Did Vegeta retain his Majin power-up after dying?
Mohammed
Majin Vegeta has a distinctive dark outline around his eyes, bulging
veins and the characteristic Majin symbol on his forehead, all
features that he shares in common with Majin Spopovitch and Yamu. More
significantly, Vegeta also has the ability to transform into a Super
Saiya-jin 2, which implies a dramatic increase in power in comparison
to his form before being enchanted by Babidi.
After being sent back to Earth by Enma-Daio, Vegeta no longer
possessed the physical characteristics which seemed to define the
"Majin state" and appeared somewhat weaker from that point
onwards,IMHO, especially when compared to Goku's SSJ2 form.(whereas
Majin Vegeta was more evenly matched with SSJ2 Goku while they fought
on Earth.)
My question is, does irrefutable evidence exist that Vegeta retained
the ability to transform into an SSJ2 after dying? (such as electrical
discharges seen in his Super Saiyan aura)
Furthermore, if Vegeta was indeed still able to transform into an SSJ2
after his death, couldn't that power be attributed to his death and a
subsequent Saiya-jin power up instead of the continued effect of
Babidi's Majin spell?
Lastly, I have read a few of the older posts on this newsgroup and I
have noticed that some people seem to believe that being absorbed by
Majin Buu has the effect of nullifying magical power increases, which
is cited as the cause of Vegetto's defusion and the speculated loss of
Mystic Gohan's power-up. If Vegeta retained his Majin power-up after
returning to Earth, wouldn't it have been lost when Vegeta was
wandering around the inside of Buu? (assuming the aforementioned
theory is correct.)
Lucky Devin
wrote:
>In the anime (I can't comment on the manga since I haven't read it),
>Majin Vegeta has a distinctive dark outline around his eyes, bulging
>veins and the characteristic Majin symbol on his forehead, all
>features that he shares in common with Majin Spopovitch and Yamu. More
>significantly, Vegeta also has the ability to transform into a Super
>Saiya-jin 2, which implies a dramatic increase in power in comparison
>to his form before being enchanted by Babidi.
I have always assumed that Vegeta had the ability to go SSJ2 'before' his Majin
powers came about. It is said that all he did was train in the seven years
after the Cell Saga, so I have always gone with the theory that he reached that
plateau while Goku was dead.
>After being sent back to Earth by Enma-Daio, Vegeta no longer
>possessed the physical characteristics which seemed to define the
>"Majin state" and appeared somewhat weaker from that point
>onwards,IMHO, especially when compared to Goku's SSJ2 form.(whereas
>Majin Vegeta was more evenly matched with SSJ2 Goku while they fought
>on Earth.)
What makes you think he was weaker?
>My question is, does irrefutable evidence exist that Vegeta retained
>the ability to transform into an SSJ2 after dying? (such as electrical
>discharges seen in his Super Saiyan aura)
I don't see why not, and as I have mentioned earlier in the post, I think he
had the ability before he even heard of Babidi. You ask for irrefutable
evidence, and that I cannot provide, this is just my take on things.
>Furthermore, if Vegeta was indeed still able to transform into an SSJ2
>after his death, couldn't that power be attributed to his death and a
>subsequent Saiya-jin power up instead of the continued effect of
>Babidi's Majin spell?
Well, the Majin power-up I am rather sure wears off after the 'creator' of the
power (Babidi) dies, or the person who held the power dies. Look at Dabura for
instance. The Saiya-jin attribute of gaining power after taking lots of
punishment probably means Vegeta was on the same level in terms of power during
the battle on Kaioushinn's planet as Majin Vegeta was, or at least damn near
it.
>Lastly, I have read a few of the older posts on this newsgroup and I
>have noticed that some people seem to believe that being absorbed by
>Majin Buu has the effect of nullifying magical power increases, which
>is cited as the cause of Vegetto's defusion and the speculated loss of
>Mystic Gohan's power-up. If Vegeta retained his Majin power-up after
>returning to Earth, wouldn't it have been lost when Vegeta was
>wandering around the inside of Buu? (assuming the aforementioned
>theory is correct.)
I have always believed that everyone who was under Babidi's control lost the
Majin powerup after the sorcerer himself died.
This is just my take on things though, like I said I have no absolute evidence,
but someone else on this group more familiar with the manga than I may be able
to shed some light on the issue.
--
Never too late, never too late...
Devin Tregre -
"Rememberences of past triumphs offer only momentary respite from obsessing
over current ills."
*Ibiza!*
Rachel Oliver
> In the anime (I can't comment on the manga since I haven't read it),
> Majin Vegeta has a distinctive dark outline around his eyes, bulging
> veins and the characteristic Majin symbol on his forehead, all
> features that he shares in common with Majin Spopovitch and Yamu. More
> significantly, Vegeta also has the ability to transform into a Super
> Saiya-jin 2, which implies a dramatic increase in power in comparison
> to his form before being enchanted by Babidi.
I've always figured that Vegeta reached SSJ2 sometime before the Buu saga.
Considering he had reached USSJ before the Cell Games, and that he had seven
years to do his intense-obsessive training...
Also, he certainly looked like he was SSJ2 fighting Buu on Kaioushin's planet
while Gokuu was making the Genkidama, even though he was clearly no longer
"Ma-jin Vegeta".
> After being sent back to Earth by Enma-Daio, Vegeta no longer
> possessed the physical characteristics which seemed to define the
> "Majin state" and appeared somewhat weaker from that point
> onwards,IMHO, especially when compared to Goku's SSJ2 form.(whereas
> Majin Vegeta was more evenly matched with SSJ2 Goku while they fought
> on Earth.)
Hmm, he didn't really seem weaker to me.
My theory on the way Babidi's "Ma-jin" powerup works is that it doesn't really
give anyone any power they don't already have, but instead just releases it
full-throttle. And also, it acts on the evil within a person, and seems to get
rid of any moral restraints, making them much more dangerous (kind of like the
original Buu).
> My question is, does irrefutable evidence exist that Vegeta retained
> the ability to transform into an SSJ2 after dying? (such as electrical
> discharges seen in his Super Saiyan aura)
Yes.
> Furthermore, if Vegeta was indeed still able to transform into an SSJ2
> after his death, couldn't that power be attributed to his death and a
> subsequent Saiya-jin power up instead of the continued effect of
> Babidi's Majin spell?
Well, Saiya-jin are only said to receive great powerups from recovering from the
brink of death. Coming back from death itself is a bit different, and I can't
think of much evidence supporting that it works the same. I mean, I don't think
Gokuu or Vegeta suddenly powered up when their halos disappeared.
But Vegeta was shown dead with his halo, and he was clearly not "Ma-jin"
anymore, like Babidi's spell wore off the minute Vegeta died, so I don't think
this matters anyway.
> Lastly, I have read a few of the older posts on this newsgroup and I
> have noticed that some people seem to believe that being absorbed by
> Majin Buu has the effect of nullifying magical power increases, which
> is cited as the cause of Vegetto's defusion and the speculated loss of
> Mystic Gohan's power-up. If Vegeta retained his Majin power-up after
> returning to Earth, wouldn't it have been lost when Vegeta was
> wandering around the inside of Buu? (assuming the aforementioned
> theory is correct.)
Again, it looks to me like Vegeta had already lost his Ma-jin power up when he
died, so it's kind of a moot point.
--
-The Ayatollah of Coca-Cola, FKA Triple Rach
James Allen Stanfield, 03/19/86-10/01/02
Rest in Peace, Jim, we love you.
Mohammed
> > ghettof...@hotmail.com (Mohammed)
> wrote:
>
>I have always assumed that Vegeta had the ability to go SSJ2 'before'
his >Majin powers came about. It is said that all he did was train in
the seven >years after the Cell Saga, so I have always gone with the
theory that he >reached that plateau while Goku was dead.
I was under the impression that Vegeta never reached any level beyond
an ordinary Super Saiya-jin on his own - that's why he allowed himself
to be enchanted by Babidi. He wanted the increase in power.
