[DoSF] Kender thief?
Holger Goettmann
IIRC in DoSF is mentioned that in the thieves guild (the one Usha
"joined") in Palanthas was also a kender. I惴 sorry, but I wasn愒 able
anymore to find the passage in my version, so I canæ„’ quote it, but
perhaps some of you remember.
So here comes my question: Why did a kender join a thieves guild?
After all they DON`T steal and donæ„’ think they are stealing. To be
called thief is pretty insulting especially for kender.
CU
holger
--
Now some folk, they might say old Danæ„€ luck is running black,
But no matter what he loses, one day soon he惻l win it back,
媒ause all you need愀 a hoopak and a merry tune to hum,
And there惻l always be more where that came from.
("Spirit of the Wind"; Chris Pierson)
-------->http://members.xoom.com/h_goettmann<--------
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
>
> Hi! :-)
>
> IIRC in DoSF is mentioned that in the thieves guild (the one Usha
> anymore to find the passage in my version, so I can´t quote it, but
> perhaps some of you remember.
>
> So here comes my question: Why did a kender join a thieves guild?
> called thief is pretty insulting especially for kender.
>
IIRC there is another mention of a Kender thief in 'Hederic the
Theocrat'. He was in a band of thieves operating in Solace. Not 100%
sure though.
Anyways. A Kender could join a thieves' guild IMO. There just has to be
some motivation behind the kender's actions of joinong a guild.
Again, IIRC in Chronicles Tas deliberatly *stole* something... for
helping the cause of the HotL.
Just my opinion.
***************
Jellybean 'no long term memory' Pouchsnipper
Holger Goettmann
Jellybean Pouchsnipper wrote:
> Anyways. A Kender could join a thieves' guild IMO. There just has to be
> some motivation behind the kender's actions of joinong a guild.
But somehow I canæ„’ imagine any motivation...could you tell me, what
motivation you thought of?
> Again, IIRC in Chronicles Tas deliberatly *stole* something... for
> helping the cause of the HotL.
Really? I really canæ„’ remember that...but I think that Tas surely
"explained" it in another way...I惴 pretty sure that he wouldn愒 call it
"theft"...but I cannot remember that passage...
forever darkness
>So here comes my question: Why did a kender join a thieves guild?
>After all they DON`T steal and don´t think they are stealing. To be
>called thief is pretty insulting especially for kender.
not every kender is good you know, and has "honourable" motivations.
some kender might be thieves because they know what stealing is and
live off of it. most of the kender that are written in the books are
given as naive and innocent. it doesn't mean that all of them are.
cassandra
______________________________________________________________________
"the children of the night... what beautiful music they make"
darkness... hidden from the eyes... absence of light...
______________________________________________________________________
http://www.cyberbeach.net/~spirit | "it can't rain all
| the time" - eric
"a pill to make you numb, a pill to make you dumb |
a pill to make you, anybody else..." - mm |
______________________________________________________________________
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
> > Anyways. A Kender could join a thieves' guild IMO. There just has to be
> > some motivation behind the kender's actions of joinong a guild.
>
> But somehow I can´t imagine any motivation...could you tell me, what
> motivation you thought of?
Well...a good example would be.... ok. If a Kender sees a young orphan
who is mistreated by the populace or ignored and left to die in the
streets, a kender would take the child and try to find him a good home.
But if the kender is as broke as the kid, he'd steal (or borrow) some
money from some merchant saying 'well he has more coins that he would
ever be able to spend in his life, so a steel piece or two won't make a
difference to him'.
As to a Kender joining a thieves' guild the afore-mentionned example
wouldn't do.
But I'm sure that anything along the lines of that would do. Any person
or race, no matter how good they are, can resort to thievery for any
given reasons...
How about a Kender being tricked into being in a thieves' guild?
Kenders are extremely good at being a thieves, so I'm sure that a
thieves' guild would want the services and skills of a kender in their
ranks. All they'd have to say would be something like : 'We are a secret
organization that set things right in this city. For example, you know
of this merchant Kronos? Well, he raped this innocent girl and he bought
his freedom! So tonight, if you'd like to help us, we're gonna break
into his house and steal this big ruby he has in his safe and we'll sell
it and give the money to that poor little girl. And on top of that
there's bound to be other interesting stuff in his house that he ain't
worth to keep as his own... You could take them and give them to poor
people'.
Just what I could think up at the moment.
>
> > Again, IIRC in Chronicles Tas deliberatly *stole* something... for
> > helping the cause of the HotL.
>
> Really? I really can´t remember that...but I think that Tas surely
> "explained" it in another way...I´m pretty sure that he wouldn´t call it
> "theft"...but I cannot remember that passage...
Now on this I'm really not sure... but I think he stole something from
someone... but he was a bad guy so it didn't count or something... 'tis
benn 3-4 years since I read them. Maybe I should read them again when i
get the time...
****************
Jellybean 'no long-termed memory' Pouchsnipper
PantzCat
spi...@cyberbeach.net wrote:
> Holger Goettmann <holger.g...@mainz.netsurf.de> wrote:
>
> >So here comes my question: Why did a kender join a thieves guild?
> >After all they DON`T steal and don´t think they are stealing. To be
> >called thief is pretty insulting especially for kender.
>
> not every kender is good you know, and has "honourable" motivations.
> some kender might be thieves because they know what stealing is and
> live off of it. most of the kender that are written in the books are
> given as naive and innocent. it doesn't mean that all of them are.
Agreed, i'm sure there are plenty of Kender out there who have realised
that they can make a bit of money with there inate skills. just because
we keep reading about Tasslehoff clones it doesn't mean they all are,
actually I think a story about an evil little shit of a kender would be
great.
