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Moore, Oklohoma a lot less OK
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Snidely
May 21, 2013, 12:44:45 AM5/21/13
to
An EF-4 level tornado has snuffed at least 51 lives, many of them
children, in and around Oklahoma City. The suburb of Moore was
particularly hard hit.
One of many reports:
<http://www.voanews.com/content/51-dead-as-massive-tornado-hits-oklahoma/1665011.html>
One of the radio clips I heard was a woman and her children who had
sheltered in their bathtub, which is about the only part of the house
that didn't disappear.
What can you say after something like this?
/dps
--
Ieri, oggi, domani
children, in and around Oklahoma City. The suburb of Moore was
particularly hard hit.
One of many reports:
<http://www.voanews.com/content/51-dead-as-massive-tornado-hits-oklahoma/1665011.html>
One of the radio clips I heard was a woman and her children who had
sheltered in their bathtub, which is about the only part of the house
that didn't disappear.
What can you say after something like this?
/dps
--
Ieri, oggi, domani
BillTurlock
May 21, 2013, 1:08:16 AM5/21/13
to
On Mon, 20 May 2013 21:44:45 -0700, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>What can you say after something like this?
shit!
wrote:
>
>What can you say after something like this?
bill van
May 21, 2013, 1:33:43 AM5/21/13
to
In article <mn.a5187dd5fddbb172.127094@snitoo>,
In the past hour, there are reports of 40 more dead.
bill
bill
David J. Martin
May 21, 2013, 11:02:51 AM5/21/13
to
children.
David
Greg Goss
May 21, 2013, 3:41:02 PM5/21/13
to
In earthquake country, building codes specify how a house responds to
shaking. In areas with significant rainfall, plot drainage is
specified. Everywhere, fire resistance and electrical standards are
specified.
Should building codes in "Tornado Alley" specify some kind of
stormproof shelter? The reporter on today's radio interview mentioned
that such a shelter would cost about $4000, and that he'd lived in
Moore for four years now without getting one, but he would be speaking
to a contractor tomorrow. $4000 is a fair-sized chunk of money, but
it's only a minor chunk of the price of a house.
What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
shaking. In areas with significant rainfall, plot drainage is
specified. Everywhere, fire resistance and electrical standards are
specified.
Should building codes in "Tornado Alley" specify some kind of
stormproof shelter? The reporter on today's radio interview mentioned
that such a shelter would cost about $4000, and that he'd lived in
Moore for four years now without getting one, but he would be speaking
to a contractor tomorrow. $4000 is a fair-sized chunk of money, but
it's only a minor chunk of the price of a house.
What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Tim Wright
May 21, 2013, 4:18:52 PM5/21/13
to
the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
--
Trying to understand the behavior of some people is like trying to smell
the color nine.
Tim W
Paul Ciszek
May 21, 2013, 10:56:59 PM5/21/13
to
In article <r5idnYohacMvSwbM...@supernews.com>,
Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
>>
>There are builders which will install a concrete storm proof shelter in
>the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
>that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
Apparently much of Oklahoma suffers from soil and even bedrock conditions
>>
>> What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
>>
>There are builders which will install a concrete storm proof shelter in
>the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
>that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
that make an open underground structure such as a cellar unwise.
--
"Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS
crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in
TARP money, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in
bonuses, and paid no taxes? Yeah, me neither."
Tim Wright
May 21, 2013, 11:27:52 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/21/2013 9:56 PM, Paul Ciszek wrote:
> In article <r5idnYohacMvSwbM...@supernews.com>,
> Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
>>>
>> There are builders which will install a concrete storm proof shelter in
>> the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
>> that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
>
> Apparently much of Oklahoma suffers from soil and even bedrock conditions
> that make an open underground structure such as a cellar unwise.
>
This pic,
> In article <r5idnYohacMvSwbM...@supernews.com>,
> Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
>>>
>> There are builders which will install a concrete storm proof shelter in
>> the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
>> that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
>
> Apparently much of Oklahoma suffers from soil and even bedrock conditions
> that make an open underground structure such as a cellar unwise.
>
<https://www.findfarmcredit.com/assets/articles/sum11-seemore-storm-shelter8.jpg>
http://tinyurl.com/m8ymhpy
from this site,
<https://www.findfarmcredit.com/farm-credit-bank-landscapes_2.aspx?cat_id=x&doc_id=246>
http://tinyurl.com/mjjaofj
is what I was talking about.
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
May 21, 2013, 10:32:01 PM5/21/13
to
On 05/21/2013 12:41 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
> In earthquake country, building codes specify how a house responds to
> shaking. In areas with significant rainfall, plot drainage is
> specified. Everywhere, fire resistance and electrical standards are
> specified.
>
> Should building codes in "Tornado Alley" specify some kind of
> stormproof shelter? The reporter on today's radio interview mentioned
> that such a shelter would cost about $4000, and that he'd lived in
> Moore for four years now without getting one, but he would be speaking
> to a contractor tomorrow. $4000 is a fair-sized chunk of money, but
> it's only a minor chunk of the price of a house.
It is a bigger chunk of the price of a "mobile" home.
> In earthquake country, building codes specify how a house responds to
> shaking. In areas with significant rainfall, plot drainage is
> specified. Everywhere, fire resistance and electrical standards are
> specified.