There's also the remote possibility that Vegeta *never* had the
ability to become an SSJ2, and that the Majin power increase only
enhanced his normal Super Saiya-jin level to the point where it took
on all the characteristics of SSJ2 due to the incredible power. Of
course, that would require as a prerequisite the assumption that
electrical discharges in the aura and other SSJ2 features are the
result of having a high power level, and not properties of the SSJ2
form alone. You'd also have to ignore all of the evidence immediately
disproving this theory. Oh well.
> >After being sent back to Earth by Enma-Daio, Vegeta no longer
> >possessed the physical characteristics which seemed to define the
> >"Majin state" and appeared somewhat weaker from that point
> >onwards,IMHO, especially when compared to Goku's SSJ2 form.(whereas
> >Majin Vegeta was more evenly matched with SSJ2 Goku while they fought
> >on Earth.)
>
> What makes you think he was weaker?
After being absorbed by Majin Buu, Vegeta and Goku fought an "internal
manifestation" of Buu when they were attempting to free the other
Z-Fighters. Vegeta was knocked unconscious fairly easily and didn't
contribute anything to the fight after that, however Goku continued
fighting the manifestation of Super Buu until he simply *couldn't*
fight any longer due to exhaustion.
During the battle with Kid Buu shortly afterwards, SSJ2 Goku was able
to fight evenly for a few moments with Buu and wasn't taking much more
damage from Buu than he was dishing out. Vegeta, on the other hand,
was being batted around like a cat toy after only hitting Buu a couple
of times - from that point on, he was completely defenseless.
Of course, my observations are subjective, however they led me to
believe that Vegeta's power in his maximum attainable SSJ form was
significantly lower than Goku's power at a corresponding level.
>Well, the Majin power-up I am rather sure wears off after the
'creator' of the
>power (Babidi) dies, or the person who held the power dies. Look at
Dabura for
>instance. The Saiya-jin attribute of gaining power after taking lots
of
>punishment probably means Vegeta was on the same level in terms of
power >during the battle on Kaioushinn's planet as Majin Vegeta was,
or at least damn >near it.
I agree that it seems logical that the Majin power-up would lose its
effect after the person who cast the spell died.
Gosheven
>>Majin Vegeta has a distinctive dark outline around his eyes, bulging
>>veins and the characteristic Majin symbol on his forehead, all
>>features that he shares in common with Majin Spopovitch and Yamu. More
>>significantly, Vegeta also has the ability to transform into a Super
>>Saiya-jin 2, which implies a dramatic increase in power in comparison
>>to his form before being enchanted by Babidi.
>
>I have always assumed that Vegeta had the ability to go SSJ2 'before' his
>Majin
>powers came about. It is said that all he did was train in the seven years
>after the Cell Saga, so I have always gone with the theory that he reached
>that
>plateau while Goku was dead.
I agree. Vegeta obviously had the idea in his head that he had reached a power
level beyond Gohan's initial SSJ2 level (during the battle with Cell). My take
on it was that Vegeta had long since surpassed Gohan's level, but realized that
it was still below that of Goku's when Goku fought Yarkon. That's when he
decided that he would allow Babidi to control him (or at the very least unleash
his full potential, I think there was enough evidence to show that Vegeta never
had any intentions of allowing Babidi to control him).
>>After being sent back to Earth by Enma-Daio, Vegeta no longer
>>possessed the physical characteristics which seemed to define the
>>"Majin state" and appeared somewhat weaker from that point
>>onwards,IMHO, especially when compared to Goku's SSJ2 form.(whereas
>>Majin Vegeta was more evenly matched with SSJ2 Goku while they fought
>>on Earth.)
>
>What makes you think he was weaker?
>
Again I agree. I never got the impression that he was weaker. If anything, I
think that he realized at this point how to attain his maximum potential (which
Babidi helped him unlock by removing his inhibitions. I don't think Babidi
increased his power at all). So I would say that he was at the same power level
as Majin Vegeta.
>>My question is, does irrefutable evidence exist that Vegeta retained
>>the ability to transform into an SSJ2 after dying? (such as electrical
>>discharges seen in his Super Saiyan aura)
>
>I don't see why not, and as I have mentioned earlier in the post, I think he
>had the ability before he even heard of Babidi. You ask for irrefutable
>evidence, and that I cannot provide, this is just my take on things.
>
IIRC, Vegeta did have the lightning arcs around his body on a few occassions
and even had the stiffer hair look of SSJ2.
>>Furthermore, if Vegeta was indeed still able to transform into an SSJ2
>>after his death, couldn't that power be attributed to his death and a
>>subsequent Saiya-jin power up instead of the continued effect of
>>Babidi's Majin spell?
>
>Well, the Majin power-up I am rather sure wears off after the 'creator' of
>the
>power (Babidi) dies, or the person who held the power dies. Look at Dabura
>for
>instance. The Saiya-jin attribute of gaining power after taking lots of
>punishment probably means Vegeta was on the same level in terms of power
>during
>the battle on Kaioushinn's planet as Majin Vegeta was, or at least damn near
>it.
>
See above.
-Gosheven
Gosheven
>his >Majin powers came about. It is said that all he did was train in
>the seven >years after the Cell Saga, so I have always gone with the
>theory that he >reached that plateau while Goku was dead.
>
>I was under the impression that Vegeta never reached any level beyond
>an ordinary Super Saiya-jin on his own - that's why he allowed himself
>to be enchanted by Babidi. He wanted the increase in power.
>
>There's also the remote possibility that Vegeta *never* had the
>ability to become an SSJ2, and that the Majin power increase only
>enhanced his normal Super Saiya-jin level to the point where it took
>on all the characteristics of SSJ2 due to the incredible power. Of
>course, that would require as a prerequisite the assumption that
>electrical discharges in the aura and other SSJ2 features are the
>result of having a high power level, and not properties of the SSJ2
>form alone. You'd also have to ignore all of the evidence immediately
>disproving this theory. Oh well.
I disagree. Vegeta stated repeatedly that he and Goku were stronger than Gohan
was during his fight with Cell. In fact, that was one of the reasons he was so
ppissed with Gohan, because he seemed to have the impression that Gohan should
have trained to keep his power level up. When Babidi "Majin-d" Vegeta, he said
that he was releasing Vegeta's inhibitions, keeping him from holding back as he
had been doing for seven years. This allowed Vegeta to attain his full SSJ2
potential which was on par with Goku's (at least that's the understanding I
got). So basically, Vegeta could go SSJ2, he just wasn't as strong at it as
Goku because he had mellowed out some. There was no one to challenge (what with
Goku being dead and all).
>> >After being sent back to Earth by Enma-Daio, Vegeta no longer
>> >possessed the physical characteristics which seemed to define the
>> >"Majin state" and appeared somewhat weaker from that point
>> >onwards,IMHO, especially when compared to Goku's SSJ2 form.(whereas
>> >Majin Vegeta was more evenly matched with SSJ2 Goku while they fought
>> >on Earth.)
>>
>> What makes you think he was weaker?
>
>After being absorbed by Majin Buu, Vegeta and Goku fought an "internal
>manifestation" of Buu when they were attempting to free the other
>Z-Fighters. Vegeta was knocked unconscious fairly easily and didn't
>contribute anything to the fight after that, however Goku continued
>fighting the manifestation of Super Buu until he simply *couldn't*
>fight any longer due to exhaustion.
>
You have to remember that Goku was still stronger than Vegeta. His SSJ2 form
was stronger and he could go SSJ3 (which takes intense training to attain). And
I don't think either one of them went SSJ2 at that point.
>During the battle with Kid Buu shortly afterwards, SSJ2 Goku was able
>to fight evenly for a few moments with Buu and wasn't taking much more
>damage from Buu than he was dishing out. Vegeta, on the other hand,
>was being batted around like a cat toy after only hitting Buu a couple
>of times - from that point on, he was completely defenseless.
