American/Canadian pronounciation of "about"
Niek van der Donk
like "a-boat" (with a diphtong, just like the Scots would do). Is that
done in the whole of Canada and the USA, or is it regional?
Kind regards,
Niek.
PS.
Statement: Dutch names are never pronounced properly on British
and American television. While "Beethoven" is never pronounced as
"Beathoven" (with the oven as in "oven") and "Chagall" is not called "jekkyl" Rembrandt is always
pronounced "Rem-brand" instead of "Rem-braant", not to mention
"Vincent van Goch" which often is pronounced "Vinsnt van Go" which
does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
starting with the same "ch"). But anyway ... it gives the Dutch a
whole new look at their artists.
--
Niek van der Donk, Tilburg University
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
en zij trokken op naar Jericho,
alwaar zij de muren bestormden
en zich op de maagden wierpen
en kindertjes maakten met houten verdommenisjes
opdat zij in het water zouden blijven drijven
en zij riepen "Hosanna, hosanna, d'n beer is los"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CG RUSSELL
: does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
: starting with the same "ch"). But anyway ... it gives the Dutch a
That would make him Vincent Van Cock and that's swearing.
Cheers,
Chris.
William Davenant
Niek van der Donk <s64...@kub.nl> wrote:
>Sometimes I hear Canadians and Americans pronounce "about" something
>like "a-boat" (with a diphtong, just like the Scots would do). Is that
>done in the whole of Canada and the USA, or is it regional?
A lot of Canadians and some Americans (e.g., some parts of Virginia) do say
about a-boat. Much more prevalent in Canada than here I'd say. Typically,
folks who render about a-boat also say house hoos. In the 18th century
lots of Scotch-Irish folks settled in Virginia.
>Statement: Dutch names are never pronounced properly on British
>and American television.
Your probably right on that score.
Calum Benson
You just said that deliberately so I could launch into my Scottish
pronunciation lecture again, didn't you?
Well, it's 6:25 on a Friday night, and I'm going home. So it didn't work.
Slainte
Calum
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
|Calum Benson | email: cal...@logcam.co.uk |
|Logica Cambridge (User Interface Div.) | Tel: (0223) 66343 x4825 |
|Betjeman House +------------------+----------------------------|
|104 Hills Road | " I just wouldn't know a single word to say |
|Cambridge CB2 1LQ | If I flattened all my vowels and I threw |
|UK | the R away." (The Proclaimers) |
+--------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
Deryk Barker
: like "a-boat" (with a diphtong, just like the Scots would do). Is that
: done in the whole of Canada and the USA, or is it regional?
It's just Canada, mainly the East but you do hear it all over. It's
one of the things which distinguishes a Canadian accent from the many
US accents. In the movie Kelly's Heroes, inwhich Donald Sutherland
plays a (totally anochronistic) hippy tank commander, there's a
wonderful moment when he stands up on his tank and yells to his crews
"move 'em oat!"
--
Deryk.
=================================================================
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Without music, life |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | would be a mistake |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 604 370 4452 | (Friedrich Nietzsche).|
=================================================================
CG RUSSELL
: In article <1994Jan7.1...@bradford.ac.uk> C.G.R...@bradford.ac.uk (CG RUSSELL) writes:
: >Niek van der Donk (s64...@kub.nl) wrote:
: >: does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
: >: starting with the same "ch"). But anyway ... it gives the Dutch a
: >
: >That would make him Vincent Van Cock and that's swearing.
: You just said that deliberately so I could launch into my Scottish
: pronunciation lecture again, didn't you?
: Well, it's 6:25 on a Friday night, and I'm going home. So it didn't work.
According to your header it was 6:23 when you wrote this, are you tring to
make us think you are a martyr to your work.
Cheers,
Chris.
Calum Benson
No, the clock on my Mac menu bar is just two minutes fast. (That's the
trouble with these Quadra 840AV's - too fast for their own good).
Anthony M. Becker
accent myself from listening regularly to the CBC, which comes in quite
clearly since I am not far from the border. In a way, it's kind of
funny to have people ask me where I'm from (because of my accent), and
to see their faces when I tell them I've lived here in SE Michigan all
of my life.
