Err Pronunciation
frank green
"air"?
MC
"frank green" <fran...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
> "air"?
Sounds a bit Scottish to me.
John Dean
> Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing
> "err" "air"?
I wouldn't do it myself, but I suppose some might argue that, since it
derives from Latin 'errare' and few pronounce that as Urr-arry, such
pronunciation is faithful to the original. Not that that's a particularly
good argument.
My experience is that 'air' is the pronunciation favoured by snobs. Why they
would pick on that word I dunno.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Dave Swindell
>Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
>"air"?
>
--
Dave OSOS#24 dswindel...@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies
Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one
Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one
Spehro Pefhany
<dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <1mGEb.603930$Fm2.547602@attbi_s04>, frank green
><fran...@comcast.net> writes
>>Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
>>"air"?
>>
>Yes, if you are a Liverpudlian.
Err, I've never heard any other pronunciation. What more justification
is required?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
meirman
<fran...@comcast.net> posted:
>Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
>"air"?
That's the pronunciation most people hear, so that's what they say.
Don't be to hard on people who mispronounce, or you'll have no defense
when you find out what words you mispronounce. :)
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years
Martin Ambuhl
> Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
> "air"?
errable
errand
errant
errata
erratum
Errol
(for some) erroneous
error
bite me.
--
Martin Ambuhl
Harvey Van Sickle
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:08:33 +0000, the renowned Dave Swindell
><dswindel...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <1mGEb.603930$Fm2.547602@attbi_s04>, frank green
>> <fran...@comcast.net> writes
>>> Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for
>>> pronouncing "err" "air"?
>>>
>> Yes, if you are a Liverpudlian.
>
> Err, I've never heard any other pronunciation. What more
> justification is required?
Same here...
(Urrur? Urroneous? Alien.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
meirman
<john...@frag.lineone.net> posted:
>frank green wrote:
>> Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing
>> "err" "air"?
>
>I wouldn't do it myself, but I suppose some might argue that, since it
>derives from Latin 'errare' and few pronounce that as Urr-arry, such
>pronunciation is faithful to the original. Not that that's a particularly
>good argument.
>My experience is that 'air' is the pronunciation favoured by snobs. Why they
"Air" might be acceptable, at least these days, but if they want to be
snobs, don't they have to pronounce it correctly, "er"?
Or do they think air is better than airer?
>would pick on that word I dunno.
Adrian Bailey
news:1mGEb.603930$Fm2.547602@attbi_s04...
> Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
"air"?
For me, and a lot of English people, there's a problem: I (we) can't
pronounce "err" or "erred" with the sound I/we use in "error", "Eric", etc.,
so a choice has to be made between "ur(d)" and "air(d)". It's Hobson's
choice. The sound "ur" is ugly ("He erred on the side of caution, or was it
on Capital FM?"); the "air" pronunciation is ridiculous. ("To err is human,
but to allow your bedlinen to get musty is animal behaviour.")
Adrian
Robert Lieblich
>
> Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
> "air"?
The answer is yes, many people find justification for pronouncing
"err" as "air." Among them, it appears, are the editors of the
following online dictionaries, all of whom report it as an
unexceptionable pronounciation:
Cambridge
Merriam-Webster
American Heritage
Infoplease
(URLs omitted, since the ones I supply frank green don't seem to
work)
I'm sure that many a hardcopy dictionary will give you the same
result. And of course there's the analogy from "unerring."
I wonder why anyone would pronounce "err" as if it were a grunt
uttered by a speaker stalling for time.
--
Bob Lieblich
Not erring
Robert Lieblich
>
> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:14:37 GMT "frank green"
> <fran...@comcast.net> posted:
>
> >Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
> >"air"?
>
> That's the pronunciation most people hear, so that's what they say.
>
> Don't be to hard on people who mispronounce,
What do you mean "mispronounce," white man? Am I the only reader of
AEU who can look up a word in an online dictionary?
--
Bob Lieblich
I expected better of you, Meirman
frank green
"Martin Ambuhl" <mam...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gJIEb.1442$IM3...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> frank green wrote:
>
> > Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing
"err"
> > "air"?
>
> errable
> errand
> errant
> errata
> erratum
> Errol
> (for some) erroneous
> error
>
> bite me.
Not so good.
>
> --
> Martin Ambuhl
>
frank green
"Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:awMEb.9430$C71....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
frank green
"Robert Lieblich" <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3FE3C8A1...@Verizon.net...
Just so you know, the pronunciation is "ur" with a tilde over the u.
Robert Lieblich
You are too kind, frank. Are you planning to write the editors of
all those dictionaries to tell them that they have erred?
