Black and Blue
Hoyt
In writing pens:
Why is blue ink considered less formal than black ink?
Is there a law proscribing blue ink in legal documnets and official forms?
Or is the requirement for black ink just some anal retentive controlling
behavior?
Are there "rules" concerning other colors of ink?
73,
Hoyt
Jef Bateman
On 6 Apr 1997, Hoyt wrote:
>
> In writing pens:
>
> Why is blue ink considered less formal than black ink?
>
> Is there a law proscribing blue ink in legal documnets and official forms?
>
There are probably some historical reasons for this having to do with the
rarity of "pure" black pigment. However, when I worked in a casino, we
had to use black ink because blue ink does not copy as well. There are
some light blue inks that cannot be photocopied at all, except with
special equipment. We had a guy who would fill out paperwork with blue
ink every once in a while. we would have to go back and redo everything
he did. I cannot figure out exactly what his problem was, he just could
not learn.
Jeffrey A. Bateman \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
Arizona State University \ All this is a dream. \
Religious Studies \ Still, examine it with \
Graduate Student \ a few experiments. \
e-mail jef...@asu.edu \ -- Michael Faraday \
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lizz Braver
In article <01bc42d1$2d87bdc0$ac28...@worldnet.worldnet.att.net>,
hdu...@worldnet.att.net says...
>
>
>In writing pens:
>
>Why is blue ink considered less formal than black ink?
>
>Is there a law proscribing blue ink in legal documnets and official
forms?
>
controlling
>behavior?
>
>Are there "rules" concerning other colors of ink?
Black ink photocopies better than any other colored ink. For legal
documents, medical records, and the like, this is an important
consideration.
Lizz Braver, R.N.
Drew Carter
> >In writing pens:
> >
> >Why is blue ink considered less formal than black ink?
> >Is there a law proscribing blue ink in legal documnets and official
> forms?
> >Or is the requirement for black ink just some anal retentive
> controlling
> >behavior?
> >Are there "rules" concerning other colors of ink?
> Black ink photocopies better than any other colored ink. For legal
> documents, medical records, and the like, this is an important
> consideration.
For reasons unknown to me, teachers use red ink while grading papers.
Also, accountants (historaclly) use red ink on the accounting ledgers when
business turns bad. I've been told that red ink represents blood being
spilled, but have no idea if this is true.
sj...@aol.com
"Hoyt" <hdu...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Are there "rules" concerning other colors of ink?
I have a friend who went off, just after the suppression of
the anti-democracy movement, to live and teach in China
for several years. He notified his friends and family before
leaving that he's write letters in black ink if he was able
to express himself freely, in blue ink if there were only
minor shadings or omissions, and in green ink if he had
to write the opposite of the truth to get letters past the
censors.
As it turned out, his letters were in black ink, and he had
very few problems.
<<Why is blue ink considered less formal than black ink?>>
Well, probably for the same reason that members of the
old school look askance at dinner jackets in colors other
than black or midnight blue, which is probably as you say...
<<...just some anal retentive controlling behavior?>>
We all have various markers and signals for distinguishing
those who are Not Our Kind, Dear from those who are.
It's interesting to speculate why that is so, and how certain
criteria develop or are perpetuated, and whether it is a
good thing for a supposedly classless society - but it's
hard to dispute the fact that such markers exist.
Regards from Deborah
http://members.aol.com/SJF37/homepage-sjf37-index.html
Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than
curse the darkness. -- (Terry Pratchett, Men At Arms)
Shack Toms
"Hoyt" <hdu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Is there a law proscribing blue ink in legal documnets and official forms?
The only time it was ever an issue for me was when I was applying
for a patent (US 5,530,435) and subsequently assigning rights to
it to the company that hired me to develop it. I was told by
the company's lawyers to sign everything with blue ink. I
assumed it was so that the original signature would be distinct
from any photocopies.
Shack
Michael E. Cohen
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.970406195829.24506A-100000@goose>, Drew Carter
<dca...@ycp.edu> wrote:
> For reasons unknown to me, teachers use red ink while grading papers.
> Also, accountants (historaclly) use red ink on the accounting ledgers when
> business turns bad. I've been told that red ink represents blood being
> spilled, but have no idea if this is true.
It's pretty simple to explain why teachers use red ink--it is much more
visible against the black or blue ink that the paper is usually written
in. It has nothing to do with blood (I actually graded a paper with blood,
once: it looked like brown ink when it dried).
--
Michael E. Cohen
a.k.a....@netcom.com
Ben Ostrowsky
I can just see it now, in black ink: "Dear Family: Life in China is
wonderful. Food is plentiful and delicious, I love my job, and everyone
is very polite to me. The only problem I've encountered is that I can't
seem to find any green ink."
Ben
who's paraphrasing an old Jewish joke
--
A luser is someone who returns a perfectly good hammer
to the hardware store saying "There's something wrong
with it. I keep hitting my thumb." -- Joe Bednorz
John Krueger
Hoyt wrote:
>
> In writing pens:
>
Probably because official documents frequently need to be photocopied.
(See below.)
> Is there a law proscribing blue ink in legal documnets and official forms?
I don't know about this one, it may just be a requirement made by the
individual institutions (courts, law firms, hospitals, law enforcement
agencies, etc.) IANAL.
> Or is the requirement for black ink just some anal retentive controlling
> behavior?
>
> Are there "rules" concerning other colors of ink?
Blue ink may not show up on all photocopies, depending on the
photocopier and the particular ink, because many black&white photocopy
machines use green(ish) light to illuminate the origional. Blue ink
may reflect enough of the light that it doesn't show up well on the
copy, but black ink is going to work on any photocopier.