>
> Should building codes in "Tornado Alley" specify some kind of
> stormproof shelter? The reporter on today's radio interview mentioned
> that such a shelter would cost about $4000, and that he'd lived in
> Moore for four years now without getting one, but he would be speaking
> to a contractor tomorrow. $4000 is a fair-sized chunk of money, but
> it's only a minor chunk of the price of a house.
What do you get for $4000? I've been in some storm shelters, and while
better than a tree house I don't know that I'd expect to survive what
happened to Moore in one of them.
Xho
Paul Ciszek
May 22, 2013, 1:31:11 AM5/22/13
to
In article <knhhlm$5r7$5...@dont-email.me>,
essentially. You'd be better off inside one than not inside one.
For mobile home parks, "community shelters" have been suggested.
bill van
May 22, 2013, 3:30:37 AM5/22/13
to
In article <knhc5r$kmr$3...@reader1.panix.com>,
wonder why people choose to live there, and especially why many of them
live in wood-frame houses or trailer parks in tornado alley. Far as I
can tell, it's because of a sometimes-fatal combination of too few
economic resources, not enough education and too much religion.
I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to complain.
But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out of there
right quick.
bill
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> In article <r5idnYohacMvSwbM...@supernews.com>,
> Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
> >>
> >There are builders which will install a concrete storm proof shelter in
> >the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
> >that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
>
> Apparently much of Oklahoma suffers from soil and even bedrock conditions
> that make an open underground structure such as a cellar unwise.
Whenever there's a bad tornado in an area that's prone to tornadoes, I
> In article <r5idnYohacMvSwbM...@supernews.com>,
> Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
> >>
> >There are builders which will install a concrete storm proof shelter in
> >the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
> >that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
>
> Apparently much of Oklahoma suffers from soil and even bedrock conditions
> that make an open underground structure such as a cellar unwise.
wonder why people choose to live there, and especially why many of them
live in wood-frame houses or trailer parks in tornado alley. Far as I
can tell, it's because of a sometimes-fatal combination of too few
economic resources, not enough education and too much religion.
I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to complain.
But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out of there
right quick.
bill
BillTurlock
May 22, 2013, 4:04:03 AM5/22/13
to
Oh, and "OklAhoma"
Hactar
May 22, 2013, 8:59:13 AM5/22/13
to
In article <knhl6u$rjk$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
breeze blocks?
> For mobile home parks, "community shelters" have been suggested.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
LIBRA: A big promotion is just around the corner for someone
much more talented than you. Laughter is the very best medicine,
remember that when your appendix bursts next week. -- Weird Al
Paul Ciszek <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> In article <knhhlm$5r7$5...@dont-email.me>,
> Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On 05/21/2013 12:41 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
> >>
> >> Should building codes in "Tornado Alley" specify some kind of
> >> stormproof shelter? The reporter on today's radio interview mentioned
> >> that such a shelter would cost about $4000, and that he'd lived in
> >> Moore for four years now without getting one, but he would be speaking
> >> to a contractor tomorrow. $4000 is a fair-sized chunk of money, but
> >> it's only a minor chunk of the price of a house.
> >
> >It is a bigger chunk of the price of a "mobile" home.
> >
> >What do you get for $4000? I've been in some storm shelters, and while
> >better than a tree house I don't know that I'd expect to survive what
> >happened to Moore in one of them.
>
> Someone else has posted links to some pictures. Concrete "boxes"
> essentially. You'd be better off inside one than not inside one.
Made of blocks, not poured slabs. Are the blocks even solid, or are they
>
> In article <knhhlm$5r7$5...@dont-email.me>,
> Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On 05/21/2013 12:41 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
> >>
> >> Should building codes in "Tornado Alley" specify some kind of
> >> stormproof shelter? The reporter on today's radio interview mentioned
> >> that such a shelter would cost about $4000, and that he'd lived in
> >> Moore for four years now without getting one, but he would be speaking
> >> to a contractor tomorrow. $4000 is a fair-sized chunk of money, but
> >> it's only a minor chunk of the price of a house.
> >
> >It is a bigger chunk of the price of a "mobile" home.
> >
> >What do you get for $4000? I've been in some storm shelters, and while
> >better than a tree house I don't know that I'd expect to survive what
> >happened to Moore in one of them.
>
> Someone else has posted links to some pictures. Concrete "boxes"
> essentially. You'd be better off inside one than not inside one.
breeze blocks?
> For mobile home parks, "community shelters" have been suggested.
--
LIBRA: A big promotion is just around the corner for someone
much more talented than you. Laughter is the very best medicine,
remember that when your appendix bursts next week. -- Weird Al
Greg Goss
May 22, 2013, 10:30:46 AM5/22/13
to
BillTurlock wrote:
>Oh, and "OklAhoma"
It's my thread. And I know better. But my fingers no longer spell
what I have in mind. Sigh.
>Oh, and "OklAhoma"
It's my thread. And I know better. But my fingers no longer spell
what I have in mind. Sigh.
Tim Wright
May 22, 2013, 10:47:13 AM5/22/13
to
know when one is likely, can follow the approaching storm and generally
have time to take cover. There is no radar for earthquakes.
Dover Beach
May 22, 2013, 12:32:53 PM5/22/13
to
bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote in
news:billvan-06DEA0...@news.shawcable.net:
alley, you know there will be tornadoes, but they don't hit *your* house
every year. You can convince yourself, and with some reason, that the
fact that there will be tornadoes in your area doesn't mean *you'll* be
hit. They're surprisingly localized.
