> Brent
> http://OutskirtsPress.com

> Sylvia <Syl...@HarpyCastle.net> wrote in message ws:<3DC06F77.EFAF0...@HarpyCastle.net>...
> > "OutskirtsPress.com" top-posted, messing up the line of attributions,
> > and wrote:

> > > Granted, some of them are scams, but not all of them. I know because I
> > > started a publishing company out of my love for books and the English
> > > language. Digital, subsidy, and self-publishing are all viable
> > > alternatives to traditional publishing. It depends upon the situation.
> > > There are over 25 million writers in the United States, and only 2% of
> > > them are paid novelists.

> > Ooooh! Oooooh! Let *me* say it this time!!!

> > Ahem.

> > Cite, please.

> > > So, writers don't get paid. Novelists do.

> > <waiting for roars of laughter to subside>  What bullshit. Tell that to
> > the journalists, copywriters, non-fiction book writers, technical
> > writers, speech writers, etc. world wide who write for a living.

> > ==
> > Sylvia  (Golly, that felt good)

>I will grant this.   Things are changing in the publishing
>world, though we have quite a few posters in writing groups
>who are print-world types through-and-through and choose to
>continue to act as though nothing important at all has
>occurred in publishing as a result of the coming of the net.  
>Of course, that hide-bound mentality means that they harbor
>the print-world contempt for "vanity press" and insist that
>no respectable piece of writing can ever be self-published.  
>I certainly disagree.   Nonetheless, I have to add the
>caveat that the smoke still has not cleared regarding the
>best route to follow in net publishing.   And I certainly
>agree with the warnings some posters issued earlier on
>this thread:  With no reader recognition and no marketing
>plan, ebook self-publishers are very likely throwing their
>money away if they pay someone $1,500 or whatever to
>publish their work.   After all, there are a ton of self-
>publishers selling books on the net right now--did you
>ever buy any of them?   Or do you still like to go to
>a bookstore where you can thumb through the book you
>are thinking about buying?  Even so, I believe the
>natural state for writers is a self-published one.  
>After all, if you look at the history of printing, you
>will see that publishers came into being because most
>writers could not afford their own printing presses,
>and then later the press owners and other investors
>spawned an entirely separate business, that of the
>publisher.  Those who wish to challenge me on this
>are advised to read THE COMING OF THE BOOK:  THE
>IMPACT OF PRINTING 1450-1800 by Lucien Febvre and
>Henri-Jean Martin.  While it is clear enough the way
>the power of publishers became so entrenched, writing
>is not about printers and publishers, at least that's
>how I see things.   It is about readers and writers.  
>Any entity coming between them should be viewed with
>suspicion.    Still, I am under no illusion that the
>centuries-old grip publishers have on the writing
>profession will disappear overnight.   But with the
>net making the cost of printing/publishing so cheap,
>it is certainly possible that the traditional publishing
>model could in fact fade away or morph into something
>where the writers have far more power over their own
>professional destinies than they ever could hope for
>in the traditional print world.  

>By the way, despite the fact that many posters
>claimed to have thrown in the towel regarding their
>aspirations for their future in net publishing when
>Steven King announced he was getting out of it,
>that statement by Mr. King did not trouble me.
>After all, what a book-sales mega-star like
>Mr. King might consider a "successful book,"
>would probably provide enough income to support
>thirty other writers of more modest spending
>habits, for at least one year.  Unless you feel
>you need to spend like a Steven King, you should
>not be dissuaded by his conclusion that net
>publishing was not worth the fuss because it
>could not at this time bring him enough revenue.
>a.g.b-p.

>> Brent
>> http://OutskirtsPress.com

>> Sylvia <Syl...@HarpyCastle.net> wrote in message ws:<3DC06F77.EFAF0...@HarpyCastle.net>...
>> > "OutskirtsPress.com" top-posted, messing up the line of attributions,
>> > and wrote:

>> > > Granted, some of them are scams, but not all of them. I know because I
>> > > started a publishing company out of my love for books and the English
>> > > language. Digital, subsidy, and self-publishing are all viable
>> > > alternatives to traditional publishing. It depends upon the situation.

>> > > There are over 25 million writers in the United States, and only 2% of
>> > > them are paid novelists.

>> > Ooooh! Oooooh! Let *me* say it this time!!!

>> > Ahem.

>> > Cite, please.

>> > > So, writers don't get paid. Novelists do.

