Learning the difference
George Ghio
June 15, 2007
The danger of solar power information, and indeed information for any other pursuit, from the web
and/or news groups is a combination of self delusion, self aggrandizement and greed.
SELF DELUSION; This is a big trap for for many people. It works like this, a person decides that he
would like to use solar power. This person has a preconceived idea of solar power based on what they
have been told by someone in a pub, seen on TV or just wishful thinking. It really doesn’t matter
where the info comes from. What matters is that it is, nine times out of ten, utter nonsense. The
problem is that the person wants to believe this information. Why do they want to believe what is
patently rubbish. Well, the main reason is that it suits their idea of how things should work. They
want to believe that all they need is a golf cart battery and a couple of fifteen watt Harbor
Freight panels and they will have free power for life. It’s true, they will believe what makes them
feel good, and the truth will not be allowed to get in the way.
SELF AGGRANDIZEMENT; This often follows on from self delusion. Our person cobbles together a system
that will light his front porch or finds a system design in a magazine that looks wonderful and
copies it. In either case there is no regard for their real needs. No understanding of system design
or their loads what-so-ever. But, all of a sudden they are the undisputed masters of solar design.
Of course they must now share their expertise with anybody and everybody. They put up a web site to
share their considerable knowledge, others look at the site and become self deluded thus starting
down the path to becoming an expert in solar power. It is not long before there are hundreds or
thousands of experts in solar power selling the same golf cart battery and and HF panel fantasy to
other people who want to believe that you can be energy independent for a couple of hundred dollars.
GREED; This is a different beast all together. Usually this type of person starts out as a second
rate automotive - marine - golf cart battery salesman who all of a sudden discovers that there is
money to be made from self deluded wannabes in the solar game. He is usually still selling the same
old batteries but now they are, of course, just as good as the worlds best, at half the price. Just
stick ten or twenty in parallel and Bob’s your uncle. The only person to win is the battery
salesman, he has your money and you have a truck load of manure.
WHAT CAN YOU DO?
Well, you can learn about solar power design. The first thing to learn is that there is no great
magical art involved, just basic math skills and a willingness to accept that solar power is free,
but the equipment required to use it is not.
Second thing to learn is that if the person giving you sage advice can not put a watt hour figure to
every load in their system, it is highly unlikely that they know enough to be giving advice.
Third thing to learn is being able to tell the difference between 1) Look what I did, pat me on the
back, aren’t I a clever little boy, web sites and 2) those that offer real advice, using real
numbers, in a clear and precise way.
Fourth thing is that people who tout that any number of parallel strings of batteries are as good as
a single series string of cells, are totally out of their depth as far as home power systems are
concerned. If there is absolutely no other option then limit the number of parallel strings of
batteries to two.
Fifth, reduce your energy use. If you can’t knock a third off your energy use, you’re just not trying.
Sixth, Don’t come to a forum such as this one and ask:
“I have an average home, how much will solar power cost”.
It only excites the wannabes and starts a barrage of nonsense. If you must ask how much, at the very
least look at your last power bill, work out what you used for a single day and post that number.
But, OTOH, the better thing would be to get copy of a spreadsheet and put your number into it. And
of course the very best would be to do a complete energy audit of everything you want to run and use
the final number in your spreadsheet. A good spreadsheet will tell you how many panels and batteries
you will need in under two minutes. Then you can get on the net and find some prices.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
merlin-7
It may be true that your post is correct in many ways but you leave out a
great many things.
The first one is, many people need to start small and work their way up.
This is not the most cost effective way but It does work.
The way I look at it is, If someone installs a solar system (using golf
cart batteries or whatever) and they use it to run their porch light and
charge their cell phone, so be it. That's a few watts less used by burning
fossil fuels and they are learning.
I have no idea why you think that the HF 45 watt kit is bad...lets look at
it...
You get 2 5 watt cfls, 3 15 watt panels and the mounts for them ( I do hate
the charge controller but it does make a good distribution box) for a very
good price per watt of panels, the other items are just gravy.
As for paralleling batteries, It can be done but requires a lot more time.
Such as, Charging each set of batteries for 1 day a month by itself and
equalizing each set when needed) but it can be done, not the best way to do
it, but It can be done.
Lets look at you George...
Let me say first off that I have learned a good bit from you and am
thankful, that said. I do not understand why you always have negative
comments about people just starting out and the people tying to help them
with their first system. I think that everyone that wants to build their own
system should start out with a small set of panels, a small charge
controller and golfcart batteries or some other cheap battery. That way they
get to learn without investing a butt load of money into something they do
not understand.
George, I am here, to learn and to help others, when I can.
I do not, insult others or look down on anybody. I may make suggestions or
state a fact that I have learned from experience but I never insult.
I made many mistakes with my system but it always preformed the way I
expected it to, correcting the mistakes just improved it.
Some how, I have managed to keep my battery bank up and running for over 2
years with a wild mix of batteries . Two optima yellow tops (sealed) and a
D-4 wet cell. Granted I only have 350 watts of panels (including 3 HF 45
watt kits) I also have to equalize the wet cell once a month or so but It
does work. It is not the best set up, but it does work.
George, do you realize, That if everyone listened to you, no one would ever
try to start a small expandable solar system?
Something to think about...
Joe
As for
"George Ghio" <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4671cd25$0$24006$8826...@free.teranews.com...
George Ghio
> George
> It may be true that your post is correct in many ways but you leave out a
> great many things.
>
> The first one is, many people need to start small and work their way up.
> This is not the most cost effective way but It does work.
Those that want to play with solar can do so. I'm talking about serious design and installation.
>
> The way I look at it is, If someone installs a solar system (using golf
> cart batteries or whatever) and they use it to run their porch light and
> charge their cell phone, so be it. That's a few watts less used by burning
> fossil fuels and they are learning.
Fine by me, except, after they get their porch lit they become an expert. Well, let's face it they
aren't. Not by any stretch if their imagination.
>
> I have no idea why you think that the HF 45 watt kit is bad...lets look at
> it...
> You get 2 5 watt cfls, 3 15 watt panels and the mounts for them ( I do hate
> the charge controller but it does make a good distribution box) for a very
> good price per watt of panels, the other items are just gravy.
15 Watt panels are toys. you buy them for your children to play with and perhaps learn something
>
> As for paralleling batteries, It can be done but requires a lot more time.
> Such as, Charging each set of batteries for 1 day a month by itself and
> equalizing each set when needed) but it can be done, not the best way to do
> it, but It can be done.
Of course it can be done. It is now and has always been and will continue to be the second best option.
>
> Lets look at you George...
>
> Let me say first off that I have learned a good bit from you and am
> thankful, that said. I do not understand why you always have negative
> comments about people just starting out and the people tying to help them
> with their first system. I think that everyone that wants to build their own
> system should start out with a small set of panels, a small charge
> controller and golfcart batteries or some other cheap battery. That way they
> get to learn without investing a butt load of money into something they do
> not understand.
Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is just not that much to learn. Why people want solar
to be so mysterious is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but the
correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it will work.
>
> George, I am here, to learn and to help others, when I can.
Well, I'm sorry. But you help perpetrate the same old myths about batteries and design that do more
harm and cost people more money than if they just learned to use the correct formula.
>
> I do not, insult others or look down on anybody. I may make suggestions or
> state a fact that I have learned from experience but I never insult.
Good, you learned that parallel batteries work, and because they work and you use them you feel free
to tell others that it is a good idea.
>
> I made many mistakes with my system but it always preformed the way I
> expected it to, correcting the mistakes just improved it.
>
> Some how, I have managed to keep my battery bank up and running for over 2
> years with a wild mix of batteries . Two optima yellow tops (sealed) and a
> D-4 wet cell. Granted I only have 350 watts of panels (including 3 HF 45
> watt kits) I also have to equalize the wet cell once a month or so but It
> does work. It is not the best set up, but it does work.
You have built a system. This is not the same as sizing and designing a purpose built system to meet
a required load.
>
> George, do you realize, That if everyone listened to you, no one would ever
> try to start a small expandable solar system?
And a bloody good thing that would be. Small expandable systems are called toys. You are still in
the first category. You want to be right and you want to be seen as possessing knowledge. You lurch
from one poor solution to another with out benefit of an end goal.
Try this;
Do an energy audit that defines your final goal in kWh.
Get a copy of the correct formula or a spreadsheet. I will send you one if you like.
Compare the sized system to what you have now and see if what you have done so far is compatible and
able to be expanded to what you require for a price that is realistic compared to having just built
the system you need.
Something to think about.
Todd
> Fourth thing is that people who tout that any number of parallel strings of batteries are as good as
> a single series string of cells, are totally out of their depth as far as home power systems are
> concerned. If there is absolutely no other option then limit the number of parallel strings of
> batteries to two.
And just what principle are you claiming here?
> Sixth, Don't come to a forum such as this one and ask:
>
> "I have an average home, how much will solar power cost".
>
Why not? Just ask them what their light bill is or take a range of
light bills (say from $100/mo to $500/mo by $100 increments) and show
the PV system cost. You can figure what a PV system would need to be
to supply the same demand.
You need to add one more thing to your list of proponent traits:
ARROGANT SELF-CLAIMED EXPERT AVOIDER. That's the person who wants to
tell you how watches are made before he can tell you he doesn't know
what time it is because you haven't told him enough about your need to
know.
> It only excites the wannabes and starts a barrage of nonsense. If you must ask how much, at the very
> least look at your last power bill, work out what you used for a single day and post that number.
> But, OTOH, the better thing would be to get copy of a spreadsheet and put your number into it. And
> of course the very best would be to do a complete energy audit of everything you want to run and use
> the final number in your spreadsheet. A good spreadsheet will tell you how many panels and batteries
> you will need in under two minutes. Then you can get on the net and find some prices.
Or you could just say "I just did one for a guy who seemed pretty
average to me. He had an 1800sf house in eastern Oregon and it cost
$..... Next question?"
Todd
>
> aren't. Not by any stretch if their imagination.
>
>
And then he says:
>
> Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is just not that much to learn. Why people want solar
> to be so mysterious is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but the
> correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it will work.
What's wrong with this picture?
>
>
> > As for paralleling batteries, It can be done but requires a lot more time.
> > Such as, Charging each set of batteries for 1 day a month by itself and
> > equalizing each set when needed) but it can be done, not the best way to do
> > it, but It can be done.
>
> Of course it can be done. It is now and has always been and will continue to be the second best option.
And the first best option is?
>
> > George, I am here, to learn and to help others, when I can.
>
> Well, I'm sorry. But you help perpetrate the same old myths about batteries and design that do more
> harm and cost people more money than if they just learned to use the correct formula.
And the correct formula is?
>
> Good, you learned that parallel batteries work, and because they work and you use them you feel free
> to tell others that it is a good idea.
And the better alternative is?
>
> You have built a system. This is not the same as sizing and designing a purpose built system to meet
> a required load.
Are we back to: "Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is
just not that much to learn. Why people want solar to be so mysterious
is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but
the correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it
will work." ???
>
> > George, do you realize, That if everyone listened to you, no one would ever
> > try to start a small expandable solar system?
>
> And a bloody good thing that would be. Small expandable systems are called toys.
Of course they are. General Motors and Ford started business making
10,000 cars a day didn't they?
> You are still in
> the first category.
And GM and Ford and George have rendered the first category obsolete.
>
> Try this;
>
> Do an energy audit that defines your final goal in kWh.
This is the ARROGANT AVOIDER EXPERT tactic. Sell the analysis:
Final goal kWh isn't of much use if you don't know the demand pattern.
And I'll bet George's analysis does not reveal that. In fact I bet
nobody's does. I bet they just add a fudge factor to apply to the kWh
and hope for the best. And if they do that they might as well look at
the light bills and back calculate to kWh and do the same thing.
>
> Get a copy of the correct formula or a spreadsheet. I will send you one if you like.
You make a big deal about this formula: Is addition now called a
formula?
>
> Compare the sized system to what you have now and see if what you have done so far is compatible and
> able to be expanded to what you require for a price that is realistic compared to having just built
> the system you need.
>
> Something to think about.
Right ... and we've moved so much closer to the true answer to the
question haven't we?
Anthony Matonak
>> 15 Watt panels are toys. you buy them for your children to play with and perhaps learn something
>
> And then he says:
>> Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is just not that much to learn. Why people want solar
>> to be so mysterious is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but the
>> correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it will work.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?
What's wrong with this is...
You read his post.
You responded to his post.
Anything past that gets lost in the noise.
Just as point of reference, most laptop computers use around 20 watts.
A single 15W panel would be enough to run a laptop a couple of hours a
day (more or less).
One could argue that "Laptops are toys. You buy them for your children
to play with and perhaps learn something." but that would be obviously
wrong.
We could compile an entire list of things you can do with a single 15W
solar panel but what would be the point? It won't make the newsgroup
any better. It'll only place us under attack and feed the trolls.
Anthony
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>We could compile an entire list of things you can do with a single 15W
>solar panel but what would be the point? It won't make the newsgroup
>any better.
Sure it would. I bet a lot of people have seen the HF deal on those
cheap panels and wondered about practical uses. Heck, it doesn't even
need to be truly practical since many readers are looking for the
pleasure and education of doable solar. I still get that rush even
after 13 years of living off-grid. I sometimes stand in the shade of
an array during a break from fabricating, marveling at how cool it is
to be able to do so much a dozen miles from power lines. Same thing
when we're watching a good movie at night, with the turbine controller
dumping power even with a few hundred watts total load.
> It'll only place us under attack and feed the trolls.
One nitwit might complain, but obviously nobody is listening since
there's a steady stream of posters who've ignored his dopey criticisms
and gone ahead successfully with their projects. So if you have any
other ideas feel free to share them. Think of it this way - judging by
my email, some people read these groups *because* of the sturm und
drang. Your ideas might reach additional readers if they're posted in
one of those threads. ;-)
Wayne
merlin-7
He just has a problem with people just starting out in solar.
The way I look at it is.... get a hF 45 watt kit an optima deep cycle
(yellow top) a 4 amp charge controller and a small inverter.
If you do that...you will learn really quick as to what is involved in
larger solar systems without expending a lot of cash.
I ran my 2 meter ham radio and a 5 watt cfl on the above system for 6
months befor I expanded the system. It worked great.
You will learn more by hands on than by anybody telling you what you should
do...
My 2 cents
"Todd" <To...@WithGLEE.com> wrote in message
news:1181920492....@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
George Ghio
>> Those that want to play with solar can do so. I'm talking about serious design and installation.
>>
>> Fine by me, except, after they get their porch lit they become an expert. Well, let's face it they
>> aren't. Not by any stretch if their imagination.
>>
>> 15 Watt panels are toys. you buy them for your children to play with and perhaps learn something
>>
>
> And then he says:
>> Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is just not that much to learn. Why people want solar
>> to be so mysterious is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but the
>> correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it will work.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?
Nothing. It is perfectly true. Anyone can size and design a solar power system.
>
>>
>>> As for paralleling batteries, It can be done but requires a lot more time.
>>> Such as, Charging each set of batteries for 1 day a month by itself and
>>> equalizing each set when needed) but it can be done, not the best way to do
>>> it, but It can be done.
>> Of course it can be done. It is now and has always been and will continue to be the second best option.
>
> And the first best option is?
Single string series.
>
>>> George, I am here, to learn and to help others, when I can.
>> Well, I'm sorry. But you help perpetrate the same old myths about batteries and design that do more
>> harm and cost people more money than if they just learned to use the correct formula.
>
> And the correct formula is?
>
>> Good, you learned that parallel batteries work, and because they work and you use them you feel free
>> to tell others that it is a good idea.
>
> And the better alternative is?
Single string series.
>
>> You have built a system. This is not the same as sizing and designing a purpose built system to meet
>> a required load.
>
> Are we back to: "Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is
> just not that much to learn. Why people want solar to be so mysterious
> is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but
> the correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it
> will work." ???
There is a difference. Wayne built a system.Then kept throwing money at it until it would meet his
energy demand, at least during daylight hours.
The other option is to design to the expected load and build a system that that works to spec from
the moment it is switched on.
>
>>> George, do you realize, That if everyone listened to you, no one would ever
>>> try to start a small expandable solar system?
>> And a bloody good thing that would be. Small expandable systems are called toys.
>
> Of course they are. General Motors and Ford started business making
> 10,000 cars a day didn't they?
Not exactly the same thing but close enough, to increase production it was required that a new
assembly line be built.
>
>> You are still in
>> the first category.
>
> And GM and Ford and George have rendered the first category obsolete.
See above.
>
>> Try this;
>>
>> Do an energy audit that defines your final goal in kWh.
>
> This is the ARROGANT AVOIDER EXPERT tactic. Sell the analysis:
I'm not "selling" anything. It is all free to those who are willing to remove their head from their ass.
>
> Final goal kWh isn't of much use if you don't know the demand pattern.
> And I'll bet George's analysis does not reveal that. In fact I bet
> nobody's does. I bet they just add a fudge factor to apply to the kWh
> and hope for the best. And if they do that they might as well look at
> the light bills and back calculate to kWh and do the same thing.
Crap. The demand pattern is a total nonsense in a well designed system. Over this 24 hour period X
kWh is consumed. If the system has the correct capacity who cares when the load is run.
Except for wayne who must needs do as much while the sun shines as he can.
>
>
>> Get a copy of the correct formula or a spreadsheet. I will send you one if you like.
>
> You make a big deal about this formula: Is addition now called a
> formula?
Well, 1+1 is a formula that yields the answer of 2.
But of course the formula for the sizing of a solar power system is a little bit more involved than
this. I can see that you may require help to understand it, but most people would be able to grasp
the basics in a few minutes.
>
>> Compare the sized system to what you have now and see if what you have done so far is compatible and
>> able to be expanded to what you require for a price that is realistic compared to having just built
>> the system you need.
>>
>> Something to think about.
>
> Right ... and we've moved so much closer to the true answer to the
> question haven't we?
Yes, use the correct formula to workout your required load in kWh at the beginning and use only
equipment that fits to the final solution and be prepared to dispose of a large part of this
equipment in the process of growing a system.
