Pingy Steve Spence
GeekBoy
see.
I have noticed you posting about your off-grid home.
I am planning to buy some property out in the middle of nowhere, hence no
utilities at all for several miles around.
So I am wondering if you have site were you you have posted of what you did
for your own house to make it self sufficent.
Thanks!
GB
George Ghio
Can't beat the comedy on NGs.
Steve Spence
http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_%26_Power_System
http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Our_Solar_PV_System
and back issues of ESSN Magazine at http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
Primarily we put in almost all 120vac compact fluorescent lighting, a
few 12vdc fluorescent lights, plus two propane lights.
water heater, dryer, fridge, and kitchen stove are all propane (to be
converted to biomethane).
100 watts of PV (to be expanded as soon as possible), a 300 watt AIR 303
wind turbine (next to useless), and our Veggie oil fueled diesel generator.
A very efficient front loader washer reduces electric and water needs.
A very efficient woodstove heats the whole 2 story, 2100 sq. ft. home
even at -40 in February.
http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Wood_Heat
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
Solar Flare
"George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
news:432c0...@news.chariot.net.au...
George Ghio
Off grid home.
1 panel, couple of Trojan batteries and a bloody great diesel generator.
Ya gotta laugh.
GeekBoy
"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:IPTWe.1841$gE7....@fe08.lga...
> GeekBoy wrote:
>> I would have emailed you, but I though this post would be best for all to
>> see.
>>
>> I have noticed you posting about your off-grid home.
>>
>> I am planning to buy some property out in the middle of nowhere, hence no
>> utilities at all for several miles around.
>>
>> So I am wondering if you have site were you you have posted of what you
>> did for your own house to make it self sufficent.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> GB
>
> http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_%26_Power_System
>
> http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Our_Solar_PV_System
>
> and back issues of ESSN Magazine at http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
>
> Primarily we put in almost all 120vac compact fluorescent lighting, a few
> 12vdc fluorescent lights, plus two propane lights.
>
> water heater, dryer, fridge, and kitchen stove are all propane (to be
> converted to biomethane).
>
> 100 watts of PV (to be expanded as soon as possible), a 300 watt AIR 303
> wind turbine (next to useless), and our Veggie oil fueled diesel
> generator.
>
> A very efficient front loader washer reduces electric and water needs.
>
> A very efficient woodstove heats the whole 2 story, 2100 sq. ft. home even
> at -40 in February.
>
> http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Wood_Heat
Thanks for the great info! You must live an area that is not very hot in the
summer.
The area I would be moving into would be desert. Not good for A/C, but maybe
evaporative cooling which would use less electric than and A/C anyway.
GB
Steve Spence
> Get a picture in your mind.
>
> Off grid home.
>
> 1 panel, couple of Trojan batteries and a bloody great diesel generator.
>
> Ya gotta laugh.
>
you can't count, can you george? You missed on this one too.
3 PV panels, 6 trojan batteries, one wind generator, and very little
electrical loads, as the four major appliances, stove, fridge, water
heater and dryer are all propane, and the heat is wood. and yes, one
bloody marvelous veggie oil fueled gen.
Steve Spence
>
> Thanks for the great info! You must live an area that is not very hot in the
> summer.
> The area I would be moving into would be desert. Not good for A/C, but maybe
> evaporative cooling which would use less electric than and A/C anyway.
>
> GB
>
We sometimes hit 90F in summer .....
George Ghio
Steve Spence wrote:
> George Ghio wrote:
>
>> Get a picture in your mind.
>>
>> Off grid home.
>>
>> 1 panel, couple of Trojan batteries and a bloody great diesel generator.
>>
>> Ya gotta laugh.
>>
>
> you can't count, can you george? You missed on this one too.
>
> 3 PV panels, 6 trojan batteries, one wind generator, and very little
> electrical loads, as the four major appliances, stove, fridge, water
> heater and dryer are all propane, and the heat is wood. and yes, one
> bloody marvelous veggie oil fueled gen.
>
>
In your own words;
100 watts of PV (to be expanded as soon as possible), a 300 watt AIR 303
wind turbine (next to useless), and our Veggie oil fueled diesel generator.
So it would seem that you have 3- 33W panels. Wow.
An almost useless wind turbine.
And a bloody great generator.
Yesiree! A great system. With the batteries three sets in parallel as well.
Anthony Matonak
> Steve Spence wrote:
>> George Ghio wrote:
>>
>>> Off grid home.
>>> 1 panel, couple of Trojan batteries and a bloody great diesel generator.
>>> Ya gotta laugh.
>>
>> you can't count, can you george? You missed on this one too.
>>
>> 3 PV panels, 6 trojan batteries, one wind generator, and very little
>> electrical loads, as the four major appliances, stove, fridge, water
>> heater and dryer are all propane, and the heat is wood. and yes, one
>> bloody marvelous veggie oil fueled gen.
