Older sister?
Petibacsi
I always kind of wondered why there is not a special word in English made for
the siblings with different ages? In most languages it is not the expression of
older/younger sister brother, but one word.
Does anybody know why English didn't develope words for the siblings?
(well, it is kind of silly question, but I don't feel very well right now)
Peti
joy beeson
We have "cadet" for "younger son". I think there is also a word for
the oldest son.
It used to be proper to refer to the eldest daughter as "Miss Smith"
while younger daughters were "Miss Mary". Or so I gather from
historical romances.
Joy Beeson
mail to : j beeson at global two thousand dot net
Michael Pronay
<19981007081804...@ng23.aol.com>...
> I always kind of wondered why there is not a special
>word in English made for the siblings with different
>ages? In most languages it is not the expression of
>older/younger sister brother, but one word.
Sorry, the same situation applies to French (le frère aîné)
and to German (der ältere Bruder) -- it is nothing special
to English, afaik.
Michael
CaseyKCKC
Peti wrote:
> I always kind of wondered why there is not a special word in English made
>for
>the siblings with different ages? In most languages it is not the expression
>of
>older/younger sister brother, but one word.
This is not true of the (few) languages I am familiar with. Can you give some
examples of languages that have one word for younger/older sister/brother?
Thanks.
Karen
P&DSchultz
>
> I always kind of wondered why there is not a special word in English made for
> the siblings with different ages? In most languages it is not the expression of
> older/younger sister brother, but one word.
>
Chinese does it too. Which means that while in English we can say
"cousin," in Chinese you have to choose one of 16 specific
relationships:
1. Son of my father's older brother.
2. Son of my father's younger brother.
3. Son of my mother's older brother.
4. Son of my mother's younger brother
5. Son of my father's older sister.
6. Son of my father's younger sister.
7. Son of my mother's older sister.
8. Son of my mother's younger sister.
9. Daughter of my father's older brother.
10. Daughter of my father's younger brother.
11. Daughter of my mother's older brother.
12. Daughter of my mother's younger brother
13. Daughter of my father's older sister.
14. Daughter of my father's younger sister.
15. Daughter of my mother's older sister.
16. Daughter of my mother's younger sister.
//P. Schultz
June Kim
CaseyKCKC
>
>Peti wrote:
>
>> I always kind of wondered why there is not a special word in English made
>>for
>>the siblings with different ages? In most languages it is not the
expression
>>of
>>older/younger sister brother, but one word.
>
some
>examples of languages that have one word for younger/older sister/brother?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Karen
In Korean language, which is an Altaic language,
- when a female calls her older sister : Unni
younger " : Dongsang (or Yodongsang)
older brother: Oppa
younger " : Dongsang (or Namdongsang)
- when a male calls his older sister : Noona
younger " : Dongsang (or Yodongsang)
older brother: Hyung
younger " : Dongsang (or Namdongsang)
Actually, when calling one's younger siblings, it can be simply
'Dongsang' in every case. And, 'Yo' and 'Nam' is a kind of prefix,
which means 'female-' and 'male-', respectively.
-June
Petibacsi
>Can you give some
>examples of languages that have one word for younger/older sister/brother?
In Hungarian:
--older sister: nover (a nurse in the hospital also can be called like that)
--younger sister: hug (teasing form for a young girl from a guy: hugicam = my
dear hug)
--older brother: baty (also any older male in a kind/polite relationship)
--younger brother: occs (also patronizing form for a younger male occsem= my
son)
As you can see these form are not even similars (like having the same roots),
but made up from different words.
Peti
Petibacsi
Also in English there is no genderless word for siblings. I never heard of
asking:
"How many siblings do you have?" instead one asks: "How many brothers and/or
sisters do you have?"
Is the word sibling archaic? Why don't we use it in this kind of question?
In Hungarian there is the genderless testver, what can be used in this kind
of question: How many siblings (testver) do you have?
The etimology of the word is interesting because it means literally somebody
from the same blood:
test=body
ver=blood
So testver means bodyblood, somebody who comes from the same bloodline as you.
Peti
JUST AN H
> I always kind of wondered why there is not a special word in English made
>for
>the siblings with different ages? In most languages it is not the expression
>of
>older/younger sister brother, but one word.
In English, "older" siblings and relatives are properly referred to as "elder"
siblings and relatives.
