Ad Reinhardt? What's a black painting worth, anyone know?
Richard
paintings with no color or form, cool) but for the life of me I can't figure
out what they sell for.
The Chicago Museum of Contemporary Art has one, as does the MoMa in New
York, so I doubt they are cheap.
Does anyone have any clue what these paintings go for in auction? Or in a
gallery? I figure someone here at acfa knows their art inside and out.
Help!
JmG
>I want to buy a black painting by Ad Reinhardt (modern artist, painted oil
>paintings with no color or form, cool) but for the life of me I can't figure
>out what they sell for.
Under proper lighting you'll see the painting isn't 'black' but dark rectangles
painted over each other in slightly different shades of black. He's done the
same with reds and blues. It's a stunning effect when your eye finally sees it.
J
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:56:34 GMT, "Richard" <ser...@electrogram.com> wrote:
>
>>I want to buy a black painting by Ad Reinhardt (modern artist, painted oil
>>paintings with no color or form, cool) but for the life of me I can't figure
>>out what they sell for.
>>
>>The Chicago Museum of Contemporary Art has one, as does the MoMa in New
>>York, so I doubt they are cheap.
>
>
>The Emperor has no clothes, has he?
>
Well, this Empress will paint him one for a a lot tless than he'll pay
for Reinhardt.
If he's interested in progresssing from all black & into blocks of
color at all, try early to middlin' Rothko. Much nicer. If you want
dark & depresing, go to the end-stage Rothko before he offed himself.
Boron
Journey into Dutch Courage
Date: 3/6/2001 9:45 AM Eastern Standard Time writes:
>On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:56:34 GMT, "Richard" <ser...@electrogram.com> wrote:
>
>>I want to buy a black painting by Ad Reinhardt (modern artist, painted oil
>>paintings with no color or form, cool) but for the life of me I can't figure
>>out what they sell for.
>>
>>The Chicago Museum of Contemporary Art has one, as does the MoMa in New
>>York, so I doubt they are cheap.
>
>
>The Emperor has no clothes, has he?
Perhaps you should go into art, Geno. I assume it, you know, beats working.
Imperious Rex!
Boron Elgar
Dutch Courage) wrote:
I truly believe there is an Emporer's New Clothes school of art, tho.
I saw a piece from it at the Whitney 2 weeks ago, Twenty or 30 plastic
soda bottles, with labels removed & partially filled with water, were
hanging on a rope, in a clothesline fashion.
It's bullshit, Dutch, and believe me, I really love crazy art.
Boron
Journey into Dutch Courage
>On 06 Mar 2001 15:49:44 GMT, mutigho...@aol.comMMMS (Journey into
>Dutch Courage) wrote:
>
>>GO-SPAM-YO-...@bigfoot.com
>>Date: 3/6/2001 9:45 AM Eastern Standard Time writes:
>>
>>>On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:56:34 GMT, "Richard" <ser...@electrogram.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I want to buy a black painting by Ad Reinhardt (modern artist, painted oil
>>>>paintings with no color or form, cool) but for the life of me I can't
>figure
>>>>out what they sell for.
>>>>
>>>>The Chicago Museum of Contemporary Art has one, as does the MoMa in New
>>>>York, so I doubt they are cheap.
>>>
>>>
>>>The Emperor has no clothes, has he?
>>
>> Perhaps you should go into art, Geno. I assume it, you know, beats working.
>>
>
>I truly believe there is an Emporer's New Clothes school of art, tho.
Of course there is.
>I saw a piece from it at the Whitney 2 weeks ago, Twenty or 30 plastic
>soda bottles, with labels removed & partially filled with water, were
>hanging on a rope, in a clothesline fashion.
Huh.
>It's bullshit, Dutch, and believe me, I really love crazy art.
Anyway, its not a very interesting idea or image, sure. I'd have to see the
reviews before I was sure if anyone was being fooled.
Imperious Rex!
Boron Elgar
Dutch Courage) wrote:
Somehow I have the feeling that the mere description, with which I
have been honest & forthright, would assure that at least two people
had not been fooled.
Boron
Richard
away from using color in his work, then finally stopped using form.
My wallpaper on my computer is one of his "black" paintings, which is really
a series of squares.
So, how much are these going for at auction?
"JmG" <jmg...@bestweb.net> wrote in message
news:62o9at4sql8c0qn1n...@4ax.com...
Anny Middon
news:SK0p6.179$m9.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
According to
http://www.artnet.com/magazine/news/waltzer/waltzer11-15-00.asp
"Lannan's blue Ad Reinhardt painting turned out to be the second most costly
Reinhardt in auction history, selling at $500,000. The first sold for just
over a million in 1990. "
Assuming that a black one costs much the same as a blue one, you'd better
have a pretty big budget for art.
Anny
Dr H
I don't know about Reinhardt's, but some of the Rauschenberg all-black
and all-white paintings done in the late 50s-early 60s went for as much
as ~$20-30,000, IIRC.
But we have a local artist who does all-black living-room wall sized
canvases for as little as $950. :-)
Dr H
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:28:08 -0800, Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
>
>
>> I don't know about Reinhardt's, but some of the Rauschenberg all-black
>> and all-white paintings done in the late 50s-early 60s went for as much
>> as ~$20-30,000, IIRC.
>>
>> But we have a local artist who does all-black living-room wall sized
>> canvases for as little as $950. :-)
>
>
>Shit, I'll do a room-sized canvas in any damn color you want, for $500 (plus the
>cost of supplies).
>
> -- Geno
I actually went looking all over to try to find some prices & could
not. He is not as prolific as some so it may take more digging. I came
real close a couple of times, tho...
Boron
Ixion
soda bottles, with labels removed & partially filled with water, were
hanging on a rope, in a clothesline fashion.>>>
Who was the genius who paid other people to paint for him, and then signed his
own name? I can't be sure, but I smell Jeff Koons.
