Gohan after Kaioshin's power-up vs SSJ3 Goku
Adnan
I was wondering. Who's stronger between SSJ3 Goku and Kaioshin
Powered-up Gohan?
Adnan
Freezer
The general consensus in these parts (from what I've observed) is that
Mystic Gohan was stronger; the second strongest character in DBZ, in
fact, next to Vegitto.
--
My name is:
____ _
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And my anti-drug is porn.
Adnan
>
> If I don't respond to this Adnan post, the terrorists win.
>
> > I'm sure it's been debated before but I was never around to enjoy it so
> > I was wondering. Who's stronger between SSJ3 Goku and Kaioshin
> > Powered-up Gohan?
> >
> > Adnan
> >
>
> The general consensus in these parts (from what I've observed) is that
> Mystic Gohan was stronger; the second strongest character in DBZ, in
> fact, next to Vegitto.
OK, but can I know how you've reached that conclusion? Thanks.
TooTall
Who would win SSJ Mystic Gohan or a SSJ4?
Gohan turns SSJ in GT, but not known if it's regualr SSJ or SSJ Mystic.
-------------------------
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Lucky Devin
wrote:
>I'm sure it's been debated before but I was never around to enjoy it so
>I was wondering. Who's stronger between SSJ3 Goku and Kaioshin
>Powered-up Gohan?
As Freezer stated, it's pretty widely accepted that 'Mystic' (whatever your
name is for him) Gohan, after he reached his full potential under the
Kaiou-shinn's training was indeed more powerful than even SSJ3 Goku.
It's a bit hard to explain due to the various forms of Buu but I'll try. SSJ3
Goku fought with Fat Buu, and seemed to have a bit of an advantage. There is no
way Goku could have destroyed Buu on his own however.
When Gohan first arrived back from Kaiou-shinn's planet, he had to fight Super
Buu (or any other names you wish to call that particular Buu), a markedly more
powerful warrior than Fat Buu. If not more powerful, then more tactical and
mobile at least. At this point, Buu had just tangled with a fused SSJ3 in
Gotenks. SSJ3 Gotenks sparred well with Buu, but again failed to take advantage
of opportunities to finish off Buu, and even if he was given such
opportunities, he wouldn't be able to destroy Buu.
When Gohan makes it on the scene after Gotenks had de-fused, he wipes the floor
with Buu like no one has done before. Gohan has the advantage in speed, power,
agility, strength, everything. Buu is forced to result to staging a
self-explosion, as he is trying to buy time to come up with a plan to defeat
Gohan, whom he knows has a huge advantage.
Buu reappears, and does his sneaky little trick to absorb Piccolo and Gotenks.
Enter Buucolotenks ^_^. This is where Gohan stops having the advantage, but
when forced to fight an unstoppable monster with Piccolo and a fused SSJ3
inside him, Gohan finally lost.
If I left anything out, feel free to fill in the blanks.
--
She's got me lifted, shifted; higher than the ceiling,
Devin Tregre
"Today, you are who you are today. You're not perfect, but always remember you
have a lot to live for. Today, you are who you are today."
*All motor - H22A PAWA~!*
TheShr...@prodigy.net
Gotenks.
> Enter Buucolotenks ^_^. This is where Gohan stops having the advantage,
but
> when forced to fight an unstoppable monster with Piccolo and a fused SSJ3
> inside him, Gohan finally lost.
>
> If I left anything out, feel free to fill in the blanks.
>
This is what bothers me with how Buu is ultimatley defeated. If Kid Buu
was even more powerfull, how does a Genki Dama, that didn't even work
against Freeza and that was apparently the same in size, manage to defeat
Kid Buu so easilly? My guess is Toriyama really did create a villain so
powerfull, he wrote himself into a corner, and used the only move he hadn't
tried yet in order to finally finish him off..
Freezer
If I'm reading things right, the Genki Dama Goku hit Freeza with was
essentially filled with energy from a dead system. The Genki Dama he
hit Buu with was filled with energy from the entire population of
Earth. Presumably that makes a difference.
Adnan
>
> >Adnan be...@sympatico.ca
> wrote:
>
> >I'm sure it's been debated before but I was never around to enjoy it so
> >I was wondering. Who's stronger between SSJ3 Goku and Kaioshin
> >Powered-up Gohan?
>
> As Freezer stated, it's pretty widely accepted that 'Mystic' (whatever your
> name is for him) Gohan, after he reached his full potential under the
> Kaiou-shinn's training was indeed more powerful than even SSJ3 Goku.
>
> It's a bit hard to explain due to the various forms of Buu but I'll try. SSJ3
> Goku fought with Fat Buu, and seemed to have a bit of an advantage. There is no
> way Goku could have destroyed Buu on his own however.
IIRC, Goku admitted that he could've beaten Fat Buu but decided not to
because he wanted one of the living to do it? He said that to Vegeta
right before he started to fight Kid Buu in the Kaioshin realm.
>
> When Gohan first arrived back from Kaiou-shinn's planet, he had to fight Super
> Buu (or any other names you wish to call that particular Buu), a markedly more
> powerful warrior than Fat Buu. If not more powerful, then more tactical and
> mobile at least. At this point, Buu had just tangled with a fused SSJ3 in
> Gotenks. SSJ3 Gotenks sparred well with Buu, but again failed to take advantage
> of opportunities to finish off Buu, and even if he was given such
> opportunities, he wouldn't be able to destroy Buu.
>
> When Gohan makes it on the scene after Gotenks had de-fused, he wipes the floor
> with Buu like no one has done before. Gohan has the advantage in speed, power,
> agility, strength, everything. Buu is forced to result to staging a
> self-explosion, as he is trying to buy time to come up with a plan to defeat
> Gohan, whom he knows has a huge advantage.
How SSJ3 Goku would have performed against Super Buu is not known.
Adnan
ilmaestro
proclaimed:
>Freezer wrote:
>>
>> If I don't respond to this Adnan post, the terrorists win.
>>
>> > I'm sure it's been debated before but I was never around to enjoy it so
>> > I was wondering. Who's stronger between SSJ3 Goku and Kaioshin
>> > Powered-up Gohan?
>> >
>> > Adnan
>> >
>>
>> The general consensus in these parts (from what I've observed) is that
>> Mystic Gohan was stronger; the second strongest character in DBZ, in
>> fact, next to Vegitto.
>
>OK, but can I know how you've reached that conclusion? Thanks.
Just a quick off-the-top-of-my-head thing, but their respective fights
with Buu is an obvious starting point. Then maybe something about how
the Cell Games seems to lead us to believe that Gohan is potentially
the strongest of all the 'Z' fighters, and that the 'mystic' power-up
supposedly 'unlocks', for want of a better word, all of that potential
from within Gohan.
--
ilmaestro
"No you don't. But thanks for saying it."
ilmaestro
proclaimed:
>If I don't respond to this post, the terrorists win.
>
>> > Buu reappears, and does his sneaky little trick to absorb Piccolo
>> > and
>> Gotenks.
>>> Enter Buucolotenks ^_^. This is where Gohan stops having the
>>> advantage,
>> but
>>> when forced to fight an unstoppable monster with Piccolo and a
>>> fused SSJ3 inside him, Gohan finally lost.
>>>
>>> If I left anything out, feel free to fill in the blanks.
>>>
>>
>> This is what bothers me with how Buu is ultimatley defeated. If
>> Kid Buu was even more powerfull, how does a Genki Dama, that didn't
>> even work against Freeza and that was apparently the same in size,
>> manage to defeat Kid Buu so easilly? My guess is Toriyama really
>> did create a villain so powerfull, he wrote himself into a corner,
>> and used the only move he hadn't tried yet in order to finally
>> finish him off..
>
>
>If I'm reading things right, the Genki Dama Goku hit Freeza with was
>essentially filled with energy from a dead system. The Genki Dama he
>hit Buu with was filled with energy from the entire population of
>Earth. Presumably that makes a difference.
I think the point is that that makes *all* the difference. Humans
standing up for themselves, and not just being saved by some wacky
spacemen. It's a natural evolution of Yajirobe cutting off Vegita's
tail, or Satan throwing 16's head to Gohan; both brave actions from
regular (ish) humans that had a direct bearing on the saving of the
earth.
Mystic_GohaN
Lucky Devin <devincom...@aol.comwstegate> wrote in message
news:20040223132443...@mb-m21.aol.com...
Who says SSJ3 Gotenks wouldn't have the power to do so?
Anyway, this is simple really. Goku states he and Vegeta together cannot
beat Super Boo 1 (The one Gohan was whooping), while Gohan took on Super Boo
1 with ease.
Adnan
When did Vegeta and Goku fight Super Boo 1? IIRC, Vegeta and Goku fought
Boo after he absorbed Gohan, am I right?
Adnan
Freezer
>> Anyway, this is simple really. Goku states he and Vegeta together
>> cannot beat Super Boo 1 (The one Gohan was whooping), while Gohan
>> took on Super Boo 1 with ease.
>
> When did Vegeta and Goku fight Super Boo 1? IIRC, Vegeta and Goku
> fought Boo after he absorbed Gohan, am I right?
And were whomping on him, until he pulled his transformation trick.
Lucky Devin
wrote:
>When did Vegeta and Goku fight Super Boo 1? IIRC, Vegeta and Goku fought
>Boo after he absorbed Gohan, am I right?
What the hell is Super Boo 1?
Adnan
>
> >Adnan be...@sympatico.ca
> wrote:
>
> >When did Vegeta and Goku fight Super Boo 1? IIRC, Vegeta and Goku fought
> >Boo after he absorbed Gohan, am I right?
>
> What the hell is Super Boo 1?
First form of Super Boo. IOW, Super Boo before he absorbed anyone.
Adnan
Adnan
>
> If I don't respond to this Adnan post, the terrorists win.
>
> >> Anyway, this is simple really. Goku states he and Vegeta together
> >> cannot beat Super Boo 1 (The one Gohan was whooping), while Gohan
> >> took on Super Boo 1 with ease.
