Would like to know what it takes to be an EE
chutsu
3rd year (out of 4 or 5 MSc). And was wondering, what do I need to
know in order to be able to design circuits that would allow me to
build a computer from scratch like the APPLE I. Just like how Steve
Wozniak did......
Thanks
Archimedes' Lever
More knowledge than you garnered from the physics group.
Most electrical engineers were firmly entrenched into electrical and
electronic realms long before they entered college.
Most EEs that were not are not very good at it either. They tend to
migrate then toward one of the simpler niches of the discipline that do
not require the depth of knowledge required to be a good EE.
Some number of them pay there way through things like tests and such
too. They really take the cake... as in theft!
Salmon Egg
<d9ae0517-0b40-4e93...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
chutsu <chu...@gmail.com> wrote:
I do not think that college will really prepare you for that, You are
now talking about reproducing 35 year old technology. People now say
they are building computers from scratch if they go to a store like
Fry's and buy a case, a mother board and a few things to plug in. I do
not know if there is anyone using wire wrap to actually build circuits
on an amateur level.
In the old days, a good introduction to what was needed was amateur
radio. There are very few people building their own equipment these
days. From what I just heard that EE undergraduates at UCLA no longer
learn anything about power including three-phase power.
My suggestion is to attend a few IEEE meetings and talk to practicing
engineers there. Maybe look at the publication Nuts and Volts. Do a few
projects escribed there.
Bill
--
An old man would be better off never having been born.
chutsu
wrote:
Ummm.. I believe its more down to how "hungry" the person is for
learning new stuff on electronics...I mean I have done a bit of
soldering back in highschool, but nothing too advanced, I always
soldered the toy kits that gives you instructions on what is where,
and how to do it...but I never actually knew how they worked, (general
picture wise), I mean I am doing physics now, so I do know how a
capacitor or a inductor works, impedance... what is digital logic,
boolean algebra.... and in my own time I would read up on stuff like
AVRs and PICs, (I prefer AVRs purely because it seems to be better
supported for Unix)
But all this is very much fragmented, I know bits and bobs, but I
guess I need a class on like circuit designing, cause at the moment
when I look at circuits, I have no idea why you need a voltage
regulator at certain points, or why you need a resistor in between
address lines, and what not..... So any books that could sort of "Jump
start" me into being able to design my own circuits would be mighty
helpful! :)
chutsu
BTW, reproducing an APPLE I, was simply an example. My ultimate goal
is to make a like (Don't Laugh!) Robot, in the realms of
Mechatronics... I'm actually interested in Robotics after my degree in
Physics, I believe I have the computing skills since I have taught
myself several languages (C, ruby, python, among other web
technologies....), I've done a bit of Mechanics, so only Electronics
is where I'm heading now....
Archimedes' Lever
>
>But all this is very much fragmented, I know bits and bobs, but I
>guess I need a class on like circuit designing,
No. Basic electronics are required long before any circuit design
capacity can be garnered. Seriously. A basic Electronics Technicians
course is the place to start.
IF your grasp of that is very good, you will not need to go much
further. If you have trouble grasping the concepts, then PCB or even
basic circuit design will be a much loftier goal.
Here is the best suggestion I can give that is free, and quite
comprehensive.
chutsu
wrote:
I found this opencourseware, does this also have the concepts you were
mentioning?
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-002Spring-2007/CourseHome/index.htm
Hope for the Heartless
<190dabc7-978d-4b08...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
chutsu <chu...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're at a university, right? So forget getting answers on Usenet,
walk over to the Engineering school and go to one of the EE professors
during his office hours and tell him what you told us. He'll have
familiarity with dozens of EE textbooks and can point you to one that's
at your level of understanding so you can begin to learn about circuit
design.
Engineering professors don't find it at all strange to have somebody from
the Physics department come to them for advise.
If designing circuits is what you want to do for a living, though, you
should consider a change of major. If you're bright enough to do well in
Physics, you're bright enough to learn EE.
Archimedes' Lever
From MIT? I am sure it is quite good, even without looking.
Archimedes' Lever
<h.hea...@bitbucket.gov> wrote:
>You're at a university, right? So forget getting answers on Usenet,
If you were any more retarded, I'd swear that your name was krw.
Archimedes' Lever
<h.hea...@bitbucket.gov> wrote:
> He'll have
>familiarity with dozens of EE textbooks and can point you to one that's
>at your level of understanding so you can begin to learn about circuit
>design.
We already assessed "his level of understanding' from what he said in
his post. It really is quite easy, and no, there is not one engineering
book that he will get. He needs to START with BASIC electronics as anyone
that want to "design circuits should and does.
There is no 'skipping over' in electronics or electrical engineering.
I do not expect a Usenet dissing dipshit like you to have any clue,
however.