>
> An almost useless wind turbine.
> And a bloody great generator.
>
> Yesiree! A great system. With the batteries three sets in parallel as well.
I don't see what your problem is.
What part of his system do you find laughable?
Steve seems to be a great proponent of biofuels and veggie oil.
Seems fairly reasonable that he would actually use them.
Anthony
Steve Spence
> So it would seem that you have 3- 33W panels. Wow.
>
> An almost useless wind turbine.
>
> And a bloody great generator.
>
> Yesiree! A great system. With the batteries three sets in parallel as well.
That's much better George. It's much better when you tell the truth. It
is a great system, because it's designed around my LOADS. As a solar
"consultant", you of all people should know that your loads drive the
size of the system. It's not how big it is, it's how you use it ......
George Ghio
Couldn't agree more. Aside from the Trojan batteries in parallel and 100
watts of solar and a useless wind gen.
But all that aside, Steve promotes veg oil as "Waste" and "Cheap".
First, veg oil is not "Waste". It is a resource that soon will not be
available to the back yard boys. It will become a value added product.
As such it will become a part of the worlds energy supply.
Second, How much do you think used veg oil represents in the energy stakes.
The place to start is the delivery of the seed to the farmer.
Energy used.
Field plowed.
Energy used.
Crop sown.
Energy used.
Crop sprayed.
Energy used.
Crop harvested
Energy used.
Seed transported to oil producer
Energy used.
Seed processed.
Energy used.
Bulk oil transported.
Energy used.
Oil repackaged as consumer product
Energy used.
Consumer product delivered to wholesaler.
Energy used.
Product delivered to resaler.
Energy used.
Product picked up by Steve
Energy used.
Catalyzed into fuel.
Energy used.
That's thirteen steps for just an outline of the energy used for Steve
to have his "Cheap"" fuel.
Gosh! It doesn't look all that cheap does it? But so what, Steve gets it
for next to nothing. Right?
Thing is it reminds me of the gambler, who can brag about winning $1000
on a $5 bet. Of course he totally disregards the fact that all the other
$5 bets paid nothing. Or the fact that he gambled $100,000 in the past
year to "Win" $10,000. All he remembers is that he won $10,000.
That's Steve. He trivializes a resource by conveniently forgetting the
true cost of energy.
The truth is that the circle will have to be closed for agriculture to
be sustainable in the future.
No longer can the west piss their energy up against the wall.
The US does not own enough oil stocks to allow Steve to play with his toys.
Taking oil from other countries under the guise of fighting terrorism
only prolongs the inevitable.
Nah, you're right, it really is depressing. I shouldn't laugh. But it's
better than prozak.
Steve Spence
product used for frying food, paying for all previous steps.
> Product picked up by Steve
>
> Energy used.
I was on my way home from work, store or someplace anyway.
>
> Catalyzed into fuel.
MY wvo isn't "catalyzed", it's just filtered.
>
> Energy used.
No, energy produced.
>
George is showing his confusion again. WVO is free, and it's currently
being landfilled in many communities, including ours, so it makes more
sense to recycle it instead of wasting it.
Jens Kr. Kirkebø
<ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>> Get a picture in your mind.
>>
>> Off grid home.
>>
>> 1 panel, couple of Trojan batteries and a bloody great diesel generator.
>>
>> Ya gotta laugh.
>>
>
>you can't count, can you george? You missed on this one too.
>
>3 PV panels, 6 trojan batteries, one wind generator, and very little
>electrical loads, as the four major appliances, stove, fridge, water
>heater and dryer are all propane, and the heat is wood. and yes, one
>bloody marvelous veggie oil fueled gen.
Propane fridges are very inefficient. A standard 105L propane fridge
uses ~300g of propane a day which equals ~3.9Kwh. Cost to me: around
$1.50 in 10L bottles, $0.30 in large quantities. A 12V 110L fridge
uses 0.6Kwh per day. Price of grid power: 6 cents. An additional 150W
PV will power it, cost about $650. Even if you get the 300g of propane
for $0.30, payback is less than 6 years excluding interest.
Needless to say, I chose the 12V fridge for my off-grid cabin, the
model is Coolmatic MDC110 (Danfoss BD35F compressor).
Steve Spence
> Propane fridges are very inefficient. A standard 105L propane fridge
> uses ~300g of propane a day which equals ~3.9Kwh. Cost to me: around
> $1.50 in 10L bottles, $0.30 in large quantities. A 12V 110L fridge
> uses 0.6Kwh per day. Price of grid power: 6 cents. An additional 150W
> PV will power it, cost about $650. Even if you get the 300g of propane
> for $0.30, payback is less than 6 years excluding interest.