> >
> > When did Vegeta and Goku fight Super Boo 1? IIRC, Vegeta and Goku
> > fought Boo after he absorbed Gohan, am I right?
>
> And were whomping on him, until he pulled his transformation trick.
Huh??
Freezer
> Freezer wrote:
>>
>> If I don't respond to this Adnan post, the terrorists win.
>>
>> >> Anyway, this is simple really. Goku states he and Vegeta together
>> >> cannot beat Super Boo 1 (The one Gohan was whooping), while Gohan
>> >> took on Super Boo 1 with ease.
>> >
>> > When did Vegeta and Goku fight Super Boo 1? IIRC, Vegeta and Goku
>> > fought Boo after he absorbed Gohan, am I right?
>>
>> And were whomping on him, until he pulled his transformation trick.
>
> Huh??
Wait... That was wrong. Buu transformed Vegito into candy and was STILL
getting his ass handed to him. That should have read "And were whomping
on him, until he pulled his 'absorbsion blob' trick.
--
(Gomen...)
Adnan
>
> If I don't respond to this Adnan post, the terrorists win.
>
> > Freezer wrote:
> >>
> >> If I don't respond to this Adnan post, the terrorists win.
> >>
> >> >> Anyway, this is simple really. Goku states he and Vegeta together
> >> >> cannot beat Super Boo 1 (The one Gohan was whooping), while Gohan
> >> >> took on Super Boo 1 with ease.
> >> >
> >> > When did Vegeta and Goku fight Super Boo 1? IIRC, Vegeta and Goku
> >> > fought Boo after he absorbed Gohan, am I right?
> >>
> >> And were whomping on him, until he pulled his transformation trick.
> >
> > Huh??
>
> Wait... That was wrong. Buu transformed Vegito into candy and was STILL
> getting his ass handed to him. That should have read "And were whomping
> on him, until he pulled his 'absorbsion blob' trick.
Ok but the debate is not whether Vegitto is stronger than Gohan. It's
whether Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. They're all saying Gohan is
the stronger but I'm trying to find out how they reached this conclusion
since they never fought the same enemy, so there's no way of comparing.
Adnan
Freezer
> Ok but the debate is not whether Vegitto is stronger than Gohan.
> It's whether Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. They're all saying
> Gohan is the stronger but I'm trying to find out how they reached
> this conclusion since they never fought the same enemy, so there's
> no way of comparing.
Technically, they did fight the same opponent: Buu's still Buu whether
he's tall and evil, fat and childlike, or short and insane. Goku fought
the second weakest form of Buu*, but lacked the power to finish him off.
Gohan fought a stronger, smarter version of Buu and was slapping him
around at will, until Buu played on that old DBZ standby: The Good Guys
are Stupid. Therefore you can infer that Mystic Gohan was the stronger
of the two.
* I tend to go with the theory that Kid Buu is actually Buu's weakest
form, but makes up for the lack of power with vastly increased speed and
a complete lack of marbles. I certainly don't buy the theory that one can
absorb a Kai and get _weaker..._
--
ilmaestro
proclaimed:
>If I don't respond to this Adnan post, the terrorists win.
>
>
>> Ok but the debate is not whether Vegitto is stronger than Gohan.
>> It's whether Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. They're all saying
>> Gohan is the stronger but I'm trying to find out how they reached
>> this conclusion since they never fought the same enemy, so there's
>> no way of comparing.
>
>
>Technically, they did fight the same opponent: Buu's still Buu whether
>he's tall and evil, fat and childlike, or short and insane. Goku fought
>the second weakest form of Buu*, but lacked the power to finish him off.
>Gohan fought a stronger, smarter version of Buu and was slapping him
>around at will, until Buu played on that old DBZ standby: The Good Guys
>are Stupid. Therefore you can infer that Mystic Gohan was the stronger
>of the two.
>
>
>* I tend to go with the theory that Kid Buu is actually Buu's weakest
>form, but makes up for the lack of power with vastly increased speed and
>a complete lack of marbles. I certainly don't buy the theory that one can
>absorb a Kai and get _weaker..._
I sort of agree with you, but I think the implied reason for his
getting 'weaker' after absorbing fat Kai dude (sorry, can't remember
his proper name) is that he becomes slightly lesss able to tap into
his 'evilness' due to the influence of the benevolent Kai. As Kid Buu,
he has no inhibitions on how ruthless and destructive he can be, so
whilst he may not have as much power within him, he has more power
available to him when he's fighting.
Rachel Oliver
> * I tend to go with the theory that Kid Buu is actually Buu's weakest
> form, but makes up for the lack of power with vastly increased speed and
> a complete lack of marbles. I certainly don't buy the theory that one can
> absorb a Kai and get _weaker..._
Not even if Kaioushin actually *says* that absorbing the Daikaioushin
reduced Buu's power?
--
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http://magikarp46.dyndns.org
James Allen Stanfield, 03/19/86-10/01/02
Rest in Peace, Jim, we love you.
Rachel Oliver
> Anyway, this is simple really. Goku states he and Vegeta together cannot
> beat Super Boo 1 (The one Gohan was whooping), while Gohan took on Super Boo
> 1 with ease.
Please tell me exactly where this is stated. I faintly remember it, and
I thought it was when they were inside of Buu, but I can't seem to find
it. I know Gokuu says they have to fuse to win before that, but at that
point, it was Buu + Piccolo + Trunks + Goten + Gohan, and they
definitely needed to fuse to win.
Freezer
> Freezer wrote:
>
>> * I tend to go with the theory that Kid Buu is actually Buu's
>> weakest form, but makes up for the lack of power with vastly
>> increased speed and a complete lack of marbles. I certainly don't
>> buy the theory that one can absorb a Kai and get _weaker..._
>
> Not even if Kaioushin actually *says* that absorbing the
> Daikaioushin reduced Buu's power?
Yes, actually. Especially given Kaioshin's penchant for being flat out
wrong.
--
(Or maybe I'm just being pigheaded about it? But that's my theory and
I'm sticking to it.)
Rachel Oliver
Three days with no AFD, and I come back to another god damned Gokuu vs
Gohan argument. Haha, oh well. Here goes...
When Kid Buu first appears, Kaioushin gives the Old Kaioushin a
flashback explanation, right? Afterwards:
OLD KAIOUSHIN: "So you're saying... The present small Majin Buu was the
first and worst guy..."
KAIOUSHIN: "Yes... Because of the absorbtion, his power dropped, and he
gained a mind... But he has once again returned to his original self...
Absolutely without self-control and mind... An incarnation of evil
itself..."
From this we can gather that absorbing the Daikaioushin not only made
him easier to control, but also weakened him. It's impossible to
calculate if Kid Buu is stronger than Buu with SSJ3 Gotenks or Mystic
Gohan, but we can at least infer that he was stronger than Fat Buu.
Also, Super Buu couldn't have possibly been any stronger than Fat Buu.
As I recall (if I'm wrong, feel free to point it out), no one ever
claims that Buu had gotten stronger after the split/reunion; it is only
mentioned that he is able to sense ki, and just smarter and meaner.
Logically, he couldn't be any stronger, since he's made up of all the
same material.
In conclusion:
Kid Buu > (Fat Buu = Super Buu)
Of course, we never see how Gohan would fare against Kid Buu, nor do we
know exactly how much greater Kid Buu is than the other forms, which
makes things difficult to judge. We do see that SSJ3 Gokuu held up very
well against Kid Buu, until his energy started running out, from which I
gather that they were about even.
What we can compare is this: Mystic Gohan had a clear advantage over
Super Buu. SSJ3 Gokuu was at least even with Fat Buu, and he admittedly
did not go all out, and admittedly did not even attempt to win. Gokuu
later admits that he was able to defeat Fat Buu, in fact, and Gokuu is
not the type of character to make a groundless boast about himself. Both
of them were undoubtedly capable of defeating a Buu of the same
strength, but Gokuu was also capable of beating a Buu of a higher level.
At the very least, SSJ3 Gokuu and Mystic Gohan are fairly even in power.
We never really get to the chance to see full-powered SSJ3 in action
because Gokuu held back while he was dead for multiple reasons, and it
was too hard on his living body the second time, so we don't exactly
know Gokuu's full capabilities. Gohan would certainly have an advantage
because he doesn't have any energy limitations, though.
Overall, I personally tend to lean towards Gokuu being a bit stronger,
but not significantly. The rest of you are free to draw your own
conclusions from this, however.
My most unbiased post on this subject ever, whee!
Shiranui Gen-An
"Rachel Oliver" <magik...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c1jouq$vsf$4...@inuyasha.nonexiste.net...
When was this? In the original manga after he returned back to Kami's tower
Piccolo pointedly asked Gokuu if he would have been able to beat fat Buu
using SSJ3 and he said probably not.
Adnan
Goku tells Vegeta, right before he starts fighting Kid Buu, that he
could have beaten Fat Buu back then.
Adnan
Rachel Oliver
>>>What we can compare is this: Mystic Gohan had a clear advantage over
>>>Super Buu. SSJ3 Gokuu was at least even with Fat Buu, and he admittedly
>>>did not go all out, and admittedly did not even attempt to win. Gokuu
>>>later admits that he was able to defeat Fat Buu, in fact, and Gokuu is
>>>not the type of character to make a groundless boast about himself.
>>
>>When was this? In the original manga after he returned back to Kami's tower
>>Piccolo pointedly asked Gokuu if he would have been able to beat fat Buu
>>using SSJ3 and he said probably not.
>
>
> Goku tells Vegeta, right before he starts fighting Kid Buu, that he
> could have beaten Fat Buu back then.
Yes. Not only that, but the "probably not" line is ALWAYS being taken
out of context. Every single time we have these debates. I didn't
realize it myself, but I read through that part of the story again a few
weeks ago, and so now it's been refreshed in my memory.
PICCOLO: "That Super Saiya-jin 3 from before... If you had gone all out,
you would've been able to beat Majin Buu, wouldn't you? Well, am I wrong?"