--
Anthony M. Becker 313/370-2117 | "Rufen Sie meinen Vater an, meine Mutter
Email: bec...@vela.acs.oakland.edu | ist zu beschaeftigt."
| - Chelsea Clinton
Simon Furey
wrote:
>
> No, the clock on my Mac menu bar is just two minutes fast. (That's the
> trouble with these Quadra 840AV's - too fast for their own good).
>
> Slainte
>
Flash git. Us poor mortals have to survive on Mac Pluses and SE30s :-(
Simon
--
+--------------------------------------+
+ Reality is only one person's opinion +
+--------------------------------------+
CG RUSSELL
: No, the clock on my Mac menu bar is just two minutes fast. (That's the
: trouble with these Quadra 840AV's - too fast for their own good).
: Slainte
: Calum
Funny You should mention that, I have a couple of 840AV's in the lab and
their clocks are too fast, maybe it's a conspiracy.
Cheers,
Chris.
Niek van der Donk
|> Calum Benson (cal...@logcam.co.uk) wrote:
|> : In article <1994Jan7.1...@bradford.ac.uk> C.G.R...@bradford.ac.uk (CG RUSSELL) writes:
|> : >Niek van der Donk (s64...@kub.nl) wrote:
|> : >: does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
|> : >: starting with the same "ch"). But anyway ... it gives the Dutch a
|> : >
|> : >That would make him Vincent Van Cock and that's swearing.
|>
|> : You just said that deliberately so I could launch into my Scottish
|> : pronunciation lecture again, didn't you?
I was right wasn't I, I mean if "loch" is still pronounced /loX/ where
the X is a fricative. Anyway, to have it completely right the first G
of van Goch is voiced, while the "ch" of "loch" is not.
Niek "you want to speak Dutch properly? Go to Scotland" van der Donk.
Rebecca M Nyderek
writes:
> It's just Canada, mainly the East but you do hear it all over. It's
> one of the things which distinguishes a Canadian accent from the many
> US accents.
This just isn't true. I am from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and the
a-boat pronunciation is seen there just as much as in Canada. In fact,
people have asked me if I was from Canada just because of the way I
pronounce many of the things I say. This dialect is also found in the
upper half of Minnesota.
Deryk Barker
: In article <CJCE2...@suncad.camosun.bc.ca> dbarker@turing (Deryk Barker)
I stand (well sit) corrected, and someone else pointed out that the
pronunciation is also found in Virginia. It's interesting, though,
that your pronunciation of the word leads people to believe that you
are one of us, no?
David Boothroyd
My LCII's desktop clock also runs fast. I got a shareware utility called
AJTimes to fix it, but it still runs fast at a slower rate.
There's definitely something going on here.
I know what it is! Apple are trying to remind you that they keep bringing
out new models, bu showing you that the one you've got is getting older
faster than you are ...
--
David ----- Boothroyd - | 'Goldwater put it in context when he said,
dboothro\ /@nyx.cs.du.edu| "(expletive deleted) everybody bugs everybody
or at \ /nyx10.cs.du.edu| else"' - Richard Milhous Nixon, bugging himself
~ |================================================
ajmor...@happy.uccs.edu
> In article <1994Jan10.0...@bradford.ac.uk>, C.G.R...@bradford.ac.uk (CG RUSSELL) writes:
> |> Calum Benson (cal...@logcam.co.uk) wrote:
> |> : In article <1994Jan7.1...@bradford.ac.uk> C.G.R...@bradford.ac.uk (CG RUSSELL) writes:
> |> : >Niek van der Donk (s64...@kub.nl) wrote:
> |> : >: does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
> |> : >: starting with the same "ch"). But anyway ... it gives the Dutch a
> |> : >
> |> : >That would make him Vincent Van Cock and that's swearing.
> |>
> |> : You just said that deliberately so I could launch into my Scottish
> |> : pronunciation lecture again, didn't you?
>
> I was right wasn't I, I mean if "loch" is still pronounced /loX/ where
> the X is a fricative. Anyway, to have it completely right the first G
> of van Goch is voiced, while the "ch" of "loch" is not.
>
> Niek "you want to speak Dutch properly? Go to Scotland" van der Donk.
