Please help me with questions about ORDINALS
June Kim
In advance, thank you so much helping me with
English.
------------------------------------
A: How many buildings in this city are bigger than
this one?
B: Only two buildings are bigger than this building.
This dialogue above is not really what I meant to
make. Actually, I want 'A' to ask B directly
the rank(i know this is awkward) of the building, so
that B's answer probably would be like:
"It is the third biggest buidling in the city"
How should I ask someone in order to get this like
answer?
---------------------------------------
Just another similar question with the former.
A:(asks something, but I can't put it in a sentence)
B: I am the third among my siblings. (as of age)
What should A ask B in order to get B's answer?
Thank you very much reading my questions.
- June
mark
I suppose you could ask:
If you ranked all the buildings in this city, in order of size, from
biggest to smallest, in what position would you place this one?
It lacks finesse, but I guess it would extract the required information.
mark
Mark Barton
<june...@orchestra.cse.cau.ac.kr> wrote:
>Actually, I want 'A' to ask B directly
>the rank(i know this is awkward) of the building, so
>that B's answer probably would be like:
>
>"It is the third biggest buidling in the city"
>
>How should I ask someone in order to get this like
>answer?
>
>---------------------------------------
>Just another similar question with the former.
>A:(asks something, but I can't put it in a sentence)
>
>B: I am the third among my siblings. (as of age)
>
>What should A ask B in order to get B's answer?
As far as I can see there is no simple, elegant way of asking such a
question. (There should be of course but there isn't.) Things that people
might say in conversation include
"Are you the oldest in your family? Second-oldest? Third oldest?..."
"Where do you come in your family." (a bit vague but probably understandable)
"Where do you come in your family, age-wise." (unambiguous but inelegant)
"Where do you come in your family in terms of age." (unambigous but wordy)
"How many older brothers and sisters do you have?" (indirect)
but none of these are very elegant. To be absolutely precise you could say:
"What is your position in age order within your family?"
but this is extremely formal and people of limited education might not
understand.
Cheers,
Mark B.
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Fabian
June Kim <june...@orchestra.cse.cau.ac.kr> wrote in message
news:7k5ddf$fnl$1...@news.nuri.net...
> A: How many buildings in this city are bigger than
> this one?
>
> B: Only two buildings are bigger than this building.
>
> This dialogue above is not really what I meant to
> make. Actually, I want 'A' to ask B directly
> the rank(i know this is awkward) of the building, so
> that B's answer probably would be like:
>
> "It is the third biggest buidling in the city"
>
> How should I ask someone in order to get this like
> answer?
Unfortunately, English has no 'natural' way to ask this question. There
are, of course, ways to write around the question, as others have
demonstrated. But in ENglish, it cannot be asked sensibly. I understand
that in Korean, teh question is quite easy to ask. In a written context,
you might find:
This building is the Nth biggest in the city?
But that looks very bizarre in English, and would never be spoken in a
normal (or abnormal) conversation.
---
Fabian
After all, it's wrong for a guy to go back on a date with a girl
even if the girl's not really a girl but only happens to be a girl
at the time of a guy asking her out on a date because she's a girl.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Fabian wrote:
> June Kim <june...@orchestra.cse.cau.ac.kr> wrote in message
> news:7k5ddf$fnl$1...@news.nuri.net...
>
> > A: How many buildings in this city are bigger than
> > this one?
> >
> > B: Only two buildings are bigger than this building.
> >
> > This dialogue above is not really what I meant to
> > make. Actually, I want 'A' to ask B directly
> > the rank(i know this is awkward) of the building, so
> > that B's answer probably would be like:
> >
> > "It is the third biggest buidling in the city"
> >
> > How should I ask someone in order to get this like
> > answer?
>
> Unfortunately, English has no 'natural' way to ask this question. There
> are, of course, ways to write around the question, as others have
> demonstrated. But in ENglish, it cannot be asked sensibly. I understand
> that in Korean, teh question is quite easy to ask. In a written context,
> you might find:
>
> This building is the Nth biggest in the city?
>
> But that looks very bizarre in English, and would never be spoken in a
> normal (or abnormal) conversation.