Having said that I'm suprised that there are any Kender in the Thieves
guild at Palanthas, I would have thought that there would be some rule
about them not being allowed in because of there reputation, tendancy
for getting thrown in to Jail, and because they talk waaay too much!
Phill
http://www.warofsouls.freeserve.co.uk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
PantzCat
Holger Goettmann
Jellybean Pouchsnipper wrote:
> Well...a good example would be.... ok. If a Kender sees a young orphan
> who is mistreated by the populace or ignored and left to die in the
> streets, a kender would take the child and try to find him a good home.
> But if the kender is as broke as the kid, he'd steal (or borrow) some
> money from some merchant saying 'well he has more coins that he would
> ever be able to spend in his life, so a steel piece or two won't make a
> difference to him'.
No...that wasn´t the example I meant...that could be a usual motivation of a
kender...
> But I'm sure that anything along the lines of that would do. Any person
> or race, no matter how good they are, can resort to thievery for any
> given reasons...
IIRC it´s said about kender (in some bestiary...I really can´t remember what
piece exactly) that calling them a tief is a pretty offensive insult...
> How about a Kender being tricked into being in a thieves' guild?
Huh....that´s a possibility...:-)
Damn...I´ve got to find the passage, where the kender in the thieves´ guild
is...because I though that he is described really "bad"...but perhaps I´m
wrong...it´s been some time since I read it...
> Kenders are extremely good at being a thieves, so I'm sure that a
> thieves' guild would want the services and skills of a kender in their
> ranks.
Of course...:-)
> All they'd have to say would be something like : 'We are a secret
> organization that set things right in this city. For example, you know
> of this merchant Kronos? Well, he raped this innocent girl and he bought
> his freedom! So tonight, if you'd like to help us, we're gonna break
> into his house and steal this big ruby he has in his safe and we'll sell
> it and give the money to that poor little girl. And on top of that
> there's bound to be other interesting stuff in his house that he ain't
> worth to keep as his own... You could take them and give them to poor
> people'.
>
> Just what I could think up at the moment.
But I don´t think that the thieves´ guild of Palanthas is that...huh..."nice"
and intelligent...;-)...I thought it´s a gathering of some nasty burglars and
the atmosphere described in there is moody...
> Now on this I'm really not sure... but I think he stole something from
> someone...
And I´m pretty sure that he won´t call it "stealing"...
> but he was a bad guy so it didn't count or something...
Who? Tas? ;-)
Oh yes...Tas is a really bad guy...destroying dragon orbs all night long,
changing time flow and killing nice Fathers-of-All-and-Nothing...;-)))
> 'tis benn 3-4 years since I read them. Maybe I should read them again when i
> get the time...
I recently reread them (some months ago) and I really can´t remember that...but
perhaps you are right...
BTW: This is a very good reason to read Chronicles again...:-))
CU
holger
--
Now some folk, they might say old Dan´s luck is running black,
But no matter what he loses, one day soon he´ll win it back,
´Cause all you need´s a hoopak and a merry tune to hum,
And there´ll always be more where that came from.
Holger Goettmann
forever darkness wrote:
> not every kender is good you know, and has "honourable" motivations.
> some kender might be thieves because they know what stealing is and
> live off of it.
I´ve got new idea...I think it´s nearly impossible that a kender, who was
raised by kender, would join a thieves´ guild...but if he was raised by
some other parents...
That could be a possibility...:-)
> most of the kender that are written in the books are given as naive and
> innocent.
Oh...BTW: Some time ago you recommended me to read "Spirit of the Wind",
because I liked "Tales from Uncle Trapspringer"...yes...you are
right..."Spirit of the Wind" is marvellous...THAT are kender in there...:-)
> it doesn't mean that all of them are.
Sure...but I think especially for a kender in a thieves´ guild there should
be an explanation...
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
>
> IIRC it´s said about kender (in some bestiary...I really can´t remember what
> piece exactly) that calling them a tief is a pretty offensive insult...
Yep. And Tas' reaction of being called a thief in Legends is proof
enough.
But I'm sure that, given the motivation, a Kender could be a thief...
it's just hard to picture this becauz we've been drowned in Tas' clones
in numerous novels. Like Cass said, not every Kender is this
happy-go-lucky innocent kender we read so much (I say too much) about.
> > Kenders are extremely good at being a thieves, so I'm sure that a
> > thieves' guild would want the services and skills of a kender in their
> > ranks.
>
> Of course...:-)
But don't go and say that to them. :oP
>
> > All they'd have to say would be something like : 'We are a secret
> > organization that set things right in this city. For example, you know
> > of this merchant Kronos? Well, he raped this innocent girl and he bought
> > his freedom! So tonight, if you'd like to help us, we're gonna break
> > into his house and steal this big ruby he has in his safe and we'll sell
> > it and give the money to that poor little girl. And on top of that
> > there's bound to be other interesting stuff in his house that he ain't
> > worth to keep as his own... You could take them and give them to poor
> > people'.
> >
> > Just what I could think up at the moment.
>
> But I don´t think that the thieves´ guild of Palanthas is that...huh..."nice"
> and intelligent...;-)...I thought it´s a gathering of some nasty burglars and
> the atmosphere described in there is moody...
Any thieves' guild is quite intelligent and organized. If u have money
to spend go and buy 'Thieves' Den' or something like that. It's AD&D
stuff concerning a thieves' guild and how they operates, their
hierarchy, the architecture of the guild etc. There is several different
departments in a thieves' guild ranging from pickpokets to buglars to
bodyguards to scrying, etc. The only place I'd see a kender thief would
be as a spy, pick-poket or burglar.