>> > <waiting for roars of laughter to subside>  What bullshit. Tell that to
>> > the journalists, copywriters, non-fiction book writers, technical
>> > writers, speech writers, etc. world wide who write for a living.

>> > ==
>> > Sylvia  (Golly, that felt good)

> An essay on democratization of information sources in black metal:

> http://www.anus.com/metal/zine/index.html#editorial

> On 2 Nov 2002 12:16:10 -0800, williampal...@prodigy.net (William
> Palmer) wrote:

> >williampal...@prodigy.net (William Palmer) wrote in message <news:cbc76035.0211012144.37681529@posting.google.com>...
> >> br...@outskirtspress.com (OutskirtsPress.com) wrote in message <news:b285024d.0211011445.66f5b76@posting.google.com>...
> >> The 2% I mentioned in my previous post includes those fields, Sylvia.
> >> The fact that I referred to them an novelists is a matter of
> >> semantics, but doesn't change the fact that people who are paid for
> >> their writing fall into an extreme, extreme minority. For the
> >> remainder, pursuing digital publishing is sometimes an appealing
> >> alternative to, say, languishing unread and exhibiting bitterness over
> >> usegroups.

> >I will grant this.   Things are changing in the publishing
> >world, though we have quite a few posters in writing groups
> >who are print-world types through-and-through and choose to
> >continue to act as though nothing important at all has
> >occurred in publishing as a result of the coming of the net.
> >Of course, that hide-bound mentality means that they harbor
> >the print-world contempt for "vanity press" and insist that
> >no respectable piece of writing can ever be self-published.
> >I certainly disagree.   Nonetheless, I have to add the
> >caveat that the smoke still has not cleared regarding the
> >best route to follow in net publishing.   And I certainly
> >agree with the warnings some posters issued earlier on
> >this thread:  With no reader recognition and no marketing
> >plan, ebook self-publishers are very likely throwing their
> >money away if they pay someone $1,500 or whatever to
> >publish their work.   After all, there are a ton of self-
> >publishers selling books on the net right now--did you
> >ever buy any of them?   Or do you still like to go to
> >a bookstore where you can thumb through the book you
> >are thinking about buying?  Even so, I believe the
> >natural state for writers is a self-published one.
> >After all, if you look at the history of printing, you
> >will see that publishers came into being because most
> >writers could not afford their own printing presses,
> >and then later the press owners and other investors
> >spawned an entirely separate business, that of the
> >publisher.  Those who wish to challenge me on this
> >are advised to read THE COMING OF THE BOOK:  THE
> >IMPACT OF PRINTING 1450-1800 by Lucien Febvre and
> >Henri-Jean Martin.  While it is clear enough the way
> >the power of publishers became so entrenched, writing
> >is not about printers and publishers, at least that's
> >how I see things.   It is about readers and writers.
> >Any entity coming between them should be viewed with
> >suspicion.    Still, I am under no illusion that the
> >centuries-old grip publishers have on the writing
> >profession will disappear overnight.   But with the
> >net making the cost of printing/publishing so cheap,
> >it is certainly possible that the traditional publishing
> >model could in fact fade away or morph into something
> >where the writers have far more power over their own
> >professional destinies than they ever could hope for
> >in the traditional print world.

> >By the way, despite the fact that many posters
> >claimed to have thrown in the towel regarding their
> >aspirations for their future in net publishing when
> >Steven King announced he was getting out of it,
> >that statement by Mr. King did not trouble me.
> >After all, what a book-sales mega-star like
> >Mr. King might consider a "successful book,"
> >would probably provide enough income to support
> >thirty other writers of more modest spending
> >habits, for at least one year.  Unless you feel
> >you need to spend like a Steven King, you should
> >not be dissuaded by his conclusion that net
> >publishing was not worth the fuss because it
> >could not at this time bring him enough revenue.
> >a.g.b-p.

> >> Brent
> >> http://OutskirtsPress.com

> >> Sylvia <Syl...@HarpyCastle.net> wrote in message ws:<3DC06F77.EFAF0...@HarpyCastle.net>...
> >> > "OutskirtsPress.com" top-posted, messing up the line of attributions,
> >> > and wrote:

> >> > > Granted, some of them are scams, but not all of them. I know because I
> >> > > started a publishing company out of my love for books and the English
> >> > > language. Digital, subsidy, and self-publishing are all viable
> >> > > alternatives to traditional publishing. It depends upon the situation.