Tim W. points out that he lives in tornado alley, and so does Mike Muth,
and several other people here who aren't poor, uneducated, and
dopily-religious, though they might be religious. If you rule out
chunks of the Mid-west and South, you start to run out of affordable and
otherwise-pleasant places to live.
news:billvan-06DEA0...@news.shawcable.net:
>
> Whenever there's a bad tornado in an area that's prone to tornadoes, I
> wonder why people choose to live there, and especially why many of
> them live in wood-frame houses or trailer parks in tornado alley. Far
> as I can tell, it's because of a sometimes-fatal combination of too
> few economic resources, not enough education and too much religion.
>
> I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
> mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
> If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to
> complain. But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out
> of there right quick.
>
I think there's more to it than that, bill. When you live in tornado
> Whenever there's a bad tornado in an area that's prone to tornadoes, I
> wonder why people choose to live there, and especially why many of
> them live in wood-frame houses or trailer parks in tornado alley. Far
> as I can tell, it's because of a sometimes-fatal combination of too
> few economic resources, not enough education and too much religion.
>
> I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
> mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
> If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to
> complain. But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out
> of there right quick.
>
alley, you know there will be tornadoes, but they don't hit *your* house
every year. You can convince yourself, and with some reason, that the
fact that there will be tornadoes in your area doesn't mean *you'll* be
hit. They're surprisingly localized.
Tim W. points out that he lives in tornado alley, and so does Mike Muth,
and several other people here who aren't poor, uneducated, and
dopily-religious, though they might be religious. If you rule out
chunks of the Mid-west and South, you start to run out of affordable and
otherwise-pleasant places to live.
BillTurlock
May 22, 2013, 3:06:41 PM5/22/13
to
On Wed, 22 May 2013 09:47:13 -0500, Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>>
>I am a resident of tornado alley. At least with tornados you generally
>know when one is likely, can follow the approaching storm and generally
>have time to take cover. There is no radar for earthquakes.
I've been present for both. The Omaha May '75 US
largest-damage-tornado-to-date, and the '89 Loma Prieta in N. Calif.
I'll take N. Calif over Omaha any time, TYVM.
wrote:
>
>>
>I am a resident of tornado alley. At least with tornados you generally
>know when one is likely, can follow the approaching storm and generally
>have time to take cover. There is no radar for earthquakes.
largest-damage-tornado-to-date, and the '89 Loma Prieta in N. Calif.
I'll take N. Calif over Omaha any time, TYVM.
BillTurlock
May 22, 2013, 3:07:41 PM5/22/13
to
On Wed, 22 May 2013 08:30:46 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>BillTurlock wrote:
>
>>Oh, and "OklAhoma"
>
>It's my thread. And I know better. But my fingers no longer spell
>what I have in mind. Sigh.
BTDT. But I'll still note tyops.
>BillTurlock wrote:
>
>>Oh, and "OklAhoma"
>
>It's my thread. And I know better. But my fingers no longer spell
>what I have in mind. Sigh.
Hactar
May 22, 2013, 5:01:20 PM5/22/13
to
In article <XnsA1C86B5864C50mo...@130.133.4.11>,
I have some relatives that live in the Four Corners area (Colorado
quadrant). I asked them about natural disasters, and they couldn't name
any that apply there, and gave the impression that they live in a
localized Utopia as far as that's concerned. Then, on asking them about
various features around there (snowblower trains, those long poles by
roads, steep roofs, etc) it came to light that they get oodles of snow
some years, enough to make vital roads impassable and do damage to some
buildings. Maybe it's just me, but I consider precipitation that
prevents travel for weeks on end, collapses roofs, and knocks out power
to be a natural disaster.
quadrant). I asked them about natural disasters, and they couldn't name
any that apply there, and gave the impression that they live in a
localized Utopia as far as that's concerned. Then, on asking them about
various features around there (snowblower trains, those long poles by
roads, steep roofs, etc) it came to light that they get oodles of snow
some years, enough to make vital roads impassable and do damage to some
buildings. Maybe it's just me, but I consider precipitation that
prevents travel for weeks on end, collapses roofs, and knocks out power
to be a natural disaster.
Lesmond
May 22, 2013, 11:43:14 PM5/22/13
to
On Wed, 22 May 2013 17:01:20 -0400, Hactar wrote:
>
>I have some relatives that live in the Four Corners area (Colorado
>quadrant). I asked them about natural disasters, and they couldn't name
>any that apply there, and gave the impression that they live in a
>localized Utopia as far as that's concerned. Then, on asking them about
>various features around there (snowblower trains, those long poles by
>roads, steep roofs, etc) it came to light that they get oodles of snow
>some years, enough to make vital roads impassable and do damage to some
>buildings. Maybe it's just me, but I consider precipitation that
>prevents travel for weeks on end, collapses roofs, and knocks out power
>to be a natural disaster.
I consider it to be a much deserved mandatory vacation.
>
>I have some relatives that live in the Four Corners area (Colorado
>quadrant). I asked them about natural disasters, and they couldn't name
>any that apply there, and gave the impression that they live in a
>localized Utopia as far as that's concerned. Then, on asking them about
>various features around there (snowblower trains, those long poles by
>roads, steep roofs, etc) it came to light that they get oodles of snow
>some years, enough to make vital roads impassable and do damage to some
>buildings. Maybe it's just me, but I consider precipitation that
>prevents travel for weeks on end, collapses roofs, and knocks out power
>to be a natural disaster.
