Re: Flexible cable for generator backfeed use?
Dale Farmer
Richard wrote:
> I've been using 10/3 romex to go from my generator to the main house panel, but
> it's a pain to coil up and roll out when I need it.
>
> I'm thinking about replacing it with something like welders cable, but since
> that's a fine threaded copper wire, I don't know if I need to go larger or what?
>
> I'm only using about 50'.
>
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
SO 12/3 cable is readily available at anyplace that sells decent extension
cords. fifty feet is good for about 13 amps at 120 volts, without actually
going and looking up the tables. Small generator. May be easier to just
run the extension cable direct to the things you are powering at the time.
--Dale
Vaughn Simon
"Richard" <n...@mail.net> wrote in message
news:53b9g1hi666v0o7gr...@4ax.com...
> I've been using 10/3 romex to go from my generator to the main house
panel, but
> it's a pain to coil up and roll out when I need it.
>
> I'm thinking about replacing it with something like welders cable, but
since
> that's a fine threaded copper wire, I don't know if I need to go larger or
what?
>
> I'm only using about 50'.
>
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
Use #10 SO cable http://www.alphawire.com/pages/312.cfm possibly
available at your local Home Depot.
Caution! Do not use that b@ackfeed word here, there are flamers hiding
in the wings ready to righteously set you straight.
Vaughn
Hank McCall
> I've been using 10/3 romex to go from my generator to the main house panel, but
> it's a pain to coil up and roll out when I need it.
>
> I'm thinking about replacing it with something like welders cable, but since
> that's a fine threaded copper wire, I don't know if I need to go larger or what?
>
> I'm only using about 50'.
>
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
The AWG wire ratings are based on the actual copper area in the cable.
It doesnt matter whether it is fine strands or not.
Dale Farmer
Richard wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:27:32 GMT, Dale Farmer <da...@cybercom.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Richard wrote:
> >
> >> I've been using 10/3 romex to go from my generator to the main house panel, but
> >> it's a pain to coil up and roll out when I need it.
> >>
> >> I'm thinking about replacing it with something like welders cable, but since
> >> that's a fine threaded copper wire, I don't know if I need to go larger or what?
>
> Not an option.
>
> The generator feeds the house and that's how I'm going to use it. I'm
> certainly not going to start moving and unplugging equipment every time we
> lose power.
>
> It's a 240V 30A output on the generator, so that requires #10 solid copper.
>
Wire gauge is measured by the amount of copper cross section. 10 gauge
stranded and ten gauge solid have the same amount of copper in them, the
stranded is just slightly larger in diameter because of the air gaps between
the strands. 10/3 SO cable is readily available at Home Depot. I would
recommend that you upgrade to 8 gauge though, if you are drawing the full
thirty amps, that cable is going to get a bit toasty.
Welding cable used for temporary power applications was disallowed
in a recent edition of the national electrical code. ( Assuming you are in
the US. ) I'm not sure why.
>
> 10 is a very cumbersome wire to roll up and work with, so I'd rather get
> something flexible.
SOrry, I misread the number 10 as 12. THat's what I get for doing email
before the caffiene kicks in.
The correct way to do this is to get one of those generator switch over panels,
that have an L14-30 male connector on them. Then just get the cable, and
a pair of the connectors to make up an extension cord for your generator. You
can also get an external box permanently wired up to the outside with the
L14 connector, so you don't have to run the cable in through a window or
door left open. May have to get a locally licensed electrician to do the work,
modulo your local electrical code. Positive disconnecting means that has
no possibility of connecting your generator to the utility power feed are
often required by law, due to the non-trivial number of utility workers who
got electrocuted by home generators back feeding the street after power
failures.
--Dale
Vaughn
"Dale Farmer" <da...@cybercom.net> wrote in message
news:4304E478...@cybercom.net...
>due to the non-trivial number of utility workers who
> got electrocuted by home generators back feeding the street after power
> failures.
Don't say I didn't warn you Richard! ;-)
Vaughn
Jamey Kirby
welding cables from my battery bank to my inverter. I was using battery
cable before and the wire would get warm when charging at 30 amps AC.
Using the welding cable, I have no detectable heat in the lines to my
battery bank.
I may know nothing about the physics, but I have heard from more than
one person that the more surface area, the better the conductor.
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark [mailto:m...@privacy.net]
Posted At: Thursday, August 18, 2005 1:38 PM
Posted To: alt.energy.homepower
Conversation: Flexible cable for generator backfeed use?
Subject: Re: Flexible cable for generator backfeed use?
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:38:18 -0400, Hank McCall <h.mc...@comcast.net>
wrote:
>Richard wrote:
>> I've been using 10/3 romex to go from my generator to the main house
panel, but
>> it's a pain to coil up and roll out when I need it.
>>
>> I'm thinking about replacing it with something like welders cable,
but since
>> that's a fine threaded copper wire, I don't know if I need to go
larger or what?
>>
>> I'm only using about 50'.
>>
>> Any suggestions are appreciated.
>
>The AWG wire ratings are based on the actual copper area in the cable.
>It doesnt matter whether it is fine strands or not.
That is correct that gauge is gauge. I think the OP is asking if there
is
a different AWG requirement for amperage loads based on if the wire is
solid or stranded.
I do recall something about people who build their own hot-rods and
reloate
their battery to the rear for better traction. They use the same AWG (4
I
believe) welders cable to do this since it's easier and more flexible.
If
they have to crank the car too long for some reason, you risk heating
the
cable too much and weaken the sheathing.
If NEC says gauge is gauge and solid vs. stranded doesn't matter, I
guess
there is no issue.
nospam.c...@sny.der.on.ca
wrote:
>
>
>Richard wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:27:32 GMT, Dale Farmer <da...@cybercom.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Richard wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've been using 10/3 romex to go from my generator to the main house panel, but
>> >> it's a pain to coil up and roll out when I need it.
>> >>
>> >> I'm thinking about replacing it with something like welders cable, but since
>> >> that's a fine threaded copper wire, I don't know if I need to go larger or what?
>>
>> Not an option.
>>
>> The generator feeds the house and that's how I'm going to use it. I'm
>> certainly not going to start moving and unplugging equipment every time we
>> lose power.
