Lotza Questions...
rem...@nando.net
I'm new here, and so glad to find a forum for discussion of one of the greatest fantasy worlds of all
time. I have a few questions I'd like to ask all of you, and I may get some better answers since it seems that
Tracy Hickman posts here regularly.
First, there has been rumor of something about Hiddukel and Raistlin being one and the same. Was this
in a book that I didn't read or something?
Second, there have been rumors (again) of a legal battle betwixt Hickman and Weis and TSR. (But then
who isn't in a legal battle with TSR these days?) Any help here? I spoke to a TSR official, who said he really
couldn't say anything, since everything he knows was told in confidence to him. I was wondering if Tracy would
care to comment...
Third, while I really like Dragonlance, I also enjoyed the Death Gate Cycle, and was wondering if
there were a more suitable forum for such discussion.
Flame me if ya pleeze,
RM
Kevin Stan
FLAME FLAME FLAME---->You've been flamed by Reddawg.
(Sorry, can't help with the q's cept Raistlin and Hudikle)
Raistlin is not one in the same with Hudikel(Sp). Don't know where you
picked it up, but as far as I know, Raistlin is only a wizard. BAM!...oww,
err..I mean the most powerful wizard on all of Krynn and possibly the
abyss.
-Reddawg
TSR Steve
Rem...@nando.net wrote:
> First, there has been rumor of something about Hiddukel and Raistlin
being one and the same. Was this
>in a book that I didn't read or something?
Not to my knowledge.
> Second, there have been rumors (again) of a legal battle betwixt Hickman
and Weis and TSR.
Not to my knowledge.
> Third, while I really like Dragonlance, I also enjoyed the Death Gate
Cycle, and was wondering if
>there were a more suitable forum for such discussion.
Not to my knowledge.
Hey, that was easy! Next! :)
Steve Miller
TSRS...@aol.com
TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Zifnab the Zany
rem...@nando.net said this earlier...:
>I'm new here, and so glad to find a forum for discussion of one of the greatest fantasy worlds of all
>time. I have a few questions I'd like to ask all of you, and I may get some better answers since it seems that
>Tracy Hickman posts here regularly.
> First, there has been rumor of something about Hiddukel and Raistlin being one and the same. Was this
>in a book that I didn't read or something?
Hmm...I dunno 'bout that one...I sincerely remember nothing of that,
and I never even heard such a rumor. I don't think there's anything
close to truth in there..
> Second, there have been rumors (again) of a legal battle betwixt Hickman and Weis and TSR. (But then
>who isn't in a legal battle with TSR these days?) Any help here? I spoke to a TSR official, who said he really
>couldn't say anything, since everything he knows was told in confidence to him. I was wondering if Tracy would
>care to comment...
*shrug* Ain't my place to nose around into other peoples business...
> Third, while I really like Dragonlance, I also enjoyed the Death Gate Cycle, and was wondering if
>there were a more suitable forum for such discussion.
Heh...I like DG alot too. As far as I know, there are no Death Gate
newsgroups. Of course, I haven't checked in awhile and maybe my
provider just doesn't give it.
> Flame me if ya pleeze,
::preparing his flame thrower:: Rare or extra crispy? (:
> RM
---------------------------------------
Zifnab the Zany
http://www.qbc.clic.net/~rrc/andre.html
dra...@qbc.clic.net
---------------------------------------
Jamie1km
In article <4sno3q$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, trhi...@aol.com
(TRHickman) writes:
>(TRH) Would have liked to have seen a Deathgate group somewhere.
>When in doubt, you may always feel free to mail me.
A Death Gate group would be excellent. But since I have no idea how
Usenet
groups get founded, I wouldn't know how to go about starting one...
** Jamie
TRHickman
(TRH) Did someone actually ask for my opinion? ...
In article <4smg14$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR
Steve) writes:
>Rem...@nando.net wrote:
>
>> First, there has been rumor of something about Hiddukel and Raistlin
>being one and the same. Was this
>>in a book that I didn't read or something?
>
>Not to my knowledge.
(TRH) I don't recall this happening either -- Steve certainly would know
better than I. For my money -- no, just another legend blown out of
proportion.
>> Second, there have been rumors (again) of a legal battle betwixt
Hickman
>and Weis and TSR.
>
>Not to my knowledge.
(TRH) It looked like it was going to actually happen a few weeks ago but
things have since settled out quite a bit. I do not believe there will be
any
trouble in the future but only time will tell on that score. More specific
than that, I cannot be at this time. TSR is just trying to do its job --
_how_
it does that job has occasionally sparked some disagreement between us.
Would I cause trouble? :-)}
>> Third, while I really like Dragonlance, I also enjoyed the Death Gate
>Cycle, and was wondering if
>>there were a more suitable forum for such discussion.
>Not to my knowledge.
>
>Hey, that was easy! Next! :)
>
>Steve Miller
>TSRS...@aol.com
>TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
>
>PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
(TRH) Would have liked to have seen a Deathgate group somewhere.
When in doubt, you may always feel free to mail me.
Tracy Hickman
http://www.TRHickman.com
email: TRHi...@aol.com
TRHickman
John R. Troy
>>>Second, there have been rumors (again) of a legal battle betwixt
>Hickman
>>and Weis and TSR.
>>
>>Not to my knowledge.
>
>(TRH) It looked like it was going to actually happen a few weeks ago but
>things have since settled out quite a bit. I do not believe there will be
>any
>trouble in the future but only time will tell on that score. More specific
>than that, I cannot be at this time. TSR is just trying to do its job --
>_how_
>it does that job has occasionally sparked some disagreement between us.
>Would I cause trouble? :-)}
FWIW, I thought something would happen to Tracy Hickman based on his
Web page. I certainly respect what he's trying to do, simply
because...
(a) I don't believe "derivative works" should be interpreted as
broadly as TSR has done and would like to see some strong challenges
to those claims...
(b), I've indirectly been affected by TSR's attitude towards that,
being a big fan of Gary Gygax and his works (Gord, MYTHUS, etc.) I'd
like to see some other writers take a bit of a stand (or at least a
wave), reinforcing the idea to corporate that people who create this
stuff are important, and many are fans of the "name" rather than the
characters.
But, I figured TRH would get the ire of TSR with his use of both the
DragonLance logo and Art from Elmore, etc. I happen to agree with the
policy of enforcing those rights. After all, you can create works
such as Unauthorized Star Trek guides, but you can only sometimes use
photos and can /never/ use their trademarked logos. I think in this
case Tracy Hickman should follow the rules others do.
------------------------------
John R. Troy
john...@tiac.net
TRHickman
In article <31effd5d...@news.tiac.net>, john...@tiac.net (John R.
Troy) writes:
>FWIW, I thought something would happen to Tracy Hickman based on his
>Web page. I certainly respect what he's trying to do, simply
>because...
>
>(a) I don't believe "derivative works" should be interpreted as
>broadly as TSR has done and would like to see some strong challenges
>to those claims...
>
>(b), I've indirectly been affected by TSR's attitude towards that,
>being a big fan of Gary Gygax and his works (Gord, MYTHUS, etc.) I'd
>like to see some other writers take a bit of a stand (or at least a
>wave), reinforcing the idea to corporate that people who create this
>stuff are important, and many are fans of the "name" rather than the
>characters.
>
>But, I figured TRH would get the ire of TSR with his use of both the
>DragonLance logo and Art from Elmore, etc. I happen to agree with the
>policy of enforcing those rights. After all, you can create works
>such as Unauthorized Star Trek guides, but you can only sometimes use
>photos and can /never/ use their trademarked logos. I think in this
>case Tracy Hickman should follow the rules others do.
I agree with you up to a point. The Elmore art that is used there I
actually
own (the original hangs on my office wall). As to the logo usages, there
may be some question -- if TSR has a problem with my identifying myself
with their product in this way, then I suppose they can contact me
although
it is certainly in their best interests to allow me fair use of their logo
based
on the historicity of my association with the product and my continued
support (often at my own expense) of their product line.
Insofar as trademark use (1) supports the original product and (2) does
not harm the trademark -- either financially by not compensating the
copyright owner when money is being made off of the mark or by repute --
I think that this should constitute fair use. While courts may not agree
with that interpretation, I have had no trouble thus far.
It is interesting to note that I never have such questions regarding the
art or trademarks displayed on my site from my products by any
other publisher.
It is also interesting that the problems which I was anticipating related
to TSR's failure to pay their royalties on time and some of their other
practices which demonstrated bad-faith on _their_ part. We are
currently holding our breath as we approach another royalty period.
Tracy Hickman
http://www.TRHickman.com
TRHickman
Jamie1km
In article <4sohit$m...@nuntius.u-net.net>, ma...@hinckley.u-net.com (Sir
Matt Potter) writes:
>Am I the only one who DIDN'T like Deathgate? Dunno, perhaps I didn't
>give it enough time, but I just couldn't get into the series...It was
>pretty much the same with the Darksword Trilogy. I did read it, and I
>thought it was quite good, but the spark that made Dragonlance so
>great seemed to have disappeared.
>
>All just my opinion, of course. No offense.
I'll admit that I couldn't as attached to the characters in other series'
as I did in DRAGONLANCE. (And I think I'm not alone in that.) But
as a fantasy series, Death Gate was spectacular for its well-realized
worlds, a storyline with such a grand scope, and the character
development of its main character. (Haplo went from being something
of an anti-hero in the first novel to a complete turn-around by the end
of the series.)
** Jamie
rem...@nando.net
I have to disagree. I became very attached to the characters, especially the elves on Pryan (or what's
left of them, anyway). However, I didn't really like Fire Sea that much. Maybe it's the atmosphere (quite
literally), maybe its the inhabitants, but I just didn't like the whole background of the world. Pryan and
Chelestra, however, are exceptional fantasy settings.
Just my two coppers,
RM
Daemien
John R. Troy wrote:
>
> >I agree with you up to a point. The Elmore art that is used there I
> >actually own (the original hangs on my office wall). As to the
> >logo usages, there may be some question -- if TSR has a problem
> >with my identifying myself with their product in this way, then
> >I suppose they can contact me
>
> TSR's general art policy, and the fact that it features the
> trademarked characters. I think if you're displaying the covers of
> the actual work you've done, such as the books, that's fine since it
> comes under an "educational" or "informational" role.
>
> >Insofar as trademark use (1) supports the original product and (2) does
> >not harm the trademark -- either financially by not compensating the
> >copyright owner when money is being made off of the mark or by repute --
> >I think that this should constitute fair use. While courts may not agree
> >with that interpretation, I have had no trouble thus far.
>
> understand on Trademark laws. Saying "DragonLance" in plain text,
> with or without the (tm) or (R), is fine, so long as somewhere you
> place recognition. Text is fine. The Logo itself is a form of brand
> recognition, advertising, and somewhat of a "seal of approval".
> That's why they pay the designers the big bucks (or the little bucks
> ;)) to create 'em.
>
> I think its perfectly alright to use the trademark in a plain state,
> but the little lance shouldn't be whipped out, since that sort of
> crosses the line, and I believe is legitimate concern--this regardless
> of the intent of the creator.<SNIP>
> >it is certainly in their
> >best interests to allow me fair use of their logo based
> >on the historicity of my association with the product and my continued
> >support (often at my own expense) of their product line.
>
> expense" line?)<SNIP!>
> I guess the only thing I wonder is--would TSR not go after perceived
> violations just to keep things happy between you, or would they treat
> you just like any other violator. It's something I find very
> interesting.
>
> Two last questions:
>
> (1) Just out of curiousity, did TSR every say anything about Zifnab
> from Death Gate, since he's both similar and theirs even an "almost"
> statement "Fiz--no I can't use that".
Just wondering if anyone out there (probably only Australians) have ever
seen a crappy kids game show (Channel 9) called 'My Generation' which
used the Dragonlance Logo - except taking out the words Dragonlance and
inserting the name of the show.
Fizban or whatever his name is is OK. Any attempt to litigate against W&H
for using him would be difficult because allusing to characters/plots/
in-jokes in Fantasy novels (at least)is a long tradition.
Notice Terry Brooks Sword of Shannara is a by the numbers clone of LOTR?
And remember Halflings? Hobbits arn't they?
And another thing.... I once read somewhere that T$R tried to tardemark
the name NAZI for its Indiana Jones game... sounds far-fetched I know,
but it makes a great story.
Ennyl Nightblade
On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Sir Matt Potter wrote:
> Tracy 'Weird Beard' Hickman sagely sucked on his pipe:
>
> >(TRH) Did someone actually ask for my opinion? ...
>
> >In article <4smg14$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR
> >Steve) writes:
>
> >>Rem...@nando.net wrote:
>
> >>> Third, while I really like Dragonlance, I also enjoyed the Death Gate
> >>Cycle, and was wondering if
> >>>there were a more suitable forum for such discussion.
>
> >>Not to my knowledge.
>
> >(TRH) Would have liked to have seen a Deathgate group somewhere.
> >When in doubt, you may always feel free to mail me.
>
> Am I the only one who DIDN'T like Deathgate? Dunno, perhaps I didn't
> give it enough time, but I just couldn't get into the series...It was
> pretty much the same with the Darksword Trilogy. I did read it, and I
> thought it was quite good, but the spark that made Dragonlance so
> great seemed to have disappeared.
>
> All just my opinion, of course. No offense.
No, you are NOT the only one who didn't like the Deathgate cycle. I
thought it was drawn out way too long, didn't finish it myself. It just
sorta seemed vague and wondering. Just my opinion.
Ennyl Nightblade
>
> --
> Sir Matt Potter (ma...@hinckley.u-net.com)
> "My favourite parks are car parks, grass is something
> you smoke, birds are something you shag, take your 'Year
> in Provence' and shove it up your ass." - Jarvis Cocker.
> Sir Matt Potter - Professional Cynic
>
>
>
Scatt Man
TRHickman wrote:
> I agree with you up to a point. The Elmore art that is used there I
> actually
> own (the original hangs on my office wall). As to the logo usages, there
> may be some question -- if TSR has a problem with my identifying myself
> with their product in this way, then I suppose they can contact me
> it is certainly in their best interests to allow me fair use of their logo
> based
> on the historicity of my association with the product and my continued
> support (often at my own expense) of their product line.
I'll say. The books you and Margaret write have generated more interest (well, for me and my friends atleast)
than any other AD&D product. Without DragonLance, AD&D just wouldn't be the same for me. And what would I
read? I think TSR are hurting themselves if they wont allow you to advertise their product! Its certainly not
going to detract from sales, rather increase sales of your books, hence making more money for both parties!