--
Bob Lieblich
And why don't you snip the sigs?
Dena Jo
> My experience is that 'air' is the pronunciation favoured by
> snobs. Why they would pick on that word I dunno.
My Leftpondian experience is that "air" is the pronunciation favored by
everyone except me and a handful of others.
--
Dena Jo, who says "fort" for forte. Okay, okay, I lied. In reality I
say "strong suit" because I hate having people think I've mispronounced
a word when, in fact, I've pronounced it correctly. Bruschetta,
anyone?
Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.
Dave Swindell
Ambuhl <mam...@earthlink.net> writes
Dr Robin Bignall
Bob, it does depend on where you come from. In Nottingham 'err' rhymes
exactly with 'her'. It sounds nothing like 'air'.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
Robert Lieblich
I know that. Robin. I was addressing frank green. Subtlety does
not work with him.
There are plenty of ways to pronounce "err." Several are correct.
(Example of a wrong pronunciation of "err" -- "cat").
--
Bob Lieblich
I wonder how long this recrudescence of frank will last
meirman
Lieblich <Robert....@Verizon.net> posted:
Better? I believe you mean more like you think. It's a matter of
perspective. I think it's been pretty clear I'm proscriptivist but
you and most dictionaries are descriptivist.
I think you would do better to judge people on their adherance to
their own standards rather than yours, when their own standards are
reasonable and not malicious.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=err
"Usage Note: The pronunciation (ûr) for the word err is
traditional, but the pronunciation (r) has gained ground in recent
years, perhaps owing to influence from errant and error, and must now
be regarded as an acceptable variant. The Usage Panel was split on the
matter: 56 percent preferred (ûr), 34 percent preferred (xr), and 10
percent accepted both pronunciations.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
Fourth Edition"
I'm not bound by the 44% of the Usage Panel that accept "air".
Robert Lieblich
>
> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:59:06 -0500 Robert
> Lieblich <Robert....@Verizon.net> posted:
>
> >meirman wrote:
> >>
> >> In alt.english.usage on Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:14:37 GMT "frank green"
> >> <fran...@comcast.net> posted:
> >>
> >> >Out of curiosity, does anyone find any justification for pronouncing "err"
> >> >"air"?
> >>
> >> That's the pronunciation most people hear, so that's what they say.
> >>
> >> Don't be to hard on people who mispronounce,
> >
> >What do you mean "mispronounce," white man? Am I the only reader of
> >AEU who can look up a word in an online dictionary?
> >
> >--
> >Bob Lieblich
> >I expected better of you, Meirman
>
> Better? I believe you mean more like you think. It's a matter of
> perspective. I think it's been pretty clear I'm proscriptivist but
> you and most dictionaries are descriptivist.
>
> I think you would do better to judge people on their adherance to
> their own standards rather than yours, when their own standards are
> reasonable and not malicious.
I agree, and I try to do just that. But there's a big difference
between adhering to one's own standards and trying to force those
standards on someone else. When there are two ways of spelling or
pronouncing a word, and someone chooses one over the other, that's
just fine, and certainly not deserving of criticism. I'm sure
you've noticed that on those rare occasions when someone comes along
and insists, for example, that "honour" is the only correct spelling
and "honor" a barbarism, people jump all over him. And rightly so.
Haven't you spotted the many postings in which I've said, in effect,
that I don't like a given usage and won't use it myself but still
won't say that the alternative is wrong? To take the current
example, I say "ur" for "err," just as you do, but I don't call
"air" a mispronunciation, as you do. Both are legitimate, and I've
left the AHD4 note quoted below, which you found, unsnipped because
it makes precisely that point.
In general, I do what you say -- I judge people on adherence to
their own standards. When their standards are wrong -- for either
of two reasons -- I object. Reason one for being wrong is that they
simply are not conforming to the language they purport to be using.
Malaprops are the most obvious examples, but plain old grammatical
errors also count. Example of the latter: "My collection of china
and glassware include many items by Lalique." Second reason: the
person is denying the existence of a standard usage. Eric Walker
does that regularly; how anyone, in this 21st Millennium, could deny
the standard-ness of, say, "A number of men are wearing hats" is
beyond me. But he does. I criticize him for adherence to a
standard (different meaning of "standard" from the "standard" in
"Standard English") that disallows perfectly ordinary and
unexceptionable issues.
So along comes frank green, whose hobby seems to be the criticizing
of perfectly ordinary English usages, telling us that "air" is a
flat-out mispronunciation of "err," and who should agree with him
but Meirman? Your own research (see below) establishes that you
were wrong. That's not adherence to your own standard; that's
criticism of those who adhere to another equally correct standard.