>
> > Now on this I'm really not sure... but I think he stole something from
> > someone...
>
> And I´m pretty sure that he won´t call it "stealing"...
>
> > but he was a bad guy so it didn't count or something...
>
> Who? Tas? ;-)
>
> Oh yes...Tas is a really bad guy...destroying dragon orbs all night long,
> changing time flow and killing nice Fathers-of-All-and-Nothing...;-)))
>
Nope. The 'victim'
> BTW: This is a very good reason to read Chronicles again...:-))
Yeah. As soon as I finished my 3 next books in FR + maybe a classic (as
a break)...I'm thinking Kafka or Balzac... Then' I'll jump back into
Chronicles. So by Christmas drop a line in here and I'll tell you if I
was right in the reference about Tas' stealing.
******************
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
> Agreed, i'm sure there are plenty of Kender out there who have realised
> that they can make a bit of money with there inate skills. just because
> we keep reading about Tasslehoff clones it doesn't mean they all are,
> actually I think a story about an evil little shit of a kender would be
> great.
Try and read 'The companions' (IIRC). I warn you though: concentrate
only on Tas (IMO the book's not so great). You'll see what an evil
Kender does...'tis not a pretty picture...
Holger Goettmann
Jellybean Pouchsnipper wrote:
> Yep. And Tas' reaction of being called a thief in Legends is proof
> enough.
> But I'm sure that, given the motivation, a Kender could be a thief...
> it's just hard to picture this becauz we've been drowned in Tas' clones
> in numerous novels. Like Cass said, not every Kender is this
> happy-go-lucky innocent kender we read so much (I say too much) about.
Yes...agreed...
But I don´t think there are everywhere "Tas´ clones"...well...of course those in
"Tales of Uncle..." THESE weren´t Tas-Clones...they were...huh...stupid...;-)
And in "Spirit of the Wind" there aren´t any Tas-Clones I think...perhaps except
Kronn...he reminded me very much of Tas, but the rest of them isn´t a
"Tas-clone"...
Also I think that MOST of the kender ARE really upset about thievery...perhaps you
remember that passage (sorry...I´m just too lazy at the moment to look for the
passage and quote it...but I´m sure) in DoSF, when it was said that Paxina managed
to defend Kendermore from the KoT by telling the kender that the KoT want to steal
their things...so I think that most kender (perhaps not all...but most of them)
disgust thievery itself...
BTW: I also don´t like Tas-Clones...but I haven´t met that much...perhaps I read
the "wrong" (or "right"...just point of view *grin*) stories...;-)...I really hate
Tas-Clones...EVERY kender can be a individual character!
> > > Kenders are extremely good at being a thieves, so I'm sure that a
> > > thieves' guild would want the services and skills of a kender in their
> > > ranks.
> >
> > Of course...:-)
>
> But don't go and say that to them. :oP
Nope...and I won´t say it to my own character...I think I´d kick myself
then...*grin*
> Any thieves' guild is quite intelligent and organized. If u have money
> to spend go and buy 'Thieves' Den' or something like that. It's AD&D
> stuff concerning a thieves' guild and how they operates, their
> hierarchy, the architecture of the guild etc. There is several different
> departments in a thieves' guild ranging from pickpokets to buglars to
> bodyguards to scrying, etc.
Okay...but I don´t look upon the thieves´ guild from the view of AD&D (because I
haven´t played AD&D for long...I prefer now SAGA)...I look upon the thieves´ guild
how it is described in the book...and in the book isn´t any such thing as you
mentioned...I even think that it is stated to be less somewhere...
> > Who? Tas? ;-)
> >
> > Oh yes...Tas is a really bad guy...destroying dragon orbs all night long,
> > changing time flow and killing nice Fathers-of-All-and-Nothing...;-)))
> >
>
> Nope. The 'victim'
I know...but I could not resist...*giggle*
> Yeah. As soon as I finished my 3 next books in FR + maybe a classic (as
> a break)...I'm thinking Kafka or Balzac... Then' I'll jump back into
> Chronicles. So by Christmas drop a line in here and I'll tell you if I
> was right in the reference about Tas' stealing.
Oki....perhaps I also read them again when I finished the Chaos War Series (I´m
really looking forward to "Siege of Mt. Nevermind")...
forever darkness
>> not every kender is good you know, and has "honourable" motivations.
>> some kender might be thieves because they know what stealing is and
>> live off of it.
>
>I“ve got new idea...I think it“s nearly impossible that a kender, who was
>raised by kender, would join a thieves“ guild...but if he was raised by
>some other parents...
>
>That could be a possibility...:-)
*precisely*! not all kender are raised as kender. not all kender
learn good values off their kender parents even. if you have a kender
that suffered intensely at the hands of dragon highlords or something,
you might have an angry and vengeful kender.
scary thought when you look at it. :)
>> most of the kender that are written in the books are given as naive and
>> innocent.
>
>Oh...BTW: Some time ago you recommended me to read "Spirit of the Wind",
>because I liked "Tales from Uncle Trapspringer"...yes...you are
>right..."Spirit of the Wind" is marvellous...THAT are kender in there...:-)
you see? :) so much better than "tales of uncle trapspringer"!
>> it doesn't mean that all of them are.
>
>Sure...but I think especially for a kender in a thieves“ guild there should
>be an explanation...
it's probably not a central concept in the book, which is why they
didn't bother explaining the kender.
Holger Goettmann
forever darkness wrote:
> *precisely*! not all kender are raised as kender. not all kender
> learn good values off their kender parents even. if you have a kender
> that suffered intensely at the hands of dragon highlords or something,
> you might have an angry and vengeful kender.