Far cheaper to just design and build the required system.
George Ghio
--
z
> merlin-7 wrote:
>> George
>> It may be true that your post is correct in many ways but you leave
>> out a
>> great many things.
>>
>> The first one is, many people need to start small and work their way
>> up.
>> This is not the most cost effective way but It does work.
>
> Those that want to play with solar can do so. I'm talking about
> serious design and installation.
>>
Some people have no choice. I am probably 10 miles from the nearest
power line and i'm not loaded with cash to drop 10k+ on solar. I'm
adding to my system as I can afford to do so, and each addition lets me
run more stuff. Its easy to say 'build a perfect system first' but holy
crap.. spendy. I make my own panels from cells and add better/more
batteries as I can.
The real key is the hydro-electric setup hopefully going live once the
rains start after this summer. Then we'll have enough juice to run
anything! Screw solar in the winter man.
-z
philkryder
George -
Help me to understand a bit better.
Suppose that I minimize my load and that I then carefully size my
installation.
Let's for example say that I need 70 kwh of capacity.
Suppose that I then obtain and install a single series string of
batteries to provide that capacity.
And, further suppose that I obtain the 8000watt of inverters needed
to meet the max instantaneous load with a reasonable "fudge factor"
for head room and motor start loads.
Suppose further that after a couple of years of successful operation
that "things change." New processes are added.
And, that I then need more capacity - suppose I need 100kwh capacity
and 10000 watts peak from my inverters.
Can I easily add additional batteries in series to reach the new
100kwh capacity?
Or, must I go to a new battery size for the entire installation?
What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
series string?
Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
so, what is it?
What do I do when my capacity needs cause the single string to exceed
the input voltage specs of the inverters?
Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
Or can I add some batteries with a smaller (or larger) capacity per
cell?
Thanks for your thoughts and experience.
Phil
Anthony Matonak
...
> George -
I'm no George and I'm certainly no expert but I think I can point out
the most blatantly obvious stuff. :)
> Let's for example say that I need 70 kwh of capacity.
> Suppose that I then obtain and install a single series string of
> batteries to provide that capacity.
...
> Suppose further that after a couple of years of successful operation
> that "things change." New processes are added.
> And, that I then need more capacity - suppose I need 100kwh capacity
> and 10000 watts peak from my inverters.
>
> Can I easily add additional batteries in series to reach the new
> 100kwh capacity?
> Or, must I go to a new battery size for the entire installation?
I've been told that it's not a good idea to mix old and new batteries.
Your best bet is to find a buyer or alternative use for the old cells
and get a new pack. Either that or another source of energy (like a
generator or wind turbine) to let you squeak by on the smaller than
needed batteries.
> What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
> series string?
> Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
> so, what is it?
The inverters are usually designed for a set input voltage. These are
usually 12V, 24V, 48V. Anything over 48V and I think some regulations
make life difficult. I'm not up on state of the art but I get the
impression you can't switch input voltages on most inverters. It's a
case of switching out the inverter for one with a higher input voltage.
> Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
> Or can I add some batteries with a smaller (or larger) capacity per
> cell?
Battery packs work best when they all match. If they don't match then
bad things happen, boiling batteries, cell reversal, early failure,
stuff like that.
With a system of that size, you're probably going to be hiring a
professional and they should be more than capable of figuring out ways
to help you upgrade. With more advanced technology it may be possible
to break your battery pack into smaller units or have paralleled
inverters, for instance. If you think you may need to do a major
upgrade in the future then planning for it up front can help a lot.
Anthony
George Ghio
Un-realistic but I'll play.
> Suppose that I then obtain and install a single series string of
> batteries to provide that capacity.
>
> And, further suppose that I obtain the 8000watt of inverters needed
> to meet the max instantaneous load with a reasonable "fudge factor"
> for head room and motor start loads.
>
> Suppose further that after a couple of years of successful operation
> that "things change." New processes are added.
> And, that I then need more capacity - suppose I need 100kwh capacity
> and 10000 watts peak from my inverters.
>
> Can I easily add additional batteries in series to reach the new
> 100kwh capacity?
No, and neither should you add a second string in parallel, unless you can find a set of batteries
that are of the same capacity and age(use) as the first string. Adding batteries to a series string
does not add capacity but increases voltage.
> Or, must I go to a new battery size for the entire installation?
That would be the best choice. It may be that batteries of the capacity may not be available so the
second best choice would be to run two parallel strings of lesser capacity and double your battery
maint.
>
> What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
> series string?
The usual for home power would be 48V. I did meet a guy who had a 240volt system. Funny thing, he
had a bunch of batteries in his trailer at the time. He wouldn't say what he was doing with his
batteries but did mention that the ones in the trailer were to replace the ones that exploded in use.
> Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
> so, what is it?
No, you can have an inverter custom built to suit. Most people would use 12 - 24 - 48 volts. The
rule of thumb is 12V for 1000Whrs 24V for 2000Whrs and 48V for 3000Whrs +. In reality these loads
will have a fair amount of gray area in actual use.
>
> What do I do when my capacity needs cause the single string to exceed
> the input voltage specs of the inverters?
See above. That said, it would not happen. You can add all the batteries you want to what ever
voltage but, you can only add capacity by using batteries with higher capacity. Changing the
capacity of a single string of series batteries will not change the voltage and adding batteries to
a single string will change the voltage but not add to the capacity.
>
> Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
No, they should be the "same" capacity to insure equal charging. That said I do know of a system, 23
- 840Ah and 1 - 1000Ah that still works but the 1000Ah is always undercharged. The owner is saving
for a new set of batteries. In a discussion such as this it would be wise to learn the difference
between cells and batteries.
> Or can I add some batteries with a smaller (or larger) capacity per
> cell?
Of course you can. I would suggest that you start a Christmas club account at the bank for the new
battery bank the same day you add your rogue cells.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts and experience.
>
> Phil
These are straight forward answers to your hypothetical question. Your question is a nonsense as far
as home power goes. As an industrial system, series - parallel batteries would be used. The charging
system would most likely cost more than the batteries and the batteries would be replaced as often
as every five years irregardless of their condition. It would all be written off on the taxes anyway.
Reality says;
70kWh/day
5 days autonomy
Battery capacity 12000Ah
Daily dod 13.5%
296 - 175W panels - 4 in series - 74 parallel strings.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>George means well....
When he first arrived in the group I thought he was a well-meaning
boob. I even emailed another poster asking him not to mock George
quite so much. But after watching him repeatedly write wild
exaggerations and outright lies about knowledgeable posters who'd
corrected his frequent and blatant errors, I came to the conclusion
that he'd washed out of his little solar biz for very good reason. The
course he took couldn't make up for the lack of experience and
critical thinking, which is why even after 20 years he's still limited
to answering the most basic questions and posting the same elementary
stuff over and over - info that one can read on any web site without
it being contaminated with goofy criticisms.
> He just has a problem with people just starting out in solar.
He has a problem with *everyone* who refuses to sign on to his tunnel
vision opinions. Doesn't matter if you're trying to charge some AAAs
or if you're one of the biggest solar outfits in the US. If you
correct George you'll get Ghioed until you shut up, which is as close
as he comes to accomplishment.
> The way I look at it is.... get a hF 45 watt kit an optima deep cycle
>(yellow top) a 4 amp charge controller and a small inverter.
> If you do that...you will learn really quick as to what is involved in
>larger solar systems without expending a lot of cash.
> I ran my 2 meter ham radio and a 5 watt cfl on the above system for 6
>months befor I expanded the system. It worked great.
> You will learn more by hands on than by anybody telling you what you should
>do...
> My 2 cents
I think that's true more often than not. For example, I've talked to a
couple of guys in the last year who pretty much refuse to do any math
no matter how much I encourage them. They both insist that their
personal experience will trump any planning, and they're mostly right.
They both have 48V Outback inverters and MX60s. So their systems are
easily expanded except for batteries which worse case can be sold and
replaced.
I've done it both ways - I did a lot of measuring and estimating
before moving off-grid or spending any money. But on the wind side I
bought a small turbine to try before investing in a tower. Right now I
have a new project in the works (for a friend) - a 24' tall,
free-standing tower than can hoist a ton and be packed in to remote
locations. There are several ways it could be done, but I think I'm
going to spend a day doing the initial work on the most instinctive
approach and then seen if I like it. I'm pretty sure the days labor
will get me farther along than trying to think of the all the pros and
cons of every alternative.
Wayne
Todd
> Todd wrote:
> >> Those that want to play with solar can do so. I'm talking about serious design and installation.
>
> >> Fine by me, except, after they get their porch lit they become an expert. Well, let's face it they
> >> aren't. Not by any stretch if their imagination.
>
> >> 15 Watt panels are toys. you buy them for your children to play with and perhaps learn something
>
> > And then he says:
> >> Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is just not that much to learn. Why people want solar
> >> to be so mysterious is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but the
> >> correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it will work.
>
> > What's wrong with this picture?
>
> Nothing. It is perfectly true. Anyone can size and design a solar power system.
You miss my point. Your first three comments are booga booga ....
don't try this yourself at home boys and girls.
You last comment is "this is all really trivial". So why the first
three comments?
>
>
>
> >>> As for paralleling batteries, It can be done but requires a lot more time.
> >>> Such as, Charging each set of batteries for 1 day a month by itself and
> >>> equalizing each set when needed) but it can be done, not the best way to do
> >>> it, but It can be done.
> >> Of course it can be done. It is now and has always been and will continue to be the second best option.
>
> > And the first best option is?
>
> Single string series.
I have 10 12V batteries. Is single string series for this 120VDC? If
so, where do I find an inverter that takes 120VDC? If not, what is
"single string series"?
>
>
>
> >>> George, I am here, to learn and to help others, when I can.
> >> Well, I'm sorry. But you help perpetrate the same old myths about batteries and design that do more
> >> harm and cost people more money than if they just learned to use the correct formula.
>
> > And the correct formula is?
>
> >> Good, you learned that parallel batteries work, and because they work and you use them you feel free
> >> to tell others that it is a good idea.
>
> > And the better alternative is?
>
> Single string series.
COIK.
>
>
>
> >> You have built a system. This is not the same as sizing and designing a purpose built system to meet
> >> a required load.
>
> > Are we back to: "Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is
> > just not that much to learn. Why people want solar to be so mysterious
> > is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but
> > the correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it
> > will work." ???
>
> There is a difference. Wayne built a system.Then kept throwing money at it until it would meet his
> energy demand, at least during daylight hours.
So this is just a spitting match between you and Wayne?
>
> The other option is to design to the expected load and build a system that that works to spec from
> the moment it is switched on.
You can write a spec and design and build to it perfectly ... and it
can fail because the spec was wrong. That's why even the most
knowledgeable engineers build pilot plants first.
>
>
>
> >>> George, do you realize, That if everyone listened to you, no one would ever
> >>> try to start a small expandable solar system?
> >> And a bloody good thing that would be. Small expandable systems are called toys.
>
> > Of course they are. General Motors and Ford started business making
> > 10,000 cars a day didn't they?
>
> Not exactly the same thing but close enough, to increase production it was required that a new
> assembly line be built.
You miss the point again. Even if the auto manufactures had demand of
10,000 cars a day before opening their first plant, they couldn't have
opened a 10K car plant. They didn't have the knowledge. They couldn't
take the risk. In any endeavor, especially new ones, you walk before
you run.
>
>
>
> >> You are still in
> >> the first category.
>
> > And GM and Ford and George have rendered the first category obsolete.
>
> See above.
You see above!
>
>
>
> >> Try this;
>
> >> Do an energy audit that defines your final goal in kWh.
>
> > This is the ARROGANT AVOIDER EXPERT tactic. Sell the analysis:
>
> I'm not "selling" anything. It is all free to those who are willing to remove their head from their ass.
You sure come off as if you're selling something ... if nothing more
than you are an expert and others should just behave and listen.
>
>
>
> > Final goal kWh isn't of much use if you don't know the demand pattern.
> > And I'll bet George's analysis does not reveal that. In fact I bet
> > nobody's does. I bet they just add a fudge factor to apply to the kWh
> > and hope for the best. And if they do that they might as well look at
> > the light bills and back calculate to kWh and do the same thing.
>
> Crap. The demand pattern is a total nonsense in a well designed system. Over this 24 hour period X
> kWh is consumed. If the system has the correct capacity who cares when the load is run.
Oh really? Try this: You are sawing wood remotely from 10:00AM to
2:00PM on sunny days only. You consume 5kWh on days you use the
system. What does the design look like?
Then try this: You are home only in the evening hours when there is no
PV output. You have a small modeling shop and run shop tools 6 hours
each evening. You also have normal micro wave, lighting, and home
entertainment demands. You consume 5kWh per day on average. What does
the design look like?
They're different aren't they?
>
> Except for wayne who must needs do as much while the sun shines as he can.
Right ... everyone has the same demand pattern except Wayne.
>
>
>
> >> Get a copy of the correct formula or a spreadsheet. I will send you one if you like.
>
> > You make a big deal about this formula: Is addition now called a
> > formula?
>
> Well, 1+1 is a formula that yields the answer of 2.
Right. But people not trying to impress with the complexity of their
knowledge base refer to that as addition rather than a formula.
>
> But of course the formula for the sizing of a solar power system is a little bit more involved than
> this. I can see that you may require help to understand it, but most people would be able to grasp
> the basics in a few minutes.
And how is it you can see that? So far, every illustration you have
given is simple addition?
>
>
>
> >> Compare the sized system to what you have now and see if what you have done so far is compatible and
> >> able to be expanded to what you require for a price that is realistic compared to having just built
> >> the system you need.
>
> >> Something to think about.
>
> > Right ... and we've moved so much closer to the true answer to the
> > question haven't we?
>
> Yes, use the correct formula to workout your required load in kWh at the beginning and use only
> equipment that fits to the final solution and be prepared to dispose of a large part of this
> equipment in the process of growing a system.
See above. You admit that the demand pattern is not a concern, yet it
is a trivial exercise to show you are wrong.
>
> Far cheaper to just design and build the required system.
Actually, probably far more expensive. To design and build the
required system when you don't know what is required (which you have
demonstrated you don't) means you over design the system or it under
performs. An over designed system will always be more expensive than a
scalable system where you add components as you learn the requirements
through real experience. Further, learning by experience can avoid the
folly of buying an expensive PV system when a simple diesel driven
alternator charging the batteries can outperform it at a fraction of
the cost.
philkryder
Why do you say it is unrealistic?
I don't need 5 days autonomy, but rather only 2.
35kwh per day.
It sounds like if I need to "expand later," that I would need to
remove the existing setup and re-install.
Did you imply that or did I mis-understand?
thanks
Phil
philkryder
>
> I think that's true more often than not. For example, I've talked to a
> couple of guys in the last year who pretty much refuse to do any math
> no matter how much I encourage them. They both insist that their
> personal experience will trump any planning, and they're mostly right.
> They both have 48V Outback inverters and MX60s. So their systems are
> easily expanded except for batteries which worse case can be sold and
> replaced.
>
One of the reasons for being reluctant to make precise measurements
and calculations is that "thing happen."
As someone said, "prediction is terribly difficult, ESPECIALLY about
the FUTURE."
I want to have a system that is easily expandable, because operations
can change.
With a grid-tie system, one can let the grid carry extra load for "a
while".
With a generator system, FUEL costs dominate the long term costs
rather than CAPITAL costs. Therefore the system is easily scaled by
buying a new generator.
But consider what I must do with the series batteries that George
recommends.
I must "sell them all and get new ones all of which are the SAME
size."
Is it any wonder that folks are reluctant to jump in with both feet?
Is it any wonder that folks want to start small?
The problem is not the "error bars" on measurement or calculation.
The problem is the error bars on predicting the FUTURE.
And the massive size of each individual step in larger systems.
Of course, I really don't know.
I'm just inferring this from reading the posts and my own experience
with the past - which in my life was once the FUTURE.
Phil
Todd
> > 100kwh capacity?
>
> No, and neither should you add a second string in parallel, unless you can find a set of batteries
> that are of the same capacity and age(use) as the first string. Adding batteries to a series string
> does not add capacity but increases voltage.
Wrong. Adding batteries, whether in series or in parallel, adds
capacity. Adding in series adds power capacity and voltage capacity.
Adding in parallel adds power capacity and current capacity. Buck and
boost DC-DC converters do the trading off of voltage for current and
vice versa and consume a little power for themselves in the process.
>
> > Or, must I go to a new battery size for the entire installation?
>
> That would be the best choice. It may be that batteries of the capacity may not be available so the
> second best choice would be to run two parallel strings of lesser capacity and double your battery
> maint.
Just what is the nature of this maintenance? I don't dispute that
adding batteries adds to maintenance. I'm just wondering how the
maintenance differs when adding in series or in parallel?
I also have a question regarding the batteries in series. I've done
some experimenting with 3 and 4 of my 12V batteries in series being
charged directly from my auto alternator putting out say 38V across
the 3 or 50V across the 4. The batteries are all identical and about
the same age. They are not all necessarily at the same potential to
start. I found 1 of the batteries would quickly get up to 15V before
the others and so I would have to throttle back letting the others
(say at only 12.5 to 13.5) catch up. What kind of control systems are
available to detect this condition and control it?
>
>
>
> > What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
> > series string?
>
> The usual for home power would be 48V. I did meet a guy who had a 240volt system. Funny thing, he
> had a bunch of batteries in his trailer at the time. He wouldn't say what he was doing with his
> batteries but did mention that the ones in the trailer were to replace the ones that exploded in use.
So, what was he using as a 240+ volt source for charging? What was he
using for inverting that could take a 240V source?
>
> > Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
> > so, what is it?
>
> No, you can have an inverter custom built to suit.
And you think that's practical?
> Most people would use 12 - 24 - 48 volts. The
> rule of thumb is 12V for 1000Whrs 24V for 2000Whrs and 48V for 3000Whrs +. In reality these loads
> will have a fair amount of gray area in actual use.