>
> Needless to say, I chose the 12V fridge for my off-grid cabin, the
> model is Coolmatic MDC110 (Danfoss BD35F compressor).
>
>
Between my propane fridge, my propane dryer, my propane stove/oven, and
propane water heater, I use 200 gallons of propane every 3 months. Grid
power is $0.15 / kWh and $15,000 away.
Jens Kr. Kirkebø
<ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>> Propane fridges are very inefficient. A standard 105L propane fridge
>> uses ~300g of propane a day which equals ~3.9Kwh. Cost to me: around
>> $1.50 in 10L bottles, $0.30 in large quantities. A 12V 110L fridge
>> uses 0.6Kwh per day. Price of grid power: 6 cents. An additional 150W
>> PV will power it, cost about $650. Even if you get the 300g of propane
>> for $0.30, payback is less than 6 years excluding interest.
>>
>> Needless to say, I chose the 12V fridge for my off-grid cabin, the
>> model is Coolmatic MDC110 (Danfoss BD35F compressor).
>>
>Between my propane fridge, my propane dryer, my propane stove/oven, and
>propane water heater, I use 200 gallons of propane every 3 months. Grid
>power is $0.15 / kWh and $15,000 away.
Do one usually measure propane in gallons ? I've ever only seen it
measured by weight.
grid power is far away and expensive a my cabin too but I have PVs. My
point is that if you already have the charge controller, batteries and
wiring set up, an additional battery, PV and a 12V fridge makes more
sense than a propane fridge, both economically and ecologically.
For those that have grid power, an induction hob is more than twice as
efficient than a gas hob.
George Ghio
Steve Spence wrote:
> George Ghio wrote:
>
>> But all that aside, Steve promotes veg oil as "Waste" and "Cheap".
>>
>> First, veg oil is not "Waste". It is a resource that soon will not be
>> available to the back yard boys. It will become a value added product.
>> As such it will become a part of the worlds energy supply.
>>
>> Second, How much do you think used veg oil represents in the energy
>> stakes.
>>
>> The place to start is the delivery of the seed to the farmer.
>>
>> Energy used. Field plowed. Energy used. Crop sown. Energy used. Crop
>> sprayed. Energy used. Crop harvested Energy used. Seed transported to
>> oil producer
>> Energy used. Seed processed. Energy used. Bulk oil transported. Energy
>> used. Oil repackaged as consumer product Energy used. Consumer product
>> delivered to wholesaler. Energy used. Product delivered to resaler.
>> Energy used.
>
>
> product used for frying food, paying for all previous steps.
Wrong again Steve. The crop was subsidized in the first place.
>
>> Product picked up by Steve
>>
>> Energy used.
>
>
> I was on my way home from work, store or someplace anyway.
>
>>
>> Catalyzed into fuel.
>
>
> MY wvo isn't "catalyzed", it's just filtered.
Wow one step removed from a rough outline.
>
>>
>> Energy used.
>
>
> No, energy produced.
>
Right. "NO" energy produced.
>
>
> George is showing his confusion again. WVO is free, and it's currently
> being landfilled in many communities, including ours, so it makes more
> sense to recycle it instead of wasting it.
>
>
This won't last.
Face it Steve you did not win $1000 on a $5 bet. I suggest you take off
your rose colored glasses.
Already in the UK people are having to pay fuel excise on Veg oil used
as fuel.
Your system is almost totally dependent on the generator. Not exactly
revolutionary is it.
Solar Flare
not usually need to offend people without provocation.
You seem to have a wealth of information. You need a delivery that works
now.
"George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
news:432cb1e6$1...@news.chariot.net.au...
GeekBoy
"Jens Kr. Kirkebø" <j...@scm.no> wrote in message
news:l4nri1hfk80qr7a5m...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 16:57:30 -0400, Steve Spence
> <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
>>> Propane fridges are very inefficient. A standard 105L propane fridge
>>> uses ~300g of propane a day which equals ~3.9Kwh. Cost to me: around
>>> $1.50 in 10L bottles, $0.30 in large quantities. A 12V 110L fridge
>>> uses 0.6Kwh per day. Price of grid power: 6 cents. An additional 150W
>>> PV will power it, cost about $650. Even if you get the 300g of propane
>>> for $0.30, payback is less than 6 years excluding interest.
>>>
>>> Needless to say, I chose the 12V fridge for my off-grid cabin, the
>>> model is Coolmatic MDC110 (Danfoss BD35F compressor).
>>>
>>Between my propane fridge, my propane dryer, my propane stove/oven, and
>>propane water heater, I use 200 gallons of propane every 3 months. Grid
>>power is $0.15 / kWh and $15,000 away.
>
> Do one usually measure propane in gallons ? I've ever only seen it
> measured by weight.
