That 8-track player
kay w
I sold it (and the tapes) on ebay. Someone who recognized true quality goods
appreciated it, and is paying $17.50 for it (plus $3 insurance plus $12.95
S&H).
Bet you're sorry now......
--
kay w
Address munged. AOL isn't necessarily comatose, evidence to the contrary not
withstanding.
Helge Moulding
> Someone who recognized true quality goods
> appreciated it, and is paying $17.50 for it (plus $3
> insurance plus $12.95 S&H). Bet you're sorry now......
Didn't I just see an 8-track player - no tapes - for sale at
Moriarty Antiques for $80?
--
Helge Moulding
mailto:hmou...@excite.com Just another guy
http://hmoulding.cjb.net/ with a weird name
kay w
Me(kay):
>> Someone who recognized true quality goods
>> appreciated it, and is paying $17.50 for it (plus $3
>> insurance plus $12.95 S&H). Bet you're sorry now......
Helge:
>Didn't I just see an 8-track player - no tapes - for sale at
>Moriarty Antiques for $80?
lol, could be...the main difference is that that one is for sale, and mine is
*sold.* I'll clear $20 on it, which is a dinner or a couple of lunches, when I
was gonna kick it to the curb or send it to someone for free, just to get rid
of the damn thing.
Ebay can be great, though; I sold a saxaphone for a friend (took lots of
pictures, etc) and it went, sight unseen, for almost 5 grand.
David J. Martin
>
> kay w wrote,
> > Someone who recognized true quality goods
> > appreciated it, and is paying $17.50 for it (plus $3
> > insurance plus $12.95 S&H). Bet you're sorry now......
>
> Didn't I just see an 8-track player - no tapes - for sale at
> Moriarty Antiques for $80?
Ah, but did you see anyone buy it?
David
Helge Moulding
> Helge Moulding wrote:
> > Didn't I just see an 8-track player - no tapes - for sale at
> > Moriarty Antiques for $80?
> Ah, but did you see anyone buy it?
Heavens, no. For that matter, they had a business card holder
displayed as a cigarette case. And I think the card holder wasn't
even antique, but a modern reproduction.
I did find some nice sheet music, real cheap. Though nothing
antique.
Boron Elgar
>Previously:
>
>Me(kay):
>>> Someone who recognized true quality goods
>>> appreciated it, and is paying $17.50 for it (plus $3
>>> insurance plus $12.95 S&H). Bet you're sorry now......
>
>Helge:
>>Didn't I just see an 8-track player - no tapes - for sale at
>>Moriarty Antiques for $80?
>
>lol, could be...the main difference is that that one is for sale, and mine is
>*sold.* I'll clear $20 on it, which is a dinner or a couple of lunches, when I
>was gonna kick it to the curb or send it to someone for free, just to get rid
>of the damn thing.
>
>Ebay can be great, though; I sold a saxaphone for a friend (took lots of
>pictures, etc) and it went, sight unseen, for almost 5 grand.
I have a closet load of old instruments, including a sax...maybe I
should start selling & looking at some vacation brochures...
What kind of sax was this, Kay?
Boron
kay w
Me(kay):
>>Ebay can be great, though; I sold a saxaphone for a friend (took lots of
>>pictures, etc) and it went, sight unseen, for almost 5 grand.
Boron:
>I have a closet load of old instruments, including a sax...maybe I
>should start selling & looking at some vacation brochures...
>What kind of sax was this, Kay?
I don't know. It wasn't new, by any means, and had intricate scrollwork on a
lot of it (my little digital camera got amazingly good pictures of the
details.)
The serial numbers on it indicated that it was one from this company that
either was or wasn't made in France (whichever made it more valuable, I don't
remember.) It must have been a well-known maker, since even I was able to find
websites that discussed the serial numbers and what they indicated.
Could this possibly be more vague? Sorry. And of course, it was just in the
last week or so that I erased a bunch of extra crap from the computer,
including those sax pictures.
ra...@westnet.poe.com
>>I have a closet load of old instruments, including a sax...maybe I
>>should start selling & looking at some vacation brochures...
>>What kind of sax was this, Kay?
What kind of sax Boron? DW has been searching for a particular kind of
sax for ages (I don't recall what kind). Perhpas we can work out a
deal...
John
--
Remove the dead poet to e-mail, tho CC'd posts are unwelcome.
Ask me about joining the NRA.
Dr H
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Boron Elgar wrote:
}I have a closet load of old instruments, including a sax...maybe I
}should start selling & looking at some vacation brochures...
Really? So um, whatcha got?
Dr H
Dr H
On 20 Mar 2002, kay w wrote:
}I *tried* to get you guys to take it.
}
}I sold it (and the tapes) on ebay. Someone who recognized true quality goods
}appreciated it, and is paying $17.50 for it (plus $3 insurance plus $12.95
}S&H).
}
}Bet you're sorry now......
But I already own three 8-track players *and* an 8-track recorder. Now
if I had seen your offer before Xmas, I would have bought it for my
brother, the audiophile. ;->
Dr H
Boron Elgar
>> Boron:
>>>I have a closet load of old instruments, including a sax...maybe I
>>>should start selling & looking at some vacation brochures...
>>>What kind of sax was this, Kay?
>
>What kind of sax Boron? DW has been searching for a particular kind of
>sax for ages (I don't recall what kind). Perhpas we can work out a
>deal...
>
I will get it dug out over the weekend & let you know. I don't think
it 's a $5000 one, John....far from it.
I have two others, also...one is a digital Casio & the other is
bamboo, I believe....
Boron
Boron Elgar
Accordion
Two steel string guitars
Two dumbeks
Plucked dulcimer
Hammered dulcimer
Two clarinets
Lever harp
Piano
Several keyboards
Bells
Trumpet
Flute
Zither
3 saxaphones
assorted recorders, whistles, castanets, jingley things, percussion
accoutrements, practice pads, etc.....there is probably more.
The above all live here...we usually have a few school instruments,
too...I think there is a euphonium upstairs.
Boron
kay w
>I have two others, also...one is a digital Casio & the other is
>bamboo, I believe....
Do any of them play "Glowworm?"
(glimmer, glimmer)
Boron Elgar
>Previously, Boron said, in part:
>
>>I have two others, also...one is a digital Casio & the other is
>>bamboo, I believe....
>
>Do any of them play "Glowworm?"
>(glimmer, glimmer)
Not unless someone hooked the Casio up to the computer.
I did teach myself "Lady of Spain" for the accordion, though.... well,
a few bars of it, anyway. That's all you need to scare the shit out of
everyone when it's taken out of its case.
Boron
John Hatpin
>Accordion
>Two steel string guitars
>Two dumbeks
>Plucked dulcimer
>Hammered dulcimer
>Two clarinets
>Lever harp
>Piano
>Several keyboards
>Bells
>Trumpet
>Flute
>Zither
>3 saxaphones
>assorted recorders, whistles, castanets, jingley things, percussion
>accoutrements, practice pads, etc...
... and the skeletons of various Philip Glass Ensemble players in the
basement, huh?
--
John Hatpin
"I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the
Universe and all that surrounds it." -- Peter Cook
Boron Elgar
<ag...@brooREMOVEMEkview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>>Accordion
>>Two steel string guitars
>>Two dumbeks
>>Plucked dulcimer
>>Hammered dulcimer
>>Two clarinets
>>Lever harp
>>Piano
>>Several keyboards
>>Bells
>>Trumpet
>>Flute
>>Zither
>>3 saxaphones
>>assorted recorders, whistles, castanets, jingley things, percussion
>>accoutrements, practice pads, etc...
>
>... and the skeletons of various Philip Glass Ensemble players in the
>basement, huh?
Dem bones, dem bones....
Boron
kay w
>Now if I had seen your offer before Xmas, I would have bought it for my
> brother, the audiophile.
Does he have any use for a Marantz turntable, probably 10 years old, original
box and packing, and even that little 45 disk thingie (I think it's still in
there)?
Bob E.
>
> Previously, H said:
>
> >Now if I had seen your offer before Xmas, I would have bought it for my
> > brother, the audiophile.
>
> Does he have any use for a Marantz turntable, probably 10 years old, original
> box and packing, and even that little 45 disk thingie (I think it's still in
> there)?
Is it a model 6320? --Bob
================================================================================
Bob Ellingson bo...@halted.com
Halted Specialties Co., Inc. http://www.halted.com
3500 Ryder St. (408) 732-1573
Santa Clara, Calif. 95051 USA (408) 732-6428 (FAX)
kay w
>Is it a model 6320? --Bob
The only thing I see that looks like a model number is TT 120.
I told my mother I was getting rid of some of this junk out of this house, and
she asked me if I were dying.
Gary S. Callison
: Accordion
: Two steel string guitars
: Two dumbeks
: Plucked dulcimer
: Hammered dulcimer
: Two clarinets
: Lever harp
: Piano
: Several keyboards
: Bells
: Trumpet
: Flute
: Zither
: 3 saxaphones
: assorted recorders, whistles, castanets, jingley things, percussion
: accoutrements, practice pads, etc.....there is probably more.