Allow me to introduce a new construct to the language. From now on people
will be able to express this concept by saying "Whatth height building in
the city is this? It is the 9th tallest building."
"Whatth number child are you in your family? I am the third child in my
family."
I hope this is acceptable to the majority, if not to everyone.
acummings
AC
Prince Richard Kaminski a écrit:
Bob Lipton
>
> Hello.
> In advance, thank you so much helping me with
> English.
>
> ------------------------------------
> this one?
>
> B: Only two buildings are bigger than this building.
>
> This dialogue above is not really what I meant to
> make. Actually, I want 'A' to ask B directly
> the rank(i know this is awkward) of the building, so
> that B's answer probably would be like:
"How many buildings in the city are taller than it?"
This might get you the answer of 'Two' or the answer above.
>
> "It is the third biggest buidling in the city"
>
> How should I ask someone in order to get this like
> answer?
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Just another similar question with the former.
> A:(asks something, but I can't put it in a sentence)
>
> B: I am the third among my siblings. (as of age)
>
> What should A ask B in order to get B's answer?
Are you the oldest child in your family?
Bob
Thomas Schenk
>
> June Kim wrote:
> >
> > Hello.
> > In advance, thank you so much helping me with
> > English.
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > A: How many buildings in this city are bigger than
> > this one?
> >
> > B: Only two buildings are bigger than this building.
> >
> > This dialogue above is not really what I meant to
> > make. Actually, I want 'A' to ask B directly
> > the rank(i know this is awkward) of the building, so
> > that B's answer probably would be like:
>
> "How many buildings in the city are taller than it?"
>
> This might get you the answer of 'Two' or the answer above.
If you truly want to force the answer as given, then you're going to
have to phrase the question less ambiguously by proposing a
comparison: "How does this building compare in size with others in
the city?", or something similar.
> > "It is the third biggest buidling in the city"
> >
> > How should I ask someone in order to get this like
> > answer?
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> > Just another similar question with the former.
> > A:(asks something, but I can't put it in a sentence)
> >
> > B: I am the third among my siblings. (as of age)
> >
> > What should A ask B in order to get B's answer?
>
> Are you the oldest child in your family?
The all-too-frequent answer to that question is often "yes" or "no",
followed by a full stop. (I know this through personal experience,
since I ask a similar question almost daily.) "Where do you stand in
terms of age relative your siblings?" is a bit turgid, but it works
every time.
Tom
Bob Cunningham
<toms...@earthlink.net> said:
>Bob Lipton wrote:
[ . . . ]
>> Are you the oldest child in your family?
>The all-too-frequent answer to that question is often "yes" or "no",
>followed by a full stop. (I know this through personal experience,
>since I ask a similar question almost daily.) "Where do you stand in
>terms of age relative your siblings?" is a bit turgid, but it works
>every time.
Less turgid and equally effective would be 'How many brothers and
sisters do you have, and how many of them are older than you?'
Even if 'you' is a twin, one of the twins is older than the other by
at least a few minutes.
--
Bob Cunningham, Southern California, USofA
Let those who have the least to lose be spearheads of new forms.
Let those who want to win respect observe accepted norms.
-- Woody Wordpecker
Thomas Schenk
>
> On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 07:13:55 -0700, Thomas Schenk
> <toms...@earthlink.net> said:
>
> >Bob Lipton wrote:
>
> [ . . . ]
>
> >> Are you the oldest child in your family?
>
> >The all-too-frequent answer to that question is often "yes" or "no",
> >followed by a full stop. (I know this through personal experience,
> >since I ask a similar question almost daily.) "Where do you stand in
> >terms of age relative your siblings?" is a bit turgid, but it works
> >every time.
>
> Less turgid and equally effective would be 'How many brothers and
> sisters do you have, and how many of them are older than you?'
>
> Even if 'you' is a twin, one of the twins is older than the other by
> at least a few minutes.
I'm afraid you snipped away June Kim's answer in search of a
question, which I duly re-insert:
"B: I am the third among my siblings. (as of age)".
Your suggested question asks for superfluous information, not
included in Mr. Kim's answer. His answer does not say how many
brothers and sisters he has. If he gave answer B, he would not be
fully responsive to your question. (As an aside, I regard "siblings"
to be a poor substitute for "brothers and sisters", smacking of
Wardour Street.)