>
> --
> Niek van der Donk, Tilburg University
Well, my $0.02--
In America, the proper way to pronounce the name is "Van Go". This may not be
the way the name would be pronounced in the original Dutch, but this is the way
most English speakers do it, & I don't see anything wrong with it. I base this
assertion on three facts:
A)My Art History professor pronounced it as "Van Go", and since he is a full
Professor and chairman of the Art department, I figure he knows what he's
talking about.
B) If you pronounced it as "Van CHoCH", a lot of people would not know you
were talking about a Post-Impressionist painter, they'd think you were choking
and attempt to give you the Heimlich manuver.
C) A lot of people who would know what you were talking about when you said
"Van CHoCH", would think you're a twit who has a ridiculous affectation of
overpronouncing foreign words.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Amy Morrison-- ajmor...@uccs.edu (for now)
nirv...@ctnet.org (shortly)
"Funny, Canada could have had British government, French culture and American
proficiency. So how did you wind up with French government, American culture
and British proficiency?"
--J. Jones & W. Wilson, An Incomplete Education
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mrs. S.C. Presland
I don't know the answer, as I have Van Goch's ear for linguistics..
(i keep it in a drawer of my desk....:-)..)
TaTa.
San
(Pronounced San)
Niek van der Donk
|> In America, the proper way to pronounce the name is "Van Go". This may not be
|> the way the name would be pronounced in the original Dutch, but this is the way
|> most English speakers do it, & I don't see anything wrong with it. I base this
|> assertion on three facts:
|>
|> A)My Art History professor pronounced it as "Van Go", and since he is a full
|> Professor and chairman of the Art department, I figure he knows what he's
|> talking about.
Ah so you here suggest that since your art history professor knows
what he is talking about his pronounciation of the names of artists
must be OK. Native speakers who disagree with the way artists' names
are pronounced are wrong. That's interesting.
|> B) If you pronounced it as "Van CHoCH", a lot of people would not know you
|> were talking about a Post-Impressionist painter, they'd think you were choking
|> and attempt to give you the Heimlich manuver.
Although somewhat charged I could agree with this one, though with regret.
|> C) A lot of people who would know what you were talking about when you said
|> "Van CHoCH", would think you're a twit who has a ridiculous affectation of
|> overpronouncing foreign words.
But then again foreigners do, don't they? I must say that it is a
Anglosaxon habit to UNDERpronounce foreign words. Rather then
wondering what the correct pronounciation would be the pronouncation
of foreign words is settled by a combination of consensus and imagination.
This however does not keep me from affectionately loving British
accents and the English language in general.
Niek.
--
Niek van der Donk, Tilburg University
S S Sturrock
>B) If you pronounced it as "Van CHoCH", a lot of people would not know you
>were talking about a Post-Impressionist painter, they'd think you were choking
>and attempt to give you the Heimlich manuver.
So, since clearly Americans are unable to pronounce the `ch' sound they
would infact attempt to give you the Heimli' manoeuver. :-)
Ho hum.......
--
\. That is biological Captain! | Shane Sturrock, BRU, Darwin Building,
(}:-( -- Mr Sturrock | University of Edinburgh, Scotland,
/' | Untied Kingdom (Split now!) :-)
Dave du Vergier
|> |> Well, my $0.02--
|> |> In America, the proper way to pronounce the name is "Van Go". This may not be
|> |> the way the name would be pronounced in the original Dutch, but this is the way
|> |> most English speakers do it, & I don't see anything wrong with it. I base this
|> |> assertion on three facts:
|>
|> |> B) If you pronounced it as "Van CHoCH", a lot of people would not know you
|> |> were talking about a Post-Impressionist painter, they'd think you were choking
|> |> and attempt to give you the Heimlich manuver.
I'd say that 'Van Go' is a purely American pronounciation. Everyone I
know pronounces it 'Van Goff'. Attempting a pronounciation closer to
the original is probably bad for your larynx if you're not used to
speaking Dutch !
DdV
Peter Cockerell
: like "a-boat" (with a diphtong, just like the Scots would do). Is that
: done in the whole of Canada and the USA, or is it regional?
: Kind regards,
: Niek.
: PS.
: Statement: Dutch names are never pronounced properly on British
: and American television. While "Beethoven" is never pronounced as
: "Beathoven" (with the oven as in "oven") and "Chagall" is not called "jekkyl" Rembrandt is always
: pronounced "Rem-brand" instead of "Rem-braant", not to mention
: "Vincent van Goch" which often is pronounced "Vinsnt van Go" which
: does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
: starting with the same "ch").
