the servility of "Sir"
Midori Tsuura
when they leave school because it sounds servile,
although it still exists in the service industries and the armed forces.
The book also says that it's not the case in America.
Is this true? If it is, why is there such a difference?
Midori
John W Hall
Hello Ma'am-
I did for a long time. About 18 years ago I moved from Britain to
Canada. About 15 years ago I noticed that I would sometimes
address respected colleagues (and peers) as 'Sir', and sometimes
they would address me likewise. This is not in every sentence,
but either in the initial greeting or perhaps in parting. Also, I
occasionally address juniors as 'Yourg Sir'.
In case it's relevant, I note that I am 63 years old and work in
the computer systems field, where just about everyone is
intelligent, decently-educated and 'respectable' (at least in the
context of this discussion).
Also, some younger people address me as 'Sir', which I assume
implies acknowledgement of 'superior wisdom acquired by many
years of experience'.
I feel it's an acknowledgement of respect, and does not imply
servility.
Where I _DO_ have a problem is with women: the formal equivalenf
of 'Sir' for women is 'Madam', which is usually shortened to
"Ma'am". Well, _I_ don't have a problem with it, but some women
do, and it's not only the feminists. Some women seem to think it
implies they are keeping a brothel ('Madame' _CAN_ mean that in
France).
If you happen to overhear air traffic controllers communicating
with airline pilots/captains, they nearly always begin and end
with 'Good morning/evening Sir' or 'Good day, Sir' or whatever is
appropriate.
--
John Hall - Digital Magic <Digita...@cadvision.com>
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (Arthur C. Clarke)
JUST AN H
>Also, some younger people address me as 'Sir', which I assume
>implies acknowledgement of 'superior wisdom acquired by many
>years of experience'.
>
>I feel it's an acknowledgement of respect, and does not imply
>servility.
I agree. I'm a 38 year old male who has never had any qualms about addressing
another male (especially an older man) as "Sir" because, frankly, I enjoy being
addressed that way myself ... especially by younger men.
J.
Patronius
> I'm a 38 year old male who has never had any qualms about addressing
>another male (especially an older man) as "Sir" because, frankly, I enjoy
>being
>addressed that way myself ... especially by younger men.
>
>J.
Bet you don't enjoy it when you're addressed that way by younger women. ;-)
There's a TV commercial current in the U.S. which deals with that very thing.
The narrator says something like, "You know the feeling of dismay, the first
time it happened to you . . ." A young man pulls up to a stoplight next to a
carload of pretty young women who are waving to get his attention. He smiles
to himself, brushes back his hair, and rolls down his window--only to hear the
driver of the other car say, "Excuse me, Sir, but do you know where
such-and-such is?" The man's jaw drops open, and he looks as if he's got one
foot in the grave.
At 43, I've begun to get used to it. But it still shocks me sometimes. I'd
gladly trade this so-called sign of respect for a return of my youth.
To change the subject--or rather get back on track with the original subject--I
find that here in the U.S. we often use "Sir" in a more or less tongue-in-cheek
way. I have a coworker, for instance, who, when I pass jobs to his desk,
always says, "Thank you, Sir." Our office is quite informal, and Stan and I
have known each other for over 15 years, as good acquaintances as well as
coworkers--so the "Sir" seems a little silly. And that's the whole point.
Most people I know use "Sir" in the same way Stan uses it: in an ironic, or
tongue-in-cheek sense--as a backhanded way of reminding each other that
formality is unnecessary or out of place among us.
The only times in my life I've ever used "Sir" seriously are:
1) when working in a service position and addressing male customers;
2) in the army, when addressing officers; and
3) once in a great while, when addressing an older man who has a look in his
eye that moves me to acknowledge his years of experience and wisdom.
Charles Riggs
<mid...@po.cnet-ta.ne.jp> wrote:
>I read a book and it says that many British speakers give up using 'Sir'
>when they leave school because it sounds servile,
>although it still exists in the service industries and the armed forces.
>The book also says that it's not the case in America.
>Is this true? If it is, why is there such a difference?
>Midori
I'd say "Sir" is used frequently in American as a form of address to
show respect. I would not call a civilian boss that but I might well
address an older man that way as a show of respect. The same is true I
think in my new home of Ireland.