>>
>> It's a 240V 30A output on the generator, so that requires #10 solid copper.
>>
>
> Wire gauge is measured by the amount of copper cross section. 10 gauge
>stranded and ten gauge solid have the same amount of copper in them, the
>stranded is just slightly larger in diameter because of the air gaps between
>the strands. 10/3 SO cable is readily available at Home Depot. I would
>recommend that you upgrade to 8 gauge though, if you are drawing the full
>thirty amps, that cable is going to get a bit toasty.
> Welding cable used for temporary power applications was disallowed
>in a recent edition of the national electrical code. ( Assuming you are in
>the US. ) I'm not sure why.
>
Likely because the insulation is designed for lower voltage. (and it
is single conductor)
Michelle P
8 gauge 3 conductor Single Jacket. Flexible good up to 50 or so amps.
Expensive and heavy but well worth it.
Michelle
Richard wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:27:32 GMT, Dale Farmer <da...@cybercom.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>Not an option.
>
>The generator feeds the house and that's how I'm going to use it. I'm
>certainly not going to start moving and unplugging equipment every time we
>lose power.
>
>It's a 240V 30A output on the generator, so that requires #10 solid copper.
>
ba...@sme-online.com
utility workers is not something to be casual about. IMHO.
J
Dave Hinz
Well, (a) it's a valid concern, and (b) that's hardly a flame.
Dave Hinz
> disconnected....
If you never screw up, they'll be fine. Their life is in your hands.
Don't screw up.
> Bottom line is: What I'm doing is 100% legal and safe. End of discussion on
> this "issue".
If you installed a UL listed transfer switch, then you'd be 100% safe.
As it is, you're less than 100% safe. Actually, _you_ are 100% safe,
it's the other person who pays if you blow it.
I stand by my statement that (a) it's a valid concern, and (b) this
isn't a flame.
Vaughn Simon
"Mark" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:h2s9g1l2geh4ok50u...@4ax.com...
>
> I do recall something about people who build their own hot-rods and
reloate
> their battery to the rear for better traction. They use the same AWG (4 I
> believe) welders cable to do this since it's easier and more flexible. If
> they have to crank the car too long for some reason, you risk heating the
> cable too much and weaken the sheathing.
Actually, if you dig into the NEC you will find diffirent ampacities
listed for different cables of the same guage. This is because some types
of insulation can take higher heat without damaege. The NEC is a safety
code. As such, it tends to ignore effiiciency (as well as other mundane
practical matters).
Vaughn
nospam.c...@sny.der.on.ca
<e...@spammenot.tfb.com> wrote:
>More surface area is better; that is what I have heard. I use 4/0
>welding cables from my battery bank to my inverter. I was using battery
>cable before and the wire would get warm when charging at 30 amps AC.
>Using the welding cable, I have no detectable heat in the lines to my
>battery bank.
>
>I may know nothing about the physics, but I have heard from more than
>one person that the more surface area, the better the conductor.
>
>Jamey
This is true in the case of high frequency AC. With DC it is TOTALLY
irrelevent. With 60 hz AC the effect is so minimal as to be almost
impossible to measure.
Me
"Jamey Kirby" <e...@spammenot.tfb.com> wrote:
> More surface area is better; that is what I have heard. I use 4/0
> welding cables from my battery bank to my inverter. I was using battery
> cable before and the wire would get warm when charging at 30 amps AC.
> Using the welding cable, I have no detectable heat in the lines to my
> battery bank.
>
> I may know nothing about the physics, but I have heard from more than
> one person that the more surface area, the better the conductor.
>
> Jamey
Only true for AC Power as AC power runs on the surface of the conductor,
whereas DC Runs thru the total crosssection of the conductor.
Me
Me
Richard <n...@mail.net> wrote:
> Bottom line is: What I'm doing is 100% legal and safe. End of discussion on
> this "issue".
Actually, No, your not 100% Legal, or Safe if you live in a US State
that has adopted the NEC as part of it's State Statutes, as part of
local building codes.........
Me
Jim Baber
>>got electrocuted ..............
>>
I am sure this is one of those city 'legends' we have all heard about.
I suspect the real reason is that the utilities don't want uncontrolled
generators on the grid even when it is operational. As far as
electrocuting utility workers, there would be such a hugh load (the
entire grid) on your generator when it was supplying power to an
otherwise unpowered grid, it will see that load as a dead short circuit
and trip its own circuit breakers. It sure as he... won't be able to
electrocute anybody, but you will burn your generator up if it's circuit
breakers don't function very quickly.
>> ...................by home generators back feeding the street after power
>>failures.
>>
>> --Dale
>>
PCK
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-BFE25B.10...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Tony Wesley
> I am sure this is one of those city 'legends' we have all heard about.
I found the following posted elsewhere. The link no longer returns the
story but it does show the headline.
http://www.nbc13.com/news/4718733/detail.html
Worker Electrocuted In Flomaton By Live Power Line
POSTED: 1:30 pm CDT July 13, 2005
FLOMATON, Ala. -- An electric lineman was killed just before 5 p.m.
Tuesday when he came into contact with a live power line. It was
energized by a generator that was hooked up improperly.
The man -- whose name has not been released -- was transported by
LifeFlight to Jay hospital, where he was pronounced dead.
The man worked for Pike Electric, Inc. in Mount Airy, North Carolina.
Alabama Power spokesman Bernie Fogarty says the company is "Deeply
saddened and distressed by this tragic event."
Alabama authorities say they're looking for the person responsible for
hooking up the generator.
The story can also be found at
See
http://uaelp.pennnet.com/News/Display_News_Story.cfm?Section=WireNews&SubSection=HOME&NewsID=122265
Tony Wesley
> Jim Baber wrote:
> > I am sure this is one of those city 'legends' we have all heard about.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9005.html
Lineman Dies When He Contacts Energized Power Line in Puerto Rico
SUMMARY
A construction crew consisting of a supervisor, three class A linemen
(including the victim), a first class lineman, a groundman, and two
truck drivers were assigned the task of correcting a malfunction in a
de-energized three-phase powerline. When the crew arrived at the
worksite, they found that one of the three phases had broken and fallen
to the ground. The supervisor instructed the victim to relocate the
damaged phase on the crossarm of the pole to better balance the load on
the crossarm. As the victim began to climb the pole he was assured by
the supervisor that the powerlines had been de-energized. When he
attempted to relocate the damaged line he contacted another phase, was
shocked, and slumped backwards, prevented from falling by his safety
belt. The powerlines at the worksite had been energized by backfeed
electrical energy from a portable gas generator being used on the
circuit.
