Humans and Toons (Was: Back to TDA: What is Human?)
Negaduck9
jabiz...@wt.net (Betty R.) writes:
>> > Can anyone think of any additional furrytoon/humantoon pairings?
>>
>> Not offhand,
>
>Oh! I had almost forgotten the most famous furrytoon/humantoon pairing
of
>all! Betty Boop and Bimbo the Dog! (That silly Fearless Fred was just a
>"beard" so the popular toon star Betty couldn't be accused of
"bestiality"
>by narrow-minded meats and toons.) ;-)
Actually, Betty was originally a dog too! She originally had a black
nose. The studio gave her a species-change operation, though. I wonder
how soon after that the studio split her and Bimbo up.
--- NEGADUCK
"Ahh, A beautiful dove. The symbol of peace. Maybe I should feed it...
To a CAT!"
The Negapage: http://members.aol.com/negaduck9/negapage.htm
Betty R.
In article <19970706183...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
nega...@aol.com (Negaduck9) wrote:
> Actually, Betty was originally a dog too! She originally had a black
> nose. The studio gave her a species-change operation, though. I wonder
> how soon after that the studio split her and Bimbo up.
A very good point. Although she started her career as a human/dog toon,
Betty will always be remembered as a purely human toon.
"Originally, Betty was a toon-mix of dog/girl -- she was a human toon with
a tiny, black nose and little, floppy dog ears (she later wore large hoop
earrings). She only appeared this way in a few cartoons that were made in
1930. I suppose that the studio figured she'd be more popular as a human
toon girl, so they called in a plastic surgeon and gave her get a ear-job
and a nose-job.
As for Bimbo, Paramount cancelled the poor guy's contract in 1934 (along
with the rest of Betty's bit-player, talking animal pals). Betty and
Bimbo had been planning on being wed in a ceremony at the Temple Israel in
Los Angeles (Betty was Jewish, you know), but this idea got nixed by the
studio who feared Betty's career as America's cartoon sweetheart would be
ruined by her being "married," and to an animal toon, at that.
Broken-hearted, Betty and Bimbo split up, but remained close friends. In
1935, the studio saddled her with a muscle-bound, but effeminate-faced,
"screen boyfriend" named "Fearless Fred." (BTW, there was a persistent
rumor that Fred was gay.)
Also at this time, Paramount took away Betty's sexy, short-hemmed, low-cut
black outfits because they were afraid that the Hays Code censors would
deem the outfits too suggestive, thus causing bad press for the studio.
The scripts for Betty's short films also became more generic, sadly losing
much of their original surreal comedy and whimsical satire."
======
The above section is (c) 1997 by Dr. Betty Roget and is an excerpt from
her research for a pending volume on the History of Toons in the U.S.
Motion Picture Industry prior to the 1940s. The data presented really
*is* based on real facts, but please take it with a grain of salt, and a
dash of humor. ;-)
-- Betty R.
(Classic Hollywood animation fan and toon researcher -- anyone got any old
books on the history or architecture of Los Angeles/Hollywood?)
____
(remove TOON to reply via email)
Batya "The Toon" Levin
Betty R. wrote:
>
> > In article <33BF0F...@hotmail.com>, "Batya \"The Toon\" Levin"
> > <baty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Can anyone think of any additional furrytoon/humantoon pairings?
> > Not offhand,
> Oh! I had almost forgotten the most famous furrytoon/humantoon pairing of
> all! Betty Boop and Bimbo the Dog! (That silly Fearless Fred was just a
> "beard" so the popular toon star Betty couldn't be accused of "bestiality"
> by narrow-minded meats and toons.) ;-)
*laugh* Of course.
> > but what about toon/meat pairings? Such as, say, if Jessica
> > Rabbit had actually seduced Eddie Valiant?