"His elder sisters teased him unmercifully."
"Her eldest daughter is somewhat
rebellious."
"My elder brother just proposed to his
girlfriend."
"My elderly aunt likes to play bridge."
"Listen to your elders!"
J.
janelaw
Sibling is commonly used in English. It is not archaic or
obsolete.
Petibacsi
>
>Chinese does it too. Which means that while in English we can say
>"cousin," in Chinese you have to choose one of 16 specific
>relationships:
Well, the same in Hungarian where I can specify with one word that my cousin
is male or female and older or younger.
Peti
Jeff Chapman
> Also in English there is no genderless word for siblings. I never heard of
>asking:
>
>"How many siblings do you have?" instead one asks: "How many brothers and/or
>sisters do you have?"
>
> Is the word sibling archaic? Why don't we use it in this kind of question?
To second Janelaw's reply, the word siblings is in very common use. I
frequently refer to my brother and sisters as my sibs.
Jeff (aka Ninj)
http://www.infiltration.org
janelaw
Well, if it were important enough to English-speakers, I imagine
we'd have a word for it. It seems odd to me, because I can't
imagine caring about the specifics of your family
relationships. I have heard introductions like, "This is my
brother John's son, Steven." I can't remember ever hearing
anything like, "This is the daughter of my mother's older
brother."
All I'm saying is that if people cared enough, they would
include all the details. Then they would figure out a short cut
for an overly cumbersome phrase. It seems to me English has
gone the other way. The examples Joy gave seem to have fallen
into disuse, at least in the U.S.
Jane
Petibacsi
>Jane misunderstood slightly:
>Well, if it were important enough to English-speakers, I imagine
>we'd have a word for it.
So family relationships are not important? :)
>I can't remember ever hearing
>anything like, "This is the daughter of my mother's older
>brother."
You didn't get it. In Chinese and Hungarian that expression is just one word.
This is my unokahug.
>All I'm saying is that if people cared enough, they would
>include all the details.
So do you find it statisfying that you have to describe always who is older
and younger in the family?? I don't.
Peti
jane
No, Peti, I understood you. You may have misunderstood me. I
am saying that as far as aunts, uncles, and cousins are
concerned, family relationships ARE unimportant here. We refer
to our siblings, parents, grandparents, and aunts and uncles
specifically. Anyone more distantly related is a "cousin."
There is no distinction between a maternal or paternal aunt or
between an aunt by blood or marriage (at least in my dialect).
IMVE, no one says "the daughter of the younger sister of my
father" even though we CAN. To me that means that no one cares
to express that concept. If we did want to express the concept,
we would probably have a single word for it, too. English
speakers are shameless and promiscuous about borrowing words.
We would just use a word like "unokahug."
We don't always have to describe who is older and younger in the
family. It's not an issue. No one cares. In certain
circumstances we may refer to an elder or younger sibling, but
the idea of mentioning whether and aunt or uncle is related to
one's mother or father or is younger or older is totally foreign
to us. I'm sure I didn't know which of my mother's sisters was
younger or older until my twenties.
joy beeson
>We don't always have to describe who is older and younger in the
>family. It's not an issue. No one cares. In certain
>circumstances we may refer to an elder or younger sibling, but
>the idea of mentioning whether and aunt or uncle is related to
>one's mother or father or is younger or older is totally foreign
>to us. I'm sure I didn't know which of my mother's sisters was
>younger or older until my twenties.
I still don't know whether Aunt Eva was my mother's aunt or my
father's aunt, or an in-law, and there's nobody left alive to ask.
The one time I did ask, whoever I asked thought I was joking & said
she was mother's relative & he was dad's.
On the other hand, it was a very small county, and when they got
married, cars hadn't been invented yet . . .
In the forties, I was told by an older cousin that when she was a
girl, I'd have called her "aunt" and introduced her as "an aunt by a
cousin." This was always dialect, I'm sure.
P&DSchultz
> Well, if it were important enough to English-speakers, I imagine
> imagine caring about the specifics of your family
Arabic has two words for "uncle," depending on whether he is on your
mother's or father's side. But, interestingly, Arabic uses the same
single word for son-in-law, brother-in-law, and father-in-law.
Kinship terms seem to be a mixed bag, with no real relation to the
"importance" the culture places on family.