> Insofar as trademark use (1) supports the original product and (2) does
> not harm the trademark -- either financially by not compensating the
> copyright owner when money is being made off of the mark or by repute --
> I think that this should constitute fair use. While courts may not agree
> with that interpretation, I have had no trouble thus far.
Have to agree with you ... unfortunately, the courts don't see it that way. Any money you make from the sale
of products they are going to get a share of - Legally not fair use maybe, but common sense says that it should
be. Unfortunately, TSR seem to be lacking in common sense in some matters ...
> It is interesting to note that I never have such questions regarding the
> art or trademarks displayed on my site from my products by any
> other publisher.
I wonder why ... nah, must be coincedence :-)
> It is also interesting that the problems which I was anticipating related
> to TSR's failure to pay their royalties on time and some of their other
> practices which demonstrated bad-faith on _their_ part. We are
> currently holding our breath as we approach another royalty period.
Gee, if TSR can't even do the right thing by the people who are writing their products, who can they do the
right thing for? It seems that they are on a mission to piss people off. What we need is for every one to
make a co-ordinated effort to get them to change their ways. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening, as
people without net access would be pretty much oblivious to TSR's ways (as I was until I had net access). If I
had net access before I became addicted to AD&D, maybe I would have chosen a different RPG as my game of choice
TSR Steve
> FWIW, I thought something would happen to Tracy Hickman based on his
> Web page. I certainly respect what he's trying to do, simply
> because...
I'm not TSR's official 'net-rep, so I don't make any calls on these
issues, but when I visited Tracy's page, nothing caught my eye that seemed
a violation... his little disclaimer about TSR Legal aside.
> (a) I don't believe "derivative works" should be interpreted as
> broadly as TSR has done and would like to see some strong challenges
> to those claims...
I'm not a lawyer, but I've got 10 years behind my in creative and
journalism fields, and it seems to me that TSR's *current* stance is,
actually, pretty close to what the legal standards are. (As far as I
understand them, based on my working knowledge.)
> (b), I've indirectly been affected by TSR's attitude towards that,
> being a big fan of Gary Gygax and his works (Gord, MYTHUS, etc.) I'd
> like to see some other writers take a bit of a stand (or at least a
> wave), reinforcing the idea to corporate that people who create this
> stuff are important, and many are fans of the "name" rather than the
> characters.
The stand writers should take is to not do work-for-hire, and when they do
do work-for-hire, they shouldn't sell all rights.
But, you are correct. The creatives behind a world are important, and they
should be visible.
TSR Steve
Tracy Hickman wrote:
> I agree with you up to a point. The Elmore art that is used there I
> actually own (the original hangs on my office wall).
I gotta free up some RAM and go back to your page apparently... I didn't
even notice that picture when I visited. (Of course, the question now
is... when you bought the painting, did you also buy the reproduction
rights? :) )
> Insofar as trademark use (1) supports the original product and (2)
> does not harm the trademark -- either financially by not compensating
> the copyright owner when money is being made off of the mark or by
> repute -- I think that this should constitute fair use. While courts
> may not agree with that interpretation, I have had no trouble thus
> far.
I also think you properly disclaimed the trademarks on your Web page.
> It is interesting to note that I never have such questions regarding
> the art or trademarks displayed on my site from my products by any
> other publisher.
Which might be because TSR has been the only company that I'm aware of
that has been honest enough to admit they're starting to crack down on
trademark misuses and copyright infringements on the 'net.
rem...@nando.net
TSR Steve wrote:
>
> Tracy Hickman wrote:
>
> > I agree with you up to a point. The Elmore art that is used there I
> > actually own (the original hangs on my office wall).
>
> I gotta free up some RAM and go back to your page apparently... I didn't
> even notice that picture when I visited. (Of course, the question now
> is... when you bought the painting, did you also buy the reproduction
> rights? :) )
> > Insofar as trademark use (1) supports the original product and (2)
> > does not harm the trademark -- either financially by not compensating
> > the copyright owner when money is being made off of the mark or by
> > repute -- I think that this should constitute fair use. While courts
> > may not agree with that interpretation, I have had no trouble thus
> > far.
>
> I also think you properly disclaimed the trademarks on your Web page.
Good point.
> > It is interesting to note that I never have such questions regarding
> > the art or trademarks displayed on my site from my products by any
> > other publisher.
>
> Which might be because TSR has been the only company that I'm aware of
> that has been honest enough to admit they're starting to crack down on
> trademark misuses and copyright infringements on the 'net.
Which might be because they are paranoidly scared of losing a single
penny out of their already-substantial pockets. Get real, Steve. You know that
some stuff TSR has tried to do is downright ridiculous, especially during the
dreaded Age of Repp.
My 2 coppers,
RM
TSR Steve
RM wrote:
> Considering the way things are with TSR lately, it doesn't surprise
> me that you asked that...
I'm glad you think I'm acting true to type.
For the record, I really couldn't care less *what* Mr. Hickman purchased
when he bought the Elmore piece. I do recommend that you develope a sense
of humour, RM, or at least make a note of smilies... which are in place
just in case the humour impaired fail to notice good-natured kidding.
[snip]
> Which might be because they are paranoidly scared of losing a single
> penny out of their already-substantial pockets. Get real, Steve. You
> know that some stuff TSR has tried to do is downright ridiculous,
> especially during the dreaded Age of Repp.
That was two years ago, and those policies were abandoned a year ago. I'll
get real when you start paying attention.
And what TSR has tried to do is no more rediculous than scanning and
uploading the entire PHB, modules, copied passages and dozens of
trademarks featured in 'net-books that authors then claim all rights
to--without disclaiming the trademarks--and megabyte upon megabyte of art.
I'm not TSR's official 'net-rep, so, much like I don't give a flying flip
as to what rights Mr. Hickman owns to that Elmore painting [although I can
assume that he either *does* own the reproduction rights, or he just
doesn't care that there's a difference between owning the original
painting and owning the copyright], anything short of gross violations
more or less get ignored by me. And even if I *did* care, the blanket days
of the Age of Repp are long gone, and any notices a real 'net-rep might
send to a web page would be specific about what the violation is.
What I *do* care about--and cared about even before I became a foot
soldier for the Evil Empire--is the high level of cluelessness among
'netters when it comes to copyright and trademarks. (Heck, if Repp or
whoever wrote TSR's first 'net-policy had been able to keep trademarks and
copyrights straight, half the trademark/copyright strife in several
newsgroups would never have arisen, IMO.)
I post in this group because I'm a DRAGONLANCE fan first, and a TSR
employee second. If we are to start another off-topic flamewar that
revolves around bashing TSR or me, though, I'll be happy to pick up the
challenge.
I'd much rather be discussing DRAGONLANCE, but if other people want to get
down in the dirt and roll around...
*My* two coppers worth.
Steve Miller
TSR Steve
Words to live by.
Sorry for being short-tempered, folks.
John R. Troy
>I agree with you up to a point. The Elmore art that is used there I
>with my identifying myself with their product in this way, then
>I suppose they can contact me
To clarify, the Elmore art I brought up was an observation based on
TSR's general art policy, and the fact that it features the
trademarked characters. I think if you're displaying the covers of
the actual work you've done, such as the books, that's fine since it
comes under an "educational" or "informational" role.
>Insofar as trademark use (1) supports the original product and (2) does
>not harm the trademark -- either financially by not compensating the
>copyright owner when money is being made off of the mark or by repute --
>I think that this should constitute fair use. While courts may not agree
>with that interpretation, I have had no trouble thus far.
The Logo I have to disagree with you, simply based on what I
understand on Trademark laws. Saying "DragonLance" in plain text,
with or without the (tm) or (R), is fine, so long as somewhere you
place recognition. Text is fine. The Logo itself is a form of brand
recognition, advertising, and somewhat of a "seal of approval".
That's why they pay the designers the big bucks (or the little bucks
;)) to create 'em.
I think its perfectly alright to use the trademark in a plain state,
but the little lance shouldn't be whipped out, since that sort of
crosses the line, and I believe is legitimate concern--this regardless
of the intent of the creator.
Support is a tough situation? For instance, does an unauthorized
biography count as support? Who determines what is supportive and
what isn't? IMO, it has to be the owner. (I moraly agree with the
creator(s) when there is a conflict, but ethically, I have to support
the owner, otherwise, creator-owners would lose their control,
something I hate to see happen).
>it is certainly in their
>best interests to allow me fair use of their logo based
>on the historicity of my association with the product and my continued
>support (often at my own expense) of their product line.
I'll agree with you there. (Can you clarify the "often at my own
expense" line?)
You (joined at the hip with Margaret, of course) are one of the few
"big names" still taking a role there. Outside of yourself, I think
the only other name with true power there is Bob Salvatore, maybe Ed
Greenwood as well. By big names I mean those whose loss would be felt
and/or opposed by the buying public. (The newer designers don't seem
to have a "breakout" name, and in the case of literature it seems they
are hiring already big names rather than creating new ones). Most
other old timers don't have a following (or a minor one)--maybe Roger
Moore. (Gygax is the big exception, but he has an equal number of
those who loathe him as those who love him. Thus it cancels out.)
I guess the only thing I wonder is--would TSR not go after perceived
violations just to keep things happy between you, or would they treat
you just like any other violator. It's something I find very
interesting.
Two last questions:
(1) Just out of curiousity, did TSR every say anything about Zifnab
from Death Gate, since he's both similar and theirs even an "almost"
statement "Fiz--no I can't use that".
(2) Have you ever considered officialy asking TSR if you can use the
DL logo, getting the official sanction from them? (Assuming of
course, I'm correct in my belief of Trademark law.
Daemien Mortal ^i^
TSR Steve wrote:
> =
> Daemien wrote:
> =
> [about TSR trademarked Nazi]
> =
> > Actually I accidentally stumbled on the AD&D FAQ last night... but
> > now I can't find it again (can someone E-mail me with the address)
> > but I do remember one of the titles dealt with this very subject.
> =
> I assume you didn't read the entry. If the FAQ is at all accurate, you
> would have found that TSR never trademarked Nazi. LucasFilm did. And they=
> trademarked a specific Nazi, much like DC and Marvel each have trademarke=
d
> their specific versions of Death.
> =
> Steve Miller
> TSRS...@aol.com
> TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
> =
> PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Actually I read about 1/2 the FAQ.... noted the bit about the NAzi and =
thought to myself "I must read that"... then my server kicked me out for =
not doing anything for 15 minutes... and I have found a version of the =
faq on the Dnd newsgroup today and all my questions are answered.
-- =
1=BE
Daemien Mortal ^i^
Daemien Mortal ^i^
TSR Steve wrote:
<stuff snipped about comments made by me>
> TSR (it's T*S*R, not T$R) never tried to trademark NAZI. Lucasfilm holds
> that mark, and it's on a very specific NAZI... a stand-up figure in the
> INDIANA JONES RPG that TSR published as a liscenced product in the early
> '80s.
>
> And it makes for about as good a story as anyother lie, I suppose.
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
You forget all the best stories are lies... Like the time my first level
character managed to kill a huge red dragon with a clothing peg....
Daemien Mortal ^i^
John R. Troy wrote:
> =
> On Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:11:13 -0400, rem...@nando.net wrote:
> =
> >Daemien wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Fizban or whatever his name is is OK. Any attempt to litigate against =
W&H
> >> for using him would be difficult because allusing to characters/plots/=
> >> in-jokes in Fantasy novels (at least)is a long tradition.
> >
> > Not to mention that Tracy and Margaret also spoofed Star Wars, St=
ar Trek, the US Space Program, etc.,
> >etc.
> =
> I guess I was just seeing if they did or not.
> =
> >> And another thing.... I once read somewhere that T$R tried to tardemar=
k
> >> the name NAZI for its Indiana Jones game... sounds far-fetched I know,=
> >> but it makes a great story.
> >
> > Somehow I doubt that, but again that just fuels the flame if you =
are that gullible... Care to comment,
> >Steve? :-)
> =
> Er, I've seen that come up several hundred times on the Internet, and
> you /don't/ want to get Steve on that track. FWIW, it was LucasFilm
> who created that Trademark recognition, not TSR.
> ------------------------------
> John R. Troy
> john...@tiac.net
I know I know.... We all make mistake... although mine ofetn result in =
mass terror and destruction....
Too late steve has already publicly dragged me across the hot coals...
but thanks for answering my question anyway...
-- =
1=BE
TSR Steve
Daemien wrote:
> And another thing.... I once read somewhere that T$R tried to
> tardemark the name NAZI for its Indiana Jones game... sounds
> far-fetched I know, but it makes a great story.
Not only is it far-fetched, but it has about as much basis in reality as
do draconians.
rem...@nando.net
Daemien wrote:
> Fizban or whatever his name is is OK. Any attempt to litigate against W&H
> for using him would be difficult because allusing to characters/plots/
> in-jokes in Fantasy novels (at least)is a long tradition.
Not to mention that Tracy and Margaret also spoofed Star Wars, Star Trek, the US Space Program, etc.,
etc.
> Notice Terry Brooks Sword of Shannara is a by the numbers clone of LOTR?
> And remember Halflings? Hobbits arn't they?
To an extent, yes...
i> And another thing.... I once read somewhere that T$R tried to tardemark
> the name NAZI for its Indiana Jones game... sounds far-fetched I know,
> but it makes a great story.
Somehow I doubt that, but again that just fuels the flame if you are that gullible... Care to comment,
Steve? :-)
rem...@nando.net
Okay, Steve, I'm sorry, and perhaps I did misjudge you. I was being humorous about "the way things are
with TSR lately"- probably should have put a smiley there.
As far as copyrights go, I'm half-and-half on the issue - some stuff that was done on TSR's part was
justified, but some wasn't, and it is true that some netters have been overly hostile about it (Morpheus, as
much as I do respect his website).
And now, a subject change to save my wounded pride - were you on the original DL design team? I
thought I remembered your name mentioned in some DL books, but I could be mistaken.
Begging for some aloe after that flame, I am yours humbly -
RM
Sean Morrow
I started reading DragonLance almost 6 years ago and when first I was introduced to
the character of Sturm, the Solamnic Knight, I persieved his name as Strum. As in
strumming a lute. He stayed Strum in my eyes for years after, until I read Darkness
and Light. I was shocked to find his name was actually Sturm. I have talked to others
that also initially thought the knight's name was Strum. I thought that the very first
reference to him may have been misspelled thus but upon research, I found that he was
indeed refered to as Sturm.