And I am perfectly entitled to point this out and object to it. You
are ordinarily a quite reasonable person, and I *did* expect better
of you. I'm certainly willing to regard this as a rare aberration,
but I hope you will think over what I have said before reflexively
putting up your defenses. Gawd knows I screw up frequently; why
can't you do so occasionally?
Okay, here's that usage note, which you turned up, not me:
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=err
> "Usage Note: The pronunciation (ûr) for the word err is
> traditional, but the pronunciation (r) has gained ground in recent
> years, perhaps owing to influence from errant and error, and must now
> be regarded as an acceptable variant. The Usage Panel was split on the
> matter: 56 percent preferred (ûr), 34 percent preferred (xr), and 10
> percent accepted both pronunciations.
>
> Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
> Fourth Edition"
And your comment:
>
> I'm not bound by the 44% of the Usage Panel that accept "air".
You are absolutely right. Say it as you say it. But when you say
that that 44 percent is "mispronouncing" the word, you have gone too
far.
Come back to the fold, Meirman, all is forgiven.
--
Bob Lieblich
To air is human
Dena Jo
> There are plenty of ways to pronounce "err." Several are correct.
> (Example of a wrong pronunciation of "err" -- "cat").
To cat is human; to forgive, divine.
You're right. It doesn't work.
Not to mention it offends my kitties.
--
Dena Jo
Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.
Carter Jefferson
Hi, Bob--
I don't worry much about pronunciation, and can handle
"err" as "ur" or "air," but your position, as I
understand it, is not much help to me as an author,
editor, and teacher.
I can know perfectly well that an author is using a fairly
popular, but ungrammatical or non-standard, usage, but
I have to call the author on it and change it to the
standard way. You're willing to accept something 44
percent of the usage panel usage says is okay, but I feel
obligated to adhere pretty closely to the majority opinion
in AHD4. I have to draw the line somewhere; the purely
descriptivist position just won't work. Sometimes, as in
the case of "persuade" and "convince," I'm more strict
than the panel, on the ground that there's no point in
offending the purists, when the non-purists won't care
either way, though I don't meet the Walker standard.
For example, I find a good many, maybe most, of the
writers I edit using "like" as a conjunction. I use it that
way myself in informal speech. But AHD4 says writers
who use it that way are likely to be "accused of illiteracy
or worse." (I can't think of anything worse for a writer.)
So I make writers use the formal locution, except in
dialogue, of course.
It's pretty hard to change hats all the time, so I tend to be
more prescriptivist than you are. That doesn't mean
you're wrong, just that we view the situation differently.
Carter Jefferson
cart...@mindspring.com
http://carterj.homestead.com/
Dr Robin Bignall
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
It often doesn't work with me either, Bob.
>There are plenty of ways to pronounce "err." Several are correct.
>(Example of a wrong pronunciation of "err" -- "cat").
Is that an airing of American irony, or just plain sarcasm?
<Insert appropriate smileys.>
Dr Robin Bignall
<TPUBGTH.delete...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 20 Dec 2003, Robert Lieblich posted thus:
>
>> There are plenty of ways to pronounce "err." Several are correct.
>> (Example of a wrong pronunciation of "err" -- "cat").
>
>To cat is human; to forgive, divine.
>
>You're right. It doesn't work.
>
>Not to mention it offends my kitties.
On my first glance I erred and misread that last word, and thought WTF....
No, on second thoughts, it doesn't matter WTF I first thought.
meirman
Lieblich <Robert....@Verizon.net> posted:
I didn't try to force anything on anyone else. They can and will
pronounce the word the way they want to. But it's a mispronunciation
by my standards, and I called it that. To do anything less would be
to say that their pronunciation is ok, and I don't think so. The
people who think is ok to say it the other way can support their own
position by saying so, as they often do.
> When there are two ways of spelling or
>pronouncing a word, and someone chooses one over the other, that's
>just fine, and certainly not deserving of criticism.
You seem to consider "mispronounce" to be criticism. Maybe it is.
But it's a statement of fact based on my opinion of the facts.
There are two possible positions that seem obvious on the issue of the
'air' pronunciation: 1) that it is ok, and 2) that it is not. You
seem to want the second position to be phrased: that it is ok if the
speaker thinks it is ok. In other words that the two positions are 1)
that it's ok, and 2) that it's ok if the speaker thinks so. IOW, you
want me to agree with you. And you have the nerve to say, since I
don't, that you expect better of me. I expect better of you.