What is the principle behind that rule of thumb? It seems to me a
better rule of thumb is to go as high in voltage as your charger and
inverter can support because the connecting wires are smaller and thus
the losses are lower. The downside is what you have to do to keep all
the cells in the system equalized.
>
>
>
> > What do I do when my capacity needs cause the single string to exceed
> > the input voltage specs of the inverters?
>
> See above. That said, it would not happen.
I saw the above. And it would happen. You even state that getting a
custom built inverter is practical. Do you then have that custom built
inverter rebuilt? Of course not!
> You can add all the batteries you want to what ever
> voltage but, you can only add capacity by using batteries with higher capacity. Changing the
> capacity of a single string of series batteries will not change the voltage and adding batteries to
> a single string will change the voltage but not add to the capacity.
Again ... absolute nonsense. If I have a 1 12V battery, 70AH string I
have 840Wh. If I have a 2 12V battery string, each with 70AH capacity,
I have 1.68kWh. I have doubled my capacity. I have doubled my voltage
if I put them in series. I have doubled my current if I put them in
parallel.
>
>
>
> > Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
>
> No, they should be the "same" capacity to insure equal charging. That said I do know of a system, 23
> - 840Ah and 1 - 1000Ah that still works but the 1000Ah is always undercharged. The owner is saving
> for a new set of batteries. In a discussion such as this it would be wise to learn the difference
> between cells and batteries.
It would also be important to bring into the discussion the issues of
equalizing battery cells when the batteries are in series vs when they
are in parallel!!!
>
> > Or can I add some batteries with a smaller (or larger) capacity per
> > cell?
>
> Of course you can. I would suggest that you start a Christmas club account at the bank for the new
> battery bank the same day you add your rogue cells.
>
>
>
> > Thanks for your thoughts and experience.
>
> > Phil
>
> These are straight forward answers to your hypothetical question. Your question is a nonsense as far
> as home power goes. As an industrial system, series - parallel batteries would be used. The charging
> system would most likely cost more than the batteries and the batteries would be replaced as often
> as every five years irregardless of their condition. It would all be written off on the taxes anyway.
>
> Reality says;
>
> 70kWh/day
>
> 5 days autonomy
>
> Battery capacity 12000Ah
>
> Daily dod 13.5%
>
> 296 - 175W panels - 4 in series - 74 parallel strings.
COIK
clareatsnyder.on.ca
If the batteries are identical and charged and discharged in series,
this will never happen. A "battery" is a number of cells in series.
Putting 2 12 volt (6 cell) "batteries" in series makes one 12 cell 24
volt battery. The cells will equalize on the first charge, and should
then stay equalized as they discharge and charge together.
Putting two 12 volt batteries in parallel makes 2 batteries.
George Ghio
That is not quite what you said. What you said was;
"Let's for example say that I need 70 kwh of capacity."
Lack of useful information. Failure to us correct and complete information results in incorrect
sizing. If you want better results you will need better input information.
>
> It sounds like if I need to "expand later," that I would need to
> remove the existing setup and re-install.
> Did you imply that or did I mis-understand?
You failed to provide full and correct information. The answer is that you would need to replace
your battery bank (best solution) or double your battery bank with a parallel string of batteries of
the same capacity and age (second best solution).
The first solution would cost you less than the second because you would sell the first set of
batteries and offset the cost of the new set.
Please note that I have spent years trying to get people to realize the importance of using full and
correct figures in design of solar power systems. You preferred to listen to those who tell you what
you want to hear. Place yourself in category one. Being told what you want to hear makes you feel
good, listening to what is correct will make you feel better in the future.
>
> thanks
> Phil
George Ghio
>>> Can I easily add additional batteries in series to reach the new
>>> 100kwh capacity?
>> No, and neither should you add a second string in parallel, unless you can find a set of batteries
>> that are of the same capacity and age(use) as the first string. Adding batteries to a series string
>> does not add capacity but increases voltage.
>
> Wrong. Adding batteries, whether in series or in parallel, adds
> capacity. Adding in series adds power capacity and voltage capacity.
> Adding in parallel adds power capacity and current capacity. Buck and
> boost DC-DC converters do the trading off of voltage for current and
> vice versa and consume a little power for themselves in the process.
six 12V - 100Ah batteries in series will be 100Ah at 12V
twelve 12V - 100Ah batteries in series will be 100Ah at 24V
>
>>> Or, must I go to a new battery size for the entire installation?
>> That would be the best choice. It may be that batteries of the capacity may not be available so the
>> second best choice would be to run two parallel strings of lesser capacity and double your battery
>> maint.
>
> Just what is the nature of this maintenance? I don't dispute that
> adding batteries adds to maintenance. I'm just wondering how the
> maintenance differs when adding in series or in parallel?
More care is required to maintain correct charge in parallel sets of batteries
It is a geometric progression
2 Parallel strings - twice the maint.
3 parallel strings _ four times the maint.
>
> I also have a question regarding the batteries in series. I've done
> some experimenting with 3 and 4 of my 12V batteries in series being
> charged directly from my auto alternator putting out say 38V across
> the 3 or 50V across the 4. The batteries are all identical and about
> the same age. They are not all necessarily at the same potential to
> start. I found 1 of the batteries would quickly get up to 15V before
> the others and so I would have to throttle back letting the others
> (say at only 12.5 to 13.5) catch up. What kind of control systems are
> available to detect this condition and control it?
Several hours later they should all read the same (well as near as) if they don't then you have a
problem. Look at your connections to start with.
Many charge controllers have come and gone. The best charge controller is between your ears.
Unfortunately the user manual was lost in the mail.
>
>>
>>
>>> What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
>>> series string?
>> The usual for home power would be 48V. I did meet a guy who had a 240volt system. Funny thing, he
>> had a bunch of batteries in his trailer at the time. He wouldn't say what he was doing with his
>> batteries but did mention that the ones in the trailer were to replace the ones that exploded in use.
>
> So, what was he using as a 240+ volt source for charging? What was he
> using for inverting that could take a 240V source?
If you remember, eh did not say what he was doing with his batteries.
>
>>> Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
>>> so, what is it?
>> No, you can have an inverter custom built to suit.
>
> And you think that's practical?
It would depend on the application.
>
>> Most people would use 12 - 24 - 48 volts. The
>> rule of thumb is 12V for 1000Whrs 24V for 2000Whrs and 48V for 3000Whrs +. In reality these loads
>> will have a fair amount of gray area in actual use.
>
> What is the principle behind that rule of thumb? It seems to me a
> better rule of thumb is to go as high in voltage as your charger and
> inverter can support because the connecting wires are smaller and thus
> the losses are lower. The downside is what you have to do to keep all
> the cells in the system equalized.
Cost and efficiency. What you want and what's true are not the same thing.
>
>>
>>
>>> What do I do when my capacity needs cause the single string to exceed
>>> the input voltage specs of the inverters?
>> See above. That said, it would not happen.
>
> I saw the above. And it would happen. You even state that getting a
> custom built inverter is practical. Do you then have that custom built
> inverter rebuilt? Of course not!
If it was cost effective for the job then it is practical.
>
>> You can add all the batteries you want to what ever
>> voltage but, you can only add capacity by using batteries with higher capacity. Changing the
>> capacity of a single string of series batteries will not change the voltage and adding batteries to
>> a single string will change the voltage but not add to the capacity.
>
> Again ... absolute nonsense. If I have a 1 12V battery, 70AH string I
> have 840Wh. If I have a 2 12V battery string, each with 70AH capacity,
> I have 1.68kWh. I have doubled my capacity. I have doubled my voltage
> if I put them in series. I have doubled my current if I put them in
> parallel.
No you still have only 70Ah capacity.
>
>>
>>
>>> Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
>> No, they should be the "same" capacity to insure equal charging. That said I do know of a system, 23
>> - 840Ah and 1 - 1000Ah that still works but the 1000Ah is always undercharged. The owner is saving
>> for a new set of batteries. In a discussion such as this it would be wise to learn the difference
>> between cells and batteries.
>
> It would also be important to bring into the discussion the issues of
> equalizing battery cells when the batteries are in series vs when they
> are in parallel!!!
Equalizing batteries is part and parcel with owning and using them, A good reg will do the job on a
regular basis.
>
>>> Or can I add some batteries with a smaller (or larger) capacity per
>>> cell?
>> Of course you can. I would suggest that you start a Christmas club account at the bank for the new
>> battery bank the same day you add your rogue cells.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Thanks for your thoughts and experience.
>>> Phil
>> These are straight forward answers to your hypothetical question. Your question is a nonsense as far
>> as home power goes. As an industrial system, series - parallel batteries would be used. The charging
>> system would most likely cost more than the batteries and the batteries would be replaced as often
>> as every five years irregardless of their condition. It would all be written off on the taxes anyway.
>>
>> Reality says;
>>
>> 70kWh/day
>>
>> 5 days autonomy
>>
>> Battery capacity 12000Ah
>>
>> Daily dod 13.5%
>>
>> 296 - 175W panels - 4 in series - 74 parallel strings.
>
> COIK
>
>
--
George Ghio
colour. Keep up the good work, I love a good laugh.
--
George Ghio
>> I think that's true more often than not. For example, I've talked to a
>> couple of guys in the last year who pretty much refuse to do any math
>> no matter how much I encourage them. They both insist that their
>> personal experience will trump any planning, and they're mostly right.
>> They both have 48V Outback inverters and MX60s. So their systems are
>> easily expanded except for batteries which worse case can be sold and
>> replaced.
>>
>
> One of the reasons for being reluctant to make precise measurements
> and calculations is that "thing happen."
>
> As someone said, "prediction is terribly difficult, ESPECIALLY about
> the FUTURE."
>
> I want to have a system that is easily expandable, because operations
> can change.
You can have an expandable system, just leave out the word "easily"
>
> With a grid-tie system, one can let the grid carry extra load for "a
> while".
Of course.
>
> With a generator system, FUEL costs dominate the long term costs
> rather than CAPITAL costs. Therefore the system is easily scaled by
> buying a new generator.
Fuel will continue to rise in price. The sun will be the same price tomorrow as it was yesterday.
>
> But consider what I must do with the series batteries that George
> recommends.
>
> I must "sell them all and get new ones all of which are the SAME
> size."
Yes, and it is cheaper because you get back money for you old batteries, and make no mistake there
is a growing list of people who will pay good money for good second hand batteries.
> Is it any wonder that folks are reluctant to jump in with both feet?
> Is it any wonder that folks want to start small?
Look, if you want to start small, feel free. But if you don't know what you are building towards you
will probably never arrive.
>
> The problem is not the "error bars" on measurement or calculation.
> The problem is the error bars on predicting the FUTURE.
I predict that energy from sunlight will cost the same for the next several thousand years.
The equipment needed to use that energy will come down in the same period.
>
> And the massive size of each individual step in larger systems.
Ah, now it comes down to the real bugbear, fear of the unknown.
>
> Of course, I really don't know.
> I'm just inferring this from reading the posts and my own experience
> with the past - which in my life was once the FUTURE.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
--
George Ghio
> On Jun 15, 7:17 pm, George Ghio <g...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>> Todd wrote:
>>>> Those that want to play with solar can do so. I'm talking about serious design and installation.
>>>> Fine by me, except, after they get their porch lit they become an expert. Well, let's face it they
>>>> aren't. Not by any stretch if their imagination.
>>>> 15 Watt panels are toys. you buy them for your children to play with and perhaps learn something
>>> And then he says:
>>>> Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is just not that much to learn. Why people want solar
>>>> to be so mysterious is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but the
>>>> correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it will work.
>>> What's wrong with this picture?
>> Nothing. It is perfectly true. Anyone can size and design a solar power system.
>
> You miss my point. Your first three comments are booga booga ....
> don't try this yourself at home boys and girls.
You miss the point. Anybody can do it. And at home. And get it right. And save money in the long run.
>
> You last comment is "this is all really trivial". So why the first
> three comments?
The first comment is not to let your wishes get in the way of the truth
The second comment is to not let it go to your head when your head is in fact empty
The third comment is to beware of smooth talking salesmen who only want your money and will stroke
your ego to get it.
In short the whole point is that there is no great, dark magic about design of solar power systems.
Just true and correct numbers and a simple formula.
>>
>>
>>>>> As for paralleling batteries, It can be done but requires a lot more time.
>>>>> Such as, Charging each set of batteries for 1 day a month by itself and
>>>>> equalizing each set when needed) but it can be done, not the best way to do
>>>>> it, but It can be done.
>>>> Of course it can be done. It is now and has always been and will continue to be the second best option.
>>> And the first best option is?
>> Single string series.
>
> I have 10 12V batteries. Is single string series for this 120VDC? If
> so, where do I find an inverter that takes 120VDC? If not, what is
> "single string series"?
10 X 12V is 120V.
Ask an inverter manufacture that specializes in large grid tied systems.
>
>>
>>
>>>>> George, I am here, to learn and to help others, when I can.
>>>> Well, I'm sorry. But you help perpetrate the same old myths about batteries and design that do more
>>>> harm and cost people more money than if they just learned to use the correct formula.
>>> And the correct formula is?
>>>> Good, you learned that parallel batteries work, and because they work and you use them you feel free
>>>> to tell others that it is a good idea.
>>> And the better alternative is?
>> Single string series.
>
> COIK.
>
>>
>>
>>>> You have built a system. This is not the same as sizing and designing a purpose built system to meet
>>>> a required load.
>>> Are we back to: "Look, the plain and simple fact is that, there is
>>> just not that much to learn. Why people want solar to be so mysterious
>>> is beyond me. Anybody can design a solar power system with nothing but
>>> the correct formula and a calculator in around five minutes. And it
>>> will work." ???
>> There is a difference. Wayne built a system.Then kept throwing money at it until it would meet his
>> energy demand, at least during daylight hours.
>
> So this is just a spitting match between you and Wayne?
>
>> The other option is to design to the expected load and build a system that that works to spec from
>> the moment it is switched on.
>
> You can write a spec and design and build to it perfectly ... and it
> can fail because the spec was wrong. That's why even the most
> knowledgeable engineers build pilot plants first.
IF the spec is wrong. Then you got it wrong and need to learn your limits before you try again.
The first system I built for myself did not work properly. The fault was entirely my lack of
knowledge. This was more than twenty years ago, there was no one to guide me and I believed what
made me feel good rather than the facts.
>
>>
>>
>>>>> George, do you realize, That if everyone listened to you, no one would ever
>>>>> try to start a small expandable solar system?
>>>> And a bloody good thing that would be. Small expandable systems are called toys.
>>> Of course they are. General Motors and Ford started business making
>>> 10,000 cars a day didn't they?
>> Not exactly the same thing but close enough, to increase production it was required that a new
>> assembly line be built.
>
> You miss the point again. Even if the auto manufactures had demand of
> 10,000 cars a day before opening their first plant, they couldn't have
> opened a 10K car plant. They didn't have the knowledge. They couldn't
> take the risk. In any endeavor, especially new ones, you walk before
> you run.
Yes, you walk through your house doing an energy audit, you walk through the correct formula, you
walk through selecting the correct equipment, walk through the installation and turn the system on
setting the parameters for the charge controller and inverter. Put your feet up and relax.
>
>>
>>
>>>> You are still in
>>>> the first category.
>>> And GM and Ford and George have rendered the first category obsolete.
>> See above.
>
> You see above!
>
>>
>>
>>>> Try this;
>>>> Do an energy audit that defines your final goal in kWh.
>>> This is the ARROGANT AVOIDER EXPERT tactic. Sell the analysis:
>> I'm not "selling" anything. It is all free to those who are willing to remove their head from their ass.
>
> You sure come off as if you're selling something ... if nothing more
> than you are an expert and others should just behave and listen.
You could say that I'm selling something. The price is $0.00
The product is your solar power system sizing and design. In short Knowledge that allows you to do it.
>
>>
>>
>>> Final goal kWh isn't of much use if you don't know the demand pattern.
>>> And I'll bet George's analysis does not reveal that. In fact I bet
>>> nobody's does. I bet they just add a fudge factor to apply to the kWh
>>> and hope for the best. And if they do that they might as well look at
>>> the light bills and back calculate to kWh and do the same thing.
>> Crap. The demand pattern is a total nonsense in a well designed system. Over this 24 hour period X
>> kWh is consumed. If the system has the correct capacity who cares when the load is run.
>
> Oh really? Try this: You are sawing wood remotely from 10:00AM to
> 2:00PM on sunny days only. You consume 5kWh on days you use the
> system. What does the design look like?
It looks just like the system I use, only larger. I cut wood maybe one day a week, the system runs
continuously day to day. If I am not there for a day, well, what does it matter.
>
> Then try this: You are home only in the evening hours when there is no
> PV output. You have a small modeling shop and run shop tools 6 hours
> each evening. You also have normal micro wave, lighting, and home
> entertainment demands. You consume 5kWh per day on average. What does
> the design look like?
Exactly the same.
>
> They're different aren't they?
No
>
>> Except for wayne who must needs do as much while the sun shines as he can.
>
> Right ... everyone has the same demand pattern except Wayne.
Yeah, pretty much.
>
>>
>>
>>>> Get a copy of the correct formula or a spreadsheet. I will send you one if you like.
>
>
>>> You make a big deal about this formula: Is addition now called a
>>> formula?
>> Well, 1+1 is a formula that yields the answer of 2.
>
> Right. But people not trying to impress with the complexity of their
> knowledge base refer to that as addition rather than a formula.
It is still a formula.
>
>> But of course the formula for the sizing of a solar power system is a little bit more involved than
>> this. I can see that you may require help to understand it, but most people would be able to grasp
>> the basics in a few minutes.
>
> And how is it you can see that? So far, every illustration you have
> given is simple addition?
Yeah, good isn't it, solar power is so simple it's amazing.
>
>>
>>
>>>> Compare the sized system to what you have now and see if what you have done so far is compatible and
>>>> able to be expanded to what you require for a price that is realistic compared to having just built
>>>> the system you need.
>>>> Something to think about.
>>> Right ... and we've moved so much closer to the true answer to the
>>> question haven't we?
>> Yes, use the correct formula to workout your required load in kWh at the beginning and use only
>> equipment that fits to the final solution and be prepared to dispose of a large part of this
>> equipment in the process of growing a system.
