Color of Burning Chlorine?
Briar Rose
So, my bathroom has a gas heater with a visible flame. Usually,
there's a little bit of blue visible in the flame near the gas jets,
which gradually becomes orange as you travel up the flame (the whole
flame is about 4").
1I was cleaning my humidifier by running a solution of bleach and water
through it, and had it sitting in the shower stall because, well, a
shower seems a good place to put bleach and water. I just walked into
the bathroom, and noticed that the flame is orange all the way down to
the jets.
Would chlorine in the air have this effect? Is it something I should
worry about?
In related news, there has been a lot of rumbling inside my house
lately, especially late at night. I don't know if I just never
noticed it before (I got a sky-bed; I'm much closer to the walls
which have pipes in them, now), or if it's always done this.
Anyone got any idea how to tell whether this rumbling is gas or
water pipes, and whether I should be worried that my house is going
to spontaneously explode? I have no idea who I could ask about
this, and I don't think the landlady wants to come over and spend
several hours hanging out, listening for rumblings.
:) Connie-Lynne
--
And our future's standing still, we're dancing in the spotlight
Where is the leader who leads me? I'm still waiting ...
--Wolfsheim, "The Sparrows and the Nightingales"
rob...@bestweb.net
>So, my bathroom has a gas heater with a visible flame. Usually,
>there's a little bit of blue visible in the flame near the gas jets,
>which gradually becomes orange as you travel up the flame (the whole
>flame is about 4").
>1I was cleaning my humidifier by running a solution of bleach and
>water through it, and had it sitting in the shower stall because,
>well, a shower seems a good place to put bleach and water. I just
>walked into the bathroom, and noticed that the flame is orange all
>the way down to the jets.
>Would chlorine in the air have this effect? Is it something I
>should worry about?
Chlorine does affect flame colors, although I wonder about there being
enough in the air to have that effect. So I'm cross-posting to
rec.pyrotechnics, where we're concerned about such things.
>In related news, there has been a lot of rumbling inside my house
>lately, especially late at night. I don't know if I just never
>noticed it before (I got a sky-bed; I'm much closer to the walls
>which have pipes in them, now), or if it's always done this.
>Anyone got any idea how to tell whether this rumbling is gas or
>water pipes, and whether I should be worried that my house is going
>to spontaneously explode? I have no idea who I could ask about
>this, and I don't think the landlady wants to come over and spend
>several hours hanging out, listening for rumblings.
>:) Connie-Lynne
>--
Explosions? We're concerned about those in rec.pyrotechnics too!
Robert
mje
cly...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Briar Rose) wrote:
>
> So, my bathroom has a gas heater with a visible flame. Usually,
> there's a little bit of blue visible in the flame near the gas jets,
> which gradually becomes orange as you travel up the flame (the whole
> flame is about 4").
>
> 1I was cleaning my humidifier by running a solution of bleach and water
> through it, and had it sitting in the shower stall because, well, a
> shower seems a good place to put bleach and water. I just walked into
> the bathroom, and noticed that the flame is orange all the way down to
> the jets.
>
> Would chlorine in the air have this effect? Is it something I should
> worry about?
Maybe. Chlorine by itself probably wouldn't do that in that
concentration. Chlorine bearing compounds aren't used by themselves for
color, but as intensifiers for the brighter colors.
An orange gas flame is usually the sign of not enough oxygen- a reducing
flame. Could be that the chlorine vapors were causing the oxygen
starvation. Might be a combination of both effects.
--
Michael Edelman
http://www.foldingkayaks.com
http://www.findascope.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mark Brader
"Connie-Lynne" writes:
> In related news, there has been a lot of rumbling inside my house
> lately, especially late at night. I don't know if I just never
> noticed it before (I got a sky-bed; I'm much closer to the walls
> which have pipes in them, now), or if it's always done this.
>
> Anyone got any idea how to tell whether this rumbling is gas or
Could be the air ducts, if Connie-Lynne's house has forced-air heating.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "What Europe needs is a fresh, unused mind."
m...@vex.net | -- Foreign Correspondent
Lalbert1
>So, my bathroom has a gas heater with a visible flame. Usually,
>there's a little bit of blue visible in the flame near the gas jets,
>which gradually becomes orange as you travel up the flame (the whole
>flame is about 4").
>
>1I was cleaning my humidifier by running a solution of bleach and water
>through it, and had it sitting in the shower stall because, well, a
>shower seems a good place to put bleach and water. I just walked into
>the bathroom, and noticed that the flame is orange all the way down to
>the jets.
>
>Would chlorine in the air have this effect? Is it something I should
>worry about?
>
>In related news, there has been a lot of rumbling inside my house
>lately, especially late at night. I don't know if I just never
>noticed it before (I got a sky-bed; I'm much closer to the walls
>which have pipes in them, now), or if it's always done this.
>
>Anyone got any idea how to tell whether this rumbling is gas or
>water pipes, and whether I should be worried that my house is going
>to spontaneously explode? I have no idea who I could ask about
>this, and I don't think the landlady wants to come over and spend
>several hours hanging out, listening for rumblings.
>
>
You should contact PG&E and ask about the flame color. According to most
information about natural gas appliances, one way to check the flame is to look
at the color of the pilot light. A pilot light should be about 90% blue. A
yellow flame indicates the appliance might not be working properly and may be
giving off harmful fumes (this information is taken from
http://www.powerhousetv.com/brochures/gassafety.php3)
What's a sky-bed?
Les
Keith Rickert
lalb...@aol.com (Lalbert1) wrote:
Yes, I agree that a yellow flame is indicative of lack of oxygenation,
which could be dangerous.
However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces a very strong
orange color in flames. My guess is that this is most likely to be the
cause of the change in the color - you are probably putting enough
aerosolized bleach (or other sodium salts after the bleach has reacted)
into the air to do that. I'm not sure that this is a great thing for you
to be breathing. If it doesn't go away after you've had the humidifier
off and out of there for a while, then have someone check out the flame.
Looking for sooty deposits or checking with a CO alarm might be a good
idea if you have a poorly oxygenated flame.
Keith
--
Keith Rickert | "You want the truth? You can't handle the
rick...@netaxs.com | truth! No truth-handler, you! Bah! I
keith_...@merck.com | deride your truth-handling abilities!"
(note change) | Sideshow Bob, The Simpsons
Perry Farmer
-> In article <20001129183600...@nso-fu.aol.com>,
-> lalb...@aol.com (Lalbert1) wrote:
-> > In article <903sdb$a...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, cly...@ugcs.caltech.ed
-> > Rose) writes:
-> >
-> > >So, my bathroom has a gas heater with a visible flame. Usually,
-> > >there's a little bit of blue visible in the flame near the gas jets,
-> > >which gradually becomes orange as you travel up the flame (the whole
-> > >flame is about 4").
-> > >
-> > >1I was cleaning my humidifier by running a solution of bleach and
-> > >through it, and had it sitting in the shower stall because, well, a
-> > >shower seems a good place to put bleach and water. I just walked
-> > >the bathroom, and noticed that the flame is orange all the way dow
-> > >the jets.