//P. Schultz
JUST AN H
> So do you find it statisfying that you have to describe always who is older
>and younger in the family?? I don't.
I don't think that's a burning issue with most people ... at least here in the
States because, let's face it, who really cares about the specifics of a
stranger's family? Now if that stranger were to become a friend, then details
about his or her relatives eventually come out in bits and pieces. (If you can
sit down for hours over coffee and talk about family, then you've truly
bonded.)
JUST AN H
>To second Janelaw's reply, the word siblings is in very common use. I
>frequently refer to my brother and sisters as my sibs.
>
>Jeff (aka Ninj)
Ditto.
JUSTICE164
case...@aol.com (CaseyKCKC) wrote,
>Peti wrote:
>
>> I always kind of wondered why there is not a special word in English made
>>for
>>the siblings with different ages? In most languages it is not the expression
>>of
>>older/younger sister brother, but one word.
>
>This is not true of the (few) languages I am familiar with. Can you give
>some
>examples of languages that have one word for younger/older sister/brother?
>
>Thanks.
East Indian languages such as Hindi, Marathi also have special expressions for
older siblings. Also they have special expressions for each set of
grandparents,
aunts, uncles etc. So it is always clear if one is talking about maternal
or paternal relatives. There are also different expressions for spouse's
siblings and one's own siblings.
Pratibha
Annie-21
>
> > I always kind of wondered why there is not a special word in English made
> >for
> >the siblings with different ages? In most languages it is not the expression
> >of
> >older/younger sister brother, but one word.
>
> siblings and relatives.
>
> "His elder sisters teased him unmercifully."
> "Her eldest daughter is somewhat
> rebellious."
> "My elder brother just proposed to his
> girlfriend."
> "My elderly aunt likes to play bridge."
> "Listen to your elders!"
>
> J.
At last an informed comment on the English usage.
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
Charles Riggs
>Well, if it were important enough to English-speakers, I imagine
>we'd have a word for it. It seems odd to me, because I can't
>imagine caring about the specifics of your family
>relationships. I have heard introductions like, "This is my
>brother John's son, Steven." I can't remember ever hearing
>anything like, "This is the daughter of my mother's older
>brother."
>
>All I'm saying is that if people cared enough, they would
>include all the details. Then they would figure out a short cut
>for an overly cumbersome phrase. It seems to me English has
>gone the other way. The examples Joy gave seem to have fallen
>into disuse, at least in the U.S.
>
>Jane
I think you have made the essential point. In China, perhaps other
Oriental countries too, I don't know, it is important to a family who
the eldest son is. He is accorded greater respect than any of his
siblings. Are family structure and family relationships more important
in the Orient than in English-speaking countries? I suspect so.
Charles
Charles Riggs
>Sibling is commonly used in English. It is not archaic or
>obsolete.
It is not obsolete, but I have never heard it used even once in
conversation. It is an ugly word and that may be the reason: brother
and sister sound so much more human.
Charles
jane
You don't have school-aged children, do you?
jane
>
> janelaw wrote:
> > Well, if it were important enough to English-speakers, I imagine
> > we'd have a word for it. It seems odd to me, because I can't
> > imagine caring about the specifics of your family
>
> Arabic has two words for "uncle," depending on whether he is on your
> mother's or father's side. But, interestingly, Arabic uses the same
> single word for son-in-law, brother-in-law, and father-in-law.
> Kinship terms seem to be a mixed bag, with no real relation to the
> "importance" the culture places on family.
> //P. Schultz
I don't agree. I think language always reflects what is
important in a culture.
jane
>
> jane <jan...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >We don't always have to describe who is older and younger in the
> >family. It's not an issue. No one cares. In certain
> >circumstances we may refer to an elder or younger sibling, but
> >the idea of mentioning whether and aunt or uncle is related to
> >one's mother or father or is younger or older is totally foreign
> >to us. I'm sure I didn't know which of my mother's sisters was
> >younger or older until my twenties.
>
> I still don't know whether Aunt Eva was my mother's aunt or my
> father's aunt, or an in-law, and there's nobody left alive to ask.
> The one time I did ask, whoever I asked thought I was joking & said
> she was mother's relative & he was dad's.
>
> On the other hand, it was a very small county, and when they got
> married, cars hadn't been invented yet . . .