--
-JJK
Matthew D Eayre
In article <5i95cf$3...@wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us>,
Lizz Braver <di...@ohww.norman.ok.us> wrote:
>In article <01bc42d1$2d87bdc0$ac28...@worldnet.worldnet.att.net>,
>hdu...@worldnet.att.net says...
>>
>
>documents, medical records, and the like, this is an important
>consideration.
>
our theses signed, one friend commented how her advisor searched for a
blue pen before signing. The only reason I could speculate was so it
would be immediately clear that it was the original title page and not a
photocopy.
--
Matthew D Eayre I'm not not really this stupid;
mea...@umich.edu I just pretend to be on the net.
Formerly mea...@iastate.edu
Hoyt
Drew Carter <dca...@ycp.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.96.970406195829.24506A-100000@goose>...
>
> For reasons unknown to me, teachers use red ink while grading papers.
You will be pleased to know that they are now teaching teachers to avoid
using red ink at all.
73,
Hoyt
Hoyt
Matthew D Eayre <mea...@choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote in article
<5ibbl7$s...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>...
The only reason I could speculate was so it
> would be immediately clear that it was the original title page and not a
> photocopy.
This has always been my practice, especiall when I needed an "original"
signed document that had been photocopied. the blue ink was proof of
"original signing".
73,
Hoyt
Hoyt
Shack Toms <sh...@esinet.net> wrote in article
<335e0dfe....@news.esinet.net>...
> "Hoyt" <hdu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Is there a law proscribing blue ink in legal documnets and official
forms?
>
> The only time it was ever an issue for me was when I was applying
> for a patent (US 5,530,435) and subsequently assigning rights to
> it to the company that hired me to develop it. I was told by
> the company's lawyers to sign everything with blue ink. I
> assumed it was so that the original signature would be distinct
> from any photocopies.
Please share the story.
73,
Hoyt
Jim Balter
Michael E. Cohen wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.970406195829.24506A-100000@goose>, Drew Carter
> <dca...@ycp.edu> wrote:
>
> > business turns bad. I've been told that red ink represents blood being
> > spilled, but have no idea if this is true.
>
> It's pretty simple to explain why teachers use red ink--it is much more
> visible against the black or blue ink that the paper is usually written
> in.
Red is also psychologically an "alert" color, which is in fact related
to the color of blood.
> It has nothing to do with blood (I actually graded a paper with blood,
> once: it looked like brown ink when it dried).
Uh, whose blood?
--
<J Q B>
Michael E. Cohen
In article <334A16...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
> Michael E. Cohen wrote:
> > It's pretty simple to explain why teachers use red ink--it is much more
> > visible against the black or blue ink that the paper is usually written
> > in.
>
> Red is also psychologically an "alert" color, which is in fact related
> to the color of blood.
>
> > It has nothing to do with blood (I actually graded a paper with blood,
> > once: it looked like brown ink when it dried).
>
> Uh, whose blood?
I wish there were a gruesome story to give you...but, alas! I was a young
grad student (about 20 years ago), I had a nosebleed, there was a stack of
papers to grade, and I figured, oh, what the hell.
Michael
John Grimes
Drew Carter <dca...@ycp.edu> writes:
>> >In writing pens:
>> >
>> >Why is blue ink considered less formal than black ink?
>> >Is there a law proscribing blue ink in legal documnets and official
>> forms?
>> >Or is the requirement for black ink just some anal retentive
>> controlling
>> >behavior?
>> >Are there "rules" concerning other colors of ink?
>> Black ink photocopies better than any other colored ink. For legal
>> documents, medical records, and the like, this is an important
>> consideration.
>For reasons unknown to me, teachers use red ink while grading papers.
>Also, accountants (historaclly) use red ink on the accounting ledgers when
>business turns bad. I've been told that red ink represents blood being
>spilled, but have no idea if this is true.
I do the final editing for pretty much anything leaving our research
department, and I find that I get a much higher compliance with my
'suggestions' when I use red ink. I've always thought I was tapping
in on some sort of respect-the-teacher boogeyman in the writer's heart.
I like the blood being spilled idea, though.
john
Todd Canaday
Hoyt wrote:
>
> Drew Carter <dca...@ycp.edu> wrote in article
> <Pine.SOL.3.96.970406195829.24506A-100000@goose>...
> >
>
> using red ink at all.
>
> 73,
> Hoyt
Why are they teaching teachers to not use red?
John Grimes
m...@sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>> Blue ink may not show up on all photocopies, depending on the
>> photocopier and the particular ink, because many black&white photocopy
>> machines use green(ish) light to illuminate the origional. Blue ink
>> may reflect enough of the light that it doesn't show up well on the
>> copy, but black ink is going to work on any photocopier.
>In order for this to be an issue, the copier would have to use *blue*
>light. Perhaps some early ones did, but I find it very hard to believe
>that anyone would make a copier today that would not be capable of
>copying the most common color of ink. I've certainly never had the
>experience of photocopying something and seeing blue-ink writing
>disappear.
Although, the pasteup board that artists use to lay out stuff
has faint blue lines on it for guidance. They use the particular
blue that they do because it does not photocopy.
john
tom
Somebody presumably said...
> > Red is also psychologically an "alert" color, which is in fact related
> > to the color of blood.
Which leads to the obvious question: Are the stop signs on Vulcan green?
--
PGP key available from better keyservers everywhere.
"In reality, the animal rights movement has
elevated ignorance about the natural world
almost to the level of a philosophical principle."