>
> See above. You admit that the demand pattern is not a concern, yet it
> is a trivial exercise to show you are wrong.
Is it really.
>
>> Far cheaper to just design and build the required system.
>
> Actually, probably far more expensive. To design and build the
> required system when you don't know what is required (which you have
> demonstrated you don't) means you over design the system or it under
> performs. An over designed system will always be more expensive than a
> scalable system where you add components as you learn the requirements
> through real experience. Further, learning by experience can avoid the
> folly of buying an expensive PV system when a simple diesel driven
> alternator charging the batteries can outperform it at a fraction of
> the cost.
The fact that you believe in a scalable system is just that you want it to be true. Put yourself in
category one.
philkryder
> philkryder wrote:
<snip>
>
> You failed to provide full and correct information. The answer is that you would need to replace
> your battery bank (best solution) or double your battery bank with a parallel string of batteries of
> the same capacity and age (second best solution).
>
> The first solution would cost you less than the second because you would sell the first set of
> batteries and offset the cost of the new set.
>
< snip >
How did I get a large enough inverter to meet the increased demand?
Wouldn't I need to replace the inverter as well?
Anthony Matonak
>
> How did I get a large enough inverter to meet the increased demand?
> Wouldn't I need to replace the inverter as well?
You wouldn't need to change your inverter unless your instantaneous
power demand was higher. If the demand at any one moment was the
same but for a longer period of time, then you could stick with
the same inverter.
For example, (in simple numbers), say your need was for 7kW continuous
for 10 hours. This is 70kWh and you would need an inverter that could
put out 7kW. Now say you go to around 14 hours instead of 10. This
comes out to about 100kWh but you still only need 7kW at any one time.
Now say you stick with 10 hours but need 10kW continuous. This is still
100kWh but you'll need an inverter that can produce 10kW instead of 7kW.
Anthony
philkryder
Exactly - but that was the scenario that I was describing.
George Ghio
"Welcome to the joys of an expandable system." Rather makes the point quite nicely. It takes very
careful planning to build a system that is expandable. Far better to plan ahead with a good idea of
what you want/need.
You are looking an an industrial power supply. That is big money. If you are not making big money
from the business then it is impracticable.
Solar energy is free, the equipment to use it is not.
philkryder
Thanks George
It sounds like the implication, based on your insight and experience,
is that with current technology and economics, you believe that PV is
economical for "small" installations, but not for larger.
Is there some "sweet spot" that you have observed?
What is the Kwh size of that sweet spot?
Or am I again, misinterpreting?
Thanks again.
Phil
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>It sounds like the implication, based on your insight and experience,
>is that with current technology and economics, you believe that PV is
>economical for "small" installations, but not for larger.
If you've been keeping up with the posts here you may have noticed
that there are folks with 6kW and larger setups who believe they've
made a sound investment.
>Is there some "sweet spot" that you have observed?
>What is the Kwh size of that sweet spot?
There's really no such thing as a sweet spot, each application is
different. Yours requires that 70+ kwh be generated during a 7 day
period and stored for use during 2 of those 7 days. That's about 50%
less energy than I make with 2 kW of tracking arrays and a 1 kW
turbine (contributes about 25% of the total) in a similar climate, so
your generating capacity will be similar as well. The difference is
that you need more than double the storage. Your choices at this point
are to make a better estimate of your consumption (it might be less
than you think), or whittle down your needs (new appliances or
whatever), or change to a combination of PV and generator etc. to
lessen the cost.
Even if you stick with the simplest make-it-and-store-it strategy, the
idea that you need 52kW of PV or even half that is pure lunacy. Since
you're obviously getting hopelessly confused here by conflicting
advice, I suggest that you spend a few minutes calling an independent
professional. Explain that you want 70 kWh (before losses) per week,
and perhaps 80 kWh of storage (keeping in mind that some of your
consumption won't be going through the batteries). The professional
will need to know exactly what climate zone you're in, and if he
doesn't ask then find someone else. Good data is readily available for
Santa Maria (only about 50 miles up the coast), so if you think your
location gets about the same amount of fog, tell the guy that and in
minutes he'll recommend an array capacity for fixed and tracking.
Beyond that he can help you decide if a turbine makes sense.
Here are some places you can call
http://store.solar-electric.com/info.html (AZ)
http://www.beyondoilsolar.com/contact_us.htm (CA)
Wayne
Todd
> >adding batteries adds to maintenance. I'm just wondering how the
> >maintenance differs when adding in series or in parallel?
>
> >I also have a question regarding the batteries in series. I've done
> >some experimenting with 3 and 4 of my 12V batteries in series being
> >charged directly from my auto alternator putting out say 38V across
> >the 3 or 50V across the 4. The batteries are all identical and about
> >the same age. They are not all necessarily at the same potential to
> >start. I found 1 of the batteries would quickly get up to 15V before
> >the others and so I would have to throttle back letting the others
> >(say at only 12.5 to 13.5) catch up. What kind of control systems are
> >available to detect this condition and control it?
>
> If the batteries are identical and charged and discharged in series,
Identical batteries will never happen either. My batteries were
identical when I bought them. Discharging one and leaving a second
fully charged makes them non-identical.
> this will never happen.
Wrong. It "always" happens.
> A "battery" is a number of cells in series.
Well duh!
> Putting 2 12 volt (6 cell) "batteries" in series makes one 12 cell 24
> volt battery.
Well duh!
> The cells will equalize on the first charge, and should
> then stay equalized as they discharge and charge together.
Perhaps ... but while they're charging, the voltage across each
battery will be different. You can't just put 3 12-V batteries in
series and put 39V across the them and expect 13V across each battery.
One will leave the pack and get over 15V across it. You must then
lower the total voltage or you'll ruin that battery as you bring the
other two up to charge.
> Putting two 12 volt batteries in parallel makes 2 batteries.
Putting 2 12 volt batteries in series makes two batteries. There's a
voltage across each (nominally but not exactly 12V) and there's a
voltage across the pair (nominally and maybe exactly 24V. One could be
11.8V and the other 12.2 and there's nothing to force them to become
the same. This is exactly why you have to equalize the 6 cells in a
single 12V battery ... because over time and because the cells are in
series, some cells have a higher voltage than others. Equalizing
brings them all up to the same voltage.).
Putting 2 12 volt batteries in parallel makes two batteries. The only
way you can consider them one battery is to put their cells and
electrolyte together (and of course you don't do that). Putting 2 12V
batteries in parallel forces both batteries to be at the same
potential (nominally 12V). You then have 2 strings of 6 2V batteries
where the strings are in parallel.
Todd
> Todd wrote:
> >>> Can I easily add additional batteries in series to reach the new
> >>> 100kwh capacity?
> >> No, and neither should you add a second string in parallel, unless you can find a set of batteries
> >> that are of the same capacity and age(use) as the first string. Adding batteries to a series string
> >> does not add capacity but increases voltage.
>
> > Wrong. Adding batteries, whether in series or in parallel, adds
> > capacity. Adding in series adds power capacity and voltage capacity.
> > Adding in parallel adds power capacity and current capacity. Buck and
> > boost DC-DC converters do the trading off of voltage for current and
> > vice versa and consume a little power for themselves in the process.
>
> six 12V - 100Ah batteries in series will be 100Ah at 12V
>
> twelve 12V - 100Ah batteries in series will be 100Ah at 24V
So far so good, George.
>
>
>
> >>> Or, must I go to a new battery size for the entire installation?
> >> That would be the best choice. It may be that batteries of the capacity may not be available so the
> >> second best choice would be to run two parallel strings of lesser capacity and double your battery
> >> maint.
>
> > Just what is the nature of this maintenance? I don't dispute that
> > adding batteries adds to maintenance. I'm just wondering how the
> > maintenance differs when adding in series or in parallel?
>
> More care is required to maintain correct charge in parallel sets of batteries
> It is a geometric progression
I asked what was the nature of the maintenance. If more care is
required, what is that care doing?
>
> 2 Parallel strings - twice the maint.
Doing what?
>
> 3 parallel strings _ four times the maint.
Doing what? And why is it climbing geometrically.
>
>
>
> > I also have a question regarding the batteries in series. I've done
> > some experimenting with 3 and 4 of my 12V batteries in series being
> > charged directly from my auto alternator putting out say 38V across
> > the 3 or 50V across the 4. The batteries are all identical and about
> > the same age. They are not all necessarily at the same potential to
> > start. I found 1 of the batteries would quickly get up to 15V before
> > the others and so I would have to throttle back letting the others
> > (say at only 12.5 to 13.5) catch up. What kind of control systems are
> > available to detect this condition and control it?
>
> Several hours later they should all read the same (well as near as) if they don't then you have a
> problem. Look at your connections to start with.
If that's the case, then why doesn't the voltage across each cell
remain the same when fully charged? Why do I have to go through a
monthly equilization exercise if not to coax each cell back to being
the same?
>
> Many charge controllers have come and gone. The best charge controller is between your ears.
> Unfortunately the user manual was lost in the mail.
If you're going to be insulting, you shouldn't be stupid at the same
time George.
>
>
>
> >>> What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
> >>> series string?
> >> The usual for home power would be 48V. I did meet a guy who had a 240volt system. Funny thing, he
> >> had a bunch of batteries in his trailer at the time. He wouldn't say what he was doing with his
> >> batteries but did mention that the ones in the trailer were to replace the ones that exploded in use.
>
> > So, what was he using as a 240+ volt source for charging? What was he
> > using for inverting that could take a 240V source?
>
> If you remember, eh did not say what he was doing with his batteries.
I didn't ask what he was doing with his batteries. I asked what he was
using to charge them. I then asked what he was using to tap that
charge (i.e. to invert from DC to AC). If you're going to be glib
George, at least pay attention.
>
>
>
> >>> Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
> >>> so, what is it?
> >> No, you can have an inverter custom built to suit.
>
> > And you think that's practical?
>
> It would depend on the application.
Oh really? Name an application where you have a new custom inverter
built to suit as the demands change.
>
>
>
> >> Most people would use 12 - 24 - 48 volts. The
> >> rule of thumb is 12V for 1000Whrs 24V for 2000Whrs and 48V for 3000Whrs +. In reality these loads
> >> will have a fair amount of gray area in actual use.
>
> > What is the principle behind that rule of thumb? It seems to me a
> > better rule of thumb is to go as high in voltage as your charger and
> > inverter can support because the connecting wires are smaller and thus
> > the losses are lower. The downside is what you have to do to keep all
> > the cells in the system equalized.
>
> Cost and efficiency. What you want and what's true are not the same thing.
George. You completely evade my question. I asked "what's the
principle behind that rule of thumb". And your answer just hangs out
in air. It neither addresses my question nor my statement. What are
you doing George?
>
>
>
> >>> What do I do when my capacity needs cause the single string to exceed
> >>> the input voltage specs of the inverters?
> >> See above. That said, it would not happen.
>
> > I saw the above. And it would happen. You even state that getting a
> > custom built inverter is practical. Do you then have that custom built
> > inverter rebuilt? Of course not!
>
> If it was cost effective for the job then it is practical.
And if it's not, you don't. And if it never is cost effective you
don't. Name a case where it's cost effective.
>
>
>
> >> You can add all the batteries you want to what ever
> >> voltage but, you can only add capacity by using batteries with higher capacity. Changing the
> >> capacity of a single string of series batteries will not change the voltage and adding batteries to
> >> a single string will change the voltage but not add to the capacity.
>
> > Again ... absolute nonsense. If I have a 1 12V battery, 70AH string I
> > have 840Wh. If I have a 2 12V battery string, each with 70AH capacity,
> > I have 1.68kWh. I have doubled my capacity. I have doubled my voltage
> > if I put them in series. I have doubled my current if I put them in
> > parallel.
>
> No you still have only 70Ah capacity.
That's current capacity. But real battery capacity (or bank capacity)
is it's ability to store and deliver energy (power). And that power is
volts x current or watts. It stores charge. When that charge moves
over time it's called current. And when that move is caused by a
voltage differential it's called power. And battery capacity is both a
function of the charge it can deliver and voltage under which it
delivers it. Are you really this stupid George?
>
>
>
> >>> Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
> >> No, they should be the "same" capacity to insure equal charging. That said I do know of a system, 23
> >> - 840Ah and 1 - 1000Ah that still works but the 1000Ah is always undercharged. The owner is saving
> >> for a new set of batteries. In a discussion such as this it would be wise to learn the difference
> >> between cells and batteries.
>
> > It would also be important to bring into the discussion the issues of
> > equalizing battery cells when the batteries are in series vs when they
> > are in parallel!!!
>
> Equalizing batteries is part and parcel with owning and using them, A good reg will do the job on a
> regular basis.
But equalization is complicated with a series string. You must assure
that no cell in the string gets too much voltage while the other cells
catch up. With batteries in parallel you never have more than 6 cells
in a string. With batteries in series (say 4 12V batteries), you now
have 24 cells in the string. It's more likely that some cells can be
overvoltaged when charging batteries in series than when charging them
in parallel.
>
philkryder
.....
> Even if you stick with the simplest make-it-and-store-it strategy, the
> Wayne
Wayne - where did the 52kw of PV come from?
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
Ghio, June 16, 2007 - "296 - 175W panels - 4 in series - 74 parallel
strings" (51.8kW)
Here are some of his previous (and very typical) GIGO calculations.
Ghio, June 1, 2007 - "48 Volt system> 3500wh/day> 250Ah batteries
Total Ah demand 81.02 > Days Autonomy 2> Daily depth of discharge 33%
20 - 80W panels (1.6kW)"
Ghio, June 1, 2007 - "a bit over 2100 Ah and 128 - 80W panels"
(10.2kW)
Ghio, May 26, 2007 - "You are using 4kW hours a day" (you wrote 4kW
load for 7 hours on 3 days per week, which is an average of 12kWh per
day)
His recommendations thus far range from 1.6kW to 51.8kW. Now, even a
blind squirrel trips over a nut occasionally, so you could keep up the
current dialogue in the hope that he might eventually stumble onto the
right numbers. But how will you know if he does? Meanwhile
knowledgeable posters will be less likely to spend time helping you
when they can see that you value gibberish as highly as thoughtful
opinions.
As I said, if you're having trouble separating the outer space numbers
from the earthly ones, then you should get an opinion from a genuine
professional. Most of them will give you a preliminary estimate over
the phone for free. You might also go back and review Sylvan's
comments.
Wayne
George Ghio
Oh, Christ no. PV can be economical for any size system. But only the user can make the choice
according to their needs.
>
> Is there some "sweet spot" that you have observed?
> What is the Kwh size of that sweet spot?
There is always a sweet spot, but again it is subjective. The user must decide whether or not it is
worth the effort and/or cost. For you a 10Kw system may be considered too expensive for the return,
while a university could consider the cost money well spent to protect their research energy needs
or computer security.
>
> Or am I again, misinterpreting?
Yes and no. Does running a generator allow you the cover your costs and make a profit?
What percentage of your load could be turned over to PV and still make a profit? Lets say that with
proper sizing and costing you find that a system that will run X% of your load would be profitable.
So you build a system that will run X%.
Two years later you find that rising fuel prices and falling PV costs make running Y% of your
remaining generator load profitable for PV.
You build another system to run the Y%.
So you now have X% + Y% running on PV. This means you have three discrete systems and can only lose
a percentage through any one system failure. You don't have all your eggs in one basket. And as you
still have the generator system you can cover either an X% or Y% system failure anyway.
You might end up with four or five PV systems in the end running everything and still have the
generator for backup.
A lot easier than trying to expand a system and a lot more security of production.
>
> Thanks again.
> Phil
George Ghio
Largely checking connections and charge levels with a hydrometer.
>
>> 2 Parallel strings - twice the maint.
>
> Doing what?
See above
>
>> 3 parallel strings _ four times the maint.
See above
>
> Doing what? And why is it climbing geometrically.
It is a dirty, tedious, job. Try it some time with a large series/parallel battery bank
>
>>
>>
>>> I also have a question regarding the batteries in series. I've done
>>> some experimenting with 3 and 4 of my 12V batteries in series being
>>> charged directly from my auto alternator putting out say 38V across
>>> the 3 or 50V across the 4. The batteries are all identical and about
>>> the same age. They are not all necessarily at the same potential to
>>> start. I found 1 of the batteries would quickly get up to 15V before
>>> the others and so I would have to throttle back letting the others
>>> (say at only 12.5 to 13.5) catch up. What kind of control systems are
>>> available to detect this condition and control it?
>> Several hours later they should all read the same (well as near as) if they don't then you have a
>> problem. Look at your connections to start with.
>
> If that's the case, then why doesn't the voltage across each cell
> remain the same when fully charged? Why do I have to go through a
> monthly equilization exercise if not to coax each cell back to being
> the same?
Because every battery is an individual. A good charge regulator will do the job just fine with a
single series string of batteries and well enough for two parallel strings with a proper maintenance
program.
More parallel strings and you get more variation requiring longer equalization.
>
>> Many charge controllers have come and gone. The best charge controller is between your ears.
>> Unfortunately the user manual was lost in the mail.
>
> If you're going to be insulting, you shouldn't be stupid at the same
> time George.
Neither insulting nor stupid, everyone got a brain and no one got a manual. You either learn to use
the tool or not, as the case may be.
I monitor my system all the time and make adjustments to the reg for summer and winter.
>
>>
>>
>>>>> What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
>>>>> series string?
>>>> The usual for home power would be 48V. I did meet a guy who had a 240volt system. Funny thing, he
>>>> had a bunch of batteries in his trailer at the time. He wouldn't say what he was doing with his
>>>> batteries but did mention that the ones in the trailer were to replace the ones that exploded in use.
>>> So, what was he using as a 240+ volt source for charging? What was he
>>> using for inverting that could take a 240V source?
>> If you remember, eh did not say what he was doing with his batteries.
>
> I didn't ask what he was doing with his batteries. I asked what he was
> using to charge them. I then asked what he was using to tap that
> charge (i.e. to invert from DC to AC). If you're going to be glib
> George, at least pay attention.
