More on naming children
John Hatpin
"Teachers spot trouble in a name"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
"Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
looking at their names, a survey suggests.
The poll of 3,000 teachers found more than one in three expected
pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
were among some of the ones to watch. [...]
The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
brainiest names."
Any similarity with the situation LeftPondSide vis-a-vis names?
--
John Hatpin
http://uninformedcomment.wordpress.com/
Arthur
<RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>
> "Teachers spot trouble in a name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>
> "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>
> The poll of 3,000 teachers found more than one in three expected
> pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
>
> Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
> were among some of the ones to watch. [...]
Chardonnay? I'll bet the other children treat her(?) Chablis.
But if she befriends Jack, you can have wine and cheese.
Richard R. Hershberger
<RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
That list seems pretty random to me on both counts (other than the
name "Rebecca" being a sure sign of genius, of course). My guess is
that these are class markers. The "smart"names seem to be traditional
English Christian names, while the "ones to watch" are, with the
exception of "Jack", Irish or non-traditional. Names corellate to
class in the U.S. as well, but not the same names. I have been told,
for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in Britain, while
it holds no such association here.
Richard R. Hershberger
Les Albert
<rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>On Sep 8, 9:43�am, John Hatpin
><RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
>> (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>> "Teachers spot trouble in a name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>> "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
>> looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>> The poll of 3,000 teachers found more than one in three expected
>> pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
>> Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
>> were among some of the ones to watch. [...]
>> The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
>> be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
>> Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
>> brainiest names."
>> Any similarity with the situation LeftPondSide vis-a-vis names?
>That list seems pretty random to me on both counts (other than the
>name "Rebecca" being a sure sign of genius, of course). My guess is
>that these are class markers. The "smart"names seem to be traditional
>English Christian names, while the "ones to watch" are, with the
>exception of "Jack", Irish or non-traditional. Names corellate to
>class in the U.S. as well, but not the same names. I have been told,
>for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in Britain, while
>it holds no such association here.
What are some of the names that indicate upper and lower class in the
U.S.?
Les
Boron Elgar
wrote:
Have you ever met a kid named "Trailer Trash"?
Boron
Mr C
It was a meme at my old, old school to keep an eye on kids whose names
started with "J".
Sorry, John.
Mr C
Mr C
> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 07:56:50 -0700, Les Albert <lalbe...@aol.com>
Mr C
Boron Elgar
wrote:
G, for "Glorious," because my mom said having me was such a glorious
experience (that is from a friend of mine who met this student while
substitute teaching).
Boron
Les Albert
>>> Have you ever met a kid named "Trailer Trash"?
>>Middle initial?
>G, for "Glorious," because my mom said having me was such a glorious
>experience (that is from a friend of mine who met this student while
>substitute teaching).
So the student's full name was Trailer Glorious Trash?
Les
Les Albert
>Have you ever met a kid named "Trailer Trash"?
Yes, but he lived in a double-wide trailer, so he was considered upper
class in the trailer park.
Les
Richard R. Hershberger
Look at the names of the children and grandchildren of the Palin
family for lower class (which, to point out the obvious, is distinct
from "poor"). Upper class is trickier, if only because defining
"upper class" in the U.S. context is tricky. I don't know what the
scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
nowadays. If forced to guess, mine would be that they largely stick
to traditional English Christian names.
Richard R. Hershberger
Veronique
I'm too lazy to do it myself, but what are the first names of the
Fortune 500 CEOs? Or the regents of the UC system?
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
Les Albert
The UC regents have no unusual names except for Oddessa Johnson and
Hadi Makarechian. All the other names are plain vanilla:
www.universityofcalifornia.edu/regents/contact.html
Les
Hactar
> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
> >
> > "Teachers spot trouble in a
> name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
> >
> > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
lunar cycles sometime.
> I have been told, for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in
> Britain, while it holds no such association here.
So in the song "I Ain't Sharin' Sharon", what can we assume about the
(presumably Australian) Sharon?
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I'm not sure about the former." -- Albert Einstein
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 11:28:05 -0400, Boron Elgar
><boron...@hootmail.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 08:17:22 -0700 (PDT), Mr C <cams...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>>On Sep 9, 12:11�ｿｽam, Boron Elgar <boron_el...@hootmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 07:56:50 -0700, Les Albert <lalbe...@aol.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 06:58:08 -0700 (PDT), "Richard R. Hershberger"
>>>> ><rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>>>> >>On Sep 8, 9:43�ｿｽam, John Hatpin
>>>> >><RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
>
>>>> >>> (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>>>> >>> "Teachers spot trouble in a name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>>>> >>> "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
>>>> >>> looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>>>> >>> The poll of 3,000 teachers found more than one in three expected
>>>> >>> pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
>>>> >>> Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
>>>> >>> were among some of the ones to watch. [...]
>>>> >>> The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
>>>> >>> be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
>>>> >>> Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
>>>> >>> brainiest names."
>>>> >>> Any similarity with the situation LeftPondSide vis-a-vis names?
>
>>>> >>That list seems pretty random to me on both counts (other than the
>>>> >>name "Rebecca" being a sure sign of genius, of course). �ｿｽMy guess is
>>>> >>that these are class markers. �ｿｽThe "smart"names seem to be traditional
>>>> >>English Christian names, while the "ones to watch" are, with the
>>>> >>exception of "Jack", Irish or non-traditional. �ｿｽNames corellate to
>>>> >>class in the U.S. as well, but not the same names. �ｿｽI have been told,
>>>> >>for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in Britain, while
>>>> >>it holds no such association here.
>
>>>> >What are some of the names that indicate upper and lower class in the
>>>> >U.S.? �ｿｽ
>
>
>>>> Have you ever met a kid named "Trailer Trash"?
>
>>>Middle initial?
>
>>G, for "Glorious," because my mom said having me was such a glorious
>>experience (that is from a friend of mine who met this student while
>>substitute teaching).
>
>
>So the student's full name was Trailer Glorious Trash?
>
>Les
>
Yeah, Les, that must have been it.
John Hatpin
> On Sep 8, 10:43�pm, John Hatpin
> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
> >
> > "Teachers spot trouble in a name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
> >
> > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
> >
> > The poll of 3,000 teachers found more than one in three expected
> > pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
> >
> > Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
> > were among some of the ones to watch. [...]
> >
> > The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
> > be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
> > Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
> > brainiest names."
> >
> > Any similarity with the situation LeftPondSide vis-a-vis names?
>
> It was a meme at my old, old school to keep an eye on kids whose names
> started with "J".
>
> Sorry, John.
No apology necessary. My teachers certainly had to keep a close eye
on me, I can tell you. Otherwise, I might walk absentmindedly into
traffic, forget my clothes, or simply fall over without being pushed.
David Friedman
<7db9ed67-832c-4676...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
"Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
> On Sep 8, 9:43�am, John Hatpin
> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
> >
> > "Teachers spot trouble in a
> > name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
> >
> > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
> >
> > The poll of 3,000 teachers found more than one in three expected
> > pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
> >
> > Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
> > were among some of the ones to watch. [...]
> >
> > The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
> > be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
> > Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
> > brainiest names."