EdGein15
Turn me on, dead man
Richard
> I actually went looking all over to try to find some prices & could
> not. He is not as prolific as some so it may take more digging. I came
> real close a couple of times, tho...
>
> Boron
>
find art prices online.
What's up with that?
Hugh Jass
wrote:
>Shit, I'll do a room-sized canvas in any damn color you want, for $500 (plus the
>cost of supplies).
>
That's still kind of steep. When my friends and I paint each others
houses, we usually pay each other in beer.
Hugh
(Home Improvement Tip: Never pass out the beer until the painting
party is finished!)
Journey into Dutch Courage
Date: 3/6/2001 9:12 PM Eastern Standard Time writes:
>On Wed, 07 Mar 2001 01:29:09 GMT, Boron Elgar <kalk...@bwu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>I actually went looking all over to try to find some prices & could
>>not. He is not as prolific as some so it may take more digging. I came
>>real close a couple of times, tho...
>
>
>He's not prolific, because he spends many months, even years, on each work.
It's entirely possible, if he's working in oil.
>Yeah, that's the ticket. That must be why his stuff is so pricey.
Well, I assume its pricey because some people with a lot of money want it.
Imperious Rex!
Boron Elgar
wrote:
There are no price lists. per se. Each work is unique & its ultimate
price depends on any number of factors at the moment of its sale. The
only thing you can find once in awhile are prices that have been paid
at auction and those do not necessarily indicate what the work or
similar works would go for in the future.
Boron
Lesmond
>I truly believe there is an Emporer's New Clothes school of art, tho.
>I saw a piece from it at the Whitney 2 weeks ago, Twenty or 30 plastic
>soda bottles, with labels removed & partially filled with water, were
>hanging on a rope, in a clothesline fashion.
>
>It's bullshit, Dutch, and believe me, I really love crazy art.
>
A few years back I was at MoMA and one of the exhibits was a rack of tools,
regular hammers, chisels, etc. spray painted. Just a rack of tools on the
wall that someone had attached and spray painted one solid color, including
the wall behind it. There was also a giant stuffed crayon on the floor. I
believe I said "Huh".
Journey into Dutch Courage
>A few years back I was at MoMA and one of the exhibits was a rack of tools,
>regular hammers, chisels, etc. spray painted. Just a rack of tools on the
>wall that someone had attached and spray painted one solid color, including
>the wall behind it. There was also a giant stuffed crayon on the floor. I
>believe I said "Huh".
I can find some really bad apotheosises, and several pieces by Bach sound like
someone noodling around on a harpsicord. I guess that means the Barouqe was a
sham.
Imperious Rex!
Lesmond
Oh, it has nothing to do with art in general. If everything I saw in a
museum was like these examples, I certainly would not have said "Huh". I
probably would not have been there in the first place.
Dr H
Some of it was. Even Bach had his bad days now and then.
Dr H
Dr H
Not necessarily. I've known artists to hang some pretty high price tags
on paintings, but nobody bought them.
}Imperious Rex!
Tyrannosaurus Rex!
Dr H
Ringo
> A few years back I was at MoMA and one of the exhibits was a rack of tools,
> regular hammers, chisels, etc. spray painted. Just a rack of tools on the
> wall that someone had attached and spray painted one solid color, including
> the wall behind it. There was also a giant stuffed crayon on the floor. I
> believe I said "Huh".
I'd say "Didn't know the Satelite of Love's bridge was on display.
Where's Tom Servo and Crow?"
Ringo
_____________________________________________
"I never said the math was *wrong.* I
demonstrated at length that the math was all
fairly simple, and not the agonizing brain
twister it was made out to be."
- Robert Lee, Chairman of the American
Coalition to End Racism, in "A Critique of
CUBE: It's As Easy To Get These Things Right
As It Is To Get Them Wrong", NAACP Press, 2000.
_____________________________________________
Boron Elgar
wrote:
Never saw that, I don't think.
Giant stuffed crayon? All by itself & not part of the tools? If so,
that part sounds like it could be a Claes Oldenberg . I can't find it
offhand with a quick search, but his soft sculpture items are very,
very funny and if you don't know his work, look some up. That is the
kind of crazy are that I find extrememly witty & interesting. Look at
these:
http://artnetweb.com/artnetweb/oldenburg/soft.html
Or look at some Ed Kienholtz:
http://www.beatmuseum.org/kienholz/dodge.html
http://www.beatmuseum.org/kienholz/doe.html
I'd post sites from The Emporer's New Clothes School, too, but I don't
like to publicize it.
Boron
Boron Elgar
Dutch Courage) wrote:
Part of a Beethoven sonata (can't find it now) sound just like music
you'd hear for an old time silent movie.
Boron
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>On 08 Mar 2001 16:52:59 GMT, mutigho...@aol.comMMMS (Journey into Dutch
>Courage) wrote:
>
>>I can find some really bad apotheosises, and several pieces by Bach sound like
>>someone noodling around on a harpsicord. I guess that means the Barouqe was a
>>sham.
>
>Aw, get serious. If I bronze a piece of my dog's shit, it's just a bronzed piece
>of dogshit. But if Woyczek Grelman, the famous and tragically-hip artiste,
>bronzes /his/ dog's shit, and puts it on display, some idiot with too much money
>will spend thousands on it, and talk about how it "speaks" to him, and on how
>many levels.
>
Hmm....you can talk to a piece of shit & people will probably think
you're an idiot, alright, but when you tell people the shit is talking
back to you, even if only in some aesthetic way, then you REALLY have
a problem.
Wow...if only shit could speak...whatever would it say?
Boron
Randy Poe
wrote:
>On 08 Mar 2001 16:52:59 GMT, Journey into Dutch Courage wrote:
Being of the unwashed "I know what I like" school I have to say that
most modern art and modern music gives me that "huh" feeling. And
yet... every once in awhile, something just stops me dead and I fall
in love with it. I can't see anything in the stuff with one blue dot,
or a canvas full of green, or one with nothing at all on it. But I do
like one Italian scuptor -- Giacometti? -- very elongated figures, and
I can't get enough of Calder for some reason.