Tony Wesley
> On 19 Aug 2005 16:32:41 GMT, Dave Hinz <Dave...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:23:25 -0400, Richard <n...@mail.net> wrote:
> >> [snip, except for last sentence] End of discussion on
> >> this "issue".
> >If you installed a UL listed transfer switch, then you'd be 100% safe.
> >As it is, you're less than 100% safe. Actually, _you_ are 100% safe,
> >it's the other person who pays if you blow it.
> >
> >I stand by my statement that (a) it's a valid concern, and (b) this
> >isn't a flame.
> Re-read my very last sentence. You seem to have a comprehension problem.
Richard, this is usenet. Unless you're the moderator in a moderated
newsgroup, you can't close the discussion on a topic.
Solar Flare
In our world, in N. America, the guy was challenging death throughj
ignorance and would be expected sometime in his career to die on the job,
with that attitude.
Linemen would never work on an isolated line without treating it as alive.
This would not be performed. Period!
"Deenergized" or "dead" means "grounded" or at the same potential as his
feet, hands, and the rest of his body. Portable / hand grounds would have
been applied on each side of his work zone, on the conductor where they are
visible at all times. If he was caught doing otherwise he could be charged
with violating safe working practices and this may result in his having a
criminal record for the rest of his life. The foreman, supervisor and
manager would all be charged as well and somebody would likely spend time in
prison for it as well as 100,000s dollars in personal and company fines.
The point is completely moot (if there was one) You may as well tell us
about the children playing on the edge of the cliff and one falling off.
"Tony Wesley" <tonyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124516215.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Solar Flare
for this process.
"Tony Wesley" <tonyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124514604....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tony Wesley
[...]
> The point is completely moot (if there was one) You may as well tell us
> about the children playing on the edge of the cliff and one falling off.
Here's the point:
> > > Jim Baber wrote:
> > > > I am sure this is one of those city 'legends' we have all heard about.
And I show that it's not just an urban legend.
Me
Jim Baber <j...@baber.org> wrote:
> I am sure this is one of those city 'legends' we have all heard about.
> I suspect the real reason is that the utilities don't want uncontrolled
> generators on the grid even when it is operational. As far as
> electrocuting utility workers, there would be such a hugh load (the
> entire grid) on your generator when it was supplying power to an
> otherwise unpowered grid, it will see that load as a dead short circuit
> and trip its own circuit breakers. It sure as he... won't be able to
> electrocute anybody, but you will burn your generator up if it's circuit
> breakers don't function very quickly.
Your Statement is nothing more than a "Load of Crap".... It is obvious
that you have never worked in Electrical Power and Distribution. Yes,
the small genset will blow it's breakers, when trying to feed an
"Infinite Looking Load", BUT the Power Transiant that that little genset
can send down the line, who's voltage is builtup at each transformer it
passes thru, can and will zap anyone handling the distribution system
between that small genset and the first open Distribution Switch. Yes,
all linemen will have Safety Shorting Straps across at both ends of
section that is under repair, BUT the Instantainious Transiant still
can, and sometime does "Ring" thru a Safety Shorting Strap. That's why
HotSticks were invented...after these types of accidents were
encountered. It isn't his genset that anyone really cares about, it is
the safety of those guys out on the "Line", trying to restore power to
the hundreds and thousands of customers, who don't have little gensets
in the gardge.
Me been there, done that, been zapped, and live to
tell about it....
Me
"Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In our world, in N. America, the guy was challenging death throughj
> ignorance and would be expected sometime in his career to die on the job,
> with that attitude.
>
> Linemen would never work on an isolated line without treating it as alive.
> This would not be performed. Period!
>
> "Deenergized" or "dead" means "grounded" or at the same potential as his
> feet, hands, and the rest of his body. Portable / hand grounds would have
> been applied on each side of his work zone, on the conductor where they are
> visible at all times. If he was caught doing otherwise he could be charged
> with violating safe working practices and this may result in his having a
> criminal record for the rest of his life. The foreman, supervisor and
> manager would all be charged as well and somebody would likely spend time in
> prison for it as well as 100,000s dollars in personal and company fines.
>
> The point is completely moot (if there was one) You may as well tell us
> about the children playing on the edge of the cliff and one falling off.
No....the point is... that First, The genset shouldn't have been there
running, in the first place.....Second, the Supervisor should have
insisted that Safety Shorting Straps be placed at both ends of the
system, before any Relocation take place....and Third, the Lineman
should have refused to mess with the wires untill the Safety shorting
Straps were in place.
Had the Lineman istalled the Safety Shorting Straps as he was supposed
to, he would have seen the sparks fly and the whole crew would have gone
looking for the IDIOT, running the genset, and punched his lights
out........
Me been there, done that. been zapped, and lived
to tell the story...
tim
news:Me-95A369.10...@netnews.worldnet.att.net:
I think the poster is more talking about the more surface area, the
better the thermal radiation characteristics, and the cooler the
wire will operate for a given load. BTW, skin effect only really
begins to operate at RF frequencies.
Solar Flare
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-135CD9.13...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Solar Flare
and insght need to be applied on Equipotentila grounding to avoid radial
ground step potential gradients.
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-01CAC6.13...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Derek Broughton
> Please explain to me how I can zap a utility worker with the main
> disconnected....
>
> Bottom line is: What I'm doing is 100% legal and safe. End of discussion
> on this "issue".
LOL. You can't end a discussion that way on usenet. "Bottom Line", unless
I missed a post somewhere, is that it's only safe because _your_ procedures
make it so. There doesn't appear to be any switch in the system that makes
it _only_ possible for your generator to feed the house when the house is
off the grid. As far as your utility is concerned, that isn't safe enough.