-> > >
-> > >Would chlorine in the air have this effect? Is it something I should
-> > >worry about?
-> > >
-> > >In related news, there has been a lot of rumbling inside my house
-> > >lately, especially late at night. I don't know if I just never
-> > >noticed it before (I got a sky-bed; I'm much closer to the walls
-> > >which have pipes in them, now), or if it's always done this.
-> > >
-> > >Anyone got any idea how to tell whether this rumbling is gas or
-> > >water pipes, and whether I should be worried that my house is going
-> > >to spontaneously explode? I have no idea who I could ask about
-> > >this, and I don't think the landlady wants to come over and spend
-> > >several hours hanging out, listening for rumblings.
-> > >
-> > >
-> >
-> > You should contact PG&E and ask about the flame color. According t
-> > information about natural gas appliances, one way to check the flam
-> to look
-> > at the color of the pilot light. A pilot light should be about 90%
-> > yellow flame indicates the appliance might not be working properly
-> > giving off harmful fumes (this information is taken from
-> > http://www.powerhousetv.com/brochures/gassafety.php3)
-> Yes, I agree that a yellow flame is indicative of lack of oxygenation,
-> which could be dangerous.
-> However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces a very st
-> orange color in flames. My guess is that this is most likely to be the
However is not most bleach in the bottle about 2%, we use 14 at work and
that is much stronger than what one uses at home, but still tolerable.
I agree if it is stong enough to influence flame color, either due to
its reaction or by simple displacement of O2, then it may be a good idea
to not be physically in that environment.
-> Keith
Perry
Alan Hamilton
Rickert) wrote:
>However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces a very strong
>orange color in flames. My guess is that this is most likely to be the
>cause of the change in the color - you are probably putting enough
>aerosolized bleach (or other sodium salts after the bleach has reacted)
>into the air to do that. I'm not sure that this is a great thing for you
>to be breathing. If it doesn't go away after you've had the humidifier
>off and out of there for a while, then have someone check out the flame.
>Looking for sooty deposits or checking with a CO alarm might be a good
>idea if you have a poorly oxygenated flame.
Another issue is that the heater can be damaged by chronic exposure to
bleach and the like. This warning came with my water heater:
NOTE: The water heater should not be installed near an air
supply containing halogenated hydrocarbons.
The air in beauty shops, dry cleaning establishments, photo
processing labs, and storage areas for liquid and powdered bleaches or
swimming pool chemicals often contain such halogenated hydrocarbons.
An air supply containing halogenated hydrocarbons may be safe
to breath, but when it passes through a gas flame corrosive elements
are released that will shorten the life of any gas burning appliance.
Propellants from common spray cans or gas leaks from
refrigeration equipment are highly corrosive after passing through a
flame.
The water heater warranty is voided when failure of the heater
is due to operation in a corrosive atmosphere.
--
/
/ * / Alan Hamilton
* * al...@primenet.com
rob...@bestweb.net
>In article <20001129183600...@nso-fu.aol.com>,
>lalb...@aol.com (Lalbert1) wrote:
>> In article <903sdb$a...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, cly...@ugcs.caltech.
>>edu (Briar Rose) writes:
>>(the whole >flame is about 4").
>> >
>> >1I was cleaning my humidifier by running a solution of bleach
>>because, well, a >shower seems a good place to put bleach and
>>water. I just walked into >the bathroom, and noticed that the
>>flame is orange all the way down to >the jets.
>> >
>> >Would chlorine in the air have this effect? Is it something I
>> >
>> >In related news, there has been a lot of rumbling inside my house
>> >
>>about >this, and I don't think the landlady wants to come over
>>and spend >several hours hanging out, listening for rumblings.
>> >
>> >
>> You should contact PG&E and ask about the flame color. According
>check the flame is to look
>> at the color of the pilot light. A pilot light should be about
>>working properly and may be giving off harmful fumes (this
>>information is taken from http://www.powerhousetv.
>com/brochures/gassafety.php3)
>Yes, I agree that a yellow flame is indicative of lack of
>oxygenation, which could be dangerous.
>However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces a very
>strong orange color in flames. My guess is that this is most
>likely to be the cause of the change in the color - you are
>probably putting enough aerosolized bleach (or other sodium salts
>after the bleach has reacted) into the air to do that. I'm not sure
>that this is a great thing for you to be breathing. If it doesn't
>go away after you've had the humidifier off and out of there for a
>while, then have someone check out the flame. Looking for sooty
>deposits or checking with a CO alarm might be a good idea if you
>have a poorly oxygenated flame.
>Keith
>--
Quoted for cross-posting to rec.pyrotechnics.
Briar Rose
>>>cly...@ugcs.caltech.edu (Briar Rose) writes:
>>>>So, my bathroom has a gas heater with a visible flame.
>>>>Usually, there's a little bit of blue visible in the
>>>>flame near the gas jets, which gradually becomes orange
>>>>as you travel up the flame (the whole flame is about 4").
>>>>
>>>>bleach and water through it, and had it sitting in the
>>>>shower stall because, well, a shower seems a good place
>>>>to put bleach and water. I just walked into the
>>>>bathroom, and noticed that the flame is orange all the
>>>>way down to the jets.
>>However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces
>>a very strong orange color in flames. My guess is that
>>this is most likely to be the cause of the change in the
>>color - you are probably putting enough aerosolized bleach
>>(or other sodium salts after the bleach has reacted) into
>>the air to do that. I'm not surethat this is a great thing
>>for you to be breathing. If it doesn't go away after you've
>>had the humidifier off and out of there for a while, then
>>have someone check out the flame. Looking for sooty deposits
>>or checking with a CO alarm might be a good idea if you have
>>a poorly oxygenated flame.
Being of an experimental turn, I shut off the heater and
ventilated the bathroom more thoroughly (opened the window.
Brr.) shortly before making my initial post. Then, a few
hours later, I turned the heater back on. Sure enough, the
flame was back to blue-at-bottom. Then I turned on the
bleachy-humidifier for about five minutes, and, sure enough,
the flame was orange again.
So I left the heater off until I was done cleaning the
humidifier. I also had worries about breathing the
massive bleach-o-rama, and pretty much stayed out of
the bathroom during the cleaning and post-cleaning
ventilation phase.
So, that all answers my first question. Cool, sodium.
Thanks, everyone.
Anyone got any idea on the second question, reposted
here for your edification?
>>>>In related news, there has been a lot of rumbling inside
>>>>my house lately, especially late at night. I don't know
>>>>if I just never noticed it before (I got a sky-bed; I'm
>>>>much closer to the walls which have pipes in them, now),
>>>>or if it's always done this.
>>>>
>>>>Anyone got any idea how to tell whether this rumbling is
>>>>gas or water pipes, and whether I should be worried that
>>>>my house is going to spontaneously explode? I have no
>>>>idea who I could ask about this, and I don't think the
>>>>landlady wants to come over and spend several hours
>>>>hanging out, listening for rumblings.