: The above all live here...we usually have a few school instruments,
: too...I think there is a euphonium upstairs.
If you need that crap maintained and stored, I'm still building the music
studio in the basement. I dunno shit about repadding the clarinets,
the flute, or the saxophones, but that's something I need to learn. If
one of 'em is a cheap student-model instrument, overhauling it would
probably be a good learning experience for me. The brass instruments I can
take good care of, and I'll even see to it that the euphonium, the
keyboards, and the guitars get played regularly. ;-)
I may even learn how to play the woodwinds.
About half the stuff in my studio now isn't actually mine, it's just
on-loan from people short on storage space and who don't particularly
need it lying around in the way. And I'm always looking for more
donations.
--
Huey
Gary S. Callison
: Previously, H said:
: >Now if I had seen your offer before Xmas, I would have bought it for my
: > brother, the audiophile.
: Does he have any use for a Marantz turntable, probably 10 years old,
: original box and packing, and even that little 45 disk thingie (I think
: it's still in there)?
Ooh! Me! Me! Will pay shipping!
--
Huey
Boron Elgar
There probably isn't much I will get rid of at this point as a goodly
chunk of it gets played. I never know what & when (like the sax in the
closet for 2 yrs), but The princess plays reeds & brass & she is a
marching band percussionist. I have to see what happens when she goes
off to college in the fall. Some of this stuff may migrate to a dorm.
Then there are the twins, of course...one is a drummer (drum set is at
dad's) and the other is tone deaf. I might be able to convince them to
play something else, too.
What piqued any interest in divesting was Kay's menton of $5 grand.
This is House O' Music & I love it that way.
Boron
kay w
Me(kay):
>: Does he have any use for a Marantz turntable, probably 10 years old,
>: original box and packing, and even that little 45 disk thingie
Huey:
>Ooh! Me! Me! Will pay shipping!
You got it, baby. I'll get it wrapped up; you email me the address you want it
shipped to.
Dr H
On 21 Mar 2002, kay w wrote:
}Previously, H said:
}
}>Now if I had seen your offer before Xmas, I would have bought it for my
}> brother, the audiophile.
}
}Does he have any use for a Marantz turntable, probably 10 years old, original
}box and packing, and even that little 45 disk thingie (I think it's still in
}there)?
I'll ask -- he does DJ gigs, and uses a bunch of turntables for that
sort of thing.
Dr H
Dr H
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Scratchie wrote:
}Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
}: But I already own three 8-track players *and* an 8-track recorder.
}
}And here I thought you was some kind a Luddite or something.
Hell no, they're even *stereo*.
I have one of those new "toaster ovens," too...
Dr H
Dr H
Lord god, Boron, what did you do, rob a music education college?
For sheer number of instruments lying around your collection
exceeds that of a lot of professional musicians I know. (Not mine,
since I've got about a dozen guitars, just to start with, but still...)
If you really want to sell some of that stuff, e-mail me some details
and I might be interested in making you an offer for some items.
Dr H
GrapeApe
find.
you really don't have much choice in turntables on the consumer electronics
side of things anymore, and the few you do see are positioned for Price, rather
than quality.
However, Portable turntables for the DJ market are heavy duty, but not what the
typical sit on the couch listen to my old vinyl on the stereo types are
seeking.
And there is still a High End price gouging turntable market, costing many
times what most people have spent on the rest of their component system.
The decent quality at a moderate price market no longer being catered to by
manufacturers, has made the used market rather interesting. There are people
with GOOD turntables who simply have no use for them... And there are other
people WANTING good turntables that can no longer find them. So sometimes,
someone selling their old turntable by offering it to a wide enough audience,
may be surprised at the generous offers they may receive. Or some people
merely give it to GoodWill, for someone else to cherish (or market at a
profit)/
GrapeApe
>: find.
>
>Actually, I'm seeing them more and more. Tower Records even sells
>cartridges now.
This is due to a proliferation of DJs more than a growing need in the general
consumer market.
I think I wrote a similar profile in a speil on vinyl in the past few weeks,
how new vinyl disappeared completely, or hung on for indie hipsters wishing to
be different or appeal to collectors, then became more or less a market for a
growing number of freelance DJs doing the wikki wikki.
The present availability of cartridges and needles, better than some other
times in the past 15 years, is usually for someone wanting to spin platters for
others in a dub/scratch mode, rather than someone merely wanting to revisit
the copy of The Eagles Greatest Hits they have in storage (or even rarer.. buy
a vinyl copy of same new)
John Hatpin
Am I wrong, or do the guys on the podium with the silly trousers use a
different type of cartridge to normal people? I thought their needles
were designed to be operated in both directions, at the cost of
fidelity and low wear on the grooves.
GrapeApe
>different type of cartridge to normal people? I thought their needles
>were designed to be operated in both directions, at the cost of
>fidelity and low wear on the grooves.
>
They do, and those are also easier to find than say that particular needle or
cartridge for that really good turntable you had 20 years ago when you want to
listen to something that was not digitized and resold. (anyone dealt with
remastered reissues popping back and forth between Rhino, then Ryko then
whoever, buying the same stuff several times? After a while you say..why
bother)
But not all of the guys on the podium with silly trousers bother with the stuff
especially made for their manipulation act. Fewer of them actually bother with
scratching any more anyway, they are just drop the needle sampling, and beat
matching, sometimes porting the sound they want to play with to a digital means
of doing the same thing.
John Hatpin
Forgive me, for I know so little about the whole DJ cult thing, except
that the skills involved are massively over-rated.
I'm confused by "drop the needle sampling". Guessing, does that mean
playing one disc, and then overlaying (or cutting in) a section from
another? Maybe I tend to think of sampling from a digital point of
view.
As for beat matching, well, it's a sad indication of the uniformity of
rhythm and tempo in dance music if that's even possible. Do they
adopt a standard BPM in recordings to enable this?
Ach, I'm, an old fart, folks. Most of the music I listen is by dead
people, so you'll understand my confusion.
Briar Rose
>I'm confused by "drop the needle sampling". Guessing, does that mean
>playing one disc, and then overlaying (or cutting in) a section from
>another?
Yes.
>As for beat matching, well, it's a sad indication of the uniformity of
>rhythm and tempo in dance music if that's even possible. Do they
>adopt a standard BPM in recordings to enable this?
No, that's why it's a skill. You use the pitch control (or,
on turntables sometimes your hand) to speed up or slow down
a song until its BPM matches the BPM of the song playing, then
you mix song the first song into the playing song, then you
sneak it back to its correct speed.
When this is done right, it sounds seamless and smooth; I've
heard it done wrong a number of ways, all of which sound crappy
although not as crappy as crash-mixing.
>Ach, I'm, an old fart, folks. Most of the music I listen is by dead
>people, so you'll understand my confusion.
Eh, you're a cute old fart, though, so you can get away with it.
:) Connie-Lynne
--
Who cares what they're wearing, on main street or Savile Row?
It's what you wear from ear to ear, and not from head to toe
GrapeApe
>playing one disc, and then overlaying (or cutting in) a section from
>another? Maybe I tend to think of sampling from a digital point of
>view.
Yes, without as much scratching, although their may actually be some digital
sampling involved, tossed off to a box to the side for looping and
manipulation. But the vinyl itself is used more as a hard disk, or a filing
cabinet if you will.
Drop the needle sampling is sort of like grabbing some files from the cabinet
for a new report.
Scratching is more like taking the manila folder out of the cabinet to make
paper dolls.
Dr H
On 22 Mar 2002, GrapeApe wrote:
}The decent quality at a moderate price market no longer being catered to by
}manufacturers, has made the used market rather interesting. There are people
}with GOOD turntables who simply have no use for them... And there are other
}people WANTING good turntables that can no longer find them. So sometimes,
}someone selling their old turntable by offering it to a wide enough audience,
}may be surprised at the generous offers they may receive. Or some people
}merely give it to GoodWill, for someone else to cherish (or market at a
}profit)/
}
There are also places that recondition used turntables and resell then
at reasonable prices.
Dr H
John Hatpin
>John Hatpin <ag...@brooremovemekview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>: Forgive me, for I know so little about the whole DJ cult thing, except
>: that the skills involved are massively over-rated.
>
>How many minutes of "new" music can you provide for a party just by
>dropping the needle on two copies of the same record and substituting
>other ones in at times?
Me, I don't use records to create "new" music. I sit at the keyboard
and play. It takes years of sweat and toil to learn enough to do it
properly, and there's no guarantee that any individual will ever be
able to do well enough to keep a crowd entertained, but it's worth it
if you can.
Don't tell me that dropping needles on records is a comparable skill
to learning to create music from (pardon the pun) scratch.