So I guess I like that modern art museums exist, even though 90% of
what's in them makes me go "huh". Because of the other 10%.
- Randy
Journey into Dutch Courage
Date: 3/8/2001 6:27 PM Eastern Standard Time writes:
>On 08 Mar 2001 16:52:59 GMT, mutigho...@aol.comMMMS (Journey into Dutch
>Courage) wrote:
>
>>I can find some really bad apotheosises, and several pieces by Bach sound
>like
>>someone noodling around on a harpsicord. I guess that means the Barouqe was
>a
>>sham.
>
>Aw, get serious.
Be quiet, Geno.
> If I bronze a piece of my dog's shit, it's just a bronzed
>piece
>of dogshit. But if Woyczek Grelman, the famous and tragically-hip artiste,
>bronzes /his/ dog's shit, and puts it on display, some idiot with too much
>money
>will spend thousands on it, and talk about how it "speaks" to him, and on how
>many levels.
And similarly, if you copy out "the metamorphoses" now that Franz Kafka's
already thought of it, no one would really pay much attention to you.
>
>The emperor has no clothes.
Your thinking is simplistic and uninformed.
Imperious Rex!
Big David
> GO-SPAM-YO-...@bigfoot.com
>> mutigho...@aol.comMMMS (Journey into Dutch Courage) wrote:
> >>I can find some really bad apotheosises, and several pieces by Bach
sound
> >like someone noodling around on a harpsicord. I guess that means the
Barouqe was
> >a sham.
> >Aw, get serious.
> Be quiet, Geno.
>
> > If I bronze a piece of my dog's shit, it's just a bronzed
> >piece of dogshit. But if Woyczek Grelman, the famous and tragically-hip
artiste,
> >bronzes /his/ dog's shit, and puts it on display, some idiot with too
much
> >money will spend thousands on it, and talk about how it "speaks" to him,
and on how
> >many levels.
> And similarly, if you copy out "the metamorphoses" now that Franz Kafka's
> already thought of it, no one would really pay much attention to you.
Yeah, except "the metamorphoses" are original. Dog shit is just dog shit,
whether bronzed or with chocolate sprinkles.
> >The emperor has no clothes.
> Your thinking is simplistic and uninformed.
And sometimes bronzed dog shit is just bronzed dog shit. Some people like
to think they are more sophisticated than they really are. Doesn't make
that thing into something other than bronzed dog shit, and it especially
doesn't make it art.
--
Big David
If you want to send me email, you should be smart enough to figure out how.
"There is no right not to be offended by words, actions, or symbols".
Richard E. Sincere, Jr.
Journey into Dutch Courage
>Journey into Dutch Courage <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
>> GO-SPAM-YO-...@bigfoot.com
>
>>> mutigho...@aol.comMMMS (Journey into Dutch Courage) wrote:
>
>> >>I can find some really bad apotheosises, and several pieces by Bach
>sound
>> >like someone noodling around on a harpsicord. I guess that means the
>Barouqe was
>> >a sham.
>
>> >Aw, get serious.
>
>> Be quiet, Geno.
>>
>> > If I bronze a piece of my dog's shit, it's just a bronzed
>> >piece of dogshit. But if Woyczek Grelman, the famous and tragically-hip
>artiste,
>> >bronzes /his/ dog's shit, and puts it on display, some idiot with too
>much
>> >money will spend thousands on it, and talk about how it "speaks" to him,
>and on how
>> >many levels.
>
>> And similarly, if you copy out "the metamorphoses" now that Franz Kafka's
>> already thought of it, no one would really pay much attention to you.
>
>Yeah, except "the metamorphoses" are original.
It are?
> Dog shit is just dog shit,
So?
>whether bronzed or with chocolate sprinkles.
I don't understand your point, Dave.
>> >The emperor has no clothes.
>
>> Your thinking is simplistic and uninformed.
>
>And sometimes bronzed dog shit is just bronzed dog shit.
I suppose. Still, I wonder how good a case you have if you have to make up
examples of it.
> Some people like
>to think they are more sophisticated than they really are.
I think most people like to feel sophisticated. Of course, others like to feel
rustic.
In any case, there's plenty of interesting art that mostly works on a
conceptual level, and otherwise didn't require oceans of draftsmanship. Could
you make a Mondrian? Maybe, but you didn't.
> Doesn't make
>that thing into something other than bronzed dog shit,
Whats wrong with bronzed dog shit?
> and it especially
>doesn't make it art.
You're really not qualified to speak as to what is, and what isn't art, Dave.
Imperious Rex!
Big David
> >And sometimes bronzed dog shit is just bronzed dog shit.
> I suppose. Still, I wonder how good a case you have if you have to make
up
> examples of it.
I'm just using yours.
> > Some people like to think they are more sophisticated than they really
are.
> I think most people like to feel sophisticated. Of course, others like to
feel
> rustic.
Then there are the rubes who think they are sophisticated.
> In any case, there's plenty of interesting art that mostly works on a
> conceptual level, and otherwise didn't require oceans of draftsmanship.
Could
> you make a Mondrian? Maybe, but you didn't.
I'm thinking of asking for an NEA grant. I'm going to put one of my writing
samples on perfectly white paper and put it on black poster board and post
it as a series.
> > Doesn't make that thing into something other than bronzed dog shit,
> Whats wrong with bronzed dog shit?
Well, nothing really, but to pretensiously pretend that its art that works
on some conceptual level, well, thats bullshit, or, dogshit, IMHO.
> > and it especially doesn't make it art.
> You're really not qualified to speak as to what is, and what isn't art,
Dave.