-- Richard Coniff, conservationist,
Audubon Magazine (92(6):120-133;1990)
Hoyt
John Grimes wrote in article <5igk3q$7...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>...
>
>Although, the pasteup board that artists use to lay out stuff
>has faint blue lines on it for guidance. They use the particular
>blue that they do because it does not photocopy.
Yeras ago, someone sold special blue checks and special blue pens that
would show up on microfilm as being bank, but otherwise were legal and
negotiable. Just the thing for those who take secrecy tp paranoid heights
or those who have something to hide.
73,
Hoyt
Mark Brader
> Blue ink may not show up on all photocopies, depending on the
> photocopier and the particular ink, because many black&white photocopy
> machines use green(ish) light to illuminate the origional. Blue ink
> may reflect enough of the light that it doesn't show up well on the
> copy, but black ink is going to work on any photocopier.
In order for this to be an issue, the copier would have to use *blue*
light. Perhaps some early ones did, but I find it very hard to believe
that anyone would make a copier today that would not be capable of
copying the most common color of ink. I've certainly never had the
experience of photocopying something and seeing blue-ink writing
disappear.
--
Mark Brader "... we still feel that color is hard
m...@sq.com on the eyes for so long a picture ..."
SoftQuad Inc., Toronto -- N.Y. Times review of GONE WITH THE WIND
My text in this article is in the public domain.
sj...@aol.com
In article <5iapul$lt4$1...@news.usf.edu>,
bost...@luna.usf.edu (Ben Ostrowsky) writes:
>I can just see it now, in black ink: "Dear Family: Life in China
is wonderful. Food is plentiful and delicious, I love my job, and
everyone is very polite to me. The only problem I've encountered
is that I can't seem to find any green ink."<
*snort*
That would have been a hoot, in a grim sort of way!
Actually, there was never any problem - not even when I sent
tapes of NPR broadcasts, which he was able to play for his
students who were eager to improve their English and learn
more about American culture. I called the U.S. customs
people before shipping off a tape of the broadcast about
the U.S.'s invasion of Panama, but they didn't anticipate any
trouble from their opposite numbers in Beijing, and in fact
there wasn't any.
Regards from Deborah
http://members.aol.com/SJF37/homepage-sjf37-index.html
http://members.aol.com/SJF37/index.html
http://members.aol.com/SJF37/web-page-links-index.html
sj...@aol.com
t...@icanect.net (tom) writes:
>> > Red is also psychologically an "alert" color, which is in
fact related to the color of blood. << <
>Which leads to the obvious question: Are the stop signs on
Vulcan green?<
Could somebody take young Tom aside, and explain as
tactfully as possible that all that stuff on Star Trek is
fictional?
Jim Balter
Steven Peterson wrote:
>
> The irrascible Tom wrote:
>
> : Which leads to the obvious question: Are the stop signs on
> : Vulcan green?
>
> And The inimitable Deborah replied:
>
> : Could somebody take young Tom aside, and explain as
> : tactfully as possible that all that stuff on Star Trek is
> : fictional?
>
> back of my mind for the last couple of days, since it's kinda
> non-reality based:
>
> Say I suddenly develop the power of telepathy, how likely would
> it be that I could "read" or understand the thoughts of a person
> who natively spoke a language foreign to mine?
It's your fantasy, so you get to pick your own impossible powers.
--
<J Q B>
Hoyt
Todd Canaday wrote in article <5if7k2$hru$1...@news7.gte.net>...
Because of the negative emotional impact of RED. Even if you wrote a
compliment in RED, the student would react negatively. It's the
ring-the-bell-and-salivate thing.
73,
Hoyt
>
Justin Hiltscher
Steven Peterson wrote:
>
> The irrascible Tom wrote:
>
> : Which leads to the obvious question: Are the stop signs on
> : Vulcan green?
>
> And The inimitable Deborah replied:
>
> : Could somebody take young Tom aside, and explain as
> : tactfully as possible that all that stuff on Star Trek is
> : fictional?
>
> Hmmmmmm.....I wonder if I should ask a question I've had in the
> back of my mind for the last couple of days, since it's kinda
> non-reality based:
>
> Say I suddenly develop the power of telepathy, how likely would
> it be that I could "read" or understand the thoughts of a person
> who natively spoke a language foreign to mine?
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> "And you know, language is a virus from outer space...
> and hearing your name is better than seeing your face." -- Laurie Anderson
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
What's your definition of telepathy? For instance, we could define
'telepathy' to mean simple mind-to-mind communication, but this could
broadly be (re)interpreted as all communication that is successful. So
we say communication thru "non-normal" means (i.e. no visual or audial
communication, no touch communication) Interesting thing about that
definition. If you actually developed telepathy, and it was something
that could be widespread, it would become normal means, thus not fitting
the definition... see?
To answer your multilingual question, I would have to say: depends on
implementation. for example, if we communicated in imagined visual
images, instead of imagined words in our minds, then no problem. Before
we can do direct mind-mind communication, we humans have to figure out
how we think. And you can visit sci.psych groups to see how much of a
consesus there is on that!
Its kinda equivalent to two computers trying to talk to eachother,
without beforehand knowing, "Oh, he speaks TCP/IP". (Which is why I
felt myself cringing as I watched the protagonist in Independance Day
link up with the alien mothership central computer. There's just stuff
I can't just suspend my disbelief about!)
Could happen. Don't know if we'll see it in this lifetime tho.
Justin Hiltscher
fastrada
Another speculation on telepathy: it could be automatic understandingif (1) telepathy
existed (doubtful, in my opinion, because it would probably have beceom a evolutionary
advantage), and (2) Noam Chimsky is right about humans being born with an innate language
sense in the brain (pardons if I just screwed up his theory).