How do you guarantee that nobody else connects your generator to the house?
I had _no_ intention of writing any flames over this, until you demonstrated
that you don't seem to understand the safety issue.
--
derek
Derek Broughton
> I ontario Canada there would be prison terms for the management
> responsible for this process.
>
Please stop top posting.
Of course there should be consequences for the idiots who violate procedure,
but that doesn't alter the fact that generators _can_ backfeed, and the
people who are at risk aren't necessarily the linemen. Consider the
possibility of a line dangling but not actually grounded (probably unlikely
- they tend to snap well between the poles, and both ends ground, but still
possible). That line is then a danger to _anybody_ if it's being fed from
a local generator, and the average person is clearly not sensible enough to
stay away.
--
derek
Derek Broughton
> nospam.c...@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>
>>>modulo your local electrical code. Positive disconnecting means that has
>>>no possibility of connecting your generator to the utility power feed are
>>>often required by law, due to the non-trivial number of utility workers
>>>who got electrocuted ..............
>>>
> I am sure this is one of those city 'legends' we have all heard about.
It really depends on your definition of electrocution :-) After the ice
storm that hit Ontario & Quebec a few years back, a number of linemen were
supposedly "shocked" by "dead" lines, because they were working in farming
areas where practically every barn had an improperly installed generator.
afaik, nobody was ever hurt, let alone electrocuted. Presumably if they'd
been working right in the vicinity of said barn, they could have been
electrocuted, but that would have meant they had to ignore all proper
procedure _and_ the fact that they could see lights and hear a generator!
> I suspect the real reason is that the utilities don't want uncontrolled
> generators on the grid even when it is operational.
Methinks so too.
> As far as
> electrocuting utility workers, there would be such a hugh load (the
> entire grid) on your generator when it was supplying power to an
> otherwise unpowered grid, it will see that load as a dead short circuit
The whole point, of course, is that it wouldn't be supplying the grid - only
up to the first break. I don't know how far you could go before that would
look like a short to your generator, but after Hurricane Juan, one friend
had three breaks in the 14 pole run from the road to his house - he could
easily have had his generator running out of sight and sound from the
linemen who fixed it.
--
derek
Solar Flare
Nobody is worried about the line snapping and dangling on the ground with
some tingle voltage from a backfeeding generator. Most people are worried
about the ground gradient step potential from a 28kV line sourced by a
200MVA transformer power source that is crystalizing the soil as it burns
it's way back to the next pole. The water meters and home grounding sytemes
are popping and houses are bursting into flames dues to "sinking" the fault
through their own wiring.
You are getting into double contingency here and good engineering people
have to discount the whole thing as rubbish. The backfeed story is just
that. a story made up to give simple reason that Joe Public can understand.
"Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:voamt2-...@othello.pointerstop.ca...
Solar Flare
and have never heard of one incident as such.
You are stating that some farmer is smart enough to size and buy a
generator, hook it up and feed his equipment properly but doesn't know
enough to open his switch not to feed all the other farms on the circuit
after the circuit interuption? Buloney!
"Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:kdamt2-...@othello.pointerstop.ca...
Me
"Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Then your "safety shorting straps were not placed correctly. More training
> and insght need to be applied on Equipotentila grounding to avoid radial
> ground step potential gradients.
and another IDIOT, spews drivel, he has no knowledge of......
Me
Solar Flare
and everybody recognizes you for it?
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-F5F103.10...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Dale Farmer
Solar Flare wrote:
> I know of many, many people that particpated in the Ice Storm you refer to
> and have never heard of one incident as such.
>
> You are stating that some farmer is smart enough to size and buy a
> generator, hook it up and feed his equipment properly but doesn't know
> enough to open his switch not to feed all the other farms on the circuit
> after the circuit interuption? Buloney!
Your hypothetical farmer is going to forget to open the switch some
amount of the times that the generator is needed. Granted that in some
of the cases, the generator bogging down due to all the other farms that
are isolated with the farm in a circuit segment will bring the mistake to
notice. But out away from the city, where you have only one house
or farm being fed by a line of poles, if the break is on that run, there is
no other load out there to bring them to the notice of the farmer. There
is also the case where Joe the farmer doesn't have a good grasp on
electricity, and the thing was rigged up by his good buddy Ed from
down the street who does. Ed is very unlikely to forget to disconnect
the main switch, Joe on the other hand, can't quite remember how to do
it, and the phone is out too, so he can't get Ed to remind him how.
Very small chance for one given location to back feed the grid. But
when you multiply that chance by tens or hundreds of thousands of
customers, then it becomes rather a high likelyhood.
--Dale
Solar Flare
mandatory anywhere I have heard.
Maybe generator owners will shoot somebody with a gun too. Ban generators
and maybe the shooting will stop??
"Dale Farmer" <da...@cybercom.net> wrote in message
news:430905AF...@cybercom.net...
Derek Broughton
> Solar Flare wrote:
>
>> I know of many, many people that particpated in the Ice Storm you refer
>> to and have never heard of one incident as such.
>>
>> You are stating that some farmer is smart enough to size and buy a
>> generator, hook it up and feed his equipment properly but doesn't know
>> enough to open his switch not to feed all the other farms on the circuit
>> after the circuit interuption? Buloney!
>
> Your hypothetical farmer is going to forget to open the switch some
> amount of the times that the generator is needed. Granted that in some
> of the cases, the generator bogging down due to all the other farms that
> are isolated with the farm in a circuit segment will bring the mistake to
> notice. But out away from the city, where you have only one house
> or farm being fed by a line of poles, if the break is on that run, there
Absolutely. In any case, I don't much care if the story was true (I didn't
say it was - just that that was what the _utilities_ had claimed), the fact
that it is being propagated _by_ the utilities takes it out of the realm of
urban myth. It might simply be propaganda, but it isn't myth.
In any case despite Flare's stupid insistence that anyone who does suffer
from such backfeed deserves what they get, it's clearly _possible_ and
that's why we have safety regulations.
--
derek
Derek Broughton
> Please stop trolling
<plonk>
--
derek
Dave Hinz
> Please stop trolling
He's not trolling, he's telling you how you're wrong.