Neither are you, junior. I can generally recognize art and took the
obligatory art in the dark course and have been going to museums and reading
about art since I was old enough to remember. I am familiar with modern art
and its forms and permutations. Am I an art historian or intimately
familiar with the art world? No. But I can recognize it. Dog shit ain't
it, bronzed or no. Feel free to have your own opinion, no matter how wrong.
Stan
wrote:
>
>Wow...if only shit could speak...whatever would it say?
>
>Boron
"Oh, crap"
--
Stan in NJ (No, not THAT Stan)
Serenity now...Insanity later
N Jill Marsh
Randy Poe <ran...@visionplace.com> wrote in message
news:3aa82ad5....@news.flashcom.net...
>
> Being of the unwashed "I know what I like" school I have to say that
> most modern art and modern music gives me that "huh" feeling. And
> yet... every once in awhile, something just stops me dead and I fall
> in love with it. I can't see anything in the stuff with one blue dot,
> or a canvas full of green, or one with nothing at all on it. But I do
> like one Italian scuptor -- Giacometti? -- very elongated figures, and
> I can't get enough of Calder for some reason.
>
> So I guess I like that modern art museums exist, even though 90% of
> what's in them makes me go "huh". Because of the other 10%.
>
I think that's a good description of what modern art (whatever the hell that
means) can or can not do for a person. To me, the art piece is just a start
for my own free association, and if it puts me somewhere powerful (in a
negative or a positive way), then it's good art to me.
nj"my ratio is different"m
--
"...but where other powers of entertainment are wanting, the true
philosopher will derive benefit from such as are given."
N Jill Marsh
Boron Elgar <kalk...@bwu.edu> wrote in message
news:tu8gat01dmc3oua3s...@4ax.com...
>
> Wow...if only shit could speak...whatever would it say?
>
"I went towards the light, so this must be heaven."
njm
--
"To this discovery succeeded some others equally mortifying."
Boron Elgar
<njm...@bigfoot.com.TOENAILS> wrote:
>
>Boron Elgar <kalk...@bwu.edu> wrote in message
>news:tu8gat01dmc3oua3s...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Wow...if only shit could speak...whatever would it say?
>>
>
>"I went towards the light, so this must be heaven."
>
Thank you, Madame. Not only did I have to clean the coffee spill, but
now I have to go change my shirt (which I just typed as "shit," before
I corrected it) before I go to work.
Boron
Gary S. Callison
: "N Jill Marsh" <njm...@bigfoot.com.TOENAILS> wrote:
: >Boron Elgar <kalk...@bwu.edu> wrote:
: >> Wow...if only shit could speak...whatever would it say?
: >"I went towards the light, so this must be heaven."
: Thank you, Madame. Not only did I have to clean the coffee spill, but
: now I have to go change my shirt (which I just typed as "shit," before
: I corrected it) before I go to work.
After the last couple months, I've decided that I need to change most of
my shit as well. Throwing out most of the shit and replacing only what I
need. An advantage of this is that I get to simplify, as well as getting
rid of all of this stupid shit I have now.
If anybody wants any of my shit, speak up. I'm giving shit away. Already
gave away a little color TV and a guitar. "Selling out to the bare walls!
Everything must go!"
--
Huey
Journey into Dutch Courage
>Journey into Dutch Courage <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
>
>> >And sometimes bronzed dog shit is just bronzed dog shit.
>
>> I suppose. Still, I wonder how good a case you have if you have to make
>up
>> examples of it.
>
>I'm just using yours.
No, I think that was Geno. If, in order to support your premise, you rely on
making up am extreme, ridiculous example, is that mostly reductio ad absurdum,
or a straw man?
It's rather like me saying "Living in a well regulated society is stupid! What
if there was a law requiring you to wear clean underpants everyday? And, you
had to wear them on the outside, so the authorities could check."
>
>> > Some people like to think they are more sophisticated than they really
>are.
>
>> I think most people like to feel sophisticated. Of course, others like to
>feel
>> rustic.
>
>Then there are the rubes who think they are sophisticated.
Well, that's plenty exciting.
>
>> In any case, there's plenty of interesting art that mostly works on a
>> conceptual level, and otherwise didn't require oceans of draftsmanship.
>Could
>> you make a Mondrian? Maybe, but you didn't.
>
>I'm thinking of asking for an NEA grant.
Huh. Bet you don't get one.
> I'm going to put one of my writing
>samples on perfectly white paper and put it on black poster board and post
>it as a series.
Well, you'll need a good conceit to make that work.
>
>> > Doesn't make that thing into something other than bronzed dog shit,
>
>> Whats wrong with bronzed dog shit?
>
>Well, nothing really,
Well, there you are.
> but to pretensiously pretend that its art that works
>on some conceptual level, well, thats bullshit, or, dogshit, IMHO.
Well, whatever. Your opinion as to what constitutes important art is relatively
unvaluable. I can just see the Dave Bokeno art review.
"Ey, I like this "Three Graces" painting. You got one grace looking one way,
the other grace looking the other way, and this one in the middle saying "Ey,
whadda you want from me?"
>
>> > and it especially doesn't make it art.
>
>> You're really not qualified to speak as to what is, and what isn't art,
>Dave.
>
>Neither are you, junior.
Well, I think more so than you, toughie. Admittedly, I don't write for any
respected journals or anything, but I did take a lot of historical and
technical art classes in school, I've worked as a professional artist a little,
and certainly read around a bit. So, I can tell you that sometimes erasing
someone else's art can be art. Anyway, it will make you rich and famous, and
life ain't nothing but bitches and money.
> I can generally recognize art and took the
>obligatory art in the dark course and have been going to museums and reading
>about art since I was old enough to remember.
So you have a little less school than I do, and certainly not the technical
background.
> I am familiar with modern art
>and its forms and permutations. Am I an art historian or intimately
>familiar with the art world? No. But I can recognize it. Dog shit ain't
>it, bronzed or no.