The link I posted for him is what the Navy trains their techs on. There
is no better starter course than that, but you wouldn't know.
Archimedes' Lever
<h.hea...@bitbucket.gov> wrote:
>Engineering professors don't find it at all strange to have somebody from
>the Physics department come to them for advise.
That is not what happened, idiot. Advice is quite a few steps down
from what he expected and wants.
Go try to buy a clue somewhere.
James Sweet
>
> BTW, reproducing an APPLE I, was simply an example. My ultimate goal
> is to make a like (Don't Laugh!) Robot, in the realms of
> Mechatronics... I'm actually interested in Robotics after my degree in
> Physics, I believe I have the computing skills since I have taught
> myself several languages (C, ruby, python, among other web
> technologies....), I've done a bit of Mechanics, so only Electronics
> is where I'm heading now....
You don't need an EE degree to do that, there are kids building robots,
thousands of different kits and scratch built designs can be found
online, and these days a nearly standalone microcontroller powerful
enough for some pretty advanced robotics can be had for a few dollars.
The hardware side of robotics is easy, the difficulty is programming it
to behave like you want it to. Check out Make Magazine or Nuts & Volts
for a starting point.
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
> built designs can be found
>online,
He stated that HE wanted to DESIGN it, not use a boilerplate template.
Any monkey can do that, even without being in a college physics course.
krw
wrote:
>Rather stupid question but, I'm doing a Physics degree , only in my
If you want to switch to EE, an MSEE isn't much harder after a BSc in
Physics than after a BSEE; maybe a couple of courses. You really
don't need much EE training to build something "like" and APPLE I. The
only remarkable thing about the Apple was its marketing.
Archimedes' Lever
He doesn't want to "build" something, he wants to DESIGN, then build
it. Learn to read.
krw
See the subject line, DimBulb. He asked the question, AlwaysWrong.
What would you know about being an EE, anyway, AlwaysWrong?
Archimedes' Lever
Read the thread, idiot.
Daniel
More than can be gleaned from Usenet. The advice to ask one of the
lecturers from the engineering department is not bad advice at all. As
a start may i recommend the book "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz
and Hill...i think Ed2 is the latest but i may be wrong. It covers
analogue and digital electronics in a very readable and practical
manner...and in sufficient depth.
What Arch. Lev. says is true also about doing techie stuff. I myself
started building stuff at around 12 years old...the cats whixker xtal
set (ofcourse),amps and a dual beam tetrode power osc/class c amp
transmitter...(highly illegal but fun...aged 15)...tech college 3
years...followed by about 6 years development in med
electronics...then back to school (uni)...power engineering...2
masters degrees (elec eng and power eng)...and now work in the power
utility industry (as a senior engineer). still learning all the time.
It'd be nice if people on this group were not so rude to others who
may have different opinions
Daniel
Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
I was doing fine until I was attacked, as usual.
My NEETS link is a good start he can dive in with right now as well, and
the link he posted from mit looked very viable too, though I have yet to
visit.
The good thing about the NEETS course is that the NAVY tones down the
aptitude level to cover a wider intellect span.
It used to be sixth grade level analogies to express ideas and concepts,
but now, it is a bit more mature, yet still easy to get a grasp of.
I think it is one of the best starting points, short of actual
professional instruction (NEETS).
krw
<OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
The thread didn't answer the question, AlwaysWrong. Go back to
mommy's hamper, fairy.
Archimedes' Lever
You're an idiot. I told him what it takes, and I told him that judging
from the wording of his post, he does not quite yet have the aptitude for
it at that level, and that pursuing a more basic course first would be
the right path.
The right path for you ends with you no longer imposing yourself on
anyone else in the world. Go find a tall bridge and take a fat, flying
leap off of it, you inhuman bane on society.
Bill
> ...what do I need to know in order to be able to design circuits that
> would allow me to build a computer from scratch like the APPLE I.
>
In the old days, everything was an electrical circuit and the wiring was
done by electrical engineers...
Then the microprocessor came along. With these, the internal "wiring" can be
changed with "software" or "firmware". Thus one device (microprocessor) can
perform many different functions.
So you have EE or electrical engineering and this would be the "hardware"
and wiring.
Then you have the field of CS or computer science and this would mainly be
software.
As to "firmware", this is the lowest level software and is typically
contained in a chip near the microprocessor. This gets basic things going so
the computer can then read in an operating system.
Basically hardware people do not know software and software people do not
know hardware. There are rare people who understand both.
Firmware is somewhere in-between hardware and software. But you need to
totally understand the hardware to program this!
And I have seen people with a recent BS in electrical engineering who did
not know what an RE-232-C was (basic serial interface for computers - a
hardware component).
And I have seen computer science graduate students who do not know how to
install an operating system into a computer.