GOKUU: "No, well... As far as Majin Buu's strength goes, it's
ridiculous... It probably would've been impossible for me to win, I think."
PICCOLO: "Probably? Why didn't you, of all people, try to fight him to
the end... Because of the energy matter?"
GOKUU: "No... I'm a person who really shouldn't be here anymore. I'm not
supposed to do the fighting. It would be better if the youngsters
somehow settled things. Don't you think something incredible will
probably show up again? This is a dangerous risk, but... But I feel I
should leave everything to those two super genius chibis."
He denies that it's because of the energy, and admits that he didn't go
all out. It's weird and ambiguous, but when the rest is factored in, the
justification that Gokuu thinks he "probably couldn't" looks to be all
that stuff about the boys, and he's not supposed to be there, etc.
Nothing about not being strong enough, and he didn't try his best anyway.
It's kind of funny, though. Gokuu made such a big deal about leaving
everything to Trunks and Goten and teaching them Fusion, and yet Gotenks
turned out to be a useless idiot who just wasted a lot of time. But at
least he was funny.
ilmaestro
<magik...@hotmail.com> proclaimed:
Your argument seems great, right up until this bit, where, despite
stating that Goku was, at best, level with Kid Buu, you then seem to
imply that he could have beaten him. Or am I misinterpreting what you
said?
Rachel Oliver
>>What we can compare is this: Mystic Gohan had a clear advantage over
>>Super Buu. SSJ3 Gokuu was at least even with Fat Buu, and he admittedly
>>did not go all out, and admittedly did not even attempt to win. Gokuu
>>later admits that he was able to defeat Fat Buu, in fact, and Gokuu is
>>not the type of character to make a groundless boast about himself. Both
>>of them were undoubtedly capable of defeating a Buu of the same
>>strength, but Gokuu was also capable of beating a Buu of a higher level.
>
>
> Your argument seems great, right up until this bit, where, despite
> stating that Goku was, at best, level with Kid Buu, you then seem to
> imply that he could have beaten him. Or am I misinterpreting what you
> said?
I suppose I was a bit inconsistent here. I was in the mindframe of
listing who can beat who, and when it came to Gokuu vs Kid Buu, I
thought "oh Gokuu could definitely beat him", though I didn't have
"Gokuu is stronger than him" in mind. Fights in Dragon Ball aren't
always simply one person overpowering the other; with skill, it is fully
possible to defeat someone who is even with you, or even marginally
stronger. So "capable of beating" does not necessarily mean "more
powerful". But Gokuu's skill level is irrelevant to the entire
situation, unless we're going to factor in a scenario where Gokuu and
Gohan actually fight.
I probably should have just said something like "...but Gokuu was also
capable of keeping up with a Buu of a higher level." Actually, anyone
reading my original post after this can consider this a correction.
Mystic_GohaN
Its definitely in the manga. There are so many scans of it floating around.
Anyway Gohan > Gotenks > Goku.
Goku and Vegeta remove their friends. They are excited that Boo has lost
alot of his power. He's now back to the form Gohan dominated. But as they
were going to blast a hole and attempt to leave, Goku says "But wait! No
matter how much he may have returned to normal, even with that, we still
can't beat him. If we leave here, we'll be killed for sure." Goku later on
says the only chance by which they can beat Boo is by fusion. When Goku and
Vegeta fight Super Boo in his body, that=filler. With that being said, since
Goku says he cand Vegeta can't beat Super Boo (one Gohan beat, and Vegeta
pretty much agrees), while Gohan dominated that Boo, and Gotenks dominated
him once he got serious, Gohan > Gotenks > Goku. Its that simple.
About the Boo forms, the strongest to weakest goes like this:
Gohan Boo > Gotenks Boo > Piccolo Boo>= "Buff Boo" > Super Boo > Kid Boo
>/=/< Fat Boo. The reason for the last part is because Fat Boo seems to have
the potential of attaining the power Super Boo had whenever angry. His power
fluctuates to his temper, similar to Gohan. However, if too angry, he expels
his evil, grey form. Kid Boo was stated to be the most dangerous of the
Boo's but not the strongest. Kid Boo fought Southern Kaioshin, the strongest
of the Kaioshin. Its said he gave Kid Boo the most trouble and when he
absorbed him, Kid Boo was stronger. Kid Boo+Southern Kaioshin then absorbed
Grand Kaioshin, which hindered Boo's power.
Its said many times Super Boo > Fat Boo.
Vol 41, page 5: Piccolo: "Haven't you noticed the increase in Majin Boo's
power?
Page 6: Goku: "Is that Boo? Why has his power increased so much?
Page 29: Kuririn: Why don't I get the kids to fight him now?
Piccolo: Have you not noticed? They can't beat him with fusion anymore."
Piccolo also says Boo's body is more suited for fighting when he is coming
towards the lookout. 4 instances which prove Super Boo > Fat Boo.
Rachel Oliver
> Its definitely in the manga. There are so many scans of it floating around.
>
> Anyway Gohan > Gotenks > Goku.
>
> Goku and Vegeta remove their friends. They are excited that Boo has lost
> alot of his power. He's now back to the form Gohan dominated. But as they
> were going to blast a hole and attempt to leave, Goku says "But wait! No
> matter how much he may have returned to normal, even with that, we still
> can't beat him. If we leave here, we'll be killed for sure." Goku later on
> says the only chance by which they can beat Boo is by fusion. When Goku and
> Vegeta fight Super Boo in his body, that=filler.
Ah, yes, I see where you're talking about now. And I know the fight was
filler, because I don't even remember it (the Buu Saga is a rare case
where I've read the manga far more than I've seen the anime). Even so,
it still contradicts other things Gokuu has said, which I pointed out in
my other post. We can still ignore Gokuu's comments about his ability to
beat Buu and go by the way he and Gohan fared in battle, and my point
will still stand.
> With that being said, since
> Goku says he cand Vegeta can't beat Super Boo (one Gohan beat, and Vegeta
> pretty much agrees), while Gohan dominated that Boo, and Gotenks dominated
> him once he got serious, Gohan > Gotenks > Goku. Its that simple.
No it isn't so simple. Leave Gotenks out of this. He was a complete
idiot with very poor fighting skills. All he had was power that he
didn't even properly utilize. He wasted lots of time with stupid
attacks. By the time he got truly serious, SSJ3 ran out.
> About the Boo forms, the strongest to weakest goes like this:
> Gohan Boo > Gotenks Boo > Piccolo Boo>= "Buff Boo" > Super Boo > Kid Boo
>
>>/=/< Fat Boo. The reason for the last part is because Fat Boo seems to have
>
> the potential of attaining the power Super Boo had whenever angry. His power
> fluctuates to his temper, similar to Gohan. However, if too angry, he expels
> his evil, grey form. Kid Boo was stated to be the most dangerous of the
> Boo's but not the strongest. Kid Boo fought Southern Kaioshin, the strongest
> of the Kaioshin. Its said he gave Kid Boo the most trouble and when he
> absorbed him, Kid Boo was stronger. Kid Boo+Southern Kaioshin then absorbed
> Grand Kaioshin, which hindered Boo's power.
Let's have a closer look at the flashback about this.
KAIOUSHIN: "...First, two were killed. North Kaioushin and West
Kaioushin. ...And then, there was the toughest and strongest, South
Kaioushin. ...Somehow he was absorbed by Buu."
OLD KAIOUSHIN: "The huge Majin Buu we just saw?" [Apparently while Buu
is reverting, at one point he's all buff, and resembles the form he had
after absorbing South Kaioushin which is only shown in the anime.]
KAIOUSHIN: "Yes. ...The next one who was absorbed was the fat, but
gentle and mild-mannered Daikaioushin-sama. ...The Majin Buu that Bibidi
created was pure evil. He was a failure that Bibidi himself couldn't
even handle, but once Daikaioushin-sama was absorbed, it seems he became
able to control him."
OLD KAIOUSHIN: "So you're saying... The present small Majin Buu was the
first and worst guy..."
KAIOUSHIN: "Yes... Because of the absorbtion, his power dropped, and he
gained a mind... But he has once again returned to his original self...
Absolutely without self-control and mind... An incarnation of evil
itself..."
The "worst" part is pretty much what you meant about "most dangerous"
(ichiban yakkai), and yes there is no "strongest" specifically stated.
However, I don't see anything about South Kaioushin giving Buu the most
trouble, or anything about Buu getting stronger after absorbing him. I
wouldn't doubt that he did power up some from absorbing South Kaioushin,
but...
When Buu has multiple absorbed people inside of him, he resembles the
dominant one, right? He ends up looking just like Daikaioushin. It's
possible that Daikaioushin completely overwrote whatever South Kaioushin
had given Buu, since he is greater by definition, but that is mere
speculation. What isn't speculation is the fact that Kaioushin made a
point to mention that Buu's power was reduced. Why would he bother to
specifically mention a drop in power if it was just that the two
absorbtions cancelled each other out, or that Buu simply became easier
to control? And actually, that "because of the absorbtion" part was
"kyuushuu ni yotte", which could also be plural, "because of the
absorbtions".
> Its said many times Super Boo > Fat Boo.
Heh, I don't know what version you cited, but your page numbers were
slightly off. 5 is the "story up until now" page, and 6 is the mokuji.
> Vol 41, page 5: Piccolo: "Haven't you noticed the increase in Majin Boo's
> power?
"Kizukan? Majin Buu no ki no henka ni..." = "Haven't you noticed? The
change in Majin Buu's ki..."
It changed because he became a completely different person. A power up
is not implied.
> Page 6: Goku: "Is that Boo? Why has his power increased so much?
"Majin Buu daro? Kono ki wa... dou iu koto da?" = "Is that Majin Buu?
His ki... what's up with it?"
Again, his ki changed because he's a different person entirely. It's
just a complete restructuring of the previous person, and no new
material is added to increase his power at all.
> Page 29: Kuririn: Why don't I get the kids to fight him now?
> Piccolo: Have you not noticed? They can't beat him with fusion anymore."