:) Connie-Lynne
Helge Moulding
>>>However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces
>>>a very strong orange color in flames.
Sodium does that, alright.
>[experiments snipped]
>So, that all answers my first question. Cool, sodium.
I never thought that sodium hypochlorite can evaporate like
that. Are we sure? Is it possible that the odor is mainly
chlorine compounds sans sodium (e.g. Cl2), and that the
orange flame is anoxic, as was proposed as an alternative?
How anoxic does a flame have to be to turn orange? Or maybe
the corrosive effects of the chlorine in the air are
attacking the gas nozzle, causing it to leach metals into
the flame that produce the orange color?
--
Helge Moulding
mailto:hmou...@excite.com Just another guy
http://hmoulding.cjb.net/ with a weird name
Perry Farmer
-> >>However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces
-> >>a very strong orange color in flames. My guess is that
-> >>this is most likely to be the cause of the change in the
-> >>color - you are probably putting enough aerosolized bleach
-> >>(or other sodium salts after the bleach has reacted) into
-> >>the air to do that. I'm not surethat this is a great thing
-> >>for you to be breathing. If it doesn't go away after you've
-> >>had the humidifier off and out of there for a while, then
-> >>have someone check out the flame. Looking for sooty deposits
-> >>or checking with a CO alarm might be a good idea if you have
-> >>a poorly oxygenated flame.
-> Being of an experimental turn, I shut off the heater and
-> ventilated the bathroom more thoroughly (opened the window.
-> Brr.) shortly before making my initial post. Then, a few
-> hours later, I turned the heater back on. Sure enough, the
-> flame was back to blue-at-bottom. Then I turned on the
-> bleachy-humidifier for about five minutes, and, sure enough,
-> the flame was orange again.
-> So I left the heater off until I was done cleaning the
-> humidifier. I also had worries about breathing the
-> massive bleach-o-rama, and pretty much stayed out of
-> the bathroom during the cleaning and post-cleaning
-> ventilation phase.
-> So, that all answers my first question. Cool, sodium.
-> Thanks, everyone.
Or maybe just a lack of O2.
Perry
Keith Rickert
<hmou...@excite.com> wrote:
> Briar Rose wrote,
> >>>However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces
> >>>a very strong orange color in flames.
>
> Sodium does that, alright.
>
> >[experiments snipped]
> >So, that all answers my first question. Cool, sodium.
>
> I never thought that sodium hypochlorite can evaporate like
> that. Are we sure? Is it possible that the odor is mainly
> chlorine compounds sans sodium (e.g. Cl2), and that the
> orange flame is anoxic, as was proposed as an alternative?
> How anoxic does a flame have to be to turn orange? Or maybe
> the corrosive effects of the chlorine in the air are
> attacking the gas nozzle, causing it to leach metals into
> the flame that produce the orange color?
I don't think the sodium is evaporating per se - she only saw the
phenomenon with the humidifier on. Humidifiers do a really good job of
aerosolizing their contents, i.e., creating little tiny droplets which can
float around in the air. I have no idea how you'd drastically change the
oxygen content of the room just by turning on the humidifier. Corrosive
effects on the gas nozzle would be possible, but I wouldn't expect those
to have been easily reversed by clearing the room air.
As far as the pipes go, It's very hard to get gas pipes to rumble or emit
much besides a quiet not-quite hissing of flow through the pipe. Water
pipes, on the other hand, have much more potential.
John Gilmer
> Yes, I agree that a yellow flame is indicative of lack of oxygenation,
> which could be dangerous.
It ain't necessarily so!
I have a fake gas log fireplace insert. The flue is blocked off so ALL the
combustion products go into the family room.
I also have a CO detector.
The main flame from the insert is MOSTLY YELLOW.
The CO detector had NEVER budged from zero even after running the gas log
for hours.
I suspect that the gas flame burns off the hydrogen first leaving behind the
carbon. The carbon is heated to the point where it emits the yellow light
and is oxidized to CO. The CO is burned to CO2 without much visible flame.
My "chemistry" is entirely speculation on my part but there is no doubt that
the gas log doesn't produce any really bad stuff.
BTW: the gas log automatically shuts off the gas if the O2 level in the
room falls below about 16%. I have never exercised or tested this feature.
Perry Farmer
-> In article <906dqh$hd0$1...@si05.rsvl.unisys.com>, "Helge Moulding"
-> <hmou...@excite.com> wrote:
-> > Briar Rose wrote,
-> > >>>However, bleach is sodium hypochlorite, and sodium produces
-> > >>>a very strong orange color in flames.
-> >
-> > Sodium does that, alright.
-> >
-> > >[experiments snipped]
-> > >So, that all answers my first question. Cool, sodium.
-> >
-> > I never thought that sodium hypochlorite can evaporate like
-> > that. Are we sure? Is it possible that the odor is mainly
-> > chlorine compounds sans sodium (e.g. Cl2), and that the
-> > orange flame is anoxic, as was proposed as an alternative?
-> > How anoxic does a flame have to be to turn orange? Or maybe
-> > the corrosive effects of the chlorine in the air are
-> > attacking the gas nozzle, causing it to leach metals into
-> > the flame that produce the orange color?
-> I don't think the sodium is evaporating per se - she only saw the
-> phenomenon with the humidifier on. Humidifiers do a really good job of
-> aerosolizing their contents, i.e., creating little tiny droplets whic
-> float around in the air. I have no idea how you'd drastically change
-> oxygen content of the room just by turning on the humidifier. Corrosive
-> effects on the gas nozzle would be possible, but I wouldn't expect those
-> to have been easily reversed by clearing the room air.
-> As far as the pipes go, It's very hard to get gas pipes to rumble or
-> much besides a quiet not-quite hissing of flow through the pipe. Water
-> pipes, on the other hand, have much more potential.
Restrict a gas pipe and the noise level will go up substantially,
however not really as describe as a rumble, more like a screech.
A water line normally is fairly quiet until you get into a situation of
water hammer. This will sound much more like the rumble, with an
occasional sharp ping. Also very easy in most cases to correct in a
resident with the addition of stub pipes.
-> Keith
Perry
Perry Farmer
-> From: mje kaya...@my-deja.com
-> >An orange gas flame is usually the sign of not enough oxygen- a redu
-> >flame. Could be that the chlorine vapors were causing the oxygen
-> >starvation. Might be a combination of both effects.
-> I would expect that Chlorine concentrations sufficient to cause O2 st
-> in a flame burning in air would likely be quite hazardous to life.
It may well be if breathe at the level of the burner. Chlorine is
heavier then air and even in very high concentrations the air that most
of us breathe may well be in an area that is not immediately hazardous.
In the case of O2 starvation it really doesn't take that much of a
change to cause a change in the color of a flame.
For a methane fire, the difference of 1% can be rather dramatic. You can
have a nice flame at an overall excess O2 of 2 or 3 percent and a very
ugly flame at 1.5%
-> Sean
Perry
Sean Houtman
>An orange gas flame is usually the sign of not enough oxygen- a reducing
>flame. Could be that the chlorine vapors were causing the oxygen
>starvation. Might be a combination of both effects.