So you can go to school for 6 years and still not know much about computers!
THEREFORE, if you want to do it right, do it yourself! Learn on your own!
And actually this is a necessity in the computer field. Everything changes
every few years, to keep up, you need to be able to learn on your own about
new things.
I would start by learning about microprocessors. How they work. How you
program them with firmware. This is the most fun stuff if you ask me.
Radio Shack has a thing called a Basic Stamp kit for around $100. I have not
bought one, but I assume this would allow you to program the microprocessor.
I don't know if some initial programming is provided or you program it from
scratch? But looks like fun to me!
Then learn about "logic circuits". This would be integrated circuit chips
called "AND gates", "OR gates", "NAND gates", NOR gates, "FLIP-FLOPS", etc.
You can buy these little chips at Radio Shack or an electronics store, get
the appropriate DC power supply, and play with them and see how they work.
These are the building blocks of microprocessors.
Search google.com for the words...
book logic circuits
...and you will find plenty of fascinating reading on this!
Warning: If you are currently in school, don't buy any of this stuff until
summer, you might get sidetracked and your studies will go down the tubes!
This is fun stuff.
Then manufacturers of microprocessors print datasheets for their
microprocessor which has information like this...
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/66062/INTEL/8088.html
And this...
http://www.swansontec.com/sprogram.html
And this...
http://www.olemiss.edu/courses/EE/ELE_485/Fall2001/Handouts/8088_instruction_set_summary_rev.htm
Then the automotive area has some interesting "do-it-yourself" programmable
computers...
http://www.megamanual.com
Here is the computer programming for the above car computer written in a
language called "C"...
http://www.megamanual.com/files/code/main_v2.890.c
Bill
chutsu
Chris
bud--
Of course "Hope" had entirely reasonable advice and you attacked, as usual.
====================
The OP needs to further define what they want to do. Someone doing
robotics doesn't need design the underlying computer. A good computer
designer is unlikely to design robotics. James talks about
microcontrollers, which are a lot simpler to design with than what was
in the Apple 1.
In the good old days a lot of people learned by building ham radios (as
from Salmon Egg) or kits. You used to be able to build scopes or color
TVs from a kit. All the complicated kits are gone now. There also used
to be excellent electronics magazines for hobbyists, like Electronics
World. Mostly also gone. There are some ham mags like "73". I think
"Elektor" from the UK is still around and available at some bookstores
in the US, but I am not sure what is in it now - used to have good
construction projects where you learned what was happening. I agree that
"The Art of Electronics" is a real good book to learn the basics. IMHO
some of us older types had a lot easier time learning electronics.
So what do you want to do? Talking to an EE prof sounds like a good
idea. (But some profs work in relatively exotic theoretical areas.)
--
bud--
Andrew Gabriel
bud-- <remove....@isp.com> writes:
> The OP needs to further define what they want to do. Someone doing
> robotics doesn't need design the underlying computer. A good computer
> designer is unlikely to design robotics. James talks about
> microcontrollers, which are a lot simpler to design with than what was
> in the Apple 1.
>
> In the good old days a lot of people learned by building ham radios (as
> from Salmon Egg) or kits. You used to be able to build scopes or color
> TVs from a kit. All the complicated kits are gone now. There also used
> to be excellent electronics magazines for hobbyists, like Electronics
> World. Mostly also gone. There are some ham mags like "73". I think
> "Elektor" from the UK is still around and available at some bookstores
> in the US, but I am not sure what is in it now - used to have good
> construction projects where you learned what was happening. I agree that
I subscribed to Elektor for 20+ years and it was very good.
I think it's still around, but my subscription long since lapsed.
A magazine I pick up in the US sometimes is Nuts and Volts, but
it's covering slightly different things. Lots of microcontroller
and PIC adverts for kits and prototyping environments, which might
be useful to the OP.
> "The Art of Electronics" is a real good book to learn the basics. IMHO
> some of us older types had a lot easier time learning electronics.
I was designing op-amp circuits as a young teenager - there
wasn't much I couldn't do with a 741... I even came up with
a novel way of generating switching hysteresis before anyone
showed me the right way to do it (or told me what it was called)!
Prior to university, I was strictly into analogue electronics,
but university opened my eyes to digital electronics, and I
designed and built my own Z80 based system during the summer
holiday at the end of the first year.
> So what do you want to do? Talking to an EE prof sounds like a good
> idea. (But some profs work in relatively exotic theoretical areas.)
BTW, I was a physicist at university too - that doesn't stop
you doing electronics. Indeed, my final year project involved
designing and building custom digital interfaces for bubble
chamber imaging. So it may be worth seeing if OP has any
options to include some electronics in his physics work too.
Practical physics research often demands custom built electronic
modules of one form or another, and IME at the time I was there,
the research teams always struggled to find those skills.
