until and till
cobble
Why does dropping the u and n add an l?
Why don't we write [untill]?
Eric Walker
Better question: why do we ever write "until" at all?
English, especially American English, has the habit of piling up
prepositions. Once upon a time, one checked something to verify it. But
that wasn't enough syllables, so one came to check on it. But that
wasn't enough syllables, so now one checks up on it. What's next in that
series only God and the Devil know.
"Until" is presumably a shotgun wedding of "up till", but spelling
follows no logic in English.
(Answer to the opening question: for the same reason we ever write "upon"
instead of "on".)
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/
Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is isn't a lot of logic in English spelling, but there is some
regularity nonetheless. Most monosyllabic words with short vowels have
-ll rather than -l: ill, kill, fill, bill, will, spill, skill, bell,
fell, well, hell, shell, doll, gull, shall, mall (in British English,
insofar as it's used at all; the American word has a weird
pronunciation with a long vowel that otherwise doesn't exist in
English), but there are exceptions: nil (maybe because its Latin origin
isn't completely forgotten), col (still thought of as Welsh), pal, gal
(not standard words), Hal (proper name). The same sounds at the end of
words of more than one syllable haven't settled down to unique
spellings: I write instil, distil, propel, dispel, etc., but they are
also written with -ll. An analogy of till/until is found with
spell/gospel: nowadays we don't see the "spel" at the end of the latter
as the same word as "spell", but originally it was. Notice also that
skill and will lose their second l when they become skilful and wilful.
So, to summarize, there's not much logic but there's not a total
absence of regularity either.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:00:44 +0000, cobble wrote:
>
>> We write [until], and ['till].
>>
>> Why does dropping the u and n add an l?
>>
>> Why don't we write [untill]?
>
> Better question: why do we ever write "until" at all?
Why is this better? Someone asks about spelling and you decide that
it's better to answer a quite different question about word formation.
>
> English, especially American English,
Relevance to a word that dates to the 13th century?
> has the habit of piling up
> prepositions. Once upon a time, one checked something to verify it. But
> that wasn't enough syllables, so one came to check on it. But that
> wasn't enough syllables, so now one checks up on it. What's next in that
> series only God and the Devil know.
>
> "Until" is presumably
Why presume? Don't you have a dictionary?
> a shotgun wedding of "up till", but spelling
> follows no logic in English.
Not true. It's not obsessively logical, certainly, but there is no
reason to go to the other extreme. See http://www.zompist.com/spell.html
>
> (Answer to the opening question: for the same reason we ever write "upon"
> instead of "on".)
This is not an answer to your opening question,let alone to cobble's
opening question.
--
athel
mm
This must be why I use a Skil saw.
>So, to summarize, there's not much logic but there's not a total
>absence of regularity either.
--
Posters should say where they live, and for which area
they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in
Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:14:57 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> [ ... ]
>> as the same word as "spell", but originally it was. Notice also that
>> skill and will lose their second l when they become skilful and wilful.
>
> This must be why I use a Skil saw.
Proper name, innit?
> --
athel
Isabelle Cecchini
> We write [until], and ['till].
>
> Why does dropping the u and n add an l?
The spelling you have adopted for the second word, <'till>, and your
question about "dropping" letters while we would "add" one to <until>
make me wonder if you don't consider that <till> derives from <until>.
Actually, "until" is the newer --as words go, as it dates back to the
very beginning of the 13th century-- word, and derives from "till". The
prefix "un-", or its ancestor, meant something like "up to", "as far
as", in the older Germanic and Scandinavian languages.
The <'till> spelling was adopted by people who thought that it was an
abbreviation, which is a mistake, etymologically speaking. The majority
spelling is now <till>.
> Why don't we write [untill]?
We might. It is an older spelling.
Other historical spellings for your enjoyment: unntill, untyll, unetyll,
untille, untylle, ontil, ontyll, onetil, ontill, and some others probably.
Regularity in spelling has been at work here, even
if in a limited form. See Athel's answer for further explanations.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Glenn Knickerbocker
>We write [until], and ['till].
Uh, who writes "'till"? I was taught to write either "'til" or "till"
back in grade school.
�R http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/magictop.html
Who sneezed in my arpeggio? My beautiful arpeggio!
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 01:00:44 GMT, cobble wrote:
>> We write [until], and ['till].
>
> Uh, who writes "'till"? I was taught to write either "'til" or "till"
> back in grade school.
>
You've got sharp eyes -- you and Isabelle. I didn't notice the
apostrophe tucked away there next to the opening quote. Indeed, as
there was no apostrophe in the subject line I didn't even think of
looking for it.
--
athel
cobble
I am grateful for your reply. It is full of information.
Pat Durkin
"cobble" <cob...@example.co> wrote in message
news:wuyZm.142$tB5...@newsfe28.ams2...
A good observation, faithfully applied.
Cece
>
> - Show quoted text -
Both 'til and 'till are incorrect spellings.
See what the American Heritage Dictionary has to say:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/till_2
Pat Durkin
"Cece" <ceceliaa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5beda4e2-592f-45bd...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
But neither cobble nor I was commenting on the apostrophe with "till"
and "til". Rather, we were commenting on the dropping of the double
"l" in certain words in peculiar situations such as "spel, wil,
skil" , per Athel's discourse on short vowels, of course. Now maybe
"til" is one of them. But "full", in "graceful, grateful, faithful"
is definitely among them.