GM Canada partnership key as Chevrolet prepares to launch the world's largest fuel cell vehicle fleet

lkgeo1

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Oct 22, 2006, 1:14:22 PM10/22/06

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GM Canada partnership key as Chevrolet prepares to launch the world's
largest fuel cell vehicle fleet

Publication Date:22-October-2006
12:00 AM US Eastern Timezone
Source:The Mississauga News
There was a special Canadian connection recently when General Motors
Corp. committed to building the world's largest fuel cell vehicle fleet
during the Company's reveal of its next generation fuel cell vehicle -
the Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell. "General Motors is demonstrating its
commitment to hydrogen fuel cells as the answer for taking the
automobile out of the environmental debate and reducing our dependence
on petroleum," said Arturo Elias, President, GM Canada.

"We are especially proud that through partnerships with the Federal and
Ontario governments, our Canadian operations will play an important
role in the preparation of the Equinox Fuel Cell which will be powered
by GM's most advanced fuel cell propulsion system to date. This
demonstrates an important milestone on GM's pathway to
automotive-competitive fuel cell propulsion technology development."

With support from the Federal and Ontario Governments as part of GM
Canada's Beacon Project (announced in March 2005) GM's engineering
centre in Oshawa is playing a key engineering role in the conversion of
more than 100 Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell vehicles to be placed with
regular GM customers in the fall of 2007.

The Chevrolet Equinox, currently manufactured in Ingersoll was the
first vehicle to be both lead-engineered and built in Canada. In
addition to final integration work for the Chevrolet Equinox fuel cell
vehicles that will be conducted at the GM Canada regional engineering
centre, special cold weather development work will be carried out for
these zero emission vehicles at GM's cold weather development centre in
Kapuskasing, Ont.

A comprehensive deployment plan, dubbed "Project Driveway", is designed
to gain comprehensive learnings on all aspects of the customer
experience and constitutes the first meaningful market test of fuel
cell vehicles anywhere. A variety of drivers, in differing driving
environments, will operate these vehicles in three geographic areas
where hydrogen refueling is feasible: California, the New York
metropolitan area, and Washington, DC.

Enabled by GM's fourth generation fuel cell propulsion system, the
Equinox Fuel Cell is a fully functional crossover vehicle, engineered
for an 80,000 km life. Importantly, the Equinox Fuel Cell is able to
start and operate in sub-freezing temperatures.

It is expected to meet all applicable 2007 US federal motor vehicle
safety standards, and is equipped with a long list of standard safety
features including driver, passenger and roof rail airbags, Anti-Lock
Braking System (ABS), StabiliTrak stability enhancement technology and
OnStar, while providing all of the environmental benefits of hydrogen
fuel cell technology.

"Ontario has worked hard to support and encourage leading-edge
investments in our automotive industry," said Joseph Cordiano, Minister
of Economic Development and Trade. "GM is leading the way in fuel cell
technology which will result in benefits to the environment and build
on the province's strengths as an innovative economy."

The "Project Driveway" market test will provide comprehensive insight
into all aspects of the customer experience, including reaction to the
exciting, smooth, and quiet performance of a fuel cell vehicle, and
refueling with clean hydrogen gas.
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage6268.html

Tater

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Oct 22, 2006, 1:48:47 PM10/22/06

to

lkgeo1 wrote:
> GM Canada partnership key as Chevrolet prepares to launch the world's
> largest fuel cell vehicle fleet
>

Anyone know a way of making money on fuelcells when everyone realizes
that they just wont work?

sheesh

Trygve Lillefosse

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Oct 22, 2006, 3:02:47 PM10/22/06

to

Please share you insight. Why is it impossimble to use a fuel-cell?
Will it not deliver electricity? Will it explode? Is there some
serious design flaws?

Please tell, pretty please

--
SEE YA !!!
Trygve Lillefosse
AKA - Malawi, The Fisher King

lkgeo1

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 3:21:35 PM10/22/06

to

yes yes , please tell the board why fuel cells wont work. by the way,
you can start by explaining your expertese on this matter, before you
hit the kill file for eternity.

lkgeo1

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 3:21:28 PM10/22/06

to

yes yes , please tell the board why fuel cells wont work. by the way,
you can start by explaining your expertese on this matter, before you
hit the kill file for eternity.
Tater wrote:

lkgeo1

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 3:33:26 PM10/22/06

to

OHHHHHHHHHHHH MY, ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE WRONG:
Tater wrote:Win a Pioneer navigation system on Autoblog! | Add to My
AOL, MyYahoo, Google, Bloglines

Add to: My AOL, MyYahoo, Google, Bloglines
Iceland to Philadelphia - care for a piece of our hydrogen economy?
Posted Oct 22nd 2006 12:08PM by Sebastian Blanco
Filed under: Hydrogen

Hjalti Pall Ingolfsson of Icelandic New Energy is coming to
Philadelphia this week on an evangelizing mission. Ingolfsson
(pictured) is well suited to explain how other areas can learn from
Iceland's shift to a hydrogen economy. He wrote his masters' thesis on
the feasibility of exporting hydrogen from Iceland to the continent of
Europe with the Icelandic New Energy and the University of Iceland.
This trip to Pennsylvania makes me think he's setting his sights on
both sides of the pond now. Ingolfsson's presentation is part of an
entire week of Icelandic events, which also includes Icelandic movies
and music.

The hydrogen presentation takes place this Tuesday at 11 a.m. at the
University of Pennsylvania. GM will represent in Philadelphia this week
with its prototype hydrogen minivan, the GM HydroGen3.

[Source: Iceland Naturally]

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Yamaha to unveil hydrogen fuel-cell scooter at EVS-22
Posted Oct 20th 2006 5:12PM by Derrick Y. Noh
Filed under: Hydrogen

At last year's Tokyo Motor Show, Yamaha introduced a fuel cell scooter
called the FC-me. It ran on a liquid methanol-water solution and its
size and performance would have fit nicely in the 50cc gas-fueled
class. This year, Yamaha is upping the ante with the FC-AQEL, a 125cc
comparable two-wheel fuel-cell that they'll show off at the 22nd
Electric Vehicle Symposium in Yokohama, Japan.

The biggest difference between the FC-me and the FC-AQEL, other than
size and weight, is that this time they're fueling the stack with two
high-pressure hydrogen tanks rather than a methanol solution.

Now, how long is it going to take Yamaha engineers to create an 800cc
comparable fuel cell race bike for Rossi?

You can read the entire translated press release after the jump. Here's
a link to the original if you prefer reading it in Japanese.

[Source: Yamaha via Digital World Tokyo]
Continue reading Yamaha to unveil hydrogen fuel-cell scooter at EVS-22

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AutoBlogGreen Q&A with Greg Frenette, Ford fuel cell chief engineer
Posted Oct 20th 2006 3:31PM by Sam Abuelsamid
Filed under: Hybrid, Hydrogen, Ford, AutoblogGreen Q & A, AutoblogGreen
Exclusive

Following a recent post about a short drive in a prototype fuel cell
powered Ford Focus, some questions were raised in the comments
comparing Ford's technology with that of Honda on their FCX fuel cell
concept. AutoBlogGreen posed some of these questions to Greg Frenette.
Greg is the Chief Fuel Cell Programs Engineer at Ford.

A reminder, the fuel cell Focus has been on the road for almost two
years and the fleet has accumulated over 300,000 miles so far. The
Focus that is on the road right now is a first-generation, road-worthy
fuel cell vehicle. A next generation car is currently under development
and will include many advancements and lessons learned from this first
generation car. ABG's questions, Greg's answers and more pics are after
the jump

Continue reading AutoBlogGreen Q&A with Greg Frenette, Ford fuel cell
chief engineer

PermalinkEmail thisLinking BlogsComments [3]

Popular Mechanics gives us the truth about hydrogen
Posted Oct 18th 2006 6:19PM by Bruno Vanzieleghem
Filed under: Hydrogen

Popular Mechanics is giving their readers the truth about hydrogen,
describing what it thinks are the four major roadblocks to the hydrogen
economy: production, storage, distribution and use. While a number of
technologies are available to produce hydrogen, they each have their
specific drawbacks.

To produce hydrogen without producing carbon emissions, electricity
generated from renewable resources can be used to split water into
hydrogen and oxygen. The next generation of nuclear plants also promise
to produce hydrogen without carbon emissions, but there are clearly
other concerns when considering this option. When it comes to storing
hydrogen, the different solutions either require significant amount of
energy, or result in very large tanks or very heavy tanks. It sounds a
lot like choosing between three evils. As for distribution, pipelines
and local production sound like the solutions that are the most
interesting.

While some see a hydrogen economy where everything is powered by the
simplest element in the universe, the most promising use of hydrogen is
in transportation. Whether hydrogen will be burned in internal
combustion engines, or powering fuel cells, it might not be the silver
bullet some people think it is, but it does have its place in a future
where a whole array of energy alternatives will be available.

[Source: Popular Mechanics]
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How a hydrogen filling station works; AutoblogGreen tours new facility
in Taylor, MI
Posted Oct 18th 2006 2:51PM by Sam Abuelsamid
Filed under: Hydrogen, Ford, AutoblogGreen Exclusive

Prior to the opening of the new Taylor, MI hydrogen filling station
yesterday, AutoblogGreen got to tour the facility. This station was
built by a partnership between Ford, BP and BOC Group. The BOC Group
actually supplies the hydrogen for the station and BOC Project
Development Manager for Hydrogen Energy Robert Boyd explained how this
system works. With a traditional gas station, a big storage tank is
buried in the ground and filled with fuel. When you put the nozzle in
the car a pump in the tank pushes the liquid fuel through the hose into
the car's gas tank. The process is a little more complex for hydrogen.
Behind the brick wall beyond the pump in the top photo is the hydrogen
distribution system. More after the jump.

Continue reading How a hydrogen filling station works; AutoblogGreen
tours new facility in Taylor, MI

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What about the hydrogen that's used to make Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel and
comes mostly from natural gas
Posted Oct 18th 2006 9:38AM by Sebastian Blanco
Filed under: Diesel, Emerging Technologies, Hydrogen

Well, Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) has been readily available all of
three days, let's argue about it. Yesterday, the president and CEO of
the American Chemistry Council, Jack Gerard, issued a statement saying
that U.S. lawmakers need to change the policy regarding access to
domestic natural gas sources if we're going to keep making ULSD. Why is
this, you ask? Because you can use hydrogen to desulferize diesel fuel.
So while we've now got diesel engines that emit up to 90-some percent
fewer particulates, we've also got to get all this extra hydrogen.

Gerard's statement was, in part, "Today, most ULSD is produced by
treating the fuel with hydrogen to remove sulfur and other impurities.
Most of that hydrogen is produced directly from methane contained in
natural gas. Yet federal policies continue to put most U.S. natural gas
supplies off-limits. If the nation is to be successful in our pursuit
of cleaner diesel fuel, then Congress needs to change energy policies
to help bring about reliable, affordable access to natural gas."

If you're interested in the details of diesel hydrotreatment
possibilities, check out this article from when the Department of
Energy looked at the issue of ULSD techniques in 2001.

[Source: American Chemistry Council]

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Stretch Batmobile might one day be used for public transportation
Posted Oct 17th 2006 10:44PM by Sebastian Blanco
Filed under: EV/Plug-in, Hydrogen, Transportation Alternatives

Every wanted to ride in a stretch limo at 155 miles an hour? How about
a stretch limo that looks like the Batmobile? If the Delft University
of Technology gets the Superbus public transportation concept off the
drawing board, you'll get your chance.

The news of the Superbus came out last month in the Economist, but I'm
finally mentioning it here because it's so cool. The Superbus is an
electric bus that rides on dedicated tracks at speeds of up to 155 mph,
and can then shift to standard roads for more reasonable driving. It's
the same length and width of a city bus, but a lot shorter (about as
tall as an SUV). This gives the Superbus a more aerodynamic look (which
isn't hard when compared to the rectangle that is most buses). The
engineers are still working out whether fuel cells or batteries will
power the Superbus, but I know I want to ride on it when it's
available. Since there won't be dedicated stops (you text message a
request to be picked up), I guess I'll have to get a text phone by the
time a working prototype is unveiled at the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

[Source: Economist, belated hat tip to Jeremy Switzer]

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China's first fuel cell car now a reality
Posted Oct 17th 2006 6:44PM by Derrick Y. Noh
Filed under: Hydrogen

One doesn't normally think of Chinese automakers immediately when it
comes to advanced power trains and breakthrough vehicle technologies,
but that may change pretty soon. Fuel Cell Today is reporting that
China has built its first fuel cell car. It's the result of a joint
effort involving Tsinghua University, Chery Auto and J&K Technologies
that started in 2005.

Not resting on their laurels, Tsinghua University's Zong Qiang Mao told
the National Hydrogen Association earlier this year in Long Beach,
California that China would have 20,000 fuel cell buses in operation by
2020.

Fuel Cell Works has the text of the actual press release which seems to
state that the car tops out at 80 kph (about 50 mph) with an engine
cost increase of just 10 percent over a traditional car. I'm not
entirely certain why they state that last part as the engine is
probably a pretty simple electric motor. If they're going to start
talking prices, it's the fuel cell stack that we're interested in.

[Source: Fuel Cell Today]
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Agni registers design rights for a different kind of hybrid car
Posted Oct 17th 2006 6:04PM by Derrick Y. Noh
Filed under: Biodiesel, Diesel, Hybrid, Hydrogen, Solar

When you say "hybrid" in these parts, it's possible you could mean a
couple different things. Gas-electrics are the well-known norm while
diesel-electrics are slowly gaining some press and exposure. Well, how
about combining hydrogen, biodiesel, grid-electricity and the sun?

Today Agni Inc., an alternative energy technology company, announced
the registration of the design rights for its second generation REAL AF
(Renewable Energy Automobile - Ambiente Futuro). The car has got an
electrical propulsion system that runs on Agni's Hydrogen Power Module,
however, for longer trips the car will run on diesel or biodiesel. If
that weren't enough, the car also has a large electrical storage unit
that can be charged either by solar cells (which appear to be mounted
to the top half of the hood and roof in the picture) to get the most
out of those sunny days, or from a wall outlet. Oh, and the car also
comes with a kit that will allow you to make your own biodiesel fuel
from vegetable oil. Unfortunately, the press release is very brief and
doesn't list any detailed specs. (I already shot them an email request
for additional info. Hopefully, we'll hear back shortly.)

As for performance, the REAL AF will take you from 0 to 62 mph in 8
seconds and delivers 100 km/L on diesel power. That comes to about 235
mpg (if I did the conversion properly) which we remain skeptical about.
Considering, though, that the car's got all four wheels firmly rooted
in environmental friendliness, we'll hold judgment until we hear more.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure if the vehicle's diesel power plant
drives the wheels, or charges a battery. Take a look at the wording of
the press release, yourself. Either way, 235 miles per gallon seems
awfully high.

Until we get more information, click here to visit their website or
here to read the old press release for the first generation REAL which
was fuel cell-only.

[Source: Fuel Cell Works]
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Taylor, MI joins the hydrogen economy
Posted Oct 17th 2006 2:48PM by Sam Abuelsamid
Filed under: Biodiesel, Emerging Technologies, Hydrogen, Ford,
AutoblogGreen Exclusive

Taylor, MI is a city just east of Detroit Metropolitan Airport. Most
people who don't live their have probably never heard of it. However,
Taylor has been a leader in alternative fuel use for several years.
They acquired their first vehicles powered by compressed natural gas
back in 1999. According to Bob Mach, Taylor's Superintendent of vehicle
maintenance, Taylor is currently running 16 CNG vehicles and is also
running all of their diesel vehicles on B20 bio-diesel. Today Taylor
joined Sacramento and Orlando as the site of a hydrogen filling
station, in a partnership between Ford, BP, and BOC.

A ribbon cutting ceremony followed remarks by several representatives
of the partnership. Taylor Mayor Cameron G. Priebe, Wayne County
executive Robert Ficano, and Rep. John Dingell all made some remarks
about bringing advanced alternative energy development to Michigan.
Dingell represents the area in congress and is a ranking member of the
House Energy and Commerce Committee. In addition Maria Curry-Nkanah of
BP and John Sakioka of Ford also talked about the program. The reason
that Taylor is getting the hydrogen station is because Ford is
providing the city four fuel cell powered Focuses. More after the jump.