Regards,
Joe
Mhwojt
While, as mentioned above, some blues don't copy well, and some are
designed specifically not to copy, the main objection to blue ink goes all
the way back to Thermofax thermal copiers, which have been obsolete for 30
years now.
John L. Freiler
: > And The inimitable Deborah replied:
: >
: > : Could somebody take young Tom aside, and explain as
: > : tactfully as possible that all that stuff on Star Trek is
: > : fictional?
I just noticed this:
Deborah, I'm very sorry to have to correct you, but you are quite mistaken
in thinking that Star Trek is fictional. It is quite real: I have seen
it.
Now, the characters presented therein, and the stories told: those are
fictional, but Star Trek is very real and bring Paramount quite a few very
real bucks.
As for stop signs on the fictional planet Vulcan being green: It would
certainly make sense that a green blooded race would associate the color
green with blood and thus have a 'green=distress' mentality, but there is
another factor in the red for stop signs color choice: Red is highly
contrasting to the colors generally found around it. On earth, Green is
a general default for the color of the world (at least the land portions
of it; witness the most popular choice for camoflage in the world
militaries) and thus a red stop sign is likely to be a good contrast for
the wherever it is placed.
If the hypothetical planet has the same general background colors as
earth, then green would be a poor choice for a sign that should be easilly
seen. Vulcan as portrayed in the show, is however a vegetation-poor
planet (plants probably cost too much) shown as a rocky reddish brown in
color: therfore a bright green sighn should generally be rather visible.
John
Reformed Trekkie
John L. Freiler
And then I actually read what Deborah Wrote and realized that she was
indeed saying that _STUFF_ON_ Star Trek was fictional and I was simply
reading it wrong. My apologies for being smarmy.
John L. Freiler <temp...@io.com> wrote:
: : > And The inimitable Deborah replied:
: : >
: : > : Could somebody take young Tom aside, and explain as
: : > : tactfully as possible that all that stuff on Star Trek is
: : > : fictional?
: : >
: I just noticed this:
: Deborah, I'm very sorry to have to correct you, but you are quite mistaken
: in thinking that Star Trek is fictional. It is quite real: I have seen
: it.
John
Reformed Trekkie that occasionaly makes mistakes
Alan Rothenberg
In alt.fan.cecil-adams, John L. Freiler wrote:
>
>As for stop signs on the fictional planet Vulcan being green: It would
>certainly make sense that a green blooded race would associate the color
>green with blood and thus have a 'green=distress' mentality, but there is
[stiff, unemotional voice on]
I must point out that Vulcans, being entirely driven
by logic, cannot be influenced by the real or imagined emotional
effects of color on the affect.
Therefore, the selection of color for maximum emotional effect
is irrelevent.
- A. Rothenberg, parent of a Trekker, and no longer "remaining
nameless"
John L. Freiler
Alan Rothenberg <arot...@netaxs.com> wrote:
: [stiff, unemotional voice on]
: I must point out that Vulcans, being entirely driven
: by logic, cannot be influenced by the real or imagined emotional
: effects of color on the affect.
: Therefore, the selection of color for maximum emotional effect
: is irrelevent.
Don't get me started on Vulcans: ther're actually a race of pathological
liars, did you know that? In any case, the selection of color for
stop-signs would have taken place in the time before logic was brought to
the Vulcans, so the emotional impact of the color would be relevant.
They may have changed the color once the cult of logic had taken hold, but
only if the gains out-weighed the costs. (as is only logical)
Actually, a novel I read stated that there are virtually no traffic signs
at all on the planet Vulcan, since each driver is capable of judging when
and where it would be logical to stop. To drive while not being able to
do this would, of course, be illogical.
John
John Grimes
John L. Freiler <temp...@io.com> writes:
>: > And The inimitable Deborah replied:
>: >
>: > : Could somebody take young Tom aside, and explain as
>: > : tactfully as possible that all that stuff on Star Trek is
>: > : fictional?
>: >
>I just noticed this:
>Deborah, I'm very sorry to have to correct you, but you are quite mistaken
>in thinking that Star Trek is fictional. It is quite real: I have seen
>it.
Someone around here used to have a sig to the effect of "The Bible is
proof of the existence of God the same way that comics books
are proof of the existence of Superman."
john
John Grimes
"Hoyt" <hdu...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Mhwojt wrote in article <19970411045...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>So maybe in another 30 years, we may be able to move neyond this idea of
>blue=bad or will it become part of our mythology?
I was kinda hoping somebody'd wander on down to the backyard
of science photocopy room with a blue pen, black pen and paper
o'plenty and give it a whirl. I would have, but the photocopy
guy was down there swearing quietly all day, and I just couldn't
figure out how to explain it to him.
"There's this newsgroup, you see, on the Internet, you see, and..."
john
The Human Neutrino
:3.worldnet.att.net>
Distribution:
Hoyt (hdu...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Todd Canaday wrote in article <5if7k2$hru$1...@news7.gte.net>...
: >Hoyt wrote:
: >>
: >> Drew Carter <dca...@ycp.edu> wrote in article
: >> <Pine.SOL.3.96.970406195829.24506A-100000@goose>...
: >> >
: >> > For reasons unknown to me, teachers use red ink while grading papers.