Okay..."new kender" (I mean after the 2nd Cataclysm) are in a way completely
different to kender before SC I think...I think that espeacially the "new
kender" (both...true and afflicted kender) gained more "character" in some way
and doesn´t exist anymore as clichés...
> >Oh...BTW: Some time ago you recommended me to read "Spirit of the Wind",
> >because I liked "Tales from Uncle Trapspringer"...yes...you are
> >right..."Spirit of the Wind" is marvellous...THAT are kender in there...:-)
>
> you see? :) so much better than "tales of uncle trapspringer"!
Oh yes...:-)...also I have to admit that I enjoyed reading ToUT....but "Spirit
of the Wind" is definitely great!...ToUT ist...huh..."entertaining"...;-)...but
that seems to be point of view...*grin*
> >Sure...but I think especially for a kender in a thieves´ guild there should
> >be an explanation...
>
> it's probably not a central concept in the book, which is why they
> didn't bother explaining the kender.
What a pity! I think that would be really interesting...
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
>
> concentrate only on specific scenes with Tas, and don't look at the
> cover before you tear it off and burn it (Flint and Sturm *did not* have
> that gear at that point in time). That book, if taken seriously, casts
> severe doubts on how Tas lived to DoAT, and why (normally laughing)
> Raistlin started off only third level. The little idiot actually
> advised his captors on how to torture him!
> And halving Sturm's Solamnicness was not as evil as they can get...
I was thinking about the parts when...
SPOILER SPACE
1) he made those poor cows repaint his quarters a different colour every
day
2) wondered how a dead minotaur looks like when it falls to its death
and pushed the poor sod into that pit.
BTW. Your Cover art inconsistencies in 'The Companions' reminded me also
about 'Flint the King' with his helmet... Do you know about any other
'Art Inconsistencies'?
Tolstrup
concentrate only on specific scenes with Tas, and don't look at the
cover before you tear it off and burn it (Flint and Sturm *did not* have
that gear at that point in time). That book, if taken seriously, casts
severe doubts on how Tas lived to DoAT, and why (normally laughing)
Raistlin started off only third level. The little idiot actually
advised his captors on how to torture him!
And halving Sturm's Solamnicness was not as evil as they can get...
I envisage an evil kender as more like Elaith Craulnobur...
Rohan Tolstrup
Jenna
>Damn...I“ve got to find the passage, where the kender in the thieves“ guild
>is...because I though that he is described really "bad"...but perhaps I“m
>wrong...it“s been some time since I read it...
>
>> thieves' guild would want the services and skills of a kender in their
>> ranks.
I suppose that there could be some truly evil kender. There were
kender clerics of Paladine, according to Legends, though it's hard to
imagine a kender that one-sided. I see them as highly chaotic in
nature, but there could be some that find evil to be the most
interesting, much like Raistlin was drawn to evil for its benefits.
Don't get me wrong, I love kender, but if there is a capacity for true
good (cleric of Paladine), then the capacity for true evil must also
exist (thief by choice).
Just my opinion...
--Jenna
Jenna, the afdl pseudo-dino
"Jenna is my REAL name, you ASS!" -me
"..Who taught you to fight? Your great-aunt Minnie?" --Flint Fireforge
"Splattered?? I never in my life SPLATTERED!" -Fizban the Fabulous
Jenna
>that they can make a bit of money with there inate skills. just because
>we keep reading about Tasslehoff clones it doesn't mean they all are,
>actually I think a story about an evil little shit of a kender would be
>great.
OH, MAN! That would be great! I'd read the book to absolute bits!
>
>Having said that I'm suprised that there are any Kender in the Thieves
>guild at Palanthas, I would have thought that there would be some rule
>about them not being allowed in because of there reputation, tendancy
>for getting thrown in to Jail, and because they talk waaay too much!
Good point. If Tas yaks every five minutes about Flint getting dunked
bu Caramon, his uncle Trapspringer whizzing off to the moon, etc, I'd
think that he'd also be like "Hey, you know that there's a thieves
guild here in Palanthas? Yeah, Jimmy One-Eye is a real prick, but he
lets me keep all of the shiny glass beads that I rip off of the
ladies' necks, as long as he gets the gold..."
Jenna
>PantzCat wrote:
>
>> Agreed, i'm sure there are plenty of Kender out there who have realised
>> that they can make a bit of money with there inate skills. just because
>> we keep reading about Tasslehoff clones it doesn't mean they all are,
>> actually I think a story about an evil little shit of a kender would be
>> great.
>
>
>Try and read 'The companions' (IIRC). I warn you though: concentrate
>only on Tas (IMO the book's not so great). You'll see what an evil
>Kender does...'tis not a pretty picture...
I tried desperately to read that book and failed. My wanderlust took
me to other (less boring and trite) reading materials...
Maybe I'll try agin. Otherwise, it's a waste of six bucks..
---Jenna
Jenna
>BTW. Your Cover art inconsistencies in 'The Companions' reminded me also
>about 'Flint the King' with his helmet... Do you know about any other
>'Art Inconsistencies'?
How about every cover that's been redone when it shouldn't have? No,
wait, that's not inconsistent, that's just sacrelige (sp?). Uhm, some
pictures have Caramon as a left-hander, and others as a right-hander.
Most of the faces of all the chars are inconsistent from cover to
cover, with the exception of Elmore's cover art for Legends. In some
paintings, Tas has a very bulbous nose, which is a more dwarven trait.