> >
> > Any similarity with the situation LeftPondSide vis-a-vis names?
> > --
> > John Hatpinhttp://uninformedcomment.wordpress.com/
>
> That list seems pretty random to me on both counts (other than the
> name "Rebecca" being a sure sign of genius, of course).
How did you know?
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
Pierre Jelenc
>
> Yes, but he lived in a double-wide trailer, so he was considered upper
> class in the trailer park.
Ooh, Amy Speace!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edhGIJmAyDo (band with Trina Hamlin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpcAuI--tMI (solo at the Living Room)
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org
Dana Carpender
Around here, for example, Tonya seems to be a name that blue collar
country folks use, also Crystal. Cody for boys, or Dwayne. I've never
met a rich kid named Dwayne.
If a kid has an Anglo-type last name as a first name, he's likely prep
school material. I knew a Whitsun McNulty back in Lake Forest,
seriously big money. Also a drunk, at least when I knew him. Rapidly
progressing from Whit to half-Whit.
In general, I see less of the whole "creative naming" phenomenon among
the upper class, though rich Hollywood types appear to be the exception.
Dana
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Thinking back on my 40 years of teaching, I have negative correlations
with Benjamin and Marty and positive correlations with Elizabeth and
Priscilla. But almost all other names are neutral.
Charles
Nick Spalding
on Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:04:02 -0400:
What possible connection is there between 'rich Hollywood types' and
'upper class'?
--
Nick Spalding
Lee Ayrton
> In article <7db9ed67-832c-4676...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> Richard R. Hershberger <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 8, 9:43�am, John Hatpin
>> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
>> > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>> >
>> > "Teachers spot trouble in a
>> name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>> >
>> > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
>> > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>
> Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
> lunar cycles sometime.
Yeah, well, speaking as a former nurse I can testify that it's true. More
births, for example, occur within 2 weeks of a new or full moon.
John Hatpin
> In article <7db9ed67-832c-4676...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> Richard R. Hershberger <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 8, 9:43�am, John Hatpin
> > <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
> > >
> > > "Teachers spot trouble in a
> > name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
> > >
> > > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>
> Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
> lunar cycles sometime.
Is it so difficult to believe in a possible silly name->stupid
parent->troublesome kid correlation?
Lee Ayrton
I wonder what the classroom behavior expectations for Moon Unit and
Dweezil were?
Lee "A Rose by any other name can swill tout suite" Ayrton
Opus the Penguin
No, silly. Boron's friend was named Food Food.
--
Opus the Penguin
Think what you will of the man, but you have to give him credit where
it's due - he got really sick. - One of the Bob Gearys
Opus the Penguin
> Dana Carpender wrote, in <h866am$3bu$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
>
>>
>> In general, I see less of the whole "creative naming" phenomenon
>> among the upper class, though rich Hollywood types appear to be
>> the exception.
>
> What possible connection is there between 'rich Hollywood types'
> and 'upper class'?
Money!
--
Opus the Penguin
Cats and "acts normally" are a nearly tangential intersection on a VERY
enlarged Venn diagram. - Robert Crowe
Lee Ayrton
> (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>
> "Teachers spot trouble in a name"
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>
> "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>
> The poll of 3,000 teachers found more than one in three expected
> pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
>
> Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
> were among some of the ones to watch. [...]
>
> The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
> be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
> Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
> brainiest names."
>
> Any similarity with the situation LeftPondSide vis-a-vis names?
Two articles:
http://educationalissues.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_important_are_childrens_names
Summarizes a study published in March 2009 of "Social Science Quarterly"
which suggests that unusual or oddly-spelled names are a social burden on
children and that this may cause behavior problems. "Basically, if
you're teased mercilessly your entire childhood for your name, you
become an angry, bitter person, and you lash out in a way that could be
negative."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11486943/First-Names-and-Crime-Does-Unpopularity-Spell-Trouble
A 1993 US study that correlated first names, socio-economic status and
juvenile deliquency. The study showed a positive correlation for
unpopular names and juvenile deliquency. "Unpopular names are likely not
the cause of crime but correlated with factors that increase the tendency
towards juvenile deliquency [...]"
So, bias and prejudice aside, there might be a bit of fact behind the name
and expectation thing. Of course, it could be expectation and name thing,
too.
Les Albert
Food Food and Glorious made me think of
-----------------------------------------------------------
The Hippopotamus Song
A bold hippopotamus was standing one day
On the banks of the cool Shalimar.
He gazed at the bottom as he peacefully lay
By the light of the evening star.
Away on the hilltop sat combing her hair
His fair hippopotami maid.
The hippopotamus was no ignoramus
And sang her this sweet serenade
Chorus:
Mud, mud, glorious mud
Nothing quite like it for cooling the blood
So follow me follow, down to the hollow
And there let me wallow in glorious mud.
The fair hippopotama he aimed to entice
From her seat on that hilltop above.
As she hadn't got a ma to give her advice
Came tiptoeing down to her love.
Like thunder the forest re-echoed the sound
Of the song that they sang when they met.
His inamorata adjusted her garter
And lifted her voice in duet
Mud, mud, glorious mud ....
----------------------------------------------------
More lyrics to this song by Flanders and Swann at:
www.poppyfields.net/poppy/songs/hippopotamus.html
Les
David Friedman
Dana Carpender <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
> In general, I see less of the whole "creative naming" phenomenon among
> the upper class, though rich Hollywood types appear to be the exception.
>
I read an article not long ago which argued, if I remember correctly,
that the practice of inventing an (often unique) name for a child was
common mostly in black culture. I think relatively lower class black
culture, but I may be misremembering that part.
John Hatpin
Or The Twelfth.
(It's a British hunting joke. You won't get it unless you're hunting
the British.)
HVS
-snip-
I've always loved this song, and used to play/sing it at the piano
along with a bunch of other Flanders & Swann (and most of Tom
Lehrer).
Wonderful stuff -- may I annotate?
> Food Food and Glorious made me think of
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> The Hippopotamus Song
>
> A bold hippopotamus was standing one day
> On the banks of the cool Shalimar.
> He gazed at the bottom as he peacefully lay
> By the light of the evening star.
> Away on the hilltop sat combing her hair
> His fair hippopotami maid.
> The hippopotamus was no ignoramus
What a nice rhyme; it's like Flanders's intro to The Sloth
("...the slawth, or slothe if you use bawth pronunciations")
> And sang her this sweet serenade
>
> Chorus:
> Mud, mud, glorious mud
> Nothing quite like it for cooling the blood
> So follow me follow, down to the hollow
> And there let me wallow in glorious mud.
> The fair hippopotama he aimed to entice
> From her seat on that hilltop above.
> As she hadn't got a ma to give her advice
Almost -- not quite, but getting there -- at the level of Parker's
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think".
> Came tiptoeing down to her love.
> Like thunder the forest re-echoed the sound
> Of the song that they sang when they met.
> His inamorata adjusted her garter
I really like this rhyme -- a generic BrE rhyme which doesn't work
at all if (like me) you grew up pronouncing your terminal r's.
> And lifted her voice in duet
>
> Mud, mud, glorious mud ....