Why not? What if the artist had an installation of some sort that worked off,
hmmm...you know, something about modern urban commercial culture. he hurried
you through the museum with signs that say, um..."this way to the ..." It has
to be something good, some sort of useful advertising slogan, or perhaps play
off that in a hip aware way, hmmm..."This way to the life alteringly useful
object!" I dunno, that's not very good. But getting this part "just so" would
involve a certain scarcity by comparison of cleverness, which typically
involves the creation of value. Oh, that's a good phrase: "This way to the
creation of value." Six more of those and you're on to something. Anyway, so
you hurry through the museum and you get to the end of the exhibit, and maybe
step through a cloth or some other barrier, perhaps a series of barriers, so
that you're not near "the object, the object is nowhere to be seen, and then
you're right in front of the object. Kind of like driving into Pittsburgh from
the west. Anyway, and the object is Gilded Dog Shit! I assume you'd have it lit
up like some kind of Really Important Thing, maybe a fanfare as you stepped
into the room, whatever. Oh, how fun. He could have women walking around the
museum, at least on the opening, passing out questionaires regarding The
Ubitquitous Object of Spontaneous Utility, perhaps a couple of Rockettes in
recherche outfits touting the benefits of...oh, I don't have another one. And
you get there, you know, and it's GILDED DOG SHIT. Holtz's "The Mystic" plays.
You have to climb a few steps to ascend into the chamber of the new and
improved, why not?
Or, um, the artist could have a ceremony in which he awards Little Loving Cups
made of Bronzed Dog Shit to, you know, whatever. Homophobia, Racism, George
Bush, George Bush, and the Whole Military/Big Oil Complex*, um...and then the
exhibit is one of these deals sitting next to a little, like a commodore 64
monitor playing a continuous loop of, you know, a little montage to express
that idea, sure why not?
You'd probably yuck it up over either thing if you saw them executed correctly
in a, say, terry gilliam movie, perhaps remark how clever he was. Admittedly,
the first one would only work work until the majority of the public found out
about it.
Yeah, I can certainly imagine Bronzed Dog Shit or even weirder things being
part of an exhibit if you let Terry Gilliam or maybe Al Jaffe make over several
rooms at a gallery or museum. At least a few people would probably pay 25 or so
dollars to walk around inside on wet sunday afternoons, and its twice as sweet
knowing some of it is coming out of your pocket! Whoo hoo. Work some overtime,
Dave, me and the other deadbeats got us a mean hankerin' for some Picasso.
So, hmm. Big show, funny weird objects, sure, why not? Someone would probably
buy the artifacts of the exhibit. Does that mean that someone would be sitting
around with a, say, 10,000 dollar object they could probably assemble for a
hundred or so, that most people wouldn't want in the first place? Eh...maybe,
but what about a Willie Mays baseball card? pretty expensive piece of
pasteboard that all you can do is look at.
> Feel free to have your own opinion, no matter how wrong.
Hey, tell me more about your idea of gluing your letters to posterboard, and
why you're not a famous artist again?
Dutch "madam, the ribbon is free" Courage
*I trust Big Boy Dave here has noticed the recent turn around at Time regarding
the party in power. If not, he should pick up the new one about the SAT's.
Imperious Rex!
Journey into Dutch Courage
Date: 3/8/2001 11:23 PM Eastern Standard Time writes:
>But don't make me finance /your/ dogshit with /my/ tax contributions.
I doubt you pay nearly as much tax as the people who actually attend, and
largely finance privately, these types of exhibits.
Dutch "if you're otherwise not mature enough to live in a democracy, try
pretending all of your tax reveues go to support a single thing you approve of"
Courage
Imperious Rex!
Bill Diamond
mutigho...@aol.comMMMS (Journey into Dutch Courage) z'e:
A sham? Well, how do I sew it around a pillow? I'd like a few
baroques throws for the parlour.
Bill
Barbara
>
Barbara -
"I've got something inside me
Not what my life's about
Cause I've been letting my outside tide me
Over 'til my time runs out."
Taxi
Harry Chapin
Anny Middon
> most modern art and modern music gives me that "huh" feeling. And
> yet... every once in awhile, something just stops me dead and I fall
> in love with it. I can't see anything in the stuff with one blue dot,
> or a canvas full of green, or one with nothing at all on it. But I do
> like one Italian scuptor -- Giacometti? -- very elongated figures, and
> I can't get enough of Calder for some reason.
>
> So I guess I like that modern art museums exist, even though 90% of
> what's in them makes me go "huh". Because of the other 10%.
Reminds me of Sturgeon's Rule. Theodore Sturgeon was a science fiction
writer who once said, "Ninety percent of science fiction is crap. But then
ninety percent of everything is crap."
Anny
Rich Clancey
+ I truly believe there is an Emporer's New Clothes school of art, tho.
+ I saw a piece from it at the Whitney 2 weeks ago, Twenty or 30 plastic
+ soda bottles, with labels removed & partially filled with water, were
+ hanging on a rope, in a clothesline fashion.
+ It's bullshit, Dutch, and believe me, I really love crazy art.
It's not even clever original bullshit in this case. The old
empty soda bottle trick is a favorite one among 3D design teachers in
Aht Schools such as the one I work at. The hallways of the 3D
department are always filled with constructions made out of
"repeating forms", always including lots of those cheap and plentiful
empty soda bottles, occassionally partially filled with water, with
the labels removed.
The first emperor who walked around with no clothes on was a
colossal bonehead, but all the subsequent emperors who do the same
thing are merely pathetic.
By the way, if you really like the Ad Reinhardts, you can get
a very reasonable fake one made by simply posting an ad at any art
school or university art department. Anybody with oil paint supplies
can fake one up for you indistinguishable from "the real thing", plus
everybody always has a lot of old black paint to get rid of since you
don't use much.