Charles
janelaw
>
><snip discussion of trauma caused by being called "sir" which reminded me of my own
> horror the first time I was ma'amed (I never shopped in that store again, and I > never will)>
>
> The only times in my life I've ever used "Sir" seriously are:
>
> 1) when working in a service position and addressing male customers;
>
> 2) in the army, when addressing officers; and
>
> 3) once in a great while, when addressing an older man who has a look in his
> eye that moves me to acknowledge his years of experience and wisdom.
I'm in the U.S.
I always call men "sir" if I don't know their names. When I
stop to ask directions, for example. I guess I mainly call gas
station attendants "sir."
I don't think I ever ma'am anyone, though, unless I'm really
annoyed.
E W Beattie
Writing as an Englishman who has visited the U.S. many times, I can state
that you are right that "Sir" is much more widely used in the States than
it is here.
As for the reason for this, one can only speculate. My own guess is that
the reason is snobbery, which is very much less prevalent in America than
it is here. The reasoning goes like this:
In England, "Sir" is most widely used when addressing a customer. The
snobbery we have over here implies that performing a service for someone
for a living is degrading to the person who does it. In more general terms
commerce is considered to be an inferior form earning money.
My judgement is that Americans don't feel that way, at least not to the
same extent as we do.
Hope this helps.
EWB
Midori Tsuura <mid...@po.cnet-ta.ne.jp> wrote in article
<9147ce$d381...@news.cnet.ne.jp>...
JUST AN H
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: the servility of "Sir"
>From: "E W Beattie" <edward....@rapid.co.uk>
>Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998 15:54 EDT
>Message-id: <01bde72b$f54fce60$9600bcc3@default>
>
>Midori,
>
>Writing as an Englishman who has visited the U.S. many times, I can state
>that you are right that "Sir" is much more widely used in the States than
>it is here.
>
>As for the reason for this, one can only speculate. My own guess is that
>the reason is snobbery, which is very much less prevalent in America than
>it is here. The reasoning goes like this:
>
>In England, "Sir" is most widely used when addressing a customer. The
>snobbery we have over here implies that performing a service for someone
>for a living is degrading to the person who does it. In more general terms
>commerce is considered to be an inferior form earning money.
>
>My judgement is that Americans don't feel that way, at least not to the
>same extent as we do.
Here in America, commerce is considered to be an inferior form of earning money
by certain classes for pretty much the same reason it's considered inferior in
England: namely, commerce involves overstatement. Here in America, commerce
also involves an obnoxious intrusion on people's privacy by those out to sell
something, and these people think it's okay. For example, what American hasn't
been interrupted during dinner or while reading a child to sleep at night by a
"telemarketer" dialing from a computer generated list of telephone numbers?
These people have a living to make, of course, but by doing so, they have
turned our telephones into assault weapons. And a lot of Americans resent
that.
As for sales-clerks in stores, well, a lot of stores here in the States have
this "rah rah rah!" phony friendship mentality designed to boost sales. When
some ebullient sales-clerk asks, "And your first name?" (without even bothering
to look up at me), I say, "It's Mr. Herman."
Sorry, but I don't see any "snobbery" in calling a customer "Sir." Customers
pay your bills, and therefore deserve to be treated with respect. If it grates
on you to call someone "Sir" at the counter, then perhaps you need to find
another line of work. -grin-
J.
Patronius
>Sorry, but I don't see any "snobbery" in calling a customer "Sir."
It's all a matter of perspective, isn't it? There are still people in this
world who feel good about respecting others and providing service. Such people
may address someone (a customer, supervisor, elder, etc.) as Sir just out of a
heartfelt expression of honor or respect. I think we could do with more of
that attitude in the world, and less of coldly jockeying for superior
position/wealth.
IMHO, the use of the word "Sir" is irrelevant. It's what's behind it that
counts.
--P. C.
Robert F Underhill
many Western civilizations throughout the Christian era. It reflects the
same spirit of Love and Humility which permeates the teachings of Jesus
and which informs the American revolutionary experience of equality - that
command that I love myself because I have been created God and that I must
thereby love all others ("neighbors") as I love myself for the Love of
Him. "Blessed are the poor of spirit . . ."
Bob, one of the "least of these", sir.
Patronius (patr...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Sorry, but I don't see any "snobbery" in calling a customer "Sir."
: --P. C.
--
Bob Of Boston
Box 114, 89 Union Park Street (617)451-2703
Boston, MA 02118-2474 por...@world.std.com
"Vivite et amate semper suspicientos"