There was this painting of Crysania in front of the kingpriest which
has everybody in Farah Fawcett 70's hair, which is certainly
inconsistent with the time period of the picture's release. Most of
the dragons from picture to picture don't look much like each other.
Also, one of the preludes (I think) has Sturm in his father's Solamnic
armor, which he wouldn't have gotten yet.
Just my $.02
PantzCat
Jellybean Pouchsnipper <Jeste...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> PantzCat wrote:
>
> > Agreed, i'm sure there are plenty of Kender out there who have
realised
> > that they can make a bit of money with there inate skills. just
because
> > we keep reading about Tasslehoff clones it doesn't mean they all
are,
> > actually I think a story about an evil little shit of a kender
would be
> > great.
>
> Try and read 'The companions' (IIRC). I warn you though: concentrate
> only on Tas (IMO the book's not so great). You'll see what an evil
> Kender does...'tis not a pretty picture...
Please don't make me.......I gave up on the preludes before 'the
companions' in fear that my brain would melt.
Tolstrup
> BTW. Your Cover art inconsistencies in 'The Companions' reminded me also
> about 'Flint the King' with his helmet... Do you know about any other
> 'Art Inconsistencies'?
normally we don't bother with spoilers if the book's been out say since
I was in year nine. That aside....
for some reason Sturm's always been drawn with the moustache and the
armour. He's definitely wearing it in the art for that 'lost in a
snowstorm' story. Not like a set of platemail will be especially useful
for climbing a mountain with a load of firewood in a snowfall...
iirc Flint was wearing that bloody helmet on the cover of Kindred
Spirits, when he definitely didn't have it.
Of course, nobody can decide what the staff of Magius looks like, and
it's uncertain whether the twins are identical (I say) or fraternal.
Similarly, Caramon's been shown right-handed (in the text he was always
a lefty), and I'm assuming that's the remains of Laurana's skirt rather
than a disgusting resolution to the Elven Groin Debate.
You seen the Fifth Age conspectus? 'Guerrand' is actually Bram,
'Chemosh' is Orcus, and in general much of the art is recycled and/or
misquoted.
Rohan Tolstrup
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
Tolstrup wrote:
> <snip nasty examples of evil kender I forgot about>
>
> > BTW. Your Cover art inconsistencies in 'The Companions' reminded me also
> > about 'Flint the King' with his helmet... Do you know about any other
> > 'Art Inconsistencies'?
>
> for some reason Sturm's always been drawn with the moustache and the
> armour.
I don't recall a picture of Sturm when he was a kid... do you? (Thank gawd)
> He's definitely wearing it in the art for that 'lost in a
> snowstorm' story.
Hope he never tried to stick his tongue on his armor at that time....now THAT
would be interesting art.
> Not like a set of platemail will be especially useful
> for climbing a mountain with a load of firewood in a snowfall...
Rohan - 209485674T$R - 0
Near the mark? :-)
> iirc Flint was wearing that bloody helmet on the cover of Kindred
> Spirits, when he definitely didn't have it.
Maybe this is a time traveling helmet with a
oh!-I'm-gonna-draw-a-picture-of-Flint magnet...
> Of course, nobody can decide what the staff of Magius looks like,
How many versions so far? 3 (DoSD, Legends, BiA. Of Course I'd have to check
the new cover arts + Soulfourge, Companinies and all...)?Which one do you
prefer?
I think I like the one on the original DoSD best.
> and
> it's uncertain whether the twins are identical (I say) or fraternal.
Never seen ppl change soo much in so short time. First we see a big,
not-that-of-a-hunk Caramon in DoSD, then we see this stud in Legends (wonder
how fat he was when he was that drunk bastard. 'Tis would also be an
interesting drawing), and in BiA....and so forth.
> Similarly, Caramon's been shown right-handed (in the text he was always
> a lefty), and I'm assuming that's the remains of Laurana's skirt rather
> than a disgusting resolution to the Elven Groin Debate.
teehee.After all. Elves are considered to be the purtiests of the humanoids
(except the Hyrdas?) and if ever elvish women had a clitoris the size of a
banana... I don't think that other races would find 'em attractive... except
maybe the Dwarves...
Do you know if DL female Dwarves have beard?
I remember reading that this female dwarf in Kendermore (or that other one
with that cover with tas faiiling in cold water and flint (with his magical
helmet) trying to save him..can't remember the title... oh... Kindred Spirit)
you know.. that bounty hunter? she wasn't wearing a beard.
> You seen the Fifth Age conspectus? 'Guerrand' is actually Bram,
> 'Chemosh' is Orcus, and in general much of the art is recycled and/or
> misquoted.
>
If it's Larry's work (I -again- can't remember who did them), he takes those
same models nearly every time he makes paintings (I've read it somewhere... a
link on Margaret's web page I think) so I can figure...
Do you know if those artist have to read the novels or their drawings are
edited before being selected?
I wouldn't be suprised if they got edited... by the same guys who edit the
novels...
************************************
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
> Please don't make me.......I gave up on the preludes before 'the
> companions' in fear that my brain would melt.
SUFFER!!!!! MWAHAHAHA!!! :-)
See!? There *are* evil Kender after all! :oP
Morten Brattbakk
Jenna <gall...@prontomail.com> skrev
> Don't get me wrong, I love kender, but if there is a capacity for true
> good (cleric of Paladine), then the capacity for true evil must also
> exist (thief by choice).
Somehow, I doubt that. Even if we ignore the source material that states
that no evil kender have been known ever to exist, I disagree strongly with
the notion that kender have a capacity for good as well as evil.