--
rich clancey r...@world.std.com rcla...@massart.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I often think there should exist a special typographical sign
for a smile -- some sort of concave mark, a supine round bracket.
~ Vladimir Nabokov, April 1969
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>Boron Elgar (Kalk...@bwu.edu) wrote:
>
>
>+ I truly believe there is an Emporer's New Clothes school of art, tho.
>+ I saw a piece from it at the Whitney 2 weeks ago, Twenty or 30 plastic
>+ soda bottles, with labels removed & partially filled with water, were
>+ hanging on a rope, in a clothesline fashion.
>
>+ It's bullshit, Dutch, and believe me, I really love crazy art.
>
> It's not even clever original bullshit in this case. The old
>empty soda bottle trick is a favorite one among 3D design teachers in
>Aht Schools such as the one I work at. The hallways of the 3D
>department are always filled with constructions made out of
>"repeating forms", always including lots of those cheap and plentiful
>empty soda bottles, occassionally partially filled with water, with
>the labels removed.
Oh my gawd....not only of no aesthetic value, but derivative, too!
Boron
Lesmond
>
>Never saw that, I don't think.
>
>Giant stuffed crayon? All by itself & not part of the tools?
The crayon was separate from the other exhibit...and it had a big zipper
running down the side.
>If so,
>that part sounds like it could be a Claes Oldenberg . I can't find it
>offhand with a quick search, but his soft sculpture items are very,
>very funny and if you don't know his work, look some up. That is the
>kind of crazy are that I find extrememly witty & interesting. Look at
>these:
>
>http://artnetweb.com/artnetweb/oldenburg/soft.html
>
>Or look at some Ed Kienholtz:
>
>http://www.beatmuseum.org/kienholz/dodge.html
>
>http://www.beatmuseum.org/kienholz/doe.html
>
I'll take a look.
>
>I'd post sites from The Emporer's New Clothes School, too, but I don't
>like to publicize it.
>
I understand...:)
Elissa Caffery
>And sometimes bronzed dog shit is just bronzed dog shit. Some people like
>to think they are more sophisticated than they really are. Doesn't make
>that thing into something other than bronzed dog shit, and it especially
>doesn't make it art.
>--
>Big David
I think most things are art if they're meant to be. That would probably piss
you off less if you didn't think of art as something somebody makes you look at
in school, or whatever. Think of it more as a field trip to the museum.
Remember, you're getting out of class!
from Elissa |O
"You won't make yourself a bit realer by crying"
GrapeApe
>or a canvas full of green, or one with nothing at all on it.
Some of that minimalist stuff has to be seen in person to be appreciated. It is
about size and space, and usually works best surrounded by more of the same.
GrapeApe
>it, bronzed or no. Feel free to have your own opinion, no matter how wrong.
How do your really know that it actually is, indeed, dog shit? Perhaps it is
solid bronze.
GrapeApe
>hallways of large companies. I have to assume that most of it is the
>result of hiring a decorating company to come in and "put up some art."
Well actually, in the case of the really expensive and famous stuff, it may be
that corporations are some of the few that can afford them, and it gets them
tax credit as far as brownie points, and can be a good investment.
GrapeApe
>>I did too, that's why I asked the group. I think it's weird that you can't
>>find art prices online.
>>
>>What's up with that?
>
>There are no price lists. per se.
I think you might find out some info from sothebys or christies. Probably you
could find a list somewhere of every piece someone has paid a million or more
for.
Greg Goss
>He's not prolific, because he spends many months, even years, on each work.
>Yeah, that's the ticket. That must be why his stuff is so pricey.
You realize that if we'c pay artists less, they'd have to produce
more. :)
Anny Middon
news:20010309231632...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
>
> I think you might find out some info from sothebys or christies. Probably
you
> could find a list somewhere of every piece someone has paid a million or
more
> for.
A blue Reinhardt sold at Sotheby's for $500k last November. See my earlier
post for the URL.
Anny
Dr H
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 GO-SPAM-YO-...@bigfoot.com wrote:
}Aw, get serious. If I bronze a piece of my dog's shit, it's just a bronzed piece
}of dogshit. But if Woyczek Grelman, the famous and tragically-hip artiste,
}bronzes /his/ dog's shit, and puts it on display, some idiot with too much money
}will spend thousands on it, and talk about how it "speaks" to him, and on how
}many levels.
}
}The emperor has no clothes.
Maybe so, but the royal tailor still got paid. ;-)
Dr H
Dr H
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 GO-SPAM-YO-...@bigfoot.com wrote:
}But don't make me finance /your/ dogshit with /my/ tax contributions.
Why not? It's not easy making a living as an artist; you have to take
your funding where you can get it.
Dr H
Richard
and speak to what is/is not art. Does art need color? Does art need form?
His paintings are extremely perfect in their painstaking detail. The color
may look "black" from across the room, but up close the subtle variations
make me stare. I think I just enjoy the mind behind the art...someone who
could actually ask the question, "Is it art if I stop using color in my oil
paintings? Is it art if I stop using shapes as well?"
I never thought to ask that question.
In my view, "Found Objects" art is the emporer's new clothes, 'cause it
doesn't take any effort. However, Reinhardt's paintings took tremendous
effort to achieve the unblemished monochomatic look.
I do think that the urinal as art made sense way back when (because again,
it asked the question, "What is art?") but to duplicate the effort is not
art.
So, what's an Ad Reinhardt painting worth? Anyone? Anyone?
Richard
I was hoping that I could buy one for less than that $500k the blue one sold
for.
>"Anny Middon" <An...@enteractNOSPAM.com> wrote > A blue Reinhardt sold at
Journey into Dutch Courage
Date: 3/12/2001 8:22 PM Eastern Standard Time writes:
>>On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 GO-SPAM-YO-...@bigfoot.com wrote:
>>
>>}But don't make me finance /your/ dogshit with /my/ tax contributions.