"Wakaranakatta ka...! Ima no mama de wa, ikura fyuujon o shite mo,
machigainaku kate wa sen...!" = "Don't you understand! As it is now, no
matter how much they use Fusion, they undoubtedly could not win...!"
There is nothing implying "anymore". Even before the split, Piccolo had
wanted them to train more to make the Fusion more effective. They did
already lose to Fat Buu once. The events of the battle were only shown
in the anime, but Gotenks still left and immediately came back bruised
up in the manga.
> Piccolo also says Boo's body is more suited for fighting when he is coming
> towards the lookout. 4 instances which prove Super Boo > Fat Boo.
Yes, but being more suited for fighting does not make you more powerful.
Skill != Power. If that were the case, Freeza would've beaten Gokuu long
before he could ever become SSJ.
Mystic_GohaN
> Mystic_GohaN wrote:
>
> > Its definitely in the manga. There are so many scans of it floating
around.
> >
> > Anyway Gohan > Gotenks > Goku.
> >
> > Goku and Vegeta remove their friends. They are excited that Boo has lost
> > alot of his power. He's now back to the form Gohan dominated. But as
they
> > were going to blast a hole and attempt to leave, Goku says "But wait! No
> > matter how much he may have returned to normal, even with that, we still
> > can't beat him. If we leave here, we'll be killed for sure." Goku later
on
> > says the only chance by which they can beat Boo is by fusion. When Goku
and
> > Vegeta fight Super Boo in his body, that=filler.
>
> Ah, yes, I see where you're talking about now. And I know the fight was
> filler, because I don't even remember it (the Buu Saga is a rare case
> where I've read the manga far more than I've seen the anime). Even so,
> it still contradicts other things Gokuu has said, which I pointed out in
> my other post.
Like what? He stated he can't beat Super Boo 1 unless they fuse, means he
simply can't.
> > With that being said, since
> > Goku says he cand Vegeta can't beat Super Boo (one Gohan beat, and
Vegeta
> > pretty much agrees), while Gohan dominated that Boo, and Gotenks
dominated
> > him once he got serious, Gohan > Gotenks > Goku. Its that simple.
>
> No it isn't so simple. Leave Gotenks out of this. He was a complete
> idiot with very poor fighting skills. All he had was power that he
> didn't even properly utilize. He wasted lots of time with stupid
> attacks. By the time he got truly serious, SSJ3 ran out.
Your opinion of Gotenks is irrelevant. The point is, he dominated Super Boo
once he got serious, but Goku on the other hand is scared shitless to even
fight Super Boo WITH Vegeta's help.
Okay, remember how Oldman Kaioshin says "Thats the version of Boo we saw
earlier?" Rewind back to when Goku and Vegeta saw this "Buff Boo." They
mention he's getting stronger and look worried. So that means Kid
Boo+Southern Kaioshin > Kid Boo.
> When Buu has multiple absorbed people inside of him, he resembles the
> dominant one, right? He ends up looking just like Daikaioushin. It's
> possible that Daikaioushin completely overwrote whatever South Kaioushin
> had given Buu, since he is greater by definition, but that is mere
> speculation. What isn't speculation is the fact that Kaioushin made a
> point to mention that Buu's power was reduced. Why would he bother to
> specifically mention a drop in power if it was just that the two
> absorbtions cancelled each other out, or that Buu simply became easier
> to control? And actually, that "because of the absorbtion" part was
> "kyuushuu ni yotte", which could also be plural, "because of the
> absorbtions".
I've already proven that Southern Kaioshin+Kid Boo > Kid Boo.
> > Its said many times Super Boo > Fat Boo.
>
> Heh, I don't know what version you cited, but your page numbers were
> slightly off. 5 is the "story up until now" page, and 6 is the mokuji.
>
> > Vol 41, page 5: Piccolo: "Haven't you noticed the increase in Majin
Boo's
> > power?
>
> "Kizukan? Majin Buu no ki no henka ni..." = "Haven't you noticed? The
> change in Majin Buu's ki..."
>
> It changed because he became a completely different person. A power up
> is not implied.
The version I'm refering to is the Italian manga, translated by an official
company named Star Comics. I'll take a companies translation over someone on
a newsgroup anyday, no offense to you of course.
Also, Goku says "This ki is enourmous! What in the world is happening?" If
Fat Boo wasn't weaker than Super Boo, there's no reason for Goku to say
"This ki is enormous" and "What in the world is happening" since, according
to you, they are the same in power. But he says the ki is enormous, showing
us that Majin Boo's power had to have increased. If it were the same,
there'd be no need for his comment.
And if you're implying there is no change in Boo's power when Evil Boo
absorbs Fat Boo, then you must be smoking something. There's no reason
Piccolo and everyone else would be so scared now that the evil boo absorbed
him unless he was stronger. If he was the same person with no advantages
over the previous Boo, why were they so frightened now that he transformed?
> Yes, but being more suited for fighting does not make you more powerful.
> Skill != Power. If that were the case, Freeza would've beaten Gokuu long
> before he could ever become SSJ.
Uhh I don't get what you mean.
Freezer
>> No it isn't so simple. Leave Gotenks out of this. He was a complete
>> idiot with very poor fighting skills. All he had was power that he
>> didn't even properly utilize. He wasted lots of time with stupid
>> attacks. By the time he got truly serious, SSJ3 ran out.
>
> Your opinion of Gotenks is irrelevant. The point is, he dominated
> Super Boo once he got serious, but Goku on the other hand is scared
> shitless to even fight Super Boo WITH Vegeta's help.
"Dominated?" I have to agree with Rachel: Gotenks wasted unforgivable
amounts of time with childish "cool" attacks - most of which (except
the Ghost Kamakaze) Buu shrugged off immediately.
Buu had already escaped by the time Gotenks decided to use his full
power. (And ohbytheway Buu killed the rest of their family and friends
in the meantime.)
And power vs. skill/wits is NOT irrelevant: it's a theme that crops up
again and again in DBZ.
- Goku was clearly stronger than Vegeta during their initial fight, but
Vegeta was far more experienced and countered everything Goku threw at
him.
- Cell was outclassed at nearly every turn, but relied on guile and
sneakiness to survive.
- During the Otherworld Tournament, Goku used Pikkon's overconfidence
against him to counter his ultimate attack.
But that's just one man view.
--
Mystic_GohaN
Freezer <free...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns949BB6A20C3F5f...@130.133.1.4...
> If I don't respond to this Mystic_GohaN post, the terrorists win.
>
> >> No it isn't so simple. Leave Gotenks out of this. He was a complete
> >> idiot with very poor fighting skills. All he had was power that he
> >> didn't even properly utilize. He wasted lots of time with stupid
> >> attacks. By the time he got truly serious, SSJ3 ran out.
> >
> > Your opinion of Gotenks is irrelevant. The point is, he dominated
> > Super Boo once he got serious, but Goku on the other hand is scared
> > shitless to even fight Super Boo WITH Vegeta's help.
>
> "Dominated?" I have to agree with Rachel: Gotenks wasted unforgivable
> amounts of time with childish "cool" attacks - most of which (except
> the Ghost Kamakaze) Buu shrugged off immediately.
>
> Buu had already escaped by the time Gotenks decided to use his full
> power. (And ohbytheway Buu killed the rest of their family and friends
> in the meantime.)
What are you talking about? Go watch the anime or read the manga over. When
Gotenks got serious, he WHOOPS on Boo. Its blatantly clear.
> And power vs. skill/wits is NOT irrelevant: it's a theme that crops up
> again and again in DBZ.
>
> - Goku was clearly stronger than Vegeta during their initial fight, but
> Vegeta was far more experienced and countered everything Goku threw at
> him.
What are you talking about? Goku states "Vegeta, here I thought I trained in
Otherworld alot, yet, we are completely even." Where are you getting this
skill and experience nonsense from? If you're refering to their first fight,
thats bull, because Base Goku was only at a battle power of 8,000 while
Vegeta's was said to be 18,000 I believe. It wasn't until Goku used Kaioken
which let him whoop Vegeta. And Goku's level was going from 19,000 to 21,000
then Bulma's scouter broke.
> - Cell was outclassed at nearly every turn, but relied on guile and
> sneakiness to survive.
I don't see any relevance in this. What are you saying? Its not like when
Cell fought people 1 on 1, he was able to beat them even though he was
infininetly weaker. SSJ2 Gohan dominated Cell, but Cell self destructed.
What does this have to do with fighting skill? You're bringing up irrelevant
information.
> - During the Otherworld Tournament, Goku used Pikkon's overconfidence
> against him to counter his ultimate attack.
Uhh, Annoyachi (sp?) Tournament=filler meaning its not factual.
Mystic_GohaN
Mystic_GohaN <sm...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:K%v%b.50873$um1....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Bleh I wanted to add this. Anyway, there are instances which have shown that
characters can be stupid in not finishing their opponent off, i.e. SSJ2
Gohan and Cell. But regardless, SSJ2 Gohan is still stronger than Cell. If
experience was a huge issue in DBZ, that means Muten Roshi > SSJ3 Gotenks
since Gotenks has NO experience in fighting whatsoever, but Muten Roshi is
hailed as the god of martial arts.
Rachel Oliver
> Like what? He stated he can't beat Super Boo 1 unless they fuse, means he
> simply can't.
But he also says that he could have beaten Fat Buu, who was equal in
strength to Super Buu. You haven't given me any sufficient evidence to
prove otherwise. Since this is the case, those two lines of dialogue
would cancel each other out.
> Your opinion of Gotenks is irrelevant. The point is, he dominated Super Boo
> once he got serious, but Goku on the other hand is scared shitless to even
> fight Super Boo WITH Vegeta's help.
Freezer already touched on this well. It's not my opinion; I actually
think Gotenks is hilarious, and I love all of his crazy attacks. But,
objectively, he wasted a lot of time, and didn't come close to
"dominating" Buu until the very end of the fight.