>
>
I still don't know who my Aunt Nellie was. She was always a
pretty mysterious character, as she had a wooden leg that she
kept her knitting in. My best guess is that she was the
unmarried sister of the deceased husband of my mother's mother's
sister. Again, anyone who could tell me is gone.
Opinicus
Turkish has ONE word for "sibling": /karde}s/. (In this posting,
Turkish words are indicated between a pair of "/"; the use of
the character "}" means that the following character has a
diacritical mark of some sort.
/karde}s/ is an abbreviation of a much older word /kar}inda}s/
which means "one who has come from the same womb" by the way.
In Turkish one refers to a male sibling older than oneself as
/a}gabey/ or /abi/ and to a female sibling older than oneself as
/abla/. Both words are commonly used in everyday speech to refer
to people who are regarded as somewhat senior but are not blood
relations at all, by the way. Kind of like "Brother, can you
spare a dime?" in English.
Turkish regularly distinguishes between certain maternal and
paternal relatives. Thus:
/day}i/ maternal uncle. (A Turkish proverb has it that a child's
future height can be ascertained by checking out its maternal
uncles. Mendel would have loved this.)
/amca/ paternal uncle. Also a term of respect used for all males
somewhat senior than oneself.
/teyze/ maternal aunt.
/hala/ paternal aunt.
/babaanne/ maternal grandmother.
/anneanne/ maternel grandmother.
(Note: /anne/ means mother. /baba/ means father.)
/baba/ ("father") is used as a term of respect for males much
older than oneself. The first time (recently) someone used it
when addressing me I had to suppress an urge to throttle the
little twit. I suppose I will get used to it. /ana/ (not /anne/,
which is used only in the sense of "mother") is similarly used
as a term of respect for senior women.
For "grandfather" there is a single word /dede/. This is also
used in the sense of "male ancestor" and "old man". Go figure.
Bob
Istanbul
Thankful and not at all looking forward to the day
Robert Lieblich
<snip>
> I don't agree. I think language always reflects what is
> important in a culture.
But sometimes it takes the language a while to catch up. Witness the
furors over "singular they," political correctness, etc.
Bob Lieblich
janelaw
Sure grammar changes can take a while, partly because of people
like me. But as far as vocabulary goes, the English language
seems to adjust instantaneously. It amazes me how quickly words
are adopted into this language.
Petibacsi
>Bob:
> Witness the furors over "singular they,"
Just what the hell is singular they?
Peti
P&DSchultz
> Just what the hell is singular they?
It is "they" referring to a single individual, as is common
and normal in English. We also use "you" in the singular.
//P. Schultz
Robert Lieblich
Example: Each diner was asked if they wanted mustard with their hot dog.
I'm not advocating it, merely pointing it out.
There is quite a lot about this on alt.usage.english, accessible through
DejaNews by searching for the term "singular they" in that newsgroup.
Bob Lieblich
P&DSchultz
>
> P&DSchultz wrote:
> > ...
> > Kinship terms seem to be a mixed bag, with no real relation to the
> > "importance" the culture places on family.
> I don't agree. I think language always reflects what is
> important in a culture.
Maybe, of some culture, at some particular time. But I don't think
English kinship terms, which arose in an Anglo-Saxon culture quite
foreign to our own of today, tell much about our current culture, let
alone the culture of those native Americans, or the Irish, who speak
it as their only language. Cultural references in language can be
left long behind as the culture changes and the language doesn't. It's
easy to make a bigger deal out of them than is actually warranted.
//P. Schultz
joy beeson
> Just what the hell is singular they?
A notorious thread-killer.
Charles Riggs
Well....duh, no.
Charles
somer...@my-dejanews.com
jus...@aol.com (JUST AN H) wrote:
>
> > I always kind of wondered why there is not a special word in English made
> >for
> >the siblings with different ages? In most languages it is not the expression
> >of
> >older/younger sister brother, but one word.
>
> In English, "older" siblings and relatives are properly referred to as "elder"
> siblings and relatives.
>
> "His elder sisters teased him unmercifully."
> "Her eldest daughter is somewhat
> rebellious."
> "My elder brother just proposed to his
girlfriend."
> "My elderly aunt likes to play bridge."
> "Listen to your elders!"
>
> J.