>>
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:32:54 -0800, Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Why not? It's not easy making a living as an artist; you have to take
>> your funding where you can get it.
>
>
>It's not easy making a living as a <fill in blank>, either, but they don't go
>on
>the dole for federal funding.
Disc Jockey? Whoops...
I think a rent seeker like you ought to be happy to spread the favor from
Uncle Sugar around, you dig?
Probably not.
Imperious Rex!
Lesmond
> Why not? It's not easy making a living as an artist; you have to take
> your funding where you can get it.
>
>
Whatever happened to the grand tradition of the starving artist?
Boron Elgar
wrote:
If they are classy about their starvation, they can give up art & be
in Allie McBeal.
Boron
Shawn Wilson
"Richard" <ser...@electrogram.com> wrote in message
news:OCdr6.9220$R_6.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I saw that one. But the black ones are the only paintings that interest
me.
> I was hoping that I could buy one for less than that $500k the blue one
sold
> for.
If you like that kind of painting why not do one yourself, instead of
shelling out the bucks to buy it? All you need is some black paint, a
little bit of white paint, a canvas, some masking tape, and a roller.
Journey into Dutch Courage
>"Richard" <ser...@electrogram.com> wrote in message
>news:OCdr6.9220$R_6.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>> I saw that one. But the black ones are the only paintings that interest
>me.
>> I was hoping that I could buy one for less than that $500k the blue one
>sold
>> for.
>
>
>If you like that kind of painting why not do one yourself, instead of
>shelling out the bucks to buy it?
Well, a real one may appreciate in value.
> All you need is some black paint, a
>little bit of white paint, a canvas, some masking tape, and a roller.
There are so many things you're just clueless about, aren't there?
Imperious Rex!
Dr H
You can still starve on a government grant. You just spend all the
money on materials.
Dr H
Dr H
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 GO-SPAM-YO-...@bigfoot.com wrote:
}>On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 GO-SPAM-YO-...@bigfoot.com wrote:
}>
}>}But don't make me finance /your/ dogshit with /my/ tax contributions.
}>
}On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:32:54 -0800, Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
}
}>
}> Why not? It's not easy making a living as an artist; you have to take
}> your funding where you can get it.
}
}
}It's not easy making a living as a <fill in blank>, either, but they don't
}go on the dole for federal funding.
Who doesn't?
Dr H
Shawn Wilson
"Journey into Dutch Courage" <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
news:20010313165515...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
> >If you like that kind of painting why not do one yourself, instead of
> >shelling out the bucks to buy it?
>
> Well, a real one may appreciate in value.
Ever the philistine, aren't you George?
> > All you need is some black paint, a
> >little bit of white paint, a canvas, some masking tape, and a roller.
>
> There are so many things you're just clueless about, aren't there?
You don't have to have your work hanging in a museum to make a decent
painting of geometic shapes in different tints of black.
Journey into Dutch Courage
>"Journey into Dutch Courage" <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
>news:20010313165515...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
>
>> >If you like that kind of painting why not do one yourself, instead of
>> >shelling out the bucks to buy it?
>>
>> Well, a real one may appreciate in value.
>
>
>Ever the philistine, aren't you George?
Well, if it costs more it must be worth more. Who are you to say the desire
for one object over a more or less identical object isn't rational? Choices are
choices, they are neither good, nor bad.
>> > All you need is some black paint, a
>> >little bit of white paint, a canvas, some masking tape, and a roller.
>>
>> There are so many things you're just clueless about, aren't there?
>
>
>You don't have to have your work hanging in a museum to make a decent
>painting of geometic shapes in different tints of black.
I think the technical ability in the first place is a fair scarcity. it's
harder than you think to mask an area off so that you paint it with the kind of
sharp edge you'd need for this to work. There's also a certain historical, or
artifact, value, that makes THAT particular picture worth more than an
otherwise identical object. Thus, Fonzie's leather jacket, or Pete Best's, is
worth more than yours. It's not really any stranger or less rational than Papa
John's can charge 2 or three dollars over what M&P pizza stores charge for
arguably better pizza, which I know I've seen you defend as the natural man's
inalienable right to get took and smile while it happens. Yes, you can weld a
bicycle seat to a set of handlebars, but I don't think anyone would want it.
They'd want the one Picasso made.
Imperious Rex!
Shawn Wilson
"Journey into Dutch Courage" <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
> >> >If you like that kind of painting why not do one yourself, instead of
> >> >shelling out the bucks to buy it?
> >>
> >> Well, a real one may appreciate in value.
> >
> >
> >Ever the philistine, aren't you George?
>
> Well, if it costs more it must be worth more.
But that doesn't mean it's a better piece of art.
> >> > All you need is some black paint, a
> >> >little bit of white paint, a canvas, some masking tape, and a roller.
> >>
> >> There are so many things you're just clueless about, aren't there?
> >
> >
> >You don't have to have your work hanging in a museum to make a decent
> >painting of geometic shapes in different tints of black.
>
> I think the technical ability in the first place is a fair scarcity. it's
> harder than you think to mask an area off so that you paint it with the
kind of
> sharp edge you'd need for this to work.
Scotch tape, a metal ruler, and a razor will get you ten times the precision
you need. While you obviously haven't, I HAVE seen one of these paintings.
There's also a certain historical, or
> artifact, value, that makes THAT particular picture worth more than an
> otherwise identical object.
But that doesn't make it a better piece of art, philistine.
Asterbark
>But that doesn't make it a better piece of art, philistine.
>
No such thing, within your context of the meaning of "better" and "art."
Journey into Dutch Courage
>"Journey into Dutch Courage" <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
>news:20010313203904...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
>
>> >> >If you like that kind of painting why not do one yourself, instead of
>> >> >shelling out the bucks to buy it?
>> >>
>> >> Well, a real one may appreciate in value.
>> >
>> >
>> >Ever the philistine, aren't you George?
>>
>> Well, if it costs more it must be worth more.