> ----------------------------------------------------
> More lyrics to this song by Flanders and Swann at:
>
> www.poppyfields.net/poppy/songs/hippopotamus.html
>
> Les
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Cheers,
Harvey
John Hatpin
I doubt they were common enough names to generate any behavioural
expectations. It's not about silly names - I was wrong to use that
phrase just there - it's about the relationship between some quite
common names and parents' attitudes.
David Friedman
<c0fb6e76-03bf-4908...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Veronique <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
For the Fortune 1000, the list starts:
Adams, K.S. Jr.
Adelson, Sheldon G.
Adkerson, Richard C.
Aguirre, Fernando
Alario, Richard J.
Alesio, Steven W.
Alexander, Anthony J.
Allison, Herbert M. Jr.
Allott, Anthony J.
Altabef, Peter A.
Amen, Robert M.
Amos, Daniel P.
Anastasio, Curtis V.
Anderson, Bradbury H
Anderson, Richard H.
Anderson, David R.
Anderson, R. John
Anderson, Michael J.
Angel, Stephen F.
Anthony, Richard E.
Appleton, Steven R.
Archibald, Nolan D.
Armes, Roy V.
Armstrong, Greg L.
Arpey, Gerard J.
Askren, Stanley A.
Assadi, Mehran
Atkin, Jerry C.
Ayer, Ramani
Ayer, William S.
Beauchamp, Robert E.
Begley, Christopher B.
Belk, Thomas M. Jr.
Benante, Martin R.
Bennett, Michael L.
Berce, Daniel E.
Bergman, Stanley M.
Bergren, Byron L.
Berkett, Neil
Berkley, William R.
Bernhard, James M. Jr.
Best, Robert W.
Bettinger, Walter W. II
Bewkes, Jeffrey L.
Beyer, Richard M.
Bezos, Jeffrey P.
Binder, Jeffrey R.
Bisaro, Paul M.
Black, Jeffrey P.
Blackburn, John D.
Blair, David T.
Blake, Francis S.
Blankenship, Don L.
Blankfein, Lloyd C.
Blodgett, Lynn R.
Bluedorn, Todd M.
Boeckmann, Alan L.
Boehne, Richard A.
Bohn, Robert G.
Boots, Ira G.
Boyce, Gregory H.
Boyd, Jeffery H.
Bracken, Richard M.
Brady, Robert T.
Braly, Angela F.
Bramanti, Frank J.
Bready, Richard L.
Brennan, Robert T.
Bresky, Steven J.
Brock, John F.
Bronfman, Edgar Jr.
Brooks, Douglas H.
Broussard, Bruce D.
Brown, Gregory Q.
Brown, Jack H.
Buck, Robert R.
Buckley, George W.
Buffett, Warren E.
Bunch, Charles E.
Burd, Steven A.
Burgess, Mark S.
Burke, Kevin
Burke, Thomas A.
Burton, Robert G. Sr.
Burzik, Catherine M.
Busse, Keith E.
Butler, Gary C.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/ceos/B.html
A lot are traditional English Christian first names, but far from all.
HVS
Eric Partridge probably included it under rhyming slang for
"scouse".
--
Cheers,
Harvey
David Friedman
John Hatpin <RemoveThi...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
Or, alternatively, a name-->class/ethnicity-->behavior correlation?
Different subpopulation are quite likely to have different norms of
behavior.
David Friedman
Lee Ayrton <lay...@panix.com> wrote:
All of them, I would think.
Peter Boulding
<cf6f767e-9563-447c...@v23g2000pro.googlegroups.com>:
>It was a meme at my old, old school to keep an eye on kids whose names
>started with "J".
My schoolteacher ex, when taking a first look at a new class list, would
dread the appearance of Jasons and Tracys.
--
Regards, Peter Boulding
pjbn...@UNSPAMpboulding.co.uk (to e-mail, remove "UNSPAM")
Fractal Music and Images: http://www.pboulding.co.uk/ and
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=794240&content=music
Jerry Bauer
> In article <h86boj$l0d$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Lee Ayrton <lay...@panix.com> wrote:
>
<<<...>>>
> > Yeah, well, speaking as a former nurse I can testify that it's true. More
> > births, for example, occur within 2 weeks of a new or full moon.
>
> All of them, I would think.
Greg, stop posting through David's account.
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 08:44:35 -0700 (PDT), Veronique
> <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 8, 8:41 am, "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>>> On Sep 8, 10:56 am, Les Albert <lalbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>>> What are some of the names that indicate upper and lower class in the
>>>> U.S.?
>
>>> Look at the names of the children and grandchildren of the Palin
>>> family for lower class (which, to point out the obvious, is distinct
>>> from "poor"). Upper class is trickier, if only because defining
>>> "upper class" in the U.S. context is tricky. I don't know what the
>>> scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
>>> nowadays. If forced to guess, mine would be that they largely stick
>>> to traditional English Christian names.
>
>> I'm too lazy to do it myself, but what are the first names of the
>> Fortune 500 CEOs? Or the regents of the UC system?
>
>
>
> Hadi Makarechian. All the other names are plain vanilla:
>
> www.universityofcalifornia.edu/regents/contact.html
Or you could try the Forbes 400:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/54/400list08_The-400-Richest-Americans_Rank.html
Charles
David Friedman
"Charles Wm. Dimmick" <cdim...@snet.net> wrote:
> Or you could try the Forbes 400:
>
> http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/54/400list08_The-400-Richest-Americans_Rank.h
> tml
I like that list. Lots of Davids.
Dana Carpender
You forget, dear, that this is the US, where at least some semblance of
class mobility can be purchased.
Dana
Ted The Cat
There was a fad among poor white rednecks in Oklahoma for the name
Misty Dawn about 25 years ago.
Les Albert
wrote:
I saw Flanders and Swann when they did their show, "At the Drop of a
Hat", in N.Y.C. many years ago. Great stuff!
Les
Mac
I hope it includes the sequel:
The amorous hippopotamus, whose love song we lnow,
Is now married, and father of ten.
He murmurs "God rot 'em" as he watches them grow,
And he longs to be single again.
Veronique
wrote:
> In article
> <c0fb6e76-03bf-4908-9066-6a5be44da...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
I'm not seeing, either on that list, ChasotE's Forbes 400 list, or the
list of UC Regents, any names I'd consider "Kreeyatif", although some
are definitely foreign (and I have no way to evaluate whether "Sergey"
is equivalent to "David" or "Chylar", to pull a name from the Mormon
Baby List, for example.)
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
Veronique
<RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> Hactar wrote:
> > In article <7db9ed67-832c-4676-b10a-cda647e3b...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> > Richard R. Hershberger <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
> > > On Sep 8, 9:43 am, John Hatpin
> > > <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > > > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>
> > > > "Teachers spot trouble in a
> > > name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>
> > > > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > > > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>
> > Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
> > lunar cycles sometime.
>
> Is it so difficult to believe in a possible silly name->stupid
> parent->troublesome kid correlation?
Are Mormons more likely to have troublesome offspring? Aside from Mitt
Romney or Orrin Hatch. 'Coz there's a bit of a tradition in among
Utahn Mormons for putting some creativity into first names (expected,
I suppose, when 1 in 4 has the last name "Smith" or "Young.")