And I said he did not offer further information, at least pay attention.
>
>>
>>
>>>>> Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
>>>>> so, what is it?
>>>> No, you can have an inverter custom built to suit.
>>> And you think that's practical?
>> It would depend on the application.
>
> Oh really? Name an application where you have a new custom inverter
> built to suit as the demands change.
Oh really! Most people in the position of needing such a service will not follow the tried and true
wankery followed by those who feel that a system should be sized to the bare minimum as determined
by measuring loads at what they think they will run the load at.
>
>>
>>
>>>> Most people would use 12 - 24 - 48 volts. The
>>>> rule of thumb is 12V for 1000Whrs 24V for 2000Whrs and 48V for 3000Whrs +. In reality these loads
>>>> will have a fair amount of gray area in actual use.
>>> What is the principle behind that rule of thumb? It seems to me a
>>> better rule of thumb is to go as high in voltage as your charger and
>>> inverter can support because the connecting wires are smaller and thus
>>> the losses are lower. The downside is what you have to do to keep all
>>> the cells in the system equalized.
>> Cost and efficiency. What you want and what's true are not the same thing.
>
> George. You completely evade my question. I asked "what's the
> principle behind that rule of thumb". And your answer just hangs out
> in air. It neither addresses my question nor my statement. What are
> you doing George?
Cost and efficiency. How many times do you have to be told something?
>
>>
>>
>>>>> What do I do when my capacity needs cause the single string to exceed
>>>>> the input voltage specs of the inverters?
>>>> See above. That said, it would not happen.
>>> I saw the above. And it would happen. You even state that getting a
>>> custom built inverter is practical. Do you then have that custom built
>>> inverter rebuilt? Of course not!
>> If it was cost effective for the job then it is practical.
>
> And if it's not, you don't. And if it never is cost effective you
> don't. Name a case where it's cost effective.
Large grid feed. 240VDC in 240VAC out.
>
>>
>>
>>>> You can add all the batteries you want to what ever
>>>> voltage but, you can only add capacity by using batteries with higher capacity. Changing the
>>>> capacity of a single string of series batteries will not change the voltage and adding batteries to
>>>> a single string will change the voltage but not add to the capacity.
>>> Again ... absolute nonsense. If I have a 1 12V battery, 70AH string I
>>> have 840Wh. If I have a 2 12V battery string, each with 70AH capacity,
>>> I have 1.68kWh. I have doubled my capacity. I have doubled my voltage
>>> if I put them in series. I have doubled my current if I put them in
>>> parallel.
>> No you still have only 70Ah capacity.
>
> That's current capacity. But real battery capacity (or bank capacity)
> is it's ability to store and deliver energy (power). And that power is
> volts x current or watts. It stores charge. When that charge moves
> over time it's called current. And when that move is caused by a
> voltage differential it's called power. And battery capacity is both a
> function of the charge it can deliver and voltage under which it
> delivers it. Are you really this stupid George?
No but you seem to be.
Battery capacity is measured in Amp Hours. Sorry but that is the way it is.
If you need 1000Ah of batteries at twelve volts then you would use 500Ah of batteries at 24 volts.
Your watts stay the same, and the actual capacity in hours of use is the same.
You see, this is the reason for using a higher voltage battery bank. It's called system sizing and
determines the capacity of the battery required. It is usually worked out on days of autonomy.
>
>>
>>
>>>>> Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
>>>> No, they should be the "same" capacity to insure equal charging. That said I do know of a system, 23
>>>> - 840Ah and 1 - 1000Ah that still works but the 1000Ah is always undercharged. The owner is saving
>>>> for a new set of batteries. In a discussion such as this it would be wise to learn the difference
>>>> between cells and batteries.
>>> It would also be important to bring into the discussion the issues of
>>> equalizing battery cells when the batteries are in series vs when they
>>> are in parallel!!!
>> Equalizing batteries is part and parcel with owning and using them, A good reg will do the job on a
>> regular basis.
>
> But equalization is complicated with a series string. You must assure
> that no cell in the string gets too much voltage while the other cells
> catch up. With batteries in parallel you never have more than 6 cells
> in a string. With batteries in series (say 4 12V batteries), you now
> have 24 cells in the string. It's more likely that some cells can be
> overvoltaged when charging batteries in series than when charging them
> in parallel.
Oh yeah, real complicated. It happens every month, automatically.
It would appear that you really are stupid. Your last statement is as worthless as the rest of your
post.
merlin-7
> that no cell in the string gets too much voltage while the other cells
> catch up. With batteries in parallel you never have more than 6 cells
> in a string. With batteries in series (say 4 12V batteries), you now
> have 24 cells in the string. It's more likely that some cells can be
> overvoltaged when charging batteries in series than when charging them
> in parallel.
Ok now I am confused with this one....
A 12 volt battery is 6 2.2volt cells (depending on battery type, it may
vary a bit)
I do not think it matters if their equilized in a string or in parallel, it
would stand to reason that the results would be the same. Besides, you are
over chargeing the battery bank during equilization anyway. Thats how you
bring up a weak cell in a battery bank, unless you have all 2 volt cells and
can charge each one, by itself when needed.
Correct me if I am wrong here...
Todd
You are correct. There are 1/2 as many connections in series as in
parallel. Testing charge levels by hydrometer is problematic with
sealed batteries.
>
>
>
> >> 2 Parallel strings - twice the maint.
>
> > Doing what?
>
> See above
>
>
>
> >> 3 parallel strings _ four times the maint.
>
> See above
I can see twice. I can't see the geometric progress. Please elaborate.
>
>
>
> > Doing what? And why is it climbing geometrically.
>
> It is a dirty, tedious, job. Try it some time with a large series/parallel battery bank
How large is a large bank?
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> I also have a question regarding the batteries in series. I've done
> >>> some experimenting with 3 and 4 of my 12V batteries in series being
> >>> charged directly from my auto alternator putting out say 38V across
> >>> the 3 or 50V across the 4. The batteries are all identical and about
> >>> the same age. They are not all necessarily at the same potential to
> >>> start. I found 1 of the batteries would quickly get up to 15V before
> >>> the others and so I would have to throttle back letting the others
> >>> (say at only 12.5 to 13.5) catch up. What kind of control systems are
> >>> available to detect this condition and control it?
> >> Several hours later they should all read the same (well as near as) if they don't then you have a
> >> problem. Look at your connections to start with.
>
> > If that's the case, then why doesn't the voltage across each cell
> > remain the same when fully charged? Why do I have to go through a
> > monthly equilization exercise if not to coax each cell back to being
> > the same?
>
> Because every battery is an individual. A good charge regulator will do the job just fine with a
> single series string of batteries and well enough for two parallel strings with a proper maintenance
> program.
Oh really? What is it about a good charge regulator that will do this?
How can it do it when it doesn't know charge (voltage) across
individual batteries in the series ... it only knows the voltage
across the whole string.
If I have a 4 battery string, what should my voltage be across it to
achieve equilization?
How will I know no battery in the string will exceed 15.2V when
equilization is in progress on that string?
>
> More parallel strings and you get more variation requiring longer equalization.
More variation of what?
>
>
>
> >> Many charge controllers have come and gone. The best charge controller is between your ears.
> >> Unfortunately the user manual was lost in the mail.
>
> > If you're going to be insulting, you shouldn't be stupid at the same
> > time George.
>
> Neither insulting nor stupid, everyone got a brain and no one got a manual. You either learn to use
> the tool or not, as the case may be.
That not withstanding, so far you've been both insulting and stupid in
your dialog.
>
> I monitor my system all the time and make adjustments to the reg for summer and winter.
What is the nature of you monitor? Do you know the voltage across each
battery at all times?
What adjustments do you make to the reg in summer and winter ... and
why?
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>>> What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
> >>>>> series string?
> >>>> The usual for home power would be 48V. I did meet a guy who had a 240volt system. Funny thing, he
> >>>> had a bunch of batteries in his trailer at the time. He wouldn't say what he was doing with his
> >>>> batteries but did mention that the ones in the trailer were to replace the ones that exploded in use.
> >>> So, what was he using as a 240+ volt source for charging? What was he
> >>> using for inverting that could take a 240V source?
> >> If you remember, eh did not say what he was doing with his batteries.
>
> > I didn't ask what he was doing with his batteries. I asked what he was
> > using to charge them. I then asked what he was using to tap that
> > charge (i.e. to invert from DC to AC). If you're going to be glib
> > George, at least pay attention.
>
> And I said he did not offer further information, at least pay attention.
You brought it up as support of a strategy of ever increasing length
of series strings as opposed to shorter series strings in parallel. If
that example goes nowhere, why did you bring it up?
>
>
>
> >>>>> Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
> >>>>> so, what is it?
> >>>> No, you can have an inverter custom built to suit.
> >>> And you think that's practical?
> >> It would depend on the application.
>
> > Oh really? Name an application where you have a new custom inverter
> > built to suit as the demands change.
>
> Oh really! Most people in the position of needing such a service will not follow the tried and true
> wankery followed by those who feel that a system should be sized to the bare minimum as determined
> by measuring loads at what they think they will run the load at.
So what factor of safety are you recommending?
Please point me to someone who can build me one of these customer
inverters.
Also, if you could point me to someone who can make me a customer buck
DC-DC converter I have need for that too.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>> Most people would use 12 - 24 - 48 volts. The
> >>>> rule of thumb is 12V for 1000Whrs 24V for 2000Whrs and 48V for 3000Whrs +. In reality these loads
> >>>> will have a fair amount of gray area in actual use.
> >>> What is the principle behind that rule of thumb? It seems to me a
> >>> better rule of thumb is to go as high in voltage as your charger and
> >>> inverter can support because the connecting wires are smaller and thus
> >>> the losses are lower. The downside is what you have to do to keep all
> >>> the cells in the system equalized.
> >> Cost and efficiency. What you want and what's true are not the same thing.
>
> > George. You completely evade my question. I asked "what's the
> > principle behind that rule of thumb". And your answer just hangs out
> > in air. It neither addresses my question nor my statement. What are
> > you doing George?
>
> Cost and efficiency. How many times do you have to be told something?
Once. But less than once doesn't help at all. Cost and efficiency are
not principles. A principle is something like "higher voltage systems
require smaller wire to deliver the same power".
>
>
>
> >>>>> What do I do when my capacity needs cause the single string to exceed
> >>>>> the input voltage specs of the inverters?
> >>>> See above. That said, it would not happen.
> >>> I saw the above. And it would happen. You even state that getting a
> >>> custom built inverter is practical. Do you then have that custom built
> >>> inverter rebuilt? Of course not!
> >> If it was cost effective for the job then it is practical.
>
> > And if it's not, you don't. And if it never is cost effective you
> > don't. Name a case where it's cost effective.
>
> Large grid feed. 240VDC in 240VAC out.
Please point me to such a system and its cost.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>> You can add all the batteries you want to what ever
> >>>> voltage but, you can only add capacity by using batteries with higher capacity. Changing the
> >>>> capacity of a single string of series batteries will not change the voltage and adding batteries to
> >>>> a single string will change the voltage but not add to the capacity.
> >>> Again ... absolute nonsense. If I have a 1 12V battery, 70AH string I
> >>> have 840Wh. If I have a 2 12V battery string, each with 70AH capacity,
> >>> I have 1.68kWh. I have doubled my capacity. I have doubled my voltage
> >>> if I put them in series. I have doubled my current if I put them in
> >>> parallel.
> >> No you still have only 70Ah capacity.
>
> > That's current capacity. But real battery capacity (or bank capacity)
> > is it's ability to store and deliver energy (power). And that power is
> > volts x current or watts. It stores charge. When that charge moves
> > over time it's called current. And when that move is caused by a
> > voltage differential it's called power. And battery capacity is both a
> > function of the charge it can deliver and voltage under which it
> > delivers it. Are you really this stupid George?
>
> No but you seem to be.
Your reply is not convincing.
>
> Battery capacity is measured in Amp Hours. Sorry but that is the way it is.
Correct, for a single battery. But a battery bank, whether connected
in series or parallel or a combination of each has a capacity that is
a direct function of the number of batteries.
>
> If you need 1000Ah of batteries at twelve volts then you would use 500Ah of batteries at 24 volts.
> Your watts stay the same, and the actual capacity in hours of use is the same.
There's where you're going wrong George. Needs are measured in Ah.
They measured in KwH. Such a measurement takes both amperage and
voltage into consideration.
>
> You see, this is the reason for using a higher voltage battery bank. It's called system sizing and
> determines the capacity of the battery required. It is usually worked out on days of autonomy.
Baloney. The reason for using a higher voltage battery bank is to use
smaller wire size. That's why transmission lines carry hundred of
kilovolts rather than 220V. It has nothing to do with system sizing.
The number of batteries, whether in series or in parallel has
everything to do with system sizing (as does the kWh delivery capacity
of each battery). The only reason you can talk about Ah ratings is you
are assuming a specific voltage (usually 12V but often 6). The true
capacity of the system is unknown until you specify both the Ah and
the voltage of the component batteries. The connection of those
batteries is irrelevant (unless you try to do something stupid like
connect a string of 4 in parallel with a string of 3).
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>>> Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
> >>>> No, they should be the "same" capacity to insure equal charging. That said I do know of a system, 23
> >>>> - 840Ah and 1 - 1000Ah that still works but the 1000Ah is always undercharged. The owner is saving
> >>>> for a new set of batteries. In a discussion such as this it would be wise to learn the difference
> >>>> between cells and batteries.
> >>> It would also be important to bring into the discussion the issues of
> >>> equalizing battery cells when the batteries are in series vs when they
> >>> are in parallel!!!
> >> Equalizing batteries is part and parcel with owning and using them, A good reg will do the job on a
> >> regular basis.
>
> > But equalization is complicated with a series string. You must assure
> > that no cell in the string gets too much voltage while the other cells
> > catch up. With batteries in parallel you never have more than 6 cells
> > in a string. With batteries in series (say 4 12V batteries), you now
> > have 24 cells in the string. It's more likely that some cells can be
> > overvoltaged when charging batteries in series than when charging them
> > in parallel.
>
> Oh yeah, real complicated. It happens every month, automatically.
Ok. I ask again. What voltage do you use across a string to achieve
equaliization?
How do you assure that no battery in the string has a voltage across
it of more than 15.2V (for 12 V batteries)?
How do you know when all batteries are at 15.2V so you can start the
equalization timer? (the rule on mine is 2 hours cumulative time at
15.2V)
>
> It would appear that you really are stupid. Your last statement is as worthless as the rest of your
> post.
Now George! This is an example of a worthless statement:
"Oh yeah, real complicated. It happens every month, automatically."
My equalization happens automatically every month too and I proceeded
to explain what "it" means in "it happens". You have not. If my
statement is worthless, yours isn't even on the radar.
Give me some detail of just what happens automatically every month
George. A good answer would tell me the number of volts in your
string; the voltage you put across your string to achieve
equalization; how long you maintain that voltage to achieve
equalization; how you assure that no battery in your string exceeds
15.2V; how you know when all batteries in your string are at 15.2V and
thus equalizing; how you detect that one of the batteries has fallen
below equalization voltage (as when the bank comes under load) and
thus your cumulative timer should be turned off until all batteries
are back to 15.2V.
If you evade this question again George I just consider your
participation in this dialog disingenuous and am happy to end it right
there as a total waste of time. So far your contribution has been less
than minimal.
Todd
> > But equalization is complicated with a series string. You must assure
> > that no cell in the string gets too much voltage while the other cells
> > catch up. With batteries in parallel you never have more than 6 cells
> > in a string. With batteries in series (say 4 12V batteries), you now
> > have 24 cells in the string. It's more likely that some cells can be
> > overvoltaged when charging batteries in series than when charging them
> > in parallel.
>
> Ok now I am confused with this one....
>
> A 12 volt battery is 6 2.2volt cells (depending on battery type, it may
> vary a bit)
>
> I do not think it matters if their equilized in a string or in parallel, it
> would stand to reason that the results would be the same.
It does matter. I've tried it. I've taken three 12V batteries and put
them in series. I've put 40V across the series. I've continuously
measured the voltage across each battery. One battery will leave the
rest and go over 15V while the other two are less than that but still
not equal to each other. I then have to throttle back my voltage to
let the other two catch up. Measuring the voltage across the series I
can't see that this is happening. I can only see it by constantly
measuring each battery individually.
> Besides, you are
> over chargeing the battery bank during equilization anyway.
Correct. But when you're at 15.2V (the equalization voltage
recommended by the manufacturer of my charge controller), each cell
within the battery is not at 2.53V. Some are above it and some are
below it. Someone has evidently figured out that no cell has too much
voltage across it during this 2 hour process. But when you put
batteries in series and one of the batteries gets over 15.2V (which it
easily can without you knowing it), then I presume you're likely going
to damage that battery.
> Thats how you
> bring up a weak cell in a battery bank, unless you have all 2 volt cells and
> can charge each one, by itself when needed.
My above explanation covers this.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong here...
You're not wrong in the case of a single battery or a battery bank in
parallel where you're controlling the voltage across all batteries at
the same time. But in a series string you can't control the voltage
across all batteries at the same time. You can only control the
voltage across the string and such control should be guided by the
voltage across the highest voltage battery in the string. Try it and
see for yourself.
philkryder
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 06:25:43 -0000, philkryder <alt.goo...@Kryder.com>
Wayne - thank you for your help.
>.... Meanwhile
> knowledgeable posters will be less likely to spend time helping you
> when they can see that you value gibberish as highly as thoughtful
> opinions.
I try to let posts of others speak for themselves.
Often, critiques can be mis-interpreted and sometimes lead to
interpersonal confrontations, rather than discussions of the
issues....
Thus I try to limit myself to brief comments and asking clarifying
questions.
Do, you think it would be more helpful if I were to denigrate some
posts?
Would I then get better responses?
> ... then you should get an opinion from a genuine
> professional.
I started with professionals here locally.
One suggested that I "rewire the motors to 240 volt as that would cut
the power requirements in half..."
Do you think this was a useful suggestion?
I've found this newsgroup very helpful.