>
>
>But that doesn't mean it's a better piece of art.
Didn't you once tell me Isaac Asimov was so a great writer because a lot of
people bought his books? Careful, you have to give up a lot if you're going to
admit to there being good art and bad art.
>
>
>
>> >> > All you need is some black paint, a
>> >> >little bit of white paint, a canvas, some masking tape, and a roller.
>> >>
>> >> There are so many things you're just clueless about, aren't there?
>> >
>> >
>> >You don't have to have your work hanging in a museum to make a decent
>> >painting of geometic shapes in different tints of black.
>>
>> I think the technical ability in the first place is a fair scarcity. it's
>> harder than you think to mask an area off so that you paint it with the
>kind of
>> sharp edge you'd need for this to work.
>
>
>Scotch tape, a metal ruler, and a razor will get you ten times the precision
>you need.
This is just so not true. Or, anyway, you can do it more easily with a
t-square, and you wont get sharp lines from masking tape without mask medium.
Mixing the paint might be a little tricky, too.
> While you obviously haven't, I HAVE seen one of these paintings.
Well, make one up, and ship it to me, and if I like yours, I'll buy it.
Since it's probably your first painting, you have no reputation, and it's a
very derivative work, I think, oh...50 dollars. That sound about fair? say
about 5'x7'?
> There's also a certain historical, or
>> artifact, value, that makes THAT particular picture worth more than an
>> otherwise identical object.
>
>
>
>But that doesn't make it a better piece of art,
Is "Madonna of the Rocks" a better piece of art than, oh, whats a nice
pre-raphaelite work? Oh, okay, "The Stone Breakers"?
> philistine.
Alans the untrimmed one.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Imperious Rex!
Dr H
On 14 Mar 2001, Journey into Dutch Courage wrote:
}"Shawn Wilson" shawn....@worldnet.att.net
}Date: 3/13/2001 6:55 PM Eastern Standard Time writes:
}
}>"Journey into Dutch Courage" <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
}>news:20010313165515...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
}>
}>> >If you like that kind of painting why not do one yourself, instead of
}>> >shelling out the bucks to buy it?
}>>
}>> Well, a real one may appreciate in value.
}>
}>
}>Ever the philistine, aren't you George?
}
} Well, if it costs more it must be worth more.
Only if somebody is actually willing to pay the price.
I see plenty of outrageously priced pieces at art shows than don't
get bought.
Dr H
Shawn Wilson
"Journey into Dutch Courage" <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
> >> Well, if it costs more it must be worth more.
> >
> >
> >But that doesn't mean it's a better piece of art.
>
> Didn't you once tell me Isaac Asimov was so a great writer because a lot
of
> people bought his books?
People don't buy his books as speclative investments, they buy them for
their value as art.
> >Scotch tape, a metal ruler, and a razor will get you ten times the
precision
> >you need.
>
> This is just so not true. Or, anyway, you can do it more easily with a
> t-square, and you wont get sharp lines from masking tape without mask
medium.
You've never done precision painting, have you? You certainly didn't
recognize the tools.
At any rate, those black paintings aren't high precision to begin with.
> > While you obviously haven't, I HAVE seen one of these paintings.
>
> Well, make one up, and ship it to me, and if I like yours, I'll buy it.
Pay first, I'm not going to the effort on spec.
> > There's also a certain historical, or
> >> artifact, value, that makes THAT particular picture worth more than an
> >> otherwise identical object.
> >
> >
> >
> >But that doesn't make it a better piece of art,
>
> Is "Madonna of the Rocks" a better piece of art than, oh, whats a nice
> pre-raphaelite work? Oh, okay, "The Stone Breakers"?
Is a mass produced poster of a famous painting more artistic than Bogey's
trenchcoat from Casablanca?
Journey into Dutch Courage
>"Journey into Dutch Courage" <mutigho...@aol.comMMMS> wrote in message
>news:20010313215900...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
>
>> >> Well, if it costs more it must be worth more.
>> >
>> >
>> >But that doesn't mean it's a better piece of art.
>>
>> Didn't you once tell me Isaac Asimov was so a great writer because a lot
>of
>> people bought his books?
>
>
>People don't buy his books as speclative investments,
Aren't there collecters of SF first editions? I think there are.
they buy them for
>their value as art.
Presumably Reinhardt's investment value is derived from his art value. If ever
any serious discrepency arises between those two things, then the prices should
correct themselves in short order.
>> >Scotch tape, a metal ruler, and a razor will get you ten times the
>precision
>> >you need.
>>
>> This is just so not true. Or, anyway, you can do it more easily with a
>> t-square, and you wont get sharp lines from masking tape without mask
>medium.
>
>
>You've never done precision painting, have you?
No, when have I ever done any painting?
> You certainly didn't
>recognize the tools.
Oh, don't you worry about that, Shawn. I recognize a tool when I see one.
>At any rate, those black paintings aren't high precision to begin with.
I always love it when you weigh in with your technical expertise on art
matters.
>
>
>
>
>> > While you obviously haven't, I HAVE seen one of these paintings.
>>
>> Well, make one up, and ship it to me, and if I like yours, I'll buy it.
>
>
>Pay first, I'm not going to the effort on spec.
Mmm, well, except it remains to be proven that you can finish a large
painting, and it seems I'd be buying a pig in a poke, so to speak.
>
>
>
>
>> > There's also a certain historical, or
>> >> artifact, value, that makes THAT particular picture worth more than an
>> >> otherwise identical object.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >But that doesn't make it a better piece of art,
>>
>> Is "Madonna of the Rocks" a better piece of art than, oh, whats a nice
>> pre-raphaelite work? Oh, okay, "The Stone Breakers"?
>
>
>Is a mass produced poster of a famous painting more artistic than Bogey's
>trenchcoat from Casablanca?
Probably not, no, since at a minimum it's a Burberry.
Imperious Rex!