It is usually measured in gallons in higher quantities
George Ghio
careful to omit his actual load. How many kWh a day. This is common
among people who want to fool themselves into believing that they have a
great system. As long as they don't admit to an actual load they can't
be exposed for wishful thinking.
100 Watts will give 8.3 Amps on a clear frosty morning. Less as the
panels warm up. Say a bit less than 7 Amps. So for 5 hours of sun he
could get around 30 - 35 Ah/day.
A load of 1 kWh = 83 kWh/day
Thats a lot of gen time.
I use around 1 to 1.2 kWh a day.
8 - 80 watt panels (250 Ah/5hours
840 Ah of batteries (6 - 2v cells)
Currently I also use gas for Hw, fridge and cooking. I also use wood for
heat.
I do not run any lighting off the inverter. In fact the only thing I run
off the inverter is the computer and printer. Also occasionally the cake
mixer or Turntable for converting vinyl to cd
My lighting is all 12V QH in 5 and 10 Watt globes placed for max
efficiency in use.
Steve is trying to fool someone. I suspect, only himself.
As far as the veg oil thing goes Steve is fooling himself there as well.
Dr Diesel designed his motor to run on veg oil. Nothing new there. It
won't last. The tighter fuel supplies get the sooner veg oil to fuel
will be grabbed by the oil co's.
George
Jens Kr. Kirkebø
<michael.m...@drdc-rddc.gc.ca> wrote:
>>>> grid power is far away and expensive a my cabin too but I have PVs. My
>>>> point is that if you already have the charge controller, batteries and
>>>> wiring set up, an additional battery, PV and a 12V fridge makes more
>>>> sense than a propane fridge, both economically and ecologically.
>
>You might want to qualify the "ecologically" part of that. PV is an
>exceptionally wasteful way of producing power. The energy it takes to
>make your new panel will almost cetainly be as bad for the environment
>as the propane, except that propane generally produces only CO2 and CO
>which are eventually used by living organisms, and the manufacture of PV
>generates toxic chemicals which aren't.
Last time I heard PVs make back the power to make them in 4-6 years.
Even if it was 10 years they are warranted for 25 years and will
probably last a 100 years.
The production of propane is not exactly pollution-free either, nor
the making of the storage tanks or transport of it. I don't really see
the difference.
You also have to keep producing the propane, the PVs are a one-time
thing. Granted, you'll probably need a new AGM battery every 10 years
or so.
daestrom
> Yeah. What leaves Steve open to ridicule is the fact that he is very
> careful to omit his actual load. How many kWh a day. This is common among
> people who want to fool themselves into believing that they have a great
> system. As long as they don't admit to an actual load they can't be
> exposed for wishful thinking.
>
> 100 Watts will give 8.3 Amps on a clear frosty morning. Less as the panels
> warm up. Say a bit less than 7 Amps. So for 5 hours of sun he could get
> around 30 - 35 Ah/day.
>
It isn't really normal to rate a 100 watt panel at 0 C. At
www.solarelectricpower.org they state that panels are normally rated at 25C
and that output is reduced by 0.5% per degree C rise.
To reduce output from 8.3 to 7 (nearly 16%) reduction, that would imply a 32
C rise in temperature as the day progresses. Not unheard of in some very
dry climates, but unusual in upstate NY.
More likely, if the temp is 0C first thing in the morning, the temp might
rise to 10-12 C on a sunny day. And even if the collector is running 20C
above ambient, that still is only 7C above the rated point of 25C. So
output in the morning would be *higher* than your 8.3, and drop to about 8.0
during the day (if the sun stays out, winters can be a bit unpredictable).
In the summer, it would be less output current due to the higher
temperatures, but then there are more hours. Your winter-time scenario
might be more like 8.0 amps for about five hours for more like 40 Ah/day.
> A load of 1 kWh = 83 kWh/day
>
No, a load of 1kWh of energy is just that, 1 kWh. Even a load of 1kW
continuous for 24 hours would only be 24 kWh/day. With storage and inverter
losses, that might go as high as 24/0.64 = 37.5 kWh/day.
> Thats a lot of gen time.
Only because your math seems pretty flakey. And unit analysis would help
you keep kWh and kW straight.
daestrp,
wmbjk
wrote:
>Yeah. What leaves Steve open to ridicule
In general, readers of these newsgroups take Steve seriously for very
good reason. He does more good for the home power crowd in a month at
ESSN alone than you've done in a lifetime. Perhaps if you didn't spend
so much time trying to invent problems with others' setups you might
be taken seriously as well.
> is the fact that he is very
>careful to omit his actual load. How many kWh a day. This is common
>among people who want to fool themselves into believing that they have a
>great system. As long as they don't admit to an actual load they can't
>be exposed for wishful thinking.
>
>100 Watts will give 8.3 Amps on a clear frosty morning. Less as the
>panels warm up. Say a bit less than 7 Amps. So for 5 hours of sun he
>could get around 30 - 35 Ah/day.