I've learned a lot.
Phil
beemerwacker
>
> Oh, Christ no. PV can be economical for any size system. But only the user can make the
> choice according to their needs.
>
>
>
> > Is there some "sweet spot" that you have observed?
> > What is the Kwh size of that sweet spot?
>
Come on George. You started your typical crap by telling everyone that
if you buy a 45 watt kit that, what was the term? "the truth will not
be allowed to get in the way." and now it's "any size system". Keep
the story straight. You're much more entertaining when you stick to
your original plot without meandering.
I believe the entire quote is:
"SELF DELUSION; This is a big trap for for many people. It works like
this, a person decides that he would like to use solar power. This
person has a preconceived idea of solar power based on what they have
been told by someone in a pub, seen on TV or just wishful thinking. It
really doesn't matter where the info comes from. What matters is that
it is, nine times out of ten, utter nonsense. The problem is that the
person wants to believe this information. Why do they want to believe
what is patently rubbish. Well, the main reason is that it suits their
idea of how things should work. They
want to believe that all they need is a golf cart battery and a couple
of fifteen watt Harbor
Freight panels and they will have free power for life. It's true, they
will believe what makes them
feel good, and the truth will not be allowed to get in the way. "
Hey, BTW how do you like being on television? The audience gets a
great laugh in each episode.
philkryder
the part that I still haven't seen is how ANY pv is cost effective at
todays prices for Propane, Generators, PV and batteries.
It seems that PV with battery storage isn't even going to save enough
to pay the interest on the installation.
So, therefore it seems that it would be a loss for us to buy ANY PV.
Do you see some (or any) amount that would be cost effective?
Anthony Matonak
...
> I started with professionals here locally.
> One suggested that I "rewire the motors to 240 volt as that would cut
> the power requirements in half..."
> Do you think this was a useful suggestion?
Changing the motors from 120V to 240V would not reduce the power
requirement (Watts) but it would cut in half the current (Amps).
Wiring loss is based on amperage so fewer amps means less loss
even though the same amount of power is being used. This is why
long distance electric wiring is all high voltage. It only really
makes a significant difference in long runs of wires or where you
need lots of power. This is why most electric stoves, ovens and
clothes dryers are 240V. They need lots of watts.
Inverters are also somewhat based on amperage. It's possible that
a 240V inverter would be cheaper than a similar wattage 120V.
Some stuff can work on 120V or 240V by flipping a switch or some
simple adjustment. If your motors/tools don't have this option
then I wouldn't recommend messing with them.
If your professional was suggesting rewinding the motors then I
would run away. While this can be done, it's not something I
would recommend to just anyone.
Anthony
Anthony Matonak
...
> the part that I still haven't seen is how ANY pv is cost effective at
> todays prices for Propane, Generators, PV and batteries.
>
> It seems that PV with battery storage isn't even going to save enough
> to pay the interest on the installation.
>
> So, therefore it seems that it would be a loss for us to buy ANY PV.
> Do you see some (or any) amount that would be cost effective?
It all depends on how you value things, doesn't it?
Generators can produce a lot of noise and require regular maintenance.
Delivery and storage of fuels can be difficult, expensive or both in
some locations.
Sometimes just getting rid of the noise of a generator is worth it.
Anthony
philkryder
Sure.
I'm sure that there exist non-monetary things that one could assign
any economic value to and thereby make anything cost effective.
One might reasonably ascribe an aesthetic value to having PV to look
at, or to telling ones friends that one has it.
Or more practically, to being able to just turn a switch and have
power without the need for starting a generator or changing oil or
buying fuel. But, even so, there are issues of battery life and
maintenance and expandability as evidenced by the lively discussion
throughout this thread.
But, my question is more related to just comparing the pure economic
costs rather than the aesthetic value.
Propane is easily delivered to our site and stored.
Noise is attenuated by generator location.
Others might reach other conclusions in other circumstances with other
aesthetics.
If PV isn't cost effective off-grid today and if PV costs are expected
to decline while fuel costs are expected to rise, then why not just
wait until the cost benefit is clear?
George Ghio
Which is why so many people who are off grid use propane and PV
In my case the cost of PV was $10,000 compared to $36,000 for a grid connection.
>
> It seems that PV with battery storage isn't even going to save enough
> to pay the interest on the installation.
As i pointed out, the only person who can decide if it is worth it is the person paying for it.
>
> So, therefore it seems that it would be a loss for us to buy ANY PV.
If that is how you perceive it then you would not go that route.
>
> Do you see some (or any) amount that would be cost effective?
Can't say as I have not seen your energy audit.
There is a printing business in out back NSW.The owner put in solar for his office and left the
presses on the grid. He got tired of his computers crashing when some one a hundred miles away
turned on their AC.(Actually it was more than one)
In the end only you can decide. Fuel will keep going up in price and at some stage will be reserved
for defense and food production.
If you outline your energy use item by item (energy audit) I may be able to give you a better idea
as to you can turn over some of your use to PV for a price.
George Ghio
>> Oh, Christ no. PV can be economical for any size system. But only the user can make the
>> choice according to their needs.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Is there some "sweet spot" that you have observed?
>>> What is the Kwh size of that sweet spot?
>
> Come on George. You started your typical crap by telling everyone that
> if you buy a 45 watt kit that, what was the term? "the truth will not
> be allowed to get in the way." and now it's "any size system". Keep
> the story straight. You're much more entertaining when you stick to
> your original plot without meandering.
Sorry, but both statements are the truth. A toy system can be cost effective as a toy and a real
well designed system can be cost effective for the purpose it is built.
Grow up. The relevant part of the quote that you misrepresent is;
> They want to believe that all they need is a golf cart battery and a couple
> of fifteen watt Harbor Freight panels and they will have free power for life. It's true, they
> will believe what makes them feel good, and the truth will not be allowed to get in the way."
The quote is about believing what makes a person feel good as opposed to accepting the truth. People
who only believe what makes them feel good are self delusional.
>
> I believe the entire quote is:
>
> "SELF DELUSION; This is a big trap for for many people. It works like
> this, a person decides that he would like to use solar power. This
> person has a preconceived idea of solar power based on what they have
> been told by someone in a pub, seen on TV or just wishful thinking. It
> really doesn't matter where the info comes from. What matters is that
> it is, nine times out of ten, utter nonsense. The problem is that the
> person wants to believe this information. Why do they want to believe
> what is patently rubbish. Well, the main reason is that it suits their
> idea of how things should work. They
> want to believe that all they need is a golf cart battery and a couple
> of fifteen watt Harbor
> Freight panels and they will have free power for life. It's true, they
> will believe what makes them
> feel good, and the truth will not be allowed to get in the way. "
>
> Hey, BTW how do you like being on television? The audience gets a
> great laugh in each episode.
>
--
George Ghio
If you can't see it now, than you will never see it.
>
>>
>>
>>> Doing what? And why is it climbing geometrically.
>> It is a dirty, tedious, job. Try it some time with a large series/parallel battery bank
>
> How large is a large bank?
Six parallel strings of six 2V 500Ah cells.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> I also have a question regarding the batteries in series. I've done
>>>>> some experimenting with 3 and 4 of my 12V batteries in series being
>>>>> charged directly from my auto alternator putting out say 38V across
>>>>> the 3 or 50V across the 4. The batteries are all identical and about
>>>>> the same age. They are not all necessarily at the same potential to
>>>>> start. I found 1 of the batteries would quickly get up to 15V before
>>>>> the others and so I would have to throttle back letting the others
>>>>> (say at only 12.5 to 13.5) catch up. What kind of control systems are
>>>>> available to detect this condition and control it?
>>>> Several hours later they should all read the same (well as near as) if they don't then you have a
>>>> problem. Look at your connections to start with.
>>> If that's the case, then why doesn't the voltage across each cell
>>> remain the same when fully charged? Why do I have to go through a
>>> monthly equilization exercise if not to coax each cell back to being
>>> the same?
>> Because every battery is an individual. A good charge regulator will do the job just fine with a
>> single series string of batteries and well enough for two parallel strings with a proper maintenance
>> program.
>
> Oh really? What is it about a good charge regulator that will do this?
> How can it do it when it doesn't know charge (voltage) across
> individual batteries in the series ... it only knows the voltage
> across the whole string.
Well, I, as do most people who use a correctly designed system, have only one battery.
>
> If I have a 4 battery string, what should my voltage be across it to
> achieve equilization?
Well, to start with, if you have 4 batteries you you have designed incorrectly. Also you fail to
provide correct information. What are the batteries?
>
> How will I know no battery in the string will exceed 15.2V when
> equilization is in progress on that string?
Again, lack of correct information. What are your batteries?
>
>
>> More parallel strings and you get more variation requiring longer equalization.
>
> More variation of what?
The test was done using a bank of 2V cells. Six parallel strings of six batteries in series.
The test was preformed at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology.
All the cells and strings were monitored during charging and discharging. It was found that parallel
strings did not all charge/discharge at the same time, but rather that a string would charge for a
time then another string would charge then another and another and another. In the end the strings
may or may not be fully charged or even be close to the same state of charge. It was also found that
there were large current flows between strings. In some cases large enough to exceed the cabling specs.
This is not my fault. It is just the way that parallel strings of batteries work. It also explains
why maint of parallel strings is a geometric progression.
You may of course do as you wish.
>
>>
>>
>>>> Many charge controllers have come and gone. The best charge controller is between your ears.
>>>> Unfortunately the user manual was lost in the mail.
>>> If you're going to be insulting, you shouldn't be stupid at the same
>>> time George.
>> Neither insulting nor stupid, everyone got a brain and no one got a manual. You either learn to use
>> the tool or not, as the case may be.
>
> That not withstanding, so far you've been both insulting and stupid in
> your dialog.
The funny thing is, that if you post a generalized insult about ability, There is always someone who
will put up their hand and say "Hey, that's me. Hang on, you can't talk about me like that."
There by they condemn themselves.
>
>> I monitor my system all the time and make adjustments to the reg for summer and winter.
>
> What is the nature of you monitor? Do you know the voltage across each
> battery at all times?
Yes I know the voltage across my battery.
>
> What adjustments do you make to the reg in summer and winter ... and
> why?
Colder batteries will take a harder charge
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>> What is the voltage limit that I can practically install in a single
>>>>>>> series string?
>>>>>> The usual for home power would be 48V. I did meet a guy who had a 240volt system. Funny thing, he
>>>>>> had a bunch of batteries in his trailer at the time. He wouldn't say what he was doing with his
>>>>>> batteries but did mention that the ones in the trailer were to replace the ones that exploded in use.
>>>>> So, what was he using as a 240+ volt source for charging? What was he
>>>>> using for inverting that could take a 240V source?
>>>> If you remember, eh did not say what he was doing with his batteries.
>>> I didn't ask what he was doing with his batteries. I asked what he was
>>> using to charge them. I then asked what he was using to tap that
>>> charge (i.e. to invert from DC to AC). If you're going to be glib
>>> George, at least pay attention.
>> And I said he did not offer further information, at least pay attention.
>
> You brought it up as support of a strategy of ever increasing length
> of series strings as opposed to shorter series strings in parallel. If
> that example goes nowhere, why did you bring it up?
It happened. Unlike some of you drivel.
>
>>
>>
>>>>>>> Is there a practical limit to the input voltage to the inverters? If
>>>>>>> so, what is it?
>>>>>> No, you can have an inverter custom built to suit.
>>>>> And you think that's practical?
>>>> It would depend on the application.
>>> Oh really? Name an application where you have a new custom inverter
>>> built to suit as the demands change.
>> Oh really! Most people in the position of needing such a service will not follow the tried and true
>> wankery followed by those who feel that a system should be sized to the bare minimum as determined
>> by measuring loads at what they think they will run the load at.
>
> So what factor of safety are you recommending?
None. It is the choice of the designer and is relevant to the needs and use of the system.
>
> Please point me to someone who can build me one of these customer
> inverters.
>
> Also, if you could point me to someone who can make me a customer buck
> DC-DC converter I have need for that too.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> Most people would use 12 - 24 - 48 volts. The
>>>>>> rule of thumb is 12V for 1000Whrs 24V for 2000Whrs and 48V for 3000Whrs +. In reality these loads
>>>>>> will have a fair amount of gray area in actual use.
>>>>> What is the principle behind that rule of thumb? It seems to me a
>>>>> better rule of thumb is to go as high in voltage as your charger and
>>>>> inverter can support because the connecting wires are smaller and thus
>>>>> the losses are lower. The downside is what you have to do to keep all
>>>>> the cells in the system equalized.
>>>> Cost and efficiency. What you want and what's true are not the same thing.
>>> George. You completely evade my question. I asked "what's the
>>> principle behind that rule of thumb". And your answer just hangs out
>>> in air. It neither addresses my question nor my statement. What are
>>> you doing George?
>> Cost and efficiency. How many times do you have to be told something?
>
> Once. But less than once doesn't help at all. Cost and efficiency are
> not principles. A principle is something like "higher voltage systems
> require smaller wire to deliver the same power".
Cost and efficiency is what drives the choices most people make about everything.
>
>>
>>
>>>>>>> What do I do when my capacity needs cause the single string to exceed
>>>>>>> the input voltage specs of the inverters?
>>>>>> See above. That said, it would not happen.
>>>>> I saw the above. And it would happen. You even state that getting a
>>>>> custom built inverter is practical. Do you then have that custom built
>>>>> inverter rebuilt? Of course not!
>>>> If it was cost effective for the job then it is practical.
>>> And if it's not, you don't. And if it never is cost effective you
>>> don't. Name a case where it's cost effective.
>> Large grid feed. 240VDC in 240VAC out.
>
> Please point me to such a system and its cost.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> You can add all the batteries you want to what ever
>>>>>> voltage but, you can only add capacity by using batteries with higher capacity. Changing the
>>>>>> capacity of a single string of series batteries will not change the voltage and adding batteries to
>>>>>> a single string will change the voltage but not add to the capacity.
>>>>> Again ... absolute nonsense. If I have a 1 12V battery, 70AH string I
>>>>> have 840Wh. If I have a 2 12V battery string, each with 70AH capacity,
>>>>> I have 1.68kWh. I have doubled my capacity. I have doubled my voltage
>>>>> if I put them in series. I have doubled my current if I put them in
>>>>> parallel.
>>>> No you still have only 70Ah capacity.
>>> That's current capacity. But real battery capacity (or bank capacity)
>>> is it's ability to store and deliver energy (power). And that power is
>>> volts x current or watts. It stores charge. When that charge moves
>>> over time it's called current. And when that move is caused by a
>>> voltage differential it's called power. And battery capacity is both a
>>> function of the charge it can deliver and voltage under which it
>>> delivers it. Are you really this stupid George?
>> No but you seem to be.
>
> Your reply is not convincing.
Believe what you like or make you feel good, it won't make any difference to the truth.
>
>> Battery capacity is measured in Amp Hours. Sorry but that is the way it is.
>
> Correct, for a single battery. But a battery bank, whether connected
> in series or parallel or a combination of each has a capacity that is
> a direct function of the number of batteries.
Ah, A battery bank is just a battery by definition.
>
>> If you need 1000Ah of batteries at twelve volts then you would use 500Ah of batteries at 24 volts.
>> Your watts stay the same, and the actual capacity in hours of use is the same.
>
> There's where you're going wrong George. Needs are measured in Ah.
> They measured in KwH. Such a measurement takes both amperage and
> voltage into consideration.
Would you like to try that again.
System capacity is measured in kWh.
Battery capacity is measured in Ah
They are not the same thing. The batteries are a component, the system is the whole.
>
>> You see, this is the reason for using a higher voltage battery bank. It's called system sizing and
>> determines the capacity of the battery required. It is usually worked out on days of autonomy.
>
> Baloney. The reason for using a higher voltage battery bank is to use
> smaller wire size.
What an ignorant little twat. And yes that is an insult.
> That's why transmission lines carry hundred of
> kilovolts rather than 220V. It has nothing to do with system sizing.
Choosing the correct wire size is an important part of system sizing.
> The number of batteries, whether in series or in parallel has
> everything to do with system sizing (as does the kWh delivery capacity
> of each battery).
Amp hour capacity of each battery
> The only reason you can talk about Ah ratings is you
> are assuming a specific voltage (usually 12V but often 6). The true
> capacity of the system is unknown until you specify both the Ah and
> the voltage of the component batteries.
Not at all. The true capacity of the system is known when you have completed your energy audit.
The connection of those
> batteries is irrelevant (unless you try to do something stupid like
> connect a string of 4 in parallel with a string of 3).
Again you are wrong. Series connections are the first choice, parallel or series/parallel are only
the second choice.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>> Must all the batteries have similar cell capacity?
>>>>>> No, they should be the "same" capacity to insure equal charging. That said I do know of a system, 23
>>>>>> - 840Ah and 1 - 1000Ah that still works but the 1000Ah is always undercharged. The owner is saving
>>>>>> for a new set of batteries. In a discussion such as this it would be wise to learn the difference
>>>>>> between cells and batteries.
>>>>> It would also be important to bring into the discussion the issues of
>>>>> equalizing battery cells when the batteries are in series vs when they
>>>>> are in parallel!!!
>>>> Equalizing batteries is part and parcel with owning and using them, A good reg will do the job on a
>>>> regular basis.
>>> But equalization is complicated with a series string. You must assure
>>> that no cell in the string gets too much voltage while the other cells
>>> catch up. With batteries in parallel you never have more than 6 cells
>>> in a string. With batteries in series (say 4 12V batteries), you now
>>> have 24 cells in the string. It's more likely that some cells can be
>>> overvoltaged when charging batteries in series than when charging them
>>> in parallel.
>> Oh yeah, real complicated. It happens every month, automatically.
>
> Ok. I ask again. What voltage do you use across a string to achieve
> equaliization?
17V
>
> How do you assure that no battery in the string has a voltage across
> it of more than 15.2V (for 12 V batteries)?
I don't.
>
> How do you know when all batteries are at 15.2V so you can start the
> equalization timer? (the rule on mine is 2 hours cumulative time at
> 15.2V)
My regulator does it.