To go out on a limb, it's a cultural thing, this child-naming, and if
one's culture encourages live birth at age fifteen and dropping out of
school to do so, at an age when names like "Felony" and "Absynthe"
seem exciting and unique (just like everyone else), well, there's
additional baggage that's gonna come on down with the unusual name.
Greg Goss
>That list seems pretty random to me on both counts (other than the
>name "Rebecca" being a sure sign of genius, of course). My guess is
>that these are class markers. The "smart"names seem to be traditional
>English Christian names, while the "ones to watch" are, with the
>exception of "Jack", Irish or non-traditional. Names corellate to
>class in the U.S. as well, but not the same names. I have been told,
>for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in Britain, while
>it holds no such association here.
I think of "Jack" as being Irish, just as much as the others there.
"Jack Ryan" of spy thriller fame, or "Jack Kennedy". My Polish friend
Jacek ("The E is silent") was an exception.
When you say "Sharon", I get no class vibes at all. My housekeeper is
pure blue-collar. Sharon Tate was portrayed as super-rich, though I
don't know how reality corresponds with Hollywood portrayals. The gal
that Jim Stafford ain't sharin' is presumably redneck. A miswire in
my association circuits tries to match an Alaskan ex-governor as a
"Sharon". Those are all the Sharons that come to my mind.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Greg Goss
>What are some of the names that indicate upper and lower class in the
>U.S.?
Last name as a girl's first name triggers "upper class" to me.
However the upper-class names are all then quickly adopted by working
class via the soaps. For example, Madison was once upper-class, then
pure working class, and by now is ready for a re-adoption by the
upper-class.
American soaps watch the rich, while Brit soaps seem to focus more on
ordinary people. If soaps are the origins of kids' names, then this
would provide a leveling influence over here that wouldn't happen
there.
Greg Goss
>Dana Carpender wrote, in <h866am$3bu$1...@news.eternal-september.org>
>> In general, I see less of the whole "creative naming" phenomenon among
>> the upper class, though rich Hollywood types appear to be the exception.
>
>What possible connection is there between 'rich Hollywood types' and
>'upper class'?
"Lifestyles of the rich and famous".
North Americans think that the rich hollywood types ARE the upper
class. Except maybe in voting for or against taxation.
Greg Goss
>In article <7db9ed67-832c-4676...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>Richard R. Hershberger <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 8, 9:43�am, John Hatpin
>> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
>> > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>> >
>> > "Teachers spot trouble in a
>> name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>> >
>> > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
>> > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>
>Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
>lunar cycles sometime.
>
>> I have been told, for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in
>> Britain, while it holds no such association here.
>
>So in the song "I Ain't Sharin' Sharon", what can we assume about the
>(presumably Australian) Sharon?
Australian? I thought that Stafford wrote his own stuff? Who else
does the song?
Hactar
>
> > In article
> <7db9ed67-832c-4676...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> > Richard R. Hershberger <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
> > > On Sep 8, 9:43�am, John Hatpin
> > > <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > > > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
> > > >
> > > > "Teachers spot trouble in a
> > > name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
> > > >
> > > > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > > > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
> >
> > Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
> > lunar cycles sometime.
>
> parent->troublesome kid correlation?
It's also believable if a step is inserted:
silly name -> stupid parent -> kid gets treated as a troublemaker -> kid
becomes troublemaker.
--
"Never go off on tangents, which are lines that intersect a curve at
only one point and were discovered by Euclid, who lived in the [1st C
BC], which was an era dominated by the Goths, who lived in what we now
know as Poland." - from the Nov. 1998 issue of Infosystems Executive.
Xho Jingleheimerschmidt
>
>
>
> The UC regents have no unusual names except for Oddessa Johnson and
> Hadi Makarechian. All the other names are plain vanilla:
>
> www.universityofcalifornia.edu/regents/contact.html
How did you classify Ward, back when he was on board?
Hactar
Bugger, I thought it was by Kevin Bloody Wilson. Never mind then.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP http://royalty.mine.nu:81
LEO: Now is not a good time to photocopy your butt and staple it
to your boss' face, oh no. Eat a bucket of tuna-flavored pudding
and wash it down with a gallon of strawberry Quik. -- Weird Al
Les Albert
Classified as controversial. And definitely not a plain vanilla name.
Les
Heather
wrote:
>In article <7gofebF...@mid.individual.net>,
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>> ebenZ...@verizon.net (Hactar) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <7db9ed67-832c-4676...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>> >Richard R. Hershberger <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have been told, for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in
>> >> Britain, while it holds no such association here.
>> >
>> >So in the song "I Ain't Sharin' Sharon", what can we assume about the
>> >(presumably Australian) Sharon?
>>
>> Australian? I thought that Stafford wrote his own stuff? Who else
>> does the song?
>
>Bugger, I thought it was by Kevin Bloody Wilson. Never mind then.
Just FYI, Sharon is definitely a lower-class name in Australia.
--
Heather
Opus the Penguin
> In article <h86boj$l0d$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Lee Ayrton <lay...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 11:18:49 -0400, Hactar wrote:
>>
>> > In article
>> > <7db9ed67-832c-4676...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.c
>> > om>, Richard R. Hershberger <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>> >> On Sep 8, 9:43�am, John Hatpin
>> >> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
>> >> > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>> >> >
>> >> > "Teachers spot trouble in a
>> >> name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>> >> >
>> >> > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to
>> >> > play up by looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>> >
>> > Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or
>> > policeman about lunar cycles sometime.
>>
>> Yeah, well, speaking as a former nurse I can testify that it's
>> true. More births, for example, occur within 2 weeks of a new or
>> full moon.
>
> All of them, I would think.
>
Did you know that 40% of sick days get taken on the day just before
or just after the weekend?
--
Opus the Penguin
The forest is fraught with marauders. - Les Albert
Dana Carpender
> Les Albert <lalb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> What are some of the names that indicate upper and lower class in the
>> U.S.?
>
> Last name as a girl's first name triggers "upper class" to me.
> However the upper-class names are all then quickly adopted by working
> class via the soaps. For example, Madison was once upper-class, then
> pure working class, and by now is ready for a re-adoption by the
> upper-class.
"Madison" started with the movie Splash. I'm not sure it was ever
really upper class.
Dana
Bill Kinkaid
wrote:
>
>I wonder what the classroom behavior expectations for Moon Unit and
>Dweezil were?
>
>
I'm just trying to imagine the parent-teacher meetings.
--
Bill in Vancouver
John Hatpin
And I'm trying to imagine the end-of-term school concerts.
--
John Hatpin
http://uninformedcomment.wordpress.com/
David Friedman
I didn't know that--I would have expected it to be higher.
David Friedman
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
I don't think there is an unambiguous American definition of "upper
class." One of the differences between U.S. culture and U.K. culture, at
least as U.K. culture was in then not terribly distant past, is that the
U.S. has much less clearly defined classes.