> >> > > There are over 25 million writers in the United States, and only 2% of
> >> > > them are paid novelists.

> >> > Ooooh! Oooooh! Let *me* say it this time!!!

> >> > Ahem.

> >> > Cite, please.

> >> > > So, writers don't get paid. Novelists do.

> >> > <waiting for roars of laughter to subside>  What bullshit. Tell that to
> >> > the journalists, copywriters, non-fiction book writers, technical
> >> > writers, speech writers, etc. world wide who write for a living.

> >> > ==
> >> > Sylvia  (Golly, that felt good)

> -I-

> Ambient, noise, electronica reviews
> http://www.anus.com/music/

> Death, black and heavy metal reviews
> http://www.anus.com/metal/

> Metal Links
> http://www.metalhaus.com/

> Underground Metal Community
> http://bbs.anus.com/
> http://www.hessian.org/

> Politics & Society
> http://www.necrocapitalist.com/

> -I-

> JOHN DARNIELLE AND RAHUL JOSHI ARE COWARDS

> He had given the Small Press League to me.  I am hereby giving it
> back.  I do not want anything to do with him or his groups anymore.

> More news to follow on my new Small Press group.  So far, it has no
> name.  The Yahoo Group has much of nothing there.  However, at least
> it's a start.
>           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sptempname

> The following transcript is from an instant message this morning:

> skytech_akh: Good morning1
> opbop1: Hello!!! did you see the photos?
> skytech_akh: No
> opbop1: ah! go to my group!
> opbop1: and look in PHOTOS in the file "Party Shots"!!!!
> skytech_akh: I don't have time
> opbop1: too bad!
> opbop1: Patrick really can out cool!
> skytech_akh: can out cool who?
> opbop1: came OUT cool in the photos... thought you had no time...
> opbop1: you could have seen them a dozen times by now
> opbop1: if you don't want to look at them, that's okay! just wanted to
> let
> you know they were there
> opbop1: 180 members of SPL now
> skytech_akh: Umm, excuse me, but I do NOT HAVE TIME. I told you I
> don't
> have time I mean it. "YOu could have seen them a dozen times by now."
> Now
> with all the sh*t I gotta take care of!!
> opbop1: ok! calm down! LOL
> opbop1: I don't care, really! LOL
> skytech_akh: Oh you think you're just so funny.
> skytech_akh: Today is a busy day for me.
> opbop1: whoa... I'm busy too... chill out
> skytech_akh: At least for now.
> opbop1: me too
> skytech_akh: You're busy doing what? You don't have a job and don't
> seem
> to want one. I have to find one, SOON.
> opbop1: that's why i had this IM cut off all night!!! LOL
> skytech_akh: I have to go to all possible resources to find one!
> opbop1: heuy GOD DAMMIT it work... I've been painting for a long time
> skytech_akh: That's not a job.
> opbop1: you don't know all about me and never will
> skytech_akh: Oh really?
> opbop1: f*ck it... I was working before you were born
> skytech_akh: Then why did you give me the SPL if I'm not a friend?
> skytech_akh: Yeah but you're not now!
> opbop1: don't be slinging mud at me
> skytech_akh: I'm not!
> opbop1: nope... painting is a JOB by JOB thing
> opbop1: plus its nobody's GODAMN buisness what I do
> opbop1: sorry
> skytech_akh: How many paintings have you sold? Do you ever have them
> at
> the museum? How come this is the first time I've ever heard that you
> were
> a painter? Isn't it something you should be proud of?
> opbop1: you touched a FUCKING raw nerve
> skytech_akh: you ARE a fucking raw nerve
> opbop1: I don't have to explain myself to anybody...sorry to yell at
> you
> opbop1: just NOBODY pulls that sh*t on me.
> skytech_akh: I'm interested in finding out more about you, what is so
> FUCKING wrong with that?
> opbop1: okay
> skytech_akh: What is so FUCKING wrong with wanting to be somebody's
> friend, and therefore taking an interest in their FUCKING life!
> opbop1: dont slur me and expect me to sit and take it... I'm no pussy.
> skytech_akh: YOU STARTED THIS sh*t
> skytech_akh: I WAS TRYING TO BE A FRIEND
> skytech_akh: YOU OFFENDED ME
> skytech_akh: AND YOU EXPECT ME TO TAKE IT JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE OLD
> ENOUGH
> TO BE MY FATHER? I DON'T THINK SO!
> opbop1: okay this is enough... I'm in no mood for it! LOL
> skytech_akh: f*ck you then!
> opbop1: damn this...
> opbop1: you started it...
> skytech_akh: NO THE HELL I DIDN'T!
> skytech_akh: YOU DID!
> opbop1: f*ck it then
> skytech_akh: f*ck YOU!