Tom
Bob Cunningham
<toms...@earthlink.net> said:
>Bob Cunningham wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 07:13:55 -0700, Thomas Schenk
>> <toms...@earthlink.net> said:
>> >Bob Lipton wrote:
>> [ . . . ]
>> >> Are you the oldest child in your family?
>> >The all-too-frequent answer to that question is often "yes" or "no",
>> >followed by a full stop. (I know this through personal experience,
>> >since I ask a similar question almost daily.) "Where do you stand in
>> >terms of age relative your siblings?" is a bit turgid, but it works
>> >every time.
>> Less turgid and equally effective would be 'How many brothers and
>> sisters do you have, and how many of them are older than you?'
>> Even if 'you' is a twin, one of the twins is older than the other by
>> at least a few minutes.
>I'm afraid you snipped away June Kim's answer in search of a
>question,
My intent was to comment on Thomas Schenk's response to Bob Lipton's
suggestion, and I believe that is what I did.
>which I duly re-insert:
> "B: I am the third among my siblings. (as of age)".
When I come across a construction like that, I tend to shudder and
hurry by. I'm familiar with things like 'as of today' and 'as of the
beginning of 1999', but what does 'as of age' mean? Does anyone think
it's good idiomatic English as related to the statement it follows?
If I had to tackle the statement as an editor, I would probably guess
that it meant 'I am third in age among my siblings' and suggest that
it be changed to that if the writer agreed that that is what he or she
meant.
>Your suggested question asks for superfluous information, not
>included in Mr. Kim's answer. His answer does not say how many
>brothers and sisters he has. If he gave answer B, he would not be
>fully responsive to your question.
Guilty as charged.
>(As an aside, I regard "siblings"
>to be a poor substitute for "brothers and sisters", smacking of
>Wardour Street.)
Because it's more concise and equally precise, it will probably smack
of Main Street some day.
mark
> "Whatth number child are you in your family? I am the third child in my
> family."
I like that.
>
>
> I hope this is acceptable to the majority, if not to everyone.
If we were at an earlier position in the evolution of English, it might even
catch on.
Caldew
<dobun...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>Allow me to introduce a new construct to the language. From now on people
>will be able to express this concept by saying "Whatth height building in
>the city is this? It is the 9th tallest building."
>
>"Whatth number child are you in your family? I am the third child in my
>family."
>
>I hope this is acceptable to the majority, if not to everyone.
>
I think it's disgusting the way people like you poke fun at those with
disabilities. Just because they have a minor difference in the palate
or whatever doesn't mean they're less than human, you know! How would
you like it if people made snide remarks about your pronunciation?
Kir M'Djinn Child: Mamma, are Tories born wicked, or do they grow
wicked afterwards?
Mother: They are born wicked, and grow worse.
mark
> I think it's disgusting the way people like you poke fun at those with
> disabilities. Just because they have a minor difference in the palate
> or whatever doesn't mean they're less than human, you know! How would
> you like it if people made snide remarks about your pronunciation?
If your reply was serious?
I don't know for sure what the author had in mind, but I was certain he was
suggesting whatth as a construction similar in form nth and meaning what's its
position in a given hierarchy.
In any event the word "outthink" already contains the word sound you find
disgusting.
I'm sure other, more erudite group members, can outthink me by providing you
with many more examples. So the harm, if any were possible, has already been
done.
If you were joking then I find your humour offensive.
Mark
June Kim
> ---------------------------------------
> Just another similar question with the former.
> A:(asks something, but I can't put it in a sentence)
>
>
>
Someone gave me a comment about this problem.
S/He said, "What's your birth order(in your family)?" should be definitely
suitable for this case.
Do you all agree?
This sentence seems to be much more elegant than any others.
-June
Mikael Sterner
>
> How should I ask someone in order to get this like
> answer?
What if you asked "Is this the second biggest building in the city?"? Then the
reply would/could be "No, it is only the third biggest...". Was this the second
best answer? :-)
Mikael Sterner
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
wrote:
>If you were joking then I find your humour offensive.
>
>Mark
Hi, Charlie. I bet you do indeed, fersure fersure!
