How to read code from P87C750?

[Gary Walters]

Obsolete data controller from defunct company uses this Philips ucontroller.
Units are failing and customer has the option of either throwing out all his
infrastructure when these units fail and spending $$$$ to replace everything,
or burning new controller ICs as units fail.

<http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/P87C750EBPN.pdf>

It looks like the P87C750 comes with a 16-byte encryption table, optionally
used to encrypt the contents of program memory.

The only way, it seems, to know if the memory contents has been encrypted is
to read the contents and see if it contains legible code.

Is there another means to know if the memory contents have been encrypted?

Thanks.

[hamilton]

1K of code space is not much.

A logic analyzer and a few hours with a working unit and you will have
replacement code ready to go.

How many of these units are we talking about ?

2-3 units a month, 2-3 units a year ??

As the company is now gone, what other type of products are in that
market place ?

In this day and age, building a replacement is easier than fooling with
encryption.

My $.02

hamilton

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 14 Dec 2012 12:22:31 -0800) it happened Gary Walters
<gwp...@yahoo2.cz> wrote in
<0001HW.CCF0CA87...@news.eternal-september.org>:

It should not be impossibe to crack if encrypted, even with all 7 bytes being not 0xff.
The plaintext is asm instructions as machine code,
it probably starts predictabe with jump, fast computer.
I once wrote a 8052 assembler, this seems like a fun project for somebody
who is into that sort of thing.

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 12:22:31 -0800, Gary Walters <gwp...@yahoo2.cz>
wrote:

"The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
architecture..."

ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

[Gary Walters]

> ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!

I hope that's not the sound of The Segue I hear...

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>
>
>"The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>architecture..."
>
>ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!

Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!

[hamilton]

On 12/14/2012 2:18 PM, Gary Walters wrote:

How can I email you directly ?

hamilton

[John Larkin]

What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:49:58 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
><spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>><jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>>architecture..."
>>>
>>>ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>
>>Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!
>
>What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?

The early PICs were about unusable for anything complex (ugly paging
and no interrupts) and I wasted a bit of time trying. I never used the
RCA thing. Maybe some of the 4-bit ones- they were pretty starved of
gates.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[k...@att.bizzz]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:49:58 -0800, John Larkin

<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
><spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>><jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>>architecture..."
>>>
>>>ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>
>>Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!
>
>What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?

The 68000. Too boring. ;-)

[hamilton]

On 12/14/2012 4:49 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
> <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>> <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>> architecture..."
>>>
>>> ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>
>> Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!
>
> What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?
>
>

Think it was this one: RCA CDP1802

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_1802

The Galileo spacecraft used multiple 1802 microprocessors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_%28spacecraft%29

The spacecraft was controlled by six RCA 1802 COSMAC microprocessor
CPUs: four on the spun side and two on the despun side.

spun/despun ????


hamilton

[Phil Hobbs]

On 12/14/2012 6:49 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
> <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>> <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>> architecture..."
>>>
>>> ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>
>> Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!
>
> What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?
>
>

The RCA 1802 was the champ for rad-hard applications such as spacecraft,
for a long long time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA
+1 845 480 2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 19:23:51 -0500, the renowned Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 12/14/2012 6:49 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>> <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>>> <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>>> architecture..."
>>>>
>>>> ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>>
>>> Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!
>>
>> What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?
>>
>>
>The RCA 1802 was the champ for rad-hard applications such as spacecraft,
>for a long long time.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

IIRC, they had a Silicon-on-Saphire version for rad-hard applications.

[k...@att.bizzz]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 19:23:51 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 12/14/2012 6:49 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>> <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>>> <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>>> architecture..."
>>>>
>>>> ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>>
>>> Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!
>>
>> What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?
>>
>>
>The RCA 1802 was the champ for rad-hard applications such as spacecraft,
>for a long long time.

CMOS static cells. Really big CMOS static cells.

[John Larkin]

Hey, I love the 68K. Its assembly language is practically a
higher-level language. The architecture is beautifully symmetric, sort
of a 32-bit PDP-11.