John Hatpin
>John Hatpin <ag...@brooREMOVEMEkview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>I'm confused by "drop the needle sampling". Guessing, does that mean
>>playing one disc, and then overlaying (or cutting in) a section from
>>another?
>
>Yes.
>
>>As for beat matching, well, it's a sad indication of the uniformity of
>>rhythm and tempo in dance music if that's even possible. Do they
>>adopt a standard BPM in recordings to enable this?
>
>No, that's why it's a skill. You use the pitch control (or,
>on turntables sometimes your hand) to speed up or slow down
>a song until its BPM matches the BPM of the song playing, then
>you mix song the first song into the playing song, then you
>sneak it back to its correct speed.
Doesn't that confuse the dancers? Or are they used to rhythms
gradually speeding up and slowing down with no relationship to the
musical context?
>When this is done right, it sounds seamless and smooth; I've
>heard it done wrong a number of ways, all of which sound crappy
>although not as crappy as crash-mixing.
I can understand that term "crash-mixing", I think. Is that going
straight from one track to another without trying to merge the tempos?
Holy shit, no wonder these people need to take Es and amphetamines.
If a sudden tempo change makes them fall over each other, maybe they
really *need* to seek solace somewhere outside of their heads.
>>Ach, I'm, an old fart, folks. Most of the music I listen is by dead
>>people, so you'll understand my confusion.
>
>Eh, you're a cute old fart, though, so you can get away with it.
*blushing* Awww ... thank you, you sweet gal.
GrapeApe
>>rhythm and tempo in dance music if that's even possible. Do they
>>adopt a standard BPM in recordings to enable this?
>
>No, that's why it's a skill. You use the pitch control (or,
>on turntables sometimes your hand) to speed up or slow down
>a song until its BPM matches the BPM of the song playing, then
>you mix song the first song into the playing song, then you
>sneak it back to its correct speed.
No isn't a complete answer however. Many records made for the dance market keep
the tempo in mind, and even mark the tempo on the label. 120 bpm used to be
common on disco singles (for eighth notes I guess, I always thought that rather
rushed for quarter notes)
The AFCA Kid
>Scratchie wrote:
>
>>John Hatpin <ag...@brooremovemekview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>: Forgive me, for I know so little about the whole DJ cult thing, except
>>: that the skills involved are massively over-rated.
>>
>>How many minutes of "new" music can you provide for a party just by
>>dropping the needle on two copies of the same record and substituting
>>other ones in at times?
>
>Me, I don't use records to create "new" music.
"zero"
>Don't tell me that dropping needles on records is a comparable skill
>to learning to create music from (pardon the pun) scratch.
Well, it's at least comparable. While we're on the subject, how's your
freestyle flow?
--
"I have been paid a lot for my work, but never everything." -Chris Adams
tooloud10
news:hk4m9ugia24lmmlo4...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> Forgive me, for I know so little about the whole DJ cult thing, except
> that the skills involved are massively over-rated.
...and junior high kids can learn to play the piano; that doesn't
necessarily mean that you'd want to listen to it, however.
> I'm confused by "drop the needle sampling". Guessing, does that mean
> playing one disc, and then overlaying (or cutting in) a section from
> another? Maybe I tend to think of sampling from a digital point of
> view.
>
> As for beat matching, well, it's a sad indication of the uniformity of
> rhythm and tempo in dance music if that's even possible. Do they
> adopt a standard BPM in recordings to enable this?
>
> Ach, I'm, an old fart, folks. Most of the music I listen is by dead
> people, so you'll understand my confusion.
I like dead people music too.
> --
> John Hatpin
> "I am very interested in the Universe. I am specialising in the
> Universe and all that surrounds it." -- Peter Cook
--
tooloud10
Remove nothing to reply...
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D., P.A.
> :>dropping the needle on two copies of the same record and substituting
> :>other ones in at times?
>
> : Me, I don't use records to create "new" music. I sit at the keyboard
> : and play. It takes years of sweat and toil to learn enough to do it
> : properly, and there's no guarantee that any individual will ever be
> : able to do well enough to keep a crowd entertained, but it's worth it
> : if you can.
>
> : Don't tell me that dropping needles on records is a comparable skill
> : to learning to create music from (pardon the pun) scratch.
>
> same old songs that have been around for hundreds of years. The roots of
> hip hop are that the DJ would create a whole new backing track out of old
> records by just repeating the instrumental bits as the rappers talked over
> it. And doing it so you can't hear the "seams". And doing it all night.
And destroying good, if not irreplaceable, vinyl. Ultimate expression
of selfish ego.
> Is this as hard as playing Chopin? Probably not. But is it something that
> people can just walk up to a pair of turntables and do without training
> and practice? Almost certainly not.
Zappa did it with tape, as did his mentors before him. Musique Concrete is
nothing new.
tooloud10
news:3C9DA3F1.A04@_REMOVETHIS_erols.com...
<snip>
> > It's a different skill. Most people who take piano lessons just play the
> > same old songs that have been around for hundreds of years. The roots of
> > hip hop are that the DJ would create a whole new backing track out of
old
> > records by just repeating the instrumental bits as the rappers talked
over
> > it. And doing it so you can't hear the "seams". And doing it all night.
>
> And destroying good, if not irreplaceable, vinyl. Ultimate expression
> of selfish ego.
For the most part, they're not sourcing their vinyl from the
Smithsonian...and they often have several copies.
> > Is this as hard as playing Chopin? Probably not. But is it something
that
> > people can just walk up to a pair of turntables and do without training
> > and practice? Almost certainly not.
>
> Zappa did it with tape, as did his mentors before him. Musique Concrete
is
> nothing new.
--
GrapeApe
>> rhythm and tempo in dance music if that's even possible. Do they
>> adopt a standard BPM in recordings to enable this?
>>
>> Ach, I'm, an old fart, folks. Most of the music I listen is by dead
>> people, so you'll understand my confusion.
>
>I like dead people music too.
There are probably some dead people who had a BPM rating on their releases. It
has been a practice since the late 70's at least, and recording artists are
dying every day.
Dana Carpender
tooloud10 wrote:
>
>
>
> I like dead people music too.
"I hear dead people..."
--
Dana W. Carpender
Author, How I Gave Up My Low Fat Diet -- And Lost Forty Pounds!
http://www.holdthetoast.com
Check out our FREE Low Carb Ezine!
John Hatpin
>John Hatpin <ag...@brooremovemekview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>:>
>:>How many minutes of "new" music can you provide for a party just by
>:>dropping the needle on two copies of the same record and substituting
>:>other ones in at times?
>
>: Me, I don't use records to create "new" music. I sit at the keyboard
>: and play. It takes years of sweat and toil to learn enough to do it
>: properly, and there's no guarantee that any individual will ever be
>: able to do well enough to keep a crowd entertained, but it's worth it
>: if you can.
>
>: Don't tell me that dropping needles on records is a comparable skill
>: to learning to create music from (pardon the pun) scratch.
>
>
>It's a different skill. Most people who take piano lessons just play the
>same old songs that have been around for hundreds of years. The roots of
>hip hop are that the DJ would create a whole new backing track out of old
>records by just repeating the instrumental bits as the rappers talked over
>it. And doing it so you can't hear the "seams". And doing it all night.
>
>Is this as hard as playing Chopin? Probably not. But is it something that
>people can just walk up to a pair of turntables and do without training
>and practice? Almost certainly not.
OK, I'm not saying it's something anyone could pick up in half an hour
... BUT ...
There was a series of TV programmes here a while back, and the theme
was that they'd take someone and groom them to excel in a given field
in a short period - about two weeks. I don't know if you get that
over there, but it was very popular "reality TV" here for a while.
Anyway, one of these involved a woman in her early 20s who was trained
to be a top-class DJ, and had to do a gig in one of the top clubs in
Ibiza (the place where all the big UK DJs go to do their stuff).
So, they had a small team of experience DJs who talked her through the
process, and after the fortnight was up, she had to do a set alongside
five top DJs, and a panel of experts had to work out which was the
ringer. She was so good, they couldn't agree.
I'd bet even Mozart took longer than two weeks to learn to play the
violin and piano like a seasoned pro, and he was exceptionally
precocious.
After seeing that, all comparisons about the skills of a musician and
the skills of a DJ really began to fade.
Of course, if people want to go to a club to hear a DJ rather than a
band, then the DJ will be rated more highly as a performer than a
musician would. My quibble is with the angle of the learning curve,
and nothing more.
Well, not tonight, anway ...
John Hatpin
Yup. Even Zappa used click-tracks, and he wasn't one for conformity.
They just come in handy when you're multi-tracking, before the rhythm
tracks are laid down properly, especially when you haven't got the
time to do it all in the sequence the studio usually dictates - say
for example you need a horn part before the drummer can turn up.
GrapeApe
>band, then the DJ will be rated more highly as a performer than a
>musician would. My quibble is with the angle of the learning curve,
>and nothing more.