> Yeah. Personally, I think that some of the more "adventuresome" meats
> might have had sex with toons (or at least fantasized about it). I
> imagine some meat humans sneaking down to a sleazy Toontown bordello for
> some "daring" Saturday night fun (remember, Toontown is a dangerous place
> for meats). I suppose that some humans might have even secretly desired
> to "be" toons.
Well, yes. *dry chuckle* Anyone here read "Jabberwocky In Toontown"?
Check it out at http://www.primenet.com/~ioseph/jaberwha.htm .
[snip]
> BTW, I don't follow the idea that toons are made of ink and paint --
Oh? Then how do you explain that their one nemesis is DIP, the chemical
solution used to erase errors in ink and paint?
[snip]
> Perhaps we could chat about this? I'm new to this group (but not DA, I'm
> a "Tailspin" fan) but I'd welcome seeing posts about *anything* instead of
> those silly-ass g*y D*sney threads.
You're a Tailspin fan? Really? *offers her hand* There's too darn few
of us here!
[snip]
> > (who may have a vested interest in the outcome of this argument....<g>)
>
> Oh? Why is that?
*looks innocent* Oh, no reason.
--Batya "The Toon" Levin
( ^^^^^^^^ )
Cebarat
Betty responded, to my mention of POGO's Miss Ma'm'selle Hepzibah as a
particularly attractive Toon:
>Oh! I just adored Mlle. Hepzibah! Remember that storyline (from the
>early '70s) from the original comic stips where she made a play for Pogo?
>I always wanted to see a Hepzibah/Pepe romance, too.
Uh... which storyline was this? Was this one ever collected? I've seen
several storylines in which other denizens of the swamp tried to get Pogo
and Hepzibah together for whatever reason, also one in which Pogo got
jealous because another critter (a cat) was showing H. attention. But
Hepzibah actively "making a play" for Pogo? Do you have details?
The Hepzibah/Pepe romance is such a "natural" that I'm surprised Warners
Toon fans haven't suggested it more often. It would be fun, too, to have
TINY TOONS' Fifi La Fume regard Hepzibah as a sort of "mentor" and "ideal"
to which she can aspire. Fifi is a more aggressive personality, but as
she matures she may regard H.'s "approach" as better suited to achieving
her ideal of snaring a mate. She certainly would appreciate H.'s looks as
an "ideal"...
Betty suggested:
>Hmmmm....Mlle. Hepzibah and Don Carnage -- now that would be a very
>attractive toon pairing, plus, you'd have the battle of the
incredibly-odd
>foreign accents.
To which Negaduck replied:
>Heh heh ... Spanglish and Deep Southern French. That IS a strange combo!
Actually, Don Karnage MIGHT not have as difficult a time conversing with
Miss Ma'm'selle as one might think! Given his occupation and habitual
dress, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he's spent a
considerable amount of time in the Cajun country. (The "pirate outfit"
recalls the famous freebooter Jean Lafitte, who helped Andrew Jackson win
the battle of New Orleans.) So he's probably used to unusual
"combinations" of accents/languages. In fact, he would probably have a
great time conversing with ALL the swamp critters... especially Churchy La
Femme, who started life in the POGO comic books as a pirate!
A related question: Do you think DARKWING DUCK's Jambalaya Jake and Gumbo
have ever managed to find their way to the Okefenokee? They would seem to
fit right into that milieu. Of course, they would probably be more
interested in EATING the residents than in making friends...
Chris Barat
ceb...@aol.com
Homepage http://members.aol.com/cebarat/home.htm
pair...@usit.net
On 8 Jul 1997 01:45:51 GMT, jabiz...@wt.net (Betty R.) wrote:
>In article <33C191...@hotmail.com>, "Batya \"The Toon\" Levin"
><baty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Betty R. wrote:
>
>> > BTW, I don't follow the idea that toons are made of ink and paint --
>> Oh? Then how do you explain that their one nemesis is DIP, the chemical
>> solution used to erase errors in ink and paint?