>
>> It would appear that you really are stupid. Your last statement is as worthless as the rest of your
>> post.
>
> Now George! This is an example of a worthless statement:
> "Oh yeah, real complicated. It happens every month, automatically."
It is a true statement.
>
> My equalization happens automatically every month too and I proceeded
> to explain what "it" means in "it happens". You have not. If my
> statement is worthless, yours isn't even on the radar.
It is quite clear that my regulator does the job once a month. Despite your out of context quote.
>
> Give me some detail of just what happens automatically every month
> George. A good answer would tell me the number of volts in your
> string; the voltage you put across your string to achieve
> equalization; how long you maintain that voltage to achieve
> equalization; how you assure that no battery in your string exceeds
> 15.2V; how you know when all batteries in your string are at 15.2V and
> thus equalizing; how you detect that one of the batteries has fallen
> below equalization voltage (as when the bank comes under load) and
> thus your cumulative timer should be turned off until all batteries
> are back to 15.2V.
12V string of 2V 840Ah cells.
Every month my reg runs the voltage to 17V
I am not restricted to your 15.2V
Equalization take place during the day.
No large loads at the time.
>
> If you evade this question again George I just consider your
> participation in this dialog disingenuous and am happy to end it right
> there as a total waste of time. So far your contribution has been less
> than minimal.
But far greater than your ability to understand and much more correct than your misinformation.
Ya all have a nice day now.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that you denigrate anyone. Here's the thing - when
someone makes repeated and egregious mistakes over a period of years
and refuses to accept correction, that's waaaay over the line between
innocent mistake (which we all make occasionally) and incompetence. A
word like incompetence shouldn't be used lightly, but a supposed
professional who needs amateurs to remind him that 1.6kW can't produce
70kWh per day useable is surely deserving. When that level of
incompetence is frequently accompanied by outrageous personal attacks
on those who correct the errors, then denigration is well deserved and
helps prevents folks like you wasting time with "sizings" that are 18X
wrong. If you prefer having such advice "speak for itself" rather than
reading anything negative then that's your privilege, but it's the
group's loss. For example, it's very confusing for novices to read
that 70 kWh per week, which most grid folks would consider a hardship,
might require 1.6kW, or 10kW, or 52kW, or whatever other GIGO numbers
might come before this thread is over.
>> ... then you should get an opinion from a genuine
>> professional.
>
>I started with professionals here locally.
>One suggested that I "rewire the motors to 240 volt as that would cut
>the power requirements in half..."
>Do you think this was a useful suggestion?
Of course not. Fortunately you realized the advice was goofy. But it
could happen (and has) that you wouldn't be able to tell. Wouldn't it
be nice if all the professional advice you received could be vetted by
knowledgeable folks? Or would you rather not have that vetting if it
might get negative?
>I've found this newsgroup very helpful.
>I've learned a lot.
Glad to hear it, and I hope that one of the things you've learned is
that calculating system size is easy.... for some of us anyway. ;-)
Previously I gave you contact information for genuine professionals
who were close by. Here's one that's too far away from your location
to sell you anything so you won't have to worry that their advice is
based on making a sale. http://www.leboise.com/Contact.html I'll even
predict they won't need amateurs to remind them that expanding a
system with modular hardware is preferable to having 5 separate
setups.
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>the part that I still haven't seen is how ANY pv is cost effective at
>todays prices for Propane, Generators, PV and batteries.
>
>It seems that PV with battery storage isn't even going to save enough
>to pay the interest on the installation.
>
>So, therefore it seems that it would be a loss for us to buy ANY PV.
There isn't any way to reach that conclusion until you've established
how big an installation is required. I'm thinking that in your case
switching to PV will be like paying for your fuel perhaps ten years in
advance. Whether you stick with fuel burning or switch to alternative
energy, any money you're willing to spend should go first toward
upgrading to more efficient loads.
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>Hey, BTW how do you <ghio> like being on television? The audience gets a
>great laugh in each episode.
I'd like to know how his crayon-on-paper bag missive made it into the
US. Somebody at Homeland Security must be sleeping on the job. If CSI:
Saline isn't too busy finding the real Simpson slayer, perhaps they
could look into it. :-)
Wayne
beemerwacker
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:40:11 -0000, beemerwacker <43.kit...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Hey, BTW how do you <ghio> like being on television? The audience gets a
> >great laugh in each episode.
>
> I'd like to know how his crayon-on-paper bag missive made it into the
> US. Somebody at Homeland Security must be sleeping on the job. If CSI:
> Saline isn't too busy finding the real Simpson slayer, perhaps they
> could look into it. :-)
>
> Wayne
Well, they (DHS) looked it over and didn't find anything worth being
concerned over. The CSI department here in Saline is tracking down who
returned a non-returnable bottle to the local party store so they have
a full plate at the moment.
R.H. Allen
When you say "pure economic" do you mean to limit discussion only to the
amount of money exchanged? I don't think you can do that and still have
a meaningful conversation, though. For one thing, it implicitly sets to
zero the value of anything without a price tag, which encompasses many
things that are much more fundamental than aesthetics (such as one's
time). Second, any economist will tell you that spending decisions are
rarely made on the basis of price alone, and that those things whose
value you set to zero actually have non-zero value in most people's
decision-making processes. A Ford Focus is cheaper than a Mazda 3 and
both cars will take you to all the same places, but nobody is going to
buy a Focus on the basis of that information alone.
I'm not saying that the price of a kWh from a generator versus that from
a PV system isn't important -- obviously, it is very important -- but
few people will make that the sole factor in their choice between the
two. In fact, the smaller the difference between the two, the smaller
the role of money in the decision. In many respects, the decision is all
about how one values the non-monetary aspects of each system (and all of
us will do that differently).
> Propane is easily delivered to our site and stored.
> Noise is attenuated by generator location.
>
> Others might reach other conclusions in other circumstances with other
> aesthetics.
> If PV isn't cost effective off-grid today and if PV costs are expected
> to decline while fuel costs are expected to rise, then why not just
> wait until the cost benefit is clear?
Depending on how I value all the things that you have evidently valued
at zero, the cost benefit might already be clear to me. For me
personally, if I have an off-grid home powered by a generator, I will
hate it and I will never want to be there. It has nothing to do with my
enthusiasm for PV, it has to do with my hatred of generators -- I'd
actually prefer an off-grid home with no electricity to one with a
generator. Most people aren't so extreme on this point, I admit, but
many are willing to pay a premium of some sort to avoid certain aspects
of generator ownership. Others, of course, have no problem with
generators, and there are probably those suspicious of new technology
that will continue to use generators long after more economical options
are available.
FWIW, I'm taking you at your word that generators are cheaper -- I
haven't seen or performed any calculations myself. And I *do* believe
you. However, the reason construction companies most often cite for
switching from generator-based electronic road signs to PV-based road
signs is that the life cycle and/or operating cost is lower for the
PV-based signs. Granted, they're using generators that run 24/7,
sometimes for months at a time, and are refueled and maintained by
employees that require money in exchange for their services, so there
*are* difference with respect to the usual off-grid home. I only offer
it as food for thought....
You
Todd <To...@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
> You are correct. There are 1/2 as many connections in series as in
> parallel. Testing charge levels by hydrometer is problematic with
> sealed batteries.
That's why the Professionals use a Battery Impedance Tester to determine
the health of Commercial Battery Banks, in the 21st Century....
Todd
> >>> required, what is that care doing?
> >> Largely checking connections and charge levels with a hydrometer.
>
> > You are correct. There are 1/2 as many connections in series as in
> > parallel. Testing charge levels by hydrometer is problematic with
> > sealed batteries.
>
> >>>> 2 Parallel strings - twice the maint.
> >>> Doing what?
> >> See above
>
> >>>> 3 parallel strings _ four times the maint.
> >> See above
>
> > I can see twice. I can't see the geometric progress. Please elaborate.
>
> If you can't see it now, than you will never see it.
Trust me. I have always been able to see things that are visible, if
not always in the beginning. It's the invisible that I've never been
able to see ... and which has predominated the things I confess not to
be in able to see. So, since you're a formula guy, give me the
formula. Maybe that will help me see.
>
>
>
> >>> Doing what? And why is it climbing geometrically.
> >> It is a dirty, tedious, job. Try it some time with a large series/parallel battery bank
>
> > How large is a large bank?
>
> Six parallel strings of six 2V 500Ah cells.
You describe 6 12V 500Ah batteries in parallel, presumably with access
to the individual 2V cells. I have 10 12V 70Ah batteries in parallel
without access to the individual cells. But all other issues must be
the same since you're not putting your charge controller across
individual cells but rather across the parallel connection. Why didn't
you go with just one 12V 3000 Ah battery (i.e. one string of 6 2V
3000Ah cells) if your method is so good? And why did you introduce
that nonsense about the guy with a 240V string if yours in only 12V.
Where are your principles George?
> > Oh really? What is it about a good charge regulator that will do this?
> > How can it do it when it doesn't know charge (voltage) across
> > individual batteries in the series ... it only knows the voltage
> > across the whole string.
>
> Well, I, as do most people who use a correctly designed system, have only one battery.
You just described your system as having 36 batteries. 6 strings of 6
2V, 500Ah batteries is 36 batteries isn't it? And by the way, isn't
that also 30+ connections that you have?
> > If I have a 4 battery string, what should my voltage be across it to
> > achieve equilization?
>
> Well, to start with, if you have 4 batteries you you have designed incorrectly. Also you fail to
> provide correct information. What are the batteries?
Just plain old O'Reilly 12V 70Ah car batteries. Give me some detail to
support your claim that this design is incorrect or that yours
(effectively 6 12V batteries (3kWh) vs my 10 12V batteries (0.7kWh)
is correct.
So now, rather than avoiding my question, you have more than enough
information to answer it. Of course you had enough information to
deliver an answer (or at least a principle) without this additional
information.
>
>
>
> > How will I know no battery in the string will exceed 15.2V when
> > equilization is in progress on that string?
>
> Again, lack of correct information. What are your batteries?
See above. Or better yet, use your own configuration because from a
standpoint of principles it is identical to mine.
>
>
>
> >> More parallel strings and you get more variation requiring longer equalization.
>
> > More variation of what?
>
> The test was done using a bank of 2V cells. Six parallel strings of six batteries in series.
>
> The test was preformed at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology.
This is nothing but equalizing parallel 12V batteries and watching the
current into each battery (the voltage across each is identical). Who
cares how it reaches steady state as no activity is required ... just
time.
>
> All the cells and strings were monitored during charging and discharging. It was found that parallel
> strings did not all charge/discharge at the same time, but rather that a string would charge for a
> time then another string would charge then another and another and another. In the end the strings
> may or may not be fully charged or even be close to the same state of charge. It was also found that
> there were large current flows between strings. In some cases large enough to exceed the cabling specs.
So, did they run a similar test with batteries in series and monitor
the voltage across the batteries (in such a test the current through
each battery would be identical)?
>
> This is not my fault. It is just the way that parallel strings of batteries work. It also explains
> why maint of parallel strings is a geometric progression.
It explains nothing. Tell me about the test on series batteries and
then maybe we can make something out of it.
>
> You may of course do as you wish.
I am really trying to learn something from you George. So far I'm
coming up really empty. You evade my direct questions claiming you
don't have enough information. Such people are called "bluffers".
>
>
>
> >>>> Many charge controllers have come and gone. The best charge controller is between your ears.
> >>>> Unfortunately the user manual was lost in the mail.
> >>> If you're going to be insulting, you shouldn't be stupid at the same
> >>> time George.
> >> Neither insulting nor stupid, everyone got a brain and no one got a manual. You either learn to use
> >> the tool or not, as the case may be.
>
> > That not withstanding, so far you've been both insulting and stupid in
> > your dialog.
>
> The funny thing is, that if you post a generalized insult about ability, There is always someone who
> will put up their hand and say "Hey, that's me. Hang on, you can't talk about me like that."
I can if you can't defend yourself. So far, George, you've proved
yourself defenseless.
>
> There by they condemn themselves.
Who? The one claiming to be insulted or the one being accused of
being the insulter?
>
>
>
> >> I monitor my system all the time and make adjustments to the reg for summer and winter.
>
> > What is the nature of you monitor? Do you know the voltage across each
> > battery at all times?
>
> Yes I know the voltage across my battery.
The battery you describe is actually 36 batteries. If that's not your
battery, what is the description of your battery?
>
>
>
> > What adjustments do you make to the reg in summer and winter ... and
> > why?
>
> Colder batteries will take a harder charge
True. But what adjustments do you make. Do you raise the charging
voltage?
> > You brought it up as support of a strategy of ever increasing length
> > of series strings as opposed to shorter series strings in parallel. If
> > that example goes nowhere, why did you bring it up?
>
> It happened. Unlike some of you drivel.
I've offered no drivel. Everything I've offered is factual, direct,
and non-evasive. You, on the other hand, have been very evasive when
it comes to facts and the principles you espouse.
> >> Oh really! Most people in the position of needing such a service will not follow the tried and true
> >> wankery followed by those who feel that a system should be sized to the bare minimum as determined
> >> by measuring loads at what they think they will run the load at.
>
> > So what factor of safety are you recommending?
>
> None. It is the choice of the designer and is relevant to the needs and use of the system.
So you're not a designer? You're being evasive again George. You're a
bluffer.
> > Please point me to someone who can build me one of these customer
> > inverters.
>
> > Also, if you could point me to someone who can make me a custom buck
> > DC-DC converter I have need for that too.
>
> Google
http://www.powerstream.com/dcdc.htm
Not much help. Who do you use George? Or are you just being evasive
again?
> >> Cost and efficiency. How many times do you have to be told something?
>
> > Once. But less than once doesn't help at all. Cost and efficiency are
> > not principles. A principle is something like "higher voltage systems
>
> ...
>
> read more »
Again George, you're being evasive. Tell me what should be at the top
of my reading list.
Todd
> In article <1182208929.103827.327...@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Todd <T...@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
> > You are correct. There are 1/2 as many connections in series as in
> > parallel. Testing charge levels by hydrometer is problematic with
> > sealed batteries.
>
> That's why the Professionals use a Battery Impedance Tester to determine
> the health of Commercial Battery Banks, in the 21st Century....
Please enlighten me about these battery impedance testers.
I tried googling for it and come up with things like:
http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/459097
It's just a lot of marketing double talk.
Battery impedance is not a 21st century concept ... it's a 19th
century concept or earlier. Quite simply it's voltage divided by
current. Not exactly rocket science is it?
And are they using them to determine the health of the batteries or
are they using them to acquire data used in a charging regimen ... or
both?
George Ghio
No. I described a large battery bank in answer to your question.
>
>>> If I have a 4 battery string, what should my voltage be across it to
>>> achieve equilization?
>> Well, to start with, if you have 4 batteries you you have designed incorrectly. Also you fail to
>> provide correct information. What are the batteries?
>
> Just plain old O'Reilly 12V 70Ah car batteries. Give me some detail to
> support your claim that this design is incorrect or that yours
> (effectively 6 12V batteries (3kWh) vs my 10 12V batteries (0.7kWh)
> is correct.
Well that explains a lot about your ability to design and build a system. You sir are a child
playing with a toy. Given this information it is obvious that there is no point in taking the matter
any further.
Ya all have a nice day now.
>
--
beemerwacker
> Well that explains a lot about your ability to design and build a system. You sir are a child
> playing with a toy. Given this information it is obvious that there is no point in taking the matter
> any further.
>
George,
Can you just one time actually explain something without the insults?
Just assume the guy doesn't know the difference between deep cycle,
automotive batteries, parallel and series connections. Your initial
diatribe was such a good start too.
Never mind. What our friend George is trying to get to is that car
batteries (no matter the brand or size) are not the best choice for a
deeply cycled (past say, 10% discharged) system. The reason is
primarily that automotive batteries are designed for one single
purpose and that is to provide a sharp, short high output discharges.
Deep cycle batteries on the other hand are specifically designed for
long, low discharges.
Now that isn't to say that you *couldn't* use automotive batteries for
short term usage - say in an emergency - but it's not a good idea to
use them long term.
Additionally, there are design differences between automotive
(starting) and deep cycle batteries that I'm sure George can explain
to you after he gets done calling me names. Make it good George, I've
got to get you in the next episode - I'm on a deadline here. I've got
the bag and crayon ready to transcribe it for you to save the overseas
postage.
philkryder
Thanks.
I'm not sure aesthetics is the best word to group all those things -
such as your dislike for generators and difference between Mazdas and
BMWs.
I meant it only as a shorthand for "all non-economic" issues.
Your example of the road signs sure hit home.
And it reminds me of my earlier question about "sweet spots."
I think it likely that in very small installations like the signs and
PV walkway lights, that the PV may have a real sweat spot. Especially
if there is no need for AC conversion.
Phil
George Ghio
Shall we take it as read that;
"Come on George. You started your typical crap by telling everyone that
if you buy a 45 watt kit that, what was the term? "the truth will not
be allowed to get in the way." and now it's "any size system". Keep
the story straight. You're much more entertaining when you stick to
your original plot without meandering."
Is not only a personal attack but also totally without substance and is nothing more than a deception.
And now to come to the defense of poor little Todd, as if I have been unfair to him, and hold his
hand after his traumatic ordeal is priceless comedy.
The truth is that Todd has a reading and comprehension problem.
Is unable to tell the difference between system capacity and battery capacity.
And cobbled together a laughable battery set that is a sad attempt to be a player in solar and now
wants to redefine all the standard industry definitions.
So you, who are caught in the act of character assassination by deliberately misrepresenting what I
said, can now hold Little Todd's hand and comfort him in his hour of need.
When he stops crying and feels better you can change his diaper, wipe his snotty nose and send him
home to his mommy.
And as has been said:
I hope your mother bites you when you get back to your kennel.
Now, I believe that that is the correct way to insult someone.
You
Todd <To...@WithGLEE.com> wrote:
Battery Internal Impedance is measured by these type Testers, and this
charactorizes the ability of a battery, or cell, to provide power at
specific rates, with specific voltage falloffs. When compared to
Original Installation Readings, they allow for Lifetime, and Archival,
trends to be plotted for that particular Bank, Battery, or Cell.