>I'm sure
>you've noticed that on those rare occasions when someone comes along
>and insists, for example, that "honour" is the only correct spelling
>and "honor" a barbarism, people jump all over him. And rightly so.
Not the same thing.
>Haven't you spotted the many postings in which I've said, in effect,
>that I don't like a given usage and won't use it myself but still
>won't say that the alternative is wrong?
And you want me to imitate your style. It's as if your style is the
right style and no other style is acceptable. You're trying to force
your standards on me, just what you accused me of. And I didn't
berate the people who mispronounce the word as you have berated me.
Who is using more "force", you or me? You are.
> To take the current
>example, I say "ur" for "err," just as you do, but I don't call
>"air" a mispronunciation, as you do.
We've got that straight.
> Both are legitimate,
No they're not.
>and I've
>left the AHD4 note quoted below, which you found, unsnipped because
>it makes precisely that point.
No it doesn't.
>In general, I do what you say -- I judge people on adherence to
>their own standards. When their standards are wrong -- for either
>of two reasons -- I object. Reason one for being wrong is that they
>simply are not conforming to the language they purport to be using.
>Malaprops are the most obvious examples, but plain old grammatical
>errors also count. Example of the latter: "My collection of china
>and glassware include many items by Lalique." Second reason: the
>person is denying the existence of a standard usage. Eric Walker
>does that regularly; how anyone, in this 21st Millennium, could deny
>the standard-ness of, say, "A number of men are wearing hats" is
>beyond me. But he does. I criticize him for adherence to a
>standard (different meaning of "standard" from the "standard" in
>"Standard English") that disallows perfectly ordinary and
>unexceptionable issues.
>
>So along comes frank green, whose hobby seems to be the criticizing
>of perfectly ordinary English usages, telling us that "air" is a
>flat-out mispronunciation of "err," and who should agree with him
>but Meirman? Your own research (see below) establishes that you
>were wrong.
No it doesn't. You misunderstand the note.
>That's not adherence to your own standard; that's
>criticism of those who adhere to another equally correct standard.
It's not equally correct. That 44% of the group thinks so does not
mean it is.
>And I am perfectly entitled to point this out and object to it. You
But you were insulting when you objected. How dare you insult me.
>are ordinarily a quite reasonable person, and I *did* expect better
>of you.
Again you are using agreement with you as equivalent to better. And
you have insulted me again.
>I'm certainly willing to regard this as a rare aberration,
Regard it as whatever you want.
>but I hope you will think over what I have said before reflexively
>putting up your defenses.
It's your opinion, based on what I have no idea, that arguing with you
is reflexive. "Defenses" has a negative connotation. I'm going to
assume you said "defense" instead.
> Gawd knows I screw up frequently; why
>can't you do so occasionally?
I've retracted many things in many groups, and many of those times,
I've apologized. I don't keep track if this is one of them or not,
but I'd be surprised if I hadn't done so here.
>Okay, here's that usage note, which you turned up, not me:
>
>> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=err
>> "Usage Note: The pronunciation (ûr) for the word err is
>> traditional, but the pronunciation (r) has gained ground in recent
>> years, perhaps owing to influence from errant and error, and must now
>> be regarded as an acceptable variant. The Usage Panel was split on the
>> matter: 56 percent preferred (ûr), 34 percent preferred (xr), and 10
>> percent accepted both pronunciations.
>>
>> Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
>> Fourth Edition"
>
>And your comment:
>>
>> I'm not bound by the 44% of the Usage Panel that accept "air".
>
>You are absolutely right. Say it as you say it.
I'm not bound to say it their way OR to think their way is not a
mispronunciation. And as you say, I'm absolutely right.
>But when you say
>that that 44 percent is "mispronouncing" the word, you have gone too
>far.
No I haven't. You misunderstand the note, or the nature of a question
for which two people have different answers.
You just quote the note and make an assertion. I don't see why that
would convince anyone who didn't already have your position.
BTW, I quoted the note for background. I plainly didn't accept every
part of the note. For example, "must now be regarded as an acceptable
variant". I don't accept that and I didn't when I first quoted the
note. It's a conclusion. And fwiw, I don't know who wrote it and I
don't know how many of the Panel agreed to it. It doesn't say.
>Come back to the fold, Meirman, all is forgiven.
Do you want me to explain why this line is so very pompous. Why do
you end with such crap?
Alan Jones
"Carter Jefferson" <cart...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:49lcuv8u8eef5efqt...@4ax.com...
[...]