>Oh, that's an *easy* one! DIP is simply ACID. :-)
But DIP is not an acid; it's a mixture of several solvents (nasty ones
at that), that will cause all sorts of nasty stuff to happen to
people, but not "melt the flesh from their bones" type of reaction
you'd get with concentrated acid.
So sez Ms Science as she gets booted to the stratosphere. ;)p
>I just think that
>it's more fun if the toons are "flesh and bone" -- makes for more
>possibilities of interesting interaction with real-life humans, real-life
>objects etc. My toons are "flesh" but it's a different type than human
>flesh -- it's definitely not ink or paint.
Eh. I don't personally hold with the "toons as actors" thing. It's
fun for certain things, but when I watch a series, such as Darkwing,
Talespin or Aladdin, the characters are real, the stories are real.
Much like a book with moving illustrations. Not that I can't let
myself have fun with the other ideas, but that's just my preference.
<shrug> I feel it's easier to get closer, more involved with the
story if it's about real characters and not just actors in a role.
>Yes, I'm primarily a Tailspin fan when it comes Disney Afternoon shows. I
>also enjoy the duck shows, but nothin' holds a candle to good ol'
>Tailspin. Besides, I just adore that handsome Don Carnage! I can't
>decide if it's the dreadful accent or the lovely, red-furred tail that
>makes him so irresistible, though. ;-)
Karnage: "That's KARnage. With a 'K' as in ka-nife." ;)
At least she didn't mention the big Karnage debate. Which I'm not
going to mention, either.
Cheers,
--
Wendy Lee, pai...@usit.net (remove the '*' when replying)
DAFT Archive: http://www.foxfur.com/~daft/daft.html
Fan femme: http://www.public.usit.net/pairaka/index.html
pair...@usit.net
On 8 Jul 1997 12:09:35 GMT, ceb...@aol.com (Cebarat) wrote:
>Betty suggested:
>>Hmmmm....Mlle. Hepzibah and Don Carnage -- now that would be a very
>>attractive toon pairing, plus, you'd have the battle of the
>incredibly-odd
>>foreign accents.
>
>To which Negaduck replied:
>>Heh heh ... Spanglish and Deep Southern French. That IS a strange combo!
>
>Actually, Don Karnage MIGHT not have as difficult a time conversing with
>Miss Ma'm'selle as one might think!
Also considering the fact that Karny's accent seems to be a strange
mixture of Cuban, Spanish and Italian, mixed with his penchant for
malaprops, he'd have no difficulty understanding an equally mixed
accent. ;)
>Given his occupation and habitual
>dress, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he's spent a
>considerable amount of time in the Cajun country.
Hmmm...Karnage the Swamp ***.
> (The "pirate outfit"
>recalls the famous freebooter Jean Lafitte, who helped Andrew Jackson win
>the battle of New Orleans.) So he's probably used to unusual
>"combinations" of accents/languages. In fact, he would probably have a
>great time conversing with ALL the swamp critters... especially Churchy La
>Femme, who started life in the POGO comic books as a pirate!
Heh. I might have to check this out. I'll be sure to pump you for
info in San Diego.
Betty R.
In article <33c2ed53...@news.usit.net>, pairaka*@usit.net wrote:
>
> But DIP is not an acid; it's a mixture of several solvents (nasty ones
> at that), that will cause all sorts of nasty stuff to happen to
> people, but not "melt the flesh from their bones" type of reaction
> you'd get with concentrated acid.
DIP is *still* a solvent, and would be somewhat similar to acid. Close
enough for me. :-) I think DIP would at least *burn* human skin
(remember, you didn't see any humans have direct or prolonged skin contact
with DIP in the film). And I said that toon "flesh" is rather different
than human flesh. Sure, they can still "squash and stretch," but if they
are "flesh" there is the potential for physical harm, illness and injury
that puts a new, and more serious, spin on story possibilities. Yeah, DIP
could do serious harm to a toon while it might only burn a human. Of
course, if you left a human in a barrel of DIP, even he would die after a
while.