I am wondering if there is anyone out there who had the misconception I did.
I am sorry if I violated the Internet Code of Conduct in some way posting this. It is
my first post and I would appreciate advice and insight into newsgroup culture.
I dont't know if the first one went so I am reposting this.
I haven't thought of a whitty nick-Name yet.
Sean will have to do for now.
Naltia
In article <31F1B0...@cc.curtin.edu.au>, Daemien
<pbla...@cc.curtin.edu.au> writes:
>And remember Halflings? Hobbits arn't they?
>
>
Which many people say TSR stole from J.R.R. Tolkeins "The Hobbit" but in
fact the idea for Hobbits came from Welsh (sp?) mythology.
:-)
Kiadi
The Kender with Multiple Personality Syndrome
Scatt Man
TSR Steve wrote:
> I post in this group because I'm a DRAGONLANCE fan first, and a TSR
> employee second. If we are to start another off-topic flamewar that
> revolves around bashing TSR or me, though, I'll be happy to pick up the
> challenge.
Ok, I'll just grab my gnomish Flamemaster 2000(TM) from Gnometel(TM) - TSR note trademarks! Gauranteed not to
work to your satusfaction, or your money back. Is it really possible that you are a dragonlance fan first, TSR
employee second. Aren't fan of DragonLance and employee if TSR mutually exclusive? I thought TSR were fans of
1000000000000000000000000gp first, and the game if they have to be.
my 2cp worth also
<note - TSR Steve don't get pissed of and starts flame war> :-) </note>
Just in case you can't understand, that means that this is in no way intended to start a flame war. Although
if you really want to, go ahead. I've got pleanty of time, it doesn't cost me anything to take part, and I
quite enjoy flame wars (they help me stock up on insults for other people).
--
- Shane King aka Scatt Man (scat...@bssc.edu.au)
Now on the web! Find me at : http://www.bssc.edu.au/student/king.s/
TSR Steve
Scatt Man wrote:
> Is it really possible that you are a dragonlance fan first, TSR
> employee second.
Considering that DRAGONLANCE was the first AD&D gameworld I was a aware of
[DL 12 caused me to fall in love immediately], and that I was DMing it
using D&D rules (I refused to use AD&D because I decided Gygax was a
bonehead upon reading his op-ed pieced in DRAGON), I would have to answer,
"Yes."
> Aren't fan of DragonLance and employee if TSR mutually exclusive?
Naw... only if you work on PLANESCAPE. But then those guys are so hip they
hate everything. :)
Nick Vogel
Sean Morrow <dunn...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in article
<31F86C...@sk.sympatico.ca>...
> I started reading DragonLance almost 6 years ago and when first I was
introduced to
> the character of Sturm, the Solamnic Knight, I persieved his name as
Strum. As in
> strumming a lute. He stayed Strum in my eyes for years after, until I
read Darkness
> and Light. I was shocked to find his name was actually Sturm. I have
talked to others
> that also initially thought the knight's name was Strum. I thought that
the very first
> reference to him may have been misspelled thus but upon research, I found
that he was
> indeed refered to as Sturm.
> I am wondering if there is anyone out there who had the misconception I
did.
I had the same impression at first.. but after reading the first book with
him in it.. (it was one of the Meetings ) I realized my mastake. But I do
see what you mean :)
Nick
Kevin Stan
Don't worry, the internet is an easy going place....just don't post in a
newsgroup with a post that has nothing to d owith the topic(like posting
starwars in dragonlace...or worst of all advertizing in any newsgroup that
isn't specified for buisnesses and advertizing...you'll get your ass
chewed right off) You post is great, infact it's interesting..even better.
The fact that you missed the name(Strum instead of Sturm) happens
alot...try Tekhisis. I don't even know if I spelled it right. I guess
that's why everyone calls her the Dark Queen :). Keep up the posts, your
doin fine :).
-Reddawg
TSR Steve
Daemien wrote:
[about TSR trademarked Nazi]
> Actually I accidentally stumbled on the AD&D FAQ last night... but
> now I can't find it again (can someone E-mail me with the address)
> but I do remember one of the titles dealt with this very subject.
I assume you didn't read the entry. If the FAQ is at all accurate, you
would have found that TSR never trademarked Nazi. LucasFilm did. And they
trademarked a specific Nazi, much like DC and Marvel each have trademarked
their specific versions of Death.
Steve Miller
John R. Troy
On Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:11:13 -0400, rem...@nando.net wrote:
>Daemien wrote:
>
>
>> Fizban or whatever his name is is OK. Any attempt to litigate against W&H
>> for using him would be difficult because allusing to characters/plots/
>> in-jokes in Fantasy novels (at least)is a long tradition.
>
> Not to mention that Tracy and Margaret also spoofed Star Wars, Star Trek, the US Space Program, etc.,
>etc.
I guess I was just seeing if they did or not.
>> And another thing.... I once read somewhere that T$R tried to tardemark
>> the name NAZI for its Indiana Jones game... sounds far-fetched I know,
>> but it makes a great story.
>
> Somehow I doubt that, but again that just fuels the flame if you are that gullible... Care to comment,
>Steve? :-)
Er, I've seen that come up several hundred times on the Internet, and
TSR Steve
John R. Troy wrote:
> Er, I've seen that come up several hundred times on the Internet, and
> you /don't/ want to get Steve on that track.
Hehehehe...
Too late...
::gearing up the gnomish auto-responder/trademark debate program::
Zifnab the Zany
nal...@aol.com (Naltia) said this earlier...:
>Which many people say TSR stole from J.R.R. Tolkeins "The Hobbit" but in
>fact the idea for Hobbits came from Welsh (sp?) mythology.
K..thats where we get mayhaps a little philosophical. All ideas are
based on something. Whether published or not, 'tis stilll something
the occurred in the creator of the idea's life that caused him/her to
think it up. So, in effect, every new idea is basically taking a
little something, copying if you will, from everything that has
happened to that person. Even Tolkien had to have gotten his idea from
somewherre..or a collection of somewheres...and from all those places,
they got their ideas from somewhere before them...etc...etc. (I'm not
touching anything that goes near the question "Well, what about the
first people?". Got no answer for that) (:
---------------------------------------
Zifnab the Zany
http://www.qbc.clic.net/~rrc/andre.html
dra...@qbc.clic.net
---------------------------------------
TRHickman
(TRH) I've been enjoying our discussion here, John. It's given me
a lot to think about ...
In article <31f437bc...@news.tiac.net>, john...@tiac.net (John R.
Troy) writes:
>To clarify, the Elmore art I brought up was an observation based on
>TSR's general art policy, and the fact that it features the
>trademarked characters. I think if you're displaying the covers of
>the actual work you've done, such as the books, that's fine since it
>comes under an "educational" or "informational" role.
(TRH) As TSRSteve noted elsewhere, while I may have purchased the
painting, I did NOT purchase the reproduction rights. However, I am
displaying here since there was a book product with my name on it
which did bear that cover. I have to note that my situation is unique.
(snip)
>I think its perfectly alright to use the trademark in a plain state,
>but the little lance shouldn't be whipped out, since that sort of
>crosses the line, and I believe is legitimate concern--this regardless
>of the intent of the creator.
(snip)
>Support is a tough situation? For instance, does an unauthorized
>biography count as support? Who determines what is supportive and
>what isn't? IMO, it has to be the owner. (I moraly agree with the
>creator(s) when there is a conflict, but ethically, I have to support
>the owner, otherwise, creator-owners would lose their control,
>something I hate to see happen).
(TRH) This, of course, is the crux of the issue when it comes to creators
who need producers to get their ideas before the public: just how
much of one's soul does one sell? Normally this is not an issue
with larger publishing houses because in such cases the success
of the product is mutually benefitial. TSR, however, is a small
'third-world' publishing house whose practices aren't in line with
the larger world of real publishing. I find myself somewhat at the
center of a firestorm currently over all the horrid little things they
have done to their creatives -- none of which has to do with the
vision of their product and everything to do with bad and unethical
business practices.
Still, as you say, the law is the law. I am the first one to stand up
and say that exceptions weaken the law.
>>it is certainly in their
>>best interests to allow me fair use of their logo based
>>on the historicity of my association with the product and my continued
>>support (often at my own expense) of their product line.
>
>I'll agree with you there. (Can you clarify the "often at my own
>expense" line?)
(TRH) One example: for over a decade now I've been attending
GENCON. They've never so much as thanked us for it, to my
knowledge, let alone helped out with the expense.
>You (joined at the hip with Margaret, of course) are one of the few
>"big names" still taking a role there. Outside of yourself, I think
>the only other name with true power there is Bob Salvatore, maybe Ed
>Greenwood as well. By big names I mean those whose loss would be felt
>and/or opposed by the buying public. (The newer designers don't seem
>to have a "breakout" name, and in the case of literature it seems they
>are hiring already big names rather than creating new ones). Most
>other old timers don't have a following (or a minor one)--maybe Roger
>Moore. (Gygax is the big exception, but he has an equal number of
>those who loathe him as those who love him. Thus it cancels out.)
>
>I guess the only thing I wonder is--would TSR not go after perceived
>violations just to keep things happy between you, or would they treat
>you just like any other violator. It's something I find very
>interesting.
(TRH) Considering how they've been treating us lately, I rather doubt
that they would go lightly on me. :-)}
>Two last questions:
>
>(1) Just out of curiousity, did TSR every say anything about Zifnab
>from Death Gate, since he's both similar and theirs even an "almost"
>statement "Fiz--no I can't use that".
(TRH) Never heard a word from them on the subject.
>(2) Have you ever considered officialy asking TSR if you can use the
>DL logo, getting the official sanction from them? (Assuming of
>course, I'm correct in my belief of Trademark law.
(TRH) That's a great idea, and I certainly would pursue it IF I thought
it would do any good. I once asked TSR what they would charge me
to purchase a product I had worked on. The product was NEVER going
to be produced -- it was dead and burried. I wanted to use it as the
basis of a book ... didn't even want to put out a game on the subject.
They wouldn't even quote me a price. It's a dog with a bone.
Believe me -- I've been there.
The sad thing is that I'd love to admin an official DL website for them
without taking a dime for my time. It still amazes me that they don't
have a GENCON page up somewhere.
Tracy Hickman
TRHickman
TRHickman
(TRH) Hmmm ...
In article <4t7rfu$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR
Steve) writes:
>Daemien wrote:
>
>> And another thing.... I once read somewhere that T$R tried to
>> tardemark the name NAZI for its Indiana Jones game... sounds
>> far-fetched I know, but it makes a great story.
>
>Not only is it far-fetched, but it has about as much basis in reality as
>do draconians.
>
>TSR (it's T*S*R, not T$R) never tried to trademark NAZI. Lucasfilm holds
>that mark, and it's on a very specific NAZI... a stand-up figure in the
>INDIANA JONES RPG that TSR published as a liscenced product in the early
>'80s.
>
>And it makes for about as good a story as anyother lie, I suppose.
(TRH) Steve, I was there for that one. Lucasfilm DID request that TSR
trademark NAZI for it's Indiana Jones RPG and, as I recall, the figure
you mention did bear the small text saying: "NAZI is a trademark of
Lucasfilm, Inc." In as much at TSR did the filing for the trademark,
TSR _did_ attempt to trademark NAZI -- even if it was for a client.
In this sense, then, the poster is correct.
Sorry :-)}
Tracy Hickman
TRHickman
Naltia
When I first read Dragonlance, I called him Sturnum. So don't feel bad.
:-)
Jerip Netsetter (Jr.)
TSR Steve
Tracy Hickman wrote:
> Steve, I was there for that one. Lucasfilm DID request that TSR
> trademark NAZI for it's Indiana Jones RPG and, as I recall, the
> figure you mention did bear the small text saying: "NAZI is a
> trademark of Lucasfilm, Inc."
Yup, that's the one.
> In as much at TSR did the filing for the trademark, TSR _did_ attempt
> to trademark NAZI -- even if it was for a client. In this sense,
> then, the poster is correct. Sorry :-)}
:)
Maybe I gave the poster too little credit, but usually that kind of fine
technicality is not what they have in mind... particularly not when they
toss gratiutous insults into the post.
Daemien Mortal ^i^
TSR Steve wrote:
> =
> Tracy Hickman wrote:
> =
> > Steve, I was there for that one. Lucasfilm DID request that TSR
> > trademark NAZI for it's Indiana Jones RPG and, as I recall, the
> > figure you mention did bear the small text saying: "NAZI is a
> > trademark of Lucasfilm, Inc."
> =
> Yup, that's the one.
> =
> > In as much at TSR did the filing for the trademark, TSR _did_ attempt
> > to trademark NAZI -- even if it was for a client. In this sense,
> > then, the poster is correct. Sorry :-)}
> =
> :)
> =
> Maybe I gave the poster too little credit, but usually that kind of fine
> technicality is not what they have in mind... particularly not when they
> toss gratiutous insults into the post.
I assume I am that poster.. and I have already explained my naivity when =
glancing (not reading the faq).... And the place I gained said info from =
was a friend of mine who wrote one of the Rolemaster books who told me =
that TSR had tried to TM Nazi.,...
Anyway... can we please forget about this now.... I feel kind of foolish: =
especially since the question is answered in the faq?
1=BE
Daemien Mortal ^i^
TSR Steve wrote:
> =
> Tracy Hickman wrote:
> =
> :)
> =
There is a moral here isn't there?
1=BE
Jamie1km
In article <31F86C...@sk.sympatico.ca>, Sean Morrow
<dunn...@sk.sympatico.ca> writes:
>I started reading DragonLance almost 6 years ago and when first I was
>introduced to
>the character of Sturm, the Solamnic Knight, I persieved his name as
Strum.
>As in
>strumming a lute. He stayed Strum in my eyes for years after, until I
read
>Darkness
>and Light. I was shocked to find his name was actually Sturm. I have
talked
>to others
>that also initially thought the knight's name was Strum. I thought that
the
>very first
>reference to him may have been misspelled thus but upon research, I found
>that he was
>indeed refered to as Sturm.
>I am wondering if there is anyone out there who had the misconception I
did.
>
My first introduction to DRAGONLANCE was my father telling me
about it after playing the module "Dragons of Despair" in his friend's
AD&D campaign. He told me all about his fighter character, "Strum
Brightblade." (My father is mildly dislexic.) I thought of him as
Strum until I read DRAGONS OF AUTUMN TWILIGHT, where I
realized the mistake and corrected my father.