You see, I don't see a kender cleric of Paladine as a being of a more
"good" alignment than the average kender. The way I see Tas and other
kender, they are *all* very good and compassionate. That's the norm. A
kender cleric is no more good than the rest of them, just a bit more
religious and, possibly, more orderly and serious.
As for the portrayal of kender, I agree that they should be individuals and
not Tas clones, but neither should they lack any of the kender
characteristics. The problem is, tas is in many ways the embodiment of
kender characteristics. Writers often seem to have a problem getting all
the kender traits right, while still not creating a Tas clone. It is very
difficult of course, as the kender often are Tas v2.0 (Gates of
Thorbardin), or not kender at all (Tales of Uncle Trapspringer). Spirit of
the Wind managed to create individual kenders, and it takes a talent like
Chris Pierson to pull it off, obviously.
Morten
Tolstrup
>
> Tolstrup wrote:
>
> > <snip nasty examples of evil kender I forgot about>
> >
> > > BTW. Your Cover art inconsistencies in 'The Companions' reminded me also
> > > about 'Flint the King' with his helmet... Do you know about any other
> > > 'Art Inconsistencies'?
> >
> > for some reason Sturm's always been drawn with the moustache and the
> > armour.
>
> I don't recall a picture of Sturm when he was a kid... do you? (Thank gawd)
the one in Love and War where he's fleeing Solamnia and fights a tyrant
in Schallsea?
> > He's definitely wearing it in the art for that 'lost in a
> > snowstorm' story.
>
> Hope he never tried to stick his tongue on his armor at that time....now THAT
> would be interesting art.
what, realism? They showed a miniseries about Joan of Arc here
recently, and I half-expected that her captors were making her wear
chainmail constantly as torture. Apparently it's just another knitwear.
Of course, I'm in a game (which I would happily leave if it didn't give
me a better chance than none that I'd get a game of my own) where the
farmers wear leather armour all the time.
> > Not like a set of platemail will be especially useful
> > for climbing a mountain with a load of firewood in a snowfall...
>
> Rohan - 209485674T$R - 0
>
> Near the mark? :-)
I stopped keeping score ages ago. It's just too easy.
> > iirc Flint was wearing that bloody helmet on the cover of Kindred
> > Spirits, when he definitely didn't have it.
>
> Maybe this is a time traveling helmet with a
> oh!-I'm-gonna-draw-a-picture-of-Flint magnet...
probably less cheesy than the inevitable 'level- and memory-draining
undead critter' in the dreaded third Raistlin Chronicle that explains
why five years after his Test he was only third level.
> > Of course, nobody can decide what the staff of Magius looks like,
>
> How many versions so far? 3 (DoSD, Legends, BiA. Of Course I'd have to check
> the new cover arts + Soulfourge, Companinies and all...)?Which one do you
> prefer?
> I think I like the one on the original DoSD best.
it looks best when the setting's a claw instead of a sheath
> > and
> > it's uncertain whether the twins are identical (I say) or fraternal.
>
> Never seen ppl change soo much in so short time. First we see a big,
> not-that-of-a-hunk Caramon in DoSD, then we see this stud in Legends (wonder
> how fat he was when he was that drunk bastard. 'Tis would also be an
> interesting drawing), and in BiA....and so forth.
I figure Cazza looked about the same but with a three day growth and a
somewhat increased girth. He was already huge, and became bulkier.
> > Similarly, Caramon's been shown right-handed (in the text he was always
> > a lefty), and I'm assuming that's the remains of Laurana's skirt rather
> > than a disgusting resolution to the Elven Groin Debate.
>
> teehee.After all. Elves are considered to be the purtiests of the humanoids
> (except the Hyrdas?) and if ever elvish women had a clitoris the size of a
> banana... I don't think that other races would find 'em attractive... except
> maybe the Dwarves...
Freud would consider them the perfect women. I was actually thinking of
it as "pubic hair: mark one" before they came up with predetermined
uniform length
> Do you know if DL female Dwarves have beard?
nope. Don't see why they should.
> I remember reading that this female dwarf in Kendermore (or that other one
> with that cover with tas faiiling in cold water and flint (with his magical
> helmet) trying to save him..can't remember the title... oh... Kindred Spirit)
> you know.. that bounty hunter? she wasn't wearing a beard.
Kendermore. Not only is that the prototypical noncanon novel, but I
cheered when that 'dwarf' went down. She acted *nothing* like a dwarf;
after all, dwarves are pragmatic, which means being able to cook and
making sure the backup is more than an unarmed kid.
> > You seen the Fifth Age conspectus? 'Guerrand' is actually Bram,
> > 'Chemosh' is Orcus, and in general much of the art is recycled and/or
> > misquoted.
> >
>
> If it's Larry's work (I -again- can't remember who did them), he takes those
> same models nearly every time he makes paintings (I've read it somewhere... a
> link on Margaret's web page I think) so I can figure...
it's the actual art from Mines of Bloodstone
> Do you know if those artist have to read the novels or their drawings are
> edited before being selected?
> I wouldn't be suprised if they got edited... by the same guys who edit the
> novels...
continuity died long ago. I'd say often the art is based on the
synopsis. I understand Sean Colvin wrote a 'hit single' about the girl
on the cover of her album.
Rohan Tolstrup
Frank and Elly
Holger Goettmann <holger.g...@mainz.netsurf.de> wrote
> So here comes my question: Why did a kender join a thieves guild?
Well, I suppose there is something to be said for exceptions to the rule.
In any case, the kender could simply be there for their own, usually
social, reasons. Just because a kender doesn't consider himself a thief
doesn't mean that he wouldn't find thieves to be fascinating company. And
the thieves probably wouldn't mind, considering the information and even
assistance that kender might provide.