His wind turbine can potentially outproduce his PV. And yet you left
it out of your calculations...
>A load of 1 kWh
You're mixing up power and energy units for about the five hundredth
time. Regardless, where did this "1 kWh" number come from? Apparently
it's more of your wishful thinking.
> = 83 kWh/day
That's very creative, and exactly the level of accuracy that we've all
come to expect from you. The number might even be correct on Planet
Nitwit, but here on Earth there aren't quite so many hours in a day.
>Thats a lot of gen time.
It sure is, except that it's just another wacky Ghioism which served
no purpose other than to demonstrate your own muddled thinking and
propensity for blundering the simplest of calculations.
>I use around 1 to 1.2 kWh a day.
>8 - 80 watt panels (250 Ah/5hours
>
>840 Ah of batteries (6 - 2v cells)
>
>Currently I also use gas for Hw, fridge and cooking.
What do you mean "currently"? Haven't you been burning fuel for 95% of
your energy needs for *20 years*? Should we be expecting some
"breaking" news?
> I also use wood for
>heat.
>
>I do not run any lighting off the inverter. In fact the only thing I run
>off the inverter is the computer and printer. Also occasionally the cake
>mixer or Turntable for converting vinyl to cd
>
>My lighting is all 12V QH in 5 and 10 Watt globes placed for max
>efficiency in use.
>
>Steve is trying to fool someone. I suspect, only himself.
No, *you* are trying to fool people into believing that there's
something wrong with Steve's approach.
>As far as the veg oil thing goes Steve is fooling himself there as well.
No, it's you who's fooling yourself if you believe you can convince
anyone that your comments stem from anything other than your
compulsive need to invent fault.
The fact is that both of you are getting the majority of your energy
from burning fuel. But there are two major differences between you -
Steve is paying a lot less for his fuel, and Steve gives freely of his
time to help others while you spend yours criticizing.
>Dr Diesel designed his motor to run on veg oil. Nothing new there. It
>won't last. The tighter fuel supplies get the sooner veg oil to fuel
>will be grabbed by the oil co's.
Steve has been reaping the benefits of using recycled oil for many
years. Odds are he'll be doing so for many more years. And I expect
that he'll be making steady improvements to his setup while you
continue to discredit yourself by carping about others.
Wayne
George Ghio
about the "Real" output for you wind gens?
Not a clue.
Sad really
wmbjk wrote:
Nonsense removed
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 15:36:00 +1000, George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Yeah. What leaves Steve open to ridicule
>>is the fact that he is very
>>careful to omit his actual load. How many kWh a day. This is common
>>among people who want to fool themselves into believing that they have a
>>great system. As long as they don't admit to an actual load they can't
>>be exposed for wishful thinking.
>>
>>100 Watts will give 8.3 Amps on a clear frosty morning. Less as the
>>panels warm up. Say a bit less than 7 Amps. So for 5 hours of sun he
>>could get around 30 - 35 Ah/day.
>>= 83 kWh/day
>>Thats a lot of gen time.
>>I use around 1 to 1.2 kWh a day.
>>8 - 80 watt panels (250 Ah/5hours
>>
>>840 Ah of batteries (6 - 2v cells)
>>
>>Currently I also use gas for Hw, fridge and cooking.
>
>>I also use wood for
>>heat.
>>
>>I do not run any lighting off the inverter. In fact the only thing I run
>>off the inverter is the computer and printer. Also occasionally the cake
>>mixer or Turntable for converting vinyl to cd
>>
>>My lighting is all 12V QH in 5 and 10 Watt globes placed for max
>>efficiency in use.
>>
>>Steve is trying to fool someone. I suspect, only himself.
>>As far as the veg oil thing goes Steve is fooling himself there as well.
>>Dr Diesel designed his motor to run on veg oil. Nothing new there. It
Steve Spence
>>> For those that have grid power, an induction hob is more than twice as
>>> efficient than a gas hob.
>
> Pardon my ignorance what is a 'hob'?
apparently it's an overseas term for those cooktops that you drop into a
countertop?
Jens Kr. Kirkebø
<ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>>>> For those that have grid power, an induction hob is more than twice as
>>>> efficient than a gas hob.
>>
>> Pardon my ignorance what is a 'hob'?
>
>apparently it's an overseas term for those cooktops that you drop into a
>countertop?
Correct. English is not my first language so I might mix some british
and american words once in a while :)
Mike McWilliams
>>> grid power is far away and expensive a my cabin too but I have PVs. My
>>> point is that if you already have the charge controller, batteries and
>>> wiring set up, an additional battery, PV and a 12V fridge makes more
>>> sense than a propane fridge, both economically and ecologically.