David Friedman
<84531790-bb24-4953...@v15g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
Veronique <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not seeing, either on that list, ChasotE's Forbes 400 list, or the
> list of UC Regents, any names I'd consider "Kreeyatif", although some
> are definitely foreign (and I have no way to evaluate whether "Sergey"
> is equivalent to "David" or "Chylar", to pull a name from the Mormon
> Baby List, for example.)
I agree. I was thinking of traditional English Christian first names vs
other first names, many traditional in other cultures.
Part of this may be selective perception. Suppose one percent of the
kids have "creative" first names. You notice those and not the ordinary
names, so it seems more common than it is. But if you are given a list
of a hundred names, from Fortune, Forbes, or the Regents, the odds are
pretty good that none of them is creative, and it's unlikely that more
than one or two are.
plausible prose man
wrote:
> In article <h866am$3b...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Dana Carpender <dcarp...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
>
> > In general, I see less of the whole "creative naming" phenomenon among
> > the upper class, though rich Hollywood types appear to be the exception.
I suppose, compared to inner city blacks, maybe. Still, from what I
understand, the names professionals are giving their kids these days
are downright weird:
"Where, then, will the new high-end names come from? Considering the
traditionally strong correlation between income and education, it
probably makes sense to look at the most popular current names among
parents with the most years of education. Here, drawn from a pair of
databases that provide the years of parental education, is a sampling
of such names. "
Girls:
Annika
Ansley
Ava
Avery
Aviva
Clementine
Eleanor
Ella
Emma
Fiona
Flannery
Grace
Isabel
Kate
Lara
Linden
Maeve
Marie-Claire
Maya
Philippa
Phoebe
Quinn
Sophie
Waverly
Aviva? Clementine? Waverly?
Boys:
Aidan
Aldo
Anderson
Ansel
Asher
Beckett
Bennett
Carter
Cooper
Finnegan
Harper
Jackson
Johan
Keyon
Liam
Maximilian
McGregor
Oliver
Reagan
Sander
Sumner
Will
Keyon? Johan? Aldo?
> I read an article not long ago which argued, if I remember correctly,
> that the practice of inventing an (often unique) name for a child was
> common mostly in black culture. I think relatively lower class black
> culture, but I may be misremembering that part.
" much more than other minorities, [blacks] choose distinctive names
for their children. The
distinctiveness of Black names has risen greatly over time, most
notably in the late 1960s and
early 1970s. These shifts in naming patterns have not been uniform.
The median Black name has
shifted dramatically towards being distinctively Black. Among the
quarter of the Black
population choosing the names most common among Whites, the opposite
pattern is evident.
Further, Blacks living in highly segregated Black communities today
are much more likely to
have distinctively Black names than those in integrated communities,
whereas this was not the
case in the early 1960’s. Finally, until the late 1970s, the choice of
Black names was only
weakly associated with socio-economic status; in the 1980s and 1990s
distinctively Black names
have come to be increasingly associated with mothers who are young,
poor, unmarried, and have
low education."
Causes and Consequences of Distinctively Black Names, Fryer and Levitt
2003.
plausible prose man
> On Sep 8, 10:56 am, Les Albert <lalbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > >On Sep 8, 9:43 am, John Hatpin
> > ><RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > >> (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
> > >> "Teachers spot trouble in a name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
> > >> "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > >> looking at their names, a survey suggests.
> > >> pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
> > >> Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
> > >> were among some of the ones to watch. [...]
> > >> The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
> > >> be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
> > >> Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
> > >> brainiest names."
> > >> Any similarity with the situation LeftPondSide vis-a-vis names?
> > >name "Rebecca" being a sure sign of genius, of course). My guess is
> > >that these are class markers. The "smart"names seem to be traditional
> > >English Christian names, while the "ones to watch" are, with the
> > >exception of "Jack", Irish or non-traditional. Names corellate to
> > >for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in Britain, while
> > >it holds no such association here.
>
> > U.S.?
>
> family for lower class
If I were going for on-the-nose lower class names, I wouldn't go for
those; indeed, Piper and even Bristol seem halfway posh. Trig, too; it
puts you in mind of Trip and Trey, which are, I think, at least the
Southern version of upper class. Perhaps not as classy as the New
England and Mid Atlantic version, but, um...Willow, I have no strong
opinion about that, sounds a bit strippery, but, eh..
Track, of course, is inexplcable.
(which, to point out the obvious, is distinct
> from "poor"). Upper class is trickier, if only because defining
> "upper class" in the U.S. context is tricky. I don't know what the
> scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
> nowadays. If forced to guess, mine would be that they largely stick
> to traditional English Christian names.
I could only find four Rockefellers who are younger than I am.
Peter Parmalee Bens (1987)
Erik Carl Bens (1996)
Sarah Prentice Bens (1997)
Andrea Foxx (1988)
The middle names are a little strange, and there's a good chance
Sarah Prentice will go through life known by the name she picks up in
prep school or summer camp. Andrea Foxx, however, is a silly name.
plausible prose man
> Les Albert wrote:
> > On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 08:44:35 -0700 (PDT), Veronique
> > <veroniqueuni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sep 8, 8:41 am, "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
> >>> On Sep 8, 10:56 am, Les Albert <lalbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> What are some of the names that indicate upper and lower class in the
> >>>> U.S.?
>
> >>> Look at the names of the children and grandchildren of the Palin
> >>> from "poor"). Upper class is trickier, if only because defining
> >>> "upper class" in the U.S. context is tricky. I don't know what the
> >>> scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
> >>> nowadays. If forced to guess, mine would be that they largely stick
> >>> to traditional English Christian names.
>
> >> Fortune 500 CEOs? Or the regents of the UC system?
>
> > Hadi Makarechian. All the other names are plain vanilla:
>
> >www.universityofcalifornia.edu/regents/contact.html
>
>
Which seems to indicate a disconnect between our perceptions of class
and wealth and the reality; only a couple of names really had that
"rich guy" ring to them such that you'd give a name a billionaire
industrialist or some generationally rich person in a novel; Sumner
Redstone and Sanford Weill. Meanwhile, Don and Doris Fisher sound like
someone who lives in Akron and is some sort of regional supervisor for
an aluminum siding business, and his wife, and he probably knows Todd
Wagner, who's boss has been giving him the hairy eyeball about how
he's been under the draw on the Chevy lot the last couple months.
Bob Ward
<boron...@hootmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 07:56:50 -0700, Les Albert <lalb...@aol.com>
>wrote:
>>What are some of the names that indicate upper and lower class in the
>>U.S.?
>>
>>Les
>
>
>Have you ever met a kid named "Trailer Trash"?
>
>Boron
Only in Malone....
Peter Ward
There's nothing ordinary about people in soaps.
--
Peter, from outside the asylum
I'm an alien
email: usenet at peterward dot adsl24 dot co dot uk
If there were no believers, we wouldn't even need the word "atheism".
Peter Ward
>
> On Sep 8, 12:40 pm, John Hatpin
> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > Hactar wrote:
> > > In article <7db9ed67-832c-4676-b10a-cda647e3b...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Richard R. Hershberger <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
> > > > On Sep 8, 9:43 am, John Hatpin
> > > > <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > > > > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
> >
> > > > > "Teachers spot trouble in a
> > > > name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
> >
> > > > > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > > > > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
> >
> > > Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
> > > lunar cycles sometime.