>
>Well, not tonight, anway .
of course its more than understanding the equipment, or which songs to work
with. It has to do with reading the crowd and its expectations
GrapeApe
>of selfish ego.
actually, if they are cutting their own acetates to make things easy on
themselves, the vinyl often is One of a Kind.
John Hatpin
And playing live music isn't?
GrapeApe
>>>band, then the DJ will be rated more highly as a performer than a
>>>musician would. My quibble is with the angle of the learning curve,
>>>and nothing more.
>>>
>>>Well, not tonight, anway .
>>
>>of course its more than understanding the equipment, or which songs to
>work
>>with. It has to do with reading the crowd and its expectations
>
>And playing live music isn't?
For some of the stuff being marketed as Live music these days, the learning
curve is one of knowing the lyrics for a 45 minute set while people dance and
mime to a taped backing. You know not much more than the typical grammar school
play. And there may not be a lot of playing off the crowd in those situations
either.
Andrew Gore
<ag...@brooREMOVEMEkview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>There was a series of TV programmes here a while back, and the theme
>was that they'd take someone and groom them to excel in a given field
>in a short period - about two weeks. I don't know if you get that
>over there, but it was very popular "reality TV" here for a while.
>
>Anyway, one of these involved a woman in her early 20s who was trained
>to be a top-class DJ, and had to do a gig in one of the top clubs in
>Ibiza (the place where all the big UK DJs go to do their stuff).
>
>So, they had a small team of experience DJs who talked her through the
>process, and after the fortnight was up, she had to do a set alongside
>five top DJs, and a panel of experts had to work out which was the
>ringer. She was so good, they couldn't agree.
What an interesting idea for a TV program. Take some
regular-shmoe volunteer, hire a team of experts in some esoteric feild
to give him a couple week's crash training, in something he has always
been interested in learning but never did, and put them "on the job"
and see how they do. Interesting to think of what skills would work in
that contex. i would find that far more interesting than the spate of
'reality' shows so popular today.
The AFCA Kid
>There was a series of TV programmes here a while back, and the theme
>was that they'd take someone and groom them to excel in a given field
>in a short period - about two weeks. I don't know if you get that
>over there, but it was very popular "reality TV" here for a while.
>
>Anyway, one of these involved a woman in her early 20s who was trained
>to be a top-class DJ, and had to do a gig in one of the top clubs in
>Ibiza (the place where all the big UK DJs go to do their stuff).
>
>So, they had a small team of experience DJs who talked her through the
>process, and after the fortnight was up, she had to do a set alongside
>five top DJs, and a panel of experts had to work out which was the
>ringer. She was so good, they couldn't agree.
Huh. Do you mean like a scratch DJ, or was she just picking out and playing
records that people like to dance to?
>
>I'd bet even Mozart took longer than two weeks to learn to play the
>violin and piano like a seasoned pro, and he was exceptionally
>precocious.
I bet Kid Capri took longer than two weeks to learn how to work the cross
fader like he does.
>
>After seeing that, all comparisons about the skills of a musician and
>the skills of a DJ really began to fade.
I dunno, I think a scratch DJ really is more of a musician, at least a
percussionist than you're letting on.
Still, though...in high school, the marching band teacher, facing a shortage
of drummers, once walked into a study hall, selected a few kids at random and
told them they were going to play drums in the marching band. All of them
managed to pick it up well enough in a couple of weeks to handle keeping
cadences at football games. nevertheless, I bet it took Art Blakey a little
longer to learn what he does.
The AFCA Kid
>
> What an interesting idea for a TV program. Take some
>regular-shmoe volunteer, hire a team of experts in some esoteric feild
>to give him a couple week's crash training, in something he has always
>been interested in learning but never did, and put them "on the job"
>and see how they do. Interesting to think of what skills would work in
>that contex. i would find that far more interesting than the spate of
>'reality' shows so popular today.
When I was an engineer, I used to tell the doctor at the building I could pass
myself off as a doctor simply by perscribing vicodan to anyone who walked in
the door, and he agreed that would work in 90% of the cases.
I'd think a similar percentage of computer technical issues could be resolved
by trying "retry, reboot, reinstall" in that order.
The AFCA Kid
>And destroying good, if not irreplaceable, vinyl. Ultimate expression
>of selfish ego.
Well, and, you now, some measure of creativity.
osmium
> When I was an engineer, I used to tell the doctor at the building I could
pass
> myself off as a doctor simply by perscribing vicodan to anyone who walked
in
> the door, and he agreed that would work in 90% of the cases.
All right, I give up. How does one cease being an engineer? Is there some
new operation in Denmark I haven't heard about? Does it involve drilling
holes in the head?
The AFCA Kid
>Dutch Courage wrote:
>
>> When I was an engineer, I used to tell the doctor at the building I could
>pass
>> myself off as a doctor simply by perscribing vicodan to anyone who walked
>in
>> the door, and he agreed that would work in 90% of the cases.
>
>All right, I give up. How does one cease being an engineer?
Get a new job delivering pizza.
> Is there some
>new operation in Denmark I haven't heard about?
Probably
> Does it involve drilling
>holes in the head?
Huh. I wonder how much you need that...
Kim
"Andrew Gore" <dic...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:v4jt9uoeun73hn4aq...@4ax.com...
>
> What an interesting idea for a TV program. Take some
> regular-shmoe volunteer, hire a team of experts in some esoteric feild
> to give him a couple week's crash training, in something he has always
> been interested in learning but never did, and put them "on the job"
> and see how they do. Interesting to think of what skills would work in
> that contex. i would find that far more interesting than the spate of
> 'reality' shows so popular today.
Been done already. I actually liked the show - called "The Big Moment".
Hosted by Brad Sherwood, ran in 1999.
Here's a link that talks about the show and some of the challenges the
contestants faced.
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/gsjackpot/bigmoment.html
Kim
*If I ever get another cat, it's going to be a big one, like a tiger or a
panther. That way, if he ever gets upset and viciously scratches me across
my face, the bastard won't be able to hide under the bed. (Tidewater Joe)*
John Hatpin
>John Hatpin <ag...@brooremovemekview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>: So, they had a small team of experience DJs who talked her through the
>: process, and after the fortnight was up, she had to do a set alongside
>: five top DJs, and a panel of experts had to work out which was the
>: ringer. She was so good, they couldn't agree.
>
>That's an interesting benchmark, but I wonder how different the DJ world
>is today -- what with special club mix singles out the yin-yang and
>digital sampling and the works -- compared to the late 70s when it was
>literally just a guy with two turntables and a stack of records. Just a
>thought.
I should have mentioned that this programme was broadcast only a few
months ago, so the DJs' requirements would be pretty up-to-date. I
watched it for an insight into what they actually do with the gear,
but they showed very little of that. It wasn't even clear if they
used digital gear at all. The producers didn't want to frighten off
the prime-time TV audience with talk of gear.
Musing: as for 70s DJs, it often struck me how plain odd they were.
They always looked like stereotypical child-molesters, and often had
strange afflictions, such as speech impediments, prolapsed noses or
extra limbs. Perhaps these days the extra limbs go inside the big
trousers, and the rest is masked digitally.
>: I'd bet even Mozart took longer than two weeks to learn to play the
>: violin and piano like a seasoned pro, and he was exceptionally
>: precocious.
>
>: After seeing that, all comparisons about the skills of a musician and
>: the skills of a DJ really began to fade.
>
>Hey, I admitted in my previous post that the skills don't compare to
>(insert your favorite classical musician/composer here). But I bet someone
>could be taught to play convincing blues guitar in two weeks. Or electric
>bass for almost any style. Does that mean that those aren't "real"
>instruments?
Yes, I wasn't arguing against you, Art. I was just picking up on your
thread. Now I'm going to change that, due to your last three
sentences.
If, as you say, "someone could be taught to play convincing blues
guitar in two weeks", I'd like to meet that person. They've got
talent. Most people are still staring at the fret-markers at that
stage, or trying to get a bar shape that plays on all barred strings.
It's not as easy as it looks. Bottle-necks don't help out much,
either.
Hell, I can't imagine anyone being able to *tune* a guitar accurately
after two weeks, let alone play the damned thing well enough to gig.
As for electric bass, I don't know what style of music you're thinking
of, but I see no reason to denigrate it as an instrument that needs
little training or practice. You've got to be absolutely spot-on with
your timing, cope with absurd fret distances (even on a short-scale
instrument), and then try to find your way through the changes in a
way suited to the rhythms and harmonies of each piece. Not easy.
Screw up, and you get an angry drummer in your face after the gig,
with a queue of musicians behind holding baseball bats and looking
distinctly unfriendly. Or, more likely, you won't pass a single
audition.
GrapeApe
>They always looked like stereotypical child-molesters, and often had
>strange afflictions, such as speech impediments, prolapsed noses or
>extra limbs. Perhaps these days the extra limbs go inside the big
>trousers, and the rest is masked digitally.