--
If there's a nuclear winter, at least it'll snow.
Snidely
May 23, 2013, 2:40:55 AM5/23/13
to
After serious thinking BillTurlock wrote :
And I planted the seed. Even though I've seen the movie of the
musical.
/dps "nefarious, ain't I?"
--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
musical.
/dps "nefarious, ain't I?"
--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
Paul Ciszek
May 23, 2013, 9:18:14 AM5/23/13
to
In article <12su6a-...@pc.home>, Hactar <ebenZ...@verizon.net> wrote:
>In article <knhl6u$rjk$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>Paul Ciszek <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> In article <knhhlm$5r7$5...@dont-email.me>,
>> Xho Jingleheimerschmidt <xho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >What do you get for $4000? I've been in some storm shelters, and while
>> >better than a tree house I don't know that I'd expect to survive what
>> >happened to Moore in one of them.
>>
>> Someone else has posted links to some pictures. Concrete "boxes"
>> essentially. You'd be better off inside one than not inside one.
>
>Made of blocks, not poured slabs. Are the blocks even solid, or are they
>breeze blocks?
to me.
Paul Ciszek
May 23, 2013, 11:31:24 AM5/23/13
to
In article <0aov6a-...@pc.home>, Hactar <ebenZ...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>I have some relatives that live in the Four Corners area (Colorado
>quadrant). I asked them about natural disasters, and they couldn't name
>any that apply there, and gave the impression that they live in a
>localized Utopia as far as that's concerned. Then, on asking them about
>various features around there (snowblower trains, those long poles by
>roads, steep roofs, etc) it came to light that they get oodles of snow
>some years, enough to make vital roads impassable and do damage to some
>buildings. Maybe it's just me, but I consider precipitation that
>prevents travel for weeks on end, collapses roofs, and knocks out power
>to be a natural disaster.
Mississippi?) one of the major news outlets listed Michican as the least
disaster-prone state. I wondered what knocked Colorado out of the running,
and decided it was probably blizzards. Still, I'll take that over
tornados and earthquakes--you can prepare for blizzards.
N Jill Marsh
May 23, 2013, 12:36:41 PM5/23/13
to
On Wed, 22 May 2013 00:30:37 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
wrote:
>Whenever there's a bad tornado in an area that's prone to tornadoes, I
>wonder why people choose to live there, and especially why many of them
>live in wood-frame houses or trailer parks in tornado alley. Far as I
>can tell, it's because of a sometimes-fatal combination of too few
>economic resources, not enough education and too much religion.
No, it's just because people live in houses like that, and houses like
that don't hold up to extreme weather as well as some other kinds.
>I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
>mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
>If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to complain.
>But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out of there
>right quick.
I have some dozens of relatives that have grown up and still live in
tornado country, and most of them have never seen one, let alone been
affected negatively by one.
I grew up in what's sort of tornado country, for Canada, which isn't
anything like what Tornado Alley is. It's just severe weather, like
an ice storm, or flooding, or a hurricane, or even the threat of
seismic misbehaviour.
There's no safe place and you just live with it, it isn't any
different than getting on the road even though you're more likely to
get smacked driving to work than by a tornado.
--
nj"internym here"m
Send reggae, guns & numbers.
wrote:
>Whenever there's a bad tornado in an area that's prone to tornadoes, I
>wonder why people choose to live there, and especially why many of them
>live in wood-frame houses or trailer parks in tornado alley. Far as I
>can tell, it's because of a sometimes-fatal combination of too few
>economic resources, not enough education and too much religion.
that don't hold up to extreme weather as well as some other kinds.
>I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
>mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
>If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to complain.
>But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out of there
>right quick.
tornado country, and most of them have never seen one, let alone been
affected negatively by one.
I grew up in what's sort of tornado country, for Canada, which isn't
anything like what Tornado Alley is. It's just severe weather, like
an ice storm, or flooding, or a hurricane, or even the threat of
seismic misbehaviour.
There's no safe place and you just live with it, it isn't any
different than getting on the road even though you're more likely to
get smacked driving to work than by a tornado.
--
nj"internym here"m
Send reggae, guns & numbers.
John Mc.
May 23, 2013, 2:26:47 PM5/23/13
to
the house is a little cooler than SWMBO likes. This causes "huddling"
together for warmth at night. Heh, heh, heh.
John Mc.
Lesmond
May 23, 2013, 5:26:29 PM5/23/13
to
Hactar
May 23, 2013, 7:31:07 PM5/23/13
to
In article <yrfzbaqirevmbaar...@192.168.0.6>,
I put the router on one UPS, so that'll be powered unless I let the
computer drain it (yay wifi), but the one powering my bipap probably
won't last all night, which means I can't sleep here. Fortunately, most
power outages are on the order of a second or two (we're near a hospital
and a power station both), so I'm not too worried.
computer drain it (yay wifi), but the one powering my bipap probably
won't last all night, which means I can't sleep here. Fortunately, most
power outages are on the order of a second or two (we're near a hospital
and a power station both), so I'm not too worried.
Greg Goss
May 23, 2013, 8:37:34 PM5/23/13
to
the optional blower. (The fan to fit this fireplace is something like
$450. The entire fireplace without the fan is something like $800. A
surplus 120V computer case fan from Princess Auto was something like
$8. A pair of zip ties and plug the fan into the socket that's
already there.) So in a power outage, the gas fireplace would work,
but would produce minimal heat unless someone starts manually fanning
air through the plenum.