>
Well, Buu was just toying with them both. Also, it's possible that Buu realized
what he was up against when he fought Goku and no doubt stepped up his game by
the time he fought Vegeta. The fact that Vegeta took so much punishment for so
long indicates, to me, that Vegeta was a lot stronger at this point. He had to
be at the same level he was when he fought Fat Buu. Also, Vegeta fought quite a
bit of the battle in his regular form.
>Of course, my observations are subjective, however they led me to
>believe that Vegeta's power in his maximum attainable SSJ form was
>significantly lower than Goku's power at a corresponding level.
>
They were lower I believe but were still on par with his "Majin" levels.
-Gosheven
Gosheven
>> after his death, couldn't that power be attributed to his death and a
>> subsequent Saiya-jin power up instead of the continued effect of
>> Babidi's Majin spell?
>
>Well, Saiya-jin are only said to receive great powerups from recovering from
>the
>brink of death. Coming back from death itself is a bit different, and I can't
>
>think of much evidence supporting that it works the same. I mean, I don't
>think
>Gokuu or Vegeta suddenly powered up when their halos disappeared.
Well, it worked for Cell when he was fighting Gohan. He came back at SSJ2
level, albeit somewhat weaker than Gohan's SSJ2.
-Gosheven
Rachel Oliver
> Well, it worked for Cell when he was fighting Gohan. He came back at SSJ2
> level, albeit somewhat weaker than Gohan's SSJ2.
But Cell didn't die then. He just got very exploded.
Mohammed
>
> >There's also the remote possibility that Vegeta *never* had the
> >ability to become an SSJ2, and that the Majin power increase only
> >enhanced his normal Super Saiya-jin level to the point where it took
> >on all the characteristics of SSJ2 due to the incredible power. Of
> >course, that would require as a prerequisite the assumption that
> >electrical discharges in the aura and other SSJ2 features are the
> >result of having a high power level, and not properties of the SSJ2
> >form alone. You'd also have to ignore all of the evidence immediately
> >disproving this theory. Oh well.
>
> I disagree. Vegeta stated repeatedly that he and Goku were stronger than Gohan
> was during his fight with Cell. In fact, that was one of the reasons he was so
> ppissed with Gohan, because he seemed to have the impression that Gohan should
> have trained to keep his power level up.
Did Vegeta say he was stronger than SSJ2 Gohan? I thought he only said
that Gohan had weakened since his battle with Cell and implied that he
was stronger than Gohan's *normal* SSJ form. You're probably better
informed, since I've only seen those episodes once.
> When Babidi "Majin-d" Vegeta, he said
> that he was releasing Vegeta's inhibitions, keeping him from holding back as > he had been doing for seven years.
I missed this part.
> This allowed Vegeta to attain his full SSJ2
> potential which was on par with Goku's (at least that's the understanding I
> got). So basically, Vegeta could go SSJ2, he just wasn't as strong at it as
> Goku because he had mellowed out some. There was no one to challenge
> (what with Goku being dead and all).
Vegeta didn't seem like he had mellowed out *that* much, to me. He was
training with Trunks regularly, and he seemed pretty zealous when the
prospect of defeating Gohan in the tournament arose.
> >After being absorbed by Majin Buu, Vegeta and Goku fought an "internal
> >manifestation" of Buu when they were attempting to free the other
> >Z-Fighters. Vegeta was knocked unconscious fairly easily and didn't
> >contribute anything to the fight after that, however Goku continued
> >fighting the manifestation of Super Buu until he simply *couldn't*
> >fight any longer due to exhaustion.
> >
>
> You have to remember that Goku was still stronger than Vegeta. His SSJ2 form
> was stronger and he could go SSJ3 (which takes intense training to attain). > And I don't think either one of them went SSJ2 at that point.
Yeah, I think they were just normal Super Saiya-jins.
> >During the battle with Kid Buu shortly afterwards, SSJ2 Goku was able
> >to fight evenly for a few moments with Buu and wasn't taking much more
> >damage from Buu than he was dishing out. Vegeta, on the other hand,
> >was being batted around like a cat toy after only hitting Buu a couple
> >of times - from that point on, he was completely defenseless.
>
> Well, Buu was just toying with them both. Also, it's possible that Buu
> realized what he was up against when he fought Goku and no doubt stepped up
> his game by the time he fought Vegeta.
Are you certain that Kid Buu was toying with them? He seemed incapable
of restaining himself and his behavior gave me the impression that he
was barely cognizant. My personal opinion is that while Kid Buu
possessed the ability to mimic techniques and had a high power level,
his "fighting intelligence" was next to zero. If he didn't have the
power to regenerate, he would have been killed by SSJ2 Goku almost
immediately after their fight began.
> The fact that Vegeta took so much punishment for so long indicates, to me, > that Vegeta was a lot stronger at this point.
Vegeta was able to sustain so much damage because he was dead until he
fought Kid Buu for the final time, which apparently increases the
durability of an individual's body. (Unless this is a dub-only quote,
in which case you can and should disregard this.)
> He had to be at the same level he was when he fought Fat Buu.
Majin Vegeta was Fat Buu's physical combat superior. He struck faster
and he was far more skilled. Fat Buu had to use an incredibly powerful
ki attack to injure Vegeta to the point where he was vulnerable to
Buu's physical attacks.
That being said, Fat Buu was able to give Kid Buu a much better
*physical* fight than Vegeta was, despite being weaker than he was
during his fight with Majin Vegeta because of the split with Evil Buu.
(I believe it's stated in the Japanese version that Evil Buu received
most of the power when he split from Fat Buu, and the Fat Buu released
from Kid Buu was the same weakened one absorbed by the Evil form.)
Of course, Fat Buu also had the regeneration ability which undoubtably
aided him during the fight with Kid Buu, so this might all be
nonsense.
> Also, Vegeta fought quite a bit of the battle in his regular form.
Indeed, and he actually did some damage in his normal form while he
was still dead, but after being resurrected he was totally slaughtered
by Kid Buu.
Mohammed
> >> Furthermore, if Vegeta was indeed still able to transform into an SSJ2
> >> after his death, couldn't that power be attributed to his death and a
> >> subsequent Saiya-jin power up instead of the continued effect of
> >> Babidi's Majin spell?
> >
> >Well, Saiya-jin are only said to receive great powerups from recovering from
> >the
> >brink of death. Coming back from death itself is a bit different, and I can't
> >
> >think of much evidence supporting that it works the same. I mean, I don't
> >think
> >Gokuu or Vegeta suddenly powered up when their halos disappeared.
by Frieza?
> Well, it worked for Cell when he was fighting Gohan. He came back at SSJ2
> level, albeit somewhat weaker than Gohan's SSJ2.
> -Gosheven
Cell never "died", though. He was reduced to his cellular nucleus when
he self-destructed, but he was able to regenerate.
Rachel Oliver
> Wasn't Vegeta much stronger when he was resurrected after being killed
> by Frieza?
I thought about that, and I don't remember him fighting or showing off his power
or anything immediately afterwards. But I don't know.
Shiranui Gen-An
"Mohammed" <ghettof...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:400388e4.03042...@posting.google.com...
Well, in the Japanese manga Babidi said he'd help Vegeta overcome his
barriers and unlock his hidden power, so all he did was make it
easier/quicker for Vegeta to go SSJ2. And we did see him use lightning aura
after he came back from the dead when he tried to buy some time for SSJ3
Gokuu to charge his power enough to kill Kid Boo with one blast. Saiyans
only get stronger if they get *close* to death and recover. I don't think
it every said anything about them getting stronger after actually *dying*.
That said, I wonder why no one seems to think the "powerups" Gohan, Dende
and Kulilin got from the Great Namek Elder were temporary but they do teen
Gohan's by the old Kaiohshin. Both the Namek Elder and the old Kai did
basically the same thing: unlock the potential of the person. I assume for
Dende and Kulilin it was for their full potential but when he did Gohan he
got tired and was unable to do it fully. The old Kai managed to fully
unlock his strength, albeit in a way that no longer required going SSJ.