Maybe it's because red pens are more common than other
non-standard colors of pens. I've seen packs of red pens sold, but never
packs containing only green, or purple, or some other color- those colors
only seem to be sold in multi-color packs. (Of course, it could be the
other way around- red pens are more common because teachers traditionally
grade in red)
Another possibility comes from one of my attempts last semester (I
graded for a "physics for poets" class) to find a color other than red for
grading. I tried purple first (it's my favorite color), but the professor
I worked for said it was too hard to distinguish from the blue or black
ink the students would use. I used green, which seemed to be the only
obvious "non-red" color choice- assuming I wanted to use ballpoint pens
rather than markers or something else (with my handwriting, I needed to do
everything I could to make things legible). The packs of colored pens
available at the local drugstore only included red, purple, blue (a
turquoise blue, rather than standard blue, but still too close to standard
blue), and green.
: >>
: >> You will be pleased to know that they are now teaching teachers to
: avoid
: >> using red ink at all.
: >>
: >> 73,
: >> Hoyt
: >
: >Why are they teaching teachers to not use red?
: Because of the negative emotional impact of RED. Even if you wrote a
: compliment in RED, the student would react negatively. It's the
: ring-the-bell-and-salivate thing.
My boyfriend in high school would sometimes have papers returned
to him with lots of comments (usually not compliments) in red on them. He
would refer to these papers as "looking like somebody died on them." Last
semester, I remembered him saying that and used green ink instead of red for
grading. No one ever said anything. I went back to using red for grading
in a similar class this semester, and no one has complained about feeling
traumatized. On the other hand, I haven't noticed them being more
attentive to my comments with red ink than with green...
Linda "maybe I'll try grading in blood sometime, just to see if THAT gets
their attention"
--
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot get out of the game.
sj...@aol.com
<temp...@io.com> writes:
>
>And then I actually read what Deborah Wrote and realized
that she was indeed saying that _STUFF_ON_ Star Trek
was fictional and I was simply reading it wrong. My apologies
for being smarmy.
Oh, no! Is there a new a.f.c.a. policy, such that we all have
to hamster every time we are smarmy?
Bob Roman
> > Steven Peterson wrote:
> > > Say I suddenly develop the power of telepathy, how likely would
> > > it be that I could "read" or understand the thoughts of a person
> > > who natively spoke a language foreign to mine?
> Justin Hiltscher wrote:
> > depends on
> > implementation. for example, if we communicated in imagined visual
> > images, instead of imagined words in our minds, then no problem. <edit>
> > Its kinda equivalent to two computers trying to talk to eachother,
> > without beforehand knowing, "Oh, he speaks TCP/IP".
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, fastrada wrote:
> Another speculation on telepathy: it could be automatic understanding
> if (1) telepathy existed (doubtful, in my opinion, because it would
> probably have beceom a evolutionary advantage),
Daryl Bem, at Cornell, has been doing some work on telepathic communication
that is stirring up psychology. Even skeptics admit his methodology is
unflawed, although they claim it is too early to draw any conclusions.
Bem is demonstrating small but reliable effects.
> and (2) Noam Chimsky is
> right about humans being born with an innate language sense in the brain
> (pardons if I just screwed up his theory).
*Chomsky* ("Chimsky" was the subject in a famous Chimpanzee language
experiment) said there is, in humans, an innate "universal grammar,"
through which the diverse language grammars operate. So, you are probably
correct in interpreting Chomsky as supportive of possible cross-language
telepathic communication.
Bob Roman
Jim Balter
Bob Roman wrote:
> Daryl Bem, at Cornell, has been doing some work on telepathic communication
> that is stirring up psychology. Even skeptics admit his methodology is
> unflawed, although they claim it is too early to draw any conclusions.
> Bem is demonstrating small but reliable effects.
There is always claim floating about that "they" haven't found any
flaws in some paranormal study. But in fact when Bem discussed his
Ganzfeld work at the Tucson II consciousness symposium, half the room
were skeptics who had plenty to say about it, and
Susan Blackmore, a psychologist who has been active in ESP studies and
who spoke after Bem and was on the same panel, specifically addressed
the exaggerated claims made about Bem's results and and the unjustified
claims about what his results imply. Her position on whether there
are any paranormal phenomena: "probably not". So, be skeptical about
claims about where skeptics stand.
> > and (2) Noam Chimsky is
> > right about humans being born with an innate language sense in the brain
> > (pardons if I just screwed up his theory).
>
> *Chomsky* ("Chimsky" was the subject in a famous Chimpanzee language
> experiment) said there is, in humans, an innate "universal grammar,"
> through which the diverse language grammars operate. So, you are probably
> correct in interpreting Chomsky as supportive of possible cross-language
> telepathic communication.
As far as I know, Dr. Chomsky has never said anything in support of
telepathy. What he has said is that there seems to be a
Poverty of Stimulus such that human children could not learn all
of what they know about language (this is a highly speculative and
controversial claim), and so they must have innate language skills, and
that there are many commonalities among languages which suggest that our
brains are structured in such a way that some language forms are more
natural for us than others. That is not related to whether there is
some mechanism, as yet unknown, by which people can communicate
"thoughts", whatever those are. If there is such a mechanism,
it is rather odd that it only shows up in the most minute statistical
deviations in studies by those who are highly committed to a belief that
there is such an effect.
--
<J Q B>
M C Hamster
In article <5ios0s$l...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net> "Hoyt" <hdu...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> sj...@aol.com wrote in article >Oh, no! Is there a new a.f.c.a. policy,
>such that we all have
>>to hamster every time we are smarmy?
>>
> It seems a natural progression: post->smarm->hamster.
When you are a hamster, you learn that diplomacy is directly linked to
survival. Up to a point.
post->smarm->hamster->regret->garagetool(v.)
M C Hamster
"Small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
Bound to cover just a little more ground..."