This last one is definitely an out and out Americanism. Possibly they
think he was French or something. I suppose the problem is that a lot
of people learn at least the rudiments of German or French at High
School, but Dutch doesn't usually figure very high on the curriculum.
I've actually met some Dutch people who prefer speaking English to
their own language because it sounds nicer...
: But anyway ... it gives the Dutch a
: whole new look at their artists.
At least van Gogh got a song written about him :-) Oh yes, in
Cambridge, England, there's a truck rental company called Vincent Van
Hire. It always makes me laugh...
: --
: Niek van der Donk, Tilburg University
: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: en zij trokken op naar Jericho,
: alwaar zij de muren bestormden
: en zich op de maagden wierpen
: en kindertjes maakten met houten verdommenisjes
: opdat zij in het water zouden blijven drijven
: en zij riepen "Hosanna, hosanna, d'n beer is los"
That's exactly what I always say too :-)
: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Regards,
Pete
Giles Nelson
Other stuff deleted....
>
> Well, my $0.02--
> In America, the proper way to pronounce the name is "Van Go". This may not be
> the way the name would be pronounced in the original Dutch, but this is the way
> most English speakers do it, & I don't see anything wrong with it. I base this
> assertion on three facts:
>
> A)My Art History professor pronounced it as "Van Go", and since he is a full
> Professor and chairman of the Art department, I figure he knows what he's
> talking about.
> B) If you pronounced it as "Van CHoCH", a lot of people would not know you
> were talking about a Post-Impressionist painter, they'd think you were choking
> and attempt to give you the Heimlich manuver.
> C) A lot of people who would know what you were talking about when you said
> "Van CHoCH", would think you're a twit who has a ridiculous affectation of
> overpronouncing foreign words.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Amy Morrison-- ajmor...@uccs.edu (for now)
> nirv...@ctnet.org (shortly)
> "Funny, Canada could have had British government, French culture and American
> proficiency. So how did you wind up with French government, American culture
> and British proficiency?"
> --J. Jones & W. Wilson, An Incomplete Education
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Point C would also apply using Van Go which to me sounds ridiculous and
rather ignorant. Surely some effort should be made to pronounce a person's
name the way his or her fellow nationals would, even if you get it slightly
wroung. It's not difficult to say Van Goch with the ch strung out a little.
Giles Nelson.
ajmor...@happy.uccs.edu
> |> Well, my $0.02--
> |> In America, the proper way to pronounce the name is "Van Go". This may not be
> |> the way the name would be pronounced in the original Dutch, but this is the way
> |> most English speakers do it, & I don't see anything wrong with it. I base this
> |> assertion on three facts:
> |>
> |> A)My Art History professor pronounced it as "Van Go", and since he is a full
> |> Professor and chairman of the Art department, I figure he knows what he's
> |> talking about.
>
> Ah so you here suggest that since your art history professor knows
> what he is talking about his pronounciation of the names of artists
> must be OK. Native speakers who disagree with the way artists' names
> are pronounced are wrong. That's interesting.
America. Over there you pronounce it differently. I feel the only reason to
pronounce in the Dutch way, when one American is talking to other Americans, is
to be a pretentious snob. If an American were speaking to a Dutch person, they
would hjave a better reason for pronouncing it in the Dutch manner--to be
understood.
N.M. Wierda
>From: s64...@kub.nl (Niek van der Donk)
>Subject: Re: Van Gogh
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 09:33:22 GMT
>
>|> C) A lot of people who would know what you were talking about when you said
>|> "Van CHoCH", would think you're a twit who has a ridiculous affectation of
>|> overpronouncing foreign words.
>
>But then again foreigners do, don't they? I must say that it is a
>Anglosaxon habit to UNDERpronounce foreign words. Rather then
>wondering what the correct pronounciation would be the pronouncation
>of foreign words is settled by a combination of consensus and imagination.
>
words in English, or when they pronounce words or names that are foreign in
English, but not in their native language, correctly when speaking English,
or just English in general? what is wrong with trying to pronounce foreign
words or/and names correctly anyway?
>This however does not keep me from affectionately loving British
>accents and the English language in general.