I don't think it is too big of a secret that many people with speech
impediments go into broadcasting as occupational therapy, and even make it work
for them.
See Tom Brokaw or Barbara Walters.
Gary S. Callison
: Scratchie wrote:
: > Hey, I admitted in my previous post that the skills don't compare to
: > (insert your favorite classical musician/composer here). But I bet
: > someone could be taught to play convincing blues guitar in two weeks.
: guitar in two weeks", I'd like to meet that person. They've got
: talent. Most people are still staring at the fret-markers at that
: stage, or trying to get a bar shape that plays on all barred strings.
: It's not as easy as it looks. Bottle-necks don't help out much,
: either.
I could teach someone willing to spend at least an hour a day practicing
over the course of two weeks how to pull off a passable hack at a simple
open-chord folk tune. Pick any easy James Taylor song, and I'll larn ya
the changes. Two weeks of hard work, that's about right.
'convincing blues guitar'- an even-remotely beginner attempt at the
simplest thing Stevie Ray Vaughn or BB King ever did- would take a couple
months at that intensity, I think. Figure a couple weeks just getting the
pentatonic scale into muscle memory, and the rest of the time knowing what
to do with it and when. Double or triple that time-frame for cases of
Excessive Whiteness and Severe Lack of Soul.
: Hell, I can't imagine anyone being able to *tune* a guitar accurately
: after two weeks, let alone play the damned thing well enough to gig.
It shouldn't take more than a couple days for someone to learn how to tune
the damn thing, assuming they know some basic music theory or some other
instrument to begin with. You play piano, and you have a keyboard? An
hour, easy.
: > Or electric bass for almost any style. Does that mean that those
: > aren't "real" instruments?
: As for electric bass, I don't know what style of music you're thinking
: of, but I see no reason to denigrate it as an instrument that needs
: little training or practice.
Green Day covers. Three or four notes, straight time. A monkey could do
it.
Now, even basic jazz changes and a Charlie Parker turnaround will take a
couple weeks easy. 'Swing' and 'Bop' are real hard ideas for a jazz idiot
to wrap their mind around, and all the more so for the bass that drives
the whole thing.
: You've got to be absolutely spot-on with your timing, cope with absurd
: fret distances (even on a short-scale instrument), and then try to find
: your way through the changes in a way suited to the rhythms and
: harmonies of each piece. Not easy.
My assumptions are that the prospective student already understands the
concept of 'time', some basic music theory, and can read changes out of a
fake book. If I have to teach a semester of music theory on top of all
this, triple everything. And if the guy is tone-deaf, find another teacher.
There are very few genres of music that are just dirt easy to fall into.
Blues is not one of them. It's deceptively difficult. Jazz, on the other
hand, is quite overtly difficult. At least in rock & roll you only see
7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, and downright dense polychordal shit as
occasional color, like the V suspended major 7th that closes the keyboard
hook to Van Halen 'Jump'. Most rock music is I-IV-V-I E and A barre
chords, from Chuck Berry to the aforementioned Green Day covers. I can
teach someone to do that poorly (again, assuming some other musical talent
and basic understanding of principles) in a couple months, sure. But if
somebody is going to pick on blues & jazz as 'simplistic'- har har. It's
as difficult musically as classical music is. And some rock has jazz &
classical influences. VH, Satriani, Vai, Eric Johnson - it's got "too many
notes in it". Steely Dan? It's jazz in four with a rock beat. Good luck
picking that up in two weeks.
At Northern Illinois U, the jazz program and the classical program are
mostly separate-but-equal, although there's some crossover. The jazz guys
are every bit the consummate musicians that the classical folks are, and
study every bit as hard. And the jazz groups have won a sizeable number
of Blue Note awards. After taking state five years running through junior
high & high school, being told that I was 'gifted', and getting a music
scholarship from them- I felt out of place there. Too many people who
could blow me off of any instrument-of-choice. Humbling, even. Now, I've
been playing music since I was eight years old, and there I was at 20,
feeling out of place trying to play jazz with these people, totally
outgunned.
Two weeks? Har har. Scratchie, it is now the 25th of March. Go down to
Guitar Center and buy the cheap $180 Ibanez bass. I'll spot you a day,
in case they're closed. I wanna hear the Sweet Georgia Brown walking bass
line by the 9th of April. Nothing fancy, just land on every note and try
to be in the neighborhood of the root of the chord when it changes. Should
be simple, right? Just plain old quarter notes, one right after the other?
Good luck.
--
Huey
GrapeApe
>simplest thing Stevie Ray Vaughn or BB King ever did- would take a couple
>months at that intensity, I think. Figure a couple weeks just getting the
>pentatonic scale into muscle memory, and the rest of the time knowing what
>to do with it and when.
Sometimes what to do with it and when comes rather naturally.
John Hatpin
> What an interesting idea for a TV program. Take some
>regular-shmoe volunteer, hire a team of experts in some esoteric feild
>to give him a couple week's crash training, in something he has always
>been interested in learning but never did, and put them "on the job"
>and see how they do. Interesting to think of what skills would work in
>that contex. i would find that far more interesting than the spate of
>'reality' shows so popular today.
In this show, IIRC, there was no requirement for the person involved
to have any interest in, or knowledge of, their temporary field of
expertise. It probably worked better that way.
Times like this, I ought to put Mrs Hatpin on the keyboard. She
watches this stuff, and could remember much more than me. She's
asleep, so I'll fill in the best I can.
There was one (apart from the DJ one) I can remember, which concerned
a Northern English guy who was trained to paint and exhibit works of
modern art. Now, this man was a down-to-earth manual worker with
cheap tattoos and no desire to mix with arty people in London. He
took it on, though.
He didn't have any training in art other than basic suggestions of
media - in fact, he was encouraged to scrawl and splash pictures that
came to mind, and mostly left to his own devices, until it came to
shortlisting the pictures that would be exhibited.
He soon decided to concentrate on images of himself as a disabled kid,
because he'd been through that in his real life (but he got better).
In the meantime, he was given a make-over - he grew the appropriate
facial hair, was taken shopping for the latest in arty-trendy clothes,
got the hair-style, the demeanour, the works.
Also, he was instructed in jargon. He learned to use the right words
to describe his paintings - "in" words that I can't recall, and he'd
never heard before. He was also given mock interviews to help him to
get used to the idea of selling himself as a serious artist to the
experts.
That man went through a whole load of depression, anger and
self-hatred during the process. Knowledgeable advisors would walk
into the studio he was using, point at paintings and say things like:
"that's crap, that's crap, that's crap, and that's crap, but that one
over there might work if you started all over again". God, he
suffered.
After several weeks, there was the exhibition. By now, he looked,
sounded and acted completely differently, and only the viewing
audience and the other ringers knew that he was faking it all.
He spoke to the panel of experts (who were true experts, culled from
Arts academia), and discussed his work, throwing in the right words at
the right time, wearing the right clothes and hairstyle, and ended up
fooling them all.
The experts knew that one of the six (?) artists was a trained
newcomer - the others were genuine, aspiring, trained artists - but
none of the experts knew which one was the newbie. They hadn't a
clue. The man won hands down. The critics lost.
At the end of the show, he was filmed going back home to his normal
life, and his grin said it all. He'd taken on the arty-farty set and
won.
So, would this work on the other side of the Pond?
GrapeApe
>Arts academia), and discussed his work, throwing in the right words at
>the right time, wearing the right clothes and hairstyle, and ended up
>fooling them all.
>
>The experts knew that one of the six (?) artists was a trained
>newcomer - the others were genuine, aspiring, trained artists - but
>none of the experts knew which one was the newbie. They hadn't a
>clue. The man won hands down. The critics lost.
>
>At the end of the show, he was filmed going back home to his normal
>life, and his grin said it all. He'd taken on the arty-farty set and
>won.
Or did he?... Naive self taught artists have a cachet of their own. If I could
spot any trend in art criticism in the past 25 years, academic background has
little to do with what is hot. Folk artists such as bicycle repairman Howard
Finster, on the other hand....
And the guy even suffered for his art, from recalling his past, to doing
something he had no interest in doing. Maybe it came through as artistic
angst. And if it was suspected that he was trying to pull one over the critics
eyes, that sort of thing goes over big as well. Cultural Criticism.
I've taken a few art courses.. I'm a fair draftsman. Almost always the most
interesting work in any class was that filtered through the person who was
having the biggest struggle with the basics of drawing what is seen as compared
to symbolic representation (such as a stick man, a box and a inverted V as a
house).. it was often the most expressive work.. they may have hated it but I
thought it was great.
StarChaser_Tyger
AFCA Kid),
> I'd think a similar percentage of computer technical issues could be resolved
> by trying "retry, reboot, reinstall" in that order.
Reboot, retry, reinstall would work better...
--
Visit the Furry Artist InFURmation Page! Contact information, which artists
do and don't want their work posted. http://web.tampabay.rr.com/starchsr/
Address no longer munged for the inconvienence of spammers.