During an extended outage, would the gas fail after a couple of hours,
or does the gas company have backup generators at their pumping
stations?
Greg Goss
May 23, 2013, 8:44:49 PM5/23/13
to
ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar) wrote:
>I put the router on one UPS, so that'll be powered unless I let the
>computer drain it (yay wifi), but the one powering my bipap probably
>won't last all night, which means I can't sleep here. Fortunately, most
>power outages are on the order of a second or two (we're near a hospital
>and a power station both), so I'm not too worried.
I have a very small UPS on the equipment shelf in the furnace room.
>I put the router on one UPS, so that'll be powered unless I let the
>computer drain it (yay wifi), but the one powering my bipap probably
>won't last all night, which means I can't sleep here. Fortunately, most
>power outages are on the order of a second or two (we're near a hospital
>and a power station both), so I'm not too worried.
It powers the ADSL modem which includes WiFi and the VOIP box. But
the central wireless base for all our phones is not on that circuit.
So if we want home phone during a power outage, we need to go to a
very dark room in the basement to use our only wired phone. I've
never tested whether the wireless phone base station can work as a
wired phone without power - it might (on top of the fridge in the
kitchen).
Anyhow, the UPS can drive the WiFi for at least 20 minutes. That's as
much as we've tested.
My sleep breathing disorder results in sleep deprivation rather than
anything more dangerous. I can probably go a couple of days without
the CPAP.
The small UPS that runs our router was being flushed out of a local
clearance house for something like $12. I should have bought one for
the phone base and another for the bedroom (for the CPAP when I
discovered two years later that I needed a CPAP).
danny burstein
May 23, 2013, 8:57:36 PM5/23/13
to
In <b07rfq...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>The small UPS that runs our router was being flushed out of a local
>clearance house for something like $12. I should have bought one for
>the phone base and another for the bedroom (for the CPAP when I
>discovered two years later that I needed a CPAP).
The CPAP might, or might not... even work on off a standard
>The small UPS that runs our router was being flushed out of a local
>clearance house for something like $12. I should have bought one for
>the phone base and another for the bedroom (for the CPAP when I
>discovered two years later that I needed a CPAP).
commodity UPS.
The alternating current "wave form" coming from the utility
wires is that nice sinusiodal curve we know and love. However,
the output from many UPS'es is a "modified sine wave", or
basically, lots of chopped up step boxes.
While this usually does ok for low current electronics,
especially if they're using their own converters, it often causes
problems with motors. So if your CPAP is using line current
without rectification, etc., you might have problems..
- try plugging a standard (small) electric fan into
the UPS and you'll see what I mean.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Roy Smith
May 23, 2013, 8:53:57 PM5/23/13
to
years ago and lost power for about 16 hours. We never lost natural gas
flow. The priorities for the line repairs were given as major
substations, hospitals, then shopping centers. Housing was at the
bottom of the list. I don't know where other utilities fit into the
list but I would guess pretty high.
Your statement about minimal heat from a gas fireplace was very true.
The temperature in the room with the fireplace was only 2-3 degrees
above the rest of the house which was about 50 degrees fahrenheit. It
was below 20 degrees f outside for the duration.
Roy
Greg Goss
May 23, 2013, 9:44:30 PM5/23/13
to
"Roy Smith" <rsmi...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>Greg Goss wrote on 5/23/2013 at 8:37:34 PM:
>> My fireplace never produced much heat until I installed a kludge for
>> the optional blower. ... So in a power outage, the gas fireplace would work,
>Greg Goss wrote on 5/23/2013 at 8:37:34 PM:
>> My fireplace never produced much heat until I installed a kludge for
>> but would produce minimal heat unless someone starts manually fanning
>> air through the plenum.
>> air through the plenum.
>Your statement about minimal heat from a gas fireplace was very true.
>The temperature in the room with the fireplace was only 2-3 degrees
>above the rest of the house which was about 50 degrees fahrenheit. It
>was below 20 degrees f outside for the duration.
About an hour after the power stayed off, if it was sub-freezing
>The temperature in the room with the fireplace was only 2-3 degrees
>above the rest of the house which was about 50 degrees fahrenheit. It
>was below 20 degrees f outside for the duration.
outside, I would rig up something from cardboard boxes to make it
fairly easy to manually fan air through the heat-exchange plenum where
the fan would normally be running. I bet that would transfer a useful
amount of heat.
The last time we had an extended power outage (about three hours), I
fetched the pack of tea-light candles and lighter from under the seat
in my car, and had light scattered around the house. But it was
summer, so I never tested the fireplace as heater. And the time the
furnace went out, there was still power, so the fireplace fan pumped
lots of heat into the house.
Hactar
May 23, 2013, 10:19:45 PM5/23/13
to
In article <b07rfq...@mid.individual.net>,
wake up (temporarily?) stupid, or not wake up at all.
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar) wrote:
>
> >I put the router on one UPS, so that'll be powered unless I let the
> >computer drain it (yay wifi), but the one powering my bipap probably
> >won't last all night,
>
> ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar) wrote:
>
> >I put the router on one UPS, so that'll be powered unless I let the
> >computer drain it (yay wifi), but the one powering my bipap probably
> >won't last all night,
>
> Anyhow, the UPS can drive the WiFi for at least 20 minutes. That's as
> much as we've tested.
>
> My sleep breathing disorder results in sleep deprivation rather than
> anything more dangerous. I can probably go a couple of days without
> the CPAP.