I would expect that Chlorine concentrations sufficient to cause O2 starvation
in a flame burning in air would likely be quite hazardous to life.
Sean
--
Visit my photolog page; http://members.aol.com/grommit383/myhomepage
rob...@bestweb.net
>Being of an experimental turn, I shut off the heater and
>ventilated the bathroom more thoroughly (opened the window.
>Brr.) shortly before making my initial post. Then, a few
>hours later, I turned the heater back on. Sure enough, the
>flame was back to blue-at-bottom. Then I turned on the
>bleachy-humidifier for about five minutes, and, sure enough,
>the flame was orange again.
>So I left the heater off until I was done cleaning the
>humidifier. I also had worries about breathing the
>massive bleach-o-rama, and pretty much stayed out of
>the bathroom during the cleaning and post-cleaning
>ventilation phase.
>So, that all answers my first question. Cool, sodium.
That's not proven. Sodium does have a yellow flame, but aerosolized Na may
not be the cause of the color change, and chlorine vapor (or the vapor of
oxides of chlorine) may be responsible. Try leaving a dish of bleach open
near the heater; that way there'd be vapors (mostly of chlorine and
chlorine-oxygen species) but not much in the way of aerosol (so no sodium in
the air). Then see what the flame looks like.
Robert
Shawn Wilson
"John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:97564009...@pizza.crosslink.net...
> I also have a CO detector.
>
> The main flame from the insert is MOSTLY YELLOW.
>
> The CO detector had NEVER budged from zero even after running the gas log
> for hours.
Does it work?
Are you willing to bet your life that the sensor hasn't failed?
rob...@bestweb.net
>>I never thought that sodium hypochlorite can evaporate like
>>that. Are we sure? Is it possible that the odor is mainly
>>chlorine compounds sans sodium (e.g. Cl2), and that the
>>orange flame is anoxic, as was proposed as an alternative?
>Sodium spectral orange and reducing flame orange are very different
>looking. If it's a sodium spectral line thing, it will be a uniform
>color and look sort of soft and misty. If it's underoxidized, it
>will be uneven, brighter in places, and more yellow than orange.
>Additionally, the orange will start at the tips and work its way
>towards the nozzle -- the flame size will increase, too. The
>chlorine bleach smell is Cl2, and hypochlorites don't exist in a
>gasseous phase -- they can be aerosolized, however, and it only
>takes a tiny amount to change flame color. Mike P.
>"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum
>saxum immane mittam." -- Roman bank robber.
Quoted for cross posting to alt.fan.cecil-adams.
rob...@bestweb.net
>> Yes, I agree that a yellow flame is indicative of lack of
>>oxygenation, which could be dangerous.
>It ain't necessarily so!
>I have a fake gas log fireplace insert. The flue is blocked off
>so ALL the combustion products go into the family room.
>I also have a CO detector.
>The main flame from the insert is MOSTLY YELLOW.
>The CO detector had NEVER budged from zero even after running the
>gas log for hours.
>I suspect that the gas flame burns off the hydrogen first leaving
>behind the carbon. The carbon is heated to the point where it
>emits the yellow light and is oxidized to CO. The CO is burned to
>CO2 without much visible flame.
>My "chemistry" is entirely speculation on my part but there is no
>doubt that the gas log doesn't produce any really bad stuff.
>BTW: the gas log automatically shuts off the gas if the O2 level
>in the room falls below about 16%. I have never exercised or
>tested this feature.
Quoted for cross posting to rec.pyrotechnics.
rob...@bestweb.net
>>That's not proven. Sodium does have a yellow flame, but
>>aerosolized Na may not be the cause of the color change, and
>>chlorine vapor (or the vapor of oxides of chlorine) may be
>>responsible. Try leaving a dish of bleach open near the heater;
>>that way there'd be vapors (mostly of chlorine and chlorine-oxygen
>>species) but not much in the way of aerosol (so no sodium in the
>>air). Then see what the flame looks like.
>Chlorine doesn't have yellow spectral lines, and molecular
>emissions aren't often in the visible range. It's not from Cl2.
>Plus, it takes so little Na to cause big spectral emissions that
>simply placing an Na solution beside the flame could make it happen.
>You would have to use some non-Na based Cl compound to test it,
>like maybe potassium hypochlorite. Mike P.
>"Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum
>saxum immane mittam." -- Roman bank robber.
Quoted for cross posting to alt.fan.cecil-adams. Why don't you guys take
care to maintain the cross-posting?
Helge Moulding
>> I never thought that sodium hypochlorite can evaporate like
>> that.
I'll accept that. Never having seen a humidifier that you'd run
bleach through, I sort of assumed that she had it sitting in her
tub, quietly soaking. But if it is turned on and running the
bleach through, then that's a different matter. (Isn't that
horribly hazardous? I can't stand going in the bathroom when my
wife is cleaning the shower with bleach, and I get coughing
fits just adding bleach to the laundry. Guess why I changed
majors from chemistry to physics, back in college.)
The only humidifier I've ever owned is the steam type, and you
definitely *don't* run bleach through those. I have to take ours
apart every few weeks, and scrape the scale deposits off the
elements. It's a curious grayish black stuff, which makes me
wonder what all is in my water.
Sean Houtman
>It may well be if breathe at the level of the burner. Chlorine is
>heavier then air and even in very high concentrations the air that most
>of us breathe may well be in an area that is not immediately hazardous.
>
Presumably, the humidifier would be mixing the Chlorine into the air instead of
just dumping it in en masse. Gasses don't stratify much after mixing, otherwise
the problem with Chlorofluourocarbons in the Ozone layer wouldn't exist.
>In the case of O2 starvation it really doesn't take that much of a
>change to cause a change in the color of a flame.
>
>For a methane fire, the difference of 1% can be rather dramatic. You can
>have a nice flame at an overall excess O2 of 2 or 3 percent and a very
>ugly flame at 1.5%
To reduce the O2 partial pressure by 1% (from 21 to 20), you would need to have
about 4-5% Chlorine gas in the air, quite enough to cause difficulties.
According to c-f-c.com, "Chlorine gas is a respiratory irritant which affects
the mucous membranes. It can be fatal after a few breaths at 1000 ppm.
Therefore, users of chlorine gas must exercise extreme caution to ensure that
it is safely injected. Maximum air concentrations should not exceed 1 ppm for
prolonged exposure." http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/chlorine.htm 1000ppm
is 0.1%, far below the level needed to cause an O2 starvation effect. Since the
original poster continues to comment on the issue, I take it that a fatal dose
has not yet been achieved.
John Gilmer
"Shawn Wilson" <shawn....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:mJEV5.3752$Ei1.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
> news:97564009...@pizza.crosslink.net...
>
> > I also have a CO detector.
> >
> > The main flame from the insert is MOSTLY YELLOW.
> >
> > The CO detector had NEVER budged from zero even after running the gas
log
> > for hours.
>
>
> Does it work?
It passes it's internal diagnostic.