It's big-endian and does a move from source to destination (unlike
certain popular, barbaric architectures I could name.)

[k...@att.bizzz]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 17:11:10 -0700, hamilton <hami...@nothere.com>
wrote:

Part of the spacecraft was spin stabilized, the other not (antennas
and cameras hate that).

Spacecraft

"The spacecraft was constructed in three segments, which help
focus on these areas: the atmospheric probe; a non-spinning
section of the orbiter carrying cameras and other remote sensors;
and the spinning main section of the orbiter spacecraft which
includes the fields and particles instruments, designed to sense
and measure the environment directly as the spacecraft flies
through it. The spinning section also carries the main
communications antenna, the propulsion module, flight computers
and most support systems.

http://www.solarviews.com/eng/galfs.htm

[Phil Hobbs]

When I was a new grad student, I spent one quarter working for Prof.
Peter Banks (who was Sally Ride's advisor) at the STARlab at Stanford.
He was a really good guy, doing interesting stuff, and hey, I thought,
maybe I'll get to fly on a shuttle too. (This was in 1984, before
Challenger.)

The day I decided to bail out and go back to building stuff on optical
tables was the day he announced that he'd finally got approval to fly a
mission he'd first proposed in _1968_. (It was the tethered satellite
approach to electricity generation, the one that had the spectacular
insulation failure on-orbit.)

Another one of his students spent 4 years building an instrument to fly
as a 'getaway special' on a Delta, only to see it go into the Atlantic
and have to get his degree by analyzing somebody's old data. :(

'Tis a bit of a heart-scald, this space business, as my grandmother
might have said.

[Nico Coesel]

Ahhh. Good memories. I had a book about how to build a COSMICOS
home-brew computer (a PCB with among other electronics a hex-keypad
and some 7 segment displays) around a 1802. Never build the thing but
I read the book several times just to learn about designing stuff
around microprocessors.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

[Martin Riddle]

"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:eMudnaHBZ66LXlbN...@supernews.com...

> On 12/14/2012 6:49 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>> <spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>>> <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>>> architecture..."
>>>>
>>>> ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>>
>>> Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48
>>> architecture!
>>
>> What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?
>>
>>
> The RCA 1802 was the champ for rad-hard applications such as
> spacecraft, for a long long time.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --

I still have the 1802 processor manual from my old cosmac Elf.


Cheers

[Martin Crossley]

That sounds an entirely reasonable approach unless you can find someone from
the defunct company.
I know of a couple of products that were in relatively small-scale
production using that series of CPUs unencrypted.
Once they worked, they went straight into production.
I'd assume it's unencrypted until you find anything to suggest otherwise.

[Don Kuenz]

Nico Coesel <ni...@puntnl.niks> wrote:
> hamilton <hami...@nothere.com> wrote:

[snip]

>>Think it was this one: RCA CDP1802
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA_1802
>>
>>The Galileo spacecraft used multiple 1802 microprocessors.
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_%28spacecraft%29
>>
>>The spacecraft was controlled by six RCA 1802 COSMAC microprocessor
>
> Ahhh. Good memories. I had a book about how to build a COSMICOS
> home-brew computer (a PCB with among other electronics a hex-keypad
> and some 7 segment displays) around a 1802. Never build the thing but
> I read the book several times just to learn about designing stuff
> around microprocessors.

The Netronics ELF II was rad-hard. (Hard to use for radian math.) :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELF_II

--
Don Kuenz

[Jasen Betts]

On 2012-12-15, John Larkin <jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

> Hey, I love the 68K. Its assembly language is practically a
> higher-level language. The architecture is beautifully symmetric, sort
> of a 32-bit PDP-11.
>
> It's big-endian and does a move from source to destination (unlike
> certain popular, barbaric architectures I could name.)

Operand order is a function of the assembler, not the architecture.
Eg: if I use "gas" I get the order you, and "AT&T" prefer if I use
"nasm" I get the order intel prefers. endianness OTOH is dictated by
the hardware.