(Of course, our gaming group's pronunciations of the names in DL
were often very different from the "correct" pronunciations used by
authors
and designers at conventions.)
** Jamie
rem...@nando.net
TSR Steve wrote:
>
> Scatt Man wrote:
> > Aren't fan of DragonLance and employee if TSR mutually exclusive?
>
> Naw... only if you work on PLANESCAPE. But then those guys are so hip they
> hate everything. :)
>
> Steve Miller
You lost me on this one - do I sense dissention in the TSR ranks?
rem...@nando.net
Jamie1km wrote:
>
> (Of course, our gaming group's pronunciations of the names in DL
> were often very different from the "correct" pronunciations used by
> authors
> and designers at conventions.)
>
> ** Jamie
Yeah, I'd like some official input on this - Goldmooon and Riverwind are obvious, and none of the
names seem particularly tongue-tying, but syllable emphasis is a problem. Like Caramon - I always pronounced
the "cara-" like "caramel" and "-mon" like the reggae slang (As in "Hey, mon!") And how about full elven names
like Lauranlanthalasa and Gilthanas?
rem...@nando.net
TSR Steve wrote:
>
> John R. Troy wrote:
>
> > Er, I've seen that come up several hundred times on the Internet, and
> > you /don't/ want to get Steve on that track.
>
> Hehehehe...
>
> Too late...
>
> ::gearing up the gnomish auto-responder/trademark debate program::
>
> TSRS...@aol.com
> TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
>
> PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Yeah, I'm still milking aloe plants from that last flame he threw on me...
rem...@nando.net
Kevin Stan wrote:
>
> Gee,
> if only myths were copyrighted, then TSR could be sued for once.
> :)
> -Reddawg
Sad but true...
TSR Steve
> You lost me on this one - do I sense dissention in the TSR ranks?
Not really. The PLANESCAPE line is the one with the "attitude," if you
take a look at the products. The designers and editors on the line take
alot of kidding for it.
And, as you should be aware--particularly on Usenet--it's hip to hate
things, but not so hip to like 'em. :)
In other words, it was another of my attempts at humour that fell flat.
rem...@nando.net
John R. Troy wrote:
> Actually, I think the new medium of RPGs and their associated
> properties have ended up creating the restrictive medium. It seems
> that TSR forms its policies much similar to other areas of the
> Entertainment industry. Big business ends up taking root in a lot of
> Entertainment, (most notably Hollywood).
>
> TSR, and the entire RPG industry at times, seems to have taken its
> definition from the industry of comics books. Both lines have
> similarites. The companies own one or more "shared worlds", in many
> cases the writers are secondary to the characters, there are many
> "spin-off" mediums, and a lot of the work done is "work for hire" and
> lines are perpetuated. At an earlier time in my life, I thought
> highly of this medium, but I've seen too much occur that has soured
> the weaknesses of these products. In a 1986 Interview, Lorainne
> Willams spoke about D&D and DragonLance, and stated that is was
> "amazing the product has such a long lifecycle". Creators who own
> companies usually don't see things in such a cold, clinical manner.
>
> What bothers me most is that the practices of a company like TSR
> affects the rest of the industry somewhat, both games and books. With
> the former--I think it was Frank Mentzer who put it this
> way--companies for the most part follow TSR's precedent. I would like
> to see, for instance, a milieu such as DragonLance seperated from the
> game system (AD&D or SAGA), and creators of that world gain rights to
> it. (It's similar to how TSR has handled licensed properties, they
> own the game system, everything else is the licensors). I think it
> would be more satisfying--creators would have freedom and control, and
> publishers would gain money. (That doesn't mean Work-for-Hire could
> or should totally be eliminated, since I can't see it on a per-module
> basis in a shared milieu). But If disagreement occurs, the milieu is
> free to go elsewhere, and the system is left intact.
>
> And--my worst fear of all--I fear that the success of long, drawn out
> shared worlds and multimedia properties dilutes the work of
> traditional fiction. Licensed properties seem to be taking up more
> and more space. Some "classic works" have become hard-to-find because
> of publisher producing lines of 50+ Star Trek books (which, should be
> noted, aren't even considered "official" to the primary timetables).
> IMO, DragonLance and such lines have ended up replacing Tolkien as the
> Fantasy Primer for people. Will success of these lines--corporate
> owned, writers secondary at times--convince publishers to support
> these over others. The jury is out, and only time will tell.
>
> Too much of a rant here...forgive me.
S'okay... well said.
>
> >>(2) Have you ever considered officialy asking TSR if you can use the
> >>DL logo, getting the official sanction from them? (Assuming of
> >>course, I'm correct in my belief of Trademark law.
> >
> >(TRH) That's a great idea, and I certainly would pursue it IF I thought
> >it would do any good. I once asked TSR what they would charge me
> >to purchase a product I had worked on. The product was NEVER going
> >to be produced -- it was dead and burried. I wanted to use it as the
> >basis of a book ... didn't even want to put out a game on the subject.
> >They wouldn't even quote me a price. It's a dog with a bone.
> >Believe me -- I've been there.
>
> Hmm...and here I thought they were trying to change.
Agreed... but you're gonna get flamed by some people.... >:-)
> >The sad thing is that I'd love to admin an official DL website for them
> >without taking a dime for my time. It still amazes me that they don't
> >have a GENCON page up somewhere.
> >
> Based on comments Sean has stated, I'd say TSR seems to be dragging
> its feet. I have to wonder if the Internet threatens some of their
> business. After all, for the most part, you don't have to pay for
> what's on a web page. I can't see TSR ever giving away loads of
> Artwork for free download, for instance. (Though they are active on
> AOL, so I don't understand the aversion.)
>
> It's too bad, because out of the hundreds of companies on the
> Internet, publishing companies have the most to provide.
> ------------------------------
> John R. Troy
> john...@tiac.net
I wonder if, if we could get enough people to sign a petition, we could convince TSR to let you do
just that... but then, like you said, dog w/ a bone. >:-(
John R. Troy
On 27 Jul 1996 12:34:31 -0400, trhi...@aol.com (TRHickman) wrote:
>(TRH) I've been enjoying our discussion here, John. It's given me
>a lot to think about ...
Thanks.
(I actually have some more on this discussion that I'll save that for
E-Mail, since it has nothing to do with DL but rather a personal
perspective on copyright law, etc.)
>(TRH) As TSRSteve noted elsewhere, while I may have purchased the
>painting, I did NOT purchase the reproduction rights. However, I am
>displaying here since there was a book product with my name on it
>which did bear that cover. I have to note that my situation is unique.
I guess maybe I think that a better disclaimer on the page or
something would solve that problem. At least perhaps a statement such
as "Elmore illustration and characters copyright <whatever> TSR, used
for <whatever fair use purpose>. Perhaps using a scan of the actual
Product would be better, since then you're showing an actual sample of
your work, which TSR can't really complain about.
>(TRH) This, of course, is the crux of the issue when it comes to creators
>who need producers to get their ideas before the public: just how
>much of one's soul does one sell? Normally this is not an issue
>with larger publishing houses because in such cases the success
>of the product is mutually benefitial. TSR, however, is a small
>'third-world' publishing house whose practices aren't in line with
>the larger world of real publishing. I find myself somewhat at the
>center of a firestorm currently over all the horrid little things they
>have done to their creatives -- none of which has to do with the
>vision of their product and everything to do with bad and unethical
>business practices.
Actually, I think the new medium of RPGs and their associated
>Still, as you say, the law is the law. I am the first one to stand up
>and say that exceptions weaken the law.
Just so I make it clear, I support challenging certain laws, standing
for principles, etc. Some of the laws, TSR's claims, etc, aren't
morally right or I believe ethical and have no true legal basis. I
just was pointing out an ethical dilema, wondering if there is a line
that shouldn't be crossed for the good of the greater whole. I think
people should fight--but they need to fight with some /honor/.
There are many people out on the Internet who are /not/ fighting with
honor, at best because they are misguided, at worst because they are
being selfish. (Of course, what is honorable and what isn't on this
subject is open to a lot of debate.)
>>I'll agree with you there. (Can you clarify the "often at my own
>>expense" line?)
>
>(TRH) One example: for over a decade now I've been attending
>GENCON. They've never so much as thanked us for it, to my
>knowledge, let alone helped out with the expense.
I actually thought you did this to support your own projects, as book
writers. But then again, I never get to go to GenCon.
>>(2) Have you ever considered officialy asking TSR if you can use the
>>DL logo, getting the official sanction from them? (Assuming of
>>course, I'm correct in my belief of Trademark law.
>
>(TRH) That's a great idea, and I certainly would pursue it IF I thought
>it would do any good. I once asked TSR what they would charge me
>to purchase a product I had worked on. The product was NEVER going
>to be produced -- it was dead and burried. I wanted to use it as the
>basis of a book ... didn't even want to put out a game on the subject.
>They wouldn't even quote me a price. It's a dog with a bone.
>Believe me -- I've been there.
Hmm...and here I thought they were trying to change.
Your statement reflects something that Frank Mentzer had stated.
Apparently TSR has a lot of their stuff in vaults that they haven't
released and have no plans to release at all. (And I am remembering
his Convert problem). Many places would allow unpublished works to be
returned.
That's definately something that needs to be changed.
>The sad thing is that I'd love to admin an official DL website for them
>without taking a dime for my time. It still amazes me that they don't
>have a GENCON page up somewhere.
>
Feydrrin
When I first read the Chronicles, I looked at Tanis as Tanzis, Kitiara as
Kitara, and Raistlin as Rozalyn. Weird huh?
(please don't start w/the whole gay/bisexual thread again)
Kevin Stan
Pronouncment of Charicters:
Caramon= Cara(right, as in caramel) and mon(as in regge MON.), Right?
Raistlin Raist(rai as in "sun ray" and "stlin" as it sounds, "stl" and
"in" as in "in the right way, stupid gully dwarf!"
Lauranlanthalasa Oh boy... (I always thought of her as lauralanthalasa,
not lauraNlanthalasa) Laur(as in hick slang, your a laur, and don't you
tell me that you laur!) or as simple as lauran lan as in land, tha as in
tha hell your problem?, lasa as is sounds, lahsah
laurinlahnthahlasah.
Tasslehoff Burrfoot... Tassle as in that rugg has 4 tassles hoff as in I'm
hoff to see my neighbor. Burr as in Burr I'm cold, and you can get foot.
Tekhissis...Tech hiss(snake sound) iss(hiss sound with out the h)
Lurana...leurahnah
Sturm...hmmm
Gilthas...fishes "gill" thahs right with out the t
Tika...Teeka
Otick(SP) Ohtick
Tanis Tan(I'm tan today) iss(snakesound w/out the h)
Can't think of any, post what you think their names sound like.
-Reddawg
Jonathan Nusholtz
In article <4thpd2$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, feyd...@aol.com says...
>
>When I first read the Chronicles, I looked at Tanis as Tanzis, Kitiara as
>Kitara, and Raistlin as Rozalyn. Weird huh?
>
> (please don't start w/the whole gay/bisexual thread again)
Raistlin as a nickname and thought he misspelled it because it was missing
a second "a". Tolkein's books were even worse. Gandalf was Gandalaf, and I
don't even want to talk about Lothlorien.
Jonathan
Jamie1km
In article <4thlal$p...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Rel...@ix.netcom.com(John B. Halpin II) writes:
>Belive it our not but I actually misspronouced "Raistlin" for a time.
>I can't remember how, though, I corrected the mistake a long time ago.
>You should try my name! Ree/l/an/sa! Toodles!-Relansa Kanan, Princess
>of Qualinesti
My old gaming buddies still pronounce Raistlin as RAS-TLIN. Kitirara was
KIH-TEE-RA. I won't even mention how we at Xak Tsaroth at eleven years
old!
** Jamie
John R. Troy
If only the copyright and IP laws were in the hands of KENDER...
>:->
Adriene Gilbert
jami...@aol.com (Jamie1km) wrote:
>My old gaming buddies still pronounce Raistlin as RAS-TLIN. Kitirara was
>KIH-TEE-RA. I won't even mention how we at Xak Tsaroth at eleven years
>old!
>
> ** Jamie
I perfer RAS-TLIN cuz I think it sounds better in short form. As for Xak
Tsaroth...it changes every time unless I'm looking at it ;)
Adrienne Gilbert
TSR Steve
> I would like
> to see, for instance, a milieu such as DragonLance seperated from the
> game system (AD&D or SAGA), and creators of that world > gain rights to
> it. (It's similar to how TSR has handled licensed properties, they
> own the game system, everything else is the licensors). > I think it
> would be more satisfying--creators would have freedom > and control, and
> publishers would gain money.
But which creators would be in control? DRAGONLANCE as we have it today
was the product of several TSR staff members, not just Tracy Hickman and
his typewriter.
I'm all for creator's rights, but I also know that there are certain
trade-offs when you give up your independence for a steady paycheck.
> And--my worst fear of all--I fear that the success of long, drawn out
> shared worlds and multimedia properties dilutes the work of
> traditional fiction.
I have the same fear. You know how I combat it? I don't buy many
merchandizing novels. Frankly, I didn't read a DRAGONLANCE novel until TSR
hired me to work on the DRAGONLANCE line. I know the game material
backwards and forwards and it stands in my mind as TSR's greatest
gameworld, but I'd always stayed away from the novels because I'd rather
spend my money supporting fiction that doesn't originate with a
merchandizing effort.
Now, that's not to say that I've not enjoyed reading the DRAGONLANCE
novels. Most of them are quite good, although I must admit that my love
for the world would not have been as strong as it is if I'd encountered
the novels first. (In my not-so-humble opinion, most authors mishandle
and/or shortchange the characters from the potential their character
sketches in the game material hints at.)
> IMO, DragonLance and such lines have ended up replacing Tolkien as
> the Fantasy Primer for people. Will success of these lines--corporate
> owned, writers secondary at times--convince publishers to support
> these over others. The jury is out, and only time will tell.
Well, you can't blame publishers for giving people what they want. (Well,
I suppose you *can*, but then you have to blame them for wanting to stay
in business.)
But, you are correct. Only time will tell. I do like to think that the
pendulum will eventually swing away from all the merchandizing tie-ins. I
mean, even TSR, the King of Tie-In Fantasy novels, keeps flirting with
novels that aren't tie-ins. (Like most of what comes out under the TSR
Books imprint.)