> Nobody is worried about the line snapping and dangling on the ground with
> some tingle voltage from a backfeeding generator.
Except for the guy whose job is to fix that line.
> You are getting into double contingency here and good engineering people
> have to discount the whole thing as rubbish. The backfeed story is just
> that. a story made up to give simple reason that Joe Public can understand.
So you have discredited the two or more links posted here as urban
legends? Can you show your evidence for such a dismissal?
Oh, and please stop top-posting. It fucks up the flow of the
conversation.
Me
"Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you should take some training before you become a complete asshole
> and everybody recognizes you for it?
Worked in the field for a lot of years......Tell us all how many years
you have in the Power Distribution Biz?...... Just another "Wanna Be"
spewing drivel....
Me
daestrom
Our utility, NationalGrid (formerly NiagaraMohawk) has a 'little' trailer of
a mockup of a couple of poles and typical service entrance they use for
training various volunteer fire departments, rescue squads and such. They
come to your parking lot, set things up, have a *real* line crew go through
all the safety precautions and stuff.
Then they show the fireman how a fireman's 'rubber' boot is absolutely
*useless* for electrical protection by drawing a 4160 arc thru it to ground.
They put a live line across a 'car' (and old klunker they bring with them)
and show the arc when they attempt to ground the frame so rescue squads can
understand the risks of touching a car trapped by a live line.
And one little part of the demonstration is a little 3000 watt homelite
portable generator fed into the 'residential service' panel. They
disconnect the normal supply, and with just this little portable unit
running, supplying a couple of light-bulbs in the 'service panel', and
backfeeding to the 'pole pig' and such. Then they proceed to use a hot
stick to try and connect a ground clamp on the 4160 line. As you might
expect, the 'arc and sparks' are impressive (when seen from a distance).
The lineman was able to draw a couple of feet long arc and sustain it for
almost 30 seconds while the generator just buzzed along.
Depending where a break is, and the surrounding T&D lines, a 'little
portable generator' can be quite a hazard. And all it takes is one screw up
and the homeowner will find themselves paying lawyers for years. That's why
the NEC and CEC require the types of disconnects they do.
daestrom
Solar Flare
"Dave Hinz" <Dave...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:3mubr1F...@individual.net...
Solar Flare
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-3EBED3.11...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Solar Flare
I guess the thread has now degenerated into a trolling match again. The
insults and maturity level shows one more time here.
"Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
news:utuot2-...@othello.pointerstop.ca...
Nick Hull
Richard <n...@mail.net> wrote:
> Not an option.
>
> The generator feeds the house and that's how I'm going to use it. I'm
> certainly not going to start moving and unplugging equipment every time we
> lose power.
>
> It's a 240V 30A output on the generator, so that requires #10 solid copper.
>
> 10 is a very cumbersome wire to roll up and work with, so I'd rather get
> something flexible.
Why roll it up at all? I use a seni-permanent #10 solid and leave it
plugged into a dummy socket right next to the one I use for xxxxfeed.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
nospam.c...@sny.der.on.ca
wrote:
>In article <0ik9g1t7rn2rcir4n...@4ax.com>,
> Richard <n...@mail.net> wrote:
>
>> Not an option.
>>
>> The generator feeds the house and that's how I'm going to use it. I'm
>> certainly not going to start moving and unplugging equipment every time we
>> lose power.
>>
>> It's a 240V 30A output on the generator, so that requires #10 solid copper.
>>
>> 10 is a very cumbersome wire to roll up and work with, so I'd rather get
>> something flexible.
>
>Why roll it up at all? I use a seni-permanent #10 solid and leave it
>plugged into a dummy socket right next to the one I use for xxxxfeed.
If you were using a fused, rather than breaker main panel you could
connect the generator semi-permanently, and have 2 main switches -
using the same fuse cartridge, Pull the fuse from the main, and
install in the gen panel. As long as there are no spare fuses floating
atound, you are failsafe.
I only feed 2 circuits in my panel, and they backfeed through a fuse
block that gets moved from the main panel to the sub. The fuse block
when removed from the main panel isolates those circuits from the
line", and when plugged into the sub panel, connects them to the
generator. When on "line" they are on opposite sides of the line -
when on the generator(110 only) they are tied together.
Dave Hinz
> LOL! This is usenet. You can't tell others what to do.
You're right, of course, but idiots who insist on doing things that are
antisocial and arrogant end up getting ignored.
> Sound familiar, you dolt?
Amazing. Unsafe, _and_ antisocial.
> By the way, my cables are all made up and working great. I thank those who
> actually provided help rather than getting on their soapbox.
Hope to hell you never kill someone with your backfeed setup, because
this thread will look pretty damn bad to a judge and jury in your trial.
> Ran the house for about 4 hours over the weekend just to see how it
> performed. Perfectly, as expected.
> Oh, and as an added bonus, I didn't fry any linemen. I know this may
> dissapoint some of you who actually believe this is an every day
> phenomenon.
Nobody said that.
> Bring on the storms. I'm ready.
Don't fuck up. Oh, and <plonk>, top-poster.
Me
"Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 33
>
> "Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
> news:Me-3EBED3.11...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> > In article <BOadnbCX87Y...@golden.net>,
> > "Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps you should take some training before you become a complete
> asshole
> > > and everybody recognizes you for it?
> >
> > Worked in the field for a lot of years......Tell us all how many years
> > you have in the Power Distribution Biz?...... Just another "Wanna Be"
> > spewing drivel....
> >
> >
> > Me
>
>
Then you should know better......and if you don't, it must be
a BrainFart.....
Me
Derek Broughton
> LOL! This is usenet. You can't tell others what to do.
>
>>Please stop top posting.
Asshole. That was a polite request.
<plonk>
--
derek
Dave Hinz
Yup, but we didn't tell him what to do....he can talk to himself now.
Solar Flare
training.
You haven't been taught about equipotential grounding techniques yet? I have
been teaching it here for 10-15 years.
Seems like your little "I am bigger than you" are backfired there?
LOL
"Me" <M...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:Me-374A99.10...@netnews.att.net...
Solar Flare
installed without a switch ahead of them. Standard wiring rules.