> Okay, remember how Oldman Kaioshin says "Thats the version of Boo we saw
> earlier?" Rewind back to when Goku and Vegeta saw this "Buff Boo." They
> mention he's getting stronger and look worried. So that means Kid
> Boo+Southern Kaioshin > Kid Boo.
If you paid attention, I didn't deny that he would have gained some
power from that absorbtion. I just said that the absorbtion of
Daikaioushin (who was obviously the more dominant one) reduced Buu's
power. If it reduced Buu's power to the point that it simply cancelled
out the absorbtion of South Kaioushin, what would be the point of
mentioning it?
Also, in that example you give of Gokuu and Vegeta saying he's getting
stronger: He doesn't turn back into "Buff Buu". He's obviously just
reverting to Kid Buu. Why would he suddenly become Buu+South Kaioushin
again? That makes no sense at all. He just happens to briefly resemble
that form while he's transforming. There is one instance of Vegeta
saying that Buu's ki is increasing during the transformation into Kid
Buu, so you've just further proven my point about Kid Buu being stronger.
> The version I'm refering to is the Italian manga, translated by an official
> company named Star Comics. I'll take a companies translation over someone on
> a newsgroup anyday, no offense to you of course.
Yes, well, official companies are usually out to make a profit, and
perfect accuracy is not usually their highest priority. Why do you think
dub quotes always get thrown out in these arguments? (Most things aren't
as bad as FUNi's dub, though.)
If you want, I'll type up Steve's official subtitle translations from
the DVDs for the lines I quoted, but I don't have time to do it at the
moment.
> Also, Goku says "This ki is enourmous! What in the world is happening?" If
> Fat Boo wasn't weaker than Super Boo, there's no reason for Goku to say
> "This ki is enormous" and "What in the world is happening" since, according
> to you, they are the same in power. But he says the ki is enormous, showing
> us that Majin Boo's power had to have increased. If it were the same,
> there'd be no need for his comment.
When is this?
> And if you're implying there is no change in Boo's power when Evil Boo
> absorbs Fat Boo, then you must be smoking something. There's no reason
> Piccolo and everyone else would be so scared now that the evil boo absorbed
> him unless he was stronger. If he was the same person with no advantages
> over the previous Boo, why were they so frightened now that he transformed?
I guess I must be smoking something, then, because that's what I've been
saying all along. There is nothing to prove that Buu got any stronger.
Additionally, he split himself, and then absorbed himself. It's all the
same material, just completely reorganized. It's like when you have
dough shaped one way, but if you take it apart and then mix it together
again and mold it into a different shape, isn't that still the same
amount of dough?
> Uhh I don't get what you mean.
Freezer also explained this well. A person can't win by power alone if
they fight another person with considerable skill. The difference in
power between Mutenroushi and Gotenks that you mentioned is TOO great,
but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Mutenroushi did find some way to
win.
Mystic_GohaN
1. Super Boo and Fat Boo are not equal. If they are, explain to me why
everyone was shocked that Boo transformed? Why on earth would they be
shocked if Boo hadn't increase his power.
2. Okay, check your manga. As I said, when Gotenks got SERIOUS, notice who
was winning. Super Boo couldn't even TOUCH Gotenks. Go check the manga. I
believe Gotenks gets knocked into a building. He then says "Okay. You're
pissing me off. Time go get serious." Ever since that point, Boo is
receiving repetitive punches from Gotenks and is clearly being completely
dominated. If you say otherwise, your in denial. My whole point is that once
Gotenks is serious, hes stronger than Super Boo and its shown in both anime
and manga.
3. Vegeta and Goku NEVER state Kid Boo was getting stronger. That Boo which
Vegeta and Goku said was getting stronger WAS Buff Boo. This is stated. "So
that large Boo we saw earlier was that one then?" (refering to Kaioshin's
comments about Southern Kaioshin being absorbed). Kaioshin says "Yes." When
Goku and Vegeta see that Boo, they say his power is increasing. Thats Buff
Boo. Shortly after, Boo reduces to that Kid form and Goku and Vegeta are
happy as hell. Why he reverts to Buff Boo isn't explained but its stated
that was the "buff Boo." You can't argue it.
4. Go right ahead (in regards to Steve's translations). Thats primarily
where I've been getting my dialogue from and some from the Italian manga.
5. In DB, there has never been a time where someone more powerful lost a
battle because of skill. NEVER. SSJ2 Gohan still ended up beating Cell,
Goku still ended up beating Kid Boo, even though he could have ad FP SSJ3,
etc. Even SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku's battle never reached a conclusion
since they were equal (stated). Also note, when I mean "lose a battle", I'm
refering to killing the opponent, not something ridiculous as a ring out at
a tournament. Never in DB has someone been killed by someone inferior in
strength 1 on 1.
6. Like I've said, its plainly obvious Fat Boo does not equal Super Boo. If
they were equal, why was Piccolo so terrified that they transformed? Why was
EVERYONE panicking about Boo's new form if it wasn't stronger than Fat Boo's
form? This isn't too difficult to figure out. If Boo didn't get stronger, no
one would have panicked over his transformation. Instead, Piccolo is saying
"this is bad" etc.
Mystic_GohaN
I wish there were some way to edit posts or something. Anyway, here's even
more evidence.
We both know Piccolo is fully aware of Fat Boo's power since he witnessed
him fighting Kaioshin and Vegeta. When Super Boo is on the lookout, Piccolo
tells Kuririn to wake the boys up and bring them to the room of spirit and
time and in there, they will train. Kuririn says "Eh? Why don't you have
them fight now." Piccolo says "Because I wasn't aware of that guys power. In
his current state, the kids can't beat him, even with fusion." The above
obviously means Piccolo wasn't aware Super Boo was this powerful. He had
seen Fat Boo, EVEN ANGRY, fight, so he knew his power. But he says he wasn't
aware of Super Boo's power. If they were equal, he wouldn't have said that,
since he already knows Fat Boo's battle power.
Rachel Oliver
> 1. Super Boo and Fat Boo are not equal. If they are, explain to me why
> everyone was shocked that Boo transformed? Why on earth would they be
> shocked if Boo hadn't increase his power.
Uhh, because he was meaner and smarter and a better fighter? He became
able to sense ki. With this ability to sense ki, he was able to find
their cozy little hiding spot in the sky, and interrupt Trunks and
Goten's incomplete training. This was an unexpected turn of events,
hence shock!
> 2. Okay, check your manga. As I said, when Gotenks got SERIOUS, notice who
> was winning. Super Boo couldn't even TOUCH Gotenks. Go check the manga. I
> believe Gotenks gets knocked into a building. He then says "Okay. You're
> pissing me off. Time go get serious." Ever since that point, Boo is
> receiving repetitive punches from Gotenks and is clearly being completely
> dominated. If you say otherwise, your in denial. My whole point is that once
> Gotenks is serious, hes stronger than Super Boo and its shown in both anime
> and manga.
I don't have to recheck; I know exactly where you're talking about.
Gotenks was obviously winning about the time they were fighting in the
city. As I said, Gotenks got serious near the end, and he looked as
though he was about to do even better when SSJ3 inconveniently ran out.
But for the majority of the battle, he did waste time with stupid
attacks, and he might not have lost SSJ3 at such an inconvenient moment
had he gotten serious sooner.
Anyway, what does this prove? It still has nothing to do with Gohan or
Gokuu.
> 3. Vegeta and Goku NEVER state Kid Boo was getting stronger. That Boo which
> Vegeta and Goku said was getting stronger WAS Buff Boo. This is stated. "So
> that large Boo we saw earlier was that one then?" (refering to Kaioshin's
> comments about Southern Kaioshin being absorbed). Kaioshin says "Yes." When
> Goku and Vegeta see that Boo, they say his power is increasing. Thats Buff
> Boo. Shortly after, Boo reduces to that Kid form and Goku and Vegeta are
> happy as hell. Why he reverts to Buff Boo isn't explained but its stated
> that was the "buff Boo." You can't argue it.
Yes I can, and I will. I know what the Old Kaioushin stated about the
"huge Buu from before", but I don't believe that it is even possible for
him to have truly become that "Buff Buu". Why would he suddenly become
"Buff Buu", and then while "Buff Buu" is standing there groaning and
NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS, transform again into "Kid Buu"? You're relying on
a plothole.
The fact is, when Fat Buu was freed, that triggered his transformation
into Kid Buu, yes? For him to revert all the way back to his original
"kid" form, we have to assume that South Kaioushin was bundled up with
Daikaioushin with Fat Buu, or else he never would have gone back to his
original form. But his regression was not instantaneous. As his body
went through the transformation, it likely went backwards in stages,
rather than directly from Super to Kid. But even if he temporarily
looked exactly like Buff Buu, he could not logically have been Buff Buu
with that same power, because the source of said power was *not there*.
Gokuu and Vegeta's "his ki is increasing" comment would then have to be
in reference to the pure absorption-less Kid Buu. Otherwise, why
wouldn't they mention that he's getting weaker once he shrinks?
> 4. Go right ahead (in regards to Steve's translations). Thats primarily
> where I've been getting my dialogue from and some from the Italian manga.
"Kizukan? Majin Buu no ki no henka ni..." = "Haven't you noticed? The
change in Majin Buu's ki..."
Well, this line is totally skipped in the anime. It goes straight from
Kuririn asking what's wrong to Piccolo explaining that he's transformed
and it's the fault of stupid Earthlings --both of which are worded
slightly different in the anime.
"Majin Buu daro? Kono ki wa... dou iu koto da?" = "Is that Majin Buu?
His ki... what's up with it?"
Well wtf, instead of this line, Gokuu says, "Dekkee ki da. Ittee dou iu
koto da?"
"Wakaranakatta ka...! Ima no mama de wa, ikura fyuujon o shite mo,
machigainaku kate wa sen...!" = "Don't you understand! As it is now, no
matter how much they use Fusion, they undoubtedly could not win...!"
Well fuck. Toei has screwed me over three times. It probably looks like
a weak excuse from my end, haha. I mean, this is beyond unbelievable.