Beezie Dee
In article <4tj4t8$q...@peru.it.earthlink.net> emo...@earthlink.net (Jonathan Nusholtz) writes:
>From: emo...@earthlink.net (Jonathan Nusholtz)
>Subject: Re: Sturm named Strum?
>Date: 29 Jul 1996 19:54:16 GMT
I called Raistlin Rastlin and Sturm Strum for ages.
Beezie
Ravnos
'Lo all...
>But which creators would be in control? DRAGONLANCE as we have it today
>was the product of several TSR staff members, not just Tracy Hickman and
>his typewriter.
I was amazed such an ingenious work came out of so many minds. Normally its
difficult to get two people to sit down and agree on things much less a whole
commitee.
>I have the same fear. You know how I combat it? I don't buy many
>merchandizing novels. Frankly, I didn't read a DRAGONLANCE novel until TSR
>hired me to work on the DRAGONLANCE line. I know the game material
>backwards and forwards and it stands in my mind as TSR's greatest
>gameworld, but I'd always stayed away from the novels because I'd rather
>spend my money supporting fiction that doesn't originate with a
>merchandizing effort.
I started reading Dragonlance when the first modules were released, many moons
ago. I played them about 100 times in that year alone. They inspired me to
go for the novels. Going through Dragonlance as a player for the first time
is an amazing experience, I never wanted to leave.
>Now, that's not to say that I've not enjoyed reading the DRAGONLANCE
>novels. Most of them are quite good, although I must admit that my love
>for the world would not have been as strong as it is if I'd encountered
>the novels first. (In my not-so-humble opinion, most authors mishandle
>and/or shortchange the characters from the potential their character
>sketches in the game material hints at.)
Everyone has their own view of the characters. Some people see Raistlin as a
tragic hero type, others see him as an evil save-his-own-ass type. I almost
fainted when I saw the Defenders of Magic trilogy for the first time. 'You
mean a set of Dragonlance novels NOT about the Companions, or explaining some
story talked about in the Chronicles or Legends?!' There were other
independant novels before, but nothing to this extent. I look forward to the
short story anthologies just because its so nice to see new characters, new
ideas, even new races and monsters, all set in the same world under the same
rules.
>Well, you can't blame publishers for giving people what they want. (Well,
>I suppose you *can*, but then you have to blame them for wanting to stay
>in business.)
Blaming the publishers is not really the way to go... blaming the
almighty dollar would be more on the mark.
>But, you are correct. Only time will tell. I do like to think that the
>pendulum will eventually swing away from all the merchandizing tie-ins. I
>mean, even TSR, the King of Tie-In Fantasy novels, keeps flirting with
>novels that aren't tie-ins. (Like most of what comes out under the TSR
>Books imprint.)
I think at this point, tie-in novels are getting irritating to most people.
They have seen their favorite characters done and re-done by several authors
story lines twisted and timelines hacked to hell. I personally think that the
authors name is going to sell me a book before the title or cover art. If I
see a book by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, chances are I'm going to buy
it, just to see what they are up to now.
I still think people have every right to be annoyed at all the tie-ins, and
off shoots. But I suppose, with so many people working on a project, every
one wants their input, and has a right to do so. No Dragonlance wasn't soley
a product of Margaret and Tracy's wordprocessing abilities... it was a team
effort, and new people come in to the team all the time. Some better than
others... but regardless, they are all part of Dragonlance, and it would take
quite a bit to turn me off of it.
I don't know what to think of the Fifth Age yet... haven't gotten much info on
it, been too busy with Real Life(tm) But as long as TSR continues to put out
decent novels, some good artwork, and some awesome adventures I believe we
will all go along for the ride. If only to see what happens to our favorite
world... for good or for bad.
Anyway... I think I'm done rambling...
Feel free to drop me a line any time.
Ravnos.
--
L. Adam Dawson aka Ravnos
Administrator on StarMUD - starmud.solace.mh.se 4000
TRHickman
Oh, Steve, be careful: I think you just stepped into a minefield ...
In article <4tk5b5$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR
Steve) writes:
>> I would like
>> to see, for instance, a milieu such as DragonLance seperated from the
>> game system (AD&D or SAGA), and creators of that world > gain rights to
>> it. (It's similar to how TSR has handled licensed properties, they
>> own the game system, everything else is the licensors). > I think it
>> would be more satisfying--creators would have freedom > and control,
and
>> publishers would gain money.
>
>But which creators would be in control? DRAGONLANCE as we have it today
>was the product of several TSR staff members, not just Tracy Hickman and
>his typewriter.
(TRH) Huh? Aside from not having used a typewriter since 1981, I take no
issue with the fact that Dragonlance was a team effort. Cooperation among
the team members was never an issue -- it was the relationship between
the team and management that always was the problem. Further, I must
point out the rather un-PC truth that even the most cooperative team must
have a leader to function and succeed. That leader must have a central
vision against which all the other work is coordinated. When I was there,
that vision was mine. Now I'm not there -- I guess that makes the vision
yours. At least, I HOPE that there is some one single person in charge
there who has a vision of where all this is going -- if there is no one at
the wheel or, worse, if the boat is being steered by committee, then I
hold little hope for a future with any meaningful direction.
>I'm all for creator's rights, but I also know that there are certain
>trade-offs when you give up your independence for a steady paycheck.
(TRH) Very true. I am a living testiment to that fact.
>> And--my worst fear of all--I fear that the success of long, drawn out
>> shared worlds and multimedia properties dilutes the work of
>> traditional fiction.
>
>I have the same fear. You know how I combat it? I don't buy many
>merchandizing novels. Frankly, I didn't read a DRAGONLANCE novel until
TSR
>hired me to work on the DRAGONLANCE line. I know the game material
>backwards and forwards and it stands in my mind as TSR's greatest
>gameworld, but I'd always stayed away from the novels because I'd rather
>spend my money supporting fiction that doesn't originate with a
>merchandizing effort.
(TRH) Do I whiff a little snobbery in this discussion? :-)} While I, too,
turn up my own nose at such blatant efforts as Powerrangers (a truly
frightening concept which has no redeaming value whatever), I think
that to dump anything with a 'merchandizing effort' into the trash is
a bit hasty. Dragonlance was sold to the company as a merchandizing
effort (I know, because I'm the guy who did it) but that was just a means
by which the creatives upstairs could acquire the backing to make the
creation they loved come to life.
I, too, believe there are too many Star Trek books on the market. I also
believe there are too many Dragonlance(r) books on the market. These
massive series suck up shelf space and drive mid-list authors who need
a break and a good read off the shelf. However, just because a book is
in a marketed line doesn't mean that the author hasn't poured body,
blood and soul into the story -- or that their tales aren't as viable on
their
own as anyone elses.
>Now, that's not to say that I've not enjoyed reading the DRAGONLANCE
>novels. Most of them are quite good, although I must admit that my love
>for the world would not have been as strong as it is if I'd encountered
>the novels first. (In my not-so-humble opinion, most authors mishandle
>and/or shortchange the characters from the potential their character
>sketches in the game material hints at.)
>
>> IMO, DragonLance and such lines have ended up replacing Tolkien as
>> the Fantasy Primer for people. Will success of these lines--corporate
>> owned, writers secondary at times--convince publishers to support
>> these over others. The jury is out, and only time will tell.
>
>Well, you can't blame publishers for giving people what they want. (Well,
>I suppose you *can*, but then you have to blame them for wanting to stay
>in business.)
>
>But, you are correct. Only time will tell. I do like to think that the
>pendulum will eventually swing away from all the merchandizing tie-ins. I
>mean, even TSR, the King of Tie-In Fantasy novels, keeps flirting with
>novels that aren't tie-ins. (Like most of what comes out under the TSR
>Books imprint.)
(TRH) Again, creatives often USE merchandizing tie-ins to bring their
ideas to fruition. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
There are good writers with good ideas in these series whose efforts
are just as viable as anyone elses.
The basic question comes down, it seems to me, to the same one
often heard about whether fantasy books are 'true' literature or not.
For me, ANY story into which the author goes through the pains and
trouble to breath life into its characters and plot, with the best that is
in him or her, must be though of as viable -- whether linked to a
marketing effort or not.
Sorry, Steve. :-)
Tracy Hickman
TRHickman
TSR Steve
Now, where was I... oh, yeah...
Tracy Hickman wrote:
> Again, creatives often USE merchandizing tie-ins to bring their ideas
> to fruition. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
> There are good writers with good ideas in these series whose efforts
> are just as viable as anyone elses.
Agreed one hundred percent. The trick is marrying a good author with a
property that he or she can do *well*. When I was younger (and even with
one or two series books that I've picked up recently), I encountered
entirely too many authors who, for whatever reason, seemed to put their
ideas ahead of the setting's integrity and internal consistency. IMO, when
writing fiction that ties in with a mark or an established setting, the
author (and, of course, the author's editor) needs to pay close attention
to what has been said and what has been written about the world already.
> The basic question comes down, it seems to me, to the same one often
> heard about whether fantasy books are 'true' literature or not. For
> me, ANY story into which the author goes through the pains and
> trouble to breath life into its characters and plot, with the best
> that is in him or her, must be though of as viable -- whether linked
> to a marketing effort or not. Sorry, Steve. :-)
No need to be sorry. :) We actually agree.
Just because I don't read much tie-in books doesn't mean I don't respect
the folks who write them. After all, they've managed to do something I've
never done... get fiction into a wide market.
In fact, no disrespect or put-down toward anyone was intended with my
previous post. I was more or less just agreeing with the other poster,
while thinking in the background about how in the world his proposal about
the "creators" taking control of DRAGONLANCE would be at all possible
without the line collapsing in on itself.
_Colleen Calderwood
On 28 Jul 1996, TSR Steve wrote:
> > You lost me on this one - do I sense dissention in the TSR ranks?
>
> Not really. The PLANESCAPE line is the one with the "attitude," if you
> take a look at the products. The designers and editors on the line take
> alot of kidding for it.
>
> And, as you should be aware--particularly on Usenet--it's hip to hate
> things, but not so hip to like 'em. :)
>
> In other words, it was another of my attempts at humour that fell flat.
>
> Steve Miller
> TSRS...@aol.com
> TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
>
> PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
>
>
Humor that "fell flat," or readers that just take things WAY to seriously?
Rhiannon
TSR Steve
Tracy Hickman wrote:
> Oh, Steve, be careful: I think you just stepped into a minefield ...
No sweat, I'm used to it. :)
> Huh? Aside from not having used a typewriter since 1981, I take no
> issue with the fact that Dragonlance was a team effort.
I was speaking metaphorically, and exgarating (sp... must be getting a
tumour or something). And you've got to admit that when it comes to
DRAGONLANCE, you and Margerate are the only creators that many fans see.
You *did* come up with much of the basic DL stuff, as far as my
understanding of the process goes, hence you were the one I tossed in
there.
> Cooperation among the team members was never an issue -- it was the
> relationship between the team and management that always was the
> problem. Further, I must point out the rather un-PC truth that even
> the most cooperative team must have a leader to function and succeed.
That leader must have a central
> vision against which all the other work is coordinated.
Agreed. I don't think anyone else would say otherwise. And, frankly, some
of the RPG adventures and books we saw come out around 1991-1993 shows
that DL was suffering from a serious lack of direction.
> When I was there, that vision was mine. Now I'm not there -- I guess
> that makes the vision yours. At least, I HOPE that there is some one
> single person in charge there who has a vision of where all this is
> going -- if there is no one at the wheel or, worse, if the > boat is
being steered by committee, then
> I hold little hope for a future with any meaningful direction.
No, there is most certainly someone in the driver's seat. The group has
input, but the "yes" and "no's" basically issue forth from one individual.
> Do I whiff a little snobbery in this discussion? :-)
Not really, although I will admit that it did sound like there was a bit
of it. (Actually, I believe it's harder to write a good shared world novel
when it comes right down to it... and the authors who write [by my
definitions] good shared world novels are few and far between. It's in
part because I long since came to the conclusion you outline below, and
because when I *did* read "trademark fiction," I was so bothered by the
internal inconsistencies that I decided spending my cash on novels written
by a writer who truly knows the world for which they are writing was the
way to go.
As far as why I never read DL novels... well, it's partially just because
I suspect that what happened when I finally did would be exactly what
*did* happen: Most of them dissapointed me, because they did not match my
visions of the characters, nor did they take the characters in unusual
enough directions to "wow" me.
Again, this does not necessarily say they are bad books.
> While I, too, turn up my own nose at such blatant efforts as
> Powerrangers (a truly frightening concept which has no redeaming
> value whatever), I think that to dump anything with a 'merchandizing
> effort' into the trash is a bit hasty. Dragonlance was sold to the
> company as a merchandizing effort (I know, because I'm the guy who
> did it) but that was just a means by which the creatives upstairs
> could acquire the backing to make the creation they loved come to
> life.
As I understood John's point, he was saying "real fiction" [in quotes
because I admit that when it comes right down to it, I actually do think
it is unfair to hold one type of novel above another] is being crowded off
the shelves by brandname tie-ins. I was not saying that they should be
tossed in the trash--that would be like taking a match to my paycheck! I
was just agreeing with what I interperted his point to be.
> I, too, believe there are too many Star Trek books on the market. I
> also believe there are too many Dragonlance(r) books on the market.
> These massive series suck up shelf space and drive mid-list authors
> who need a break and a good read off the shelf.
Yup.
[Continued in next post... outta room here]
Kevin Stan
Well,
Aren't we mister speci special? I'm glad to know that you take
your time with reading, and your better than all us quick readers...but,
thanks..at least now I have a good idea of who you are...
.
.
....eclipse...would that be what happens when your ego enters the room
where all our ego's are hanging around? Just curious.
eclipse
>>>When I first read the Chronicles, I looked at Tanis as Tanzis, Kitiara as
>>>Kitara, and Raistlin as Rozalyn. Weird huh?
>>lada...@nbnet.nb.ca (Ravnos) wrote:
>>About the only name I was sure about was Flint. I once saw someone use
>>Raistlin as a nickname and thought he misspelled it because it was missing
>>a second "a". Tolkein's books were even worse. Gandalf was Gandalaf, and I
>>don't even want to talk about Lothlorien.
I think a lot of this has to do with reading speeds. People who read the
books at a fast speed and skim the pages often take in only the general
meaning, and tend to be the ones to mis-pronounce character and place
names.
I am a relatively slow reader and have no problems with name
pronunciations, especially in DL where the names are fairly
straight-forward.
eclipse.
--
"Beautiful souls, be happy, be one.