> >
> > Is it so difficult to believe in a possible silly name->stupid
> > parent->troublesome kid correlation?
>
>
> Are Mormons more likely to have troublesome offspring? Aside from Mitt
> Romney or Orrin Hatch. 'Coz there's a bit of a tradition in among
> Utahn Mormons for putting some creativity into first names (expected,
> I suppose, when 1 in 4 has the last name "Smith" or "Young.")
When everyone has an odd first name, it's odd to have a common name.
--
Peter, from outside the asylum
I'm an alien
email: usenet at peterward dot adsl24 dot co dot uk
Homeopaths suffer from dilutions of grandeur.
- Artyw
John Hatpin
> In article
> <84531790-bb24-4953...@v15g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> Veronique <veroniq...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm not seeing, either on that list, ChasotE's Forbes 400 list, or the
> > list of UC Regents, any names I'd consider "Kreeyatif", although some
> > are definitely foreign (and I have no way to evaluate whether "Sergey"
> > is equivalent to "David" or "Chylar", to pull a name from the Mormon
> > Baby List, for example.)
>
> I agree. I was thinking of traditional English Christian first names vs
> other first names, many traditional in other cultures.
>
> Part of this may be selective perception. Suppose one percent of the
> kids have "creative" first names. You notice those and not the ordinary
> names, so it seems more common than it is. But if you are given a list
> of a hundred names, from Fortune, Forbes, or the Regents, the odds are
> pretty good that none of them is creative, and it's unlikely that more
> than one or two are.
Oh, for God's sake, David, please at least look at the article, or
even just the sections I quoted. Let me paste again:
> Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and
> Chardonnay were among some of the ones to watch.
Of those, only the last two are "creative", or even "not the ordinary
names". I mean, Jack? Connor? Callum?
> The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
> be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
> Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
> brainiest names."
They got noticed too, and there's not a single "creative" or "not
ordinary" name among the ten listed.
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Not all that uncommon along the East Coast among males born between
about 1910 and 1960, "upper middle class" or thereabouts. The three I
have known had a grandparent with Ward as a surname. Ward Clemens, for
instance, was Junior Warden of our church back around 1975, born around
1930. Gentleman farmer.
Charles
Nick Spalding
on Wed, 09 Sep 2009 07:31:16 -0400:
My maternal grandmother was a Ward and there are plenty of them in my
family tree, originating in Belfast or thereabouts. Some of them went
to America. Marcus Lawrence Ward, 1812-1884, was Governor of New Jersey
Jan 16, 1866 to Jan 18, 1869. He sat as a Congressman in the Republican
interest Mar 4, 1873 to Mar 3, 1875. He had five children so I expect
there are lots of his descendants around.
He has a splendid mausoleum which can be seen at
<http://www.findagrave.com/pictures/4877.html>
--
Nick Spalding
S. Checker
> Thinking back on my 40 years of teaching, I have negative correlations
> with Benjamin and Marty and positive correlations with Elizabeth and
> Priscilla. But almost all other names are neutral.
While we were discussing names for our sprogs, there were certain ones
that were absolutely off limits due to the WD's experience as a
teacher. "Peter" for example, still makes her twitch if you catch her
unaware.
--
James McGuire of the University of Liverpool... notes that, in general,
punishment is not effective... Boot camps... and the death penalty are
proving ineffective in preventing recidivism.
--Scientific American, on zombie criminals
David Friedman
"Charles Wm. Dimmick" <cdim...@snet.net> wrote:
The one I know is a professor at CMC and the son of a prominent Harvard
professor.
David Friedman
John Hatpin <RemoveThi...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
I was responding to Veronique's "any names I'd consider Kreeyatif," so
perhaps she is the one your comment should be directed to.
David Friedman
<c3eab662-90c5-4c1c...@t13g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
"Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
> I don't know what the
> scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
> nowadays.
Interesting combination. The Lowells were old line New England upper
class. John D. Rockefeller's father was a travelling salesman.
Dana Carpender
> Veronique says...
>> On Sep 8, 12:40 pm, John Hatpin
>> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
>>> Hactar wrote:
>>>> In article <7db9ed67-832c-4676-b10a-cda647e3b...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Richard R. Hershberger <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 8, 9:43 am, John Hatpin
>>>>> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>>>>>> "Teachers spot trouble in a
>>>>> name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>>>>>> "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
>>>>>> looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>>>> Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
>>>> lunar cycles sometime.
>>> Is it so difficult to believe in a possible silly name->stupid
>>> parent->troublesome kid correlation?
>>
>> Are Mormons more likely to have troublesome offspring? Aside from Mitt
>> Romney or Orrin Hatch. 'Coz there's a bit of a tradition in among
>> Utahn Mormons for putting some creativity into first names (expected,
>> I suppose, when 1 in 4 has the last name "Smith" or "Young.")
>
> When everyone has an odd first name, it's odd to have a common name.
>
Well, and common names change. "Shirley" was common in my mother's
generation, but I haven't met a little girl named Shirley in a long,
long time -- maybe ever, come to think of it. Perhaps it's due for a
comeback? Bertha, Agnes, Edith, Ethel, Ida, were all common first names
once, but despite being "real" names, are virtually never used anymore,
at least in the United States. For that matter, where are the baby
girls named Janet, Jeannie, Carol, Barbara, Cynthia? All "real" names
that are currently out of favor, while the gods of fashion have decreed
that Emma, Audrey, and Grace are now back in.
Boys names seem less trend-driven, but still, I haven't met a toddler
named "Steve" or "Brian" for a long time.
Dana
Dana Carpender
> In article <h883m0$4s2$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Charles Wm. Dimmick" <cdim...@snet.net> wrote:
>
>> Xho Jingleheimerschmidt wrote:
>>> Les Albert wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The UC regents have no unusual names except for Oddessa Johnson and
>>>> Hadi Makarechian. All the other names are plain vanilla:
>>>>
>>>> www.universityofcalifornia.edu/regents/contact.html
>>> How did you classify Ward, back when he was on board?
>> Not all that uncommon along the East Coast among males born between
>> about 1910 and 1960, "upper middle class" or thereabouts. The three I
>> have known had a grandparent with Ward as a surname. Ward Clemens, for
>> instance, was Junior Warden of our church back around 1975, born around
>> 1930. Gentleman farmer.
>
> The one I know is a professor at CMC and the son of a prominent Harvard
> professor.
>
Huh, did you go to CMC? If so, what years?
Dana
Lee Ayrton
> On Sep 8, 8:41�am, "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 8, 10:56�am, Les Albert <lalbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>> > What are some of the names that indicate upper and lower class in the
>> > U.S.? �
>>
>> Look at the names of the children and grandchildren of the Palin
>> family for lower class (which, to point out the obvious, is distinct
>> from "poor"). �Upper class is trickier, if only because defining
>> "upper class" in the U.S. context is tricky. �I don't know what the
>> scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
>> nowadays. �If forced to guess, mine would be that they largely stick
>> to traditional English Christian names.