Which, frankly, is better considering the stresses SSJ puts on Saiyajin's
bodies. Remember the old Kai warning Gokuu not to go SSJ before using the
Potara Fusion since they'd be stuck that way forever and it would shorten
their lifespan.
Mohammed
> "Mohammed" <ghettof...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:400388e4.03042...@posting.google.com...
>
>
> barriers and unlock his hidden power, so all he did was make it
> easier/quicker for Vegeta to go SSJ2. And we did see him use lightning aura
> after he came back from the dead when he tried to buy some time for SSJ3
> Gokuu to charge his power enough to kill Kid Boo with one blast.
Ah.
> Saiyans
> only get stronger if they get *close* to death and recover. I don't think
> it every said anything about them getting stronger after actually *dying*.
Yes, I was wrong. Goku wasn't any stronger than he was after his
training in the Otherworld when he was resurrected after being given
Old Kai's life. Goku even indicated that he was weaker a few times.
Same when Goku was revived by the dragonballs the *first* time he
died. No major power increase.
> That said, I wonder why no one seems to think the "powerups" Gohan, Dende
> and Kulilin got from the Great Namek Elder were temporary but they do teen
> Gohan's by the old Kaiohshin.
I think the most common justification for that position was Buu's
ability to negate the Potara Fusion, which is considered to be magical
just like the Old Kai's power-increasing technique. Personally, I
don't think there's enough evidence to say with certainty that Gohan
lost his Mystic power -- the fact that Buu was so much stronger after
absorbing Mystic Gohan seems to indicate that the opposite was true.
> Both the Namek Elder and the old Kai did
> basically the same thing: unlock the potential of the person. I assume for
> Dende and Kulilin it was for their full potential but when he did Gohan he
> got tired and was unable to do it fully.
That, or it was much easier and faster to unlock Krillin's potential
because it was probably several orders of magnitude less than Gohan's.
Maybe it would have taken a day for the Elder to release Gohan's full
hidden power just like it did for the Old Kai?
> The old Kai managed to fully
> unlock his strength, albeit in a way that no longer required going SSJ.
> Which, frankly, is better considering the stresses SSJ puts on Saiyajin's
> bodies. Remember the old Kai warning Gokuu not to go SSJ before using the
> Potara Fusion since they'd be stuck that way forever and it would shorten
> their lifespan.
Is the stress due to the transformation process, the state of being
transformed or the effect of the extreme power on the body? Perhaps
the physical changes Gohan experienced after the Mystic power-up were
necessary in order for his body to sustain the kind of energy that was
being released?
Viahatuso
> Majin Vegeta has a distinctive dark outline around his eyes, bulging
> veins and the characteristic Majin symbol on his forehead, all
> features that he shares in common with Majin Spopovitch and Yamu. More
> significantly, Vegeta also has the ability to transform into a Super
> Saiya-jin 2, which implies a dramatic increase in power in comparison
> to his form before being enchanted by Babidi.
>
> After being sent back to Earth by Enma-Daio, Vegeta no longer
> possessed the physical characteristics which seemed to define the
> "Majin state" and appeared somewhat weaker from that point
> onwards,IMHO, especially when compared to Goku's SSJ2 form.(whereas
> Majin Vegeta was more evenly matched with SSJ2 Goku while they fought
> on Earth.)
>
Vegeta attained SSJ@ without Babidi. However, with Babidi dead it makes
sense that the Majin effect would wear-off.
Also, Vegeta died, before Babidi did so he must have gotten a power-up which
took him above the level he was with the Majin effect. This leads to a very
strange predicament---> Vegeta's actions/appearance after being sent back to
earth.
> My question is, does irrefutable evidence exist that Vegeta retained
> the ability to transform into an SSJ2 after dying? (such as electrical
> discharges seen in his Super Saiyan aura)
>
After Vegeta is sent back to earth, there is not ONE scene where the
lightning arua can be witnessed arond him.
I know because I rewatched every episode. I was trying to show people how
lightining doesn't equal ssj2.
When Mystic Buu chases Goku and Vegeta, Vegeta powers up, but ehere is not
lightning. He wants to kill Buu by himself. (Said so in his own words), so
he must be in SSJ2 (a level he has mastered on his own) otherwise how could
he have a chance against this new ans stronger Buu? However, no lightning is
present, so a less informed person cold think he was powered down, but the
circumstances of the episode don't allow for that.
> Furthermore, if Vegeta was indeed still able to transform into an SSJ2
> after his death, couldn't that power be attributed to his death and a
> subsequent Saiya-jin power up instead of the continued effect of
> Babidi's Majin spell?
>
Yes
Viahatuso
Rachel Oliver <tripl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ea7...@nospam.kicks-ass.net...
> Mohammed wrote:
>
> > Wasn't Vegeta much stronger when he was resurrected after being killed
> > by Frieza?
>
> I thought about that, and I don't remember him fighting or showing off his
power
> or anything immediately afterwards. But I don't know.
After being ressurected Vegetaflies towards the battle between Goku and
Freeza.
"Kakarot, you're a Super Saiyan. I can See it."
"Nice to se you Vegeta. It's a good thing I didn't bury you too deep."
"What what. Huh. You. You're a ghost. I killed you!"
"Can a Ghost DO THIS... FREEZA!!!!" (teleport)
Vegeta had obviously powered up, he lost to 1%Freeza. He's not so idiotic to
shoot any blast at 100% Freeza unless he had more confidence in his own
power. i.e. a power up from being revived.
Viahatuso
> because it was probably several orders of magnitude less than Gohan's.
> Maybe it would have taken a day for the Elder to release Gohan's full
> hidden power just like it did for the Old Kai?
>
No. That's crazy. Gohan didn't have SSJ3 potential when he was on Namek.
Nothing is THAT hidden. ^_^
Rachel Oliver
> After being ressurected Vegetaflies towards the battle between Goku and
> Freeza.
> "Kakarot, you're a Super Saiyan. I can See it."
> "Nice to se you Vegeta. It's a good thing I didn't bury you too deep."
> "What what. Huh. You. You're a ghost. I killed you!"
> "Can a Ghost DO THIS... FREEZA!!!!" (teleport)
>
> Vegeta had obviously powered up, he lost to 1%Freeza. He's not so idiotic to
> shoot any blast at 100% Freeza unless he had more confidence in his own
> power. i.e. a power up from being revived.
1) That's filler.
2) You've quoted the dub.
3) The SEASON THREE dub, no less.
Mohammed
> > the ability to transform into an SSJ2 after dying? (such as electrical
> > discharges seen in his Super Saiyan aura)
> >
> After Vegeta is sent back to earth, there is not ONE scene where the
> lightning arua can be witnessed arond him.
> I know because I rewatched every episode. I was trying to show people how
> lightining doesn't equal ssj2.
When Gohan transforms into an SSJ2 for the first time during the Cell
saga, there are lightning arcs surrounding him.
When Goku and Majin Vegeta transform into SSJ2s early in the Buu saga,
there are also electrical discharges in their auras.
When Vegeta powers up and fires a ki attack through Fat Buu during
their fight, lightning is visible in his aura.
Just after Piccolo takes Goten and Trunks and leaves the area, Vegeta
tells Buu that they will continue their fight and powers up. Once
again, lightning appears in his aura.
When Goku is demonstrating SSJ2 for Babidi and Fat Buu, faint
electricity is present in his aura during the close-up of his face.
When Goku powers up to SSJ2 in front of Kid Buu on the Kaioshin
planet, there is a LOT of electricity crackling around him.
However, in all of these instances the lightning disappears after the
Saiya-jin has finished powering up and only sporadically reoccurs
during moments of exertion or when the character's aura flares up.