Behold, your heaven has now begun."
TSR Steve
> I assume I am that poster.. and I have already explained my naivity
> when =
>
> glancing (not reading the faq).... And the place I gained said info
> from =
>
> was a friend of mine who wrote one of the Rolemaster books who told
> me =
>
> that TSR had tried to TM Nazi.,...
No need to feel foolish... usually people claim that they've seen
"NAZI(tm) by TSR, 1984 with their own eyes. That *that's* foolish. :)
Feydrrin
In article <4tr82a$i...@babylon.internetfci.com>, ecl...@thenet.co.uk
(eclipse) writes:
>I am a relatively slow reader and have no problems with name
>pronunciations, especially in DL where the names are fairly
>straight-forward.
>
>
Well, I have to disagree with you here. I am also a slow reader and DL
names are anything but straight forward. Just look at the elven names.
It's lucky for me they shorten it. But I do this anyway when I'm reading
along.
:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=: "Is that the stars in the sky or is it
rain fallin' down?
=:=: Feyd'rrinllom'tinomyrr :=:== Will it burn me if I touch the sun, so
big, so round?"
:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:
---J.H. live Radio One
Krynnian Red of the Southern Hills
of New England, Valley of the Long River
Jamie1km
>I am a relatively slow reader and have no problems with name
>pronunciations, especially in DL where the names are fairly
>straight-forward.
>
Yeah, names like Kitiara, Xak Tsaroth, etc. are pretty straight-forward...
NOT!! Especially when I was eleven, which was my age originally reading
the Chronicles.
** Jamie
Danny Fuerstman
Me and the people I play with all pronounce things differently, but the
one that got me was Sturm. I read Meetings Sextet, Preludes, and
Chronicles as Strum. You know what? Whenever I read the name now, I just
say Strum, it doesn't really matter.
- Nygel Morlock AME...@prodigy.com
John Erik Andersen
Jamie1km <jami...@aol.com> wrote:
Kitiara is NOT a difficult name!
--
John Erik Andersen
Engeshaugen 22
N-8616 BÅSMOEN
Norway
eclipse
>jami...@aol.com (Jamie1km) wrote:
>Yeah, names like Kitiara, Xak Tsaroth, etc. are pretty straight-forward...
>NOT!! Especially when I was eleven, which was my age originally reading
>the Chronicles.
Xak Tsaroth I can almost understand, but Kitiara?? Surely you jest.
I can't really see too much ambiguity about the pronunciation there, and I
couldn't when I first read the Chronicles (about the age of eleven also :)
eclipse
John R. Troy
Tracy and Steve,
Regarding my thoughts on DragonLance, shared worlds, etc...
I am in agreement with Steve's responses in many areas. I don't have
anything against a brand name or a shared world "per se". And I
definitely don't wish to imply that people who write for "lines" are
either bad writers or hacking.
The problem is, IMO, if lines become more successful than individual
works, I think it creates a more or less homogenized genre, one that
can actually hurt the genre as a whole.
Regarding Creative Control--I don't think DragonLance fits what I was
thinking about. I knew the creation of that world was a true group
effort. I was thinking more or less along the lines of the other
campaigns at TSR--Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms to be specific.
One specific example where I think being able to separate the campaign
from the game system would help prevent problems. Ed Greenwood once
stated in a magazine article that "TSR's realm's weren't his",
emphasizing that he disliked some of the directions they took it in,
specifically the Horde and Maztica settings. Noting that both
projects didn't have much of a life, why even do them? If it doesn't
fit the project, why have it done. If (for instance), you want to
give Doug Niles a setting, let him write it rather than tack it on to
a place where it doesn't really fit.
If the deal was setup where Greenwood had final say, then such
ill-fitting additions would not see print! It seems that some of the
FR projects are based on what a marketing department wants (we need a
shakeup), that what best fits the project and the creative vision.
Doesn't the man who had developed the milieu over nearly 2 decades now
know it well enough!
TSR could license worlds from creators, rather than purchase them
outright. If they can do it for properties like MSH and Buck Rogers,
then can do it for a creator. I personally think it's an option they
need to consider.
Tracy is right when it comes to needing one person, rather than a
committee. However, for me, the problem is what happens if that
person keeps changing? I don't think for creative projects that such
a position should be "elected", but rather a "monarchy". When you add
different people to the mix, they bring their own perspective, which
can be radically different. (I've seen this take hold way too much in
the comics industry.) What's even worse is sometimes it can fall in
the hands of people who don't understand or have interest in the line.
If I remember correctly, in 1994 TSR decided to "improve morale" and
shuffled the heads of project lines! Imagine working on a line you
love only to then work on something you know nothing about. That
stuff is what I fear.
Also--when it comes to lines, it becomes more of a business-like
mentality. Sometimes, things don't fit the lines. If you are going
to have a shared world, you need a continuity and a purpose for making
the works. I noticed in another thread that Margaret is working on
another DragonLance novel. She's asking fans to help her in
continuity featuring Raistlin--but she's avoiding anything that wasn't
written by herself or a few others...
...so, if this is the case, why have other books done? Did the
Preludes to the Companions (or whatever it was called) count in the
history? If so, why let a writer ignore continuity--shouldn't he or
she obey the rules and observe what others have written? Those are
the kinds of things that bother me.
If not, why allow those books to be published in the first place? If
you accept H&W over the others--let them have veto power over the
novels featuring their characters, or don't publish works that won't
count. That's what bothers me about lines like Star Trek--corporate
treats them as licensed works, and doesn't allow them to affect true
continuity. That kind of mentality makes me look upon them with
scorn. (In fact, the stories could be great--it's the overall
treatment by the commercial owners that concerns me). That kind of
treatment in continuity doesn't belong in a shared world. Otherwise,
what's the point.
I don't want to be considered an elitist, but these things bug me.
When it seems like something is done solely for commercial
exploitation--by the owner of the property, not necessarily the
subordinate who writes or executes it--it gives me a cold chill.
Hopefully, this won't become the norm.
Lasse Högman
Feydrrin wrote:
- beginning snipped -
> Well, I have to disagree with you here. I am also a slow reader and DL
> names are anything but straight forward. Just look at the elven names.
> It's lucky for me they shorten it. But I do this anyway when I'm
reading
> along.
>
I had the same problem in the beginning, but solved it by writing the
names down myself as I came by them.
Refsay, Gnome Reciter and Scribbler
Jason Mulligan
In article <4tomre$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, TSR Steve writes:
> property that he or she can do *well*. When I was younger (and even with
> one or two series books that I've picked up recently), I encountered
> entirely too many authors who, for whatever reason, seemed to put their
> ideas ahead of the setting's integrity and internal consistency. IMO, when
Hmmm...sounds like what has happened with Bantam's line of Star Wars novels
IMO. But trek is certainly the worst offender that I have seen.
-
Jason Mulligan
E-Mail to: ma...@valinor.hna.com.au
ou...@net-unix.newcastle.edu.au
"If you want my advice, make for Rivendell. That journey should not prove
too perilous, though the Road is less easy than it was, and it will grow
worse as the year fails."
-- Gandalf, "Three is Company"
proct_...@hg.uleth.ca
Strum is what you do to a guitar.
Sturm is a knight.
If you can honestly call him Strum and no die laughing well more power to you.
** Edward J. Pollard **************************** proct_...@hg.uleth.ca **
* Macintosh Student Computer Labs Proctor, University of Lethbridge *
* The Help Desk is always open, feel free to drop a line. *
********************* http://www.uleth.ca/~proct_pollar *********************
John R. Troy
Morten Brattbakk
John R. Troy wrote:
> If not, why allow those books to be published in the first place? If
> you accept H&W over the others--let them have veto power over the
> novels featuring their characters, or don't publish works that won't
> count. That's what bothers me about lines like Star Trek--corporate
> treats them as licensed works, and doesn't allow them to affect true
> continuity. That kind of mentality makes me look upon them with
> scorn. (In fact, the stories could be great--it's the overall
> treatment by the commercial owners that concerns me). That kind of
> treatment in continuity doesn't belong in a shared world. Otherwise,
> what's the point.
>
> I don't want to be considered an elitist, but these things bug me.
> When it seems like something is done solely for commercial
> exploitation--by the owner of the property, not necessarily the
> subordinate who writes or executes it--it gives me a cold chill.
> Hopefully, this won't become the norm.
>
> ------------------------------
> John R. Troy
> john...@tiac.net
I haven't followed Steve's and Tracy's discussion, but I have posted
articles about this subject before. More non-W&H novels contradict the
Chronicles and Legends than not. I don't want to pick up that discussion
again, I just want to say that in a way I'm glad DL isn't owned by the
authors, becuse then we would have seen very few DL products. Perhaps
there would've been only the Chronicles and Legends plus a few other
books if it were so. It is still very possible to enjoy the books even
though they contradict each other. For example, if Tracy had decided,
Time of the Dragon, the Taladas box, would probably never had been
published, (he has posted here many times about how he dislikes the
setting) and that would be a shame, because that box detailed a very
interesting continent. (The reason it failed, IMO, is that the setting
was mistreated by TSR, only trashy modules followed, and no novels were
written about Taladas.)
I read one post by Steve, where he said authors who return to a popular
world they've created/written about often fails because they haven't
taken in account what other authors have written about the world. This is
not true about DoSF. (To make things clear, I'm not sure Steve was
talking about DoSF, but maybe he was.) First, many of the books
contradict W&Hs original novels. Should they really take those novels
into account? Second, I can't recall a single non-W&H novel or short
story set after the War of the Lance, so the world had not moved forward
at all until DoSF. DoSF does, however, feel like a bad Hollywood sequel
featuring stackage from the original movie. (I don't think DoSF is that
bad, but it's not good either.) The unnecessary return of Raistlin, Sturm
Tanis and Flint returning from the dead to have some conversations with
the living ... Well it didn't fit with the world and the story at all. A
can't think of any other reason thay were granted this favor than that
they are so popular characters they had to make a guest appearance in a
sequel.
Where was I? Yes, continuity. As I've said, it is still possible to enjoy
the books if they contradict each other. BUT, the DL editors at TSR
should do better jobs. It sure is possible to overlook little mistakes
like the one in Douglas Niles's "The Kagonesti", where a griffon is
encountered long before the Greygem, whose magic turned animals into
magical creatures, including griffons, came to Krynn. (The same error
occured in Nile's short story "Aurora's Eggs" in The Dragons at War.) But
bigger, more obvious mistakes should have been done something about. The
most recent example which springs to mind is the quite good "Murder in
Tarsis." It is apparently set some time before the War of the Lance
(there are no clerics) but still there are dragon's on Ansalon. They are
not dismissed as children stories. An old healer even have a detailed
description about illnesses caused by a black dragon's breath. Still
everybody knows that there were no dragons on Ansalon before the War
broke out.
Well, that's all I have to say about continuity for now.
Morten
DJBellisle
Hello, Steve and other good folks at TSR. Just got back from GenCon today, and wanted
to drop a thanks for your seminar on what's going on in the Fifth Age of Dragonlance.
You really cleared up which direction things are going in, and have me rather pumped up
about diving in and seeing how events unravel. Also an additional tip of the hat to Sue
Cook for her demos outside castle TSR after the seminar (Dragonlance card game). I'm not
a card-game player myself, but I was glad to see that you're expanding Krynn into this
new area! Many bonus points to Sue...
By the way, sorry I busted your ass on the trivia question, but hey, you CHALLENGED me!
Actually, I should have asked mine later; I already have a hardcover copy of DoSF (and
MW's autograph); I should have held out for the paperback! Live and learn, I suppose...
Yours fictionally,
Darren/Dalamar/"The guy who asked about a dwarf named Darren Ironfist"
--
"Reading a good book is like sinking your
fingers up to the knuckle in someone's brain."
--"Self-Made Man" by Poppy Z. Brite
----------------------------------------------
ART IS NOT A MIRROR. ART IS A HAMMER.
Mearlus (Nick Vogel)
DJBellisle <djb...@terracom.net> wrote in article
<320D47...@terracom.net>...
I was glad to see that TSR was atleast explaining what happened, but i'm
not the least bit happy with it.. I liked the old way by far, and in my
opinion I think TSR did this JUST to make more money.. Grant it, it will
bring more life to the books, I suppose, but I would much like to see the
Gods back (It's not that hard to guess that they will be back) And from
the seminar the man who is a shadow or something... I would like to make a
guess at who that might be.. Either Mr. Fizban (or another alias) or
Raistlin Majere (Considering that he wasn't said to be dead) I would
really like to see Raist come back.. If you asked me, it sounds like the
took Krynn, chewed on it for awhile and then spit it back out saying "Now
that's a new twist, let's try it" I don't see why they didn't just make a
NEW world... sigh.. :) I guess i'm stuck with the old ways ;)
But it was a interesting, and informative semiar :)
--
Wildy, the Wild mage from Waterdeep
Mea...@globaldialog.com
Homepage:
http://www.watertown.k12.wi.us/students/vogel/index.htm
Kevin Grimes
Mearlus (Nick Vogel) wrote:
> And from
> the seminar the man who is a shadow or something... I would like to make a
> guess at who that might be.. Either Mr. Fizban (or another alias) or
> Raistlin Majere (Considering that he wasn't said to be dead) I would
> really like to see Raist come back..
What's the deal with this "person who is a shadow?"
NetCurl
DJBellisle wrote:
>
> Hello, Steve and other good folks at TSR. Just got back from GenCon today, and wanted
> to drop a thanks for your seminar on what's going on in the Fifth Age of Dragonlance.
> You really cleared up which direction things are going in, and have me rather pumped up
> about diving in and seeing how events unravel. Also an additional tip of the hat to Sue
> Cook for her demos outside castle TSR after the seminar (Dragonlance card game). I'm not
> a card-game player myself, but I was glad to see that you're expanding Krynn into this
> new area! Many bonus points to Sue...
>
> By the way, sorry I busted your ass on the trivia question, but hey, you CHALLENGED me!
> Actually, I should have asked mine later; I already have a hardcover copy of DoSF (and
> MW's autograph); I should have held out for the paperback! Live and learn, I suppose...
>
> Yours fictionally,
> Darren/Dalamar/"The guy who asked about a dwarf named Darren Ironfist"
For those of us unfortunate enough not to be able to make it to GenCon,
could you review what was gone over in the seminar?
John R. Troy
>again, I just want to say that in a way I'm glad DL isn't owned by the
>authors, becuse then we would have seen very few DL products. Perhaps
>there would've been only the Chronicles and Legends plus a few other
>books if it were so.