Lucky you. In order of severity, I'll either wake up with a headache,
> much as we've tested.
>
> My sleep breathing disorder results in sleep deprivation rather than
> anything more dangerous. I can probably go a couple of days without
> the CPAP.
wake up (temporarily?) stupid, or not wake up at all.
Hactar
May 23, 2013, 10:15:25 PM5/23/13
to
In article <knmdu0$b94$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230985467489
Of course, maybe it wouldn't have worked for long, but power outages
typically don't last for long.
> The alternating current "wave form" coming from the utility
> wires is that nice sinusiodal curve we know and love. However,
> the output from many UPS'es is a "modified sine wave", or
> basically, lots of chopped up step boxes.
Yeah, it sucks. My dad tried daisy-chaining the UPSes once. Only let it
run for a few seconds due to the horrendous relay chattering from the
downstream one. Plus there was a "WTF is that noise?" from the other
room. It might have worked better the other way -- the downstream one
was nicer[1] and so might make a better waveform.
[1] Back when I lived at home, we had a brownout once. My UPS (the nicer
one) raised the voltage from 95 or whatever it was. Drew more
current that way, but totally within tolerance. His UPS didn't,
switched to battery/inverter, and depleted the battery in a matter
of minutes. This, boys and girls, is why it's sometimes worth it to
spend a bit more.
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> In <b07rfq...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>
> >The small UPS that runs our router was being flushed out of a local
> >clearance house for something like $12. I should have bought one for
> >the phone base and another for the bedroom (for the CPAP when I
> >discovered two years later that I needed a CPAP).
>
> The CPAP might, or might not... even work on off a standard
> commodity UPS.
Mine worked, and the UPS was one of these:
> In <b07rfq...@mid.individual.net> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>
> >The small UPS that runs our router was being flushed out of a local
> >clearance house for something like $12. I should have bought one for
> >the phone base and another for the bedroom (for the CPAP when I
> >discovered two years later that I needed a CPAP).
>
> The CPAP might, or might not... even work on off a standard
> commodity UPS.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230985467489
Of course, maybe it wouldn't have worked for long, but power outages
typically don't last for long.
> The alternating current "wave form" coming from the utility
> wires is that nice sinusiodal curve we know and love. However,
> the output from many UPS'es is a "modified sine wave", or
> basically, lots of chopped up step boxes.
run for a few seconds due to the horrendous relay chattering from the
downstream one. Plus there was a "WTF is that noise?" from the other
room. It might have worked better the other way -- the downstream one
was nicer[1] and so might make a better waveform.
[1] Back when I lived at home, we had a brownout once. My UPS (the nicer
one) raised the voltage from 95 or whatever it was. Drew more
current that way, but totally within tolerance. His UPS didn't,
switched to battery/inverter, and depleted the battery in a matter
of minutes. This, boys and girls, is why it's sometimes worth it to
spend a bit more.
Kevin
May 24, 2013, 3:01:52 AM5/24/13
to
On Tue, 21 May 2013 19:32:01 -0700, Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
>> In earthquake country, building codes specify how a house responds to
>> shaking. In areas with significant rainfall, plot drainage is
>> specified. Everywhere, fire resistance and electrical standards are
>> specified.
a length of galvanized steel drain pipe of six feet or so diameter,
dig a hole under your doublewide eight or ten feet or down to the
bedrock, whichever comes first, drop the galvanized pipe in, fill
around with concrete, and put the heaviest lid you could manage on it
flush with the ground, with big bolts into latches sunk in the
concrete. Then you cut a hole in the bottom of the doublewide so you
can just step down a ladder into it. Put a couple of lawn chairs and a
ladder down it, carry a flashlight and a radio, drill a few holes in
the lid for air, put a sump pump in with a hand backup.
One of my college fencing teammates moved to somewhere blowy, and
apparently had bedrock something like three feet down. He was renting,
but he got the landlord to agree to split costs with him, and he dug
down to the rock, then rolled a *concrete* culvert into the ditch thus
produced, but lengthwise, not vertically. He capped one end, built a
earth hill on either side, planted grass over the whole thing, and put
a heavy door on the door end. I saw pictures of it years ago, it
looked fine. Apparently the kids loved having a big long hill in the
backyard.
Neither of these is comfortable for a long time, but a tornado doesn't
go on for a long time. I think some of the large bids are coming from
people who want a basement, under the house, they can retreat into.
Well, ok, but that has to be engineered to hold up a god dammed house.
How about just a hole in the ground you can hide in, with a heavy
steel door?
--
Kevin
>> In earthquake country, building codes specify how a house responds to
>> shaking. In areas with significant rainfall, plot drainage is
>> specified. Everywhere, fire resistance and electrical standards are
>> specified.
>>
>> Should building codes in "Tornado Alley" specify some kind of
>> stormproof shelter? The reporter on today's radio interview mentioned
>> that such a shelter would cost about $4000, and that he'd lived in
>> Moore for four years now without getting one, but he would be speaking
>> to a contractor tomorrow. $4000 is a fair-sized chunk of money, but
>> it's only a minor chunk of the price of a house.
>
>It is a bigger chunk of the price of a "mobile" home.
>
>> Should building codes in "Tornado Alley" specify some kind of
>> stormproof shelter? The reporter on today's radio interview mentioned
>> that such a shelter would cost about $4000, and that he'd lived in
>> Moore for four years now without getting one, but he would be speaking
>> to a contractor tomorrow. $4000 is a fair-sized chunk of money, but
>> it's only a minor chunk of the price of a house.