>
> Are you willing to bet your life that the sensor hasn't failed?
In a sense, yes.
In any practical sense, no.
I don't sleep with the burner on (BTW it also serves as the house heat
backup during long electrical outages).
My point is that a yellow flame doesn't necessary mean that CO is being
produced. It's possible that NOx is being produced as you have the
following factors: Temperature, Excess O2, Nitrogen.
>
>
>
>
Perry Farmer
-> From: perry....@thefarm.tzo.com (Perry Farmer)
-> >It may well be if breathe at the level of the burner. Chlorine is
-> >heavier then air and even in very high concentrations the air that most
-> >of us breathe may well be in an area that is not immediately hazardous.
-> >
-> Presumably, the humidifier would be mixing the Chlorine into the air
-> just dumping it in en masse. Gasses don't stratify much after mixing,
-> the problem with Chlorofluourocarbons in the Ozone layer wouldn't exist.
Actually they can stratify greatly, the basics behind rovacs and various
other heat tubes. O2 will in fact stratify greatly in various ductwork
leading from boilers. It is not uncommon to see excess O2 range from 1%
on one probe to 4% on another within a 12' rectangular duct. This is one
of the reasons we use a total of 6 such probes 3 per duct, then average
the result to indicate boiler excess O2 (the other of course being
redundancy).
The case of the humidifier however brings into it, some other then the
typical situation of "dumping it in en masse". That is unless you can
define atomizing it as "dumping it in en masse" since it certainly is
doing that more efficiently then simply leaving a container open to the
atmosphere due to a increase in surface area.
-> >In the case of O2 starvation it really doesn't take that much of a
-> >change to cause a change in the color of a flame.
-> >
-> >For a methane fire, the difference of 1% can be rather dramatic. You
-> >have a nice flame at an overall excess O2 of 2 or 3 percent and a very
-> >ugly flame at 1.5%
-> To reduce the O2 partial pressure by 1% (from 21 to 20), you would ne
-> about 4-5% Chlorine gas in the air, quite enough to cause difficulties.
Difficulties at what level. In the case mentioned I was referring to the
level of the burner versus the level of the nose.
-> According to c-f-c.com, "Chlorine gas is a respiratory irritant which
-> the mucous membranes. It can be fatal after a few breaths at 1000 ppm.
-> Therefore, users of chlorine gas must exercise extreme caution to ens
-> it is safely injected. Maximum air concentrations should not exceed 1
-> prolonged exposure." http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/chlorine.h
-> is 0.1%, far below the level needed to cause an O2 starvation effect.
-> original poster continues to comment on the issue, I take it that a f
-> has not yet been achieved.
A real world example. About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facility who
was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11 2 ton
bottles of liquid chlorine.
In my first trip with my supervisor, we headed up the hill. What we saw
horrified us. We could see a river of solution heading down the drainage
ditch right next to the truck, but we could smell nothing in the way of
chlorine.
We next went back and picked up Scott Air packs, put the masks on,
placing the bottles on the seat of the pickup. A 4 or 6" line had broken
right off after the solution water mixed with the chlorine. None of the
building alarms went off even though they are sensitive enough to pretty
much pick up a few drops on the flour of the building. The alarms have
pipes that go down and make a right angle turn right at floor level.
I can assure you that are the same level as what is being describe as
the burner level, the chlorine level certainly was lethal. At our
breathing level however it was hard to pick up at all.
Now if you want to go with SO2, then the best thing I can tell you about
it is that there is no doubt at all when there is a leak. We used to
inject SO3 by running SO2 through a catalytic convertor into the mouths
of our electrostatic precipitators in order to improve the electrical
characteristics of the flyash.
Seems funny in some ways because then we were allowed to have this rose
colored plume passing over I5, now we are spending about 250,000,000 to
reduce our SO2 down to about 10% of our current allowed levels.
-> Sean
Perry
Perry Farmer
-> "Shawn Wilson" <shawn....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
-> news:mJEV5.3752$Ei1.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
-> >
-> > "John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
-> > news:97564009...@pizza.crosslink.net...
-> >
-> > > I also have a CO detector.
-> > >
-> > > The main flame from the insert is MOSTLY YELLOW.
-> > >
-> > > The CO detector had NEVER budged from zero even after running the
-> log
-> > > for hours.
-> >
-> >
-> > Does it work?
-> It passes it's internal diagnostic.
-> >
-> > Are you willing to bet your life that the sensor hasn't failed?
-> In a sense, yes.
-> In any practical sense, no.
-> I don't sleep with the burner on (BTW it also serves as the house heat
-> backup during long electrical outages).
-> My point is that a yellow flame doesn't necessary mean that CO is being
-> produced. It's possible that NOx is being produced as you have the
-> following factors: Temperature, Excess O2, Nitrogen.
Actually as important as Temperature is the mix, the real importance is
where the excess air is being introduced into the flame. Introduce it on
the outside layer of the fireball and you will have reduced NOX.
Perry
Sean Houtman
>The case of the humidifier however brings into it, some other then the
>typical situation of "dumping it in en masse". That is unless you can
>define atomizing it as "dumping it in en masse" since it certainly is
>doing that more efficiently then simply leaving a container open to the
>atmosphere due to a increase in surface area.
I haven't met a humidifier that didn't have some sort of fan involved,
intending the humid air to get mixed into the regular air, water vapor is
lighter than air, after all.
>Difficulties at what level. In the case mentioned I was referring to the
>level of the burner versus the level of the nose.
Difficulties with breathing, seeing, etc.
>
>A real world example. About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
>report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facility who
>was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
>treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11 2 ton
>bottles of liquid chlorine.
<snip for space>
That would be the dumping it in en masse, without a fan to mix it into the air
with. This will cause the denser gas to displace the air.
Sean
--
Visit my photolog page; http://members.aol.com/grommit383/myhomepage
Last updated 10-25-00
Perry Farmer
-> From: perry....@thefarm.tzo.com (Perry Farmer)
-> >The case of the humidifier however brings into it, some other then the
-> >typical situation of "dumping it in en masse". That is unless you can
-> >define atomizing it as "dumping it in en masse" since it certainly is
-> >doing that more efficiently then simply leaving a container open to the
-> >atmosphere due to a increase in surface area.
-> I haven't met a humidifier that didn't have some sort of fan involved,
-> intending the humid air to get mixed into the regular air, water vapo
-> lighter than air, after all.
I haven't used one that had a fan.
-> >Difficulties at what level. In the case mentioned I was referring to
-> >level of the burner versus the level of the nose.
-> Difficulties with breathing, seeing, etc.
That is at mouth level an above, but again a humidifier brings a whole
different aspect to the situation.
-> >
-> >A real world example. About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
-> >report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facility
-> >was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
-> >treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11 2 ton
-> >bottles of liquid chlorine.
-> <snip for space>
-> That would be the dumping it in en masse, without a fan to mix it int
-> with. This will cause the denser gas to displace the air.
But the chlorine has to come out of the solution which is water. This is
of course the case due to relatively low boiling point of chlorine.