What makes it worse is that there is likely no one reading this thread
who 1) knows a decent amount of Japanese, 2) has the Japanese edition of
Book 41, and 3) has the "Fusion - Evil Buu" DVD. Otherwise, the only way
to present absolute proof is to take audio clips of the anime, scans of
the manga, and somehow show that they're not saying the same things. But
it's really not worth all of that trouble to me, because I know I've
already made the points I wanted to make.
If you really refuse to believe me that the anime has skipped these
particular points of dialogue, and that the Italian translation was not
completely faithful, then there is no point in my arguing any further.
I'm not so petty as to LIE to win an argument on Usenet about which of
two comic characters is the strongest, and an accusation of such is
something I won't even bother attempting to defend.
> 5. In DB, there has never been a time where someone more powerful lost a
> battle because of skill. NEVER. SSJ2 Gohan still ended up beating Cell,
> Goku still ended up beating Kid Boo, even though he could have ad FP SSJ3,
> etc. Even SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku's battle never reached a conclusion
> since they were equal (stated). Also note, when I mean "lose a battle", I'm
> refering to killing the opponent, not something ridiculous as a ring out at
> a tournament. Never in DB has someone been killed by someone inferior in
> strength 1 on 1.
It's after 4 AM, and off the top of my head, I can't think of any
examples of a skilled person killing a stronger person. But I know it's
there. Anyway, it's still irrelevant. My point was that Super Buu was
merely better at fighting, and that is not the same as having more
power. Skill and power are two entirely different things.
> 6. Like I've said, its plainly obvious Fat Boo does not equal Super Boo. If
> they were equal, why was Piccolo so terrified that they transformed? Why was
> EVERYONE panicking about Boo's new form if it wasn't stronger than Fat Boo's
> form? This isn't too difficult to figure out. If Boo didn't get stronger, no
> one would have panicked over his transformation. Instead, Piccolo is saying
> "this is bad" etc.
I told you, he got a lot smarter and meaner, and he was able to sense
their ki and FIND them when they weren't yet ready to fight back.
> We both know Piccolo is fully aware of Fat Boo's power since he witnessed
> him fighting Kaioshin and Vegeta. When Super Boo is on the lookout, Piccolo
> tells Kuririn to wake the boys up and bring them to the room of spirit and
> time and in there, they will train. Kuririn says "Eh? Why don't you have
> them fight now." Piccolo says "Because I wasn't aware of that guys power. In
> his current state, the kids can't beat him, even with fusion." The above
> obviously means Piccolo wasn't aware Super Boo was this powerful. He had
> seen Fat Boo, EVEN ANGRY, fight, so he knew his power. But he says he wasn't
> aware of Super Boo's power. If they were equal, he wouldn't have said that,
> since he already knows Fat Boo's battle power.
...We have a case of really bad translation here. "Because I wasn't
aware of that guys power. In his current state, the kids can't beat him,
even with fusion." This corresponds to one of the lines from earlier,
"Wakaranakatta ka...! Ima no mama de wa, ikura fyuujon o shite mo,
machigainaku kate wa sen...!" The latter sentence is done okay, but the
first sentence is all wrong.
'Wakaranakatta' is the past tense negative form of 'wakaru', which means
to understand. Literally, this would be 'it is not understood'. 'Because
I wasn't aware' could correspond to the 'not understood' portion, and
the 'that guy's power' part is just adlibbed. However, because of 'ka',
that sentence becomes a question. Since he was obviously talking to
Kuririn, he was literaly asking Kuririn, "Is it not understood by you?"
In essence, Piccolo does not say he was unaware of Buu's power. The fact
that they were presently unable to defeat Super Buu with Fusion still
proves nothing, because, as I've said, it was the same very case with
Fat Buu.
> Also, Goku says "This ki is enourmous! What in the world is happening?" If
> Fat Boo wasn't weaker than Super Boo, there's no reason for Goku to say
> "This ki is enormous" and "What in the world is happening" since, according
> to you, they are the same in power. But he says the ki is enormous, showing
> us that Majin Boo's power had to have increased. If it were the same,
> there'd be no need for his comment.
That line would be the subs for "Dekkee ki da. Ittee dou iu koto da?" As
I said before, that line happened to be changed from its manga version.
FILLER.
Freezer
>> 5. In DB, there has never been a time where someone more powerful
>> lost a battle because of skill. NEVER. SSJ2 Gohan still ended up
>> beating Cell, Goku still ended up beating Kid Boo, even though he
>> could have ad FP SSJ3, etc. Even SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku's battle
>> never reached a conclusion since they were equal (stated). Also
>> note, when I mean "lose a battle", I'm refering to killing the
>> opponent, not something ridiculous as a ring out at a tournament.
>> Never in DB has someone been killed by someone inferior in strength
>> 1 on 1.
>
> It's after 4 AM, and off the top of my head, I can't think of any
> examples of a skilled person killing a stronger person. But I know
> it's there. Anyway, it's still irrelevant. My point was that Super
> Buu was merely better at fighting, and that is not the same as
> having more power. Skill and power are two entirely different
> things.
There's an "almost" here. Technically, Mirai Trunks with his Imperfect
SSJ2 transformation was much stronger than Perfect Cell, but since Cell
was much faster, he had Trunks at his mercy and WOULD have killed him
had he not let his ego take over.
--
(Or does Cell's speed advantage factor into overall "strength?")
Adnan
>
> If I don't respond to this Rachel Oliver post, the terrorists win.
>
> >> 5. In DB, there has never been a time where someone more powerful
> >> lost a battle because of skill. NEVER. SSJ2 Gohan still ended up
> >> beating Cell, Goku still ended up beating Kid Boo, even though he
> >> could have ad FP SSJ3, etc. Even SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku's battle
> >> never reached a conclusion since they were equal (stated). Also
> >> note, when I mean "lose a battle", I'm refering to killing the
> >> opponent, not something ridiculous as a ring out at a tournament.
> >> Never in DB has someone been killed by someone inferior in strength
> >> 1 on 1.
> >
> > It's after 4 AM, and off the top of my head, I can't think of any
> > examples of a skilled person killing a stronger person. But I know
> > it's there. Anyway, it's still irrelevant. My point was that Super
> > Buu was merely better at fighting, and that is not the same as
> > having more power. Skill and power are two entirely different
> > things.
>
> There's an "almost" here. Technically, Mirai Trunks with his Imperfect
> SSJ2 transformation was much stronger than Perfect Cell, but since Cell
> was much faster, he had Trunks at his mercy and WOULD have killed him
> had he not let his ego take over.
Not skill. Speed.
Mystic_GohaN
> Mystic_GohaN wrote:
>
> > 1. Super Boo and Fat Boo are not equal. If they are, explain to me why
> > everyone was shocked that Boo transformed? Why on earth would they be
> > shocked if Boo hadn't increase his power.
>
> Uhh, because he was meaner and smarter and a better fighter? He became
> able to sense ki. With this ability to sense ki, he was able to find
> their cozy little hiding spot in the sky, and interrupt Trunks and
> Goten's incomplete training. This was an unexpected turn of events,
> hence shock!
So why would Goku be so concerned over his transformation if he was only a
"better fighter"? How on earth would Goku even KNOW if he's a better fighter
without seeing him first hand?
> > 2. Okay, check your manga. As I said, when Gotenks got SERIOUS, notice
who
> > was winning. Super Boo couldn't even TOUCH Gotenks. Go check the manga.
I
> > believe Gotenks gets knocked into a building. He then says "Okay. You're
> > pissing me off. Time go get serious." Ever since that point, Boo is
> > receiving repetitive punches from Gotenks and is clearly being
completely
> > dominated. If you say otherwise, your in denial. My whole point is that
once
> > Gotenks is serious, hes stronger than Super Boo and its shown in both
anime
> > and manga.
>
> I don't have to recheck; I know exactly where you're talking about.
> Gotenks was obviously winning about the time they were fighting in the
> city. As I said, Gotenks got serious near the end, and he looked as
> though he was about to do even better when SSJ3 inconveniently ran out.
> But for the majority of the battle, he did waste time with stupid
> attacks, and he might not have lost SSJ3 at such an inconvenient moment
> had he gotten serious sooner.
My point was that when Gotenks is serious, he can topple Super Boo, which he
did.
> Anyway, what does this prove? It still has nothing to do with Gohan or
> Gokuu.
>
> > 3. Vegeta and Goku NEVER state Kid Boo was getting stronger. That Boo
which
> > Vegeta and Goku said was getting stronger WAS Buff Boo. This is stated.
"So
> > that large Boo we saw earlier was that one then?" (refering to
Kaioshin's
> > comments about Southern Kaioshin being absorbed). Kaioshin says "Yes."
When
> > Goku and Vegeta see that Boo, they say his power is increasing. Thats
Buff
> > Boo. Shortly after, Boo reduces to that Kid form and Goku and Vegeta are
> > happy as hell. Why he reverts to Buff Boo isn't explained but its stated
> > that was the "buff Boo." You can't argue it.
>
> Yes I can, and I will. I know what the Old Kaioushin stated about the
> "huge Buu from before", but I don't believe that it is even possible for
> him to have truly become that "Buff Buu". Why would he suddenly become
> "Buff Buu", and then while "Buff Buu" is standing there groaning and
> NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS, transform again into "Kid Buu"? You're relying on
> a plothole.
It doesn't matter. They state that the huge Boo is the one Southern Kaioshin
absorbed. When that Boo reverted to that form, thats when Vegeta and Goku
say "Hey isn't his ki rising?" Then when he FULLY reverts to Kid Boo, they
both say "Oh man, he's so small now. We can take him." Had it only been
Vegeta saying this, it could be overlooked. But Goku is well aware that size
means nothing in the power of your opponent. If Kid Boo didn't get weaker,
why was Goku so happy all of a sudden that he wasn't Buff Boo anymore? That
obviously means he got weaker. Otherwise Goku wouldn't be so happy. Goku is
known to always know the strength of his opponent and such, so he wouldn't
be happy unless when Kid Boo shrunk, he got weaker. Vegeta on the otherhand
is known to be arrogant. Like he said about Cell's perfect form: "Heh its
not that great. He's even smaller than before." Goku on the other hand knows
size has nothing to do with it. When they see Buff Boo, they are scared
saying his power is rising. When he reverts to Kid Boo, they are happy as
hell. This means Buff Boo > Kid Boo.