Ah, but isn't quality better than quantity, overall?
The ultimate rhetorical question.
proct_...@hg.uleth.ca
In article <320D47...@terracom.net>, DJBellisle <djb...@terracom.net> writes:
>Hello, Steve and other good folks at TSR. Just got back from GenCon today, and wanted
>to drop a thanks for your seminar on what's going on in the Fifth Age of Dragonlance.
>You really cleared up which direction things are going in, and have me rather pumped up
>about diving in and seeing how events unravel. Also an additional tip of the hat to Sue
>Cook for her demos outside castle TSR after the seminar (Dragonlance card game). I'm not
>a card-game player myself, but I was glad to see that you're expanding Krynn into this
>new area! Many bonus points to Sue...
>
>By the way, sorry I busted your ass on the trivia question, but hey, you CHALLENGED me!
>Actually, I should have asked mine later; I already have a hardcover copy of DoSF (and
>MW's autograph); I should have held out for the paperback! Live and learn, I suppose...
>
>Yours fictionally,
>Darren/Dalamar/"The guy who asked about a dwarf named Darren Ironfist"
>
> "Reading a good book is like sinking your
>fingers up to the knuckle in someone's brain."
> --"Self-Made Man" by Poppy Z. Brite
>----------------------------------------------
> ART IS NOT A MIRROR. ART IS A HAMMER.
Cool...I assume you mean a card game playable with the cards included with the
Fifth Age set. Good to see that back.
Back you say? Yes, back.
Remember those Talis cards? Newer folks will recall them as those stupid things
that pretty much got tossed from the Tales of the Lance set. Well I refer to
their initial inclusion in DL12 (is it 12....oh I forget!) It included some
cool card games to play with them, as well the cards were a tool to determine a
"fate" for the War of the Lance. Oh just get yer hands on the original modules
they are so cool...much better then the "classics" reprints.
TSR Steve
DJBellisle wrote:
> You really cleared up which direction things are going in, and have
> me rather pumped up about diving in and seeing how events unravel.
Hope you're along for the ride, both fiction and game-wise. Or are you
going to stay away from the new game material? (At least pick up *my*
supplement... it's the first really detailed look at Northern Ergoth
that's been published anywhere. :) )
> By the way, sorry I busted your ass on the trivia question, but hey,
> you CHALLENGED me! Actually, I should have asked mine later; I
> already have a hardcover copy of DoSF (and MW's autograph); I should
> have held out for the paperback! Live and learn, I suppose...
I think you just answered a mystery for all of us on the panel. We were
somewhat mystified that no one was going for Jean Rabe's novel until all
the hardbacks were gone. You at least seem to have been under the
impression that they weren't up for grabs initially. Our thinking was that
they were, so that there was a choice of prizes.
TSR Steve
Morten Brattbakk wrote:
> I read one post by Steve, where he said authors who return to a
> popular world they've created/written about often fails because they
> haven't taken in account what other authors have written about the
> world. This is not true about DoSF. (To make things clear, I'm not
> sure Steve was talking about DoSF, but maybe he was.)
I think I was speaking in general terms, but I don't recall anymore.
> First, many of the books contradict W&Hs original novels. Should they
> really take those novels into account?
That depends on how you define contradiction. To say, "Tanis is a woman"
is a contradiction. To say, "Kender came from elves" is not. Why? Because
we can't get our history straight for the last century or so, why do we
think the people of Krynn can get there's straight?
Nothing we have in print about DRAGONLANCE is without bias of this point
of view or another. I made the point in a seminar at GEN CON that in
researching the Empire of Ergoth it dawned on me that Astinus' history was
biased in favour of the Solamnic knights. (Vinus Solamnus comes along, and
Ergoth becomes, more or less, a historical irrelevancy.) There are no such
things as real "facts" in *any* of the published DRAGONLANCE material,
IMO.
That said, there are clearly some novels and short stories and miscilenia
that just plain don't fit. That will *always* happen when one attempts to
manage a shared world. It's unfortunate, but it's unavoidable.
> Second, I can't recall a single non-W&H novel or short story set
> after the War of the Lance, so the world had not moved forward at all
> until DoSF.
"Second Generation" is a collection of post-war stories by H&W.
> The most recent example which springs to mind is the quite good
> "Murder in Tarsis." It is apparently set some time before the War of
> the Lance (there are no clerics) but still there are dragon's on
> Ansalon. They are not dismissed as children stories. An old healer
> even have a detailed description about illnesses caused by a black
> dragon's breath.
Actually, "Murder in Tarsis" *is* set before the War of the Lance. Keep in
mind that just because the Heroes of the Lance didn't see a dragon until
351 AC didn't mean that others weren't aware of their existence. The evil
dragons came back in 287 AC, after all. Ansalon's a big place.)
TSR Steve
> I liked the old way by far, and in my opinion I think TSR did this
> JUST to make more money
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but what do you think
DRAGONLANCE was published for in the first place? To make more money for
TSR!
There are two TSRs. There's Corporate TSR, and it exists souly to make
money. That's what corporations do. Then there's the Creative TSR, which
consists of guys and gals like me, who are, admittedly *also* driven by
the urge to make money--I really like to eat and to have a roof over my
head--but we are primarily driven by the desire to make cool games and to
write stories that we hope others will find interesting. If we were just
in it for money, we certainly wouldn't be working as game designers!
DRAGONLANCE: FIFTH AGE is primarily a product of Creative TSR. Management
gave us the chance to bring back DL as a gameworld in whatever format we
wanted, just as long as it wasn't AD&D. So we took the opportunity to
design what I think is a fairly innovative system. (SAGA was picked out of
four different proposals that were made by the DL Design Team, which
ranged from my fairly conservative AD&D variant through William W.
Connors' innovative idea for a card-based game.) The new DL game is the
product of TSR's DRAGONLANCE lovers first, and TSR Management second.
> If you asked me, it sounds like the took Krynn, chewed on it for
> awhile and then spit it back out saying "Now that's a new twist,
> let's try it" I don't see why they didn't just make a NEW world...
> sigh.. :) I guess i'm stuck with the old ways ;)
You're echoing here the reaction I had when I read "Dragons of Summer
Flame" the first time. FIFTH AGE picks up the pieces of a shattered world,
and allows the characters who live there to carry on. (And "Summer Flame"
originated with people *outside* TSR, BTW.)
And the Old Krynn and New Krynn aren't mutually exclusive. Both of the
sourcebooks I'll have coming out in 1997 are deeply rooted in the past.
TSR Steve
John R. Troy wrote:
> I noticed in another thread that Margaret is working on another
> DragonLance novel. She's asking fans to help her in continuity
> featuring Raistlin--but she's avoiding anything that wasn't written
> by herself or a few others...
>
> ...so, if this is the case, why have other books done? Did the
> Preludes to the Companions (or whatever it was called) count in the
> history? If so, why let a writer ignore continuity--shouldn't he or
> she obey the rules and observe what others have written? Those are
> the kinds of things that bother me.
If it were up to me, yes. Any author working in a shared world setting
should take into account what has gone before. It just so happens that
(and I'm sure novelists across the world are grateful for this) it *isn't*
up to me.
That said, I will add that any shared world setting will have sour notes
and things don't quite fit. Hickman & Weis have produced their share of
sour notes in DRAGONLANCE, just as game designers and other authors have.
There are entire novels that are internally consistant but don't fit with
overall DRAGONLANCE mythology... like "Darkness and Light" and "The
Companions," for example. Should these novels not have been published? I
won't go that far, as there are members of this newsgroup who have listed
"Darkness and Light" as their favourite DL novel. Should someone at TSR
Books excersised a bit more control? In my opinion, yes. But if that had
been the kind of limiting viewpoint taken of DRAGONLANCE, "Dragons of
Summer Flame" might never have been published.
> If not, why allow those books to be published in the first place? If
> you accept H&W over the others--let them have veto power over the
> novels featuring their characters, or don't publish works that won't
> count.
I can't speak for Weis, TSR Books, or anyone else, but the DL Design Team
in games makes every effort to make as much of the DL literature valid
when we work on the gameworld. And I completely dismiss the notion that
only Hickman & Weis write what's true about DL... and in doing so am
probably killing any chance I might ever have of doing any DL fiction. ;)
[snip]
> I don't want to be considered an elitist, but these things bug me.
> When it seems like something is done solely for commercial
> exploitation--by the owner of the property, not necessarily the
> subordinate who writes or executes it--it gives me a cold chill.
> Hopefully, this won't become the norm.
And in this, you and I are in complete agreement.
DJBellisle
TSR Steve wrote:
> Hope you're along for the ride, both fiction and game-wise. Or are you
> going to stay away from the new game material?
Actually, I haven't played Dragonlance in approximately 12 years or so. My regular
gaming group gave it a shot for a while, but I think we caved halfway through the
second module (not the storyline's fault; we just preferred having a different guy as
DM). However, I did get the honor of playing Raistlin, and his personality and
character got me hooked on Dragonlance big time.
(At least pick up *my*
> supplement... it's the first really detailed look at Northern Ergoth
> that's been published anywhere. :) )
Gee, can you say "Ruthlessly plugging merchandise?" Understandable, though. Actually,
the product that's got me foaming at the mouth is the rumored novel about Raistlin that
may be coming out; I recall MW posting a note for an assist on it, collecting stories
and info about everyone's favorite gold-skinned mage. I want to try and help out, but
my job (proofreader/inspector at a book & journal service) doesn't give me a lot of
spare time. Now if TSR were to hire me away from them...(gee, can you say "pathetically
whining for employment?)
> I think you just answered a mystery for all of us on the panel. We were
> somewhat mystified that no one was going for Jean Rabe's novel until all
> the hardbacks were gone. You at least seem to have been under the
> impression that they weren't up for grabs initially.
They weren't; the only books you had up on the stand when the contest began was DoSF.
No complaining, though, as it's always nice to have MW's autograph on something.
DoaNA was still a worthy investment! I'm debating with myself about getting the "Murder
in Tarsis" Dragonlance mystery, however. I'm not a huge mystery fan; I always get
the feeling that if you read one, and you fail to figure out "whodunnit" by the end
of the book, then you've basically "failed" to read the book properly. Maybe if it
comes out as a paperback sometime...
Gotta run, a squadron of gnomes are taking apart my microwave oven (or as they call it,
A Multi-Purpose Portable Food Heater, Hair Dryer, and Paperweight).
> PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"PHILOSOPHY, n. (1) The talk on a cereal box. (2) A walk on a slippery rock.
--Edie B. (okay, so it's not as deep as yours. What can you expect;
she married Paul Simon for crying out loud!)
Naltia
In article <4uq5fd$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR
Steve) writes:
>There are two TSRs. There's Corporate TSR, and it exists souly to make
>money. That's what corporations do. Then there's the Creative TSR, which
>consists of guys and gals like me, who are, admittedly *also* driven by
>the urge to make money--I really like to eat and to have a roof over my
>head--but we are primarily driven by the desire to make cool games and to
>write stories that we hope others will find interesting. If we were just
>in it for money, we certainly wouldn't be working as game designers!
>
>
Well said, Steve. People on this newsgroup seem to have a tendancy to
hate TSR because it is trying to make money. I mean, heck, you NEED money
to SURVIVE! Why attack a company for trying to survive?!
I'm one of the few people who agree's with TSR for what they are doing on
the net. I didn't use to, but then I thought about it. Why is TSR's
lawyer going around telling people to remove TSR Copyright's from their
computer?
The answer is simple, they don't want to lose money. If you put the
entire Players Handbook on your web sight, then nobody is going to buy it
from TSR. They won't buy ANYTHING from TSR if they can get it for free
off the net.
So lay off TSR Steve and the Company, will ya? They are just trying to
make a living like anybody else. Remember, if it weren't for TSR,
Dragonlance would still be stories Tracy Hickman told to his children. If
it weren't for TSR, this newsgroup would not exist; there would be no
books, no games, no companions, nothing!
So show them a little respect. You would not be posting about how much
you love Dragonlance if it weren't for TSR!
Kelp Tumbleweed
The Kender with Multiple Personality Syndrome
Adriene Gilbert
tsrs...@aol.com (TSR Steve) wrote:
(snipped)
>
>That depends on how you define contradiction. To say, "Tanis is a woman"
>is a contradiction. To say, "Kender came from elves" is not. Why? Because
>we can't get our history straight for the last century or so, why do we
>think the people of Krynn can get there's straight?
I haven't posted in this thread yet, but I have one word to say about the
last sentance:
Astinius
>
>
>Steve Miller
>TSRS...@aol.com
>TSR Ravenloft & Dragonlance Design Teams
>
>PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
> --Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Adrienne Gilbert
Tia'RaHu
In article <320E26...@worldnet.att.net>, Kevin Grimes
<sem...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
There's a mysterious magic-user running around called the Shadow Mage.
He and the equally mysterious Master of Wayreth Tower (the Tower in
Palanthas was destroyed by person/s unknown one night) helped Palin
Majere figure out the new rules of magic, and as soon as they did Palin
immediately wanted to pound his head against the wall because it was
really simple, but he and all the other mages hadn't been able to figure
it out for years and years. Since Dalamar is missing in action and Raistlin
_may_ still be running around, those two are the top candidates for the
secret identities of the Shadow Mage and/or the Master of the Tower.
Anyway, Palin's son is a wizard and his daughter is a Solamnic knight in
the espionage (yes, espionage) department. And the Silvanesti elves have
managed to lock themselves in Silvanost _with_ Cyan Bloodbane under an
impenetrable magic shield while the rest of Ansalon goes to hell in a
terra-forming dragon's handbasket. Oh yeah - Riverwind and one of his
daughters died in the defense of Kendermore, and the surviving Kender
have become very paranoid and taken over Hylo, the only kender land left.
There's lots of cool stuff going on.
Tia'RaHu
##################tia...@worf.netins.net##################
"I like and respect Drizzt Do'Urden. That's why he's still alive."
Elminster of Shadowdale (GenCon '94)
"If you don't write it down it didn't happen."
Jack Ryan (_Debt of Honor_)
Jamie1km
In article <4u7u47$a...@babylon.internetfci.com>, ecl...@thenet.co.uk
(eclipse) writes:
>Xak Tsaroth I can almost understand, but Kitiara?? Surely you jest.