>
Yes, they're properly referred to as "elder" siblings if you are properly
pedantic. Have you ever heard of descriptive grammar?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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janelaw
Well how am I supposed to know? If you did you'd be hearing
about sibling rivalry, sibling rates, sibling
inclusion/admission policies, etc. on a daily basis.
janelaw
I still disagree. We don't speak that old anglo-saxon
language. We kept parts of it as time went on and dropped
others. As least as far as vocabulary goes, we keep the parts
of language that resonate in our culture. Obviously, words fall
into disuse when they no longer serve a purpose. Frequently,
their meaning changes so that they remain useful.
Consider "cadet," for example. In American English the
"youngest son" definition is archaic or obsolete. To us, the
word indicates a military trainee of some sort. Our dialect
kept what it needed. We didn't need a word for youngest son,
because we don't think or talk about youngest sons as a group
anymore. We did need a word for young men who go to military
school. Even though it was only a coincidence that youngest
sons of a certain class went into military training at an
officer-candidate level, that was what resonated in our culture.
I agree that it is difficult to talk about English-speaking
"culture," because the language is part of so many cultures. I
find that individual cultures or subcultures simply diverge
linguistically wherever they need to. Native Americans,
immigrants, etc. retain whatever terms have significance to them
regarding their family relationships. I have friends who use
different words to refer to their maternal and paternal
grandmothers, for example. These words do not spread more
widely because the rest of our culture does not think that way.
Petibacsi
> "His elder sisters teased him unmercifully."
This (and the other ones snipped) is an incredible bad example. The
expression of elder sister is not shorter in any way than older sister.
The original question was why there isn't a one word description in English
for siblings with different age/gender. The use of elder doesn't solve this.
Hello???
P&DSchultz
> I still disagree. We don't speak that old anglo-saxon
> language. We kept parts of it as time went on and dropped
First, there is no "we." English speakers are a diverse group from many
cultures. In fact, many Third Worlders are now sending their children
to learn English not in the UK or the US, but in India, precisely so
they can acquire the language with as little colonialist "culture" as
possible.
Second, the preservation of a feature may have nothing whatever to do
with cultural forces. Arabs use two different words for "uncle" not out
of any expression of culture, but rather so they will be understood.
//P. Schultz
the jungle kitty
>
> On 8 Oct 1998 00:48:59 GMT, janelaw <jan...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >Sibling is commonly used in English. It is not archaic or
> >obsolete.
>
> It is not obsolete, but I have never heard it used even once in
> conversation. It is an ugly word and that may be the reason: brother
> and sister sound so much more human.
>
> Charles
Siblings is not "an ugly word." It is quite common and no less human.
If anything, "siblings" is all-encompassing. It means "my brothers and
my sisters." To me (the youngest of three brothers), it is an
affectionate term.
the jungle kitty
English is the predominant language of India. The social structure and
the role of family are quite complex.
Mr. Riggs,
I believe you are arguing semantics over culture. India is both
English-speaking and "Oriental." Indeed, Sapir-Whorf would have us
believe that India would by now be a "Western" nation.
janelaw
>
> janelaw wrote:
> > I still disagree. We don't speak that old anglo-saxon
> > language. We kept parts of it as time went on and dropped
> > others. ...
>
I don't know if we are having two different conversations or
what.
> First, there is no "we." English speakers are a diverse group from many
> cultures.
I think I acknowledged this when I said:
> I agree that it is difficult to talk about English-speaking
> "culture," because the language is part of so many cultures.
For some reason you chose to snip this part of my post.
Besides, there is NO culture that speaks "that old anglo-saxon
language."
>
> In fact, many Third Worlders are now sending their children
> to learn English not in the UK or the US, but in India, precisely so
> they can acquire the language with as little colonialist "culture" as
> possible.
Maybe I am just brain dead, but I don't know what the hell this
has to do with anything. Who are you referring to when you say
"many Third Worlders?" And what is this "colonialist 'culture'"
that is found in the UK and the US, but not in India? You're
not suggesting that Indians speak anglo-saxon, are you?
> Second, the preservation of a feature may have nothing whatever to do
> with cultural forces.
That this is not true of vocabulary is so self-evident to me
that I can't imagine you mean what you are saying. If a word or
expression has no resonance in a culture, it is not used and
withers from the language. You can't be arguing with that, can
you? What are you trying to say?