(Yes, this really is me.)
The AFCA Kid
>
>We get signal. What you say? It's mutigho...@aol.comseven (The
>AFCA Kid),
>
>> I'd think a similar percentage of computer technical issues could be
>resolved
>> by trying "retry, reboot, reinstall" in that order.
>
>Reboot, retry, reinstall would work better...
I was including "reboot and retry" as a single thing under "reboot,' and
suggesting you start off closing the program that didn't work and starting it
back up.
"No, don't save your changes."
Margaret Kane
"GrapeApe" <grap...@aol.comjunk> wrote in message
news:20020325221112...@mb-md.aol.com...
I'm not seeing how he "won" exactly.What was the contest?
What exactly were the critics judging? Who was untrained? The earlier
description said someone went through and vetted his art, selecting out the
best pieces for him to develop, and told him about current art theories (the
"jargon"). That's a form of training, anyway.
If the critics were just judging who was the best artist, well, maybe he
was the best. Maybe he had natural talent and was given the opportunity to
express it.
Margaret
John Hatpin
>John Hatpin <ag...@brooremovemekview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>: If, as you say, "someone could be taught to play convincing blues
>: guitar in two weeks", I'd like to meet that person. They've got
>: talent. Most people are still staring at the fret-markers at that
>: stage, or trying to get a bar shape that plays on all barred strings.
>: It's not as easy as it looks. Bottle-necks don't help out much,
>: either.
>
>I'm assuming that this is someone with a modicum of talent who's willing
>to put several hours a day into the project. I mean, I'm not expecting to
>get Albert King out the other end but someone who can play a song start to
>finish with a nice little solo in the middle. Shit, it seems like every
>open-mike night these days has some 12-year old kid who plays like Stevie
>Ray, so how hard can it be? It's a five-note scale and some basic chord
>shapes.
Maybe things have changed since I last heard a 12-year-old kid play
guitar. Or maybe your definition of passable blues guitar is
different from mine. A nice little solo has more than just a
five-note scale in it - the rhythm's much harder to get than the
notes.
Having said that, every time I hear the 8-year-old (?) Stevie Wonder
on "Fingertips", I sort of fall over. My eldest is 9, shows a lot of
potential, but still can't clap his hands four to the bar with any
real accuracy. Mind you, he's a white British kid with no major pain
in his soul.
>: As for electric bass, I don't know what style of music you're thinking
>: of, but I see no reason to denigrate it as an instrument that needs
>: little training or practice.
>
>I've been a bass player for about six and a half years, and I've been
>playing in bands for close to 20. (Now there's a scary thought, but that's
>a different thread.)
Yes, it doesn't bear thinking about, does it? I started playing piano
35 years ago. Played in a band for the first time about 32 years ago
(by this time on trumpet), formed my first band 26 years ago, first
played a gig shortly after, first studio recording 25 years ago.
Damn, those numbers are too big, but they're correct. How can anyone
achieve so little of lasting value over so much time?
Having said that, I met my wife at a gig I was playing, so at least
something's come of it.
>: You've got to be absolutely spot-on with
>: your timing, cope with absurd fret distances (even on a short-scale
>: instrument), and then try to find your way through the changes in a
>: way suited to the rhythms and harmonies of each piece. Not easy.
>
>Electric bass is pretty much the easiest instrument to get started
>on. That's why they always give it to the guy who's not very good. Again,
>there's a big gap between "competent" and "great" but it's not like
>learning to play Tchaikovsky on the theremin or something.
Maybe we're talking about different styles again. If I were offered a
choice between a below-average bass player with an above-average
guitarist and vice versa, I'd go for the better bass every time. But
then I value a tight, exciting rhythm section over a good guitarist.
Ideally, both would be good, and so would the whole band.
A corollary of what you say is that budding bassists are likely to
become dissatisfied with their niche and move over to the guitar, so
I've always had a good choice of guitarists, but have had to struggle
to find good bass players.
[...]
>Haven't you heard the joke?
>
>Kid wants to play bass. His father offers to give him lessons.
>
>First week, he teaches him the first four notes on the low "E" string.
>Tells him to practice those for a week.
>
>Second week, he teaches him the first four notes on the "A" string. Tells
>him to practice those for a week.
>
>Third week rolls around, he says "Son, it's time for your bass lesson."
>Kid says "Aw, Dad! But I've got a gig!"
No, I'd not heard that before, and it's a good one. Plenty of
chuckles chez Hatpin - thanks, I'll remember it.
John Hatpin
Slight top-post: I'm guessing you're replying to my post, rather than
Grape's, and responding under that assumption.
>I'm not seeing how he "won" exactly.What was the contest?
>
>What exactly were the critics judging? Who was untrained? The earlier
>description said someone went through and vetted his art, selecting out the
>best pieces for him to develop, and told him about current art theories (the
>"jargon"). That's a form of training, anyway.
>
>If the critics were just judging who was the best artist, well, maybe he
>was the best. Maybe he had natural talent and was given the opportunity to
>express it.
Sorry, I should have been clearer.
He and his trainers won because he was able to convince the judges
that he was not a newcomer to art by the fact that they couldn't
distinguish his paintings from those created by trained and
knowledgeable artists who had studied art for years.
The guy was trained in the accoutrements, not the art. He learned how
to talk the talk and walk the walk more than how to paint the paint.
His paintings didn't win, his practised and assumed posturing did.
It's very difficult to describe this programme, but the primary gist I
got was that he had succeeded not because he painted well (he didn't)
but because he was trained in using the jargon, wearing the clothes
and affecting the background of the normal young,
soon-to-be-successful artist. The panel of experts couldn't tell he
was faking the "experienced artist" routine.
He pretended to have had several previous exhibitions, and to have
been driven by a long-held burning desire to paint. He learned how to
use words like "juxtaposition", which he'd never heard before, in
order to present an acceptable front to the judges.
It came out very, very much as an update on the old anecdote (which I
naively believe to be true) of a chimpanzee whose abstract art was
exhibited anonymously, to the adulation of high-profile art critics.
They were then introduced to the simian painter, and thus publicly
humiliated. ISTR this formed the basis of a horror movie, too.
Of course, the man wasn't a chimpanzee. He was just a damned good
bloke without any pretences. Whether or not his art was worth looking
at is a subjective question, but also irrelevant.
However, there's no doubt that if he'd not had the training, and had
tried to convince the art experts that his work was worth further
investment and exhibition, he'd have failed.
He won, and the experts lost.
The AFCA Kid
> He was just a damned good
>bloke without any pretences.
Or, who knows, he might well have been a plant. Hell, the whole thing might
have been staged.
> Whether or not his art was worth looking
>at is a subjective question, but also irrelevant.
I dunno about that, either, there's always the outside possibility he was
actually good.
>
>However, there's no doubt that if he'd not had the training, and had
>tried to convince the art experts that his work was worth further
>investment and exhibition, he'd have failed.
A large part of most things is presentation, when you stop and think about it.
After all, some people can tell a joke, and some people can't.
>He won, and the experts lost.
You've got two weeks to learn how to scratch DJ. Put yourself up on a website
and see if people can tell your work from Kid Capri. I don't think you can do
it.
The AFCA Kid
>John Hatpin ag...@brooREMOVEMEkview.ka writes:
>
>> He was just a damned good
>>bloke without any pretences.
>
> Or, who knows, he might well have been a plant. Hell, the whole thing might
>have been staged.
>
>> Whether or not his art was worth looking
>>at is a subjective question, but also irrelevant.
>
> I dunno about that, either, there's always the outside possibility he was
>actually good.
>
>
>>
>>However, there's no doubt that if he'd not had the training, and had
>>tried to convince the art experts that his work was worth further
>>investment and exhibition, he'd have failed.
>
> A large part of most things is presentation, when you stop and think about
>it.
>After all, some people can tell a joke, and some people can't.
>
>
>>He won, and the experts lost.
I'm also wondering, yo uknow, I assume this was abstract expressionism, or
something like it, and from Pinprick's description, it sounds like the "nice
young man" was more or less told what to paint, which is starting to sound less
and less like the critics really were fooled, when you think about it.
Here, let's try a thought experiment.
Marcel Duchamp picks out some readymades and tells Hatpin about some fancy art
object he can make; fur covered ping pong balls, upside down urinals, whatever.
He also gives him a smattering of art jargon, maybe even a couple of good one
liners, so John has something better to say to the critics we're going to have
look at the art than "uh, well, you know, whatever." And our guy can even fill
in and shade pretty well, so he's able to make something like Nude Descending
from a couple of sketches. Well, so the critics pick him as promising new
artist. Does that mean Marcel is a fraud, or does it mean he's really a giant
talent, so that pretending to be him for an evening with a few props makes you
seem like a talented new artist?
Think about it.
>
>You've got two weeks to learn how to scratch DJ. Put yourself up on a website
>and see if people can tell your work from Kid Capri. I don't think you can do
>it.