Based on this, I've always assumed that *most* SSJ2s have electricity
in their auras when they first transform or when they're powering up,
but the absence of lightning in the aura doesn't necessaily indicate
that the Saiya-jin isn't at SSJ2.
I wonder though - in every scene where Vegeta is *definitely* an SSJ2
(i.e. when he's in his Majin form.) he has lightning in his aura while
powering up, so based on that precedent alone I question whether
Vegeta was really an SSJ2 during the fight with Kid Buu. Maybe he was
just exhausted and couldn't generate that much energy? He did seem to
use his normal form an awful lot during the fight, which suggests to
me that he was critically low on energy, even before being revived.
> When Mystic Buu chases Goku and Vegeta, Vegeta powers up, but ehere is not
> lightning. He wants to kill Buu by himself. (Said so in his own words), so
> he must be in SSJ2 (a level he has mastered on his own) otherwise how could
> he have a chance against this new ans stronger Buu?
Vegeta was always more confident than his abilities merit. Moreover,
Vegeta clearly *wasn't* anywhere close to being a match for Buu after
he absorbed Mystic Gohan, and with Vegeta's ki sensing power he would
know this. He wasn't even a match for Fat Buu as an SSJ2. I think the
fact that Vegeta was eager to fight Buu by itself doesn't indicate how
powerful he was.
> However, no lightning is
> present, so a less informed person cold think he was powered down, but the
> circumstances of the episode don't allow for that.
I tend to disagree. The progression of the Buu saga after Vegeta is
sent back to Earth doesn't really demand that Vegeta be an SSJ2.
Remember that Trunks was able to kick Fat Buu through a series of rock
outcroppings at SSJ, and Vegeta's SSJ form is undoubtably far
stronger.
It's not like Vegeta really did anything directly other than get
kicked around a lot during the fight with Kid Buu, anyway.
Shiranui Gen-An
"Viahatuso" <calr...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:b894s3$2h06$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> lightning arua can be witnessed arond him.
> I know because I rewatched every episode. I was trying to show people how
> lightining doesn't equal ssj2.
In the manga, which is what I tend to go by when making statements about DB,
he is drawn with the lightning aura when stalling for SSJ3 Gokuu.
Lightning separates SSJ1 from 2 in the manga.
Mohammed
Gohan's power level was about 1 early in the Saiya-jin saga but
reached somewhere around 700 when he got angry. That demonstrates that
Gohan was capable of hiding at least a seven-hundred-fold increase's
worth of latent energy at that point in DBZ. Of course, that kind of
increase on Namek - assuming it were possible - wouldn't have put him
anywhere near the energy level of Mystic Gohan, but he would have been
stronger than Frieza.
This would only work if potential energy is proportionate to your base
power and not fixed.
Super Mukki
Haha, the fact that he teleports after doing that always made me think that it
made him look that much more like a ghost in Furiza's perspective.
---------
http://www.ssjzion.com
I found once I had a city living in my bellybutton full
of people who did nothing but have sex. Does that mean I intend to
force people to have sex in my bellybutton? -Talen on dream psychology.
Super Mukki
>1) That's filler.
>2) You've quoted the dub.
>3) The SEASON THREE dub, no less.
>
>
In the dub, Vejita calls Gokuu a "Dog" I believe. Oh, well, I don't really
care, I remember watching that episode dubbed, and from DUB Furiza's
perspective, the teleport made Vejita look more like a ghost :D
Super Mukki
>increase on Namek - assuming it were possible - wouldn't have put him
>anywhere near the energy level of Mystic Gohan, but he would have been
>stronger than Frieza.
Gohan was what? Roughly at 10,000? He'd just be around 7,000,000... half as
strong as Furiza.
Mohammed
Okay, great. Finally some compelling evidence.
Mohammed
Well, SSJ Goku, the enormously powerful pinnacle of the Saiya-jin race
was also fighting Frieza, so I don't think Vegeta was as cautious as
he would have been on his own. But I definitely agree that Vegeta had
powered up *somewhat*. Didn't Gohan outperform Vegeta again Frieza
prior to his resurrection? Vegeta trashed Gohan after they had been
teleported to Earth.
Mohammed
> Viahatuso wrote:
>
> > After being ressurected Vegetaflies towards the battle between Goku and
> > Freeza.
> > "Kakarot, you're a Super Saiyan. I can See it."
> > "Nice to se you Vegeta. It's a good thing I didn't bury you too deep."
> > "What what. Huh. You. You're a ghost. I killed you!"
> > "Can a Ghost DO THIS... FREEZA!!!!" (teleport)
> >
> > Vegeta had obviously powered up, he lost to 1%Freeza. He's not so idiotic to
> > shoot any blast at 100% Freeza unless he had more confidence in his own
> > power. i.e. a power up from being revived.
>
> 1) That's filler.
> 2) You've quoted the dub.
> 3) The SEASON THREE dub, no less.
Isn't the choreography in many of the fight sequences also filler?
I've seen a few panels of the Buu Saga manga and the combat wasn't as
continuous and detailed as in the anime.
Gosheven
>> the ability to transform into an SSJ2 after dying? (such as electrical
>> discharges seen in his Super Saiyan aura)
>>
>After Vegeta is sent back to earth, there is not ONE scene where the
>lightning arua can be witnessed arond him.
>I know because I rewatched every episode. I was trying to show people how
>lightining doesn't equal ssj2.
>When Mystic Buu chases Goku and Vegeta, Vegeta powers up, but ehere is not
>lightning. He wants to kill Buu by himself. (Said so in his own words), so
>he must be in SSJ2 (a level he has mastered on his own) otherwise how could
>he have a chance against this new ans stronger Buu? However, no lightning is
>present, so a less informed person cold think he was powered down, but the
>circumstances of the episode don't allow for that.
Both Vegeta and Goku had lightning around their auras when they powered up to
get Kid Buu to come to the Kai planet, IIRC. I would have to go back and see
that episode again, but I seem to remember it because I was looking for it.
-Gosheven
Gosheven
>> lightning. He wants to kill Buu by himself. (Said so in his own words), so
>> he must be in SSJ2 (a level he has mastered on his own) otherwise how could
>> he have a chance against this new ans stronger Buu?
>
>Vegeta was always more confident than his abilities merit. Moreover,
>Vegeta clearly *wasn't* anywhere close to being a match for Buu after
>he absorbed Mystic Gohan, and with Vegeta's ki sensing power he would
>know this. He wasn't even a match for Fat Buu as an SSJ2. I think the
>fact that Vegeta was eager to fight Buu by itself doesn't indicate how
>powerful he was.
While I would normally agree with this assessment, we must keep in mind that
Vegeta's desire to fight Kid Buu came after he had finally admitted and come to
grips with the fact that Goku was the superior warrior. I believe that Vegeta
finally let go of his pride in himself at that point. He finally cleared his
mind as it were. Now of course this didn't mean squat against Kid Buu and
Vegeta knew that (he even admitted it), but he wasn't trying to kill Buu, just
stall him long enough for Goku to make the Spirit Bomb. I still think that
Vegeta could attain SSJ2 even before Babidi's manipulation based on his earlier
statements before the tournament began. Yes, Vegeta was still cocky then, but
I'm sure that he knew enough about the SSJ2 form (how powerful Gohan was
against Cell, the particular energy signature, etc.) to know if he had actually
attained it or not. I think that he and Goku had both surpassed Gohan's level
by the beginning of the Babidi/Buu saga, but that Goku had gone even further
than Vegeta in SSJ2 mode (not counting SSJ3).
-Gosheven
Rachel Oliver
>>>After being ressurected Vegetaflies towards the battle between Goku and
>>>Freeza.
>>>"Kakarot, you're a Super Saiyan. I can See it."
>>>"Nice to se you Vegeta. It's a good thing I didn't bury you too deep."
>>>"What what. Huh. You. You're a ghost. I killed you!"