Continue reading Taylor, MI joins the hydrogen economy

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UTC Power's PureMotion 120 drives test buses running on hydrogen fuel
cells
Posted Oct 17th 2006 1:38PM by Sebastian Blanco
Filed under: Hydrogen

Watch out back there, there's more news of government support for
hydrogen fuel cells incoming. Yesterday, we heard that UTC Power (a
company owned by United Technologies Corp.) would be part of three
zero-emission bus projects sponsored by the Federal Transit
Administration (FTA). These California and Washington, D.C. projects
are each multimillion endeavors grouped in the National Fuel Cell Bus
Technology Development competitive grant program. UTC's fuel cell power
system is called PureMotion 120 and is designed for buses in
"high-profile sites". UTC Power will use PureMotion 120 in four buses
in D.C., a high-temperature, low-humidity test bus in the California
desert and in "accelerated life testing" of buses in service in the
Oakland area.

The FTA wants to have fuel cells make up about 10 percent of U.S.
transit bus purchases by 2015.

[Source: UTC Power]

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Latest hybrids, fuel cells on display at EVS-22
Posted Oct 17th 2006 11:03AM by Mike Magda
Filed under: Etc., EV/Plug-in, Green Culture, Hybrid, Hydrogen,
Transportation Alternatives, Toyota

Toyota, Hino and Daihatsu will showcase their latest hybrids and fuel
cell vehicles at the upcoming 22nd International Battery, Hybrid and
Fuel Cell Electric Symposium & Exposition (EVS-22). The event will take
place Oct. 23-28 in Yokohama, Japan. Toyota will have the Lexus GS 450h
hybrid and its fuel-cell bus along with the Fine-X fuel-cell hybrid
(shown). The Fine-X features 4-wheel independent drive and a wild
steering system for tight turns. Hino will have diesel hybrid trucks
while Daihatsu shows off a hybrid minivan and the Copen EV concept
2-seater convertible with retro flavor styling. There's a picture of
the Daihatsu Copen Concept after the jump.

[Source: hybridcar.com]
Continue reading Latest hybrids, fuel cells on display at EVS-22

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Ride in a hydrogen car in Michigan Tuesday morning
Posted Oct 16th 2006 10:47PM by Sebastian Blanco
Filed under: Hydrogen, Ford

The City of Taylor, Michigan and Ford are offering up ride and drive
opportunities in Ford fuel cell vehicles tomorrow morning. The ride and
drives are part of the opening of a hydrogen fueling station at the
city's Department of Public Works (which sure doesn't sound like a
publicly available hydrogen pump to me). Representative John Dingell
and representatives of BP and the Department of Energy will also be
present at the event, which takes place from 10 to 11 am.
AutoblogGreen's Sam Abuelsamid will be attending and giving us a
first-hand account. Stay tuned.

Ford's press release doesn't say which fuel cell vehicles will be
available, but I'm guessing they'll be hydrogen Focuses. The city uses
three of these cars, part of a fleet of 30 around the world. Ford is
also working on a fleet of E-450 buses that run on hydrogen.

Ford to add PZEV badge to California vehicles
Ford to offer hydrogen ICE shuttle buses to customers this year
[Source: Ford]
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ECD Ovonic to present at Alternative Energy & Cleantech Conference on
October 17
Posted Oct 16th 2006 4:40PM by Sam Abuelsamid
Filed under: EV/Plug-in, Hydrogen

A company called Energy Conversion Devices was formed in 1960, but they
didn't really become well known until the mid 1980s when a unit of the
company called Ovonic Batteries came into being. Ovonic gained some
prominence in the late '80s for their developments in nickel-metal
hydride batteries. These batteries were a huge advance over the
conventional lead acid batteries that are typically used in cars. Many
of the major car-makers went to Ovonic for batteries to power the
electric vehicles they were developing in advance of the abortive
California zero emission vehicle regulations. After Bob Stempel was
bounced from the CEO position at General Motors he landed at Ovonic,
first as a consultant and now as the chairman and CEO. Ovonic
eventually supplied batteries for the Chrysler's electric minivans and
the General Motors EV1.

Today the company is known as ECD Ovonics and one of their main
development areas is on hydrogen storage systems. They have a solid
metal hydride hydrogen storage tank system that they are demonstrating
in a some Toyota Priuses. The Prius has been equipped with a
turbocharger to provide performance comparable to the gasoline powered
version when operating on hydrogen. The Prius and the solid hydrogen
storage system were displayed at the companies booth at the SAW
congress last spring.

ECD Ovonics James R. Metzger, Executive Vice President and Chief
Operating Officer, and Sanjeev Kumar, Vice President and Chief
Financial Officer will be making a presentation at the Jefferies &
Company, Inc.'s European Alternative Energy & Cleantech Conference on
October 17, 2006, being held in London, U.K. The company will be
providing a live webcast of the presentation, and the presentation
material, will be accessible through ECD Ovonics' website. There is no
mention of what will be discussed but a followup report will be
available afterward if anything new is revealed.

[Source: ECD Ovonics]

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HyPower receives inquiry about Hydro Power Pak from U.S. Department of
Defense
Posted Oct 16th 2006 3:57PM by Sam Abuelsamid
Filed under: Hydrogen

HyPower fuel was formed in 1996 to develop new methods of hydrogen
production and delivery for vehicles. Over the last ten years they have
worked on improving the efficiency of the electrolysis process for
producing hydrogen. Electrolysis has long been the easiest method of
producing hydrogen from water. However, it takes a substantial amount
of energy to do the electrolysis. HyPower has now developed a system
they call the Hydro Power Pak. This is intended as a transitional
technology to help reduce both fuel consumption and emissions.

The system is designed to be retro-fitted to tractor-trailers and
generators. They use a water tank with an on-board electrolysis system
to produce hydrogen and oxygen on the fly. The hydrogen is then
injected into the fuel stream of the engine to supplement the diesel or
gasoline fuel. The hydrogen injection should definitely be effective on
the engine side. They claim 10-25% improvement in fuel efficiency
which, depending on how much hydrogen they inject, may be plausible.
HyPower is not saying much about the electrolysis system and the test
report links on their site don't seem to work. Presuming that they are
taking power for the engine to power the electrolysis system, it seems
unlikely that there is actually a net improvement in fuel efficiency
and in fact a reduction is more likely.

HyPower have announced that the US Defense Department has expressed
interest in the Hydro Power Pak system. They want to investigate the
possible purchase and installation of the system on the US Army vehicle
fleet. More than likely the Army will find that the HyPower system will
be about as effective as cold fusion and all the perpetual motion
machines.

[Source: HyPower Fuels]
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HDTV Listings for October 21, 2006
Sharp Aquos 1080p D62 LCDs now shipping
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OCT/22/06
-Hydrogen technology - is it as lucrative as we think?
-GM Canada partnership key as Chevrolet prepares to launch the world's

largest fuel cell vehicle fleet

-It will take a while for hydrogen payoff

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/21/06
-Fuel cell 'could slash bills'
-L International Reveals Plans for High-Tech Next-Generation Fuel Cell
Laptop Computer Systems(FuelCellWorks)
-A Hunterdon home goes hydrogen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/20/06
-TTU works to power soldiers on the battlefield with million dollar
grant-Fuel cells promise competitive edge on the
battlefield(FuelCellWorks)
-Building Solar, Hydrogen Power in Your Garage
-Hydrogen Association Hosts First Ever Renewable Hydrogen
Event(FuelCellWorks)
-HyPower Applies for Membership in the National Hydrogen
Association(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen fuel cell sales about to take off-Industry insiders predict
significant sales of hydrogen fuel cells for powering lift trucks by
2008
-Penn State highlights hydrogen energy, fuel cell research &
technologies(FuelCellWorks)
-TTU's Gao focuses on fuel cell applications for e-ships
-UAF is analyzing data from fuel cell being tested in Seward Alaska

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/19/06
-Multi-fuel fuel cell prototype coming next year
-JR East shows trial run of world's 1st hybrid train to media
-LIFE-Environment 2006: Commission funds for fuel cell
projects(FuelCellWorks)
-Saint-Gobain announces its intent to develop and commercialize Solid
Oxide Fuel Cell Technology and a new
strategic partnership with FZ Jülich(FuelCellWorks)
-Plug Power Announces Follow-On Purchase Order for 120 GenCore(R) Fuel
Cell Systems from IST in South Africa(FuelCellWorks)
-Jadoo Wins Comstock's ''Vanguard Award'' for Innovators of Fuel
Independence(FuelCellWorks)
-CSIRO Australia: Cluster launched to seek solutions to elusive
Hydrogen Economy(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/18/06
-Research team formed to examine hydrogen use
-MCEL: CFO Comments on Initial Phase of New Hydrogen Storage Cartridge
-Fuel cell + geothermal = savings?
-Running Test of a Fuelcell Railway Vehicle
-Millennium Cell Receives $4.0 Million Delivery Order from the U.S. Air
Force(FuelCellWorks)
-ITM Power Announces Fuel Cell and Electrolyser Updates(FuelCellWorks)
-ITM Power in early-stage talks to market low-cost electrolyser, fuel
cell
-Boost to Australia's hydrogen economy
-Politicians, researchers and industry to debate hydrogen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/17/06
-EngenuitySC Announces Fuel Cell Project Awards at Third Annual
Conference(FuelCellWorks)
-Hybrid Fuel Cell Bus Rolling Into Town
-GM 'will hit fuel-cell target' -Larry Burns
-Ford and BP Open Hydrogen Station in Taylor Michigan(FuelCellWorks)
-Medis Technologies Enters Memorandum of Understanding With Major
Russian Groups(FuelCellWorks)
-Biofuel cells without the bio cells(FuelCellWorks)
-HydroGen Corporation Signs Agreement with ASHTA Chemicals Inc. to
Install and Operate Fuel Cell Demonstration
and Test Facility(FuelCellWorks)
-Filing of Design Rights for Agni's 2nd Generation Hydrogen Powered
Car(FuelCellWorks)
-Printing Fuel Cells-A new printing process could cheaply make complex
fuel-cell reformers, and other microscale devices
-Alkaline fuel cells developer AFC Energy announces breakthrough in
500hr trial of electrode
-Plug Power Signs Strategic Partner Agreement With NIC NEP for
Collaboration in Russian Market(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/16/06
-Fuel Cell Technologies Ltd. announces employee layoffs and board
resignations(FuelCellWorks)
-UTC Power To Participate In 3 Million Dollar Fuel Cell Transit Bus
Projects in California and Washington D.C.(FuelCellWorks)
-ACHM: In Development to Cr.eate Hydrogen Fuel for on Demand Power
-State grant to University of Albany nanocollege to fund 'energy test
farm' for fuel cells
-New hydrogen fuel station to use Air Products equipment
-Hard Cell-UTC Power president Jan Van Dokkum seems so upbeat about the
future of the hydrogen economy
-Nuvera Fuel Cells Awarded Federal Grant for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus
Demonstration at Logan International Airport(FuelCellWorks)
-Proton to Install Hydrogen Fueling System in New York City Metro
Area(FuelCellWorks)
-Voller Energy on target to deliver 1kW commercial fuel cells by end of
2007
-Toyota to Display Latest Electric, Gasoline/diesel-electric Hybrid and
Fuel Cell Vehicles at EVS-22(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/15/06
-China Develops First Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car
-Asia Zirconium May Seek New Funds for Solid Oxide Fuel Cell Expansion
-High-Tech Sequel Loses Plot
-Fuel, glorious fuel: the race is on to replace oil with hydrogen cell
-Reno Nevada-RTC Introduces Hydrogen Fuel Vehicles
-Military Applications of Fuel Cell Technologies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/14/06
-Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority(Metro) wins federal
grants to create hydrogen fuel cell buses(FuelCellWorks)
-The Capabilities Guide 2006: Canada's Hydrogen & Fuel Cell
Industry(FuelCellWorks)
-Will Hydrogen Powered Cars Move?
-MTI to Speak at Fourth Annual Energy Technology
Conference(FuelCellWorks)
-Direct Methanol Fuel Cells Emerging As A Winner In Many Portable
Applications(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/13/06
-Test Drive: Mercedes-Benz Fuel-Cell Car-Fuel-cell powertrain serves
Mercedes' A-Class body well
-Fontana firm uses fuel cells, microturbines for 60 percent of its
energy
-Greenpower Final To Feature Fuel Cell(FuelCellWorks)
-FuelCell Energy Named One of Connecticut's Fastest Growing Technology
Companies in
Deloitte's Technology Fast 50 Program(FuelCellWorks)
-Governor taps Director of Kettering Fuel Cell Center for commission
-Hybrid hydrogen bus plan wins $5.6 million
-Index fund move roils fuel-cell maker's shares
-Enova Trading Update
-Cruisin' the hydrogen highway- Full Test: 2005 Honda FCX

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/12/06
-Kuchera Defense Systems receives grant to be used to develop a fuel
cell pilot manufacturing facility
-U.S. Transit Official Announces $49 Million in Federal Grants for
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Research(FuelCellWorks)
-FTA Provides Funding for Advanced Fuel Cell Bus Projects to
CALSTART(FuelCellWorks)
-GE Announces Major Milestone in Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC)
Technology Development as Part of
U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) Fuel Cell Program(FuelCellWorks)
-IUPUI, U.S. Army Partner on Fuel Cell Technology(FuelCellWorks)
-One of South Africa's Leading Wireless Providers to Deploy Plug Power
Backup Fuel Cell Systems(FuelCellWorks)
-China develops its first hydrogen-fuelled car
-Power Air Corp to Present at the London Stock Exchange's 'New Energy
Capital Markets Day'(FuelCellWorks)
-Europe's 2020 hydrogen car plans
-Parker's TekStak(TM) Educational Kits Offer Students a Hands-On
Introduction to Fuel Cell Technology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/11/06
-Fuel cell factory in Copenhagen
-Federal Transit Administrator James Simpson to announce major new
federal support for hydrogen fuel cell bus research
-Fiscal 2007 Defense Appropriations Act Includes $1.35 Million for the
Ongoing Development of
Porous Silicon-Based Methanol Fuel Cells(FuelCellWorks)
-U.S. Missile Defense Agency Awards $1.25 Million Contract to Proton
Energy Systems for
Regenerative Fuel Cell Research(FuelCellWorks)
-Hyun Won of Korea Enters Into Manufacturing Agreement With VIASPACE
Subsidiary
Direct Methanol Fuel Cell Corporation(FuelCellWorks)
-Ballard Power Systems Up on $22M Fuel Cell Order
-Topsoe Fuel Cell is awarded the American Chamber of Commerce in
Denmark's Entrepreneurship Award(FuelCellWorks)
-HydroGen Corporation Receives $250,000 Grant from the Pennsylvania
Energy Development Authority
to Support 2MW Fuel Cell Power Plant Project(FuelCellWorks)
-Mazda Delivers RX-8 Hydrogen RE to Yamaguchi Government(FuelCellWorks)

-Researchers demonstrate alternative fuel cell system(FuelCellWorks)
-A long road to hydrogen future
-CMR Fuel Cells names Stephen Barlow chief commercial officer
-Cenex UK's national centre of excellence for low carbon and fuel cell
technologies
sponsors Greenpower Formula 24 National Championship(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/10/06
-Ballard Announces Follow-On Supply Agreement With General Hydrogen
Corporation(FuelCellWorks)
-Secretary of Energy and Rep. Chabot Highlight Clean Coal and Hydrogen
Research and Tout
America's Economic Growth in Ohio(FuelCellWorks)
-Medis Technologies Chairman Provides Updates of Sales and Production
Programs for Medis 24/7 Power Pack(FuelCellWorks)
-Rochester Institute of Technology gets fuel-cell research funds
-Ceramic Fuels Cells Holds Open Briefing with CEO on Latest Fuel Cell
Advances(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Opportunities for Scotland(FuelCellWorks)
-Jadoo Teams with Network Environmental Systems to Introduce Fuel Cells
for Law Enforcement(FuelCellWorks)
-ETI Tech & Germany's P21 In Fuel Cell Technology Partnership
-FuelCell Energy Helps Sierra Nevada Harness 'Beer Power' to Reduce its
Energy Costs
by 25 to 40 Percent(FuelCellWorks)
-American Security Resources Hydra Unit Proposes 20 Fuel Cell
Installations for Columbia,
SC Fuel Cell Challenge(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen-Fueled Buses On The Way
-Fuel cell challenge awards next week
-Fuel cell generator coming to school district
-New company to make membrane electrodes for fuel cells starts up