-> Sean
Perry
Briar Rose
>Keith Rickert wrote,
>>> I never thought that sodium hypochlorite can evaporate like
>>> that.
>>I don't think the sodium is evaporating per se - she only saw the
>>phenomenon with the humidifier on. Humidifiers do a really good
>>job of aerosolizing their contents
>I'll accept that. Never having seen a humidifier that you'd run
>bleach through, I sort of assumed that she had it sitting in her
>tub, quietly soaking. But if it is turned on and running the
>bleach through, then that's a different matter.
Yeah, that's what I was doing - running a weak solution
of bleach through the humidifier.
>(Isn't that
>horribly hazardous?
It's what the care instructions say to do. Of course, they
also say to do it in a well-ventilated place, which it appears
my bathroom was not.
>The only humidifier I've ever owned is the steam type, and you
>definitely *don't* run bleach through those. I have to take ours
>apart every few weeks, and scrape the scale deposits off the
>elements.
Steam type? You mean it heats the water up first? I used to
have one of those, and I ran vinegar water through it to clean
the scale off. All the elements and suchlike were closed off,
so I couldn't have opened it to scrape scale without busting
through some plastic.
Shalom Septimus
wrote:
>Helge Moulding <hmou...@excite.com> wrote:
>>The only humidifier I've ever owned is the steam type, and you
>>definitely *don't* run bleach through those. I have to take ours
>>apart every few weeks, and scrape the scale deposits off the
>>elements.
>
>Steam type? You mean it heats the water up first? I used to
>have one of those, and I ran vinegar water through it to clean
>the scale off. All the elements and suchlike were closed off,
>so I couldn't have opened it to scrape scale without busting
>through some plastic.
That sort is properly called a vaporizer (although I've generally
heard the terms used interchangeably). It has two electrodes, carbon
rods in the newer ones, brass in the old models, and when you plugged
it in, it ran electric current through the water, thus boiling it and
creating steam. Of course, any crud in the water was thus concentrated
and eventually plated out on the electrodes, increasing the resistance
to the point where it wouldn't pass enough current to heat the water
anymore. Then you looked for some tiny screws holding the bottom on
the unit, unscrewed them, and scraped the aforementioned crud off the
electrodes.
If you live where the water is relatively hard, it will often pass
enough current to start boiling by itself. In New York City, where the
water is pretty soft, we had to add some weak electrolyte (generally a
pinch of baking soda) to get it to start boiling. (Once I couldn't
find any baking soda in the house-- seems my dad had taken the only
box upstairs for his own vaporizer-- so I dropped in a couple aspirin;
this seemed to work OK.)
I've often wondered why these only boiled the water, and didn't
electrolyze it. How come you don't get hydrogen and oxygen coming off
with your steam? If you added a strong electrolyte (salt, e.g.) would
this be more likely to happen, or would you just blow the fuse by
drawing too much current?
--
Shalom Septimus
rob...@bestweb.net
>>Helge Moulding <hmou...@excite.com> wrote:
>Shalom Septimus
>--
Think: AC vs. DC.
GrapeApe
> >heard the terms used interchangeably). It has two electrodes, carbon
> >rods in the newer ones, brass in the old models, and when you
> >plugged it in, it ran electric current through the water, thus
> >boiling it and creating steam. Of course, any crud in the water was
> >thus concentrated and eventually plated out on the electrodes,
> >increasing the resistance to the point where it wouldn't pass
> >enough current to heat the water anymore. Then you looked for some
> >tiny screws holding the bottom on the unit, unscrewed them, and
> >scraped the aforementioned crud off the electrodes.
Have they ever designed one with a circuit that would occasionally reverse the
polarity? That way, any thing plated in one direction couid be knocked back
into solution the other way. Self cleaning electolytic humidification, baby!
--cut and paste to adopt this sig file---
Make Deja a useful Usenet Archive again!
StarChaser_Tyger
>On 2000-12-03 drug...@p0b0x.c0m said:
V--humidifiers
> >I've often wondered why these only boiled the water, and didn't
> >electrolyze it. How come you don't get hydrogen and oxygen coming
> >off with your steam? If you added a strong electrolyte (salt, e.g.)
> >would this be more likely to happen, or would you just blow the
> >fuse by drawing too much current?
> >Shalom Septimus
>Think: AC vs. DC.
AC will still electrolyze water, you just get a mix of hydrogen and
oxygen, instead of clean gases.
--
Visit the Furry Artist InFURmation Page! Contact information, which artists
do and don't want their work posted. http://web.tampabay.rr.com/starchsr/
Address no longer munged for the inconvienence of spammers.
(Yes, this really is me.)
Perry Farmer
-> What's that, Lassie? rob...@bestweb.net said,
-> >On 2000-12-03 drug...@p0b0x.c0m said:
-> V--humidifiers
-> > >I've often wondered why these only boiled the water, and didn't
-> > >electrolyze it. How come you don't get hydrogen and oxygen coming
-> > >off with your steam? If you added a strong electrolyte (salt, e.g.)
-> > >would this be more likely to happen, or would you just blow the
-> > >fuse by drawing too much current?
-> > >Shalom Septimus
-> >Think: AC vs. DC.
-> AC will still electrolyze water, you just get a mix of hydrogen and
-> oxygen, instead of clean gases.
This star guy is basically cracking correct.
Perry
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton
> Have they ever designed one with a circuit that would occasionally reverse the
> polarity?
Yep, about 60 times a second.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <nospam...@gmx.li>
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
GrapeApe
>the
>> polarity?
>
>Yep, about 60 times a second.
I put that 2 and 2 toegther a few messages up, but thanks anyway.
I was thinking those little humidifier dealies were like DC electrolysis, then
realized they weren't
But they still plate. If it were a DC model that switch the polarity every five
minutes, would it be more likely to be able to knock off the scale it creates?
Would the cycle being slowed down make a difference?
Keith Rickert
grap...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe) wrote:
> >> Have they ever designed one with a circuit that would occasionally reverse
> >the
> >> polarity?
> >
> >Yep, about 60 times a second.
>
> I put that 2 and 2 toegther a few messages up, but thanks anyway.
> I was thinking those little humidifier dealies were like DC electrolysis, then
> realized they weren't
>
> But they still plate. If it were a DC model that switch the polarity
every five
> minutes, would it be more likely to be able to knock off the scale it creates?
> Would the cycle being slowed down make a difference?
>
Probably not, since the scale in question isn't the result of electrolytic
plating, but just deposition of precipitated salts already present in the
water.
GrapeApe
>plating, but just deposition of precipitated salts already present in the
>water.
Salts are pretty polar in nature, and you can certainly collect them with
electrolysis.
Keith Rickert
grap...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe) wrote:
> >Probably not, since the scale in question isn't the result of electrolytic
> >plating, but just deposition of precipitated salts already present in the
> >water.
>
> Salts are pretty polar in nature, and you can certainly collect them with
> electrolysis.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by collect.
Although a salt may be pretty polar, the solid particles don't
particularly carry a net charge, and so shouldn't have a huge tendency to
collect on a particular electrode - they come out over all surfaces inside
the humidifier.