>
I can pronounce 'mushy peas' with a perfect northern accent and I'm
really pleased with that. and my English boyfriend can pronounce
'Groningen' correctly (apart from the G) and he must be the only native
speaker of English in the world who can do that. I'm very proud of him.
>Niek.
>
Nynke Wierda, University of Groningen, The Netherlands
Simon Furey
Wierda) wrote:
> I can pronounce 'mushy peas' with a perfect northern accent and I'm
> really pleased with that. and my English boyfriend can pronounce
> 'Groningen' correctly (apart from the G) and he must be the only native
> speaker of English in the world who can do that. I'm very proud of him.
>
> >Niek.
Not true! Our company, Logica, has a Netherlands subsidiary with an office
in Groningen. So we have quite a few Brits who can say the G-word properly
(I do not include myself!). But don't ask about Danish...
Simon Furey
dolman jayne
: most English speakers do it, & I don't see anything wrong with it. I base this
: assertion on three facts:
I myself pronounce it "Van Goch" (with a throaty ch) which I suppose is half
right. I wonder whether this has anything to do with the fact that this
sounding of "ch" is very common in Welsh.
I have never heard a Brit pronounce this name as "Van Go" but some do say
"Van Goff"!!
Jayne Dolman
S.R. Keynton
|>
|> This however does not keep me from affectionately loving British
|> accents and the English language in general.
... but your pronounciation of the word pronunciation is a bit off.
Poodle tip old fart.
--
Steve Keynton sr...@ucs.cam.ac.uk Tel: 0223 334682
M.P. Leeuwangh
Wow! I've seen some spellings of "manoeuvre" before but that one really takes
it.
-- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
\\\// Martin Leeuwangh I'net: u2...@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk
(o o) Dept of Pure Maths or: mp0u...@liverpool.ac.uk
---ooO-( )-Ooo--- Liverpool University, PO Box 147, Liverpool, L69 3BX
V
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
M.P. Leeuwangh
> So, since clearly Americans are unable to pronounce the `ch' sound they
> would infact attempt to give you the Heimli' manoeuver. :-)
^^
Hey, I know this isn't alt.english-usage or whatever but I sincerely hope
you're either kidding or American.
Philip Grivell
> : Kind regards,
>
> : Niek.
>
> : PS.
> : Statement: Dutch names are never pronounced properly on British
> : and American television. While "Beethoven" is never pronounced as
> : "Beathoven" (with the oven as in "oven") and "Chagall" is not called "jekkyl" Rembrandt is always
> : pronounced "Rem-brand" instead of "Rem-braant", not to mention
> : "Vincent van Goch" which often is pronounced "Vinsnt van Go" which
> : does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
> : starting with the same "ch").
Since when have Beethoven and Chagall been Dutch??
Philip
PS The Dutch quite regularly make a cock-up of the English pronounciations on telly!
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: > Niek van der Donk (s64...@kub.nl) wrote:
: > (stuff deleted)
: > : Kind regards,
: >
: > : Niek.
: >
: > : PS.
: > : Statement: Dutch names are never pronounced properly on British
: > : and American television.
You should try talking to USians about philosophy - they have fascinating
views on the thoughts of a chap called "dess-cart-ease" (Descartes)
So much for pathos
Cheers, Kev
David Morning
>In article <1994Jan13....@kub.nl>, s64...@kub.nl (Niek van der Donk) writes:
>> |> A)My Art History professor pronounced it as "Van Go", and since he is a full
>> |> Professor and chairman of the Art department, I figure he knows what he's
>> |> talking about.
>>
>> Ah so you here suggest that since your art history professor knows
>> what he is talking about his pronounciation of the names of artists
>> must be OK. Native speakers who disagree with the way artists' names
>> are pronounced are wrong. That's interesting.
>No, I did not suggest that. I said that that is the way we pronounce it in
>America. Over there you pronounce it differently. I feel the only reason to
>pronounce in the Dutch way, when one American is talking to other Americans, is
>to be a pretentious snob. If an American were speaking to a Dutch person, they
>would hjave a better reason for pronouncing it in the Dutch manner--to be
>understood.