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/09/06
-The Linde Group officially inaugurates the "Linde Hydrogen Center" in
Lohhof near Munich(FuelCellWorks)
-Veloform presents the new CityCruiser II e-bike with EFOY fuel
cells(FuelCellWorks)
-VIASPACE Subsidiary Files Patent Application on Cartridge Connection
Valve for Micro Fuel Cell(FuelCellWorks)
-From Hydrogen to Natural Gas, Southland Fleet Operators Will Learn
About Alternative Fuel Options
at the Southern California Clean Vehicle Technology
Expo(FuelCellWorks)
-New Mexico-State emergency management uses hydrogen fuel cells for
backup
-Congresswoman Wilson: Hydrogen Holds Great Promise for Energy
Independence(FuelCellWorks)
-H2 Logic Truck presented for the European Commissioner for Science &
Research(FuelCellWorks)
-UC Berkeley-No Cost to See Fuel Cell Bus at Lawrence Hall of Science
(LHS)(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/08/06
-Hydrogen: The clear alternative
-Assessing GM's Fuel Cell Strategy
-Fuel cell technology for vehicles getting standardized?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/07/06
-Fuel Cells Field Trial Update: EWE
-Fuel Cells: Perfect Mobile Energy?
-Ambulances go green with hydrogen systems

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/06/06
-Funding Secured For Fuel Cell Project At UTC
-Fed marks $1.35M for RIT fuel cell research
-Neah Power Granted US Patent for Fuel Cell Cartridge for Closed Liquid
Feed Fuel Cell Systems(FuelCellWorks)
-Toshiba Fuel Cell-Powered Devices on Display
-Data center fuel cells promise seven-nines uptime(FuelCellWorks)
-Household waste "could power London buses"
-Hydrogen is Bus Fuel of the Future

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/05/06
-Battery Maker ETI forges Alliance with Germany's Fuel Cell Maker P21
-Hydrogen Engine Center, Inc. Announces $6 Million of Equity
Financing(FuelCellWorks)
-Franklin Fuel Cells Names William "Bill" Barker To Head New-Business
Development(FuelCellWorks)
-Ansaldo Fuel Cell Offers Big Energy Savings for Military
Installations(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen Economy moves up a gear with 5 billion Euro industrial
investment(FuelCellWorks)
-Official Signing of Memorandum of Understanding on Purchasing Hydrogen
Powered Buses(FuelCellWorks)
-Medis Technologies Presents Programs for More Powerful Fuel Cells for
Laptops and Office and Home Use(FuelCellWorks)
-GE Global Research's Hydrogen Electrolyzer Receives Popular
Mechanics 2006 Breakthrough Award(FuelCellWorks)
-FuelCell Energy Appoints Lisa Lettieri Vice President of Investor
Relations and Corporate Communications(FuelCellWorks)
-Could hydrogen lead to a third industrial revolution?
-A Charging Alternative? INI Power Systems' Novel Power Cell Could
Revolutionize Battery Industry
-University developing new fuel cell bus

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/04/06
-Dynetek announces change in senior management(FuelCellWorks)
-Korean Fuel Cell Cartridge Manufacturer Extends Agreement With Direct
Methanol Fuel Cell Corporation(FuelCellWorks)
-Hyundai Fuel Cell Vehicle Allows Public to Test Drive the Future
During CaFCP Road Rally 2006(FuelCellWorks)
-Air Products' Mobile Hydrogen Fueler Powering California Road Rally
Participants(FuelCellWorks)
-Houston Technology Center Awards $975,000 to Carbon Nanotube
Acceleration Project (CNAP)
for Fuel Cell Research (FuelCellWorks)
-ISSYS to Present Fuel Cell Sensor Poster at the "SME's Tomorrow's
Energy-Today 2006" Conference(FuelCellWorks)
-MEPs call for EU leadership on hydrogen vision(FuelCellWorks)
-Governor Pataki Announces $21 Million Demonstration Project To Fuel
Hydrogen Vehicles(FuelCellWorks)
-City looks into alternative energy source for school-The new school
could have a 200-kilowatt
fuel cell as the source of its electricity
-Area to get hydrogen generating stations-State plans to spend $21
million on project to make
hydrogen for buses, state vehicles
-Rus Avtovaz Company developing hydrogen-fuelled automobile
-FuelCell Energy Expands California Market with Sale of Ultra-Clean
Power Plant to Resort(FuelCellWorks)
-NTT DoCoMo Unveils Fuel Cell Prototype at Ceatec
-Ballard opening market for fuel cell-The company is just two years
away from meeting all technical
requirements to see its fuel-cell system in widespread household use
-Boost investment in fuel cell technology-Canada

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/03/06
-Nokia coy on fuel cell cellphone power
-Los Alamos Labs Develops New Class of Hydrogen Fuel-Cell
Catalysts(FuelCellWorks)
-Congress approves $2.6 million for Lamar University fuel cell
research(FuelCellWorks)
-Power Air Secures Fuel Cell Production Capacity(FuelCellWorks)
-Startech Environmental Hydrogen System Added to 200 Ton-Per-Day Plasma
Converter Facility in Panama(FuelCellWorks)
-ReliOn Fuel Cells Achieve CE Approval(FuelCellWorks)
-Ballard Receives Follow-On US$5.85 Million Equity Contribution From
EBARA Corporation(FuelCellWorks)
-Fuel cell powered phones years away-Nokia
-White Plains opts for hydrogen refueling station

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/02/06
-Hydrogen vehicles-"Guzzler III" and "Sax I" on track(FuelCellWorks)
-Students Explore The Potential Of Fuel Cells To Power Efficient,
Pollution-Free Cities(FuelCellWorks)
-MTI MicroFuel Cells Demonstrates Mobion(R) Units for Key
Customer(FuelCellWorks)
-Millennium Cell Program to Receive $2.5 Million in 2007 Defense
Bill(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen-Bombing Down the Track-PopSci goes pedal-to-the-carbon-fiber
in Honda's next-gen prototype fuel cell car
after a rare one-on-one interview with Honda's president and CEO
Takeo Fukui
-Toyota eyes stronger partnership with GM on eco-friendly cars: sources

-Ceres Power Holdings-Regulatory Announcement(FuelCellWorks)
-Ceramic Fuel Cells European Investor Update(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydra CEO Jim Twedt Named Chairman- Joins ARSC Board(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCT/01/06
-Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Trials To Continue in Australia(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Safety Report-September 2006
-The California Hydrogen Highway Summer Update Newsletter is now
available

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/30/06
-German Developers Working on Record-breaking Fuel Cell Aircraft
-Interview with Bob Lutz from General Motors Corporation and
carlist.com(FuelCellWorks)
-MTI stock soars-Heavy trading in issue follows speculation about a
major military fuel cell deal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/29/06
-Lt. Governor Bruce Johnson Views Fuel Cell Project That Received State
Grants(FuelCellWorks)
-Lt. Governor Visits Wal-Mart Distribution Center Using Cellex Fuel
Cells(FuelCellWorks)
-Industry Outlines Steps for a European Hydrogen
Infrastructure(FuelCellWorks)
-European Hydrogen Association (EHA) Creates New Taskforce- "Hydrogen
in the City"
-The Next Step: Conversion to the Solar Hydrogen Economy
-Hydrogen could replace oil
-Millennium Cell Inc. Files SEC form 8-K, Entry into a Material
Definitive Agreement

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/28/06
-Solid-Oxide Fuel Cells Undergo Successful Test
-LTU students to show off hydrogen-run vehicles
-Chemistry: Hydrogen at the flick of a switch
-Antig and Partners AVC, Nan Ya PCB, Syspotek To Demonstrate Fuel Cell
BEGINI
Reference Design at 2006 IDF Fall(FuelCellWorks)
-CEK 1 bil for the gas and hydrogen drive of cars
-HyPower Receives Purchase Order from Skyways for 250 HPP Units for
John Deere Diesel Engines(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen Power International, Inc. and Subsidiary Hydrogen Power, Inc.
Merge Into Single Company(FuelCellWorks)
-Energy Conversion Devices' Board Approves Stock-Incentive Plan; Names
2 New Directors
-Morphic Technologies AB posts Q1 operating loss of SEK10.60m

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/27/06
-Dr Brian Holcroft Appointed Chief Executive Officer of Hydrogen Solar
Ltd.(FuelCellWorks)
-Gas-free bus stops by Naperville
-DOE Announces Hydrogen Funding Opportunity for Small
Businesses(FuelCellWorks)
-Two hydrogen plants proposed for White Plains New York area
-Postal Service Expands Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle Testing to West
Coast; East Coast
Testing Extended Another Year(FuelCellWorks)
-Protonex Accelerates Plan to Introduce Reformer-Based
Products(FuelCellWorks)
-Toyota Less Optimistic Than Rivals on Fuel-Cell Auto Outlook
-GM Extends Agreement with U.S. Postal Service to Test Fuel Cell
Vehicles for Mail Delivery(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen Technology to raise $1m through rights issue
-Ceres Power director Fitzgibbons lifts holding

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/26/06
-Suzuki Motor Develops Methanol Powered Fuel-Cell Wheelchair
-New desulfurization catalyst extends life of fuel cell
-Washington State U. researchers work on hydrogen energy
-Fuel Cells Expected To Cut School's Costs
-ThyssenKrupp to deliver two fuel cell submarines to German Navy
-TÜBITAK organizes hydrogen powered auto race
-Eden Energy Subsidiary Wins Backing For Hydrogen Auto
Fuel(FuelCellWorks)
-Energy Conversion Devices Announces the Appointment of Two New Members
to Its Board of Directors(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/25/06
-Fuel Cell Maker Ceres Power Secures New Product
Facilities(FuelCellWorks)
-Honda Demonstrates the FCX Concept Vehicle(FuelCellWorks)
-Millennium Cell to Demonstrate New Hydrogen Fuel Option for Jadoo
Power Fuel Cells(FuelCellWorks)
-Focus Will Be On UltraCell at Embedded Systems Conference in
Boston(FuelCellWorks)
-UTAS engineers' feat a boost for research
-Bus To The Future-Methanol Fuel Cell/Battery Hybrid
-Ceres Power FY losses widen as group ramps up production
-PolyFuel says 2006 shipments more than double 2005's, on par with H2
2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/24/06
-GM developing home hydrogen refueling device
-Honda Showcases Latest Fuel Cell Vehicle
-AC Transit touts success of hydrogen fuel cell buses
-On 'Hydrogen Highway'
-Conductive polymers for fuel cells

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/23/06
-SHEC Thanks Team Member For Past And Continued Support(FuelCellWorks)
-Who's killing the fuel cell?
-Korea Goes From Pony to Fuel-Cell Cars

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/22/06
-It keeps going and going-New fuel cell could help relieve soldiers'
heavy loads
-Fuel cell startup company wins politicians' praise
-QuestAir Named One of Canada's Fastest Growing Technology Companies in
2006(FuelCellWorks)
-Power Air Corp Update to Shareholders(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/21/06
-U.S. Army Takes Delivery of GM's Latest Fuel Cell Vehicle; Army First
Chevrolet Equinox
Fuel Cell Vehicle Customer(FuelCellWorks)
-Bigger is not necessarily better - in hydrogen
storage(FuelCellWorks)
-MTI Micro's Mobion(R) New Charger Prototype Exceeds Li-Ion
Battery(FuelCellWorks)
-Topsoe Fuel Cell and Wärtsilä Corporation are selected for a EUR 4.8
million grant from the EU LIFE
Environment pro-gramme to develop Solid Oxide Fuel
Cells(FuelCellWorks)
-Ceramic Fuel Cells develops more powerful fuel cell
-Pacific Fuel Cell Corp. to Appear on Alexander Haig's World Business
Review TV Series,
September 24, 2006 on CNBC (As Paid Programming)(FuelCellWorks)
-Acta sees profit by 2010 on back of fuel cell product rollout - COO
-HyPower Announces Results of the Hydro Power Pak(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/20/06
-News Conference: U.S. Army to take delivery of GM's latest fuel cell
vehicle(FuelCellWorks)
-New agreement lets MTI Micro sublicense fueling technology to third
parties
-Russia To Lead In Hydrogen Economy
-SHEC Appoints Neil Mohammed of BMO Capital Markets to Its Board of
Directors(FuelCellWorks)
-Millennium Cell Awarded U.S. Navy Phase I SBIR Contract(FuelCellWorks)

-Forget gas! Fill your tanks with water, Weizmann researcher says
-Fuel Cell Today Market Survey: Light Duty Vehicles (Japanese version)
-ARSC Signs LOI to Acquire Breakthrough Wind Turbine
Company(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/19/06
-MTI Micro Expands Agreement on Distribution of Fuel
Cartridges(FuelCellWorks)
-India's first hydrogen-dispensing gas station will open in Delhi
-HyPower Fuel Inc. Provides Management Discussion(FuelCellWorks)
-QuantumSphere Accelerates Hydrogen Economy - Files Key Patent on
Catalyst Device for Low-Cost,
High Efficiency Hydrogen Production - Breakthrough in Hydrogen
Generation on Demand(FuelCellWorks)
-Ceramic microreactors developed for on-site hydrogen
production(FuelCellWorks)
-Marine Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Association Founded(FuelCellWorks)
-Sharp's Kameyama Plant-The World's Largest Photovoltaic Power
System and One of
Japan's Largest Fuel-Cell and Cogeneration Systems
Installed(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/18/06
-Chevrolet To Launch World's Largest Fuel Cell Vehicle
Fleet(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen UAV to test high-altitude platform technology
-Australia fuel cells set to soar?
-Porous solid electrolyte removes nitrogen oxides and particulate
matter
-Driving GM's New Hydrogen Car
-Millennium Cell and Gecko Energy Technologies to Demonstrate Fuel Cell
Powered Wireless
Camera at Homeland Defense Conference(FuelCellWorks)
-Optimising plastic membranes for fuel cells
-GM's hydrogen fuel-cell fleet to arrive next year; mass production
possible by 2011
-Looking to use hydrogen as fuel
-Engineers' magnesium solution to hydrogen storage debacle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/17/06
-General Motors To Launch 100 Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell Vehicles Built in
Oshawa Canada in 2007(FuelCellWorks)
-Data Centers Eye 'Green' Power-Users exploring energy alternatives
such as fuel cells and flywheels

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/16/06
-DOE Funds Six New Projects Aimed at Alternate Hydrogen Production and
Utilization(FuelCellWorks)
-GM Looks to Celebrities As It Readies a Major Fuel-Cell Announcement
-Renewable Synthetic Fuel (RSFuel) has Acquired Advanced Algae
Technologies for
the Production of Hydrogen(FuelCellWorks)
-The hydrogen powered fork lift
-Ener1 Inc. Reports Significant Strides in Commercializing Its Li-Ion
Batteries for Hybrid Vehicles
and Fuel Cells(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/15/06
-The Ohio Department of Development Releases Request For Proposals For
Third Frontier
Grants Fuel Cell Program (TFFCP)(FuelCellWorks)
-Cal State L.A.'s fuel-cell plane passes key flight
test(FuelCellWorks)
-Backing up fuel cells
-Proton Motor delivers Fuel Cell Hybrid Bus to the City of
Barth(FuelCellWorks)
-Revolve Brighton-to-London fuel cell and eco car rally
postponed(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/14/06
-GM vice chairman wants mass produced hydrogen cars by 2011
-Ohio Fuel Cell Coalition Welcomes New Board Members and
Chairman(FuelCellWorks)
-Postdoc proposes hydrogen-powered car
-SunLine Purchases Eco-Friendly Buses
-Power Air Corporation Appoints Back-Up Power Product
Manager(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen research takes flight at Tech
-Frost & Sullivan Recognizes INI Power Systems for Its Innovative and
Highly Efficient Direct Methanol Fuel
Cells Technology(FuelCellWorks)
-ECD looking for $100 mln hydrogen investment
-Japan, U.S. to Join Hands on Fuel Cell Tech
-New battery tech still years away