Anyone want to try this?
StarChaser_Tyger
AFCA Kid),
> StarChaser_Tyger StarC...@mindless.com writes:
>
> >
> >We get signal. What you say? It's mutigho...@aol.comseven (The
> >AFCA Kid),
> >
> >> I'd think a similar percentage of computer technical issues could be
> >resolved
> >> by trying "retry, reboot, reinstall" in that order.
> >
> >Reboot, retry, reinstall would work better...
>
> I was including "reboot and retry" as a single thing under "reboot,' and
> suggesting you start off closing the program that didn't work and starting it
> back up.
>
> "No, don't save your changes."
Ah, so desu. Sorry...
Gary S. Callison
: Having said that, every time I hear the 8-year-old (?) Stevie Wonder
: on "Fingertips", I sort of fall over. My eldest is 9, shows a lot of
: potential, but still can't clap his hands four to the bar with any
: real accuracy. Mind you, he's a white British kid with no major pain
: in his soul.
This is too long for a motto, which is a shame, really.
--
Huey "will thank the ex-wife next time I play a blues gig" Callison
kay w
>My eldest is 9, shows a lot of
>: potential, but still can't clap his hands four to the bar with any
>: real accuracy. Mind you, he's a white British kid with no major pain
>: in his soul.
Why do some people have *no* sense of rhythm?
(Nothing specific about your kid, Hatpin ... I'm wondering in general, cause I
know a couple people who couldn't keep a beat in a cage.)
--
kay w
Address munged. AOL isn't necessarily comatose, evidence to the contrary not
withstanding.
Lesmond
>
>It came out very, very much as an update on the old anecdote (which I
>naively believe to be true) of a chimpanzee whose abstract art was
>exhibited anonymously, to the adulation of high-profile art critics.
>They were then introduced to the simian painter, and thus publicly
>humiliated. ISTR this formed the basis of a horror movie, too.
>
It was a segment of the anthology film "Dr. Terror's House of Horrors."
__
Do it now, but don't get caught.
John Hatpin
>John Hatpin said, in part:
>
>>My eldest is 9, shows a lot of
>>: potential, but still can't clap his hands four to the bar with any
>>: real accuracy. Mind you, he's a white British kid with no major pain
>>: in his soul.
>
>Why do some people have *no* sense of rhythm?
>
>(Nothing specific about your kid, Hatpin ... I'm wondering in general, cause I
>know a couple people who couldn't keep a beat in a cage.)
I've wondered about this a lot over the years, and come to no useful
conclusions. I'd guess there's a lot of research that could be done
in this area, but it's not being done because the obvious question
sounds racially divisive, to whit:
Why do so many four-year-old black kids dance so well when most of us
honkies can't find the beat, let alone move to it?
Of course, there are many exceptions to the rule, but empirical
observation suggests a correlation.
John Hatpin
Thanks - I wouldn't have got that. And the simian artist anecdote
itself - is it truth or myth?
kay w
John Hatpin said, in part:
>>My eldest is 9, shows a lot of
>> potential, but still can't clap his hands four to the bar with any
>> real accuracy. Mind you, he's a white British kid with no major pain
>> in his soul.
Me(kay):
>Why do some people have *no* sense of rhythm?
>(Nothing specific about your kid, Hatpin ... I'm wondering in general, cause I
know a couple people who couldn't keep a beat in a cage.)
JohnHatpin:
>I've wondered about this a lot over the years, and come to no useful
>conclusions. I'd guess there's a lot of research that could be done
>in this area, but it's not being done because the obvious question
>sounds racially divisive, to whit:
>Why do so many four-year-old black kids dance so well when most of us
>honkies can't find the beat, let alone move to it?
>Of course, there are many exceptions to the rule, but empirical
>observation suggests a correlation.
I'm no help...all I can think of is Steve Martin's feet sticking out from under
the covers, rocking to L Welk.
The AFCA Kid
Well, to start, I think music is a much much much bigger part of the black
experience than it is for whites. How many of you spent six, seven, eight hours
in church every sunday, and maybe another night or two during the week, growing
up, listening to vocal and instrumental groups, and being actively encouraged
to join same?
Lesmond
>Lesmond wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:38:02 +0000, John Hatpin wrote:
>>>
>>>It came out very, very much as an update on the old anecdote (which I
>>>naively believe to be true) of a chimpanzee whose abstract art was
>>>exhibited anonymously, to the adulation of high-profile art critics.
>>>They were then introduced to the simian painter, and thus publicly
>>>humiliated. ISTR this formed the basis of a horror movie, too.
>>>
>>
>>It was a segment of the anthology film "Dr. Terror's House of Horrors."
>
>Thanks - I wouldn't have got that. And the simian artist anecdote
>itself - is it truth or myth?
You got me on that one...
Dana Carpender
Well, in my husband's case, he's been an engineer for a decade or so,
but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
simple life-choice, don't you know?
--
Dana W. Carpender
Author, How I Gave Up My Low Fat Diet -- And Lost Forty Pounds!
http://www.holdthetoast.com
Check out our FREE Low Carb Ezine!
Bob Ward
wrote:
>-:
>-:
>-:osmium wrote:
>-:>
>-:> Dutch Courage wrote:
>-:>
>-:> > When I was an engineer, I used to tell the doctor at the building I could
>-:> pass
>-:> > myself off as a doctor simply by perscribing vicodan to anyone who walked
>-:> in
>-:> > the door, and he agreed that would work in 90% of the cases.
>-:>
>-:> All right, I give up. How does one cease being an engineer? Is there some
>-:> new operation in Denmark I haven't heard about? Does it involve drilling
>-:> holes in the head?
>-:
>-:Well, in my husband's case, he's been an engineer for a decade or so,
>-:but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
>-:simple life-choice, don't you know?
Well, yes, but being a sanitary engineer doesn't require any
degrees...
--
This space left intentionally blank
The AFCA Kid
Sean Houtman
>
>Well, in my husband's case, he's been an engineer for a decade or so,
>but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
>simple life-choice, don't you know?
>
Mmm-hmmm, and on his third day on the job at the local branch, when he designs
some new device to help organize books, he will find that he is still an
engineer.
Sean
--
Visit my photolog page; http://members.aol.com/grommit383/myhomepage
Last updated 01-16-02 with 46 pictures of petroglyphs added.
Address mungled. To email, please spite my face.
Dana Carpender
Sean Houtman wrote:
>
> From: Dana Carpender dcar...@kiva.net
>
> >
> >Well, in my husband's case, he's been an engineer for a decade or so,
> >but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
> >simple life-choice, don't you know?
> >
>
> Mmm-hmmm, and on his third day on the job at the local branch, when he designs
> some new device to help organize books, he will find that he is still an
> engineer.
>
>
Oh, he'll always be an engineer, it's in his bones. In fact, it
wouldn't surprise me if he ended up designing library automation
software, or some other job that combines his CE skills with his MLS.
osmium
news:3CA4BEF5...@kiva.net...
>
>
> Sean Houtman wrote:
> >
> > From: Dana Carpender dcar...@kiva.net
> >
> > >
> > >Well, in my husband's case, he's been an engineer for a decade or so,
> > >but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
> > >simple life-choice, don't you know?
> > >
> >
> > Mmm-hmmm, and on his third day on the job at the local branch, when he
designs
> > some new device to help organize books, he will find that he is still an
> > engineer.
> >
> >
>
> Oh, he'll always be an engineer, it's in his bones. In fact, it
> wouldn't surprise me if he ended up designing library automation
> software, or some other job that combines his CE skills with his MLS.
Which was exactly my point! Unless you extract significant portions of the
brain, an engineer will *always* be an engineer. How he earns his living is
an entirely different matter. DC said "When I was an engineer". Was is
past tense. DC is, AFAIK, still alive. From the response I suspect DC does
not know of the adventures of Christine Jorgenson in Denmark.
But, as has been pointed out, Sanitary Engineers are different.
The AFCA Kid
>
>"Dana Carpender" <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote in message
>news:3CA4BEF5...@kiva.net...
>>
>>
>> Sean Houtman wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Dana Carpender dcar...@kiva.net
>> >
>> > >
>> > >Well, in my husband's case, he's been an engineer for a decade or so,
>> > >but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
>> > >simple life-choice, don't you know?
>> > >
>> >
>> > Mmm-hmmm, and on his third day on the job at the local branch, when he
>designs
>> > some new device to help organize books, he will find that he is still an
>> > engineer.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Oh, he'll always be an engineer, it's in his bones. In fact, it
>> wouldn't surprise me if he ended up designing library automation
>> software, or some other job that combines his CE skills with his MLS.
>
>Which was exactly my point!
Oh, huh. I dunno about that, anyway.
> Unless you extract significant portions of the
>brain, an engineer will *always* be an engineer. How he earns his living is
>an entirely different matter
Ehhh..
>. DC said "When I was an engineer". Was is
>past tense.