Grateful Dead
Operations
sj...@aol.com wrote:
>
> t...@icanect.net (tom) writes:
>
> >> > Red is also psychologically an "alert" color, which is in
> fact related to the color of blood. << <
>
> Vulcan green?<
>
> tactfully as possible that all that stuff on Star Trek is
> fictional?
>
I'll assume you yourself are indulging in the same satirical wit as Tom!
JRM
--
Unless explicitly attributed, the opinions expressed are personal
and not those of JIS Services or EDS.
John L. Freiler
M C Hamster <davo...@interaccess.com> wrote:
: In article <5ios0s$l...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net> "Hoyt" <hdu...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
: > sj...@aol.com wrote in article >Oh, no! Is there a new a.f.c.a. policy,
: >such that we all have
: >>to hamster every time we are smarmy?
: >>
: > It seems a natural progression: post->smarm->hamster.
: When you are a hamster, you learn that diplomacy is directly linked to
: survival. Up to a point.
Now I take exception to the accustaion that i was hamstering. I never
apologised for my opinion, I was apologising for incorrectly reading
Deborah's post.
Hraumph!
John
Hoyt
Charles Wm. Dimmick wrote in article <3353B7...@ccsu.ctstateu.edu>...
>Must be why some students refer to me as the antichrist. I buy my red
>pens by the dozen, and have handed back papers that have more of my
>red ink than the student's blue ink. Of course, this also indicates
>that I take more time grading the papers than the students take to
>write them.
Perhaps "Charles the Red"?
Your answer begs the question: What is the topic that is either so boring
or so far above their developmental level that you write more than they? I
gotta know.
73,
Hoyt the Blue
Steve Brinich
>> Which leads to the obvious question: Are the stop signs on
>> Vulcan green?
>
> Could somebody take young Tom aside, and explain as
> tactfully as possible that all that stuff on Star Trek is
> fictional?
As His Omniscience Himself once put it, remind me to explain
the concept of a "joke" to you sometime.
--
Steve Brinich ste...@access.digex.net If the government wants us
PGP:89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E to respect the law
http://www.access.digex.net/~steve-b it should set a better example
Steve Brinich
Jim Balter wrote:
>Steven Peterson wrote:
>> Hmmmmmm.....I wonder if I should ask a question I've had in the
>> back of my mind for the last couple of days, since it's kinda
>> non-reality based:
>>
>> Say I suddenly develop the power of telepathy, how likely would
>> it be that I could "read" or understand the thoughts of a person
>> who natively spoke a language foreign to mine?
>
> It's your fantasy, so you get to pick your own impossible powers.
Hal Clement once wrote a story about telepathic aliens who picked
up a human to learn humans' "mental language" -- only to find that
with non-telepaths like humans, the species had no "mental language"
in common.
Ben Ostrowsky
ste...@access.digex.net wrote:
> Hal Clement once wrote a story about telepathic aliens who picked
>up a human to learn humans' "mental language" -- only to find that
>with non-telepaths like humans, the species had no "mental language"
>in common.
How true it is. What was that story about a human ambassador who went
into space to learn the language of a huge betentacled alien, and finally
learned it but gained tentacles in the bargain? A Suzette Haden Elgin
story, maybe? (or maybe not...)
Ben
--
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God
who endowed us with sense, reason and intellect had
intended us to forgo their use." -- Galileo Galilei
Amanda Van Rhyn
OK, this is my first posting on a.f.c-a. Please bear with me if I make
some stupid newbie mistakes.
If black and blue are good pen colors, but not red, what about green or
purple? They've always seemed to be good colors. Assuming the shade's not
superneon, they aren't too hard to read on white paper. Why have they
been shunned for everyday use by adults? Please enlighten me on this.
Manda
"There is much weirdness amongst us, kids." - Unca Cece
(Betcha couldn't see that coming a mile away!)
**** If you want to reply to this by email and aren't some sort
of rogue spambot attempting to take over the Internet, please remove the
no.spam from the address. ****
Hoyt
Amanda Van Rhyn wrote in article <33550F...@alaska.net.no.spam>...
>
>OK, this is my first posting on a.f.c-a. Please bear with me if I make
>some stupid newbie mistakes.
>
>If black and blue are good pen colors, but not red, what about green or
>purple? They've always seemed to be good colors. Assuming the shade's not
>superneon, they aren't too hard to read on white paper. Why have they
>been shunned for everyday use by adults? Please enlighten me on this.
>
Great to see you post here, Manda.
I started this particular thread with a question s to why black ink was
considered more formal than blue ink. If you don't download all the posts
on this topic, use DejaNews to search for the words in the header and you
can read it all there.
To save you the trouble, it seems that it has to do with black being the
first ink color and the inability of some obsolete, no longer used lame
photocopier to copy blue ink. It seems as if no one can remember to buckle
their seat belt, but everyone remembers to use black ink for photocopies.
Some world, huh? I suppose this irrational loyalty to black accounts for
the continued use of black among adults, and purple and green among
teenagers who stay awake at night thinking of ways to irritate adults.
Purple ink usually does it. Especially when they draw tattoos on their
faces with it. Or deface a perfectly good poster of Barry Manilow. On
second thought, hand me a purple pen....
To give you a short and direct answer, adults use black to conform.
73,
Hoyt
tom
Somebody presumably said...
> > Red is also psychologically an "alert" color, which is in fact related
> > to the color of blood.
Which leads to the obvious question: Are the stop signs on Vulcan green?
--
PGP key available from better keyservers everywhere.
"In reality, the animal rights movement has
elevated ignorance about the natural world
almost to the level of a philosophical principle."