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/13/06
-Toyota Fine-N Hydrogen Goes Green For Auto Africa
-Hydrogen fuel cell demonstration project announced for Lambton County
-India-Auto majors team up for Hydrogen-run ride
-Virginia Tech Researchers Create Foam-Like Membrane for Separating
Salt from Water(FuelCellWorks)
-Sumitomo Corporation and Acta extend relationship(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus of the Future Debuts In Winnipeg
-Better Fuel Cells for Laptops
-East Rochester school getting new fuel cell power source
-Emission Credit Donation by FuelCell Energy Kicks off 'Cleaner and
Greener' World Energy Engineering Congress(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/12/06
-Join the California Fuel Cell Partnership for the 5th annual Road
Rally(FuelCellWorks)
-Using Microbes to Fuel the U.S. Hydrogen Economy(FuelCellWorks)
-Tiny fuel cell might replace batteries in laptop computers, portable
electronics
-Lt. Governor Bruce Johnson Applauds NexTech/Plug Power Development
Annoucement- Third Frontier Fuel Cell
Initiative Grant Supports Partnership(FuelCellWorks)
-NRC Opens Cutting Edge Fuel Cell Research Facility(FuelCellWorks)
-NexTech and Plug Power to Collaborate on Solid Oxide Fuel Cell(SOFC)
Power Systems(FuelCellWorks)
-EnBW and Siemens plan first ever megawatt-class fuel-cell power plant
with sights set
on up to 70 percent efficiency(FuelCellWorks)
-Jadoo Power Introduces XRT 100 Watt Fuel Cell System for Emergency
Responders(FuelCellWorks)
-Tokyo Gas, JFE Contanier and Kanto to Develop Fuel Cell Powered
Industrial Carts
-Europe to test seagoing fuel cell plant
-BMW Introduces World's First Hydrogen-Drive Luxury Perfromance Car for
Everyday Use-The BMW Hydrogen 7(FuelCellWorks)
-BMW Hydrogen 7 - Introducing a New Era of Mobility(FuelCellWorks)
-Plug to collaborate on market research, R&D on solid oxide fuel cells

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/11/06
-Ammonia Borane- Putting the fuel in fuel cells(FuelCellWorks)
-GM Reinvents The Automobile: Chevrolet Sequel Is A Better, Cleaner,
Petroleum-Free Solution(FuelCellWorks)
-New World Trade Center Will Use Fuel Cell Power Plants(FuelCellWorks)
-NTT DoCoMo to Tie Up with Fuel Cell Company Aquafairy(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen to make Lolland environmental model
-New catalyst using hydrogen removes harmful perchlorate from
groundwater(FuelCellWorks)
-Dutton Associates Announces Investment Opinion: Hydrogen Power
International Neutral Rating(FuelCellWorks)
-Students explore the potential of fuel cells
-ARB Branch Chief to Serve as Acting Executive Director for Fuel Cell
Collaborative(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/10/06
-Chemical Screening System Helps Evaluate Materials for PEM Fuel
Cells(FuelCellWorks)
-Latest fuel cell material advance overcomes low humidity conductivity
problem(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/09/06
-BMW and TOTAL Partner to Build First Public Hydrogen Station in
Munich(FuelCellWorks)
-SC hopes to be at forefront of hydrogen economy
-S.C. must take lead in developing hydrogen technology
-Gas-powered BMW 7-Series-BMW's hydrogen-powered 7-Series is caught
testing in Germany
-FuelCell Energy Reports Third Quarter 2006 Results and Accomplishments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/08/06
-PSA Peugeot Citroën to Present Fuel-Cell 207 EPURE Concep at Paris
Show(FuelCellWorks)
-Eaton and Altergy Work to Provide Fuel Cell Power Solutions to
Telecommunications and Other Industries(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrexia Receives Investment To Commercialize Hydrogen Storage
Technology(FuelCellWorks)
-Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technical Advisory Committee (HTAC); Notice of
Open Meeting
-American Elements Announces Online Publication Of Its Fuel Cell Raw
Materials List(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/07/06
-Isakson, Chambliss Announce $1.6 Million for Fuel-Cell Technology
Development
-General Hydrogen Sells Leading Forklift OEM Nissan A Hydricity ®Pack
for Japan Show(FuelCellWorks)
-FuelCell Energy Shares Fall, Company Reports Wider Fiscal 3rd-Quarter
Loss
-Kettering fuel cell hopes dashed
-Quantum's Hydrogen Vehicles Featured at Statoil Opening of Norway's
First Hydrogen Station(FuelCellWorks)
-Fuel Cell Developer Ceres Power Secures Regional Support to Help Drive
Mufacturing Scale-Up(FuelCellWorks)
-Leading Fuel Cell Expert Joins Acta(FuelCellWorks)
-Molecular framework sucks up hydrogen
-Juiced About Medis Technologies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/06/06
-Ballard Introduces Next Generation Air-Cooled Fuel Cell
Stack(FuelCellWorks)
-Enzymes may hold answer to harnessing hydrogen power
-Taking a DaimlerChrysler Fuel Cell Vehicle to the Drag
Strip(FuelCellWorks)
-US energy director's Indian summer signals bright fuel cell future
-Skoda's Car of the Future Vision Incorporates Fuel Cell Systems
-Medis Technologies Announces Start of Underwriter Laboratory Listing
Process for Its
Fuel Cell 24/7 Power Packs(FuelCellWorks)
-Islands plan for more green power-The latest stage of a new £2.5m
eco-friendly hydrogen energy project in the Western Isles has been
unveiled.
-IQ Micro Announces Important Microfluidic Technology
Breakthrough(FuelCellWorks)
-Power Air Targets Asian Market Through Joint Venture with H-Plus
Group(FuelCellWorks)
-Hasan of Altenews Calls for Peace Between Ethanol, Hydrogen and Hybrid
Supporters(FuelCellWorks)
-ISSYS Methanol Concentration Sensor to Be Featured at the JAIMA
Exposition(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/05/06
-St. Andrews team hatch super hydrogen generation system
-Hydrogenics Announces Leadership Changes(FuelCellWorks)
-GasTec, US firm team up in hydrogen supply venture
-Nissan to make more affordable fuel cell vehicles
-Middle-sized holes best for storing hydrogen
-IdaTech´s ElectraGen(TM) Family of Critical Backup Power Systems
Achieves NEBS Level 3 Certification(FuelCellWorks)
-Angstrom Power Closes $18 Million Round of Financing(FuelCellWorks)
-SatCon Wins Navy Contract for a Modular High Density Isolated DC/DC
Converter for Fuel Cell Power(FuelCellWorks)
-Fuel cells 'are key to economic progress'
-Voller Energy FY pretax loss widens to 1.7 mln stg; sees development
costs up
-American Security Resources Commences Commercial Production of
HydraStax(TM) Fuel Cells;
Sales Expected to Accelerate During Fourth Quarter(FuelCellWorks)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/04/06
-siGEN: School runs 1st Hydrogen Fuel Cell Powered Eco-Marathon
Vehicle(FuelCellWorks)
-Topsoe Fuel Cell and Wärtsilä Corporation demonstrate operating
results in line with SECA phase 1 requirements
with a 4 kW Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC) unit(FuelCellWorks)
-Oxford Catalysts Group PLC Receives Carbon Trust Grant
Award(FuelCellWorks)
-Cooking up a transport solution-"..fuel is reacted with steam to
release hydrogen from both."
-Hydrogen purifiers and reformers eye opportunities in fuel cells

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/03/06
-T-Com Fuel Cell Powered Phone Booth Achieves Record(FuelCellWorks)
-Area man cited for invention of hydrogen sensor
-Cell Job

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/02/06
-ECG Fuel Cell system at the 3M head office in Neuss(FuelCellWorks)
-Fuel Cell Developer Ceres Power Appoints Finance
Director(FuelCellWorks)
-Public Welcome at Hydrogen Technical Advisory Committee
Meeting(FuelCellWorks)
-Announcing the Formation of The Fuel Cell Vehicle Alliance of
Australia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEPT/01/06
-German EBZ Announces Successful Start of High Temperature Fuel Cell
Components(FuelCellWorks)
-NTT DoCoMo Speaks on Requirements of Fuel Cell for Mobile Devices
-Intelligent Energy announces the appointment of Henri Winand as new
company Chief Executive(FuelCellWorks)
-The Dawn of the New Hydrogen Economy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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G.fried

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 3:45:44 PM10/22/06

to su...@fgm.at

Trygve Lillefosse schrieb:

> On 22 Oct 2006 10:48:47 -0700, "Tater" <tate...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> lkgeo1 wrote:
>>> GM Canada partnership key as Chevrolet prepares to launch the world's
>>> largest fuel cell vehicle fleet
>> Anyone know a way of making money on fuelcells when everyone realizes
>> that they just wont work?
>
> Please share you insight. Why is it impossimble to use a fuel-cell?
> Will it not deliver electricity? Will it explode? Is there some
> serious design flaws?
>
> Please tell, pretty please
>

would be nice to answer some driveability issues:

1 what is the max. load change (+/- kW/s) in the allowed temp. and
humidity range
2 what is the operation range in terms of allowed temp. and humidity
3 what is the starting range in terms of allowed temp. and humidity
4 what is the endurance in still stand at 1000 W/m² and 60°C (in hours
vent off)
5 what is the MTBF in the allowed temp. and humidity range in operation
6 what its the MTTR

enough questions?

;-)

G.fried

lkgeo1

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 4:15:55 PM10/22/06

to

what are your answers?

G.fried

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 4:30:04 PM10/22/06

to

lkgeo1 schrieb:

> IS IT TOO LATE TO TELL ALL THESE STUPID PEOPLE THEY ARE WASTING THEIR
> TIME TOO?:

stay calm

FC is perfect for:

- hybrid electric with mild climates
- submarines
- defense sector without cost restraints
- cheap electricity for electrolysis

for the rest lets wait 10^n years. n is to define.

G.fried

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 4:32:56 PM10/22/06

to

some crossposting to get more answers. thanx

G.fried

G.fried schrieb:

Tater

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 5:03:43 PM10/22/06

to

lkgeo1 wrote:
> yes yes , please tell the board why fuel cells wont work. by the way,
> you can start by explaining your expertese on this matter, before you
> hit the kill file for eternity.

hey feel free to killfile me, as the only intrest you seem to have is
to post biased news releases. makes one think that maybe you are trying
to drive up stock prices on fuel cell technologies.

since lkgeo1 wont bother to read this message, maybe someone can point
to him that no one has been able to beat newton at his game.

ok, that sounded too crypitic

lets try this. fuel cells are nothing more than a conversion device, no
more awe inspiring than a battery, and have been used for decades.

problem is, most people think they are going to replace gasoline. no
deal. you are taking fuel, converting into hydrogen, then running it
thru a fuel cell to make electricity to run an electric motor. the
efficencies of such a system are soo poor that you'd be better off
taking the fuel and using it to drive the shaft the electric motor
would be coupled to.

look at the two power train chains

fuel - hydrogen - fuelcell - electric motor - shaft
fuel - internal combustion engine - shaft

since each link in the chain will have losses, the best way to get more
efficiency is to eliminate the links.

lkgeo1

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 5:20:43 PM10/22/06

to

plunk............

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 6:15:23 PM10/22/06

to

On 22 Oct 2006 "lkgeo1" <lkg...@aol.com> wrote:

>plunk............

You should sign your plunks.

There are Usenet guidelines on how many posts
that should be made which are, and in many of your
posts plainly marked, advertisements.

This 100 car fleet stuff has been going on for
too long, an ad offering something for sell would
be much more welcome than all this corporate
image enhancement garbage.

Is there some reason that hydrogen isn't
being sold as a fuel for an ICE? It would
burn just as clean, and would allow using the
old junkers many people are forced to drive
because they can't afford to pay more than
$800 for a car.

Green may be on topic in this group,
but it would be nice to read about something
the public can buy, or even wish they could
buy if they had the money.

Because of the political voicing, green
is starting to get scary, something like brown
shirts in the 1930s.
When people champion a cause just for
the sake of the cause, it becomes a boring and
unwelcome presentation.

Flammable liquids and gases are bad
enough to handle and be near homes and in
vehicles, and high pressure storage of flammable
gases is doubly dangerous.

The questions about fuel cells are valid,
but the first question should be, how much
do they cost.
Government grants and partnerships
promising energy solutions have been going
on since at least 1974, and nothing, NOTHING
has come of it, except standards established
supposedly to protect the public from buying
poor quality or unworkable hardware.

All these types of programs are designed
to perpetuate the dominance on the status quo
of energy companies, and the low cost, much
more effective devices and systems are left in
the dust.

Hydrogen is clean burning, other than
that it has no desirable qualities, it can never
be low cost, and the tanks have to be much
larger to hold the same amount of energy.

Why is one person so hung up on it?

Joe Fischer

lkgeo1

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 6:42:34 PM10/22/06

to

First Week-Long Training Course Dedicated to Hydrogen Storage
Karen Hall, National Hydrogen Association

The University of Applied Sciences in Ingolstadt, Bavaria, held a
week-long training course from 25-29 September 2006, called STORHY
Train-IN 2006. At the course, approximately 60 students from all over
the world learned about state-of-the-art hydrogen storage, including
pressure vessels, cryogenic storage, solid storage, safety aspects, and
applications.

The course focused on automotive applications, and included
demonstrations of model cars, including the award-winning Hyracer - the
world's smallest car running with a hydrogen combustion engine. It is
a 1:8 scale model of the BMW record car H2R which set up numerous
records for hydrogen-powered cars, including maximum speed (Guiness
Book of World Record 2005). The Hyracer was developed at the University
of Applied Sciences Ingolstadt by students and research assistants.
Gaseous Hydrogen is stored pressurized in aluminum cylinders and runs a
four stroke combustion engine. Challenges in the development were
cooling the engine, an ignition system for the combustion process and
meeting safety requirements. This model car demonstrates the next
generation automotive technology on a small scale.

The course combined theoretical and practical experiences, brilliantly
led by key staff from the University of Applied Sciences and augmented
with over twenty guest presentations from industry leaders. The course
was organized by Prochain e.V.

STORHY is an integrated project within the European Union Framework 6
Programme that relates to hydrogen storage systems for automotive
applications.

StorHy - General Project Information
"Hydrogen Storage Systems for Automotive Application"

Coordinator: MAGNA STEYR Fahrzeugtechnik AG & Co KG
Time frame: 2004 - 2008 (4,5 years)
Official project start: March 1, 2004
Budget: € 18.7 m
EU contribution: € 10.7 m
Website: www.storhy.net
34 partners from 13 European countries
(5 OEMs, 15 research institutes and 14 supplier companies)

And if that weren't enough, the course included an active social
program, providing opportunities to simultaneously enjoy the
hospitality of Ingolstadt (as well as a visit to Munich for
Octoberfest) and network with fellow students and presenters.

The course presented a viable model for hydrogen energy coursework that
should undoubtedly be repeated.

For additional information, please visit www.storhy.net.

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 22, 2006, 6:55:22 PM10/22/06

to

On 22 Oct 2006 15:42:34 -0700, "lkgeo1" <lkg...@aol.com> wrote:

>First Week-Long Training Course Dedicated to Hydrogen Storage
>Karen Hall, National Hydrogen Association

Still nothing for sale.

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 2:16:02 AM10/23/06

to

On 22 Oct 2006 14:03:43 -0700, "Tater" <tate...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>lkgeo1 wrote:
>> yes yes , please tell the board why fuel cells wont work. by the way,
>> you can start by explaining your expertese on this matter, before you
>> hit the kill file for eternity.
>

>.............

>lets try this. fuel cells are nothing more than a conversion device, no
>more awe inspiring than a battery, and have been used for decades.

No, fuel cells are the equivalent of a motor-generator set.

>problem is, most people think they are going to replace gasoline. no
>deal. you are taking fuel, converting into hydrogen, then running it
>thru a fuel cell to make electricity to run an electric motor. the
>efficencies of such a system are soo poor that you'd be better off
>taking the fuel and using it to drive the shaft the electric motor
>would be coupled to.

Electric is likely the most efficient energy transfer,
the problem with the fuel cell is the cost and maintenance.

>look at the two power train chains
>
>fuel - hydrogen - fuelcell - electric motor - shaft
>fuel - internal combustion engine - shaft
>
>since each link in the chain will have losses, the best way to get more
>efficiency is to eliminate the links.

Anything is more efficient than the unboosted
gasoline ICE.

But clean hydrogen has real problems, I just read
where an aircraft maker wanted to put 24,000 cubic feet
in a plane for hydrogen fuel.
This was looney, it could not possibly be cryogenic,
so it would have to be high pressure, and the largest
diameter tank can only have a diameter of about 18 inches
Maximum!
If you see a semi with long tanks about a foot in
diameter and about 12 or 15 of them, that is the way
2000 psi+ gases and liquids are transported.
Hydrogen at pressure weighs about 5 pounds per
cubic foot, but has 60,000 BTU per pound, so it may
have close to gasoline energy density by weight, but
takes up a lot more space, and requires a very heavy
tank.

But fuel cells can be designed to work with other
fuels (possibly with more maintenance involved), so
where an ICE will not be well suited, the fuel cell
might work, provided it doesn't cost too much.

Usually when government spends a lot of money
on a research program, they are briefed on the technology,
it's projected cost, viability and feasibility.
With California committed to hydrogen filling stations
all over the state, somebody needs to build cars that can use
that hydrogen.