Yes but you said that most English speakers, as opposed to most Americans,
pronounced it Van Go. That is clearly untrue. It is also worth pointing out
that the name Gough is quite common in Britain, the most well known being
Roger McGough a Liverpool poet and relative of Paul McCartney. They do not
pronounce there name 'Go' and wouldn't thank you if you did. Other notable
'Gough's are Richard Gough, captain of Glasgow Rangers and one time the
Scottish national football team.
>"Funny, Canada could have had British government, French culture and American
>proficiency. So how did you wind up with French government, American culture
>and British proficiency?"
Just like the Euro-joke about the difference between heaven and hell...
In heaven, the French are the cooks, the British the police and the Germans
the engineers.
In hell The French are the engineers, the British the cooks and the Germans
the police.
--
============================================================================
| Where are they now? | Dave Morning |
| No.82..............Don van Vliet | d...@dcs.gla.ac.uk |
============================================================================
Xian the Desk Lizard
~So, since clearly Americans are unable to pronounce the `ch' sound they
~would infact attempt to give you the Heimli' manoeuver. :-)
Surely if van Gogh is "Van Go", Heimlich is "HeimLee"... or are
Americans more worried about German disapproval than Dutch...?
Xian
Xian the Desk Lizard
~But then again foreigners do, don't they? I must say that it is a
~Anglosaxon habit to UNDERpronounce foreign words. Rather then
~wondering what the correct pronounciation would be the pronouncation
~of foreign words is settled by a combination of consensus and imagination.
At least the English try for it, in most cases (except Majorca,
perhaps!) - it's the Americans who think they are so sophisticated, and
who assume that by being bigger than everyone else, they can force their
lunatic standards upon the rest of the world.
Unfortunately, it seems that in the latter, they may be right...
Xian
David Morning
>Niek van der Donk (s64...@kub.nl) wrote:
>: Sometimes I hear Canadians and Americans pronounce "about" something
>: like "a-boat" (with a diphtong, just like the Scots would do). Is that
It's called a glottal stop as in 'A pun a bu^ter'. It's mainly West of
Scotland - Glasgow environs.
>: Statement: Dutch names are never pronounced properly on British
>: and American television. While "Beethoven" is never pronounced as
>: "Beathoven" (with the oven as in "oven") and "Chagall" is not called "jekkyl" Rembrandt is always
>: pronounced "Rem-brand" instead of "Rem-braant", not to mention
>: "Vincent van Goch" which often is pronounced "Vinsnt van Go" which
>: does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
>: starting with the same "ch").
Well I don't know about American programs and I wasn't aware that Beethoven
was Dutch but I say Rem-brant and vaan Goch (as in loch). I can't recall
anyone in British TV referring to van Go.
Susan F Bradley
>Xian
I find this whole argument just a little silly. Most languages tend to put
their own pronunciations on foreign place names, and even surnames, to some
extent. It seems to be somewhat random, but almost everyone does it to some
words, at least. I never heard anyone in Britain refer to the capital of
France as "Pah REE" and my British friends all insisted that the state in
which Detroit is found is "mitch i gun," that city in southern California
is "lahs AN guh LEEZ" and that city in Missouri which is on the Mississippi
River is "Saint Looie" (The fact that I'm American did not seem to them to
be sufficient qualification to know the correct pronunciations of those
places.) Every English-speaking person I've ever known of, regardless of
nationality, refers to that huge country which gave us Tolstoy, Lenin, etc.
as "ruh shuh" not "roh SEE uh" as its inhabitants do.
I could sit here and think of a few more examples, but I really just want to
say that bickering over the way a word in language x is pronounced by speakers
of language y when those people are speaking their own language is really
petty. Now, if you'd complained about Americans saying "van go" while
speaking _Dutch_, I'd have heaps of sympathy, but not when we're speaking
American English.
--
Sooz Bradley America was thus clearly top nation, and History
W.E.N.C.H. came to a .
ISU chapter president --Sellar & Yeatman
Niek van der Donk
|> > Niek van der Donk (s64...@kub.nl) wrote:
|> > (stuff deleted)
|> > : Kind regards,
|> >
|> > : Niek.
|> >
|> > : PS.
|> > : Statement: Dutch names are never pronounced properly on British
|> > : and American television. While "Beethoven" is never pronounced as
|> > : "Beathoven" (with the oven as in "oven") and "Chagall" is not called "jekkyl" Rembrandt is always
|> > : pronounced "Rem-brand" instead of "Rem-braant", not to mention
|> > : "Vincent van Goch" which often is pronounced "Vinsnt van Go" which
|> > : does not very much sound like "Vin-cent vaan Choch" (as in "loch",
|> > : starting with the same "ch").
|>
|> Since when have Beethoven and Chagall been Dutch??
|>
Silly question. Read again.
|>
|> PS The Dutch quite regularly make a cock-up of the English pronounciations on telly!