> The fact is, when Fat Buu was freed, that triggered his transformation
> into Kid Buu, yes? For him to revert all the way back to his original
> "kid" form, we have to assume that South Kaioushin was bundled up with
> Daikaioushin with Fat Buu, or else he never would have gone back to his
> original form. But his regression was not instantaneous. As his body
> went through the transformation, it likely went backwards in stages,
> rather than directly from Super to Kid. But even if he temporarily
> looked exactly like Buff Buu, he could not logically have been Buff Buu
> with that same power, because the source of said power was *not there*.
> Gokuu and Vegeta's "his ki is increasing" comment would then have to be
> in reference to the pure absorption-less Kid Buu. Otherwise, why
> wouldn't they mention that he's getting weaker once he shrinks?
Here's the official translation from Mr Simmons DVD's. The manga I've come
across has similar translation as well: *Boo changes to Buff Boo* Goku: He's
turning into something quite tough ain't he? Vegeta: N-no. Wait. he's still
intent on transforming. *Boo transforms again into the kid boo* Vegeta:
He's shrunk down quite a bit Goku: *laughing* Hehe. We did it Vegeta! We
can manage this* You're only argument is why Kid Boo would revert to Buff
Boo. Do that in another topic. Its not my fault they state he was Buff Boo
in the manga. So like I said, Goku is overwhelemed with joy now that Kid Boo
transformed into that Kid state. Prior to that he was extremely scared. If
they had the same power, there's no reason for Goku to be so happy.
Here's more proof of Super Boo > Fat Boo.
4)Manga 41 page 35
Piccolo:"Not only the physical aspect,but everthing is increased in him..."
Anyway, there's never been a time where two people had the same power but
their skill caused the Z Warriors to panic. NEVER. Its always been because
of an increase in power. And Goku states several times that they can't beat
Super Boo unless they fuse. You said it was only once so it negates the
other time he said he could beat Fat Boo. But when Super Boo shows up inside
his body, Vegeta says "Dammit, this is bad." Goku says "Thats why I told you
to keep the potara. If we could merge, this guy would be easy to beat." More
evidence: you're well aware that the fight with Vegeta and Goku in Super
Boo's body is filler right. Well right after Goku attempts to make a hole in
Boo's body, Vegeta quickly threatens to rip the other Boo out. Now, in the
anime, they said something about Boo can't be hurt in his body but thats
filler. Meaning in the manga, they would still think they could damage Boo
inside his body. If they could have beaten him, they would have attempted to
destroy him. Instead, Vegeta quickly runs to Fat Boo, knowing that taking
away those he's absorbed has caused him to weaken before.
> --
> -The Ayatollah of Coca-Cola, FKA Triple Rach
> http://magikarp46.dyndns.org
>
> James Allen Stanfield, 03/19/86-10/01/02
> Rest in Peace, Jim, we love you.
About Cell and Trunks, when I say power, I'm not talking about just the
strength in your blows. I'm talking about overall strength. There's never an
instance 1 on 1 where someone's overall strength was greater than anothers
has lost. NEVER. They've always been much stronger than the opponent. Skill
has NEVER been a factor in one on one battles in DBZ to the death. NEVER.
Anyway, lemme just sum up the above: You (Rachel) said the comment about Fat
Boo negated his comment about Super Boo. However, he says more than one
comment. He says "We can't beat him no matter how much he's returned to
normal." Then a couple panals later, he says "But there is ONE method by
which we can win." Then later on, Boo shows up in his body and Vegeta is
scared saying "this is bad" which makes no sense if like you said, they
could take him. After saying "this is bad" goku says "This is why i told you
to keep the potara. If you did, we could easily beat this guy." 1 comment
can't negate 3. Therefore Goku+Vegeta < Super Boo.
No offense, but I can't really consider you that reliable Rachel because I
remember a long time ago, you (and a few other people) would insist that
Gohan's "mystic" power only lasted for 20 hours when I continously tried to
tell you that was how long the ceremony was. I'm not sure if you had the
manga back then when you made those claims, but if you did, how can I be
certain what you've given me is accurate? Anyway, check the Piccolo line I
posted above. Its definitely in there.
Rachel Oliver
>>>>5. In DB, there has never been a time where someone more powerful
>>>>lost a battle because of skill. NEVER. SSJ2 Gohan still ended up
>>>>beating Cell, Goku still ended up beating Kid Boo, even though he
>>>>could have ad FP SSJ3, etc. Even SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku's battle
>>>>never reached a conclusion since they were equal (stated). Also
>>>>note, when I mean "lose a battle", I'm refering to killing the
>>>>opponent, not something ridiculous as a ring out at a tournament.
>>>>Never in DB has someone been killed by someone inferior in strength
>>>>1 on 1.
>>>
>>>It's after 4 AM, and off the top of my head, I can't think of any
>>>examples of a skilled person killing a stronger person. But I know
>>>it's there. Anyway, it's still irrelevant. My point was that Super
>>>Buu was merely better at fighting, and that is not the same as
>>>having more power. Skill and power are two entirely different
>>>things.
>>
>>There's an "almost" here. Technically, Mirai Trunks with his Imperfect
>>SSJ2 transformation was much stronger than Perfect Cell, but since Cell
>>was much faster, he had Trunks at his mercy and WOULD have killed him
>>had he not let his ego take over.
>
>
> Not skill. Speed.
True, but Cell was smart enough to notice the speed problem right away,
and take advantage of it without letting Trunks pound the hell out of him.
Rachel Oliver
> No offense, but I can't really consider you that reliable Rachel because I
> remember a long time ago, you (and a few other people) would insist that
> Gohan's "mystic" power only lasted for 20 hours when I continously tried to
> tell you that was how long the ceremony was. I'm not sure if you had the
> manga back then when you made those claims, but if you did, how can I be
> certain what you've given me is accurate? Anyway, check the Piccolo line I
> posted above. Its definitely in there.
As I said in the thread two years ago when this came up, I had
misinterpreted a line in a fan translation, and in looking over the line
in the Japanese version, I saw my mistake, and Matt pointed it out to me
as well when I scanned it for him.
Anyway, this is an Ad Hominem. I made one mistake in another subject, so
that makes everything else I say completely unreliable? Even though that
was one of the very few times I've ever been wrong here, compared to the
countless other times I've been right?
Yeah, I'm done with this. I've said all I'd wanted to say, and I'm not
going to keep repeating myself.
Mystic_GohaN
Well considering the way I was treated for bringing up correct
information...
Anyway, yea its in the past. In any case, all evidence suggests Super Boo >
Kid Boo > Fat Boo. -1 and 1 cancel each other out. -1 and 3 don't.
Lucky Devin
wrote:
>Rachel Oliver <magik...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:c1o1h6$2l8$2...@inuyasha.nonexiste.net...
>> Mystic_GohaN wrote:
>>
>> > No offense, but I can't really consider you that reliable Rachel because
>I
>> > remember a long time ago, you (and a few other people) would insist that
>> > Gohan's "mystic" power only lasted for 20 hours when I continously tried
>to
>> > tell you that was how long the ceremony was. I'm not sure if you had the
>> > manga back then when you made those claims, but if you did, how can I be
>> > certain what you've given me is accurate? Anyway, check the Piccolo line
>I
>> > posted above. Its definitely in there.
>>
>> As I said in the thread two years ago when this came up, I had
>> misinterpreted a line in a fan translation, and in looking over the line
>> in the Japanese version, I saw my mistake, and Matt pointed it out to me
>> as well when I scanned it for him.
>>
>> Anyway, this is an Ad Hominem. I made one mistake in another subject, so
>> that makes everything else I say completely unreliable? Even though that
>> was one of the very few times I've ever been wrong here, compared to the
>> countless other times I've been right?
>>
>> Yeah, I'm done with this. I've said all I'd wanted to say, and I'm not
>> going to keep repeating myself.
>>
>
>Well considering the way I was treated for bringing up correct
>information...
Isn't the point of argument/debate to disprove what the other person believes
is correct, though? At least in a sense.
>Anyway, yea its in the past. In any case, all evidence suggests Super Boo >
>Kid Boo > Fat Boo. -1 and 1 cancel each other out. -1 and 3 don't.
I did enjoy reading you and Rachel's debate, however, nice work both of yous
^_^
--
She's got me lifted, shifted; higher than the ceiling,
Devin Tregre
"Today, you are who you are today. You're not perfect, but always remember you
have a lot to live for. Today, you are who you are today."
*All motor - H22A PAWA~!*
Mystic_GohaN
Lucky Devin <devincom...@aol.comwstegate> wrote in message
news:20040228151217...@mb-m16.aol.com...
Yea but I was treated pretty badly for stating the fact that the powerup
wasn't 20 hours at that time. I don't mind other people trying to argue
their point, but I was insulted for being correct.
> >Anyway, yea its in the past. In any case, all evidence suggests Super Boo
>
> >Kid Boo > Fat Boo. -1 and 1 cancel each other out. -1 and 3 don't.
>
> I did enjoy reading you and Rachel's debate, however, nice work both of
yous
> ^_^
Thankyou :)
Rachel Oliver
>>Well considering the way I was treated for bringing up correct
>>information...
>
>
> Isn't the point of argument/debate to disprove what the other person believes
> is correct, though? At least in a sense.
Yes. Debating can't be all "um no sorry i disagree ^_^". I don't know if
I'd sounded mean or assholish at all, but it was not intentional if so.
I get pretty passionate about my standpoints in arguments, but I think I
tend to stray from getting personal about it.
No offense. Group hug and stuff.
SK
wrote:
<snip>
>> >Well considering the way I was treated for bringing up correct
>> >information...