But maybe they should build the stations so that
if hydrogen can not be made in quantity at a price that
will sell, the filling stations could dispense ethanol or
methanol or Compressed Natural Gas.

Joe Fischer

Trygve Lillefosse

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 5:19:42 AM10/23/06

to

On 22 Oct 2006 14:03:43 -0700, "Tater" <tate...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>lkgeo1 wrote:
>> yes yes , please tell the board why fuel cells wont work. by the way,

>lets try this. fuel cells are nothing more than a conversion device, no
>more awe inspiring than a battery, and have been used for decades.
>problem is, most people think they are going to replace gasoline. no
>deal. you are taking fuel, converting into hydrogen, then running it
>thru a fuel cell to make electricity to run an electric motor. the
>efficencies of such a system are soo poor that you'd be better off
>taking the fuel and using it to drive the shaft the electric motor
>would be coupled to.
>look at the two power train chains
>fuel - hydrogen - fuelcell - electric motor - shaft
>fuel - internal combustion engine - shaft
>since each link in the chain will have losses, the best way to get more
>efficiency is to eliminate the links.

It is correct that there are losses. But please remember that a
gasoline ICE delivers not mutch more that 20% of it's power to the
actual movement.

Fuel to hydrogen is the big issue. I agree with you on that. But the
nice thing about hydrogen, is that it can be produced from viritualy
any source.

I Belive that freight can also be an issue, unless the hydrogen is not
piped or produced on the spot.

With electric motors, you can eliminate the shaft, and place it
directly in the wheel, thus saving a bit there.

All in all. I guess that hydrogen and petrol is at about the same,
when petrol is used to make hydrogen from a generator.
So when you compare them directly, there are litle difference.

But when you considder all the non-poluting sources that can make
hydrogen, and the lowered emmisions from the cars in smog-riden citys
and towns. The hydrogen comes out on top.
Please remember that the goal with hydrogen is not to find a new power
source, but as means to power non-poluting(localy) cars.

When that is done, it's mutch easier to tacle polution from the
coal/gas/whetewer production plants.

CO2 could even be pumped into the ground and away from the atmosphere.
I do not know if that will be nessesary, but in this scenario, the
option is there.

Trygve Lillefosse

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 5:24:50 AM10/23/06

to

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 02:16:02 -0400, Joe Fischer
<j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
>On 22 Oct 2006 14:03:43 -0700, "Tater" <tate...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hydrogen at pressure weighs about 5 pounds per
>cubic foot, but has 60,000 BTU per pound, so it may
>have close to gasoline energy density by weight, but
>takes up a lot more space, and requires a very heavy
>tank.

But as the hydrogen is used mutch more efficient, you need less of it.
I'we read that 6-10 KG of hydrogen is equal to a ful tank of gasoline
when it comes to driving range.
I don't remember the source right now. But think it was from BMW.

Mauried

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 5:36:16 AM10/23/06

to

But why is it necessary to have hydrogen in the chain at all.
If you want to use fuel cells in cars , then simply use Ethanol Fuel
cells.
Ethanol has higher energy density / weight than hydrogen as its a
liquid like gasoline ,and its production is non polluting.
If you want to argue on the basis of efficiency, then an electric car
powered by a battery is far better than any fuel cell powered car.

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 5:59:12 AM10/23/06

to

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:24:50 +0200, Trygve Lillefosse
<try...@lillefosse.NOSPAM.org> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 02:16:02 -0400, Joe Fischer
><j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
>> Hydrogen at pressure weighs about 5 pounds per
>>cubic foot, but has 60,000 BTU per pound, so it may
>>have close to gasoline energy density by weight, but
>>takes up a lot more space, and requires a very heavy
>>tank.
>
>But as the hydrogen is used mutch more efficient, you need less of it.

In a fuel cell producing electricity, probably,

>I'we read that 6-10 KG of hydrogen is equal to a ful tank of gasoline
>when it comes to driving range.

Some gas tanks, maybe, perhaps up to 10 or 12 gallons.

>I don't remember the source right now. But think it was from BMW.

But what would a BMW with electric drive and
a hydrogen fuel cell cost?
And would it need some batteries or ultracapacitors
for acceleration allowing a 20KW fuel cell?

I would prefer to have a plugin EV, with a generator
on a trailer for long trips, and not have to be bothered with
the higher tech hydrogen refilling.

Joe Fischer

Don Lancaster

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 1:24:10 PM10/23/06

to

G.fried wrote:

>>> Please share you insight. Why is it impossimble to use a fuel-cell?
>>> Will it not deliver electricity? Will it explode? Is there some
>>> serious design flaws?
>>>
>>> Please tell, pretty please
>>>
>>

They cost too damn much.
They are unreliable.
They do not work well with room temperature liquid fuels.
Their lifetime is too short.
Automotive compatible versions are not remotely as efficient at the
system level as an internal combustion engine today.

At their eventual best, fuel cells ---> may <--- offer only a few
percentage points of efficiency improvment over ICE's.

Meanwhile, the ICE efficiency is being improved much faster and many
more and many smarter dollars are being spent on ICE.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: d...@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Dan Bloomquist

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 1:51:22 PM10/23/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:

> G.fried wrote:
>
>>>> Please share you insight. Why is it impossimble to use a fuel-cell?
>>>> Will it not deliver electricity? Will it explode? Is there some
>>>> serious design flaws?
>>>>
>>>> Please tell, pretty please
>
> They cost too damn much.
> They are unreliable.
> They do not work well with room temperature liquid fuels.
> Their lifetime is too short.
> Automotive compatible versions are not remotely as efficient at the
> system level as an internal combustion engine today.

As long as you are making a distinction between PEM and SOFC.

Tater

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 8:10:13 PM10/23/06

to

Mauried wrote:
>
> But why is it necessary to have hydrogen in the chain at all.
> If you want to use fuel cells in cars , then simply use Ethanol Fuel
> cells.
> Ethanol has higher energy density / weight than hydrogen as its a
> liquid like gasoline ,and its production is non polluting.

how does an ethanol fuel cell compare to a ICE using ethanol.

please lets also keep in mind that this would be in real world
environments, not lab conditions

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 2:24:52 AM10/24/06

to

Tater wrote:

> Mauried wrote:
> >
> > But why is it necessary to have hydrogen in the chain at all.
> > If you want to use fuel cells in cars , then simply use Ethanol Fuel
> > cells.
> > Ethanol has higher energy density / weight than hydrogen as its a
> > liquid like gasoline ,and its production is non polluting.
>
> how does an ethanol fuel cell compare to a ICE using ethanol.

Bear in mind that ethanol fuel cells aren't yet well developed but driving
electric motors they could conceivably outclass spark-ingnition ICE
engines. Outclassing diesels might be tricker.

Graham

Trygve Lillefosse

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 12:25:20 PM10/24/06

to

>But why is it necessary to have hydrogen in the chain at all.
>If you want to use fuel cells in cars , then simply use Ethanol Fuel
>cells.
>Ethanol has higher energy density / weight than hydrogen as its a
>liquid like gasoline ,and its production is non polluting.
>If you want to argue on the basis of efficiency, then an electric car
>powered by a battery is far better than any fuel cell powered car.

I guess it's not nessesary if there are other alernatives with similar
or better performance, and that are possible to produce without net
emmisions.

News

unread,

Oct 25, 2006, 9:28:26 AM10/25/06

to

"Tater" <tate...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1161551023.8...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> lkgeo1 wrote:
>> yes yes , please tell the board why fuel cells wont work. by the way,
>> you can start by explaining your expertese on this matter, before you
>> hit the kill file for eternity.
>
> hey feel free to killfile me, as the only intrest you seem to have is
> to post biased news releases. makes one think that maybe you are trying
> to drive up stock prices on fuel cell technologies.
>
> since lkgeo1 wont bother to read this message, maybe someone can point
> to him that no one has been able to beat newton at his game.
>
> ok, that sounded too crypitic
>
> lets try this. fuel cells are nothing more than a conversion device, no
> more awe inspiring than a battery, and have been used for decades.
>
> problem is, most people think they are going to replace gasoline. no
> deal. you are taking fuel, converting into hydrogen, then running it
> thru a fuel cell to make electricity to run an electric motor. the
> efficencies of such a system are soo poor that you'd be better off
> taking the fuel and using it to drive the shaft the electric motor
> would be coupled to.

Or use the fuel to generate electricity, send it down a line, charge a
battery in a vehicle and then turn the motor.

This is all a bit complicated when an EV is so simple.

News

unread,

Oct 25, 2006, 9:22:21 AM10/25/06

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"lkgeo1" <lkg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1161537261....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> GM Canada partnership key as Chevrolet prepares to launch the world's
> largest fuel cell vehicle fleet

> The "Project Driveway" market test will provide comprehensive insight
> into all aspects of the customer experience, including reaction to the
> exciting, smooth, and quiet performance of a fuel cell vehicle, and
> refueling with clean hydrogen gas.
> http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage6268.html

It is the volatile hydrogen gas that disturbs me. Fuel cells have been
developed using normal gasoline.

SJC

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Oct 25, 2006, 11:45:59 AM10/25/06

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"News" <Nos...@here.com> wrote in message news:453f6689$0$97231$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...

It is the reformer that turns gasoline to hydrogen. Fuel cells run on hydrogen
and many of them can not work with some of the impurities that come out of the
reformers.

News

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Oct 25, 2006, 3:27:51 PM10/25/06

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"Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:4q4c5sF...@individual.net...

> G.fried wrote:
>
>>>> Please share you insight. Why is it impossimble to use a fuel-cell?
>>>> Will it not deliver electricity? Will it explode? Is there some
>>>> serious design flaws?
>>>>
>>>> Please tell, pretty please
>>>>
>>>
>
> They cost too damn much.
> They are unreliable.
> They do not work well with room temperature liquid fuels.
> Their lifetime is too short.
> Automotive compatible versions are not remotely as efficient at the system
> level as an internal combustion engine today.
>
> At their eventual best, fuel cells ---> may <--- offer only a few
> percentage points of efficiency improvment over ICE's.
>
> Meanwhile, the ICE efficiency is being improved much faster and many more
> and many smarter dollars are being spent on ICE.

The piston ICE engine currently gives an average of 25% efficiency - 75% of
the energy in the tank is wasted. What percentage increase are you on about
with this improved efficiency? Will it go to 26%, 27%? The fact is you
can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. In short the piston IC engine is
little short of a joke.

I can understand being critical of the fuel cell in vehicles, but is someone
paying you to write this misinformation?

News

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Oct 25, 2006, 3:40:09 PM10/25/06

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"Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:4q4c5sF...@individual.net...

> Meanwhile, the ICE efficiency is being improved much faster and many more
> and many smarter dollars are being spent on ICE.
>
> http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

You write:

"On the other side of the fence, ICE efficiency is currently improving at
one percent per year, and additional gains can be shortly expected. "

Any independent proof of this assertion?

You go on...

"These should happen by way of 42 volt electrics, drive by wire, electric
valves, by on-demand water pumps, on-demand steering, ceramic liners,
variable compression, narrower speed operation, multi stage lean burn, CV
transmissions, bottom cycling, exhaust recovery, fully integrated
alternator/starter/regeneration, six cycle operation, hybridization, and
idle shutdown."

Wow!!!! A car and the mechanicals to make it move are complex as it is. So
much so, that cars are being scrapped with perfect bodies and suspension as
the engine does not meet emissions standards - not cost effective to bring
up to standards. Now all this extra complexity on top of the complex tripe
that is already there?

....and you expect people to take you seriously? This one doesn't.

Don Lancaster

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Oct 25, 2006, 9:41:59 PM10/25/06

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No vehicular compatible fuel cell available today even remotely
approaches ICE efficiency at the system level.

The statement that fuel cells are "two to three times" as efficient as
an ICE is an outright lie.

Even at its theoretical best, a hydrogen fuel cell can only be 83
percent efficient. When combined with the 90 percent motor efficiency,
85 percent controller efficiency, 97 percent wiring efficiency, and the
staggering energy losses during fuel reformation, there is very little
margin of possible future improvement over the dramatic improvements
(one percent per year) preesently taking place with ICE's.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.

Don Lancaster

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Oct 25, 2006, 9:43:55 PM10/25/06

to

News wrote:
>
> "Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message
> news:4q4c5sF...@individual.net...
>
>
>> Meanwhile, the ICE efficiency is being improved much faster and many
>> more and many smarter dollars are being spent on ICE.
>>
>> http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
>
>
> You write:
>
> "On the other side of the fence, ICE efficiency is currently improving
> at one percent per year, and additional gains can be shortly expected. "
>
> Any independent proof of this assertion?

http://www.sae.org among thousands of others, of course.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.

Joe Fischer

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Oct 25, 2006, 9:57:24 PM10/25/06

to

On Wed, Don Lancaster <d...@tinaja.com> wrote:

>http://www.sae.org among thousands of others, of course.

Sure, automotive engineers know the ICE well, and
will exert a lot of energy to preserve the status quo, simply
because any professional finds it stressful and painful to
be required to learn even something as simple and well
developed as an electric motor.

I would like to trade my 4 and 5 liter ICEs for
10 HP DC electric motors.

I would guess that the 5.0 liter has about 10 HP
at 1500 RPM, my average speed (city driving).

Joe Fischer

Don W

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Oct 26, 2006, 1:11:26 AM10/26/06

to

"News" <Nos...@here.com> wrote in message

news:453fbdab$0$97244$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...

>
> You write:
>
> "On the other side of the fence, ICE efficiency is currently improving at
> one percent per year, and additional gains can be shortly expected. "
>
> Any independent proof of this assertion?
>
> You go on...
>
> "These should happen by way of 42 volt electrics, drive by wire, electric
> valves, by on-demand water pumps, on-demand steering, ceramic liners,
> variable compression, narrower speed operation, multi stage lean burn, CV
> transmissions, bottom cycling, exhaust recovery, fully integrated
> alternator/starter/regeneration, six cycle operation, hybridization, and
> idle shutdown."
>
> Wow!!!! A car and the mechanicals to make it move are complex as it is.
> So much so, that cars are being scrapped with perfect bodies and
> suspension as the engine does not meet emissions standards - not cost
> effective to bring up to standards. Now all this extra complexity on top
> of the complex tripe that is already there?
>
> ....and you expect people to take you seriously? This one doesn't.
>

No surprise that the ignorant choose not to learn -- that's what makes them
ignorant. Some of those improvements actually simplify engine operation and
all of them make the engine operate better.

Neither fuel cells nor FCVs are as simple as you want to believe, but
believe what you want. There is a reason you drive a hydrocarbon-fueled
vehicle and not an FCV.

Don W.

Don W

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Oct 26, 2006, 1:19:23 AM10/26/06

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"Joe Fischer" <j...@westpointracing.com> wrote in message
news:b450k256n6qnmbsvp...@4ax.com...

All FCVs are designed by automotive engineers. I drove a commercial
electric vehicle for 3 years that was equipped with a 90 HP (AC) motor and
still didn't have nearly the accelleration of a similar vehicle with a 5
liter ICE. If you drove a vehicle with a 10 HP electric motor you would
soon change your mind about that trade. It would be insane to put a DC
motor in a vehicle in this era. All current (no pun intended) EVs use
external commutation.

Don W.

Don Lancaster

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Oct 26, 2006, 2:38:00 AM10/26/06

to

Nominal ev demands are baselined at 25 kilowatts.
Or 30 HP.

Which is remarkably similar to an old VW bug.

Eeyore

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Oct 26, 2006, 2:57:57 AM10/26/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:

> Joe Fischer wrote:
>
> > I would like to trade my 4 and 5 liter ICEs for
> > 10 HP DC electric motors.
> >
> > I would guess that the 5.0 liter has about 10 HP
> > at 1500 RPM, my average speed (city driving).
> >
> > Joe Fischer
> >
> Nominal ev demands are baselined at 25 kilowatts.
> Or 30 HP.
>
> Which is remarkably similar to an old VW bug.

I suspect he must be thinking 'old' horsepower however that was derived.

Graham

News

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Oct 26, 2006, 8:42:08 AM10/26/06

to

"Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message

news:4qai6uF...@individual.net...

> News wrote:
>>
>> "Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message
>> news:4q4c5sF...@individual.net...
>>
>>
>>> Meanwhile, the ICE efficiency is being improved much faster and many
>>> more and many smarter dollars are being spent on ICE.
>>>
>>> http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
>>
>> You write:
>>
>> "On the other side of the fence, ICE efficiency is currently improving at
>> one percent per year, and additional gains can be shortly expected. "
>>
>> Any independent proof of this assertion?
>
> http://www.sae.org among thousands of others, of course.