Franke
Mikael Sterner wrote:
> What if you asked "Is this the second biggest building in the city?"? Then the
> reply would/could be "No, it is only the third biggest...". Was this the second
> best answer? :-)
This seems like the first best way to elicit the desired answer. And
for the conceptually challenged one might even want to provide
another example via redundancy, e.g. "Is this the second biggest or
the third biggest building in the city?"
John O'Flaherty
It's correct, but it has a technical or scientific flavor to it, and might not
be understood in ordinary conversation.
john
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
An interesting exchange in that "Wardour Street" means different
things to different people, I imagine.
In my day Wardour Street by day was Hollywood East, full of
Jewish Americans manning the offices, and by night full of London
ladies plying their trade.
One detects the Freud in "siblings" and the vague touch of
Byronism in it too, when the ladies are remembered.
I agree with Tom: one does not use the word much outside
psycho-babble.
jan...@mailexcite.com
>
> a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
> > An interesting exchange in that "Wardour Street" means different
> > things to different people, I imagine.
>
>
> > One detects the Freud in "siblings" and the vague touch of
> > Byronism in it too, when the ladies are remembered.
>
> Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition, has to say about it:
>
> sibling \'si-blin\ n (bef. 12c)
> 1 : sib 2; also : one of two or more individuals having one common
> parent
> 2 : one of two or more things related by a common tie or
> characteristic
>
> Notice, please, that it is a usage from before the 12th century AD,
> just a few years before Byron and Freud.
>
> And here is what the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage
> says about it:
> ************************************
> sibling
> Sibling is to brother and sister more or less as spouse is to
> husband and wife: a formal word that is sometimes useful in contexts
> where either of the sexually specific words would be inappropriate.
> Sibling most often occurs in scientific writing:
> ... the genetic changes undergone by one or both siblings during
> the period of separation -Peter Matthiessen, New Yorker, 27 May 1967
> ... how dependent these children are on their parents or siblings
> -Jerome L. Singer, Psychology Today, April 1968
>
> It sometimes shows up in general writing as well:
> ... a small fee to reward the older sibling for serving as a sitter
> -Letty Cottin Pogrebin, Ladies' Home Jour., September 1971
>
> In recent years figurative uses have become increasingly popular:
> Pocket Books is a sibling of Simon Schuster's many divisions -Ray
> Walters, N.Y. Times Book Rev., 14 Oct. 1979
> The sun has its starry sibling: Alpha Centauri -Philip Morrison,
> Scientific American, February 1978
> **************************************
>
> The dictionary also says the following about "sib," which is used
> quite often in the writings of (social) anthropologists, and has
> been for over 100 years:
>
> sib
> 1 sib \'sib\ adj [ME, fr. OE sibb, fr. sibb kinship; akin to OHG
> sippa kinship, family, L sodalis comrade, Gk ethos custom,
> character, L suus one's own _ more at suicide ] (bef. 12c) : related
> by blood : akin
> 2 sib n (bef. 12c)
> 1 a : kindred, relatives
> b : a blood relation : kinsman
> 2 : a brother or sister considered irrespective of sex; broadly :
> any plant or animal of a group sharing a degree of genetic
> relationship corresponding to that of human sibs
> 3 : a group of persons unilaterally descended from a real or
> supposed ancestor
This has come up on aeu before. My take is that the word
"sibling" come up on a daily basis in the lives of people with
minor children. Adults with no minor children don't experience
it.
BTW, re the original question, in conversation I think most
people use the relatively inelegant "Where do you come in your
family?" Let's see what Freud and Byron can make of that.
jane
Franke
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
wrote:
>a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
>> An interesting exchange in that "Wardour Street" means different
>> things to different people, I imagine.
>
>Yes, especially to those of us who have never heard of it. :-)
And you seem determined -- to judge from your editing -- that
"us" shall remain unacquainted with it. I suppose the editing
was essential, to make room for your cut-and-paste antics with
the dictionary.
>
>> One detects the Freud in "siblings" and the vague touch of
>> Byronism in it too, when the ladies are remembered.
>
>My goodness! Freud and Byron? Here's what the Merriam-Webster's
>Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition, has to say about it:
>
[ ]
Does it have "idiot" in it?