>>>"Can a Ghost DO THIS... FREEZA!!!!" (teleport)
>>>
>>>Vegeta had obviously powered up, he lost to 1%Freeza. He's not so idiotic to
>>>shoot any blast at 100% Freeza unless he had more confidence in his own
>>>power. i.e. a power up from being revived.
>>
>>1) That's filler.
>>2) You've quoted the dub.
>>3) The SEASON THREE dub, no less.
>
>
> Isn't the choreography in many of the fight sequences also filler?
> I've seen a few panels of the Buu Saga manga and the combat wasn't as
> continuous and detailed as in the anime.
Yes, but I fail to see the relevance...?
Gosheven
>Gohan
>> was during his fight with Cell. In fact, that was one of the reasons he was
>so
>> ppissed with Gohan, because he seemed to have the impression that Gohan
>should
>> have trained to keep his power level up.
>
>Did Vegeta say he was stronger than SSJ2 Gohan? I thought he only said
>that Gohan had weakened since his battle with Cell and implied that he
>was stronger than Gohan's *normal* SSJ form. You're probably better
>informed, since I've only seen those episodes once.
It's been awhile, but ISTR Vegeta saying that both he and Goku were stronger
than Gohan was when he fought Cell at one point or another.
>> When Babidi "Majin-d" Vegeta, he said
>> that he was releasing Vegeta's inhibitions, keeping him from holding back
>as > he had been doing for seven years.
>
>I missed this part.
Yeah, it was in there during the part when Babidi "takes over" Vegeta. He says
that he was releasing his inhibitions or somesuch (I think he was telling
Vegeta to stop holding back or something to that affect).
>> This allowed Vegeta to attain his full SSJ2
>> potential which was on par with Goku's (at least that's the understanding I
>> got). So basically, Vegeta could go SSJ2, he just wasn't as strong at it as
>> Goku because he had mellowed out some. There was no one to challenge
>> (what with Goku being dead and all).
>
>Vegeta didn't seem like he had mellowed out *that* much, to me. He was
>training with Trunks regularly, and he seemed pretty zealous when the
>prospect of defeating Gohan in the tournament arose.
I probably should have used a better term. I didn't mean to imply that he had
stopped training. When he's battling Goku, Vegeta says that he was beginning to
settle down and even started looking forward (or coming to grips with) a life
on Earth with Bulma and Trunks (this is the part where he says that he was fond
of them both, at least in the Funi version). I took this to mean that while he
still trained, he had lost some the drive and intensity that spurred him on to
greater heights in the past. I believe that he realized (as he pretty much said
in his own words) that the killer instinct, the evil, amoral attitude had left
him (all but diminished completely). Babidi released all of that. However, the
changes in his personality over the previous 7 years were far stronger than
Vegeta wanted to admit at first (Goku could see it) and wouldn't allow him to
continue that way anymore. Thus, as a result, Vegeta was willing to sacrifice
himself for the very first time for "Trunks, Bulma, and even Kakarott."
-Gosheven
Gosheven
>was also fighting Frieza, so I don't think Vegeta was as cautious as
>he would have been on his own. But I definitely agree that Vegeta had
>powered up *somewhat*. Didn't Gohan outperform Vegeta again Frieza
>prior to his resurrection? Vegeta trashed Gohan after they had been
>teleported to Earth.
>
>
That scene always made me wonder though. Vegeta trashes Gohan, but when Piccolo
steps to him Vegeta backed down. Does anyone think that Piccolo may have been
stronger than Vegeta at this point? I tend to hold that belief (of course it
could be held over because of my bias towards Piccolo, he's my favorite).
-Gosheven
Mohammed
> Mohammed wrote:
>
> >>>After being ressurected Vegetaflies towards the battle between Goku and
> >>>Freeza.
> >>>"Kakarot, you're a Super Saiyan. I can See it."
> >>>"Nice to se you Vegeta. It's a good thing I didn't bury you too deep."
> >>>"What what. Huh. You. You're a ghost. I killed you!"
> >>>"Can a Ghost DO THIS... FREEZA!!!!" (teleport)
> >>>
> >>>Vegeta had obviously powered up, he lost to 1%Freeza. He's not so idiotic to
> >>>shoot any blast at 100% Freeza unless he had more confidence in his own
> >>>power. i.e. a power up from being revived.
> >>
> >>1) That's filler.
> >>2) You've quoted the dub.
> >>3) The SEASON THREE dub, no less.
> >
> >
> > Isn't the choreography in many of the fight sequences also filler?
> > I've seen a few panels of the Buu Saga manga and the combat wasn't as
> > continuous and detailed as in the anime.
>
> Yes, but I fail to see the relevance...?
If you're disregarding filler scenes, than it seems pointless for me -
or anyone else - to make any assertions based on elements of fights
which may not have occured in the manga. It also creates additional
difficulty in evaluating Vegeta's strength during his battle with Kid
Buu - did the fight progess similarly in the manga, or were there any
substantial differences? Obviously Vegeta would still be losing, but
did he get in any strong blows at all?
Mohammed
> >Of course, that kind of
> >increase on Namek - assuming it were possible - wouldn't have put him
> >anywhere near the energy level of Mystic Gohan, but he would have been
> >stronger than Frieza.
>
> Gohan was what? Roughly at 10,000? He'd just be around 7,000,000... half as
> strong as Furiza.
14,000. I thought it was 30,000, but that's what I get for not doing
any research before I post.
Mohammed
> >> When Mystic Buu chases Goku and Vegeta, Vegeta powers up, but ehere is not
> >> lightning. He wants to kill Buu by himself. (Said so in his own words), so
> >> he must be in SSJ2 (a level he has mastered on his own) otherwise how could
> >> he have a chance against this new ans stronger Buu?
> >
> >Vegeta was always more confident than his abilities merit. Moreover,
> >Vegeta clearly *wasn't* anywhere close to being a match for Buu after
> >he absorbed Mystic Gohan, and with Vegeta's ki sensing power he would
> >know this. He wasn't even a match for Fat Buu as an SSJ2. I think the
> >fact that Vegeta was eager to fight Buu by itself doesn't indicate how
> >powerful he was.
>
> While I would normally agree with this assessment, we must keep in mind that
> Vegeta's desire to fight Kid Buu came after he had finally admitted and come > to grips with the fact that Goku was the superior warrior.
I think the author of the post I was replying to was talking about
when Vegeta tried to fight the Buu who had absorbed Mystic Gohan. This
would have been before Vegeta admitted that Goku was his superior.
> I believe that Vegeta
> finally let go of his pride in himself at that point.
> He finally cleared his
> mind as it were. Now of course this didn't mean squat against Kid Buu and
> Vegeta knew that (he even admitted it), but he wasn't trying to kill Buu, just
> stall him long enough for Goku to make the Spirit Bomb. I still think that
> Vegeta could attain SSJ2 even before Babidi's manipulation based on his
> earlier statements before the tournament began. Yes, Vegeta was still cocky
> then, but I'm sure that he knew enough about the SSJ2 form (how powerful
> Gohan was against Cell, the particular energy signature, etc.) to know if he > had actually attained it or not.
Okay, I looked over a few transcripts of the Japanese version, and I
turned up some quotes which I thought were interesting.
Immediately after Vegeta attacks Fat Buu, Piccolo's comments are:
"{Piccolo:} How did he get that much power?"
"{Piccolo:} [Thinking] He's gotten incredibly powerful! He's as least
as strong as Gohan was when he was fighting Cell, and probably
stronger. But even Gohan was defeated by Majin Buu. We don't know
what's happened to Goku. Vegeta's the only one that has a chance of
fighting Majin Buu. Not only this planet, but the entire universe's
existence depends on Vegeta's strength now!"
This suggests to me that Vegeta had never transformed into a Super
Saiya-jin 2 before the episodes preceeding this one - at least not
anyplace where Piccolo could sense his energy, otherwise he wouldn't
have been so surprised that Vegeta had exceeded Gohan's power. Of
course, those could be filler lines, in which case they're irrelevant.