> Arabs use two different words for "uncle" not out
> of any expression of culture, but rather so they will be understood.
See, this is where I think we must be having two different
conversations. If Arabic speakers use two different words for
"uncle" and English speakers use one, then Arabic speakers
distinguish between uncles in a way that English speakers do
not. If English speakers habitually referred to their
"maternal" and "paternal" uncles, they I would agree that there
is no underlying cultural difference. But they don't. Because,
at least in the U.S., people don't distinguish between maternal
and paternal uncles. I agree that the Arabic speakers use the
terms to be understood, but they are saying something that "we"
English speakers virtually never say. We don't say it, because
we don't think that way. It's not part of our culture.
> //P. Schultz
P&DSchultz
>
> P&DSchultz wrote:
> ...
> > Arabs use two different words for "uncle" not out
> > of any expression of culture, but rather so they will be understood.
>
> See, this is where I think we must be having two different
> conversations. If Arabic speakers use two different words for
> "uncle" and English speakers use one, then Arabic speakers
> distinguish between uncles in a way that English speakers do
> not. If English speakers habitually referred to their
> "maternal" and "paternal" uncles, they I would agree that there
> is no underlying cultural difference. But they don't. Because,
> at least in the U.S., people don't distinguish between maternal
> and paternal uncles. I agree that the Arabic speakers use the
> terms to be understood, but they are saying something that "we"
> English speakers virtually never say. We don't say it, because
> we don't think that way. It's not part of our culture.
The above seems a good example of "begging the question," in its
classical sense. You seem to be using the assumption that culture
underlies language use to show that culture underlies language use.
Arabs distinguish between two kinds of uncles not because their
culture makes the distinction, but because their LANGUAGE makes
the distinction. If English speakers habitually made the same
distinction, that would not indicate there was no underlying
culture difference. It would indicate that there was no LANGUAGE
difference in that regard. The reason English speakers don't make
the distinction is NOT because the distinction is not part of their
culture; it is because it is not part of their LANGUAGE.
//P. Schultz
janelaw
I get it. You think that language defines culture, that people
distinguish between maternal and paternal uncles because their
language does.
This is so completely at odds with the usual bent of your posts
that I don't know quite what to make of it.
How would you explain the change in usage of "cadet?"
Jane
Charles Riggs
>Charles Riggs wrote:
>> >You don't have school-aged children, do you?
>>
>> Well....duh, no.
>>
>> Charles
>
>Well how am I supposed to know? If you did you'd be hearing
>about sibling rivalry, sibling rates, sibling
>inclusion/admission policies, etc. on a daily basis.
Now I see. Some educators actually *talk* that way? I grew up with a
brother and a sister and I never heard the word until I attended a
group run by several psychologists - a group well known for
mumbo-jumbo and obfuscation. I suppose "sibling" is mild compared to
some of the other terms they like to use.
Charles
Robert Lieblich
<snip>
> Now I see. Some educators actually *talk* that way? I grew up with a
> brother and a sister and I never heard the word until I attended a
> group run by several psychologists - a group well known for
> mumbo-jumbo and obfuscation. I suppose "sibling" is mild compared to
> some of the other terms they like to use.
People are constantly complaining that English has no singular
gender-neutral pronoun (unless you count "singular they," against which
many rebel). So when the language produces a gender-neutral term that
combines "brother" and "sister," and people dare to use it, it's
described as "mumbo-jumbo" and "obfuscation." I suppose this means that
the divorce industry has to abandon "spouse" as well.
Is there a word that combines "brother" and "sister"? Yes. It's
"sibling." Do people use it? Yes, all the time. It's never been just
jargon, and in these gender-neutrality-conscious time it serves a
valuable purpose. The people who have the most need for it use it the
most. Complaining that a perfectly good word is used in its correct
sense strikes me as pissing upwind.
Bob Lieblich
P&DSchultz
> ...
> I don't think you can say, "language makes the distinction" or
> "culture makes the distinction". It's an interplay.
>
> The word or phrase surely doesn't come into being unless the need is
> felt. Once it does exist, it obviously goes on influencing the way
> people think. Much depends on whether it's a word in its own right
> or a phrase (as in English) which can be unbuilt over the years.