Could you mention some examples of that?
Niek.
--
Niek van der Donk, Tilburg University
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
en zij trokken op naar Jericho,
alwaar zij de muren bestormden
en zich op de maagden wierpen
en kindertjes maakten met houten verdommenisjes
opdat zij in het water zouden blijven drijven
en zij riepen "Hosanna, hosanna, d'n beer is los"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Niek van der Donk
|> In <1994Jan13.1...@bradford.ac.uk> C.D.A....@bradford.ac.uk (Xian the Desk Lizard) writes:
|>
|> Every English-speaking person I've ever known of, regardless of
|> nationality, refers to that huge country which gave us Tolstoy, Lenin, etc.
|> as "ruh shuh" not "roh SEE uh" as its inhabitants do.
|>
For this there historical reasons, there will be few languages where
the (pronounciation) names of countries and cities are not adapted to that language.
How about (for a start):
Italian: Milano
German: Mailand
Dutch: Milaan
In most countries however it is at least tried to pronounce the names
of persons properly. After all a person's name should be pronounced as
that person would do, otherwise you could just as well give everybody
a nickname.
|> I could sit here and think of a few more examples, but I really just want to
|> say that bickering over the way a word in language x is pronounced by speakers
|> of language y when those people are speaking their own language is really
|> petty. Now, if you'd complained about Americans saying "van go" while
|> speaking _Dutch_, I'd have heaps of sympathy, but not when we're speaking
|> American English.
|>
So why not call "Amsterdam" "Glubble" or "Lopsee"? It is your
language, not mine.
|> --
|> Sooz Bradley America was thus clearly top nation, and History
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
That might explain something.
Regards,
Calum Benson
>On Thu, 13 Jan 94 09:33:22 GMT, Niek van der Donk gave us:
>~But then again foreigners do, don't they? I must say that it is a
>~Anglosaxon habit to UNDERpronounce foreign words. Rather then
>~wondering what the correct pronounciation would be the pronouncation
>~of foreign words is settled by a combination of consensus and imagination.
>
>At least the English try for it, in most cases
* Cough * Since when?
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
|Calum Benson | email: cal...@logcam.co.uk |
|Logica Cambridge (User Interface Div.) | Tel: (0223) 66343 x4825 |
|Betjeman House +------------------+----------------------------|
|104 Hills Road | " I just wouldn't know a single word to say |
|Cambridge CB2 1LQ | If I flattened all my vowels and I threw |
|UK | the R away." (The Proclaimers) |
+--------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
Calum Benson
>In article <1994Jan13.1...@bradford.ac.uk> C.D.A....@bradford.ac.uk (Xian the Desk Lizard) writes:
>>On Thu, 13 Jan 94 09:33:22 GMT, Niek van der Donk gave us:
>
BTW, that's cough pr. coff, not cough pr. co or cough pr. choch.
Slainte,
Calum.
Dave du Vergier
|> In article <sooz.75...@vincent1.iastate.edu>, so...@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley) writes:
|> |> In <1994Jan13.1...@bradford.ac.uk> C.D.A....@bradford.ac.uk (Xian the Desk Lizard) writes:
|> |>
|>
|> |> Every English-speaking person I've ever known of, regardless of
|> |> nationality, refers to that huge country which gave us Tolstoy, Lenin, etc.
|> |> as "ruh shuh" not "roh SEE uh" as its inhabitants do.
|> |>
|> For this there historical reasons, there will be few languages where
|> the (pronounciation) names of countries and cities are not adapted to that language.
|> How about (for a start):
|>
|> Italian: Milano
|> German: Mailand
|> Dutch: Milaan
|>
While watching a West Germany game on TV during the '88 European championships,
a couple of German friends were taking the piss out of the way the English
commentator was pronouncing the names of some of the German players, such as
"voller" for Vo"ller - when he happened to mention "Munich" they almost fell
out of their seats, until I pointed out that this was the English name of the
city, rather than a hopeless attempt at "Mu"nchen" !