--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

[John Larkin]

Tell that to Intel.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

Custom timing and laser controllers

Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

[k...@att.bizzz]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:41:18 -0800, John Larkin

<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 19:06:24 -0500, k...@att.bizzz wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:49:58 -0800, John Larkin
>><jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
>>><spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>>>><jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>>>>architecture..."
>>>>>
>>>>>ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>>>
>>>>Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!
>>>
>>>What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?
>>
>>The 68000. Too boring. ;-)
>
>Hey, I love the 68K.

Precisely. ;-)

>Its assembly language is practically a
>higher-level language. The architecture is beautifully symmetric, sort
>of a 32-bit PDP-11.

Too boring.

>It's big-endian and does a move from source to destination (unlike
>certain popular, barbaric architectures I could name.)

Um, name be one thing (in this universe) that moves from its
destination to source.

[Oppie]

Let me see if my Needhams EMP30 supports this chip. Worth a shot to see if
the program is secured or not. Some manufacturers set the
security/encryption bit(s) so you can't read it out while others leave it
readable.
I used something similar from Dallas/Maxim (now discontinued)
http://www.keil.com/dd/docs/datashts/philips/8xc750_ds.pdf

[John Larkin]

Intel!

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc

www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

Custom timing and laser controllers

Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

[k...@att.bizzz]

Nonsense. I bet you think all programming languages were invented by
Intel, then. The "destination" variable is almost always on the left.

[petrus bitbyter]

"Gary Walters" <gwp...@yahoo2.cz> schreef in bericht
news:0001HW.CCF0CA87...@news.eternal-september.org...

> Obsolete data controller from defunct company uses this Philips
> ucontroller.
> Units are failing and customer has the option of either throwing out all
> his
> infrastructure when these units fail and spending $$$$ to replace
> everything,
> or burning new controller ICs as units fail.
>
> <http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/P87C750EBPN.pdf>
>
> It looks like the P87C750 comes with a 16-byte encryption table,
> optionally
> used to encrypt the contents of program memory.
>
> The only way, it seems, to know if the memory contents has been encrypted
> is
> to read the contents and see if it contains legible code.
>
> Is there another means to know if the memory contents have been encrypted?
>
> Thanks.
>

There's no use for encryption when the security bits are not set. If they
are set, you'd not be able to read the device anyway. So read the device if
you can, get (or write) an appropriate disassembler and you'll see whether
or not the code makes sense.

petrus bitbyter

[hamilton]

They possibly put in some copyright text into the original source file.

If you can read the chip, if its not all 0xFF 0r 0x00, look for any
ASCII text.

hamilton

[petrus bitbyter]

"hamilton" <hami...@nothere.com> schreef in bericht
news:kaiure$rue$1...@dont-email.me...

Sure, standard procedure - at least my standardprocedure - for examining
unknown .HEX files starts making a hex-dump with ASCII translation. ASCII
strings are often interesting but even if they're not they can be skipped
while disassembling.

petrus bitbyter

[Martin Riddle]

"Gary Walters" <gwp...@yahoo2.cz> wrote in message

news:0001HW.CCF0CA87...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Obsolete data controller from defunct company uses this Philips
> ucontroller.
> Units are failing and customer has the option of either throwing out
> all his
> infrastructure when these units fail and spending $$$$ to replace
> everything,
> or burning new controller ICs as units fail.
>
> <http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/P87C750EBPN.pdf>
>
> It looks like the P87C750 comes with a 16-byte encryption table,
> optionally
> used to encrypt the contents of program memory.
>
> The only way, it seems, to know if the memory contents has been
> encrypted is
> to read the contents and see if it contains legible code.
>
> Is there another means to know if the memory contents have been
> encrypted?
>
> Thanks.
>

Gary, I have a DS-750 dev kit from Ceibo. It has 2 87C750's
<http://ceibo.com/eng/pdf/ds750.pdf>
Its dos or win98 based. It will read or write the devices.
If you want to give it a shot let me know.