> >My toons are "flesh" but it's a different type than human
> >flesh -- it's definitely not ink or paint.
>
> Eh. I don't personally hold with the "toons as actors" thing. It's
> fun for certain things, but when I watch a series, such as Darkwing,
> Talespin or Aladdin, the characters are real, the stories are real.
> Much like a book with moving illustrations. Not that I can't let
> myself have fun with the other ideas, but that's just my preference.
> <shrug> I feel it's easier to get closer, more involved with the
> story if it's about real characters and not just actors in a role.
I agree with you that the stories and toons are "real." The actor toons
that I referred to are the famous toons who lived in Toontown and worked
in the film industry were they were employed as actors and extras. For
example, Baloo the Bear was a pilot, but Mickey Mouse just happened to be
a famous actor (of course, Mickey can also have "real" adventures, too,
just like anyone else). Just like human actors, toons actors have their
"movie-star" personas which different from their normal day-to-day
personas. Darkwing, has a secret personal as a crimefighter, which is
slightly different from his "normal," uncostumed persona. Do you see
what I mean here?
Since I work in the entertainment business, and am fascinated with
Hollywood films and the history of the motion picture industry, then I
like to create storylines that revolve around the toons and toon actors
who lived and worked within the Hollywood/LA film community. Sure, I like
action/adventure and romance stories -- but I also enjoy the backstage
drama of a movie set and behind-the-scenes stories about the powerful
studios.
> Karnage: "That's KARnage. With a 'K' as in ka-nife." ;)
Heehee! How miss Tailspin. <sigh>
> At least she didn't mention the big Karnage debate. Which I'm not
> going to mention, either.
Oh, I remember it. I don't care what ol' Karny is -- I just know that he
was the main reason that I enjoyed Tailspin so much. <sigh>
-- Betty
(who now has all the "Hercules" Happy Meal toys and plates, except for toy
No. 10 (Hades). Only *one more* flippin' Happy Meal to go!!!!! IMHO,
McD's food bites!)
Batya "The Toon" Levin
> In article <33c2ed53...@news.usit.net>, pairaka*@usit.net wrote:
> >
> > But DIP is not an acid; it's a mixture of several solvents (nasty ones
> > at that), that will cause all sorts of nasty stuff to happen to
> > people, but not "melt the flesh from their bones" type of reaction
> > you'd get with concentrated acid.
And Betty R. countered:
> DIP is *still* a solvent, and would be somewhat similar to acid. Close
> enough for me. :-) I think DIP would at least *burn* human skin
> (remember, you didn't see any humans have direct or prolonged skin contact
> with DIP in the film). And I said that toon "flesh" is rather different
> than human flesh. Sure, they can still "squash and stretch," but if they
> are "flesh" there is the potential for physical harm, illness and injury
> that puts a new, and more serious, spin on story possibilities. Yeah, DIP
> could do serious harm to a toon while it might only burn a human. Of
> course, if you left a human in a barrel of DIP, even he would die after a
> while.
Actually, in the famous Cut Scenes from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie
Valiant used DIP to wash off the toon pighead that the weasels gave
him. It melted the toon flesh and left his alone.
When it comes to stories, of course a toon can be injured -- but depending
on the story. It's simply impossible to get permanently hurt in a Warner
Bros. cartoon, even if you get blown up, electrocuted, shot, squashed under
falling rocks, and fall from impossibly high cliffs, all in the space of
fifteen minutes.
Disney 'toons tend not to do this, though -- well, Goofy suffers injury
without getting hurt, and Bonkers is of course a toon, but in general,
it is possible for a Disney toon to get hurt, or even die. So there must be
some difference in breed between them. (Assuming, naturally, that they
aren't all just actors.)
--Batya "The Toon" Levin
(who knows the truth about us toons, but is trying to confuse you)
Betty R.