DdV
David Morning
Which reminds me of Jack Charlton commentating on a game some years back
who refered to a player as chumpy-platt-lass. For the life of me, I can't
remember who the player actually was - I think is was a South American -
but the pronunciation stuck in my mind as it wasn't even remotely close!
(might have been Cubillas or something like that)
--
============================================================================
| Where are they now? | Dave Morning |
| No.22...................Bros | d...@dcs.gla.ac.uk |
============================================================================
William Davenant
>views on the thoughts of a chap called "dess-cart-ease" (Descartes)
What! I never heard anyone EVER say this. Who were you talking to? some
bumpkin in a field?
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: In most countries however it is at least tried to pronounce the names
: of persons properly. After all a person's name should be pronounced as
: that person would do, otherwise you could just as well give everybody
: a nickname.
What about Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, Shanghainese, etc.).
Ask a friendly Chinese-knowing person how Margaret Thatcher, John
Major, Helmut Kohl, Bill Clinton, etc. are referred to.
Or, for that matter, think of Jesus Christ or Julius Caesar
or Alexander the Great in the languages that you know.
Peter Tan
Simon Furey
Morning) wrote:
> Just like the Euro-joke about the difference between heaven and hell...
> In heaven, the French are the cooks, the British the police and the Germans
> the engineers.
> In hell The French are the engineers, the British the cooks and the Germans
> the police.
>
The version I had substituted the word "cleaners" for engineers, and in
both cases the Government was Italian. Make of that what you will, but it
was told to me by an Italian...
Simon Furey
*-----------------------------*
reality is only one person's opinion
*-----------------------------*
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: >You should try talking to USians about philosophy - they have fascinating
: What! I never heard anyone EVER say this. Who were you talking to? some
: bumpkin in a field?
Unfortunately not, the accused was a junior taking a philosophy course.
I do generally find it a tad difficult finding a "bumpkin in a field" in
Baltimore, but the rest of the population seem to make up for it.
Another classic, my boss didn't know Portugal had a coast-line.
I did laugh! Kev
Susan F Bradley
>I did laugh! Kev
Kev,
Maybe it's just Marylanders. I've never heard _anyone_ pronounce Descartes
that way and I can't imagine anyone not knowing that Portugal has a coast.
Then again, maybe we bumpkins are smarter than people think.
--
Sooz Bradley I've been around...well, all right, I might not
W.E.N.C.H. have been around, but I've been....nearby.
ISU chapter president -from "The Mary Tyler Moore Show"
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: >Another classic, my boss didn't know Portugal had a coast-line.
: >I did laugh! Kev
: Kev,
: Maybe it's just Marylanders. I've never heard _anyone_ pronounce Descartes
: that way and I can't imagine anyone not knowing that Portugal has a coast.
: Then again, maybe we bumpkins are smarter than people think.
You may have a point there! I have to say though that all the accused are
extremely intelligent people - these are just isolated incidents of total
ignorance. We can't all know everything.
I'm sure I've made some right royal cock-ups which are being posted in
other groups!!!
It makes for conversation though. Cheers for now, Kev
William Davenant
>: bumpkin in a field?
>
>Unfortunately not, the accused was a junior taking a philosophy course.
Ah, but this is University of Maryland, Baltimore, and we have a product of
Baltimore/Washington, PC schools most likely.
>I do generally find it a tad difficult finding a "bumpkin in a field" in
>Baltimore, but the rest of the population seem to make up for it.
You can take the light rail toward Glen Burnie and pass some fields.
Himself used to live in the Baltimore (aka Bawlmore)/Washington (aka
Warshingtun) area.
>Another classic, my boss didn't know Portugal had a coast-line.
Careful, careful. You're boss may be reading. Are you tenured?
William Davenant
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC) <krob...@umbc.edu> wrote:
>
> You may have a point there! I have to say though that all the accused are
> extremely intelligent people - these are just isolated incidents of total
> ignorance. We can't all know everything.
>
> I'm sure I've made some right royal cock-ups which are being posted in
> other groups!!!
Well, since you mention it, you did spell "droll" wrong a few posts back
(you wrote "drole,") but I do so hate spelling flames. ;-)