> > He had given the Small Press League to me.  I am hereby giving it
> > back.  I do not want anything to do with him or his groups anymore.

> > More news to follow on my new Small Press group.  So far, it has no
> > name.  The Yahoo Group has much of nothing there.  However, at least
> > it's a start.
> >           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sptempname

> > The following transcript is from an instant message this morning:

> > skytech_akh: Good morning1
> > opbop1: Hello!!! did you see the photos?
> > skytech_akh: No
> > opbop1: ah! go to my group!
> > opbop1: and look in PHOTOS in the file "Party Shots"!!!!
> > skytech_akh: I don't have time
> > opbop1: too bad!
> > opbop1: Patrick really can out cool!
> > skytech_akh: can out cool who?
> > opbop1: came OUT cool in the photos... thought you had no time...
> > opbop1: you could have seen them a dozen times by now
> > opbop1: if you don't want to look at them, that's okay! just wanted to
> > let
> > you know they were there
> > opbop1: 180 members of SPL now
> > skytech_akh: Umm, excuse me, but I do NOT HAVE TIME. I told you I
> > don't
> > have time I mean it. "YOu could have seen them a dozen times by now."
> > Now
> > with all the sh*t I gotta take care of!!
> > opbop1: ok! calm down! LOL
> > opbop1: I don't care, really! LOL
> > skytech_akh: Oh you think you're just so funny.
> > skytech_akh: Today is a busy day for me.
> > opbop1: whoa... I'm busy too... chill out
> > skytech_akh: At least for now.
> > opbop1: me too
> > skytech_akh: You're busy doing what? You don't have a job and don't
> > seem
> > to want one. I have to find one, SOON.
> > opbop1: that's why i had this IM cut off all night!!! LOL
> > skytech_akh: I have to go to all possible resources to find one!
> > opbop1: heuy GOD DAMMIT it work... I've been painting for a long time
> > skytech_akh: That's not a job.
> > opbop1: you don't know all about me and never will
> > skytech_akh: Oh really?
> > opbop1: f*ck it... I was working before you were born
> > skytech_akh: Then why did you give me the SPL if I'm not a friend?
> > skytech_akh: Yeah but you're not now!
> > opbop1: don't be slinging mud at me
> > skytech_akh: I'm not!
> > opbop1: nope... painting is a JOB by JOB thing
> > opbop1: plus its nobody's GODAMN buisness what I do
> > opbop1: sorry
> > skytech_akh: How many paintings have you sold? Do you ever have them
> > at
> > the museum? How come this is the first time I've ever heard that you
> > were
> > a painter? Isn't it something you should be proud of?
> > opbop1: you touched a FUCKING raw nerve
> > skytech_akh: you ARE a fucking raw nerve
> > opbop1: I don't have to explain myself to anybody...sorry to yell at
> > you
> > opbop1: just NOBODY pulls that sh*t on me.
> > skytech_akh: I'm interested in finding out more about you, what is so
> > FUCKING wrong with that?
> > opbop1: okay
> > skytech_akh: What is so FUCKING wrong with wanting to be somebody's
> > friend, and therefore taking an interest in their FUCKING life!
> > opbop1: dont slur me and expect me to sit and take it... I'm no pussy.
> > skytech_akh: YOU STARTED THIS sh*t
> > skytech_akh: I WAS TRYING TO BE A FRIEND
> > skytech_akh: YOU OFFENDED ME
> > skytech_akh: AND YOU EXPECT ME TO TAKE IT JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE OLD
> > ENOUGH
> > TO BE MY FATHER? I DON'T THINK SO!
> > opbop1: okay this is enough... I'm in no mood for it! LOL
> > skytech_akh: f*ck you then!
> > opbop1: damn this...
> > opbop1: you started it...
> > skytech_akh: NO THE HELL I DIDN'T!
> > skytech_akh: YOU DID!
> > opbop1: f*ck it then
> > skytech_akh: f*ck YOU!

> Fuck both of you!!!!!!!!!!