>
>It is a bigger chunk of the price of a "mobile" home.
>
>What do you get for $4000? I've been in some storm shelters, and while
>better than a tree house I don't know that I'd expect to survive what
>happened to Moore in one of them.
The traditional really cheap method I've seen in north Texas is to get
>better than a tree house I don't know that I'd expect to survive what
>happened to Moore in one of them.
a length of galvanized steel drain pipe of six feet or so diameter,
dig a hole under your doublewide eight or ten feet or down to the
bedrock, whichever comes first, drop the galvanized pipe in, fill
around with concrete, and put the heaviest lid you could manage on it
flush with the ground, with big bolts into latches sunk in the
concrete. Then you cut a hole in the bottom of the doublewide so you
can just step down a ladder into it. Put a couple of lawn chairs and a
ladder down it, carry a flashlight and a radio, drill a few holes in
the lid for air, put a sump pump in with a hand backup.
One of my college fencing teammates moved to somewhere blowy, and
apparently had bedrock something like three feet down. He was renting,
but he got the landlord to agree to split costs with him, and he dug
down to the rock, then rolled a *concrete* culvert into the ditch thus
produced, but lengthwise, not vertically. He capped one end, built a
earth hill on either side, planted grass over the whole thing, and put
a heavy door on the door end. I saw pictures of it years ago, it
looked fine. Apparently the kids loved having a big long hill in the
backyard.
Neither of these is comfortable for a long time, but a tornado doesn't
go on for a long time. I think some of the large bids are coming from
people who want a basement, under the house, they can retreat into.
Well, ok, but that has to be engineered to hold up a god dammed house.
How about just a hole in the ground you can hide in, with a heavy
steel door?
--
Kevin
Richard R. Hershberger
May 24, 2013, 8:00:59 AM5/24/13
to
On May 22, 10:47 am, Tim Wright <tlwrigh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/22/2013 2:30 AM, bill van wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <knhc5r$km...@reader1.panix.com>,
> On 5/22/2013 2:30 AM, bill van wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
>
> >> In article <r5idnYohacMvSwbMnZ2dnUVZ_qudn...@supernews.com>,
> >> Tim Wright <tlwrigh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
>
> >>> There are builders which will install a concrete storm proof shelter in
> >>> the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
> >>> that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
>
> >> Apparently much of Oklahoma suffers from soil and even bedrock conditions
> >> that make an open underground structure such as a cellar unwise.
>
> > Whenever there's a bad tornado in an area that's prone to tornadoes, I
> > wonder why people choose to live there, and especially why many of them
> > live in wood-frame houses or trailer parks in tornado alley. Far as I
> > can tell, it's because of a sometimes-fatal combination of too few
> > economic resources, not enough education and too much religion.
>
> > I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
> > mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
> > If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to complain.
> > But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out of there
> > right quick.
>
> I am a resident of tornado alley. At least with tornados you generally
> know when one is likely, can follow the approaching storm and generally
> have time to take cover. There is no radar for earthquakes.
With earthquakes the likelihood of a truly major one happening is low,
>
> >>>> What are the kinds of things a building code should specify?
>
> >>> There are builders which will install a concrete storm proof shelter in
> >>> the house which would normally be used as a closet. As far as retrofit,
> >>> that would be a storm cellar, and $4k sounds about right.
>
> >> Apparently much of Oklahoma suffers from soil and even bedrock conditions
> >> that make an open underground structure such as a cellar unwise.
>
> > Whenever there's a bad tornado in an area that's prone to tornadoes, I
> > wonder why people choose to live there, and especially why many of them
> > live in wood-frame houses or trailer parks in tornado alley. Far as I
> > can tell, it's because of a sometimes-fatal combination of too few
> > economic resources, not enough education and too much religion.
>
> > I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
> > mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
> > If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to complain.
> > But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out of there
> > right quick.
>
> I am a resident of tornado alley. At least with tornados you generally
> know when one is likely, can follow the approaching storm and generally
> have time to take cover. There is no radar for earthquakes.
but when it does, the damage is widespread. With tornadoes the
likelihood of one happening within a tornado zone is high, but the
damage is restricted to a relatively small area. So either way, you
are playing reasonable odds. What gets me are the people who build
those nice million-dollar houses back in the hills of southern
California, surrounded by that picturesque chaparral. It is highly
likely that at some point within the owner's lifetime that property is
going to be incinerated. Back when I was living in California (going
on twenty years now: how did that happen?) the standard wisdom is
that you could usually protect the structure through aggressive and
constant scrub clearance beforehand, though that was expensive and/or
a lot a work, and made the property less picturesque. I gather that
this is less protection nowadays, as multi-year droughts become more
common.
Richard R. Hershberger
John Mc.
May 24, 2013, 8:49:49 AM5/24/13
to
itself for an hour every Sunday. This keeps the batteries that start it
fully charged. Only know it's running if you're near it when it starts.
John Mc.
Jorge
May 24, 2013, 9:06:42 AM5/24/13
to
In article <knmdn5$rd8$1...@dont-email.me>,
Fireplaces tend to pump any heated air up the flue.
what you want is a sealed unit getting it's incoming combustion air from
the outside.
Radiant heat is the best . heats the objects in the room not the air.
--
Karma ; what a concept!
what you want is a sealed unit getting it's incoming combustion air from
the outside.