You might want to qualify the "ecologically" part of that. PV is an
wmbjk
wrote:
>What about those two days of autonomy? What is your daily load? What
>about the "Real" output for you wind gens?
>
>Not a clue.
>
>Sad really
The race for saddest thing going on in these newsgroups is between
your miserable attempts to smear another poster by using bungled
fantasy numbers, and the magic free-energy timepiece touted by News.
It's a tough one to call. But since you're allegedly a professional
and should know better, I say you're ahead by a Pinocchio nose.
>Nonsense removed
Oh my, while snipping "nonsense" you seem to have accidentally removed
a single line of your own text. And I'll be darned, it happens to be
the one with the confused units and the mystery math. What a
coinkydink. I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone to think you were
sweeping a blunder under the rug, so I'll just put the line back for
you -
>A load of 1 kWh = 83 kWh/day
Perhaps you have an explanation loaded with non-sequiturs and pithy
Ozzyisms? Or maybe you'll be a man and admit your blunders for a
change. Hey, another contest! Your growing a spine versus Big Ben
winding his own chimes. Sorry George, gotta give this one to Ben. ;-(
Wayne
George Ghio
What about those two days of autonomy? What is your daily load? What
about the "Real" output for you wind gens?
Not a clue.
Sad really
>
>>A load of 1 kWh = 83 kWh/day
Sorry folks, that is of course 83 Amp hours per day.
1000Wh / 12V = 83.333 Amp hours which is more than twice the solar input.
So it all comes down to Steve's actual load.
But like Wayne it's a fair bet that he doesn't know his actual load.
If you like listening to a generator all hours then Steve's system would
be a good one to copy.
If you live next door to Wyne and don't mind haveing somewhat less than
two days reserve, at a undisclosed load then you can copy Waynes system.
Hell, you could copy my system. At least you would have an honest 1 -
1.2 kWh per day with 5 days reserve.
But, if you want a system to serve "your" needs "you" will need to
design a system to meet "your" needs. And you really can't do that by
copying someone else's system.
Neither Wayne or Steve have been able to provide enough information
about their loads to to know what their systems will do. Are you feeling
lucky?
George Ghio
Sorry folks, that is of course 83 Amp hours per day.
1000Wh / 12V = 83.333 Amp hours which is more than twice the solar input.
>>
>
>
> No, a load of 1kWh of energy is just that, 1 kWh. Even a load of 1kW
> continuous for 24 hours would only be 24 kWh/day. With storage and inverter
> losses, that might go as high as 24/0.64 = 37.5 kWh/day.
>
>
>>Thats a lot of gen time.
>
>
> Only because your math seems pretty flakey. And unit analysis would help
> you keep kWh and kW straight.
Might even help with Amp hours, Eh.
>
> daestrp,
>
>
George Ghio
daestrom wrote:
> "George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
> news:432e4...@news.chariot.net.au...
>
>>Yeah. What leaves Steve open to ridicule is the fact that he is very
>>careful to omit his actual load. How many kWh a day. This is common among
>>people who want to fool themselves into believing that they have a great
>>system. As long as they don't admit to an actual load they can't be
>>exposed for wishful thinking.
>>
>>100 Watts will give 8.3 Amps on a clear frosty morning. Less as the panels
>>warm up. Say a bit less than 7 Amps. So for 5 hours of sun he could get
>>around 30 - 35 Ah/day.
>>
>
>
> It isn't really normal to rate a 100 watt panel at 0 C.
I did not rate the panels at 0C. I stated that the only time you could
get the full 100W (8.3 A) would be on a very cold and clear morning.
At
> www.solarelectricpower.org they state that panels are normally rated at 25C
> and that output is reduced by 0.5% per degree C rise.
>
> To reduce output from 8.3 to 7 (nearly 16%) reduction, that would imply a 32
> C rise in temperature as the day progresses. Not unheard of in some very
> dry climates, but unusual in upstate NY.
Sharp ND-L3EJE 123 Watt panel - SC current 8.1A & MP current 7.16A.
I think, given the claimed 100 Watts, that I was quite generous.
>
> More likely, if the temp is 0C first thing in the morning, the temp might
> rise to 10-12 C on a sunny day. And even if the collector is running 20C
> above ambient, that still is only 7C above the rated point of 25C. So
> output in the morning would be *higher* than your 8.3, and drop to about 8.0
> during the day (if the sun stays out, winters can be a bit unpredictable).
>
> In the summer, it would be less output current due to the higher
> temperatures, but then there are more hours. Your winter-time scenario
> might be more like 8.0 amps for about five hours for more like 40 Ah/day.
IF the panels are brand new, maybe. After twelve months, not a hope.
>
>
>>A load of 1 kWh = 83 kWh/day
As I have corrected 83Ah/day.
Solar ~ 30 - 35 Ah/day.