Cheers

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Dec 2012 00:40:36 +0100) it happened "petrus bitbyter"
<petrus....@hotmail.com> wrote in
<50cd0a55$0$3186$e4fe...@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl>:

>Sure, standard procedure - at least my standardprocedure - for examining
>unknown .HEX files starts making a hex-dump with ASCII translation. ASCII
>strings are often interesting but even if they're not they can be skipped
>while disassembling.
>
>petrus bitbyter

Yep, once a guy in a crypt newsgroup referred to some unknown code,
I gave him all he menu choices.
He said: How The f*ck did you figure that?
I replied in Linux:
strings filename

[Gary Walters]

> How can I email you directly ?

notax2day at the popular "Y" service.

Thanks.

[Robert Baer]

Gary Walters wrote:
> Obsolete data controller from defunct company uses this Philips ucontroller.
> Units are failing and customer has the option of either throwing out all his
> infrastructure when these units fail and spending $$$$ to replace everything,
> or burning new controller ICs as units fail.
>
> <http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/P87C750EBPN.pdf>
>
> It looks like the P87C750 comes with a 16-byte encryption table, optionally
> used to encrypt the contents of program memory.
>
> The only way, it seems, to know if the memory contents has been encrypted is
> to read the contents and see if it contains legible code.
>
> Is there another means to know if the memory contents have been encrypted?
>
> Thanks.
>

I think i have a complete programming kit which has all manuals.
I also have a bunch of the P87C750s.
If you want all of that, let me know and i will dig it up and send to
"first come first served" - just pay reasonable estimate for shipping.

[josephkk]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:49:58 -0800, John Larkin
<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:47 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
><spef...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:15:59 -0800, John Larkin
>><jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
>>>architecture..."
>>>
>>>ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>>
>>Well, it sure beat the heck out of the preceding MCS-48 architecture!
>
>What was really the worst uP architecture? That RCA 17xx thing?

My vote is for the Fairchild 3850.

?-)

[stratus46]

On Dec 14 2012, 1:15 pm, John Larkin <jlar...@highlandtechnology.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 12:22:31 -0800, Gary Walters <gwp...@yahoo2.cz>

> >Obsolete data controller from defunct company uses this Philips ucontroller.
> >Units are failing and customer has the option of either throwing out all his
> >infrastructure when these units fail and spending $$$$ to replace everything,
> >or burning new controller ICs as units fail.
>
> ><http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/philips/P87C750EBPN.pdf>
>
> >It looks like the P87C750 comes with a 16-byte encryption table, optionally
> >used to encrypt the contents of program memory.
>
> >The only way, it seems, to know if the memory contents has been encrypted is
> >to read the contents and see if it contains legible code.
>
> >Is there another means to know if the memory contents have been encrypted?
>
> >Thanks.
>

> "The Philips 8XC750 offers the advantages of the 80C51
> architecture..."
>
> ADVANTAGES of the 8051 architecture???!!!
>

> --
>
> John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
>
> jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot comhttp://www.highlandtechnology.com
>

> Precision electronic instrumentation
> Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

> Custom laser drivers and controllers

> Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

> VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation

Well if ALL you know is MCS-51, then it would be an advantage. I've
written lots of MIDI code in MCS-51 and it's a clunky architecture. I
just get the impression that some of the instructions were added as
'Oh, Yeah'.

Does the op know if security is set? Tektronix used 8751s as the
controllers in the 17xx series broadcast video scopes. The 'security
bit' wasn't set so we just copied from a good scope to repair the
broken ones. Good old JDR Microdevices EMUP programmer. Still got it
with a pentiun 166.

G²

[Ian Field]

"petrus bitbyter" <petrus....@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:50cd0a55$0$3186$e4fe...@dreader36.news.xs4all.nl...

If you have an old 16 bit laying about put the ROM contents into a disk file
and view the hex dump with Xtreegold.