<nospam.c...@sny.der.on.ca> wrote in message
news:cqnmg1dj56cscpvhc...@4ax.com...
nospam.c...@sny.der.on.ca
wrote:
>Switches are still required. Fuses are not load-break devices and not to be
>installed without a switch ahead of them. Standard wiring rules.
>
I KNOW it is not to code, but as there are no spare pull-outs, it is
ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to connect it to backfeed. You would have to pull
another fuse block - one that is not designed to be easily pulled.
It is not just a fuse being pulled - it is a fuse holder block
(disconnect for 220 circuit)
Dave Hinz
> I KNOW it is not to code, but as there are no spare pull-outs, it is
> ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to connect it to backfeed. You would have to pull
> another fuse block - one that is not designed to be easily pulled.
Almost impossible, perhaps. It's not your life in the balance though,
is it. What's the big freaking deal about spending a few bucks to make
it safe, legal, and to code? I'd rather drop a bit of cash and not
have to risk killing someone.
Vaughn
I am actually part of the choir here, but still...please don't preach. We
have been over this ground a million times.
Actually, as I recall, the single pullout with two possible postions was
once a perfectly accepted method of power transfer...may still be.
Vaughn
>
Dave Hinz
> On 23 Aug 2005 17:49:39 GMT, Dave Hinz <Dave...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:46:22 -0400, Richard <n...@mail.net> wrote:
>>> LOL! This is usenet. You can't tell others what to do.
>>
>>You're right, of course, but idiots who insist on doing things that are
>>antisocial
> Don't tell my neighbors that. They love my generator too. I have enough
> juice to run them a line.
>>and arrogant
> Talk about goddamned hypocrisy with an asshole statement like that!!
Yawn.
>>> Sound familiar, you dolt?
>>
>>Amazing. Unsafe,
> Only to the uneducated and simple minded such as yourself. I understand
> your need to lash out about things you haven't the slightest comprehension
> about.
It has the potential to kill someone, because you're being stubborn and
cheap.
>>> By the way, my cables are all made up and working great. I thank those who
>>> actually provided help rather than getting on their soapbox.
>
>>Hope to hell you never kill someone with your backfeed setup,
>
> Believe it or not, there are people out there who actually have a clue.
> Clearly, you are not one or you wouldn't have your panties in such a bunch.
There's undie bundelage going on here, sparky, but it's not on this end
of the conversation.
>>> Ran the house for about 4 hours over the weekend just to see how it
>>> performed. Perfectly, as expected.
>>
>>> Oh, and as an added bonus, I didn't fry any linemen. I know this may
>>> dissapoint some of you who actually believe this is an every day
>>> phenomenon.
>>
>>Nobody said that.
> Welcome to the thread. Obviously you haven't read shit in it or you
> wouldn't have made such stupid comment. Well, this wasn't your first.
Yawn again.
> I enjoy fucking with mental midgets like you. I'll keep playing with your
> stupidity all day if you like.
Sorry, you'll have to find someone else to waste their time on you.
Good luck at your trial, and I hope the prosecutor finds this thread to
show it was knowing, willing disregard for human safety.
<plonk>
RF Dude
Some appear contradictory. And when valid feedback is provided, albeit
sometimes not with a full explaination, there are interesting responses from
Richard.
It is exactly that attitude that wins Darwin awards or gets you sued if you
caused someone else grief. The b-a-c-k-f-e-e-d issue is real. Even
normally intelligent people forget to open the mains disconnect in a power
failure when trying to feed their house thru a 30A dryer plug or equivalent.
Thats why the electrical code requires a physical interlock to ensure that
when the your generator is supplying power, the utility feed is
disconnected.
RFdude
"Richard" <n...@mail.net> wrote in message
>>> I've been using 10/3 romex to go from my generator to the main house
>>panel, but it's a pain to coil up and roll out when I need it.
>The generator feeds the house and that's how I'm going to use it. I'm
>certainly not going to start moving and unplugging equipment every time we
>lose power.
> Please explain to me how I can zap a utility worker with the main
disconnected....
>Bottom line is: What I'm doing is 100% legal and safe. End of discussion
>on
>this "issue".
> *shrug* Let them flame/complain/correct/whatever. I know what I'm doing
> is safe and I'm going to continue to use it this way.
daestrom
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:55:28 -0400, "RF Dude" <po...@thisnewsgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I clipped the comments out of Richard's messages and pasted them below.
>>Some appear contradictory. And when valid feedback is provided, albeit
>>sometimes not with a full explaination, there are interesting responses
>>from
>>Richard.
>
>
> 1) I have a generator.
> 2) I b-a-c-k-f-e-e-d my main panel with it.
> 3) It's SAFE
> 4) Nobody can or will get fried down the line.
>
> Simple enough for ya? Probably not.
You forgot number 5
5) It's illegal, but you don't care.
daestrom
Solar Flare
Dave is having a rough........ummm life
LOL
"Vaughn" <vaughnsimo...@att.fake.net> wrote in message
news:ihQOe.662115$cg1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Solar Flare
linemen, So it cannot happen.
So somebody has an illegal hookup and a linemen does an illegal job action.
Takes two to tango. Who loses?
"RF Dude" <po...@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote in message
news:e4wNe.13517$7R.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
RF Dude
everyone.
I have shit on my brains....and I do generators for a living... so the shit
that is on my brain certainly ain't on Richards... and he keeps proving it
to the group.
I'll tell my clients that "Richard" said it was SAFE, so they shouldn't have
a problem with this approach. I'll tell that to the electrical inspector
too. I'll even show them your email for proof and ask the inspector if it
is "Simple enough for ya". I'll try that line on the HR representative who
will be the next to want to talk to me. Then the HR rep will ask me who is
accountable? Who is "Richard"? Lets hire Richard.
Richard, stop trolling for answers when you already have them made up in
your mind.
Enough said. You can repeat what you have already stated which you are
likely to do... and think of a few more names to call others.... You
probably have the same attitude with others... police, doctors... what do
they know... Richard knows best. Have fun with your generator. And I'll
have fun with the hundreds I look after.
"Richard" <n...@mail.net> wrote in message
Solar Flare
"RF Dude" <po...@thisnewsgroup.com> wrote in message
news:a1SPe.3218$Rc.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Dale Farmer
daestrom wrote:
> "Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote in message
> news:utuot2-...@othello.pointerstop.ca...