>
> I'm too lazy to do it myself, but what are the first names of the
> Fortune 500 CEOs? Or the regents of the UC system?
I'm too lazy to look up the "Good Hair Index" for Fortune 500 CEOs.
I'll make a febile attempt at finding heights:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heightism
90% of Fortune 500 CEOs are of above average height at 6', 2" to 3" taller
than average American men. 30% were 6'2" or taller, less than 3% were
shorter than 5'7".
No word on the relationship between adult height and names, though.
Mary
> Charles Wm. Dimmick <cdimm...@snet.net> wrote:
>
> > Thinking back on my 40 years of teaching, I have negative correlations
> > with Benjamin and Marty and positive correlations with Elizabeth and
> > Priscilla. But almost all other names are neutral.
>
> While we were discussing names for our sprogs, there were certain ones
> that were absolutely off limits due to the WD's experience as a
> teacher. "Peter" for example, still makes her twitch if you catch her
> unaware.
You were considering naming your daughter "Peter"?
Mary
Mary
> Boys names seem less trend-driven, but still, I haven't met a toddler
> named "Steve" or "Brian" for a long time.
I know a Bryan who just started first grade this week.
Mary
plausible prose man
> "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>
> >name "Rebecca" being a sure sign of genius, of course). My guess is
> >that these are class markers. The "smart"names seem to be traditional
> >English Christian names, while the "ones to watch" are, with the
> >exception of "Jack", Irish or non-traditional. Names corellate to
> >class in the U.S. as well, but not the same names. I have been told,
> >for example, that "Sharon" is strictly lower class in Britain, while
> >it holds no such association here.
>
> "Jack Ryan" of spy thriller fame, or "Jack Kennedy". My Polish friend
> Jacek ("The E is silent") was an exception.
What about Jack Tar and Jack Ketch and Jack the Ripper and Springheel
Jack?
Dana Carpender
> In article
> <c3eab662-90c5-4c1c...@t13g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know what the
>> scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
>> nowadays.
>
> Interesting combination. The Lowells were old line New England upper
> class. John D. Rockefeller's father was a travelling salesman.
>
Really. The Lowells were more likely to howdy with the Astors, the
Cabots and the Vanderbilts, weren't they?
Dana
Boron Elgar
wrote:
Bryan is within the top 100 for boys in 2009 according to the SSA.
Steve, Steven and Stephen are not.
http://baby-names.familyeducation.com/topnames/boys/
Boron
Nick Spalding
on Wed, 09 Sep 2009 13:31:12 -0400:
And this is good old Boston,
The home of the bean and the cod,
Where the Lowells talk to the Cabots
And the Cabots talk only to God.
John Collins Bossidy [1860-1928]
--
Nick Spalding
Charles Wm. Dimmick
>> Interesting combination. The Lowells were old line New England upper
>> class. John D. Rockefeller's father was a travelling salesman.
> Really. The Lowells were more likely to howdy with the Astors, the
> Cabots and the Vanderbilts, weren't they?
I dwell 'neath the shades of Harvard In the State of the Sacred Cod,
Where the Lowells speak only to Cabots And the Cabots speak only to God
Lee Ayrton
> Peter Ward wrote:
>> When everyone has an odd first name, it's odd to have a common name.
>
> Well, and common names change. "Shirley" was common in my mother's
> generation, but I haven't met a little girl named Shirley in a long,
> long time -- maybe ever, come to think of it. Perhaps it's due for a
> comeback? Bertha, Agnes, Edith, Ethel, Ida, were all common first names
> once, but despite being "real" names, are virtually never used anymore,
> at least in the United States. For that matter, where are the baby
> girls named Janet, Jeannie, Carol, Barbara, Cynthia? All "real" names
> that are currently out of favor, while the gods of fashion have decreed
> that Emma, Audrey, and Grace are now back in.
>
> Boys names seem less trend-driven, but still, I haven't met a toddler
> named "Steve" or "Brian" for a long time.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/
Top US names for 2008:
1 Jacob Emma
2 Michael Isabella
3 Ethan Emily
4 Joshua Madison
5 Daniel Ava
6 Alexander Olivia
7 Anthony Sophia
8 William Abigail
9 Christopher Elizabeth
10 Matthew Chloe
From the same source, it would seem that Steve is becoming less and less
popular, from rank 394 in 2000 to 593 by 2008. Likewise Brian has sunk
from 43 in 2000 to 87 by 2008.
The five names for boys or girls that rose most in popularity from 2007 to
2008 were Jacoby, Kane, Beckett, Paxton and Kale, Khloe, Marlee, Marely,
Audrina and Marley. (the list goes on for more than 500 names each).
The top five names for each in 1909 were Mary, Helen, Margaret, Ruth and
Dorothy, John, William, James, George and Robert.
Greg Goss
My brain's wiring for "names" is pretty badly done. I suspect that I
have two separate pockets for "Jack". One of them is purely Irish and
that's the one I was looking into when I posted that last.
I'm not familiar with at least two of those.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Veronique
> The five names for boys or girls that rose most in popularity from 2007 to
> 2008 were Jacoby, Kane, Beckett, Paxton and Kale, Khloe, Marlee, Marely,
> Audrina and Marley. (the list goes on for more than 500 names each).
"Marely"? What's next, "Cowly"? "Sowly"? "Ewely"
V. "Actually, "Ewely" isn't half bad."
--
Veornique
David Friedman
Dana Carpender <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
And, of course, God.
David Friedman
Dana Carpender <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
No.
He's a friend of mine.
John Hatpin
Apologies, David; I'd got muddled my the thread drift. Looking now,
it's obvious neither you nor V were discussing the original question,
but something else entirely (not that there's anything wrong with
that!).
Again, my apologies to both.
Mary
That reminds me of something. I met a woman last spring whose name
was a variant of "Julie" - Julianne, maybe? Anyway, her preference
(and she signed her name this way) was "Jewl".
Bleh. If you're going to abuse nouns, at least spell them correctly -
assuming she was aiming for jewel, anyway.
Mary
Hactar
We had a German guy here named "Uli" (or maybe "Ulli"). That's close.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP royalty.mine.nu:81
Scientist A: A matterbaby is a very unstable particle.
Scientist B: What's a matterbaby?
Scientist A: I'm doing fine honey, how you doing? -- mrshowrules on Fark
Richard R. Hershberger
> On Sep 8, 11:41 am, "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>
> > from "poor"). Upper class is trickier, if only because defining
> > scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
> > to traditional English Christian names.
>
>
> Peter Parmalee Bens (1987)
> Erik Carl Bens (1996)
> Sarah Prentice Bens (1997)
> Andrea Foxx (1988)
>
> The middle names are a little strange, and there's a good chance
> Sarah Prentice will go through life known by the name she picks up in
> prep school or summer camp. Andrea Foxx, however, is a silly name.
I suspect that the explanation for the middle names would be found by
looking at surnames of the maternal line. English middle names
traditionally follow two distinct patterns: Christian names stuck in
the middle position just because, and surnames (often from the
mother's family). This has long been a normal path for surnames to
morph into Christian names. This has been going on for over four
centuries: plenty long enough for many of these former surnames to
now be entirely unremarkable as Christian names. Two examples from
the top of my head are Douglas and Stanley.