Perry Farmer
-> >Probably not, since the scale in question isn't the result of electr
-> >plating, but just deposition of precipitated salts already present i
-> >water.
-> Salts are pretty polar in nature, and you can certainly collect them
-> electrolysis.
You could use a sacrificial electrode to help keep the others clean.
Perry
GrapeApe
>I'm not quite sure what you mean by collect.
>Although a salt may be pretty polar, the solid particles don't
>particularly carry a net charge, and so shouldn't have a huge tendency to
>collect on a particular electrode - they come out over all surfaces inside
>the humidifier.
Other than the electrodes themselves, especially if the polarity is changed
enough to knock off the crud.
The ions themselves would naturally enough be more likely to go to the
electrodes
Once in solution, do salts necessarily dissassociate their cations from their
anions? Or does the solute, such as water, just decide to hug up to the salt
molecule?
Keith Rickert
grap...@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe) wrote:
> >
> >I'm not quite sure what you mean by collect.
> >Although a salt may be pretty polar, the solid particles don't
> >particularly carry a net charge, and so shouldn't have a huge tendency to
> >collect on a particular electrode - they come out over all surfaces inside
> >the humidifier.
>
> Other than the electrodes themselves, especially if the polarity is changed
> enough to knock off the crud.
>
> The ions themselves would naturally enough be more likely to go to the
> electrodes
>
> Once in solution, do salts necessarily dissassociate their cations from their
> anions? Or does the solute, such as water, just decide to hug up to the salt
> molecule?
Since the crud isn't sticking by polarity, I don't see how changing it
will do much.
While in solution, the salts are dissociated, but the minor concentration
gradients you will form aren't really that relevant - you won't get the
solid particles at either electrode without having both a cation and an
anion present.
You can form scale pretty efficiently all over the inside of a kettle with
no electric fields at all.
Perry Farmer
-> >I'm not quite sure what you mean by collect.
-> >Although a salt may be pretty polar, the solid particles don't
-> >particularly carry a net charge, and so shouldn't have a huge tenden
-> >collect on a particular electrode - they come out over all surfaces
-> >the humidifier.
-> Other than the electrodes themselves, especially if the polarity is c
-> enough to knock off the crud.
-> The ions themselves would naturally enough be more likely to go to the
-> electrodes
-> Once in solution, do salts necessarily dissassociate their cations fr
-> anions? Or does the solute, such as water, just decide to hug up to t
-> molecule?
Look up demineralizers by companies such as Iowa Water Treatment Company
(IWT) or Permutit.
Perry
Greg Goss
>>About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
>>report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facility who
>>was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
>>treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11 2 ton
>>bottles of liquid chlorine.
I lived for a few years in a town with a fertilizer plant. I was told
(by friends, not the authorities) that if I ever heard 8 blasts on the
factory airhorn I was to junp into a shower and stay there with the
water running.
Would running water really absorb enough ammonia to make a difference?
If an ammonia tank on a hill ruptured, would the vapours (weight 18?)
get into the valley at all displacing the heavier air (weight between
28 and 32)?
rob...@bestweb.net
>Once in solution, do salts necessarily dissassociate their cations
>from their anions?
Yes.
>Or does the solute, such as water,
You mean solVENT.
>just decide
>to hug up to the salt molecule?
No. And except for macromolecular salts, there's not even such a thing as a
"salt molecule", but just the ions alternating in a crystal.
Robert in the Bronx
GrapeApe
>as a
>"salt molecule", but just the ions alternating in a crystal.
So its either an array of 4 Na and 4 Cl, to create the smallest possible
crystal, or completely free ions?
StarChaser_Tyger
>>From: perry....@thefarm.tzo.com (Perry Farmer)
>>>About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
>>>report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facility who
>>>was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
>>>treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11 2 ton
>>>bottles of liquid chlorine.
>
>I lived for a few years in a town with a fertilizer plant. I was told
>(by friends, not the authorities) that if I ever heard 8 blasts on the
>factory airhorn I was to junp into a shower and stay there with the
>water running.
>
>Would running water really absorb enough ammonia to make a difference?
>If an ammonia tank on a hill ruptured, would the vapours (weight 18?)
>get into the valley at all displacing the heavier air (weight between
>28 and 32)?
Yes. Ammonia gas is very water-soluble. One of the last things I saw
in my science class in 9th grade was a demonstration of this.
A big round-ass flask <I dunno what they're technically called> held
upside down over a triangular flask <ditto> filled with ammonia with a
plug and a tube extending up into the round one, over a burner.
Nothing happened for a while, and the teacher said 'So you don't
believe there's any ammonia gas in here? Come here <pointing at me,
who happened to be sitting nearest> and smell it.'
I did, and after I finished rubbing my eyes and the rest of the class
stopped laughing, he thanked me for demonstrating two things; that
there was actually gas in the flask, and that there was a good reason
he said to wave your hand to bring a smell to you, rather than you
going to it...
He then got a second round flask half filled with water with a tube
from the water through a stopper, with a small jet point on the tip.
He put that through another stopper, along with a small syringe with
some water in it, and corked the gas flask. <external camera view:
Looked kind of like an hourglass. Gas flask on top, stopper with
syringe and jet tube, leading down through a two hole stopper in the
bottom flask into the water.>
He pressed the syringe, shooting a little water into the gas, and
suddenly the water from the bottom flask was being sucked up and
fountaining into the top, turning purple in the process. He explained
that the gas was being absorbed into the water so quickly it was
creating a vacuum in the top flask, which drew more water up through
the tube. The purple was an indicator chemical of some sort.
Boron Elgar
<StarC...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
>Yes. Ammonia gas is very water-soluble. One of the last things I saw
>in my science class in 9th grade was a demonstration of this.
>
>A big round-ass flask <I dunno what they're technically called>
Florence!
Boron
Perry Farmer
-> >From: perry....@thefarm.tzo.com (Perry Farmer)
-> >>About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
-> >>report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facilit
-> >>was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
-> >>treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11 2 ton
-> >>bottles of liquid chlorine.
-> I lived for a few years in a town with a fertilizer plant. I was told
-> (by friends, not the authorities) that if I ever heard 8 blasts on the
-> factory airhorn I was to junp into a shower and stay there with the
-> water running.
-> Would running water really absorb enough ammonia to make a difference?
-> If an ammonia tank on a hill ruptured, would the vapours (weight 18?)
-> get into the valley at all displacing the heavier air (weight between
-> 28 and 32)?
I don't have experience with ammonia, although I have a lot of
experience with chlorine and SO2.
I think what your shower would do is provide authorities with a clean
body.
Perry
John Gilmer
"Greg Goss" <go...@mindlink.com> wrote in message
news:5DD121DA987F4A8E.DE86D03F...@lp.airnews.net...
> >From: perry....@thefarm.tzo.com (Perry Farmer)
> >>About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
> >>report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facility who
> >>was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
> >>treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11 2 ton
> >>bottles of liquid chlorine.