> If a relationship is described by its own little word, how do you
> go about changing that? You can't just start referring to
> your {mother's brother} as your {father's brother} -- it would be
> misleading[1], or else it would sound like the most elementary of
> errors, and people would laugh at you. So the distinction would be
> perpetuated, not only in the language but also in the culture.
>
> But of course, the fact that it's a separate word says a lot about
> what the culture considers significant. English-speakers evidently
> see something significant in what all uncles have in common (brother of
> a parent). It might make little sense, in another language/culture,
> to focus on that element -- especially in polygamous cultures, for
> example.
Sensibly and convincingly stated. My only objection, which I restate,
is this: a word may say a lot about what some culture (not "the"
culture) considered (not "considers") significant. Once the change
is made, cultures continue to change, and people from other cultures
adopt the language, etc. Thus the form which may at one time have had
some connection with the culture loses that connection entirely. If
people who now speak Arabic no longer have any cultural reason to
differentiate between types of uncles, the different words will remain
nevertheless. Because if individuals begin using one of the two words
to do duty for the other, they will be misunderstood.
So the differentiation remains there as a relic, not as an insight into
the speaker's culture, or even the culture of the speakers' ancestors.
Yet these exact sorts of phony "insights" are perenially paraded for
contemplation, and everyone is supposed to say "wowee." It's usually
just plain hooey.
//P. Schultz
janelaw
>
>
> I don't think you can say, "language makes the distinction" or
> "culture makes the distinction". It's an interplay.
>
expression. This, in turn, can affect our perception and
interpretation of the world around us. I understand that there
are varying degrees of flexibility among languages. Still, I
think that P's uncle distinction, like our uncle/aunt
distinction, is primarily a reflection of the significance of
gender in our cultures.
> The word or phrase surely doesn't come into being unless the need is
> felt. Once it does exist, it obviously goes on influencing the way
> people think. Much depends on whether it's a word in its own right
> or a phrase (as in English) which can be unbuilt over the years.
I agree that the matter is more complicated when there are
discrete words for each relationship. In my limited experience
with highly inflected languages, distinction between a number of
similar concepts is often accomplished with a common root and
qualifying morphemes. In June's example all the words for
younger siblings in Korean are collapsing into "dongsang," as
the qualifying morpheme becomes optional. But the discrete
terms for older siblings remain. You have to really care a lot
to divide your cousins up into sixteen different groups. Once
there isn't enough cultural pressure to make this distinction,
people tend to drop the morphemes. Similarly, in the English
language system of categorizing cousins, the ordinal and removal
phrases have simply been dropped. The issue arises so rarely
(intestate succession) that most people don't remember how the
system works anymore.
> If a relationship is described by its own little word, how do you
> go about changing that? You can't just start referring to
> your {mother's brother} as your {father's brother}
But people do. Words referring to family members change
meaning. People start calling nurses "older sister" (Peti), or
they apply the term to anyone somewhat older (Opinicus).
"Grandfather" comes to mean any elderly man. When I was growing
up, the title "aunt" was frequently given to an adult woman who
was a friend of the family. In the last decade or so, I have
rarely heard it used at all. I hear people call others
"brother" all the time, but they are never speaking to a
sibling.
One thing people do when a linguistic distinction loses cultural
support is give up one word and apply the other to everyone. As
much as it may gall me, the majority of English speakers in the
U.S. no longer distinguish between "less" and "fewer;" they just
say "less." Similarly, the while/whilst, farther/further,
older/elder, and like/as distinctions are all collapsing as the
first word in the pair is used to refer to both. When social
relationships are involved, speakers sometimes apply the term
with higher status to everyone to reduce offense. We did not
all become "Miss Mary;" we all became "Miss Smith."
Another technique is to use a different word to circumvent the
distinction. In the uncle case, speakers could use a word like
"relative" or "grandfather" for both types of uncle. They could
invent or borrow a new word (like "au pair") or reanimate an old
word (like "nanny" in the U.S.)
The most dramatic example I can think of followed the racial
equality movement in the U.S. People used to be classified by
amount of their "blood" that was African. A person whose
parents were both black was a "negro." Those with one black
parent were called "mulatto." A "quadroon" had one black
grandparent. One black great-grandparent made you an
"octoroon." I have not heard any of these words used since the
1960's. The change was really pretty dramatic. All "colored"
people automatically became "Afro-American." I have to admit
that since these words are no longer used, white people no
longer seem to think of blacks in terms of how much African
"blood" they have.