Right, I'm not an engineer anymore.
> DC is, AFAIK, still alive. From the response I suspect DC does
>not know of the adventures of Christine Jorgenson in Denmark.
What the hell does that have to do with anything?
>
>But, as has been pointed out, Sanitary Engineers are different.
You know, I dunno...I don't think about fighting with the boiler anymore.
The AFCA Kid
>
>Sean Houtman wrote:
>>
>> From: Dana Carpender dcar...@kiva.net
>>
>> >
>> >Well, in my husband's case, he's been an engineer for a decade or so,
>> >but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
>> >simple life-choice, don't you know?
>> >
>>
>> Mmm-hmmm, and on his third day on the job at the local branch, when he
>designs
>> some new device to help organize books, he will find that he is still an
>> engineer.
>>
>>
>
>Oh, he'll always be an engineer, it's in his bones.
Oh, huh, what kind of an engineer is he?
> In fact, it
>wouldn't surprise me if he ended up designing library automation
>software, or some other job that combines his CE skills with his MLS.
What's library automation got to do with chemical engineering?
Dana Carpender
The AFCA Kid wrote:
>
> Dana Carpender dcar...@kiva.net writes:
>
> >
> >Sean Houtman wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Dana Carpender dcar...@kiva.net
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Well, in my husband's case, he's been an engineer for a decade or so,
> >> >but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
> >> >simple life-choice, don't you know?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Mmm-hmmm, and on his third day on the job at the local branch, when he
> >designs
> >> some new device to help organize books, he will find that he is still an
> >> engineer.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Oh, he'll always be an engineer, it's in his bones.
>
> Oh, huh, what kind of an engineer is he?
EE/CE -- Electrical and computer engineering. For a long time his
specialty was test engineering -- he wrote the software that let
computers test various electronic components. Right now, while he's
going to school, he's a part time network administrator for the biggest
Civil Engineering firm in town, and also working part time on a digital
library project, to get experience toward his new degree.
>
> > In fact, it
> >wouldn't surprise me if he ended up designing library automation
> >software, or some other job that combines his CE skills with his MLS.
>
> What's library automation got to do with chemical engineering?
Doesn't. Computer engineering. But I can see why you'd think that.
GrapeApe
>>> >but is now going to school to become a librarian. Rather a matter of a
>>> >simple life-choice, don't you know?
>>> >
>>>
>>> Mmm-hmmm, and on his third day on the job at the local branch, when he
>>designs
>>> some new device to help organize books, he will find that he is still an
>>> engineer.
Most engineers I have known have been naturally well organized people,
everything in its place (this doesn't count computer science engineers, or any
one sitting and typing into a computer considering themselves an engineer, just
the ones whose job description includes modification of physical objects.
Greg Goss
>Oh, he'll always be an engineer, it's in his bones. In fact, it
>wouldn't surprise me if he ended up designing library automation
>software, or some other job that combines his CE skills with his MLS.
There aren't enough acronyms to go around. When I see that sentence I
think of a realtor with a palm pilot clone.
http://www.mls.ca/mls/home.asp
www.microsoft.com/windowsce
--
"If the Gods Had Meant Us to Vote They Would Have Given Us Candidates" (Jim Hightower)
John Hatpin
>Dana Carpender <dcar...@kiva.net> wrote:
>
>>Oh, he'll always be an engineer, it's in his bones. In fact, it
>>wouldn't surprise me if he ended up designing library automation
>>software, or some other job that combines his CE skills with his MLS.
>
>There aren't enough acronyms to go around. When I see that sentence I
>think of a realtor with a palm pilot clone.
>
>http://www.mls.ca/mls/home.asp
>www.microsoft.com/windowsce
Funny, I was playing a game with my kids this afternoon. They'd think
of two random letters, and I had to think of their meaning as a real,
accepted acronym. I could get about half, I think, and I'm not good
at this stuff.
Them: BT
Me: British Telecom
Them: TB
Me: Tuberculosis
Them: DY
Me: Ermmm... no, next?
Them: FO
Me: Foreign Office
Them: DF
Me: Disk Free (a UNIX command)
Them: ZW
Me: Hmm. Nope.
... and so on. It must be such fun being a junior Hatpin. Real
barrel of laughs, Daddy is.
Estron
> Times like this, I ought to put Mrs Hatpin on the keyboard.
In the way (Sir) Paul McCartney put his?
--
All opinions expressed herein are only that.
Pax vobiscum.
est...@tfs.net
Kansas City, Missouri
John Hatpin
>Previously in alt.fan.cecil-adams, John Hatpin wrote:
>
>> Times like this, I ought to put Mrs Hatpin on the keyboard.
>
>In the way (Sir) Paul McCartney put his?
Well, I tried, and she had the ability, but not the perseverance.
When I tried to teach her, I taught her a G scale, and she said "so,
if I started on D, it would be like this?" and played a perfect D
scale, with the C# in the right place, and then (IIRC) a perfect Eb
scale. Frightening.
Actually, she's a damned good singer (although a little quiet and
out-of-practice), and on the type of keyboard I *meant*, she can wipe
the floor with me - she teaches typing, among many other things.
God, I love that woman.
--
John "14 years last month" Hatpin
GrapeApe
>Well, I tried, and she had the ability, but not the perseverance.
>When I tried to teach her, I taught her a G scale, and she said "so,
>if I started on D, it would be like this?" and played a perfect D
>scale, with the C# in the right place, and then (IIRC) a perfect Eb
>scale. Frightening.
Actually I consider it frightening that that isn't introduced to more music
students as early as you have chosen to. Because a lot of people have the ear,
and can jump leaps and bounds with the right sprinkling of theory. She will
probably pick up on chord formation as easily, as well as other scales.
Instead, an incredible amount of musical teaching is centered on sight reading,
which many of the best musicians I know, still can't do that well. And there
are those that are great if there is a score in front of them, and totally lost
otherwise... I'm not sure I understand why that is.
Even Sight reading could have gone better for me if some simple theory was
given to me, such as "See, it goes up, a step or a half step according to its
position... if the notes are spaced like this, it makes a chord..."
Instead, I was seeing, as taught..
Note on scale. Count lines.. every good boy does fine... Hmm. G sharp. Hit G
sharp key. Next note. Count lines.. every good boy does fine, hmm. A.
Fred Simons
"GrapeApe" <grap...@aol.comjunk> wrote in message
news:20020405163220...@mb-md.aol.com...
>...And there are those that are great if there is a score in front of them,
and totally lost
> otherwise... I'm not sure I understand why that is.
Well, for me at least, I think it's just that I am so strongly visually
oriented. If you -really- want me to understand it, draw me a picture.
I like music, and I can noodle on my trumpet, and I sing in the choir, but
it's really only when I can -see- the notes and everything that I can really
understand what's supposed to be going on and take a realistic stab at
reproducing it.
Fred Simons
GrapeApe
>>...And there are those that are great if there is a score in front of them,
>and totally lost
>> otherwise... I'm not sure I understand why that is.
>
>Well, for me at least, I think it's just that I am so strongly visually
>oriented. If you -really- want me to understand it, draw me a picture.
>I like music, and I can noodle on my trumpet, and I sing in the choir, but
>it's really only when I can -see- the notes and everything that I can really
>understand what's supposed to be going on and take a realistic stab at
>reproducing it.
I think it is training. I have talked to people who play in orchestras
professionally, that are totally lost without the score, and if you whistled a
tune for them to play, they would look at you like you were from Mars.
They say they see the notes, and their fingers move. It is almost as if it is
bypassing any consciousness.
Randy Poe
wrote:
I took piano lessons for a lot of years and had a talent for
sight-reading. This is my experience. There is no conscious
process between looking at a page and moving my fingers to
play the notes. I can slop through almost anything and get a
sense for how it sounds. This actually held me BACK in my
technique, because it was not until I was an adult that I
figured out the way I was actually sounding was not what I
was hearing in my head, and what it really meant to
practice.
The talent works out well for rehearsal stuff, where people
can just drop a score on me and I'll get through about as
well as (for instance) the singers. But I've had the
experience where it was just a little too hard to cover all
four vocal parts, and the director told me I could leave out
the tenor line or something. That made it actually HARDER,
to consciously try to edit out notes I was looking at on the
fly.
I can not do diddly-squat with a fake book, which consists
of a melody line and chord notation. Nor can I do what every
garage-band keyboardist seems to be able to do in their
sleep, change keys: "OK, let's do that again, but in E." Nor
can I jam. Nor can I hear something, even a single chord
(unless it's a really basic triad or 7th), and reproduce it
without a lot of trial and error.
- Randy
Fred Simons
"GrapeApe" <grap...@aol.comjunk> wrote in message
Could be. Singing is a bit different, of course, but what you've described
there is exactly what it's like for me playing the trumpet. I can
sight-read semi-decently, but I'd never make a jazz player, couldn't
improvise to save my life.
Fred Simons