So a name like "Andrea Foxx" seems silly if we expect the middle name
to be another Christian name, but unsurprising if we include the
possibility of its being a surname.
Richard R. Hershberger
Richard R. Hershberger
wrote:
> In article
> <c3eab662-90c5-4c1c-a809-b86104369...@t13g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't know what the
> > scions of the Rockefellers and the Lowells are naming their kids
> > nowadays.
>
> Interesting combination. The Lowells were old line New England upper
> class. John D. Rockefeller's father was a travelling salesman.
That's just another way of saying that you have to go a few more
generations back to find the Lowells' disreputable roots.
There is a story I adore about the Philadelphia aristocracy. It is
always tricky in an American context to precisely identify who is and
is not aristocracy, lacking as we do a Fount of Honour. Philadelphia,
back in the day, had a variety of institutions to make up for this
lack. A particularly important example was, of all things, an annual
cotillion. It was claimed to go back to colonial times. A bit later
George Washington was claimed to have attended. In steely-eyed
unsentimental reality there was a gap in the early 19th century, but
it ran from the early-mid 19th century until at least the mid-20th,
and may be going on today for all I know (though if it is, it is much
reduced). The thing about this event was that attendance was strictly
regulated, and was heriditary. Merely being wealthy wasn't enough.
You had to be of good ancestry as well.
So there was a young lady in early 20th century Philadelphia who
desparately wanted to attend. This young lady's father was one Joseph
Widener. As it happens, the Widener family was really really really
wealthy. They have an entire university named after then today. (OK,
it's in Delaware, but still...) The problem was that their wealth was
a bit too nouveau. Her grandfather had been a butcher. So far as I
can tell, this does not mean he employed men who cut meat, but that he
himself cut meat. Strictly working class, that. Through means I have
never learned, however, he got the contract during the Civil War to
provide meat to all Union troops within a rather broad radius of
Philadelphia. This was the basis of the family's wealth. Some years
after the war they invested wisely in the Philadelphia Traction
Company, which provided trolley service throughout the city. From
there they got in early on U.S. Steel and American Tobacco. So two
generations later they were really really really wealthy.
This could not change the fact, alas, that our heroine's grandfather
had been a butcher (and, reading between the lines, war profiteer,
though I doubt that was what was held against him). She simply wasn't
eligible. But she really really really wanted to attend, and so she
went to Daddy. He loved his daughter, and so he inquired if there was
some way to accommodate her. Alas, this was impossible.
At this point Joseph Widener announced that he was withdrawing from
all philanthropic work. He would not serve on any committees, no
matter how worthy the cause. He would not assist in any fund
raising. He would not be writing any checks. He was on strike.
Under this great stimulation to creativity, the cotillion trustees
recalled that there was a provision for out-of-town guests. (It's not
as if George Washington's family were Philadelphia elite, after all.)
It turned out that the Widener family maintained, among others, a
house just outside the city limits. Praise the Lord! Miss Widener
was invited as a guest to the cotillion, and everyone was happy.
The moral of this story is that every family of means has a butcher in
its family tree, if you look hard enough. The only question is if you
want to look that hard.
Richard R. Hershberger
Richard R. Hershberger
> Peter Ward wrote:
> > Veronique says...
> >> On Sep 8, 12:40 pm, John Hatpin
> >> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> >>> Hactar wrote:
> >>>> In article <7db9ed67-832c-4676-b10a-cda647e3b...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> >>>> Richard R. Hershberger <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sep 8, 9:43 am, John Hatpin
> >>>>> <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
> >>>>>> "Teachers spot trouble in a
> >>>>> name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
> >>>>>> "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> >>>>>> looking at their names, a survey suggests.
> >>>> Yeah, people have a lot of crazy ideas. Ask a nurse or policeman about
> >>>> lunar cycles sometime.
> >>> Is it so difficult to believe in a possible silly name->stupid
> >>> parent->troublesome kid correlation?
>
> >> Are Mormons more likely to have troublesome offspring? Aside from Mitt
> >> Romney or Orrin Hatch. 'Coz there's a bit of a tradition in among
> >> Utahn Mormons for putting some creativity into first names (expected,
> >> I suppose, when 1 in 4 has the last name "Smith" or "Young.")
>
> > When everyone has an odd first name, it's odd to have a common name.
The thought has crossed my mind that I am being radical, giving my
daughters the names "Rebecca" and "Margaret" More seriously, however,
there is a pool of names which never really go away. Rebecca and
Margaret may be the only ones in their classes with these names, but
they are unlikely to be the only ones in their schools.
> Well, and common names change. "Shirley" was common in my mother's
> generation, but I haven't met a little girl named Shirley in a long,
> long time -- maybe ever, come to think of it. Perhaps it's due for a
> comeback? Bertha, Agnes, Edith, Ethel, Ida, were all common first names
> once, but despite being "real" names, are virtually never used anymore,
> at least in the United States. For that matter, where are the baby
> girls named Janet, Jeannie, Carol, Barbara, Cynthia? All "real" names
> that are currently out of favor, while the gods of fashion have decreed
> that Emma, Audrey, and Grace are now back in.
I have an aunt who wanted to give her daughter a nice, old-fashioned
name the kid wouldn't have to share with a bunch of classmates. She
chose "Emily" just in time for the "Emily" craze. C'est la vie.
>
> Boys names seem less trend-driven, but still, I haven't met a toddler
> named "Steve" or "Brian" for a long time.
>
> Dana- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Richard R. Hershberger
wrote:
> In article
> <7db9ed67-832c-4676-b10a-cda647e3b...@y21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhe...@acme.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 8, 9:43 am, John Hatpin
> > <RemoveThisjfhop...@gmailAndThisToo.com> wrote:
> > > (The subject title can easily be misheard.)
>
> > > "Teachers spot trouble in a
> > > name"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8243684.stm
>
> > > "Teachers think they can tell which pupils are likely to play up by
> > > looking at their names, a survey suggests.
>
> > > pupils with certain names to be more disruptive.
>
> > > Pupils called Callum, Connor, Jack, Chelsea, Courtney and Chardonnay
>
> > > The survey also asked teachers what the brightest children tended to
> > > be called, with Alexander, Adam, Christopher, Benjamin, Edward,
> > > Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emma, Hannah and Rebecca coming in as the
> > > brainiest names."
>
> > > --
> > > John Hatpinhttp://uninformedcomment.wordpress.com/
>
> > That list seems pretty random to me on both counts (other than the
> > name "Rebecca" being a sure sign of genius, of course).
>
She gets it from her father.
Veronique
Huh. I thought the moral was, keep a house outside city limits, just
in case.
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
David Friedman
<d8eb0f40-2d85-4168...@z30g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
"Richard R. Hershberger" <rrh...@acme.com> wrote:
How did you know that. Have you been spying on us?
S. Checker
Well, "Sue" was already reserved for our first boy.
But there was a period during which we did not know the sex of our
children. The doctor removed that uncertainty shortly after they were
born.
--
People don't listen to enough Motorhead.
-Katy Q.