> I can know perfectly well that an author is using a fairly
> popular, but ungrammatical or non-standard, usage, but
> I have to call the author on it and change it to the
> standard way. You're willing to accept something 44
> percent of the usage panel usage says is okay, but I feel
> obligated to adhere pretty closely to the majority opinion
> in AHD4. I have to draw the line somewhere; the purely
> descriptivist position just won't work. Sometimes, as in
> the case of "persuade" and "convince," I'm more strict
> than the panel, on the ground that there's no point in
> offending the purists, when the non-purists won't care
> either way, though I don't meet the Walker standard.
>
> For example, I find a good many, maybe most, of the
> writers I edit using "like" as a conjunction. I use it that
> way myself in informal speech. But AHD4 says writers
> who use it that way are likely to be "accused of illiteracy
> or worse." (I can't think of anything worse for a writer.)
> So I make writers use the formal locution, except in
> dialogue, of course.
That (mutatis mutandis) describes my own attitude in almost forty years of
teaching--though I should have insisted on "stricter" rather than "more
strict" ... It's a bold line to take with alert and cocky teenage boys, who
sometimes spotted my own lapses. But the more they spotted the more
gratifying, of course.
Alan Jones
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
How dare you insult me.
We disagree. That slone does not justify insulting you. But what I
orignally said was intended to be said in good humor, and I'm sorry
you didn't detect that. I'll accept the blame for being
insufficiently clear. It is not you but your attitude toward the
particular issue, which I think is sufficiently covered in prior
posting that I've snipped the discussion, that I don't like. As you
don't like mine. Nothing you said has changed my mind, and --
obviously -- vice versa. But, as I said, that's been covered.
[ ... ]
> >Come back to the fold, Meirman, all is forgiven.
>
> Do you want me to explain why this line is so very pompous. Why do
> you end with such crap?
Here, Meirman: :) :) :) :) :). Install them where you think
necessary.
I'm sorry you took what I said personally. Despite what you
thought, it was not so intended. When I want to insult you (an
unlikely event, to be sure), it will be a lot more obvious. Ask
frank green.
--
Bob Lieblich
Robert Lieblich
Ideally this sort of thing would be taught as a matter of style and
register rather than absolute truth. Certainly that sort of
instruction is appropriate. What is inappropriate is selling it as
an absolute judgment.
I had an English teacher in high school who didn't mind the use of
singular they and many another "loose usage" in personal
conversation but insisted on "correctness" in classroom discussion
and formal writing. I learned a great deal from here. And I don't
mind telling inquirers to this group that a given usage is "correct"
in traditional grammar but not necessarily what one will encounter
in real life. The need to inculcate "correct" may obscure the
relativism of actual everyday usage, but I don't think it should
completely occlude it. But I understand what you're saying and
don't disagree.
When someone like frank green comes, preaching his absolutism to a
bunch of people who know better, my hackles rise. So watch out for
those hackles, folks. I don't plan to stop.
--
Bob Lieblich
Hackling his way through life
Dr Robin Bignall
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
>When someone like frank green comes, preaching his absolutism to a
>bunch of people who know better, my hackles rise. So watch out for
>those hackles, folks. I don't plan to stop.
I'm trying to work out if that makes you a heckling hackler, or a hackling
heckler.
Robert Lieblich
>
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:04:48 -0500, Robert Lieblich
> <Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >When someone like frank green comes, preaching his absolutism to a
> >bunch of people who know better, my hackles rise. So watch out for
> >those hackles, folks. I don't plan to stop.
>
> I'm trying to work out if that makes you a heckling hackler, or a hackling
> heckler.
The laughing person who rings up your grocery purchases is a
cackling checker.
The person who patches drywall and leaves little blotches is a
specking spackler.
And I am both darkling and plain.
--
Bob Lieblich
And why not?
Dr Robin Bignall
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
>And I am both darkling and plain.
Therefore I am both sparkling and sane. (No literary connection, but it
rhymes.)
Carter Jefferson
"Stricter" or "more strict," that is the question.
I can't think of a rule that would preclude the use of either. I
suspect I used "more strict" to give the sentence better rhythm. Also,
"strict" is one of those words that for some reason sounds complete in
itself (to me). Using the comparative seems to me to weaken it. I have
absolutely no rationale for this.
Also, some words simply don't sound right in the comparative. Nobody
says "beautifuler" except babies or, possibly, someone else just
beginning to learn the language. "Stricter" isn't as bad as that to
me, but I just don't like the sound.
These days, by the way, I'm teaching senior citizens, most of whom are
younger than I am. They aren't as hard to deal with as teenagers, but
they surely can be stubborn. Fortunately, I'm bigger than most of
them.
Carter
frank green
"Dena Jo" <TPUBGTH.delete...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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