Well they would say things like that wouldn't they? :-)

The pistion IC engine is a washout. Anyone with half a brain can see that.

News

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Oct 26, 2006, 8:36:04 AM10/26/06

to

"Don W" <dontc...@illcallu.net> wrote in message
news:ouOdnXAvBZIY3t3Y...@comcast.com...

> "News" <Nos...@here.com> wrote in message
> news:453fbdab$0$97244$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
>>
>> You write:
>>
>> "On the other side of the fence, ICE efficiency is currently improving at
>> one percent per year, and additional gains can be shortly expected. "
>>
>> Any independent proof of this assertion?
>>
>> You go on...
>>
>> "These should happen by way of 42 volt electrics, drive by wire, electric
>> valves, by on-demand water pumps, on-demand steering, ceramic liners,
>> variable compression, narrower speed operation, multi stage lean burn, CV
>> transmissions, bottom cycling, exhaust recovery, fully integrated
>> alternator/starter/regeneration, six cycle operation, hybridization, and
>> idle shutdown."
>>
>> Wow!!!! A car and the mechanicals to make it move are complex as it is.
>> So much so, that cars are being scrapped with perfect bodies and
>> suspension as the engine does not meet emissions standards - not cost
>> effective to bring up to standards. Now all this extra complexity on top
>> of the complex tripe that is already there?
>>
>> ....and you expect people to take you seriously? This one doesn't.
>>
>
> No surprise that the ignorant choose not to learn

I agree with you.

> ignorant. Some of those improvements actually simplify engine operation
> and all of them make the engine operate better.

You jest of course.

> Neither fuel cells nor FCVs are as simple as you want to believe, but
> believe what you want.

I am not shouting the virtues of the fuel cell.

> There is a reason you drive a hydrocarbon-fueled vehicle and not an FCV.

Yep. Vested interest. Please don't come back with crap like if the auto
companies thought it would be better to do this they would. They are scared
stiff of advancing. Remember the billions they spent on lawyers trying to
stop emissions laws in the 1970s. Bosch just looked at and came up with the
solution very quickly and easily, and didn't spend a fortune on lawyers
either.

News

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Oct 26, 2006, 8:47:16 AM10/26/06

to

"Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message

news:4qai6uF...@individual.net...

> News wrote:
>>
>> "Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message
>> news:4q4c5sF...@individual.net...
>>
>>
>>> Meanwhile, the ICE efficiency is being improved much faster and many
>>> more and many smarter dollars are being spent on ICE.
>>>
>>> http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
>>
>>
>> You write:
>>
>> "On the other side of the fence, ICE efficiency is currently improving at
>> one percent per year, and additional gains can be shortly expected. "
>>
>> Any independent proof of this assertion?
>
>
> http://www.sae.org among thousands of others, of course.

I did search of "EV" on this site and the ealiest hit was 2000
I did search of "Electric vehicle" on this site and the ealiest hit was 2004

Way up to date eh? Leading edge eh?

Eeyore

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Oct 26, 2006, 10:03:55 AM10/26/06

to

News wrote:

> The pistion IC engine is a washout. Anyone with half a brain can see that.

Marine diesels are in the order of 50% efficient !

Beat that with anything you have.

Graham

Joe Fischer

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Oct 26, 2006, 10:14:39 AM10/26/06

to

On Wed, "Don W" <dontc...@illcallu.net> wrote:

>All FCVs are designed by automotive engineers.

I don't want a fuel cell vehicle, I don't want to
put fuel in a vehicle, I want an EV.

>I drove a commercial
>electric vehicle for 3 years that was equipped with a 90 HP (AC) motor and
>still didn't have nearly the accelleration of a similar vehicle with a 5
>liter ICE.

I am in no hurry, I drove a commercial vehicle
in 1945 that had a DC electric motor and batteries
under the floor boards, and it had enough acceleration.

>If you drove a vehicle with a 10 HP electric motor you would
>soon change your mind about that trade.

No a chance, I have worked on ICE cars for 60 years
and I want to get away from them.

>It would be insane to put a DC
>motor in a vehicle in this era.

Why, too much power at low RPM?

>All current (no pun intended) EVs use
>external commutation.
>Don W.

What current EVs, auto engineers don't know
how to make them.
All they know is put in one big motor, a drive
shaft, maybe a transmission, and dozens of devices
and extra junk to double the sticker price.

There seems to be some agenda to keep people
buying fuel, like the inkjet makers try to keep people
buying ink cartridges with 1/3rd ounce of ink for
$20 or $30.

People are buying small utility vehicles right
and left, and as soon as the knowledge that weight
is not a critical factor with regenerative braking,
they will get bigger.

US car makers are in big trouble because of
the engineers mindset, big motor, connected to the
wheels at all times, anything goes wrong only the
dealer garages are allowed to work on it.

It is a sad situation that thousands of people
are having to convert vehicles to EVs to be able to
drive an EV, while automotive engineers say it
won't work.

Joe Fischer Buy no car till it has an electric motor.

Joe Fischer

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Oct 26, 2006, 10:22:21 AM10/26/06

to

On Wed, 25 Oct Don Lancaster <d...@tinaja.com> wrote:

>Nominal ev demands are baselined at 25 kilowatts.
>Or 30 HP.
>
>Which is remarkably similar to an old VW bug.

Too fast for me, I drive half fast.

I remember when "goes like 60" was a compliment,
and the Model T would go 60, not 61 or 62, just 60, and
that was way too fast.

I like to drive 35 or 40 now, and without the big
air scoop grille in front, 10 HP is plenty to overcome
the wind drag, and all of my driving is on essentially
flat roads.

Joe Fischer

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Oct 26, 2006, 10:34:14 AM10/26/06

to

On Thu, 26 Oct "News" <Nos...@here.com> wrote:

>>>........

>>> http://www.sae.org among thousands of others, of course.
>
>I did search of "EV" on this site and the ealiest hit was 2000
>I did search of "Electric vehicle" on this site and the ealiest hit was 2004
>
>Way up to date eh? Leading edge eh?

Do a search for electric conversion garage, just click
the link and see where change is the word;

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=electric+conversion+garage

Too bad there isn't one of these places in every city
and town;

http://labshelf.com/electric-car-conversion-list.html

Check out the 4000 and 5000 pound vehicle parts.

Joe Fischer

ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com

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Oct 26, 2006, 10:49:28 AM10/26/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:
> News wrote:
[snip]

>
> No vehicular compatible fuel cell available today even remotely
> approaches ICE efficiency at the system level.
>
> The statement that fuel cells are "two to three times" as efficient as
> an ICE is an outright lie.
>
> Even at its theoretical best, a hydrogen fuel cell can only be 83
> percent efficient. When combined with the 90 percent motor efficiency,
> 85 percent controller efficiency, 97 percent wiring efficiency, and the
> staggering energy losses during fuel reformation, there is very little
> margin of possible future improvement over the dramatic improvements
> (one percent per year) preesently taking place with ICE's.
>
> See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.

I didn't see much more detail than you've listed here. Efficiency
is
always a tricky calculation and needs alot of definition. But your
prediction of 38% efficiency for ICE's seems to be based upon
some presumptions that benefit ICE's and work against the fuel
cell. Efficiency at the "system" level for an automobile of an ICE
is often expressed in the mid teens because of the tendency
for the ICE to run even when no useful work is being done (mostly
at traffic lights but also bad traffic). EV's working on fuel cells
get to avoid much of that inefficiency.

Now, your best point will be on how a fuel cell gets "fueled".
There will be an inefficiency in that process, although one would
have to fairly consider the energy involved in putting the gas in
your tank from the oil field. But many EV/fuel cell advocates
are going to prefer merely to discuss whether the energy in
the "tank" is more efficiently used in propelling the vehicle,
over the total distance and time, with an ICE or a fuel cell/EV
combination.

Don Lancaster

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Oct 26, 2006, 11:32:34 AM10/26/06

to

At present ICE's clearly offer overwhelming superiority to FCV's.
As conclusively and unquestionably proven by unit sales.

The FCV's are clearly falling further and further behind because much
more money and much smarter engineering is being poured into the ICE.

Hybrid ICE + Lithium makes infinitely more sense than FCV's for the
forseeable future. And quite possibly forever.

See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a tutorial.

Eeyore

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Oct 26, 2006, 11:33:05 AM10/26/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

In other words it won't sell.

Graham

ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com

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Oct 26, 2006, 11:43:52 AM10/26/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:
> ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:
> > Don Lancaster wrote:

[snip]

> >>See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for a detailed analysis.
> >
> >
> > I didn't see much more detail than you've listed here. Efficiency is
> > always a tricky calculation and needs alot of definition. But your
> > prediction of 38% efficiency for ICE's seems to be based upon
> > some presumptions that benefit ICE's and work against the fuel
> > cell. Efficiency at the "system" level for an automobile of an ICE
> > is often expressed in the mid teens because of the tendency
> > for the ICE to run even when no useful work is being done (mostly
> > at traffic lights but also bad traffic). EV's working on fuel cells
> > get to avoid much of that inefficiency.
> >
> > Now, your best point will be on how a fuel cell gets "fueled".
> > There will be an inefficiency in that process, although one would
> > have to fairly consider the energy involved in putting the gas in
> > your tank from the oil field. But many EV/fuel cell advocates
> > are going to prefer merely to discuss whether the energy in
> > the "tank" is more efficiently used in propelling the vehicle,
> > over the total distance and time, with an ICE or a fuel cell/EV
> > combination.
>
> At present ICE's clearly offer overwhelming superiority to FCV's.
> As conclusively and unquestionably proven by unit sales.

Huh, you measure efficiency through unit sales? The question was
about efficiency.

> The FCV's are clearly falling further and further behind because much
> more money and much smarter engineering is being poured into the ICE.
>
> Hybrid ICE + Lithium makes infinitely more sense than FCV's for the
> forseeable future. And quite possibly forever.

I suspect this is true. A fuel cell is merely a battery and as
batteries
improve, they'll make good combinations with ICE's. I strongly suspect
that a good turbine would improve the performance of the ICE a bit
as well. Ultimately though, hauling around 2 portable engines to do
the job essentially of one is probably a loser. The only real question
is what kind of battery is left. At that point it's merely a
competition
between a fuel cell or some other form of battery.

Don Lancaster

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Oct 26, 2006, 11:48:17 AM10/26/06

to

Amortized cost has to be included in efficiency calculations.
If it costs ten times as much to run, it is clearly not nearly as efficient.

A useful guideline is that 1 kilowatt hour is fungible and
interchangible with one dime.

Joe Fischer

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Oct 26, 2006, 12:22:10 PM10/26/06

to

On Thu, Don Lancaster <d...@tinaja.com> wrote:

>At present ICE's clearly offer overwhelming superiority to FCV's.

What does that say about the subject title of this thread?

>As conclusively and unquestionably proven by unit sales.

Auto makers can't sell what they don't know how
to build.

>The FCV's are clearly falling further and further behind because much
>more money and much smarter engineering is being poured into the ICE.

Throwing more money down the sewer is a common mistake.

The fuel cell suffers the same fuel problems as an
ICE, or worse, and obviously has a problem with power
rating, although that can be helped with batteries.

Personally, I don't like the idea of fuel and electrical
conductors being in the same box, the fuel pumps in the
gas tank is a moronic idea, and a high power fuel cell is
worse because conductors do heat up, melt, and arc.

>Hybrid ICE + Lithium makes infinitely more sense than FCV's for the
>forseeable future. And quite possibly forever.

Is there some reason the car can't be designed
(with the electric motor(s)), without the ICE, and let
the customer chose how the electric power is provided?

The idea of both an ICE and electric motor
connected to the drive train is a kludge.

Fuel is only renewable from a few sources,
while electricity is the truly convertible energy,
with very high point of use efficiency.

Maybe if auto injun ears can learn to count
to two (electric motors), maybe there will be cars
that are more than 50 percent efficient, with less
CO2 emissions, quieter, and will get better mileage
in city traffic than on the highway, regardless of
how the electricity is generated.

Joe Fischer

ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com

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Oct 26, 2006, 12:48:38 PM10/26/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:
> ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:

[snip]

> > I suspect this is true. A fuel cell is merely a battery and as
> > batteries
> > improve, they'll make good combinations with ICE's. I strongly suspect
> > that a good turbine would improve the performance of the ICE a bit
> > as well. Ultimately though, hauling around 2 portable engines to do
> > the job essentially of one is probably a loser. The only real question
> > is what kind of battery is left. At that point it's merely a
> > competition
> > between a fuel cell or some other form of battery.
>
> Amortized cost has to be included in efficiency calculations.

Sure, as soon as you can pump dollars out of the ground,
or turn dimes into joules.

> If it costs ten times as much to run, it is clearly not nearly as efficient.

That's a pretty lame definition of efficiency in this context.
What
you're describing is not efficiency, it is affordability.

> A useful guideline is that 1 kilowatt hour is fungible and
> interchangible with one dime.

Unfortunately not. Energy is basically a resource and is
consumable, in an economic sense.

ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 1:03:10 PM10/26/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:
> On Thu, Don Lancaster <d...@tinaja.com> wrote:

[snip]

> >Hybrid ICE + Lithium makes infinitely more sense than FCV's for the
> >forseeable future. And quite possibly forever.
>
> Is there some reason the car can't be designed
> (with the electric motor(s)), without the ICE, and let
> the customer chose how the electric power is provided?

Only economic. i.e. they won't sell. A car needs an
energy source and it needs to be rapidly renewable. It
doesn't have to be an ICE, but right now they work pretty
well at that aspect. I do suspect that the process we
are now seeing play out is that batteries will get better,
folks will seek cheaper ways to "fill" them, and the
ICE will get less and less use until it is seens as superflous
and then will be dropped. That final step though is
probably a very long way off. I suspect we will all be
driving around in ICE (well, hydrocarbon fueled) vehicles
for a long time. We may be fortunate enough though to
only "fuel" them monthly.

> The idea of both an ICE and electric motor
> connected to the drive train is a kludge.

Actually, no. I used to think the same thing. But
with current technology, it makes sense. Instead of
having essentially 2 motors, both capable of powering
the car, you have have 2 smaller motors, that occasionally
both need to be used for maximum power. Once batteries
get good enough, I think you'll see this change. At that
point the ICE's will get very small and only be used to
generate power to ensure minimum charge levels.

> Fuel is only renewable from a few sources,
> while electricity is the truly convertible energy,
> with very high point of use efficiency.

I think it is generally a mistake to discuss fuel and
electricity in the same sentence. Electricity is merely
a delivery mechanism for energy. Fuel is an energy
storage medium. Gasoline is a very good energy
storage medium, apart from some pesky waste
product problems. Batteries are trying to catch up.

> Maybe if auto injun ears can learn to count
> to two (electric motors), maybe there will be cars
> that are more than 50 percent efficient, with less
> CO2 emissions, quieter, and will get better mileage
> in city traffic than on the highway, regardless of
> how the electricity is generated.

Exactly. The beauty of the hybrids, and ultimately
a pure EV is that we can then have true market competition
for where the energy comes from. Multifuel vehicles
will ultimately be possible.

Eeyore

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Oct 26, 2006, 1:33:32 PM10/26/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

> On Thu, Don Lancaster <d...@tinaja.com> wrote:
>
> >At present ICE's clearly offer overwhelming superiority to FCV's.
>
> What does that say about the subject title of this thread?

That it was started by lkgeo1 - a total lunatic.

Graham

Don Lancaster

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Oct 26, 2006, 1:37:02 PM10/26/06

to

ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:

>>
>>Amortized cost has to be included in efficiency calculations.
>
>
> Sure, as soon as you can pump dollars out of the ground,
> or turn dimes into joules.
>

You mean like an being oil company or paying your power bill?

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 2:23:10 PM10/26/06

to

On 26 Oct 2006 ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:

>Joe Fischer wrote:
>> On Thu, Don Lancaster <d...@tinaja.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>> >Hybrid ICE + Lithium makes infinitely more sense than FCV's for the
>> >forseeable future. And quite possibly forever.
>>
>> Is there some reason the car can't be designed
>> (with the electric motor(s)), without the ICE, and let
>> the customer chose how the electric power is provided?
>
> Only economic. i.e. they won't sell. A car needs an
>energy source and it needs to be rapidly renewable.

That would be fine, selling the energy source
as optional, airliners are sold with optional engines.

At a new car dealership it usually takes half
a day to bring in the right color and model, clean it
up and install the trim that was removed before
shipping.
A choice of energy source could be installed
just as easy, provided the basic car is electric.