-- Richard Coniff, conservationist,
Audubon Magazine (92(6):120-133;1990)
notmya...@notmyisp.co
In article <5j143r$k...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>,
hdu...@worldnet.att.net says...
the following question." It does not. It never has. It means "your
question assumes information that has not been established." A common
example of "begging the question" is the secret policeman's "When did you
stop beating your wife?" This begs the question, "Did you EVER beat your
wife?"
Your welcome.
-- Tom --
RM Mentock
tom wrote:
>
> Somebody presumably said...
>
> > > Red is also psychologically an "alert" color, which is in fact related
> > > to the color of blood.
>
> Which leads to the obvious question: Are the stop signs on Vulcan green?
Whoa, deja nu. I think I've seen this question before.
All right, Deborah, now what?
--
D.
men...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~mentock/index.htm
Greg Goss
Amanda Van Rhyn <van...@alaska.net.no.spam> wrote:
>
>OK, this is my first posting on a.f.c-a. Please bear with me if I make
>some stupid newbie mistakes.
>
>If black and blue are good pen colors, but not red, what about green or
>purple? They've always seemed to be good colors. Assuming the shade's not
>superneon, they aren't too hard to read on white paper. Why have they
>been shunned for everyday use by adults? Please enlighten me on this.
I believe that aditors are said to use green when grading your
assignments. Something like a teacher, but tougher.
Editors are said to use "blue pencil".
-----------------------------------------------------
Mindlink R.I.P . 1986-1997 Ten years at one ISP.
We shall remember our cyber village. Sigh!
Greg Diamond
In article <33646ed4...@199.60.229.5>,
Greg Goss <or...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>Amanda Van Rhyn <van...@alaska.net.no.spam> wrote:
>>OK, this is my first posting on a.f.c-a. Please bear with me if I make
>>some stupid newbie mistakes.
>>If black and blue are good pen colors, but not red, what about green or
>>purple? They've always seemed to be good colors. Assuming the shade's not
>>superneon, they aren't too hard to read on white paper. Why have they
>>been shunned for everyday use by adults? Please enlighten me on this.
>I believe that aditors are said to use green when grading your
>assignments. Something like a teacher, but tougher.
Honestly, my guess is because purple and green are both seen as being
somewhat effeminate compared to black and blue. You don't see them much
in traditional men's suits either. Or, if you don't like the Freudianism,
perhaps the "businesslike" air of black/blue in men's coutere translates
into the "businesslikeness" or inks. Don't ask me about brown.
I use purple, green, orange, pink, cyan -- anything that irritates the
right people. But then I also do grade a lot of papers.
--
<><><> There is evil: ever around, fundamental,
Greg<> System of government quite incidental;
<>/\<> So why go bananas chasing Nirvanas and failing?
<>\/<> -- Eva, "Waltz for Eva and Che," *Evita*
SJF 37
Amanda Van Rhyn <van...@alaska.net.no.spam> writes:
>
>If black and blue are good pen colors, but not red,
what about green or purple? They've always seemed
to be good colors. Assuming the shade's not superneon,
they aren't too hard to read on white paper. Why have
they been shunned for everyday use by adults? Please
enlighten me on this.<
I think it just comes down to aesthetics that are driven
by notions of social class. You get to decide for yourself
whether you want to be a free spirit and defy these outmoded, classist,
uptight conventions - but it's better to know what
they are before you choose.
There's nothing ethically wrong with using brightly colored
inks in serious hand-written correspondence - just as there's
nothing ethically wrong with wearing a dinner jacket in any
color but black or midnight blue - but as Miss Manners will
tellyou, people who use sport other colors are instantly
categorized as Not Our Kind, Dear.
Incidentally, the same color code applies to the tie,
cummerbund, and slacks - Miss M. says that sporting
a black satin stripe up down the sides of the latter is
enough satorial excitement for a gentleman during a
formal dinner party. And the shirt should be white,
no frills. It pains me to report this, since Unca Cece
once mentioned in his column that he attended a
"Creative Black Tie" event in an outfit that deviated
from this code. Clearly, one of my role models would
consider another to be Not Our Kind, Dear.
Jim Balter
Greg Diamond wrote:
> Honestly, my guess is because purple and green are both seen as being
> somewhat effeminate compared to black and blue. You don't see them much
> in traditional men's suits either. Or, if you don't like the Freudianism,
> perhaps the "businesslike" air of black/blue in men's coutere translates
> into the "businesslikeness" or inks. Don't ask me about brown.
This is cultural chauvinism. In France, for instance, purple is a
prominent color in men's business attire.
--
<J Q B>
Hoyt
Jim Balter wrote in article <335A9F...@netcom.com>...
>
>This is cultural chauvinism. In France, for instance, purple is a
>prominent color in men's business attire.
>
And or course it would be. That explains a lot.
73,
Hoyt
Greg Diamond
In article <335A9F...@netcom.com>, Jim Balter <j...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Greg Diamond wrote:
>> Honestly, my guess is because purple and green are both seen as being
>> somewhat effeminate compared to black and blue. You don't see them much
>> in traditional men's suits either. Or, if you don't like the Freudianism,
>> perhaps the "businesslike" air of black/blue in men's coutere translates
>> into the "businesslikeness" or inks. Don't ask me about brown.
>This is cultural chauvinism. In France, for instance, purple is a
>prominent color in men's business attire.
Damn right it's chauvenism. But now that I know this, let me test my
hypothesis -- is purple a more acceptable color for ink in France?
M C Hamster
> Jim Balter wrote in article <335A9F...@netcom.com>...
>>
>>This is cultural chauvinism. In France, for instance, purple is a
>>prominent color in men's business attire.