Generator ~ 48 Ah/day.
Odds are that he uses more than 1kWh/day. Every 250Whs adds 20.8Ah that
the gen must make up.
I have two complaints about this system;
3 sets of batteries in parallel,
Deliberate obscurantism of system parameters.
R.H. Allen
Funny, you're comparing the emissions that result from the USE of one
thing to those that result from the PRODUCTION of another thing. If I
reverse your comparison and compare the emissions from the propane
production process to those from PV cells in operation (nothing) I can
make propane look pretty nasty by comparison.
At any rate, if you're thinking PV production generates toxins like the
microelectronics industry does when it makes microchips, stop. It
doesn't. PV production uses somewhere between a tenth and a hundredth
the number of production steps, and the IC production steps that produce
the nastiest waste are absent from the PV production process. PV
manufacturing's largest waste products are simple acids and bases, which
are trivially neutralized into saltwater.
I'm not saying that PV production generates NO toxic chemicals, just
that it doesn't produce nearly as much as you seem to think. I suspect
it looks quite clean next to the processes that produce propane. Ever
seen a petroleum refinery?
wmbjk
wrote:
>>>A load of 1 kWh = 83 kWh/day
>
>Sorry folks, that is of course 83 Amp hours per day.
Ah, but you also wrote: "Thats a lot of gen time". In fact, 1kWhr is
only 6 minutes at 10kW. Where is that "a lot", other than in a
fogged-up mind?
>1000Wh / 12V = 83.333 Amp hours which is more than twice the solar input.
>So it all comes down to Steve's actual load.
...which you've now apparently arbitrarily decided isn't 1kW after
all, but 1kWhr per day, and that half of it can come from his PV. But
he has a wind turbine as well, which you insist on ignoring to serve
your warped purpose. Let's give that turbine a real-world rating of
100 Watts, potentially available 24 hours a day. Which is as much as
an additional 5 times more than you've calculated. Or put another way,
with an average of 5 hours per day of wind and sun, the system will
supply 1kWhr per day. Which means that your entire line of reasoning
in this thread is just a bunch of useless gum flapping, as usual.
It seems that you're never going to learn that every time you attempt
to smear another poster, the only thing that's proven is your own
ignorance.
Wayne
Mike McWilliams
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:39:53 -0600, Mike McWilliams
> <michael.m...@drdc-rddc.gc.ca> wrote:
>
> Last time I heard PVs make back the power to make them in 4-6 years.
> Even if it was 10 years they are warranted for 25 years and will
> probably last a 100 years.
Under ideal conditions the payback may be 4-6 years, which is usually
far from reality. They don't last 100 years, efficiency dropping off
somewhere near 20 years if you're lucky.
Steve Spence
> Under ideal conditions the payback may be 4-6 years, which is usually
> far from reality. They don't last 100 years, efficiency dropping off
> somewhere near 20 years if you're lucky.
I'd like to know where you got this info. Amorphous drop shortly after
put into use, but hold at near rated power. crystalline panels may lose
20% but that's not at 20 years, or even 25. Warranties expire at 25
years, but those panels can easy deliver close to rated power for 30
years and longer. Our panels are close to 20 years old, and are still
putting out close to rated power, within 10%, and they were used arco
panels used in a concentrator system.
daestrom
>
>
> daestrom wrote:
>> "George Ghio" <A...@nomailhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:432e4...@news.chariot.net.au...
>>
>>>Yeah. What leaves Steve open to ridicule is the fact that he is very
>>>careful to omit his actual load. How many kWh a day. This is common among
>>>people who want to fool themselves into believing that they have a great
>>>system. As long as they don't admit to an actual load they can't be
>>>exposed for wishful thinking.
>>>
>>>100 Watts will give 8.3 Amps on a clear frosty morning. Less as the
>>>panels warm up. Say a bit less than 7 Amps. So for 5 hours of sun he
>>>could get around 30 - 35 Ah/day.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It isn't really normal to rate a 100 watt panel at 0 C.
>
>
> I did not rate the panels at 0C. I stated that the only time you could get
> the full 100W (8.3 A) would be on a very cold and clear morning.
>
So, you're saying that a panel rated at 100 watts at 25C (the normal
operating temperature for rating them) won't produce 100 watts at 25C?
Sounds like a poor rating system to me.
> At
>> www.solarelectricpower.org they state that panels are normally rated at
>> 25C and that output is reduced by 0.5% per degree C rise.
>>
>> To reduce output from 8.3 to 7 (nearly 16%) reduction, that would imply a
>> 32 C rise in temperature as the day progresses. Not unheard of in some
>> very dry climates, but unusual in upstate NY.
>
> Sharp ND-L3EJE 123 Watt panel - SC current 8.1A & MP current 7.16A.
>
> I think, given the claimed 100 Watts, that I was quite generous.