Radiant heat is the best . heats the objects in the room not the air.
--
Karma ; what a concept!
BillTurlock
May 24, 2013, 3:58:49 PM5/24/13
to
On Fri, 24 May 2013 05:00:59 -0700 (PDT), "Richard R. Hershberger"
<rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>
>With earthquakes the likelihood of a truly major one happening is low,
>but when it does, the damage is widespread. With tornadoes the
>likelihood of one happening within a tornado zone is high, but the
>damage is restricted to a relatively small area. So either way, you
>are playing reasonable odds. What gets me are the people who build
>those nice million-dollar houses back in the hills of southern
>California, surrounded by that picturesque chaparral. It is highly
>likely that at some point within the owner's lifetime that property is
>going to be incinerated. Back when I was living in California (going
>on twenty years now: how did that happen?) the standard wisdom is
>that you could usually protect the structure through aggressive and
>constant scrub clearance beforehand, though that was expensive and/or
>a lot a work, and made the property less picturesque. I gather that
>this is less protection nowadays, as multi-year droughts become more
>common.
Two words: Tile roofs.
<rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>
>With earthquakes the likelihood of a truly major one happening is low,
>but when it does, the damage is widespread. With tornadoes the
>likelihood of one happening within a tornado zone is high, but the
>damage is restricted to a relatively small area. So either way, you
>are playing reasonable odds. What gets me are the people who build
>those nice million-dollar houses back in the hills of southern
>California, surrounded by that picturesque chaparral. It is highly
>likely that at some point within the owner's lifetime that property is
>going to be incinerated. Back when I was living in California (going
>on twenty years now: how did that happen?) the standard wisdom is
>that you could usually protect the structure through aggressive and
>constant scrub clearance beforehand, though that was expensive and/or
>a lot a work, and made the property less picturesque. I gather that
>this is less protection nowadays, as multi-year droughts become more
>common.
After the '91 Oakland hills fire, one of the most devistated areas was
Hiller Highlands. I drove throught it 2-3 weeks after, and the only
erect things you could see for miles was water heaters and chimneys.
Oh, and just one house still standing amid the wartime-Berlin-like
destruction; it had a tile roof!
Greg Goss
May 24, 2013, 11:28:49 PM5/24/13
to
BillTurlock wrote:
>>are playing reasonable odds. What gets me are the people who build
>>those nice million-dollar houses back in the hills of southern
>>California, surrounded by that picturesque chaparral. It is highly
>>likely that at some point within the owner's lifetime that property is
>>going to be incinerated. Back when I was living in California (going
>>on twenty years now: how did that happen?) the standard wisdom is
>>that you could usually protect the structure through aggressive and
>>constant scrub clearance beforehand, though that was expensive and/or
>>a lot a work, and made the property less picturesque. I gather that
>>this is less protection nowadays, as multi-year droughts become more
>>common.
>
>Two words: Tile roofs.
>
>After the '91 Oakland hills fire, one of the most devistated areas was
>Hiller Highlands. I drove throught it 2-3 weeks after, and the only
>erect things you could see for miles was water heaters and chimneys.
>
>Oh, and just one house still standing amid the wartime-Berlin-like
>destruction; it had a tile roof!
My sister lives above Kelowna among a dry rather scrubby pine forest.
>>are playing reasonable odds. What gets me are the people who build
>>those nice million-dollar houses back in the hills of southern
>>California, surrounded by that picturesque chaparral. It is highly
>>likely that at some point within the owner's lifetime that property is
>>going to be incinerated. Back when I was living in California (going
>>on twenty years now: how did that happen?) the standard wisdom is
>>that you could usually protect the structure through aggressive and
>>constant scrub clearance beforehand, though that was expensive and/or
>>a lot a work, and made the property less picturesque. I gather that
>>this is less protection nowadays, as multi-year droughts become more
>>common.
>
>Two words: Tile roofs.
>
>After the '91 Oakland hills fire, one of the most devistated areas was
>Hiller Highlands. I drove throught it 2-3 weeks after, and the only
>erect things you could see for miles was water heaters and chimneys.
>
>Oh, and just one house still standing amid the wartime-Berlin-like
>destruction; it had a tile roof!
In 2002, they had to evacuate twice as a lightning-launched fire
zigzagged its way towards them, changed direction, then changed again.
The following summer, about several of her neighbors re-roofed with
aluminum. There isn't the thermal inertia of ceramic, but it's still
fire resistant (unless you get above a certain temperature). It's
less likely to respond to a burning pine cone than ashphalt shingles.
Eric didn't reroof the house, but he got a Honda generator to go in
the pump house. In 2002, he left a lawn sprinkler on the roof to keep
it moist and less ignitable. But the fire would have approached along
the road with their power, and the sprinkler would be off by the time
the fire got there. And a generator stores nicely under the sink in
their camping trailer for summer trips.
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
May 23, 2013, 12:39:32 AM5/23/13
to
On 05/22/2013 12:30 AM, bill van wrote:
>
> I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
> mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
> If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to complain.
> But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out of there
> right quick.
I think the mega-quake will leave a swath more than one mile wide.
>
> I know, I live in a place that sooner or later is going to have a
> mega-earthquake. But that's once every 500 years, not every damn year.
> If the Big One happens in my lifetime, I won't have reason to complain.
> But if I found myself living in a tornado zone, I'd be out of there
> right quick.
Xho
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