> > Dale Farmer wrote:
> >
> >> Solar Flare wrote:
> >>
> >>> I know of many, many people that particpated in the Ice Storm you refer
> >>> to and have never heard of one incident as such.
> >>>
> >>> You are stating that some farmer is smart enough to size and buy a
> >>> generator, hook it up and feed his equipment properly but doesn't know
> >>> enough to open his switch not to feed all the other farms on the circuit
> >>> after the circuit interuption? Buloney!
> >>
> >> Your hypothetical farmer is going to forget to open the switch some
> >> amount of the times that the generator is needed. Granted that in some
> >> of the cases, the generator bogging down due to all the other farms that
> >> are isolated with the farm in a circuit segment will bring the mistake to
> >> notice. But out away from the city, where you have only one house
> >> or farm being fed by a line of poles, if the break is on that run, there
> >
> > Absolutely. In any case, I don't much care if the story was true (I
> > didn't
> > say it was - just that that was what the _utilities_ had claimed), the
> > fact
> > that it is being propagated _by_ the utilities takes it out of the realm
> > of
> > urban myth. It might simply be propaganda, but it isn't myth.
> >
> > In any case despite Flare's stupid insistence that anyone who does suffer
> > from such backfeed deserves what they get, it's clearly _possible_ and
> > that's why we have safety regulations.
> > --
>
> Our utility, NationalGrid (formerly NiagaraMohawk) has a 'little' trailer of
> a mockup of a couple of poles and typical service entrance they use for
> training various volunteer fire departments, rescue squads and such. They
> come to your parking lot, set things up, have a *real* line crew go through
> all the safety precautions and stuff.
>
> Then they show the fireman how a fireman's 'rubber' boot is absolutely
> *useless* for electrical protection by drawing a 4160 arc thru it to ground.
> They put a live line across a 'car' (and old klunker they bring with them)
> and show the arc when they attempt to ground the frame so rescue squads can
> understand the risks of touching a car trapped by a live line.
>
> And one little part of the demonstration is a little 3000 watt homelite
> portable generator fed into the 'residential service' panel. They
> disconnect the normal supply, and with just this little portable unit
> running, supplying a couple of light-bulbs in the 'service panel', and
> backfeeding to the 'pole pig' and such. Then they proceed to use a hot
> stick to try and connect a ground clamp on the 4160 line. As you might
> expect, the 'arc and sparks' are impressive (when seen from a distance).
> The lineman was able to draw a couple of feet long arc and sustain it for
> almost 30 seconds while the generator just buzzed along.
>
> Depending where a break is, and the surrounding T&D lines, a 'little
> portable generator' can be quite a hazard. And all it takes is one screw up
> and the homeowner will find themselves paying lawyers for years. That's why
> the NEC and CEC require the types of disconnects they do.
>
> daestrom
I think that the solution for these is to prosecute the illegal generator
users for murder and sending them to jail for a bunch of years. It wasn't
an accident, they knowingly and negligently hooked up the thing.
--Dale
daestrom
"Dale Farmer" <da...@cybercom.net> wrote in message
news:43161339...@cybercom.net...
Only a couple of problems here. Chances are good that it wouldn't be a
lineman that is killed, but rather someone else. And if that someone dies
from electrocution from a downed power line, hard to prove whether it was
utility electrons, or home-generator electrons. Then prove that the
arrogant home-generator owner *knew* he had violated code, with total
disregard for the safety of others. Get that far, and you've got a case
(for manslaughter??)
daestrom
Solar Flare
accident and still knowing continued to power the vehicle.
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jHpRe.48503$EX.4...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
daestrom
"Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4M-dnZ2dnZ2ZsTKfnZ2dn...@golden.net...
> Everybody driving a car fits that same bill. They knew they could cause an
> accident and still knowing continued to power the vehicle.
>
Not exactly. Driving a car is not a flagrant violation of laws enacted to
ensure safety. And driving a car doesn't result in an accident all the
time.
But *if* you have an accident, and *if* its a direct result of willfully
acting in an unsafe manner, and *if* it results in a death, then *yes* you
can be charged with 'vehicular manslaughter'. It does happen on occasion
with a repeat DWI offender that kills someone while driving drunk.
daestrom
Tony Wesley
> "Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4M-dnZ2dnZ2ZsTKfnZ2dn...@golden.net...
> > Everybody driving a car fits that same bill. They knew they could cause an
> > accident and still knowing continued to power the vehicle.
> Not exactly. Driving a car is not a flagrant violation of laws enacted to
> ensure safety. And driving a car doesn't result in an accident all the
> time.
>
> But *if* you have an accident, and *if* its a direct result of willfully
> acting in an unsafe manner, and *if* it results in a death, then *yes* you
> can be charged with 'vehicular manslaughter'.
Or worse. Second-degree murder.
> It does happen on occasion
> with a repeat DWI offender that kills someone while driving drunk.
FARMINGTON HILLS -- A man charged in the May 3 drunken driving incident
that killed a woman and her two sons will stand trial.
Farmington Hills 47th District Court Judge James Brady heard six
witnesses Friday before determining there was probable cause for Thomas
Wellinger, 48, of Farmington Hills to face charges in Oakland Circuit
Court.
A handcuffed Wellinger, who appeared pale and wore a neck brace into
court, is charged with three counts of second-degree murder and
operating under the influence of liquor causing death in the crash that
killed Judith Weinstein, 49, and her sons Alex, 12 and Sam, 9.
...
Dr. Felix Adatsi, a toxicologist with Michigan State Police Forensic
Crime Labs, said Wellinger registered a .43 blood-alcohol level from
blood serum at 4:20 p.m. May 3 and a .32 blood-alcohol level from whole
blood at 7:16 p.m. that same night at the hospital. By 7:05 a.m. the
following day, Wellinger still was recording a .11 blood-alcohol level,
he said.
>From http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0508/26/farm-294494.htm
nospam.c...@sny.der.on.ca
>On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:02:40 GMT, "daestrom"
><daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Solar Flare" <sfl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:4M-dnZ2dnZ2ZsTKfnZ2dn...@golden.net...