>
>
> Would running water really absorb enough ammonia to make a difference?
If it were a COLD shower it just might make the difference.
Other tricks might be breathing through a vinegar soaked cloth.
Just staying inside with the doors and windows closed would not hurt.
Perry Farmer
-> What's that, Lassie? Greg Goss <go...@mindlink.com> said,
-> >>From: perry....@thefarm.tzo.com (Perry Farmer)
-> >>>About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
-> >>>report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facili
-> >>>was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
-> >>>treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11 2
-> >>>bottles of liquid chlorine.
-> >
-> >I lived for a few years in a town with a fertilizer plant. I was told
-> >(by friends, not the authorities) that if I ever heard 8 blasts on the
-> >factory airhorn I was to junp into a shower and stay there with the
-> >water running.
-> >
-> >Would running water really absorb enough ammonia to make a difference?
-> >If an ammonia tank on a hill ruptured, would the vapours (weight 18?)
-> >get into the valley at all displacing the heavier air (weight between
-> >28 and 32)?
-> Yes. Ammonia gas is very water-soluble. One of the last things I saw
-> in my science class in 9th grade was a demonstration of this.
-> A big round-ass flask <I dunno what they're technically called> held
-> upside down over a triangular flask <ditto> filled with ammonia with a
-> plug and a tube extending up into the round one, over a burner.
-> Nothing happened for a while, and the teacher said 'So you don't
-> believe there's any ammonia gas in here? Come here <pointing at me,
-> who happened to be sitting nearest> and smell it.'
You never pointed out that there would be no air to breathe. Even if the
water was able to absorb the ammonia in any real amount, it would simply
be replaced by more ammonia.
Your best bet if you hear the alarm is to head for high ground as far
away from the source as you can get to.
In the shower you may be clean, but you also will likely be dead.
-> Visit the Furry Artist InFURmation Page! Contact information, which a
Perry
Perry Farmer
-> "Greg Goss" <go...@mindlink.com> wrote in message
-> news:5DD121DA987F4A8E.DE86D03F...@lp.airnews.ne
-> > >From: perry....@thefarm.tzo.com (Perry Farmer)
-> > >>About 1978 I was involved in investigating a
-> > >>report of "smelling like a swimming pool" by a guard at our facil
-> > >>was in a guard house at the bottom of the hill next to our chlorine
-> > >>treatment plant for our cooling towers. This plant held up to 11
-> > >>bottles of liquid chlorine.
-> >
-> > I lived for a few years in a town with a fertilizer plant. I was told
-> > (by friends, not the authorities) that if I ever heard 8 blasts on the
-> > factory airhorn I was to junp into a shower and stay there with the
-> > water running.
-> >
-> > Would running water really absorb enough ammonia to make a difference?
-> > If an ammonia tank on a hill ruptured, would the vapours (weight 18?)
-> > get into the valley at all displacing the heavier air (weight between
-> > 28 and 32)?
-> If it were a COLD shower it just might make the difference.
-> Other tricks might be breathing through a vinegar soaked cloth.
Rereading this and it comes down to concentration levels.
My belief is if you end up with concentration levels sufficient to be
immediately life threatening, then the shower would do you little good
since the air in the shower would not be replenished.
-> Just staying inside with the doors and windows closed would not hurt.
If this is the strategy, then one needs to also remember, at least in
newer homes, to turn off the furnace and/or house ventilator. Your
filters will do little to stop ammonia.
Perry
Greg Goss
>> Would running water really absorb enough ammonia to make a difference?
>> If an ammonia tank on a hill ruptured, would the vapours (weight 18?)
>> get into the valley at all displacing the heavier air (weight between
>> 28 and 32)?
>
>If it were a COLD shower it just might make the difference.
I had electric water heater. After 5 minutes ...
Greg Goss
>In article <5DD121DA987F4A8E.DE86D03F...@lp.airnews.net>,
>Greg Goss <go...@mindlink.com> wrote:
>
>>If an ammonia tank on a hill ruptured, would the vapours (weight 18?)
>>get into the valley at all displacing the heavier air (weight between
>>28 and 32)?
>
>If it's really that much less dense than air (mol. wt. approximately .21*28 +
>.79*32 =~ 31), it would rise, not sink.
That was pretty much implied in my question. The "fill the valley"
concept was presented to me in '81, and I believed it at the time, but
when I was typing the question for AFCA, the further question arose.
Is ammonia a light gas like methane?
John Gilmer
The ammonia gas would be quite cold and the vaporization would cool some of
the remaining liquid so that it would hang around. I think ammonia is about
the same molecular weight as methane. The nitrogen is heavier than the
carbon atom but the methane has one more hydrogen.
StarChaser_Tyger
>eb...@pc.tampabay.rr.com (Hactar) wrote:
In the experiment I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the
teacher held the flask containing ammonia gas upside down the whole
time he had it filled. I'd guess it was...
Chris
<StarC...@mindless.com> said:
>What's that, Lassie? Greg Goss <go...@mindlink.com> said,
>
>>eb...@pc.tampabay.rr.com (Hactar) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <5DD121DA987F4A8E.DE86D03F...@lp.airnews.net>,
>>>Greg Goss <go...@mindlink.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>If an ammonia tank on a hill ruptured, would the vapours (weight 18?)
>>>>get into the valley at all displacing the heavier air (weight between
>>>>28 and 32)?
>>>
>>>If it's really that much less dense than air (mol. wt. approximately .21*28 +
>>>.79*32 =~ 31), it would rise, not sink.
>>
>>That was pretty much implied in my question. The "fill the valley"
>>concept was presented to me in '81, and I believed it at the time, but
>>when I was typing the question for AFCA, the further question arose.
>>Is ammonia a light gas like methane?
>
>In the experiment I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the
>teacher held the flask containing ammonia gas upside down the whole
>time he had it filled. I'd guess it was...
Ammonia is distinctly lighter than air *at the same tempurature*. If the
ammonia gas is appreciably colder that the surrounding air, it could easily
be heavier than it. I wouldn't be surprised if ammonia would be stored at
cold tempuratures; it liquifies at ~ -38.5C, at standard pressure.
--
One for the money,
Two for the show,
Three to get ready,
And four lines total.
ctc...@my-deja.com
Chri...@nwlink.comment (Chris) wrote:
>
> Ammonia is distinctly lighter than air *at the same tempurature*. If
the
> ammonia gas is appreciably colder that the surrounding air, it could
easily
> be heavier than it. I wouldn't be surprised if ammonia would be
stored at
> cold tempuratures; it liquifies at ~ -38.5C, at standard pressure.
Equally as important, it liquifies at room temperature under ~7 atm of
pressure, and is often stored this way for agricultural use. If a
tank of pressurized, liquified, normal temp ammonia ruptured, the
liquid would roll down hill, shedding gas and heat, cooling itself to
the normal boiling point and killing anything in its path with
corrosive suffocating vapors and frostbite.
Xho
and killing
>
> --
> One for the money,
> Two for the show,
> Three to get ready,
> And four lines total.
>
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