>I can't really see too much ambiguity about the pronunciation there, and
I
>couldn't when I first read the Chronicles (about the age of eleven also
:)
>
>eclipse
You have to understand that my character pronunciations came first
from my father -- who was playing the original DL modules. After hearing
his versions of the character names, I naturally adapted to them.
** Jamie
Svich
> There's a mysterious magic-user running around called the Shadow Mage.
> He and the equally mysterious Master of Wayreth Tower (the Tower in
Elminster of
Shadowdale (GenCon '94)
> "If you don't write it down it didn't happen."
> Jack Ryan (_Debt of Honor_)
grrrrrrrr... anybody ever heard of a possible spoiler.....
so far I know WAY too much about 5th gen, and I haven't read the book...
PLEASE for the sake of me and the others who haven't seen anything of
it yet... add <possible spoiler> to the topic..
Svich
st...@ii.uib.no
On 13 Aug 1996, Naltia wrote:
> >There are two TSRs. There's Corporate TSR, and it exists souly to make
> >money. That's what corporations do. Then there's the Creative TSR, which
> >consists of guys and gals like me, who are, admittedly *also* driven by
> >the urge to make money--I really like to eat and to have a roof over my
> >head--but we are primarily driven by the desire to make cool games and to
> >write stories that we hope others will find interesting. If we were just
> >in it for money, we certainly wouldn't be working as game designers!
>
> Well said, Steve. People on this newsgroup seem to have a tendancy to
> hate TSR because it is trying to make money. I mean, heck, you NEED money
> to SURVIVE! Why attack a company for trying to survive?!
You seem to miss the point again. What we have said time and time again
in this newsgroup, is that _we_ as potential buyers want _quality_ for
our money. What has been criticised is that TSR has sometimes seemed
to stray too far off from the fine line between quality and quantity.
I for one has had to develop and document larger parts of the Krynn
myself because 1) The existing material was not good enough 2) The
material needed was non-existing. (The material I have written is
either available on Web (in english) or in tournament modules (50
pages++) in norwegian.)
We as customers are allowed to demand and criticise the company, and
by all means we should. Without the feedback TSR gets from it's customers,
they would not have been able to make the quality they do have on some
stuff.
> I'm one of the few people who agree's with TSR for what they are doing on
> the net. I didn't use to, but then I thought about it. Why is TSR's
> lawyer going around telling people to remove TSR Copyright's from their
> computer?
I have commented this in an earlier article and refer to that one.
> The answer is simple, they don't want to lose money. If you put the
> entire Players Handbook on your web sight, then nobody is going to buy it
> from TSR. They won't buy ANYTHING from TSR if they can get it for free
> off the net.
Duplicating is not ok, but to be chewed because you create add-ons,
modules, information (not in the books) and stuff is ridiculous. If
you read TSR's Rules for all 50 Million people on the Net carefully
you'll see that they are both beyond the limit of the law AND beyond
common sense. Look at SJG, Whitewolf and others for a good policy.
And it works for them..
> So lay off TSR Steve and the Company, will ya? They are just trying to
I have nothing against Steve (by all means :) but I as a customer
has the right to criticise TSR.
> So show them a little respect. You would not be posting about how much
> you love Dragonlance if it weren't for TSR!
Recall that Nirvana has gotten it's own church. When are you going to
start one for TSR?
-Stig
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stig Erik Sandoe Institute of Informatics, University of Bergen
st...@ii.uib.no Studies: Java, CGI, SGML, System engineering
http://www.ii.uib.no/~stig/ (ENTP, Awful Good, Just Weird)
------------------------------------------------------------------
TSR Steve
Adrienne Gilbert wrote:
> I haven't posted in this thread yet, but I have one word to say about
> the last sentance:
>
> Astinius
Which makes absolutely no difference.
I quote from DL5: "Astinus of Palanthus, the renowned historian, spent
many years collecting legends and stories concerning the early history of
the world of Krynn, from which he created his famous scroll, The
Iconochronos."
Plus, Astinus' history has a very clear bias toward Solamnia, as is
obvious if you consider the way the Ergothian Empire seems to cease to
exist with the Rose Rebellion.
There are no "facts" that we can rely upon to say, "This is truth," IMO.
Weldon B. Chen
In article <4urh1a$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Naltia <nal...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <4uq5fd$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tsrs...@aol.com (TSR
>Steve) writes:
>
>>money. That's what corporations do. Then there's the Creative TSR, which
>>consists of guys and gals like me, who are, admittedly *also* driven by
>>the urge to make money--I really like to eat and to have a roof over my
>>head--but we are primarily driven by the desire to make cool games and to
>>write stories that we hope others will find interesting. If we were just
>>in it for money, we certainly wouldn't be working as game designers!
>>
>Well said, Steve. People on this newsgroup seem to have a tendancy to
>hate TSR because it is trying to make money. I mean, heck, you NEED money
>to SURVIVE! Why attack a company for trying to survive?!
Part of the controversy was not all about company survival. it was also
about TSR trying to stomp down on the rights of players who come up with
their own "ad&d" rules for their games and sharing ideas with other people
on the net.
>I'm one of the few people who agree's with TSR for what they are doing on
>the net. I didn't use to, but then I thought about it. Why is TSR's
>lawyer going around telling people to remove TSR Copyright's from their
>computer?
>
>The answer is simple, they don't want to lose money. If you put the
>entire Players Handbook on your web sight, then nobody is going to buy it
>from TSR. They won't buy ANYTHING from TSR if they can get it for free
>off the net.
>
One of the grey areas were the net books. A lot of them were not simple
ripoffs of the player's handbooks. a lot of them were player's guides and
rules that TSR won't even try to touch because it isn't profitable.
I even wrote up a Players' guide to Draconians, even placed it in the
official site, but it was killed for no apparent reason. And by TSR rules
I can't place it anywhere else. :-(
A lot of material fits in this grey zone. Fan-fiction, fan-AD&D-modules,
Midi music. and I'm sure anymore people can come up with better examples.
Another example? Tracy Hickman's unofficial DL module. Unless the
module was in the official TSR site and ONLY in the site, TH shouldn't have
the right to put the thing on his homepage. Then we as DL fans lose out.
It's this kind of material that caused a lot of uproar. Anything
that was remotely like AD&D, used AD&D mechanics, etc. etc. etc was
subject to erasure unless TSR authorized it by having it in and only in
TSR's official FTP site. AND that was a major problem.
In my opinion, the problems between TSR and internet players have
improved, but many people on the net are stubborn and slow to forgive.
The TSR vs Internet thing happened a long time ago and things are
improving, but old bitterness tends to stay.
-Granak Red-Silver
-Renegade Sivak
>Kelp Tumbleweed
>The Kender with Multiple Personality Syndrome
--
wel...@anime.berkeley.edu
PROJECT STARSHIP (Bringing you the best in Starships),
Granak Red-Silver (of the Alt.Fan.Dragonlance newsgroup),
Cal-Animage, (Where the Anime beats Cartoons any day),
TSR Steve
I've no interest in turning this thread or this newsgroup into a
bash-fest, but either Stig didn't see the beginning of this topic, or his
soapboxing out of topic... so, here goes a reply...
Stig wrote:
> You seem to miss the point again. What we have said time and time
> again in this newsgroup, is that _we_ as potential buyers want
> _quality_ for our money.
The person to which I made my reply (you?) mentioned nothing about
quality. In fact, whether or not the FIFTH AGE game is quality seemed to
be irrelevant to him/her/it. It appeared to me to be yet another baffling
critique of TSR for wanting to make money. Hence, my reply. (You will note
that I have more than once admitted that TSR has put out some products
that didn't measure up to other releases. But they are *not* the norm.)
> What has been criticised is that TSR has sometimes seemed to stray
> too far off from the fine line between quality and quantity.
*Not* in this thread, so far.
> I for one has had to develop and document larger parts of the Krynn
> myself because 1) The existing material was not good enough 2) The
> material needed was non-existing.
Which actually is not something TSR should be doing for you *anyway*. If
you're a DM expecting TSR to spoonfeed everything to you, then you should
probably be running FORGOTTEN REALMS campaigns. :)
> We as customers are allowed to demand and criticise the company, and
> by all means we should. Without the feedback TSR gets from it's
> customers, they would not have been able to make the quality they do
> have on some stuff.
To state, "TSR is only interested in making money (those bastards!)" is
not criticism or feedback. And it's an out-and-out falsehood [on one
level] when it comes to the FIFTH AGE game. There are all kinds of gambles
being taken with the SAGA system. But, you are right. Feedback is
valuable, because it lets us know what we've done right and what we've
done wrong.
[snip]
> If you read TSR's Rules for all 50 Million people on the Net
> carefully you'll see that they are both beyond the limit of the law
> AND beyond common sense. Look at SJG, Whitewolf and others for a good
> policy. And it works for them.
I disagree with the first sentence (see *countless* posts all across the
'net for details), and what other companies do is irrelevant.
> I have nothing against Steve (by all means :) but I as a customer has
> the right to criticise TSR.
The last part goes without saying.
> Recall that Nirvana has gotten it's own church. When are you going to
> start one for TSR?
I think you're being unfair toward Naltia here. I think maybe you need to
go back and look at the context of her and my remarks... and maybe you
need to take a look at TSR's current 'net policy while you're at it. (You
have seen the one that was released late last year, right?)
st...@ii.uib.no
On 15 Aug 1996, TSR Steve wrote:
> I've no interest in turning this thread or this newsgroup into a
> bash-fest, but either Stig didn't see the beginning of this topic, or his
> soapboxing out of topic... so, here goes a reply...
Probably did not, should do my homework more often :)
> > You seem to miss the point again. What we have said time and time
> > again in this newsgroup, is that _we_ as potential buyers want
> > _quality_ for our money.
>
> The person to which I made my reply (you?) mentioned nothing about
> quality. In fact, whether or not the FIFTH AGE game is quality seemed to
> be irrelevant to him/her/it. It appeared to me to be yet another baffling
> critique of TSR for wanting to make money. Hence, my reply. (You will note
> that I have more than once admitted that TSR has put out some products
> that didn't measure up to other releases. But they are *not* the norm.)
Probably jumped in all wrong ;) (but hey, I am here now) I am looking
forward to the fifth age stuff of the sole reason that I want to
look at the game system. I myself hope to use it (if it is good)
with my good ol' campaign in pre-kiddy-Dragonlance because I felt
that it lost lotsof it's charm with all the kids suddenly following
in their parents' footsteps. (my opinion of course) Hopefully
the fifth age will be nice and I look forward to it.
> > What has been criticised is that TSR has sometimes seemed to stray
> > too far off from the fine line between quality and quantity.
>
> *Not* in this thread, so far.
Sorry for barging in then. :)
> > I for one has had to develop and document larger parts of the Krynn
> > myself because 1) The existing material was not good enough 2) The
> > material needed was non-existing.
>
> Which actually is not something TSR should be doing for you *anyway*. If
> you're a DM expecting TSR to spoonfeed everything to you, then you should
> probably be running FORGOTTEN REALMS campaigns. :)
I sortof miss some more info about Krynn, more info on places and
countries. Not as much as in the FR world though, but at least five or
six pages about each country would help. To start from scratch all the
time is a bit tough. I have about 6 or 7 detailed cities and a few islands
detailed now (first and foremost Cristyne :) so if anyone is interested
they might have a copy.
> > We as customers are allowed to demand and criticise the company, and
> > by all means we should. Without the feedback TSR gets from it's
> > customers, they would not have been able to make the quality they do
> > have on some stuff.
>
> To state, "TSR is only interested in making money (those bastards!)" is
> not criticism or feedback. And it's an out-and-out falsehood [on one
> level] when it comes to the FIFTH AGE game. There are all kinds of gambles
I have not said that and excuse me again for barging in like a small
train into the discussion :) But TSR has made some mistakes in
their mass-producing esp. in FR which has gotten a few of us old
dinosaurs a bit less satisfied with TSR than we were five years ago.
> being taken with the SAGA system. But, you are right. Feedback is
> valuable, because it lets us know what we've done right and what we've
> done wrong.
Yup :) (you'll hear it when I have gotten the fifth age boxed set ;)
> go back and look at the context of her and my remarks... and maybe you
> need to take a look at TSR's current 'net policy while you're at it. (You
> have seen the one that was released late last year, right?)
Have seen it, but I am not overly enthusiastic about it I must admit.
It is a minefield allright, but we probably disagree on how to get
through it.
Nikki Ticklestone
For Paladine's sake, leave some spoiler-space. The first 5th age books
aren't even officially released yet and you are talking about the fifth
age as if anyone had read everything about it yesterday.
Nikki
Naltia
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.96081...@krake.ii.uib.no>,
<st...@ii.uib.no> writes:
>
>You seem to miss the point again. What we have said time and time again
>in this newsgroup, is that _we_ as potential buyers want _quality_ for
>our money. What has been criticised is that TSR has sometimes seemed
>to stray too far off from the fine line between quality and quantity.
>I for one has had to develop and document larger parts of the Krynn
>myself because 1) The existing material was not good enough 2) The
>material needed was non-existing. (The material I have written is
>either available on Web (in english) or in tournament modules (50
>pages++) in norwegian.)
Nobody's perfect, Stig, not even you. The quality of a product like TSR's
many times depends on opinions. You don't like most of TSR's products
because it is not the stuff your interested in. So, you make it yourself,
and that is fine. I do it too. That's no excuse, though to sit there and
complain about what TSR is doing.
>
>We as customers are allowed to demand and criticise the company, and
>by all means we should. Without the feedback TSR gets from it's
customers,
>they would not have been able to make the quality they do have on some
>stuff.
I agree, it is okay to critisize a product. But there is a fine line
between critisizm, and out-right hatred.
>
>> I'm one of the few people who agree's with TSR for what they are doing
on
>> the net. I didn't use to, but then I thought about it. Why is TSR's
>> lawyer going around telling people to remove TSR Copyright's from their
>> computer?
>
>I have commented this in an earlier article and refer to that one.
Sorry, don't have it anymore.
>> So lay off TSR Steve and the Company, will ya? They are just trying to
>
>I have nothing against Steve (by all means :) but I as a customer
>has the right to criticise TSR.
I'm glad you have nothing against Steve, that means I wasn't referring to
you. And once, again, I agree.
>
>> So show them a little respect. You would not be posting about how much
>> you love Dragonlance if it weren't for TSR!
>
>Recall that Nirvana has gotten it's own church. When are you going to
>start one for TSR?
Your angry again Stig. Take a deep breath. In. Out. In. Out...
:-)
Jerip Netsetter Jr.