Some 30 years later, I still design and build custom circuits
for my own use, and enjoy doing so. I sometimes wonder how long
I'll be able to obtain discrete components that aren't surface
mount, op-amps, 74 series (although I hardly use any of that
anymore), etc. before volumes drop below viable levels for
manufacturers to continue producing them.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Rich.
Based on my experiences out in the field...not much! ;)
chutsu
I generally find that I'm at an age where I have nothing to lose if I
learn everything. Now Robotics is built up from Mechanical
Engineering, Electrical Engineering, and Computer science, which
Physics sort of introduced me to Mechanical Engineering, I do a bit of
Computer Science myself by learning Linux, and all types of
programming languages (C, Ruby, Python)... I'm weekest at Electronics
cause I didn't have a chance to touch on it much. Buying electronic
components are quiet expensive in small batches, and there are no BIG
stores I can walk in and buy random bits in the UK that I know of.
I guess my ultimate goal is to be able to design and build a robot
from ground up.
> So what do you want to do? Talking to an EE prof sounds like a good
> idea. (But some profs work in relatively exotic theoretical areas.)
Its still sort of Xmas holidays so haven't got a chance yet, but
thinking about it! :)
chutsu
lol, if someone can offer me an internship that would be Awesome. No
pay expected. :)
chutsu
> > On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:34:04 -0800 (PST), Daniel <nidan.da...@gmail.com>
I generally find that I'm at an age where I have nothing to lose if I
learn everything. Now Robotics is built up from Mechanical
Engineering, Electrical Engineering, and Computer science, which
Physics sort of introduced me to Mechanical Engineering, I do a bit of
Computer Science myself by learning Linux, and all types of
programming languages (C, Ruby, Python)... I'm weekest at Electronics
cause I didn't have a chance to touch on it much. Buying electronic
components are quiet expensive in small batches, and there are no BIG
stores I can walk in and buy random bits in the UK that I know of.
I guess my ultimate goal is to be able to design and build a robot
from ground up.
> So what do you want to do? Talking to an EE prof sounds like a good
> idea. (But some profs work in relatively exotic theoretical areas.)
Its still sort of Xmas holidays so haven't got a chance yet, but
thinking about it! :)
krw
<OneBi...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
You didn't answer his question at all, AlwaysWrong.
> The right path for you ends with you no longer imposing yourself on
>anyone else in the world. Go find a tall bridge and take a fat, flying
>leap off of it, you inhuman bane on society.
AlwaysWrong, you're *always* wrong. How do you do it? ...no, on
second thought, don't answer. It would be wrong, anyway. In fact,
never answer anything again.
Archimedes' Lever
>To be an EE?
>Based on my experiences out in the field...not much! ;)
Good one!
James Sweet
>
> Radio Shack has a thing called a Basic Stamp kit for around $100. I have not
> bought one, but I assume this would allow you to program the microprocessor.
> I don't know if some initial programming is provided or you program it from
> scratch? But looks like fun to me!
>
I will never understand the popularity of the BASIC Stamp. In the 15+
years since they came out the price has not dropped a cent. While it is
indeed very simple for a beginner to pick one up and get started, for
under 20 bucks you can pick up an Arduino which is many many times more
powerful and nearly as easy to use, and if you're just a little more
adventurous you can get a bare AVR or PIC (probably the two most common
flavors in the hobby world) microcontroller for a few bucks. They can be
programmed in assembly, though most people these days use a higher level
language. C is common and increasing in popularity, but several flavors
of BASIC are common too. I like Bascom for the AVR personally since the
personal version is free and it's very easy to use and powerful.
It's really not too hard to dive into microcontrollers for under 20
bucks total investment assuming you already have a PC. A few years back
I picked up a Zilog Z8 dev kit they were giving out at an introductory
$9.99.
James Sweet
>
> I guess my ultimate goal is to be able to design and build a robot
> from ground up.
>
>
That in itself is an extremely broad topic. What sort of robot do you
have in mind? The hardware and behavior (software) varies dramatically
in complexity depending on what sort of behavior you want it to have.
Most robots are purpose built with a specific task in mind, some common
examples being iRobot's Roomba vacuum cleaners, or the industrial
robotic welders used in automotive manufacturing. It's easy to build
something that qualifies as a robot, it's a lot harder to make something
that performs a useful task.
If you want to build something yourself from scratch, I would recommend
starting with a simple wheeled platform with something like an Arduino
for intelligence to which you can attach difference sensors to
experiment with. You don't need a degree to do this, there's thousands
of teenagers doing this sort of thing in highschool robotics programs.
The knowledge required is broad but not necessarily deep. Electrical and
mechanical engineering, programming, physics, etc, but you don't have to
be a master in any one of them, it's probably 5% education and 95%
tinkering and experimentation.