> In article <33C4CA...@hotmail.com>, "Batya \"The Toon\" Levin"
> <baty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > And Betty R. wrote:
> >
> > DIP is *still* a solvent, and would be somewhat similar to acid. Close
> > enough for me. :-) I think DIP would at least *burn* human skin
> > (remember, you didn't see any humans have direct or prolonged skin contact
> > with DIP in the film).
> Actually, in the famous Cut Scenes from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie
> Valiant used DIP to wash off the toon pighead that the weasels gave
> him. It melted the toon flesh and left his alone.
Another easy one! It was *diluted* DIP (like acetone) -- it won't hurt
ya' if you don't leave it on your skin very long. Or maybe it was just
turpentine. I don't know if I would consider this scene "canon" since it
was (wisely) not included in the final film. :-)
I'm curious, do you really prefer that Toons be "ink and paint" vs. being
some sort of "flesh" creatures (like fairies)? I prefer making my toons
"flesh" since it makes for better story opportunities, plus there's the
potential for physical harm with more serious consequences.
> When it comes to stories, of course a toon can be injured -- but depending
> on the story. It's simply impossible to get permanently hurt in a Warner
> Bros. cartoon, even if you get blown up, electrocuted, shot, squashed under
> falling rocks, and fall from impossibly high cliffs, all in the space of
> fifteen minutes.
> Disney 'toons tend not to do this, though -- well, Goofy suffers injury
> without getting hurt, and Bonkers is of course a toon, but in general,
> it is possible for a Disney toon to get hurt, or even die. So there must be
> some difference in breed between them. (Assuming, naturally, that they
> aren't all just actors.)
In my Toon Universe, all the famous cartoon shorts are the products of
Toon actors who were under contract by studios like Disney, MGM and Warner
Brothers. Remember how many times one of the Warner Bros. characters
would get pissed off during the filming of a cartoon and tear up their
contract with the studios? I remember seeing Daffy, Bugs, Elmer all do
this at one time, or another.
As for toon violence -- in my universe, it's still much harder to
physically hurt or kill a toon (compared to a human), but you still can.
Part of the trick (for toons) is "being ready" for the blow. If a toon is
caught off-guard, then he could be hurt. (Remember how Harry Houdini was
killed when he was only punched in the stomach? -- he wasn't ready for the
blow, and so he was hurt.) The more extreme violence you see in the old
cartoons probably utilized a lot of trick photography, props, and stunt
doubles. Do you really think that MGM would dream of endangering a
valuable actor Toon like Tom the Cat by dropping a piano on him? :-)
-- Betty R.
(Remove TOON to reply via email)
Motley
> In my Toon Universe, all the famous cartoon shorts are the products of
> Toon actors who were under contract by studios like Disney, MGM and Warner
> Brothers. Remember how many times one of the Warner Bros. characters
> would get pissed off during the filming of a cartoon and tear up their
> contract with the studios? I remember seeing Daffy, Bugs, Elmer all do
> this at one time, or another.
It seems that the Disney characters did not have that problem. The only
character I remember ever having problems with his contract would be
Donald Duck. Maybe Disney justy paid better and/or treated their talent
better than Warner?
Betty R.
In article <33C59D...@here.com>, Motley <n...@here.com> wrote:
Well, Warner never did appreciate their toon talent (at least not until
very recently, when they finally figured out how to market their toon
stars' likenesses), but surely you know that it's been rumored that ol'
Walt was a major-league cheapskate. Disney probably gave his toon actors
slightly better perks and perhaps a modicum of respect. And toons like
Mickey and Goofy were pretty easy-going guys and not very likely to rock
the boat.
Besides, if you refused to toe the line, they'd call up some anti-union
goons and have 'em come over and gently "persuade you," with a crowbar!
;-)
-- Betty
(who greatly admires Unca Walt, even if it's been alleged that he really
was a penny-pinchin,' employee-exploitin,' foul-mouthed jerkola.)
________