--
Frank
*********************************************************
Calvin: Hobbes, I've been thinking.....
Hobbes: On a weekend?
Calvin: Well it wasn't on purpose.......
*********************************************************
kris
<< Do you know about any other
'Art Inconsistencies'?
>>
In both the cover of Time of the Twins(1) and the picture of Raistlin and
Crysania in the woods, he is pictured with golden skin. However, at this time
Raistlin was normal looking.
"The young man's eyes were not golden, not shaped like the hourglass that had
become his symbol. The skin was not tinted gold, the face was not frail and
sickly. The man's face was pale...but it was healthy...The eyes were brown..."
(Time of the Twins, p. 310)
This change occurs when he travels back in time. When he returns to the
future he once again has golden skin and eyes. A reference is made to this in
Test of the Twins, on page 109.
So did Larry Elmore simply decide to portray Raistlin as he is commonly
imagined, or was it simply an oversight?
1-We know that this was Crysania-in-Istar not Crysania-in-Palanthas because she
didn't get all dolled up until she came to Istar.
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
> > Do you know if DL female Dwarves have beard?
>
> nope. Don't see why they should.
It's just that FR dwarven females has them.
>
> Kendermore. Not only is that the prototypical noncanon novel, but I
> cheered when that 'dwarf' went down. She acted *nothing* like a dwarf;
> after all, dwarves are pragmatic, which means being able to cook and
> making sure the backup is more than an unarmed kid.
Hmmm... You make me think 'bout something here... Let's *ass-ume* that
'Kendermore' is canon (now Rohan... I'm really not comfortable talking
with a gun up my ass....it's just for the sake of my argument).
If say... 1 of every 3 kender requires a bounty hunter to track them
down to be wedded... that means...
- 5 steal pieces for the bounty hunter to find the Kender in question
(maybe more?)
- 10 steal to bring him back
- Considering that maybe 70% of all caught kender gets bored with all
that ceremony and wanders away.. 5-10 steal per recaughts...
(and i'm being cheap here! I just read from the new book by Salvatore
that Wulfgar's been offered 1 gp a day to escort a caravan... hope this
isn't a spoiler for you)
Equals... wow! Kendermore must be the richest Nation in any prime
material planes! Forget Waterdeep, Palanthas or Mith Dranor!
How can they produce so much richess? I just now reread the definition
of Kender community in the player's guide... and it beats the hell outa
me how they can acheive it!
Any theories?
********************
Jellybean
'maybe-ass-raped-by-gun-for-his-'Kendermore'is-canon-assumption-for-his-rantings'
Pouchsnipper
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
>
> In both the cover of Time of the Twins(1) and the picture of Raistlin and
> Crysania in the woods, he is pictured with golden skin. However, at this time
> Raistlin was normal looking.
>
> "The young man's eyes were not golden, not shaped like the hourglass that had
> become his symbol. The skin was not tinted gold, the face was not frail and
> sickly. The man's face was pale...but it was healthy...The eyes were brown..."
>
> (Time of the Twins, p. 310)
ummm... I always thought that the cover art represented the time when
Crysania were in Raistlin's arms after she passed through the shoikan
grove. 'tis the only time she 'hugged' him in TotT (IIRC).
kris
<< ummm... I always thought that the cover art represented the time when
Crysania were in Raistlin's arms after she passed through the shoikan
grove. 'tis the only time she 'hugged' him in TotT (IIRC). >>
At the very end of the book, page 397, when they travel forward in time,
"The grip of Raistlin's arms around Crysania tightened in ecstasy... she put
her arms around him and laid her head on his chest and let herself sink into
the darkness."
I consider that to be a fair description of the cover art. Of course, the
seen you are referring to be would fit the same description, except she is
clothed in a very decadent fashion. On page 10 , where she is still in
Palanthas, she is described as wearing plain robes, with her hair pulled
severely away from her face. Page 328, when Tas is peering through the door to
Raistlin's chambers, he comments on her change in appearance (specifically, the
embroidered robe and flowing hair) and contrasts that with the last time he had
seen her (just after the time travel spell was completed, IIRC).
kris
<< "The grip of Raistlin's arms around Crysania tightened in ecstasy... >>
Tolstrup
>
> Tolstrup wrote:
> > > Do you know if DL female Dwarves have beard?
> >
> > nope. Don't see why they should.
>
FR has at last count three or four distinct dwarven subraces. In those
cold tunnels up north, it sounds like something that evolved as facial
protection, as well as to prevent orcs et al from singling out females
(I'm sure they have a party when they capture a lady dwarf).
Considering there are so few females, sounds like a genetic attempt to
make sure only dwarf males breed with them. The Rockhome dwarves don't
have bearded women, and I don't see why DL dwarves should. Apart from
different placement of vestigial fur, is there any reason men grow
beards and women don't?
> > Kendermore. Not only is that the prototypical noncanon novel, but I
> > cheered when that 'dwarf' went down. She acted *nothing* like a dwarf;
> > after all, dwarves are pragmatic, which means being able to cook and
> > making sure the backup is more than an unarmed kid.
>
> Hmmm... You make me think 'bout something here... Let's *ass-ume* that
> 'Kendermore' is canon (now Rohan... I'm really not comfortable talking
> with a gun up my ass....it's just for the sake of my argument).
scanning
target acquired
25% lock
50% lock
target locked
weapon armed
> If say... 1 of every 3 kender requires a bounty hunter to track them
> down to be wedded... that means...
kender travel around roughly from their teens to their thirties, then
settle down and stay there, usually in a kender enclave. Doesn't sound
remotely necessary.