-- it would be
> misleading[1], or else it would sound like the most elementary of
> errors, and people would laugh at you.
I really think what happens is the older generation sniffs, and
the younger generations say what works for them. Then, once
they become the older generation, they get their way. Also,
when the underlying cultural support for a distinction is
diminishes, I think most people perceive the problem. None of
my children's friends call me "Mrs. Lawrence." No one has ever
called me "Aunt Jane." Within a few decades, the titles seem to
have been dropped by unanimous consent.
> So the distinction would be
> perpetuated, not only in the language but also in the culture.
>
> But of course, the fact that it's a separate word says a lot about
> what the culture considers significant. English-speakers evidently
> see something significant in what all uncles have in common (brother of
> a parent). It might make little sense, in another language/culture,
> to focus on that element -- especially in polygamous cultures, for
> example.
>
This is a side issue. In my dialect "uncle" is also used to
refer to the husband of a parent's sister. I have heard that
not everyone does this.
> [1] There's a not-very-close parallel in Miss/Mrs. Gloria Steinem
> invented Ms precisely because of the difficulty of influencing the
> way existing words are used. As it turned out, the new term did
> influence usage. Many women now feel free to use any of the three,
> regardless of current or past marital status; consequently, the title
> is no longer seen as informational. (At least, that seems to be so
> from where I sit -- wd be interested to hear other perspectives.)
>
> --
> Ellen Mizzell
Okay, just let me get this one last thing off my chest, then
I'll drop the whole subject.
IMHO, the adoption of "Ms." was successful because "miz" was a
common pronunciation for both titles long before Gloria Steinem
figured out how to spell it. It was part of the southern
dialect that migrated north with blacks who moved into northern
cities after
the civil war. The pronunciation "miz" crept into common usage
with increasing frequency as people found themselves addressing
women of unknown marital status.
There, I'm done.
Jane
joy beeson
>Is there a word that combines "brother" and "sister"? Yes. It's
>"sibling." Do people use it? Yes, all the time. It's never been just
>jargon, and in these gender-neutrality-conscious time it serves a
>valuable purpose. The people who have the most need for it use it the
>most. Complaining that a perfectly good word is used in its correct
>sense strikes me as pissing upwind.
"sibling", is like "one" -- it's a very useful word that meets a
strongly-felt need, but if you use it, you sound like a pompous fool
or a stuffed shirt.
I've heard "sibling" in only three ways: Humor, unintentional humor,
and technical term.
Have you ever heard anyone say "go upstairs and tell your siblings
that supper is ready"?
I've heard "sib" used as a technical term; this one sounds as though
it stands a better chance at coming into general use.
Bill McCray
>
>IMHO, the adoption of "Ms." was successful because "miz" was a
>common pronunciation for both titles long before Gloria Steinem
>figured out how to spell it. It was part of the southern
>dialect that migrated north with blacks who moved into northern
>cities after the civil war. The pronunciation "miz" crept into common
>usage with increasing frequency as people found themselves addressing
>women of unknown marital status.
>
learned for "Mrs.". Only when speaking slowly, would it be "Mizzuz". I
have heard "Mizres", but only a couple of times.
"Miss" is pronounced just as it is spelled.
Bill McCray
Lexington, KY
P&DSchultz
> <...>
> I've heard "sibling" in only three ways: Humor, unintentional humor,
> and technical term.
>
> Have you ever heard anyone say "go upstairs and tell your siblings
> that supper is ready"?
I heard my sister-in-law say nearly that exact sentence last month,
with no humor or sarcasm intended. I think it's become a normal word.
Of course, you can find "unintentional humor" in any utterance at all,
if you're that way.
//P. Schultz
E W Beattie
families in former times, not in the English language, but in the language
of heraldry.
Sons would bear their father's arms endorsed at top right with a badge
indicating age rank. There were different badges for the first nine sons.
The significance of age rank was in inheritance, and thereby the marriage
market, aristocratic marriage being a commercial affair, a land deal
usually.
For the ordinary people who had little to leave or inherit, the age rank of
sons meant nothing, so the language never adopted such a usage.
regards
EWB