Not really. You apparently use only 14V or something.
http://solar.sharpusa.com/files/sol_dow_123watt_SS.pdf
Shows the maximum power point of 7.16 A at 17V. Unless your not using a
good mppt controller, it should be easy to get 120 watts in full sun.
>>
>> More likely, if the temp is 0C first thing in the morning, the temp might
>> rise to 10-12 C on a sunny day. And even if the collector is running 20C
>> above ambient, that still is only 7C above the rated point of 25C. So
>> output in the morning would be *higher* than your 8.3, and drop to about
>> 8.0 during the day (if the sun stays out, winters can be a bit
>> unpredictable).
>>
>> In the summer, it would be less output current due to the higher
>> temperatures, but then there are more hours. Your winter-time scenario
>> might be more like 8.0 amps for about five hours for more like 40 Ah/day.
>
> IF the panels are brand new, maybe. After twelve months, not a hope.
Got any data to describe the drop of output versus usage?
daestrom
George Ghio
wmbjk wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:40:40 +1000, George Ghio <A...@nomailhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>A load of 1 kWh = 83 kWh/day
>>
>>Sorry folks, that is of course 83 Amp hours per day.
>
>
> Ah, but you also wrote: "Thats a lot of gen time". In fact, 1kWhr is
> only 6 minutes at 10kW. Where is that "a lot", other than in a
> fogged-up mind?
>
Wow. Steve has a battery charger that has a 10kW output.
You do realize that this is 833 Amps. Which is the C10 rate of charge
for a battery bank of 8330 A hours. Could void the warranty, hell it
could void the battery box. And that does not even consider why Steve
would run a 10kW gen set for a 1kWh load, or for that matter why a 10kW
gen set to run a 130 amp battery charger.
If Steve's batteries are L16s then the required C10 charge rate would be
130A.
I do believe we have attained a wonderful insight into your ability.
None.
>
>>1000Wh / 12V = 83.333 Amp hours which is more than twice the solar input.
>
>
>>So it all comes down to Steve's actual load.
>
>
> ...which you've now apparently arbitrarily decided isn't 1kW after
> all, but 1kWhr per day, and that half of it can come from his PV.
Considerably less than half. Solar ~ 30 - 35 Ah/day.
Generator ~ 48 Ah/day.
Funny idea of half.
But
> he has a wind turbine as well, which you insist on ignoring to serve
> your warped purpose. Let's give that turbine a real-world rating of
> 100 Watts, potentially available 24 hours a day. Which is as much as
> an additional 5 times more than you've calculated.
It appears that you are unable to read.
Steve's own words; "300 watt AIR 303 wind turbine (next to useless)"
Says it all really.
Or put another way,
> with an average of 5 hours per day of wind and sun, the system will
> supply 1kWhr per day. Which means that your entire line of reasoning
> in this thread is just a bunch of useless gum flapping, as usual.
>
Wayne it seems that you're never going to learn that every time you
attempt to smear another poster, the only thing that's proven is your
own ignorance.
Now we know why you can't tell us how you worked out 2 days autonomy.
George Ghio
The only time a panel will have its rated output is under ideal test
conditions.
Here in central Vic, today, it is a wonderful day, the sun is out the
temp is low twentys. It looks great.
Trouble is, that if you know what you are looking at, it is obvious that
there is a fine cloud haze. To the extant that I am down 3 amps on the
PV input from my array. This is based on logged data.
Ideal test conditions are hard to come by.
My point is realistic day to day use. You can believe what you like. But
solar panels, in real use, very seldom produce the rated output obtained
in simulated testing at the factory.
This has been stated hundreds of time in these NGs over the years.
So the question is "How gullible do you want us to believe you are?"
wmbjk
wrote:
>Wow. Steve has a battery charger that has a 10kW output.
No, he has a co-gen setup that runs on veggie oil. Which means he can
run it cheaply for heat, and/or power large loads, and/or charge as
need be. It's a good approach, which is something that won't change no
matter how much time you're willing to waste inventing fault with it.
Wayne
George Ghio
wmbjk wrote:
More nonsense. Removed.
He also totally ignored the ignorant twaddle he posted before.
i.e.
"Ah, but you also wrote: "Thats a lot of gen time". In fact, 1kWhr is
only 6 minutes at 10kW. Where is that "a lot", other than in a
fogged-up mind?"
1 kWh = 83Ah from the batteries and Wayne, as can be seen by the above,
says that this can be replaced in six minutes.
Is there anyone here who would like to try this theory?
Given 6 - L16 Trojans wired series parallel for a bank of 12V @ 1314Ah
You task, should you accept it, is to use 1kWh from this battery bank
and and recharge it in 6 minutes at 833.33 Amps.
Misinformation and bull shit would seem to be Wayne's hallmark.