> - 5 steal pieces for the bounty hunter to find the Kender in question
> (maybe more?)
>
> - 10 steal to bring him back
>
> - Considering that maybe 70% of all caught kender gets bored with all
> that ceremony and wanders away.. 5-10 steal per recaughts...
>
> (and i'm being cheap here! I just read from the new book by Salvatore
> that Wulfgar's been offered 1 gp a day to escort a caravan... hope this
> isn't a spoiler for you)
>
> Equals... wow! Kendermore must be the richest Nation in any prime
> material planes! Forget Waterdeep, Palanthas or Mith Drannor!
>
> How can they produce so much richess? I just now reread the definition
> of Kender community in the player's guide... and it beats the hell outa
> me how they can acheive it!
>
> Any theories?
cute except you basically seem to be saying 'why if this inherently
flawed and noncanonical practice is followed isn't Kendermore a literal
goldmine?' Simple answer is that 'Kendermore' is something Caramon
might believe and others know is bullshit. Now Port Blacksand, *that*
is a good racket...
'maybe-ass-raped-by-gun-for-his-'Kendermore'is-canon-assumption-for-his-rantings'
> Pouchsnipper
no, I don't do that. Sword wouldn't do that, Sean reads DL for brain
candy between anarchist textbooks and so wouldn't care...
And Mirumoto Jinin might be weird enough to do that, except he'd use his
wakizashi instead.
Rohan Tolstrup
afghanyat
a funny book i might add
one of my favourites
**thinks since every 1 else makes quotes he might do 1 also
Allah's light illuminated mankind it does not blind him
Morten Brattbakk wrote in message
<01bf0524$568ce8e0$LocalHost@OEMCOMPUTER>...
Jellybean Pouchsnipper
Good point!
Kris - 1
Jellybean - 0
:o)
kris
<< Good point! >>
Thanks:)
kris
>
>> Don't get me wrong, I love kender, but if there is a capacity for true
>> good (cleric of Paladine), then the capacity for true evil must also
>> exist (thief by choice). >>
I agree. The inhabitants of Krynn have free will. The elves are the "ancient
embodiment of good", yet still we have dark elves. The negative qualities
often possessed by the elves (arrogance, lack of compassion, feelings of
superiority in regard to the other races) are often simply exacerbated in the
case of dark elves.
What are the overwhelming characteristics of kender? In my opinion,
curiosity, a child-like outlook, and lack of fear. I could see these qualities
easily perverted by evil. How loudly will a minotaur bellow when branded?
Does a dead human burn at the same rate as a live human? If a gully dwarf is
thrown from a cliff, will you be able to hear it splatter? And does it depend
on the height of the cliff?
Also, Tas at least had quite a fasination with the darker side of life. In at
least one place in the Chronicles, he mentions that he would like to talk to
Kitiara because he thinks it would be interesting to be a Dragon Highlord. At
the end of DoSD, when Tas pricks his finger trying to escape the temple with
Tika (I think this is the right place) Raistlin saves his life. I think I
remember Tas begging him to summon a demon from the Abyss, and I believe he was
also quite fascinated by Raistlin's black mage status. However, since my copy
of that book has disappeared somewhere in the gaping maw that is my bedroom, I
am not positive.
Also, kender are a lot like children, and I can personally verify that
children, for all of their vaunted innocence, can be cruel.
<< As for the portrayal of kender, I agree that they should be individuals >>
This seems to be a problem with much of the fantasy I have read. The author
creates a race that is non-human, and applies to them certain characteristics
which are only part of the human gamut of personality and actions. This
severely limits the possibility for variations in characterization. In my
opinion, it would be better to tackle th race problem of fantasy by saying that
the characteristics that are largely present in the population are a cultural
factor. You could then develop characters which both embody the
characteristics associated with their people, but also can develop deviations
when said characters are exposed to influences outside of their culture. We
see this kind of cultural exchange between the people of earth, I think it
should be no less relevant on imaginary worlds.
I am not saying that this does not happen on Krynn. This has occurred with
elves(Alhana) and minotaur(Kaz), and Tas said ( after either the end of
Chronicles or Legends) that he could no longer talk to other kender, that they
no longer understood each other. So, the races of Krynn are not pigeonholed,
and are subject to stepping outside oftheir cultural and racial background.
The fact that some of the authors might not utilize this option does not mean
that is does not exist.
kris
Morten Brattbakk
afghanyat <afgh...@primus.com.au> skrev
> actually tas was evil in the novel the companions
But in that book Tas's mind had been magically altered, and I guess that
would make anybody evil. Second, that book is very much inconsistent with
Chronicles.
Morten
*-Stryfe-*
(like Tas , who really dont consider themselves thieves) and kender thieves
who know that they are stealing.
*-Stryfe-*
worst neither.Some of the charaters just didn't feel like the charaters i
was used to but the story was for me enjoyable.
>
> I tried desperately to read that book and failed. My wanderlust took
> me to other (less boring and trite) reading materials...
>
> Maybe I'll try agin. Otherwise, it's a waste of six bucks..
>
> ---Jenna
Jenna
>might believe and others know is bullshit.
D'OH!! Perfect! heehee!
Jenna
> I wrote (in a fog caused by not enough sleep or caffeine)
><< "The grip of Raistlin's arms around Crysania tightened in ecstasy... >>
> I will concede that he doesn't look very ecstatic on the cover:)
Ain't that the truth!
afghanyat
Morten Brattbakk wrote in message
Tolstrup
>
> but it was a good book
noncanon - IT NEVER HAPPENED
Rohan Tolstrup