for
consensus, the US is responsible for it's own defense. That
makes it
a domestic decision.
you may of course back-slap and yell encouragement to your
"fellow traveler friends"
here in the US, but your opinion will not count, you see,
the US is a sovereign
state, you on the other hand are a one-world Socialist
without a state. You do not
vote here.
as far as your reference to Arizona and Nevada goes, your
metaphor falls short.
I would have a right to comment on the internal affairs of
my country.
Your global state fantasies are not reality, you do not
have ANY say in the US.
NONE! None at all!
GeorgeCO
Nah, it doesn't -- at least for now. (Life is full of surprises and you're
never really safe in ruling anything out.)
So, are you going to get crackin' on that musical accompaniment, LV ?
--GeorgeCO
GeorgeCO
Oh, thank you for that well-deserved correction: "baby-rape"
vs."cannibalism of babies"! Well,that *does* change the whole picture now
doesn't it? And in such a fundamental way! It must surely be the result of
being a cheaply purchased canine with the informational capacity of a "bag
of bricks" (Truly among your most effective rhetorical tours de force that
would certainly be the envy of many an orator seeking credibility! And such
a very pointedly cogent and cohesive construct too that doubtless destroys
any credibility I might otherwise have had so wrongly accorded me!) that
blocks my so pitiably benighted mind from searching out *accurate* data
regarding matters which, well, I couldn't possibly give a shit about to
begin with.
Further, I'd only heard so far, that it was the "rape of virgins" in
*Russia* that was fast becoming the widespread folk belief *there* that held
that this practice was of benefit to those suffering from "AIDS".
Well, It *does* seem that the commonest thread that runs through all
vilifications of "those bad people" (wherever they are, whoever they are, at
whatever time) is their horrendous treatment of infants and virgins --
especially the "good people's" infants and virgins.
But why listen to an "asshole" whose "information" is all wrong and is one
who simply "doesn't care"?
It's so comforting to know that there are people around like *you* who know
so much about people like *me* that you can snap us right into line
forthwith.
>
>> Pheeww! All these horrible
>> people eating all those infants -- everywhere you go! Well, maybe I'll have
>> to admit, finally, that there really has been more than a little something
>> to this "Jew-Nigger Worldwide Conspiracy" after all! Oh, Jayzuz!
>>>
> As usual in a thread like this, the lefturds wait for their
> opponents to call someone a nigger (or a kike, or
> whatever) and if it doesn't happen soon enough, they
> do it themselves to make sure the words are entered
> into discussion. Time after time. <yawn>
>
> Lord Valve
> American
And I never knew that either! "Enlightenment" comes in the oddest forms at
times, now doesn't it? Well, it comes as no surprise to you that we
"lefturds" so typically and predictably operate like without variation that
you can assure everyone that it's quite meaningless and formulaic.
GeorgeCO
(May I retain my US citizenship? Oh, thank you in advance!)
Lord Valve
GeorgeCO wrote:
My friend, I can sling obfuscatory verbiage with the
best of 'em - and you're far from the best. Dance all
you'd like - two *facts* remain:
1) Witch doctors in South Africa have told their adherents
that having sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. Because the
younger a girl is, the more likely she is to be a virgin, there
is an *epidemic* of baby-rape in South Africa. It's well
documented, should one be inclined to look.
2) *You* are the first person on this thread to use the word
"nigger."
Choke on it, asshole.
Lord Valve
American - Denver, Colorado