> I think that he and Goku had both surpassed Gohan's level
> by the beginning of the Babidi/Buu saga, but that Goku had gone even further
> than Vegeta in SSJ2 mode (not counting SSJ3).
> -Gosheven
Well, if Vegeta did surpass Gohan's power level, it doesn't seem like
Piccolo knew about it.
Rachel Oliver
> If you're disregarding filler scenes, than it seems pointless for me -
> or anyone else - to make any assertions based on elements of fights
> which may not have occured in the manga. It also creates additional
> difficulty in evaluating Vegeta's strength during his battle with Kid
> Buu - did the fight progess similarly in the manga, or were there any
> substantial differences? Obviously Vegeta would still be losing, but
> did he get in any strong blows at all?
Who was using anime-only fight elements? Not me, anyway. The fight is a bit more
detailed in the anime, sure, but the general outcome is the same, and Vegeta is
still SSJ2 in the manga.
Rachel Oliver
> Okay, I looked over a few transcripts of the Japanese version, and I
> turned up some quotes which I thought were interesting.
>
> Immediately after Vegeta attacks Fat Buu, Piccolo's comments are:
>
> "{Piccolo:} How did he get that much power?"
>
> "{Piccolo:} [Thinking] He's gotten incredibly powerful! He's as least
> as strong as Gohan was when he was fighting Cell, and probably
> stronger. But even Gohan was defeated by Majin Buu. We don't know
> what's happened to Goku. Vegeta's the only one that has a chance of
> fighting Majin Buu. Not only this planet, but the entire universe's
> existence depends on Vegeta's strength now!"
>
> This suggests to me that Vegeta had never transformed into a Super
> Saiya-jin 2 before the episodes preceeding this one - at least not
> anyplace where Piccolo could sense his energy, otherwise he wouldn't
> have been so surprised that Vegeta had exceeded Gohan's power. Of
> course, those could be filler lines, in which case they're irrelevant.
Well actually, some of those lines are filler. In the manga it goes, "So he's
also surpassed Super Saiya-jin. Such unbelievable power, like Gohan when he was
fighting Cell, or perhaps stronger... But even Gohan was killed by Ma-jin Buu.
How is Ma-jin Buu this..."
But I don't think it's a big deal if Piccolo wasn't aware.
Mystic_GohaN
From what I read, Gohan's latent capacities hadn't been drawn out to the
fullest by Grand Elder-sama. He states that Gohan has many and states he can
unlock a portion of one or something along those lines.
Lightning doesn't always=SSJ2. Gohan didn't have lightning around him when
he fought Dabura but he was SSJ2.
Mohammed
That, or he was afraid of having to fight Piccolo and Gohan at the
same time. Personally, I've always thought that Piccolo was evenly
matched with or superior to Vegeta's normal form through the end of
the series, after they'd been teleported back to Earth.
Mohammed
> Mohammed wrote:
>
> > If you're disregarding filler scenes, than it seems pointless for me -
> > or anyone else - to make any assertions based on elements of fights
> > which may not have occured in the manga. It also creates additional
> > difficulty in evaluating Vegeta's strength during his battle with Kid
> > Buu - did the fight progess similarly in the manga, or were there any
> > substantial differences? Obviously Vegeta would still be losing, but
> > did he get in any strong blows at all?
>
> Who was using anime-only fight elements? Not me, anyway.
I never said you were.
> The fight is a bit
> more detailed in the anime, sure, but the general outcome is the same, and
> Vegeta is still SSJ2 in the manga.
My only issue is that a few *minor* differences between the anime and
manga fight sequences can change your impression of the fight in its
entirety. Did Vegeta get pounded as much? Was he able to hit Buu as
often? If the former isn't true in the manga, it could suggest that
Vegeta is stronger or faster than he was in the anime. If the latter
isn't true, Vegeta could be weaker.
Mohammed
> Mohammed wrote:
>
>Well actually, some of those lines are filler. In the manga it goes,
"So he's
>also surpassed Super Saiya-jin."
>Such unbelievable power, like Gohan when he
>was fighting Cell, or perhaps stronger... But even Gohan was killed
by Ma-jin >Buu. How is Ma-jin Buu this..."
So basically, Piccolo didn't know that Vegeta had reached SSJ-2 until
after he attacked Fat Buu.
>But I don't think it's a big deal if Piccolo wasn't aware.
It's a big deal in the sense that it implies Vegeta had never ascended
to SSJ2 on Earth before he became a Majin.
Piccolo and the others could detect King Cold and Frieza in *space*
with their ~12,500 power levels. It seems like Piccolo would know if
someone on Earth transformed into an SSJ-2 besides Gohan, which is why
I brought it up.
Laurent Gomez
The same for me. (and I'm also a Piccolo fan)
After Piccolo fused with Nail it seems clear to me that Piccolo's level
goes far beyond Vejita and Gohan.
This new Piccolo is stronger than "big freeza" but weaker than "alien
freeza". A note : no one ever beats freeza after that except Goku.
So when Vejita is healed by Dende and show-offs is front of final freeza
we absolutly don't know what level he really is, and I *do* believe that
he is still weaker than Piccolo.
Because the power up he'd need to become stronger than him is way too
much than a usual badly_hurted/healed power up.
Anyway, Gohan is still, I think, at this moment weaker than Vejita and
piccolo.
--
+++++ Zelda, Dragon Ball, Mana and my (art)work at www.salagir.com +++++
Buffy: "Thank the lord!" Oz: "You're welcome."
-+ Buffy and "God" in Buffy The Vampire Slayer, 4x04, -Just a nametag +-
Mystic_GohaN
Laurent Gomez <sal...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3ea9cc59$0$1828$626a...@news.free.fr...
I haven't seen the manga of this episode but in the Japanese version of the
anime, Piccolo says to Dende "Heal Vegeta. I can beat Vegeta, but theres no
way I can beat Freeza." I don't understand this statement since that would
mean vegeta is strong enough to beat freeza but not Piccolo???
Also, I hope you guys realize that the scene in which Vegeta fought Gohan on
earth was filler. Thats why when vegeta flies away, he magically appears in
the next episode sitting under a tree.
SK
wrote:
<snip>
>I haven't seen the manga of this episode but in the Japanese version of the
>anime, Piccolo says to Dende "Heal Vegeta. I can beat Vegeta, but theres no
>way I can beat Freeza." I don't understand this statement since that would
>mean vegeta is strong enough to beat freeza but not Piccolo???
He means that he wants Vegeta's help to beat Freeza, but not to worry
that Vegeta will be bad again, because Piccolo will handle it. I'd
assume, at least.
--
We miss you Jim. 3.19.86-10.01.02
AFD FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/shimofuri_k/afdfaq.html
Viahatuso
Viahatuso
> Mohammed wrote:
>
> > If you're disregarding filler scenes, than it seems pointless for me -
> > or anyone else - to make any assertions based on elements of fights
> > which may not have occured in the manga. It also creates additional
> > difficulty in evaluating Vegeta's strength during his battle with Kid
> > Buu - did the fight progess similarly in the manga, or were there any
> > substantial differences? Obviously Vegeta would still be losing, but
> > did he get in any strong blows at all?
>
> Who was using anime-only fight elements? Not me, anyway. The fight is a
bit more
> detailed in the anime, sure, but the general outcome is the same, and
Vegeta is
> still SSJ2 in the manga.
but without lightning streaks right ^_^
Viahatuso
If not for Gohan Freeza would have never gone final form.
Gohan's rampages would have seriously injured Vegeta or Piccolo if they were
directed at those characters.
Remember Gohan saved Piccolo form being torn to peces by Freezas two finger
attack.
Whether reeza was off Guard or not, he was currently pummeling Piccolo. If
Gohan was not that strong his punches owuld have done jack to Freeza, but
instead he meseed Feeza up bad, and Freeza was AFRAID of Gohan becuase Gohan
kept going-off and then returning from Freezas beatings looking fully healed
thanks to dende.