>>> Everybody driving a car fits that same bill. They knew they could cause an
>>> accident and still knowing continued to power the vehicle.
>>>
>>
>>Not exactly.
>
>Yes. Exactly.
>
>>Driving a car is not a flagrant violation of laws enacted to
>>ensure safety.
>
>Depends on HOW you drive. Just like it depends on HOW you take precautions
>to insure your generator is correctly connected.
>
>>And driving a car doesn't result in an accident all the
>>time.
>
>Neither does using a generator. Not even close.
>
>As a matter of fact, would you like to compare how many multiples more
>people die from car accidents versus generator accidents?
Matters not ONE IOTA.
It is ILLEGAL in both Canada and the USA to backfeed your panel from a
generator without a positive interlock/lockout - regardless how safe
you may feel it is. Whether you kill someone or not doesn't change
anything.
Driving a car 100 MPH in most places in Canada and the USA is also
illegal - whether you are involved in an accident or not. So is
rolling through a stop sign or running a red light. Driving it at the
speed limit and obeying signals is NOT illegal - and nor is feeding
your panel from a generator WITH A POSITIVE INTERLOCK which prevents
the ouside world from being connected to your genset.
Tony Wesley
> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:02:40 GMT, "daestrom"
> <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
> >ensure safety.
>
> to insure your generator is correctly connected.
Rather funny that you now have conceded that your original points were
wrong. Remember, you claimed "What I'm doing is 100% legal and safe."
So it's not 100% legal and you've tried to change the subject. And now
you state it's not 100% safe. Because as you say, it depends. If it
was 100% safe, you wouldn't need that "it depends".
This follows after you started off by saying "Any suggestions are
appreciated." Then you had a melt-down when you didn't like the
suggestion.
That's 0 for 3.
andre...@yahoo.com
<< snip >>
>
> Guess what? I had the generator running over the weekend for a few hours
> due to a local storm, BACKFEEDING the house nicely.
>
> Once again, nobody got fried.
>
> Care to continue making completely irrelevant "arguments" ?
>
> Go ahead, fool.
How do you 'backfeed' a house?
I can understand backfeeding the grid, or feeding the house. So
backfeeding the house must mean energy was flowing from the house to
the generator.
___________
Andre' B.
Gail Storm
> many linemen as possible. Well, that's what most of the geniuses here
> assume will happen to everyone who uses a generator in this manner.....LOL!
I do not have a generator but in reading the various posts I have a question. If
you backfeed and leave the mains closed wouldn't that destroy the generator when
the power was restored? Just curious, Gail Storm.
Steve Spence
Might pop the breaker on the generator. What the concern is if your
breaker si closed, and a lineman is working on the lines, your generator
is feeding power to the transformer on your pole, and stepping up the
voltage (lowering the amps, as watts is watts). Not likely to do any
damage with the small generators most folks use, but it is a risk.
--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
Vaughn Simon
"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:VGkWe.643$gE7...@fe08.lga...
>
> .... What the concern is if your
> breaker si closed, and a lineman is working on the lines, your generator
> is feeding power to the transformer on your pole, and stepping up the
> voltage (lowering the amps, as watts is watts). Not likely to do any
> damage with the small generators most folks use, but it is a risk.
For a lineman to be hurt from a backfeeding generator, four things must
happen simultaniously:
1) Some idiot runs a generator connected to his house wiring with no proper
transfer switch and with his main breaker still closed. and...
2) Our idiot happens to have an isolated pole transformer that is so lightly
loaded that his generator does not somehow trip. and...
3) There happens to be a line crew working outside our idiot's house.
and...
4) That line crew is ignoring proper procedure and working in a criminally
negligent manner.
I think that #1 and #3 are possible, and #2 and #4 are vanishingly
unlikely. The possibility of all four of the above happening simultaniously
is barely worth our time to discuss...yet we do.
Vaughn
Steve Spence
millisecond disconnect rates in grid tie inverters to prevent this from
happening.
Derek Broughton
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:17:17 GMT, Gail Storm <butspa...@attknotme.net>
> wrote:
>>> And, as everyone knows, make sure you leave the main open so you fry as
>>> many linemen as possible. Well, that's what most of the geniuses here
>>> assume will happen to everyone who uses a generator in this
>>> manner.....LOL!
>
> The above makes no logical sense. Most likely, that person mixed up
> the open and closed state of the breaker.
Not fair, ig. Gail didn't write what you just quoted her as writing.
--
derek
daestrom
The grid-tie inverter dis-connect timing isn't about this particular issue.
It is there to prevent 'islanding' of a small section of grid and the damage
your inverter would see if the grid power came back on while the inverter is
still 'pumping power'. Highly likely that it would not be in phase with the
returning power, and the results could be 'spectacular'. But your inverter
would lose all its 'magic smoke'.
daestrom
Derek Broughton
> For a lineman to be hurt from a backfeeding generator, four things must
> happen simultaniously:
>
> 1) Some idiot runs a generator connected to his house wiring with no
> proper
> transfer switch and with his main breaker still closed. and...
> 2) Our idiot happens to have an isolated pole transformer that is so
> lightly
> loaded that his generator does not somehow trip. and...
> 3) There happens to be a line crew working outside our idiot's house.
> and...
> 4) That line crew is ignoring proper procedure and working in a criminally
> negligent manner.
>
> I think that #1 and #3 are possible, and #2 and #4 are vanishingly
> unlikely. The possibility of all four of the above happening
> simultaniously is barely worth our time to discuss...yet we do.
We keep discussing it because of Murphy's law. Besides which, I don't
believe #2 is vanishingly small. After our local hurricane experience I
drove down a rural road where practically _every_ pole transformer was
isolated. The whole reason it needs discussing is that the rules exist to
try to ensure that #4 never comes into play.
--
derek
Dale Farmer
Vaughn Simon wrote:
ANd it happens often enough that linemen are injured and killed doing
it. ( News articles were cited previously in the thread of such incidents)
Very small possibility indeed. But when you multiply that small possibility
by the hundreds of thousands of downed power lines in the hurricane
affected areas, it's probability gets quite high.
--Dale