> It
>doesn't have to be an ICE, but right now they work pretty
>well at that aspect. I do suspect that the process we
>are now seeing play out is that batteries will get better,
>folks will seek cheaper ways to "fill" them, and the
>ICE will get less and less use until it is seens as superflous
>and then will be dropped.

An ICE is ok if it only runs a generator at constant
RPM, and if it is less than 30 HP.

>That final step though is
>probably a very long way off. I suspect we will all be
>driving around in ICE (well, hydrocarbon fueled) vehicles
>for a long time. We may be fortunate enough though to
>only "fuel" them monthly.

The buyers could change that quickly, just don't
buy an ICE over 30 HP, there is no shortage of cars with
oversize motors.

>> The idea of both an ICE and electric motor
>> connected to the drive train is a kludge.
>
> Actually, no. I used to think the same thing. But
>with current technology, it makes sense. Instead of
>having essentially 2 motors, both capable of powering
>the car, you have have 2 smaller motors, that occasionally
>both need to be used for maximum power.

The problem is having an ICE run at an RPM
where it is powerful enough to assist in acceleration
or hill climbing. I assume that this causes the ICE
to be oversize, but I don't know that as a fact.
There may be some hydraulic drive that allows
an ICE to rev up and be connected to the drive train,
but it still looks like a kludge.
The problem I see is the price and availability
of copper, if copper were plentiful and low cost, then
the extra electric motors and generators would be the
immediate answer.

>Once batteries
>get good enough, I think you'll see this change. At that
>point the ICE's will get very small and only be used to
>generate power to ensure minimum charge levels.

I think there should be more than one small
generator, there is no sense running a bigger one
and having it shut off and on too often.

>> Fuel is only renewable from a few sources,
>> while electricity is the truly convertible energy,
>> with very high point of use efficiency.
>
> I think it is generally a mistake to discuss fuel and
>electricity in the same sentence. Electricity is merely
>a delivery mechanism for energy. Fuel is an energy
>storage medium. Gasoline is a very good energy
>storage medium, apart from some pesky waste
>product problems. Batteries are trying to catch up.

For a plugin EV, electricity is the fuel.

Batteries are getting better, and a combination
of batteries and ultracapacitors are already "caught up",
except for price.

>> Maybe if auto injun ears can learn to count
>> to two (electric motors), maybe there will be cars
>> that are more than 50 percent efficient, with less
>> CO2 emissions, quieter, and will get better mileage
>> in city traffic than on the highway, regardless of
>> how the electricity is generated.
>
> Exactly. The beauty of the hybrids, and ultimately
>a pure EV is that we can then have true market competition
>for where the energy comes from. Multifuel vehicles
>will ultimately be possible.

If one or more companies can produce hybrids that
get better mileage in city driving than on the highway, then
because most driving is in the city, it would seem that all
companies would be tooling to build the same design.

They always have to negotiate patent agreements or
work around the patents, but I see no great obstacle in
this regard for hybrids, electric cars with two stock
emergency generators would not be patentable,
and both electric cars and emergency generators have
been around for a long time.

The holdup may be weighted more by the
price of copper than I think, or maybe there is
another reason for just token production of hybrids,
maybe converting the engine plants to producing
smaller motors and other parts takes a long time.

But both Honda and Toyota are going strong
on hybrids, and the other car makers need to compete
or lose out,
Perhaps they don't see the problem as an immediate
one because oil is plentiful, but the buyers may see it different.

Joe Fischer

Dan Bloomquist

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 2:34:06 PM10/26/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

> On Thu, Don Lancaster <d...@tinaja.com> wrote:
>
>
>>At present ICE's clearly offer overwhelming superiority to FCV's.
>
>
> What does that say about the subject title of this thread?

It sounds like GM is off on another fiasco like the EV-1. They will
destroy capital they don't have and fool the witless like you.

"these zero emission vehicles at GM’s ...."

What a crock.
>

ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 3:14:54 PM10/26/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:
> ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:
>
> >>
> >>Amortized cost has to be included in efficiency calculations.
> >
> >
> > Sure, as soon as you can pump dollars out of the ground,
> > or turn dimes into joules.
> >
>
> You mean like an being oil company or paying your power bill?

No like burning nickles, or finding dollars growing on trees.

Don Lancaster

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 4:36:48 PM10/26/06

to

you mean like buying firewood, or being a lumber company?

ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 5:03:07 PM10/26/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:
> ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:
> > Don Lancaster wrote:
> >
> >>ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>Amortized cost has to be included in efficiency calculations.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sure, as soon as you can pump dollars out of the ground,
> >>>or turn dimes into joules.
> >>>
> >>
> >>You mean like an being oil company or paying your power bill?
> >
> >
> >
> > No like burning nickles, or finding dollars growing on trees.
> >
>
> you mean like buying firewood, or being a lumber company?

Nope. Lumber ain't money and you can't burn nickles.

Don Lancaster

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 6:41:23 PM10/26/06

to

Tell that to Home Depot.

Mauried

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 7:27:11 PM10/26/06

to

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:42:08 +0100, "News" <Nos...@here.com> wrote:

>
>"Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message
>news:4qai6uF...@individual.net...
>> News wrote:
>>>
>>> "Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4q4c5sF...@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, the ICE efficiency is being improved much faster and many
>>>> more and many smarter dollars are being spent on ICE.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
>>>
>>> You write:
>>>
>>> "On the other side of the fence, ICE efficiency is currently improving at
>>> one percent per year, and additional gains can be shortly expected. "
>>>
>>> Any independent proof of this assertion?
>>
>> http://www.sae.org among thousands of others, of course.
>
>Well they would say things like that wouldn't they? :-)
>
>The pistion IC engine is a washout. Anyone with half a brain can see that.
>

Why exactly, guess I dont have much of a brain then.
If its because its efficiency is so low then so what, efficiency is
totally irrelevant.
Solar cells are only 15 -20% efficient, guess that makes them a total
washout too does it.
Try and understand that how efficient a process is simply isnt
relevant in a consumer market.
What matters is how much it costs to achieve a particular goal , and
how wlll that goal is achieved.
How efficient is your TV set , or your toaster.
ICE engines will be with us for a long time to come simply because
there is nothing vaguely close that can achieve the same outcome at
the same cost.
And thats because of these simple numbers.
Gasoline = 38 Mj/litre.
Diesel = 40 Mj/litre
Find me something as good or better that occupies the same space or
less and weights the same or less.

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 8:23:56 PM10/26/06

to

On Thu, 26 Oct mau...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Oct "News" <Nos...@here.com> wrote:

>>Well they would say things like that wouldn't they? :-)
>>
>>The pistion IC engine is a washout. Anyone with half a brain can see that.
>
>Why exactly, guess I dont have much of a brain then.
>If its because its efficiency is so low then so what, efficiency is
>totally irrelevant.
>Solar cells are only 15 -20% efficient, guess that makes them a total
>washout too does it.

Solar PV needs no fuel, so after the initial cost,
efficiency has no meaning in the same way it does in
an ICE.

>Try and understand that how efficient a process is simply isnt
>relevant in a consumer market.

The amount of fuel needed to go from here to there
is relevant, and efficiency of an ICE is an issue.

>What matters is how much it costs to achieve a particular goal , and
>how wlll that goal is achieved.

And it has been shown that hybrids achieve the goal
of getting from here to there with less fuel.

>ICE engines will be with us for a long time to come simply because
>there is nothing vaguely close that can achieve the same outcome at
>the same cost.

A hybrid does not need to be gasoline-electric,
it could be gasoline-gasoline, the hybrid simply is a
practical application showing that one big engine
running at low throttle settings has poor fuel efficiency.

>And thats because of these simple numbers.
>Gasoline = 38 Mj/litre.
>Diesel = 40 Mj/litre
>Find me something as good or better that occupies the same space or
>less and weights the same or less.

An ICE doesn't have to be gasoline, but the problem
is still the mindset of one engine connected to the wheels
all the time.

Even if a renewable fuel like ethanol is used, the
one big engine concept needs to change.

Actually, because of the fact that ethanol has
such a high octane rating, it can be used in an ICE
with a higher compression ratio and with supercharge,
supposedly providing more power than gasoline
in the same ICE (modified).
Next years Indy should shed some light on this.

But the public needs vehicles that cost less to
run, and two engines are better than one.

Joe Fischer

Duane C. Johnson

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 8:41:43 PM10/26/06

to j...@westpointracing.com

Hi Joe;

j...@westpointracing.com wrote:

> Solar PV needs no fuel, so after the initial
> cost, efficiency has no meaning in the same way
> it does in an ICE.

Of course there is no fuel cost.
But there is opportunity cost, and this cost is
generally much higher than with a car.

> Joe Fischer

Duane

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 9:02:15 PM10/26/06

to

On Thu, "Duane C. Johnson" <red...@redrok.com> wrote:

>Of course there is no fuel cost.
>But there is opportunity cost, and this cost is
>generally much higher than with a car.

What is "opportunity cost"?

Solar can be more modular, where the sun shines,
any type of solar can be started with just a small system,
and that can be added to.

A car could have modular power, with batteries
or more than one engine, but a car can never save
money or fuel like solar can.

Joe Fischer

Josh Hill

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 9:57:56 PM10/26/06

to

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:36:04 +0100, "News" <Nos...@here.com> wrote:

>
>"Don W" <dontc...@illcallu.net> wrote in message
>news:ouOdnXAvBZIY3t3Y...@comcast.com...
>> "News" <Nos...@here.com> wrote in message
>> news:453fbdab$0$97244$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...

>>>
>>> You write:
>>>
>>> "On the other side of the fence, ICE efficiency is currently improving at
>>> one percent per year, and additional gains can be shortly expected. "
>>>
>>> Any independent proof of this assertion?
>>>

>>> You go on...
>>>
>>> "These should happen by way of 42 volt electrics, drive by wire, electric
>>> valves, by on-demand water pumps, on-demand steering, ceramic liners,
>>> variable compression, narrower speed operation, multi stage lean burn, CV
>>> transmissions, bottom cycling, exhaust recovery, fully integrated
>>> alternator/starter/regeneration, six cycle operation, hybridization, and
>>> idle shutdown."
>>>
>>> Wow!!!! A car and the mechanicals to make it move are complex as it is.
>>> So much so, that cars are being scrapped with perfect bodies and
>>> suspension as the engine does not meet emissions standards - not cost
>>> effective to bring up to standards. Now all this extra complexity on top
>>> of the complex tripe that is already there?
>>>
>>> ....and you expect people to take you seriously? This one doesn't.
>>>
>>
>> No surprise that the ignorant choose not to learn
>
>I agree with you.
>
>> ignorant. Some of those improvements actually simplify engine operation
>> and all of them make the engine operate better.
>
>You jest of course.
>
>> Neither fuel cells nor FCVs are as simple as you want to believe, but
>> believe what you want.
>
>I am not shouting the virtues of the fuel cell.
>
>> There is a reason you drive a hydrocarbon-fueled vehicle and not an FCV.
>
>Yep. Vested interest. Please don't come back with crap like if the auto
>companies thought it would be better to do this they would. They are scared
>stiff of advancing. Remember the billions they spent on lawyers trying to
>stop emissions laws in the 1970s. Bosch just looked at and came up with the
>solution very quickly and easily, and didn't spend a fortune on lawyers
>either.

The auto companies aren't scared of advancing: they're putting lots of
R&D into fuel cells and hybrid technology, the two approaches that
have the best chance of working in the short term. (Don't mean to
overlook diesels and flex fuel vehicles, but they aren't new tech.)
Toyota has of course emphasized hybrids, while GM is in typical
American fashion taking a less incremental approach.

--
Josh

[Truly] I say to you, [...] angel [...] power will be able to see that [...]
these to whom [...] holy generations [...]. After Jesus said this, he departed.

- The Gospel of Judas

Duane C. Johnson

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 10:06:16 PM10/26/06

to j...@westpointracing.com

Hi Joe;

j...@westpointracing.com wrote:

> "Duane C. Johnson" <red...@redrok.com> wrote:

> > Of course there is no fuel cost.
> > But there is opportunity cost, and this cost is
> > generally much higher than with a car.

> What is "opportunity cost"?

See how Wikipedia defines it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Amongst other opportunity costs, the time value of
loans to purchase or investment interests not received
are very significant in solar PV installations.

If opportunity costs are ignored one may conclude
the payback time is shorter than in reality.

> Solar can be more modular, where the sun shines,
> any type of solar can be started with just a small
> system, and that can be added to.

> A car could have modular power, with batteries
> or more than one engine, but a car can never save
> money or fuel like solar can.

> Joe Fischer

Duane

Mauried

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 10:41:14 PM10/26/06

to

The public need vehicles that the public want to buy,and what concerns
them most is how much the car costs to buy, not how much it costs to
run, that a secondary issue.
I dont think that many of the public will be buying Telsla electric
cars , even though they are very cheap to run.

How often to do you see Joe average public walk into a car yard and
ask to buy the most efficient car , never.
The average public woulndt have the slightest idea how efficient / non
eficient their car is .

If running costs of a car were the only concern , there would be a
world demand for electric cars , and Joe average public would be
demanding them , but it aint happening.

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 10:45:33 PM10/26/06

to

On Thu, "Duane C. Johnson" <red...@redrok.com> wrote:

>See how Wikipedia defines it.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
>
>Amongst other opportunity costs, the time value of
>loans to purchase or investment interests not received
>are very significant in solar PV installations.

Perhaps some might consider it a hobby, how
much money have I spent on hobbies that never
returned a dime.

Another thing that should be considered is
cost now and cost in the distant future. While
PV cells and panels may come down some, the
overall cost may not come down, and fossil fuel
and electric grid rates may go up.
Panels now can be had at around $4 or $5
a watt, and it is physically impossible to make
any kind of panel for less than a few dollars
per square foot, and about 8 watts per square foot
may be optimistic over the life of the system.

>If opportunity costs are ignored one may conclude
>the payback time is shorter than in reality.

>Duane

What is more important, short payback time
or total savings over the life of the system?
Why should the system pay for itself in the
time needed to pay off the debt?

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 26, 2006, 11:05:53 PM10/26/06

to

On Fri, mau...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:23:56 -0400, Joe Fischer
><j...@westpointracing.com> wrote:
>> But the public needs vehicles that cost less to
>>run, and two engines are better than one.
>

>The public need vehicles that the public want to buy,and what concerns
>them most is how much the car costs to buy, not how much it costs to
>run, that a secondary issue.

Only a certain segment of the population buys new cars,
and most may very well buy for appearance or reasons other
than gas mileage.
But when gas was near $3, good mileage cars were
selling good, and big car values dropped.

>I dont think that many of the public will be buying Telsla electric
>cars , even though they are very cheap to run.

Just watch if a major car maker comes out with
a PHEV at a median price. The main reason sales
of EVs have been low is high price and no availability,
the EV1 was offered in how many cities?

>How often to do you see Joe average public walk into a car yard and
>ask to buy the most efficient car , never.

Every one when gas was high. I was considering
selling my 1988 d' elegance, and everybody laughed.

>The average public woulndt have the slightest idea how efficient / non
>eficient their car is .

They know what gas mileage is, and how much it
takes to fill the tank and how many miles that takes them.

>If running costs of a car were the only concern , there would be a
>world demand for electric cars , and Joe average public would be
>demanding them , but it aint happening.

Total cost is a big concern, which is why so many
people buy used cars.

I could have paid cash for almost any car, but
the last car I bought was the 1988 five years ago.
Even at 15 miles per gallon, I could drive
a long way on what a new car would cost.

US auto makers are in a spot, with union
wages with benefits over $30 an hour, and the
average American making about half that or
less, not everybody can afford a new car.

But build any car that looks ok, has less
cost per mile, and watch how many sell.

That is why the Asian brand cars sell so good.

Joe Fischer

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 2:21:39 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

> airliners are sold with optional engines.

*Some* airliners are sold with engine options.

The engines are not optional.

Graham

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 2:25:45 AM10/27/06

to

Josh Hill wrote:

> GM is in typical American fashion taking a less incremental approach.

GM hasn't a clue. Neither does Ford. Mercedes is now looking to divest itself of
Chrysler.

If Yank car companies don't wake up to facts they won't exist for much longer.

Graham

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 2:31:49 AM10/27/06

to

Mauried wrote:

> ICE engines will be with us for a long time to come simply because
> there is nothing vaguely close that can achieve the same outcome at
> the same cost.

I agree.

Futhermore, they're well-developed and understood, reliable durable and effective
and are fairly inexpensive to make.

There is also room for improving their efficiency.