As a side note. Gohan also got soe good punches in on 1% FINAL FREEZA. Such
that Final Freeza went back to 100% to kick Gohan's ass. Those punches weer
wat more than Vegeta did at any given time.
Viahatuso
> > > That, or it was much easier and faster to unlock Krillin's potential
> > > because it was probably several orders of magnitude less than Gohan's.
> > > Maybe it would have taken a day for the Elder to release Gohan's full
> > > hidden power just like it did for the Old Kai?
> > >
> >
> > No. That's crazy. Gohan didn't have SSJ3 potential when he was on Namek.
> > Nothing is THAT hidden. ^_^
>
> Gohan's power level was about 1 early in the Saiya-jin saga but
> reached somewhere around 700 when he got angry. That demonstrates that
> Gohan was capable of hiding at least a seven-hundred-fold increase's
> worth of latent energy at that point in DBZ. Of course, that kind of
> increase on Namek - assuming it were possible - wouldn't have put him
> anywhere near the energy level of Mystic Gohan, but he would have been
> stronger than Frieza.
>
> power and not fixed.
Come on now. If Guru thought Gohanhad mor potentila he owuld have awakened
it. Gurru had full knowledge of Freeza, Vegeta and the Ginyu force on Namek.
At the least he could have Given Gohan a pl or more than 30,000.
But he didn't cuz there wasn't althat potential there. Anger is a bit
different from internal potential.
Viahatuso
No Gohan was less than 30,000 cuz that what Ginyu-inside-Goku's power level
was, and Gohan needed Gkou and Krillens help to fight him
Viahatuso
> he fought Dabura but he was SSJ2.
>
THAT'S WAT I'M SAYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Viahatuso
Piccolo doesn't really have to be aware.
Vegeta most likely had been training his base power level - kind of like
stacking bricks.
After seven years he had stack them higher than they used to be, to a point
where when he decides to go all out the
pinnacle of his power can reach much higher - i.e. up to the ssk2 level.
It makes sense. The basic athlete doesn't trai nall out every day in order
to get better, In fact you wouldn't get much better that way.
Gosheven
>> he fought Dabura but he was SSJ2.
>>
>
>
>
>THAT'S WAT I'M SAYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
But was Gohan really SSJ2 when he fought Dabura? I can only go by Funi's
version, but it seemed to me that he only went SSJ. He didn't seem to kick it
up until he was about to fight the final battle with Dabura (right after the
flashback scene of Gohan taking out Cell).
-Gosheven
Gosheven
>> Well, it worked for Cell when he was fighting Gohan. He came back at SSJ2
>> level, albeit somewhat weaker than Gohan's SSJ2.
>
>But Cell didn't die then. He just got very exploded.
>
Okay, I can give you that. However, and I know it's filler and all, during the
otherworld tournament, Goku seemed to exhibit more strength than he had when he
was alive. I'm talking about his fight with Pikkon. In fact, when he powered up
to SSJ, Goku had the lightning arcs around his body, perhaps suggesting SSJ2?
If so, then he had a definite power-up from the time of his death because we
all know that he had not achieved that level against Cell and Pikkon seemed to
be so much stronger that Cell.
-Gosheven
Shiranui Gen-An
"Gosheven" <gosh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030428175147...@mb-m24.aol.com...
Toriyama is very consistent (one of the few things he is on lol) about
lightning and SSJ2 in the manga, and there was none in this fight. In fact
the last time we saw Gohan with lightning was at the Budoukai when he went
SSJ2 for Kibito.
Gosheven
>when
>> >> he fought Dabura but he was SSJ2.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >THAT'S WAT I'M SAYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> >
>> >
>>
>> But was Gohan really SSJ2 when he fought Dabura? I can only go by Funi's
>> version, but it seemed to me that he only went SSJ. He didn't seem to kick
>it
>> up until he was about to fight the final battle with Dabura (right after
>the
>> flashback scene of Gohan taking out Cell).
>> -Gosheven
>
>Toriyama is very consistent (one of the few things he is on lol) about
>lightning and SSJ2 in the manga, and there was none in this fight. In fact
>the last time we saw Gohan with lightning was at the Budoukai when he went
>SSJ2 for Kibito.
>
That's what I thought. That's what i was saying, Gohan was not SSJ2 when he
fought Dabura. He was SSJ only.
-Gosheven
Mystic_GohaN
No, he was SSJ2 when he fought Dabura in the manga. Its stated that Gohan
was at full power and the only way to be at full power is to go to your
highest level, which is SSJ2.
Mystic_GohaN
Also note in the manga he never powered up. Toriyama only shows the lighting
the moment they powerup, not in every panal.
krn...@gmail.com
>
> > In the anime (I can't comment on the manga since I haven't read it),
> > Majin Vegeta has a distinctive dark outline around his eyes, bulging
> > veins and the characteristic Majin symbol on his forehead, all
> > features that he shares in common with Majin Spopovitch and Yamu. More
> > significantly, Vegeta also has the ability to transform into a Super
> > Saiya-jin 2, which implies a dramatic increase in power in comparison
> > to his form before being enchanted by Babidi.
>
> Considering he had reached USSJ before the Cell Games, and that he had seven
> years to do his intense-obsessive training...
>
> Also, he certainly looked like he was SSJ2 fighting Buu on Kaioushin's planet
> while Gokuu was making the Genkidama, even though he was clearly no longer
> "Ma-jin Vegeta".
> > After being sent back to Earth by Enma-Daio, Vegeta no longer
> > possessed the physical characteristics which seemed to define the
> > "Majin state" and appeared somewhat weaker from that point
> > onwards,IMHO, especially when compared to Goku's SSJ2 form.(whereas
> > Majin Vegeta was more evenly matched with SSJ2 Goku while they fought
> > on Earth.)
>
>
> My theory on the way Babidi's "Ma-jin" powerup works is that it doesn't really
> give anyone any power they don't already have, but instead just releases it
> full-throttle. And also, it acts on the evil within a person, and seems to get
> rid of any moral restraints, making them much more dangerous (kind of like the
> original Buu).
okay if Babidi's Magic doesn't give you powers than explain to me how Spopovich and Yamu had abilities beyond regular earthlings and wasn't Spopovich just a human being while fighting Mr Satan in the last Tournament and he was easily beaten by Hercule which made him the World Champion and that was right before Babidi unlocked Spopovich's hidden potential which made him able to fly and shoot energy blasts. Now if Babidi's Magic could do that for an earthling then tell what can it do for a Saiyan with hidden potential and how powerful would he become.
> > My question is, does irrefutable evidence exist that Vegeta retained
> > the ability to transform into an SSJ2 after dying? (such as electrical
> > discharges seen in his Super Saiyan aura)
>
> > Furthermore, if Vegeta was indeed still able to transform into an SSJ2
> > after his death, couldn't that power be attributed to his death and a
> > subsequent Saiya-jin power up instead of the continued effect of
> > Babidi's Majin spell?
>
> brink of death. Coming back from death itself is a bit different, and I can't
> think of much evidence supporting that it works the same. I mean, I don't think
> Gokuu or Vegeta suddenly powered up when their halos disappeared.
>
> But Vegeta was shown dead with his halo, and he was clearly not "Ma-jin"
> anymore, like Babidi's spell wore off the minute Vegeta died, so I don't think
> this matters anyway.
> > Lastly, I have read a few of the older posts on this newsgroup and I
> > have noticed that some people seem to believe that being absorbed by
> > Majin Buu has the effect of nullifying magical power increases, which
> > is cited as the cause of Vegetto's defusion and the speculated loss of
> > Mystic Gohan's power-up. If Vegeta retained his Majin power-up after
> > returning to Earth, wouldn't it have been lost when Vegeta was
> > wandering around the inside of Buu? (assuming the aforementioned
> > theory is correct.)
>
> died, so it's kind of a moot point.