>>
>And or course it would be. That explains a lot.
Hoyt... vous etes un putz.
M C Hamster
Ezekiel saw the wheel, way up in the middle of the air
Ezekiel saw the wheel, way in the middle of the air
And the little wheel runs by faith, and the big wheel runs by the grace of God
A wheel in a wheel, way in the middle of the air...
(Trad. gospel song -- thanks to Donna Richoux)
Hoyt
M C Hamster wrote in article ...
>In article <5jemge$1...@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net> "Hoyt" <hduff2@worldnet.a
tt.net> writes:
>
>> Jim Balter wrote in article <335A9F...@netcom.com>...
>>>
>>>This is cultural chauvinism. In France, for instance, purple is a
>>>prominent color in men's business attire.
>>>
>
>>And or course it would be. That explains a lot.
>
>Hoyt... vous etes un putz.
>
This is not another damn quote from "Princess Bride" is it?
73,
Hoyt
The Human Neutrino
3.worldnet.att.net> <3353B7...@ccsu.ctstateu.edu>
<33550F...@alaska.net.no.spam> <5j9ea9$q...@mtinsc03.worldnet.att.net>:
Distribution:
Hoyt (hdu...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Amanda Van Rhyn wrote in article <33550F...@alaska.net.no.spam>...
: >
: >OK, this is my first posting on a.f.c-a. Please bear with me if I make
: >some stupid newbie mistakes.
: >
: >If black and blue are good pen colors, but not red, what about green or
: >purple? They've always seemed to be good colors. Assuming the shade's not
: >superneon, they aren't too hard to read on white paper. Why have they
: >been shunned for everyday use by adults? Please enlighten me on this.
: >
: Great to see you post here, Manda.
: I started this particular thread with a question s to why black ink was
: considered more formal than blue ink. If you don't download all the posts
: on this topic, use DejaNews to search for the words in the header and you
: can read it all there.
: To save you the trouble, it seems that it has to do with black being the
: first ink color and the inability of some obsolete, no longer used lame
: photocopier to copy blue ink. It seems as if no one can remember to buckle
: their seat belt, but everyone remembers to use black ink for photocopies.
I remember someone's call for an experiment on photocopying black
vs blue ink. I have done this, at great personal risk (mostly to my copy
privileges if someone finds out what I was doing). I found that, while
both black and blue came out legible, the black was darker than the blue.
I suppose blue could create a problem if one were writing something that
would be photocopied, and then the copies would be copied, but it
photocopied just fine. (I didn't try green or purple, though- I will
leave that to some other brave pioneer)
Linda
lal...@delphi.com
davo...@interaccess.com (M C Hamster) wrote:
:"Hoyt" <hdu...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Jim Balter wrote in article <335A9...@netcom.com>...
>>This is cultural chauvinism. In France, for instance, purple is a
>>prominent color in men's business attire.
>And or course it would be. That explains a lot.
:Hoyt... vous etes un putz.
I missed the beginning of this thread (server problems), and I can't
understand your post to Hoyt. I speak no French at all so I took your
message to a friend at the French embassy in my city. He translated it
as, "you are a ..." but he could not identify the word "putz". I told him
that frequently the usenet downloads introduce errors in the message.
My French friend then said that maybe you meant "putois", polecat.
So which is it? If polecat is not correct, then what is putz? Is it
French? Or did you mean potz (potzer)?
Les
Hoyt
lal...@delphi.com wrote in article <5VCZ9X2...@delphi.com>...
You don't know from putz?The Hamster meant that I was a dick (a penis).
Since he is mixing languages, he could have punctuated it differently, such
as: Hoyt... vous etes un "putz".
And I'm guessing he said it in French (except for the dick-word because he
probably didn't know it -- perhaps your friend could enlighten us) because
I made a condescending remark about the French. Jeez, these people have an
arrogant attitude about their language (I know I would if I used real
French words like "le compact disk") and they worship [pause for effect]
Jerry Lewis. Ask your French buddy to explain that one because the rest of
the world can't figure it out.
73,
Hoyt
"Crazy? I'll tell you what's crazy: Walking down the street with a melon on
your head yelling 'Hamster! Hamster!' --- Now that's crazy." - Leslie
Neilsen in the movie 'Spy Hard'
Bob Roman
On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Rich Clancey wrote:
> I recently completed a long test run of using purple ink,
> mixed in different shades with black, for taking notes in school
> classes. I found it really unpleasant to read an entire page in
> purple on white. A dark blue or dark brown was much more enjoyable,
> and black was dull but legible. Contrast is very important, and a
> fine line (I use a very fine technical pen) in a middlin purple is
> very light against a white page. It's subjective, I know, but the
> reddish colors including purple are more suited for highlighting, at
> least to my eyes, because they are not visually "restful" enough.
Rich, try writing with your purple ink on blue paper. If we follow from
your two premises -- 1) "Contrast is very important," and 2) reddish
colors are not restful -- we can hypothesize that purple ink (which was
uncomfortable to read on white paper) will be the most comfortable to read
on blue paper. Black and brown ink will blend into the darker, colored
background, but the blue background should bring out the reddishness in
the purple ink, thereby maintaining your attention.
If this quasi-experiment works out as described, what can we conclude
about the attention grabbing power of red? Would this evidence (attention
grabbed by reddish contrast rather than red per se) imply that our
attention is *innately* grabbed by reddishness?
If so, does this evidence invalidate the blood hypothesis (that red grabs
our attention because it reminds us of blood)? Or are we wired to respond
to red in the service of being quick to respond to blood (a bias which
would have survival value)?
Or am I letting my speculations run too wild?
Bob Roman