> And thats because of these simple numbers.
> Gasoline = 38 Mj/litre.
> Diesel = 40 Mj/litre

You can also use ethanol, methanol, butanol, LNG, LPG in them !

> Find me something as good or better that occupies the same space or
> less and weights the same or less.

I can't think of anything offhand.

Graham

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 2:33:34 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

> Solar PV needs no fuel, so after the initial cost,
> efficiency has no meaning in the same way it does in
> an ICE.

The initial cost currently is collosal though.

> An ICE doesn't have to be gasoline, but the problem
> is still the mindset of one engine connected to the wheels
> all the time.

There is *nothing* wrong with that !

Graham

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 2:36:07 AM10/27/06

to

Mauried wrote:

> The public need vehicles that the public want to buy,and what concerns
> them most is how much the car costs to buy, not how much it costs to
> run, that a secondary issue.
> I dont think that many of the public will be buying Telsla electric
> cars , even though they are very cheap to run.
>
> How often to do you see Joe average public walk into a car yard and
> ask to buy the most efficient car , never.
> The average public woulndt have the slightest idea how efficient / non
> eficient their car is .

Increase fuel prices to European levels and you'll see a different approach
virtually overnight.

Graham

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 2:44:07 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

>
> Panels now can be had at around $4 or $5
> a watt

So it would take ~ 40,000 hrs of producing electricity to pay back the
originakl investment assuming zero interest on the installation.

Take an average 4 hours a day of insolation @ 100% ( quite generous )
and that translates to 10,000 days or ~ 30 years !

That's a truly bad investment.

Graham

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 2:45:20 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

> Why should the system pay for itself in the
> time needed to pay off the debt?

Because other energy methods *will* ! Therefore you should use *them*
not solar PV.

Graham

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 4:48:50 AM10/27/06

to

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:31:49 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Mauried wrote:
>> Find me something as good or better that occupies the same space or
>> less and weights the same or less.
>
>I can't think of anything offhand.
>Graham

He was talking the fuel, I think, but electric
motors can be made that are far more powerful
than an ICE pound for pound and fit in a smaller
space, the higher the AC cycles, the more power.
That is why US Navy ship motors are 400
or 600 cycles or more.

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 4:52:40 AM10/27/06

to

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:33:34 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Joe Fischer wrote:
>> An ICE doesn't have to be gasoline, but the problem
>> is still the mindset of one engine connected to the wheels
>> all the time.
>
>There is *nothing* wrong with that !
>Graham

Except about half the MPG of a hybrid, or a
two ICE car, which can cruise with 1/4th the displacement.

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 5:01:08 AM10/27/06

to

Both are needed, and it is solar PV that makes
living far from the grid feasible, and renewable, even
on a boat, much better than going after and paying
for fuel.

Joe Fischer

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 5:06:51 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

But not 100kHz !

The fuel is rather important actually.

Graham

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 5:07:55 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

Wind turbines are usually vastly mosre sensible for off-grid.

Graham

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 5:07:16 AM10/27/06

to

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:44:07 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Joe Fischer wrote:
>> Panels now can be had at around $4 or $5
>> a watt
>
>So it would take ~ 40,000 hrs of producing electricity to pay back the
>originakl investment assuming zero interest on the installation.

Not where grid electricity is 20 cents or more,
and not where a generator is used, calculate the cost
of fuel per KWH in an ICE generator.

>Take an average 4 hours a day of insolation @ 100% ( quite generous )
>and that translates to 10,000 days or ~ 30 years !
>That's a truly bad investment.
>Graham

Not really, how can "free" be a bad investment,
if it pays for itself in fuel or grid cost savings, then
it is the same as getting it or free.

Joe Fischer

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 5:12:49 AM10/27/06

to

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:07:55 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Many places solar is more dependable than wind.

Joe Fischer

Mauried

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 5:31:48 AM10/27/06

to

Its more dependable at doing what it does , but there seems to be a
colossal lack of understanding.
The Aust Govt has just announced it will spend some $75 million to
build the worlds largest "Solar Power Station."
I put the Solar power station in comma because Id be interested to
know what most readers think a solar power station is ?
This Solar Power Station will make 145 MW and power some 45000 homes.
When it was suggested to the Politician making the announcements as to
what would the homes be powered by at night , he stumbled and coundnt
come up with any answer, seems he though that Solar Power Stations
make power all the time.

In this case the Solar Power Station is of the flat mirror type
reflecting light on a central collector to boil some liquid and drive
a turbine.

Does anyone have any reliable costs in terms of $ per MW/H generated
of what these types of stations cost to run and build.
Unless these sorts of stations are ultra cheap I wouldnt have thought
that $75 M would get you 145 MW.
Thats only $0.51 cents per watt which is 10 times cheaper than
conventional solar voltaic.

Eeyore

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 6:38:26 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

> Eeyore <rabbitsfriend...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Joe Fischer wrote:
> >> Panels now can be had at around $4 or $5 a watt
> >
> >So it would take ~ 40,000 hrs of producing electricity to pay back the
> >originakl investment assuming zero interest on the installation.
>
> Not where grid electricity is 20 cents or more,

20,000 hrs then ! Or 15 yrs of typical output..

> and not where a generator is used, calculate the cost
> of fuel per KWH in an ICE generator.

Probably very effective for high kW loads. Consider the area of solar
needed for 3kW of output ! Around 30m^2 ( 3,000 sq ft ) and it only works
for 2-5 hours a day !

> >Take an average 4 hours a day of insolation @ 100% ( quite generous )
> >and that translates to 10,000 days or ~ 30 years !
> >That's a truly bad investment.
> >Graham
>
> Not really, how can "free" be a bad investment,
> if it pays for itself in fuel or grid cost savings, then
> it is the same as getting it or free.

It's not *free* though.

At the very least it costs the interest in the installation cost.

There is also maintenance to consider and the damn things eventually get
less efficient.

Graham

Eeyore

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Oct 27, 2006, 6:39:37 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

Depends where.

Where most ppl would want to live, I'll bet on wind.

Graham

Anthony Matonak

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Oct 27, 2006, 6:44:09 AM10/27/06

to

Joe Fischer wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:44:07 +0100, Eeyore wrote:
>>So it would take ~ 40,000 hrs of producing electricity to pay back the
>>originakl investment assuming zero interest on the installation.
>
> Not where grid electricity is 20 cents or more,
> and not where a generator is used, calculate the cost
> of fuel per KWH in an ICE generator.

Perhaps we could try to predict the future electricity prices by
looking at past price increases. I found some info here...
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/california.pdf

They list the average residential price per kwh for years 1990 as
9.98 cent and 2005 as 12.51 cents with a spike in '94 of 12.96 cents.
They also have another webpage which indicates that prices in 2006
are 11.1 percent higher than 2005 due to higher fuel costs.

From that, let's say that we can expect increases in residential
rates of around 5 percent a year, with some years having more and
some less.

How does this change the payback period of a solar PV system?
A simple spreadsheet might calculate the value of the electricity
produced over the 25 year warrantied lifespan of a PV panel.

The PVWatts program shows that a fixed 1kW(STC DC) system in
Los Angeles is estimated to produce 1470 kWh a year. Starting
with a 14 cents/kWh rate and increasing by 5 percent a year
the spreadsheet would look like this...

Year Price kWh Total
01 0.1400 1470 205.80
02 0.1470 1470 216.09
...
25 0.4515 1470 663.73

25 YEAR TOTAL $ 9,822.24

Of course, if they keep increasing rates at 11.1 percent a year
then this will change the total.

Anthony

Eeyore

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Oct 27, 2006, 6:44:17 AM10/27/06

to

Mauried wrote:

Those numbers sound more like the numbers for wind turbines.

I'd reckon about $3.5 bn for 145 MW of solar PV @ 20% insolation.

They're only out by a factor of 50 times !

Graham

no.p...@all.invalid

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Oct 27, 2006, 7:57:31 AM10/27/06

to

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:44:17 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

>Those numbers sound more like the numbers for wind turbines.
>
>I'd reckon about $3.5 bn for 145 MW of solar PV @ 20% insolation.
>
>They're only out by a factor of 50 times !

Solar thermal, driving a turbine. You don't use PV to drive turbines to
generate electricity.

Eeyore

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Oct 27, 2006, 8:19:41 AM10/27/06

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no.p...@all.invalid wrote:

Fair enough.

So what do they do at night ?

Graham

no.p...@all.invalid

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Oct 27, 2006, 9:14:12 AM10/27/06

to

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:19:41 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

>So what do they do at night ?

I haven't read this proposal. Other concentrated solar power
installations use solar thermal to drive the turbines during the day,
and natural gas at night or during extending cloudy periods.

http://www.fplenergy.com/portfolio/solar/solar_plant.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Energy_Generating_Systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_energy

News

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Oct 27, 2006, 10:06:52 AM10/27/06

to

"Don Lancaster" <d...@tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:4qc2onF...@individual.net...

> At present ICE's clearly offer overwhelming superiority to FCV's.
> As conclusively and unquestionably proven by unit sales.

Are you serious when you write this? Or are you having a laugh? Do you
think the punters have a choice?

> The FCV's are clearly falling further and further behind because much more
> money and much smarter engineering is being poured into the ICE.

You do actually believe this don't you?

> Hybrid ICE + Lithium makes infinitely more sense than FCV's for the
> forseeable future. And quite possibly forever.

Wow! Encouraging. After I thought you had totally lost it.

News

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Oct 27, 2006, 10:01:02 AM10/27/06

to

<ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote in message
news:1161882190.0...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Joe Fischer wrote:
>> On Thu, Don Lancaster <d...@tinaja.com> wrote:
> [snip]

>> >Hybrid ICE + Lithium makes infinitely more sense than FCV's for the
>> >forseeable future. And quite possibly forever.
>>

>> Is there some reason the car can't be designed
>> (with the electric motor(s)), without the ICE, and let
>> the customer chose how the electric power is provided?
>
> Only economic. i.e. they won't sell. A car needs an
> energy source and it needs to be rapidly renewable. It
> doesn't have to be an ICE, but right now they work pretty
> well at that aspect. I do suspect that the process we
> are now seeing play out is that batteries will get better,
> folks will seek cheaper ways to "fill" them, and the
> ICE will get less and less use until it is seens as superflous
> and then will be dropped. That final step though is
> probably a very long way off. I suspect we will all be
> driving around in ICE (well, hydrocarbon fueled) vehicles
> for a long time. We may be fortunate enough though to
> only "fuel" them monthly.
>
>> The idea of both an ICE and electric motor
>> connected to the drive train is a kludge.
>
> Actually, no. I used to think the same thing. But
> with current technology, it makes sense. Instead of
> having essentially 2 motors, both capable of powering
> the car, you have have 2 smaller motors, that occasionally
> both need to be used for maximum power. Once batteries
> get good enough, I think you'll see this change. At that
> point the ICE's will get very small and only be used to
> generate power to ensure minimum charge levels.

That prototype Mini does just that right now. They want a better
ICE/Stirling to turn the small genny.

>> Fuel is only renewable from a few sources,
>> while electricity is the truly convertible energy,
>> with very high point of use efficiency.
>
> I think it is generally a mistake to discuss fuel and
> electricity in the same sentence. Electricity is merely
> a delivery mechanism for energy. Fuel is an energy
> storage medium. Gasoline is a very good energy
> storage medium, apart from some pesky waste
> product problems. Batteries are trying to catch up.

True, a gallon of gasoline does store a lot of energy. The problem is in
converting that liquid energy to useful power. That is where it all falls
down.

A battery is a good storage medium for energy and when converted to power is
far more efficient than the ICE mechanisms.

News

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Oct 27, 2006, 10:41:31 AM10/27/06

to

"Mauried" <mau...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:45417074...@news.tpg.com.au...

> If running costs of a car were the
> only concern , there would be a
> world demand for electric cars ,
> and Joe average public would be
> demanding them , but it aint happening.

I can't believe people write this sort of stuff. Down my local dealer I
never saw any EVs for sale at all. I don't have the choice, neither does
anyone else. They are not a mass market product by any means.

Once being produced in their millions EVs will be cheaper to produce as
there are far fewer parts and little maintenance too. The batteries will
take a fair percentage of the total cost. Replacement cost will be no more
than replacing a blown transmission on current ICE cars, even less as when
they are being produced in their multi-millions. Battery costs will be far
lower than today and they will have advanced somewhat too.

The whole of the western world could be on EVs well within 10 years. There
is no reason not to be as the technology is here. All it needs is the mass
production and some extra electricity infrastructure run in here and there.

You smiled, you spoke, and I believed

unread,

Oct 27, 2006, 11:21:28 AM10/27/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:
> ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:
>
>> Don Lancaster wrote:
>>
>>> ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don Lancaster wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Amortized cost has to be included in efficiency calculations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, as soon as you can pump dollars out of the ground,
>>>>>> or turn dimes into joules.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean like an being oil company or paying your power bill?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No like burning nickles, or finding dollars growing on trees.
>>>>
>>>
>>> you mean like buying firewood, or being a lumber company?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nope. Lumber ain't money and you can't burn nickles.
>>
> Tell that to Home Depot.
>
>

I'm with Don on this one.

j.

Don Lancaster

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Oct 27, 2006, 11:37:11 AM10/27/06

to

If fuel cells cannot succeed in the laptop market where users are
willing to pay ten times the cost for one tenth the energy density,
there is no way in hell they will succeed in automotive apps.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf for an analysis.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: d...@tinaja.com

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Eeyore

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Oct 27, 2006, 12:11:12 PM10/27/06

to

News wrote:

> Once being produced in their millions EVs will be cheaper to produce as
> there are far fewer parts and little maintenance too. The batteries will
> take a fair percentage of the total cost. Replacement cost will be no more
> than replacing a blown transmission on current ICE cars, even less as when
> they are being produced in their multi-millions. Battery costs will be far
> lower than today and they will have advanced somewhat too.

You're living in a fantasy world.

Graham

ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com

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Oct 27, 2006, 12:30:10 PM10/27/06

to

Don Lancaster wrote:
> ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com wrote:

[snip]

> > Nope. Lumber ain't money and you can't burn nickles.
> >
> Tell that to Home Depot.

No problem. Home Depot is under no illusions that one
can convert lumber into dollar bills, or that one can burn
nickles to produce heat. One can EXCHANGE them
but they are not convertible. And with finite resources,
that can be important.

Joe Fischer

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Oct 27, 2006, 1:24:03 PM10/27/06

to

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:31:48 GMT, mau...@tpg.com.au (Mauried) wrote:

>>..........

>> Many places solar is more dependable than wind.
>>Joe Fischer
>>
>Its more dependable at doing what it does , but there seems to be a
>colossal lack of understanding.

Only in that thinking PV is all there is.

>The Aust Govt has just announced it will spend some $75 million to
>build the worlds largest "Solar Power Station."
>I put the Solar power station in comma because Id be interested to
>know what most readers think a solar power station is ?

If it is like the concentrating module PV like in
the recent Boeing cell sale images, it might be lower
cost than previously, but would only provide power
while the sun shines.
In an area where A/C is used a lot during the
day only, that would be ok.

>This Solar Power Station will make 145 MW and power some 45000 homes.
>When it was suggested to the Politician making the announcements as to
>what would the homes be powered by at night , he stumbled and coundnt
>come up with any answer, seems he though that Solar Power Stations
>make power all the time.

Most do, they either heat oil or high temperature eutectic
salts or low melting point metal like sodium, and then use
that heat to make steam.

>In this case the Solar Power Station is of the flat mirror type
>reflecting light on a central collector to boil some liquid and drive
>a turbine.

Then it is likely very high temperature, which may
reduce efficiency, but has advantages.
The hot liquid can be stored in insulated tanks, to
provide power later in the day.
It is almost certain that there is an existing grid
it will feed, and peak loads are almost always over
by midnight, so the liquid only needs to stay hot
till then.

>Does anyone have any reliable costs in terms of $ per MW/H generated
>of what these types of stations cost to run and build.
>Unless these sorts of stations are ultra cheap I wouldnt have thought
>that $75 M would get you 145 MW.

That doesn't sound like enough money, but if it
is possible to buy off the shelf items, then maybe the
quantity production is lowering prices.

>Thats only $0.51 cents per watt which is 10 times cheaper than
>conventional solar voltaic.

That sounds more like trough type collectors
with a pipe at the focal point, giving lower temperatures,
but possibly higher efficiency and lower cost mounts
and mirror.

But 51 cents per watt may be a lot cheaper than
a coal fired plant, so maybe there is something not told.

Joe Fischer