>>
>> Isn't the point of argument/debate to disprove what the other person
>believes
>> is correct, though? At least in a sense.
>
>Yea but I was treated pretty badly for stating the fact that the powerup
>wasn't 20 hours at that time. I don't mind other people trying to argue
>their point, but I was insulted for being correct.
You weren't insulted for being correct. You just happened to be
correct, and were insulted for a differing viewpoint. ^_^
--
We miss you Jim. 3.19.86-10.01.02
AFD FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/shimofuri_k/afdfaq.html
Salagir
> Mystic_GohaN wrote:
> [translations]
>> Vol 41, page 5: Piccolo: "Haven't you noticed the increase in Majin Boo's
>> power?
> "Kizukan? Majin Buu no ki no henka ni..." = "Haven't you noticed? The
> change in Majin Buu's ki..."
> It changed because he became a completely different person. A power up
> is not implied.
>> Page 6: Goku: "Is that Boo? Why has his power increased so much?
> "Majin Buu daro? Kono ki wa... dou iu koto da?" = "Is that Majin Buu?
> His ki... what's up with it?"
> Again, his ki changed because he's a different person entirely. It's
> just a complete restructuring of the previous person, and no new
> material is added to increase his power at all.
>> Page 29: Kuririn: Why don't I get the kids to fight him now?
>> Piccolo: Have you not noticed? They can't beat him with fusion anymore."
> "Wakaranakatta ka...! Ima no mama de wa, ikura fyuujon o shite mo,
> machigainaku kate wa sen...!" = "Don't you understand! As it is now, no
> matter how much they use Fusion, they undoubtedly could not win...!"
> There is nothing implying "anymore". Even before the split, Piccolo had
> wanted them to train more to make the Fusion more effective. They did
> already lose to Fat Buu once. The events of the battle were only shown
> in the anime, but Gotenks still left and immediately came back bruised
> up in the manga.
'just wanna say that the french translation also got the same word you
think result of a bad translation (and which clearly say that this Buu is
far stronger than fat Buu).
So maybe my translation is also wrong, but... anyway, you'll
understand why I think the same as Mystic_GohaN :)
--
++++++++ Zelda, Dragon Ball, Mana and my (art)work at www.salagir.com ++++++++
Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!
-+- Tom Bombadil in The Lord of the Rings -+-
Rachel Oliver
> So maybe my translation is also wrong, but... anyway, you'll
> understand why I think the same as Mystic_GohaN :)
I don't know why you're bring this thread up again. If you want to
naively believe that the official translations companies are completely
faithful, and that I'm simply an unreliable liar, then whatever.
Lucky Devin
wrote:
>Salagir wrote:
>
>> So maybe my translation is also wrong, but... anyway, you'll
>> understand why I think the same as Mystic_GohaN :)
>
>I don't know why you're bring this thread up again. If you want to
>naively believe that the official translations companies are completely
>faithful, and that I'm simply an unreliable liar, then whatever.
I don't see the point of it either, you and Mystic gohaN have had your
discussion. To imply that you are an unreliable source of manga is ridiculous.
If I had to choose someone to help me out translating manga, it would be Rachel
no doubt.
--
She's got me lifted, shifted; higher than the ceiling,
Devin Tregre
"Today, you are who you are today. You're not perfect, but always remember you
have a lot to live for. Today, you are who you are today."
*H22 PAWAA!* Get on my level ho.
Mystic_GohaN
1. You didn't have to say what you said in that fashion (if you wanna be
naive, etc).
2. You should be able to understand why he believes so since every
translation with the exception of yours says otherwise. Thats not saying
your translation is wrong, but thats his primary reason of believing so.
3. Even by disregarding all that, you're wrong either case since part of
your argument was that the fact that Goku said he could beat Fat Boo negated
his statement of not being able to beat Super Boo, but he and Vegeta have
said it more than once, therefore, they don't cancel each other out.
Rachel Oliver
>>>So maybe my translation is also wrong, but... anyway, you'll
>>>understand why I think the same as Mystic_GohaN :)
>>
>>I don't know why you're bring this thread up again. If you want to
>>naively believe that the official translations companies are completely
>>faithful, and that I'm simply an unreliable liar, then whatever.
>
>
> I don't see the point of it either, you and Mystic gohaN have had your
> discussion. To imply that you are an unreliable source of manga is ridiculous.
> If I had to choose someone to help me out translating manga, it would be Rachel
> no doubt.
Well, I don't know about that. I still have quite a bit to learn, though
Dragon Ball is a rather easy series to read. But I'd say that I do know
considerably more than the average fanboy who goes around spouting
"baka" and "kawaii".
However, I wouldn't try to use any quote in an argument unless I was
entirely sure of the meaning of the line I'm using.
And it is fact that official companies do suck. FUNimation's dub in
particular is really bad. Including *all* of DB, except for Episodes
14-28. I've never read Viz's manga, but from the excerpts I've seen,
they're not exactly perfect either, though still better than FUNi most
of the time. (I actually remember one instance where FUNimation did
better than Viz... I think it was something Gokuu said to Freeza.) As
far as I'm concerned, translated manga is about as trustworthy as dubbed
anime.
Rachel Oliver
> 1. You didn't have to say what you said in that fashion (if you wanna be
> naive, etc).
Sorry, but I was offended. I do think it's naive, though.
> 2. You should be able to understand why he believes so since every
> translation with the exception of yours says otherwise. Thats not saying
> your translation is wrong, but thats his primary reason of believing so.
No, I don't really understand it. Just because the majority says
something doesn't make it right.
> 3. Even by disregarding all that, you're wrong either case since part of
> your argument was that the fact that Goku said he could beat Fat Boo negated
> his statement of not being able to beat Super Boo, but he and Vegeta have
> said it more than once, therefore, they don't cancel each other out.
...I said I was done with this. (But they really do only say it once.)
I'm sure I sound like some crazy anti-corporate conspiracy theorist now.
Mystic_GohaN
Well I can see where's he's coming from since his translation says so, as
does mine, as does most people's except yours.
And they don't say it only once. First time after freeing their friends,
then the second time they say it indirectly. *Boo shows up in his body*
Vegeta: Dammit. T-this is bad." Goku: Thats why I told you to keep the
potara. If we could merge once we were outside, we could beat this guy."
Thats twice (I also don't think Vegeta would stutter like that if Boo was
beatable). Third reason: Goku after talking with Vegeta about what they
should do says "There is ONE method by which we can win" which is by fusing.
Another reason: if they could have beaten him, why was Vegeta so quick to
pull Fat Boo out and Goku so quick to blow a hole to escape? They never
fight Boo in the manga, they don't even attempt to. If he wasn't stronger,
they would have tried fighting him. But they didn't. Thats not too hard of a
concept to grasp is it?
Mystic_GohaN
Hmm I don't know what happened to my post. I definitely replied. Anyway...
Well what makes you think he's going to trust your translation when everyone
elses' translation says otherwise? Again, I'm not saying its incorrect. I'm
just saying I understand why he thinks this way.
Second, they don't only say it once. Goku says "No matter how much he may
have returned to normal, even at that, we still can't beat him" right after
they free their friends. Vegeta says "What do you suggest we do?" The second
time, he goes over to Vegeta saying "But there is ONE method by which we can
win (fusion)." Third time is indirectly stated. *Boo appears in his head*
Vegeta: Dammit, t-this could be bad! Goku: Thats why I told you to keep
the potara. If we could only merge outside once we were outside, we could
beat him. Fourth reason: if Goku and Vegeta were able to beat Super Boo,
they would have attempted to fight him. They didn't. Instead, Goku tried to
blow a hole in his head to leave, and Vegeta quickly ran to the other Boo.
If he was possible to beat, they wouldn't attempt to run.
SK
wrote:
<snip>
>Hmm I don't know what happened to my post. I definitely replied. Anyway...
It's Roadrunner. They have shitty news servers.
FT
in news:f6it409v7a6cldnj4...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:32:20 GMT, "Mystic_GohaN" <sm...@nycap.rr.com>
> wrote:
> <snip>
>>Hmm I don't know what happened to my post. I definitely replied.
>>Anyway...
>
> It's Roadrunner. They have shitty news servers.
Seconded. That's why I don't use them.
--
-FT
http://www.nonexiste.net
Seru isu Iviru! Laatsu ofu Puuru Fiishu Dai!
Freezer
> SK <drivinghighway61...@figureoutthearrangement.com> wrote
> in news:f6it409v7a6cldnj4...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:32:20 GMT, "Mystic_GohaN" <sm...@nycap.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>Hmm I don't know what happened to my post. I definitely replied.
>>>Anyway...
>>
>> It's Roadrunner. They have shitty news servers.
>
> Seconded. That's why I don't use them.
>
Thirded. The NNTP servers are about the only reason I'd switch from
Cable to DSL. My brother has Bellsouth, and their servers kick ass.
--
Salagir
> Sorry, but I was offended.
Then I'm really sorry.
This wasn't my intention, I just wanted to bring my 2 cents. I don't say
you lie or you're wrong about the translation, I just find it
interesting that every other sources say otherwise...
If it's an error... why the hell do they all make it?
I can believe they all made an arror, after all, even in big subbed
americans film, the french translation have errors a beginner wouldn't
do.
(they keep translating "eventually" to "éventuellement" which means...
"possibly"! Exactly the opposite in most usages -_- )
> I'm sure I sound like some crazy anti-corporate conspiracy theorist now.
^_^
--
++++++++ Zelda, Dragon Ball, Mana and my (art)work at www.salagir.com ++++++++
kawaiiiiiiiiiiiiiii ! :)
SK
wrote:
>SK <drivinghighway61...@figureoutthearrangement.com> wrote
>in news:f6it409v7a6cldnj4...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:32:20 GMT, "Mystic_GohaN" <sm...@nycap.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>Hmm I don't know what happened to my post. I definitely replied.
>>>Anyway...
>>
>> It's Roadrunner. They have shitty news servers.
>
>Seconded. That's why I don't use them.
Ironically, Roadrunner dropped that post...