99% of the Telecommunications Industry use these to monitor the Battery
Banks that supply Operational, and Backup Power for SwitchRooms and
Transmission Inforstructure.
Nobody uses Hydrometers anymore and most don't even use the Optical
Specific Gravity Testers, of the last decade, because the Internal
Impedance Testers more accuratly tell the state of the Batteries
being tested, and can be used on the many different variety of Cell
Structures found in diverse Telecommunications Systems. ie PB/H2SO4
PB/CaOH, NiCad, NiMH, Lithium, ect.
Todd
George, you are clearly a phony. In this whole dialog you offered not
one bit of information. I thoroughly know the difference between deep
discharge and car batteries. I thoroughly know the difference between
commercial / industrial battery banks and cobbled together ones. What
I don't know is the cost differences. In the few instances I have
gotten numbers I was stunned. I could buy and throw away 4 systems of
my capacity for what I found. And since you have revealed absolutely
nothing in the way of detail about what a professionally designed
costed out bill of material would be you offer nothing. I have given
you so many opportunities to offer something that I can only believe
that you are a double talking phony windbag.
RE my system: Yes, it's a toy. The cost has been less than $2500
(including the wasted $800 on a 160W PV panel). And it has been my
sole source of electrical power for two years now. Over that two years
I have not run across anything that would coax me into a "more
professional" system. Certainly nothing you have offered would
convince me to change.
Todd
> In article <1182293621.536715.236...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Thanks. That's similar to the double talk in the link I supplied.
Now:
1. Can they tell you anything about the condition of an individual
cell in a multi-cell battery?
2. How do they measure the battery current? Do they use a shunt? Do
they use a clamp on ammeter? Or do they use something else?
3. Is the condition of the battery determined by monitoring the dv/dt
and di/dt and plotting it over time?
4. When the condition of the bank is being checked, does that require
monitoring each individual battery (or cell if they're 2V batteries)?
If so, are shunts and instrumentation terminals built into these
batteries?
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>I think it likely that in very small installations like the signs and
>PV walkway lights, that the PV may have a real sweat spot. Especially
>if there is no need for AC conversion.
I wouldn't call that a sweet spot. Lots of people have described how
solar setups of every size have paid off in the right applications.
I've had this generator versus solar discussion with two neighbors in
my area who were dead sure they'd come out ahead running a generator.
Both are now on solar. One was a mechanic who could buy and maintain
machinery on the cheap, but even he got tired of it. The other wore
out an expensive generator, burned perhaps $10k in fuel, and
temporarily gave up their off-grid place.
You're probably facing a $5k per year fuel bill within the next
decade. I suspect that if you wait ten years you'll be looking back
wishing you hadn't run a generator all that time. PV prices may drop
but I wouldn't count on it since demand might continue to outstrip
supply as fuel costs keep going up. Battery prices are likely to rise,
they seem to have more than doubled in the last ten years. Inverters
etc. may get cheaper but that saving won't make much difference to the
big picture.
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
>George, you are clearly a phony. In this whole dialog you offered not
>one bit of information.
Au contraire! In this thread he taught us for the thousandth time
<groan> that calculating PV capacity is easy... which he demonstrated
by describing how 10kWh per day can be supplied by either a 1.6, 10.2,
or 51.8kW array. Amateurs faced with the same task can only come up
with a single-size option, but a true Ghinius armed with nothing more
than a computer and a spreadsheet can offer at least three. We also
learned that kW and kWh can be interchanged just as easily as Ah and
Wh. Those are time-saving tricks known only to select professionals
with 20 years of practice.
> I can only believe
>that you are a double talking phony windbag.
You're selling him way short. Check the archives, he's at the very
least a quadruple-talking phony windbag.
>I have not run across anything that would coax me into a "more
>professional" system. Certainly nothing you have offered would
>convince me to change.
You just haven't considered all the angles. If you had a setup like
his you could write a book about it, make a fortune, and get mentioned
in online videos. Don't you want to be famous? Kids these days!
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
>On Jun 20, 2:42 pm, You <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote:
>> In article <1182293621.536715.236...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>> Battery Internal Impedance is measured by these type Testers, and this
Here's another alternative "low-cost" device.
http://www.worldenergylabs.com/products/interrogator_intro.html
It looks really nice, and no price is given so they must be
affordable. Every home power operator should have one, how many do you
want?
Wayne
beemerwacker
post more closely, I guess I just didn't get it on first blush.
George, I'm so glad that you've finally asked for help in learning the
difference! Of course everyone here will help you as much as we can,
so just go ahead and ask your questions. And remember, there aren't
any stupid questions!
George Ghio
Well if you get some help reading beemerwanker's post you will find that there was no request for
information. Only beemerwanker's clear and concise opinion that you do not in fact know the
difference between automotive batteries and deep cycle batteries and his pathetic misrepresentation
of my post.
What I said was;
>> The truth is that Todd has a reading and comprehension problem.
>>
>> Is unable to tell the difference between system capacity and battery capacity.
>>
>> And cobbled together a laughable battery set that is a sad attempt to be a player in solar and
>> now wants to redefine all the standard industry definitions.
This of course supports the first of my claims quite well.
The second claim is also true.
And the third is laughable in the extreme. But still true.
>
> RE my system: Yes, it's a toy. The cost has been less than $2500
> (including the wasted $800 on a 160W PV panel). And it has been my
> sole source of electrical power for two years now. Over that two years
> I have not run across anything that would coax me into a "more
> professional" system. Certainly nothing you have offered would
> convince me to change.
I am not surprised. In your self-delusion you are convinced that battery capacity and system
capacity mean the same thing. If you do not learn the difference you will never have an
understanding of system design.
I am sorry you "wasted" $800 on your panel, but suspect that your ignorance had more to do with the
problem than the manufacture of the panel. Please note that you were advised to test it against its
short circuit specs and return it for refund if it did not pass the test.
If on the other hand you are now prepared to listen and learn I will run you through system sizing
and design from the beginning. You will learn the correct formula for system sizing and the
relationship between all the components in a system, and the difference between system capacity
aannnnd battery capacity.
I am not trying to convince you to change, but rather to learn enough so you can make an intelligent
decision for yourself base on correct sizing and design principals.
George Ghio
--
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>You know, I have to apologize to George. After reading his original
>post more closely, I guess I just didn't get it on first blush.
>
>George, I'm so glad that you've finally asked for help in learning the
>difference! Of course everyone here will help you as much as we can,
>so just go ahead and ask your questions.
That's like standing in front of a cracked dam hoping for a glass of
water.
>And remember, there aren't
>any stupid questions!
I'd like to know the answers to these questions - Does he think that
public bungling becomes invisible so long as he fails to own up to it?
Why would someone who's spent years ruining his prospects by
advertising his remarkable shortcomings on Usenet, keep doing it over
and over and over? Will he ever "learn the difference" between
*being* professional, and pretending to be?
Wayne
beemerwacker
> I'd like to know the answers to these questions - Does he think that
> public bungling becomes invisible so long as he fails to own up to it?
> Why would someone who's spent years ruining his prospects by
> advertising his remarkable shortcomings on Usenet, keep doing it over
> and over and over? Will he ever "learn the difference" between
> *being* professional, and pretending to be?
>
> Wayne
Well, Wayne the answers are pretty simple really.
If you remember, here in the United States we had a president named
William Clinton. As we all learned from him, if you repeat the lie
long enough and pretend it's the truth, eventually it becomes the
truth. Now, at the same time everyone who knows it's not the truth and
says anything about it stands in the way of progress, which in fact is
making the lie into the truth. Thus the person telling the lie
actually becomes correct in that "progress" is making the untruth
truth and anyone pointing that out is in fact standing in the way of
progress.
Which answers questions #2 and 3. He hasn't been advertising his
shortcomings at all; he's building his legacy. For question #3, see
the answer to number 1. See how all this ties in together? It's like a
real live Mobius band!
And you thought that would be hard to answer. It's not, because series
answers are much simpler than parallel answers in that there are less
facts to get in the way of the truth.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
That was pretty good except it made my head hurt. I'm gonna eat an ice
cream cone now to see what will happen with parallel headaches.
Wayne
Todd
> problem than the manufacture of the panel. Please note that you were advised to test it against its
> short circuit specs and return it for refund if it did not pass the test.
I learned from my supplier today we are going to go through just such
tests. They're sending me the packing materials as we speak. I frankly
don't think anything is wrong with the panel but my Blue Sky 3024i
clearly reads 12.5 volts and 7.9 amps (or 94 watts) under the best of
conditions (sun directly over head, severe clear sky, and panel
perpendicular to sun's rays).
>
> If on the other hand you are now prepared to listen and learn I will run you through system sizing
> and design from the beginning. You will learn the correct formula for system sizing and the
> relationship between all the components in a system, and the difference between system capacity
> and battery capacity.
There is one thing I know for sure. If you add batteries to a system,
the system capacity increases regardless of whether you add the
batteries in series or in parallel. If your teaching is going to cause
me to see an error in that principle, I should demand a refund for my
electrical engineering degree.
>
> I am not trying to convince you to change, but rather to learn enough so you can make an intelligent
> decision for yourself base on correct sizing and design principals.
I am always prepared and eager to learn. I am also cognizant of the
fact that all teaching is not rooted in truth and thus all learning is
not beneficial to the student. But go ahead George ... let 'er rip.
Todd
Let's dissect it.
Your Best Choice for Battery Health,
Reliability and Maintenance Cost Savings
Begs the question: What's my second best choice.
· Cut Battery Maintenance Costs 20-40%
Let's see if they tell me how.
· Extends useful battery life up to 20%
Let's see if they tell me how.
· Increases reliability of your batteries.
Let's see if they tell me how.
" Runs like a battery tester and delivers like a load tester ".
Cute.
The Interrogator™ is the first handheld battery tester that directly
measures capacity loss due to sulfation and dryout,
How does it do this?
two common points of battery failure that are leading indicators of
battery health. This analytical capability had previously only been
possible with the use of expensive bench top test equipment used by
battery experts. Today, the Interrogator puts this diagnostic
capability into any battery tester's hands.
How? What are the principles involved?
$1,000,000's of dollars can be lost if your batteries fail!
Well, not really. I might lose a pound of hamburger in the
refrigerator.
The Interrogator™ 4210B ElectroChemical Battery Analyzer
The Interrogator™ 4210 is the only ElectroChemical Battery Analyzer
available today that measures Sulfation, Dryout, Voltage and
Impedance.
No mention of current measurement. How do they get impedance without
measuring current. How do I prevent dryout in a sealed battery?
Voltage and Impedance are lagging indicators - by the time there is a
significant change, with lagging indicators your batteries are most
likely beyond the point where corrective action can be taken.
So lets see if they tell us what they lag. So far they've just told us
they're useless because by the time those indicators say something,
the cause is lost.
But the Chemical properties, Sulfation and Dryout, are much more
'sensitive' leading indicators of battery health.
And also difficult to touch and feel in a sealed battery.
By identifying early sulfation and dryout, corrective action can be
taken that will ultimately extend the life of your batteries. " An
ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." The Interrogator, meets
all the critical needs of battery test instrumentation:
Ah ha. They identify sulfation and dryout early. How do you suppose
they do that?
1. Easy to use.
2. Fast test measurements.
3. Leading indicators to shows bad batteries before they fail.
4. Informs you what corrective action needs to be taken to prevent
failure.
What possible corrective actions could I take?
5. Low cost.
6. Shows charge capacity.
Oh really? How? Does it count coulombs?
7. Safe.
This allows you, the user to:
1. Identify more bad batteries before they fail.
And then what do I do.
2. Taking appropriate corrective action to significantly extend
useful life.
What is that corrective action. Can I not take that action without
this instrument?
3. Reduce battery maintenance costs by not replacing batteries to
soon.
But must I have this instrument to have a regimen of good maintenance?
4. Reduce battery maintenance costs by not over testing.
What are the costs of testing? What are the costs of over testing?
5. Reduce battery maintenance costs by reducing the need to load
test.
How?
6. Reduce or eliminate the need for specific gravity testing.
Can't do that anyway with a sealed battery.
7. Screen incoming batteries to reduce 'infant mortality'.
My batteries come with a 6 year warranty. Full replacement for failure
in 2 years. Prorated credit in the 4th to the 6th year. I suspect
infant mortality happens in the first 2 years so I'm covered.
Less load testing and better maintenance means your battery banks will
last up to 20% longer, cost 20-40% less to maintain in terms of
replacement and personal costs, and you will have more reliable backup
power so you reduce costs and risks of failure.
But how? Your just saying so. If it doesn't turn out to be so will you
make up the 20% (since I would be flying by faith alone ... knowing no
concept or principles being imployed).
Our customers include many fortune 1000 companies in the telecom,
utility, transportation, and medical device industries; all of which
have mission critical batteries.
No there's a "count me in" driving statement. That's like "we have
sold are tooth brush to many fortune 1000 companies, all of which have
mission critical batteries."
See how empty this is? What's to buy? And why buy? And those questions
I asked in the beginning ... were they answered? Well .... I don't
think so, but it is real clever double talk.
Todd
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:51:15 -0700, philkryder <alt.goo...@Kryder.com>
There are lots of rumblings that we're on the brink of an order-of-
magnitude improvement in PV price performance. If that happens,
existing systems will look pretty silly. I agree that fuel prices will
continue to rise, and with them, the cost of producing PV panels. But
I think when it's all said and done, the present value of waiting will
pay great benefits.
Re the expensive generator. I don't think $300 is expensive. I have
gone through 4 engines in two years. The first I heavily abused in
trying WVO as a fuel and lubricant and not having a good system for
keeping the cooling hopper from going dry. Cost of that mistake ...
about $30 and and several overhauls I did myself. Two other engines
were defective from the manufacturer. They had a ball bearing (which I
could buy from my local bearing house) that was defective. I
overhauled those two engines and now have both running. Cost of that
experience ... about $20. My fourth engine has been in regular service
now for about 6 months and hasn't missed a beat. Turns out problems I
was having with coking were caused by my failure to get the WVO clean.
I fixed that problem for about $6 per month. And as for my cost of
fuel. It's real close to zero.
Re the cost of everything else rising: Costs of raw materials have
gone up in the neighborhood of 10 times in my lifetime. Costs of most
manufactured goods I use have probably gone up less than 3 times in
that period and a good many of them have probably gone down. If I
bought everything I now have a long time ago, instead of waiting until
I needed it and the bleeding edge had dulled, I would be in horrible
financial shape.
If I had bought the originally proposed, professionally designed and
installed, $13K PV system from the BP Solar people here, my beer would
truly be full of tears.
>
> Wayne
beemerwacker
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:56:10 -0000, beemerwacker <43.kit...@gmail.com>
Wayne,
While you're doing that, you can watch me read some viewers mail to me
in this excerpt of the show. If you eat ice cream at the same time,
it'll make the headache go away!
http://www.northernmichigansolar.com/shortembed.htm
Sorry about the bad title at the beginning. I didn't feel like re-
compiling it.
George Ghio
You are willing and able to do all that work and then go off to BP for a system?
Shear madness.
George Ghio
>> I am sorry you "wasted" $800 on your panel, but suspect that your ignorance had more to do with the
>> problem than the manufacture of the panel. Please note that you were advised to test it against its
>> short circuit specs and return it for refund if it did not pass the test.
>
> I learned from my supplier today we are going to go through just such
> tests. They're sending me the packing materials as we speak. I frankly
> don't think anything is wrong with the panel but my Blue Sky 3024i
> clearly reads 12.5 volts and 7.9 amps (or 94 watts) under the best of
> conditions (sun directly over head, severe clear sky, and panel
> perpendicular to sun's rays).
I suspect that you are going to be embarrassed.
>
>> If on the other hand you are now prepared to listen and learn I will run you through system sizing
>> and design from the beginning. You will learn the correct formula for system sizing and the
>> relationship between all the components in a system, and the difference between system capacity
>> and battery capacity.
>
> There is one thing I know for sure. If you add batteries to a system,
> the system capacity increases regardless of whether you add the
> batteries in series or in parallel. If your teaching is going to cause
> me to see an error in that principle, I should demand a refund for my
> electrical engineering degree.
Your premise is correct but you are confusing yourself because you don't understand the industry
definitions. Yes, there is a relationship between system capacity and battery capacity. No, they are
not the same thing.
System capacity is what you need to supply for a day in kWh. This is the load, it is the result of
your energy audit(what you want to run).
Battery capacity(Ah) is determined from this load, + inverter efficiency, temperature and days of
autonomy. Change any of these conditions and the battery capacity(Ah) changes, the system
capacity(kWh) remains the same.
>
>> I am not trying to convince you to change, but rather to learn enough so you can make an intelligent
>> decision for yourself base on correct sizing and design principals.
>
> I am always prepared and eager to learn. I am also cognizant of the
> fact that all teaching is not rooted in truth and thus all learning is
> not beneficial to the student. But go ahead George ... let 'er rip.
That is a fair comment. Save it for wayne.
What is your daily load in kWh? I suggest that at this point you do a complete energy audit listing
all loads separately.
Tony Wesley
> There are lots of rumblings that we're on the brink of an order-of-
> magnitude improvement in PV price performance.
Yes, there are. We're about 2 to 5 years away from the big break
through in PV. And we have been, for the past 25 years or so.
R.H. Allen
I think anybody waiting for "the big breakthrough" is going to be
waiting an awfully long time. Low-cost PV will be achieved through
incremental progress, not a big breakthrough. Historically, the pace of
that sort of progress -- in any industry, not just PV -- is directly
proportional to production levels. Today's PV production levels are two
orders of magnitude larger than they were 20 years ago, but are now
growing at the rate of an order of magnitude every 5 years. Each order
of magnitude increase in production rates has roughly halved the
manufacturing cost of PV modules. That suggests that incremental
improvements will put manufacturing costs below $1.00/W sometime in the
next 5-10 years.
Of course, the historical trend could always be interrupted (and some
folks even in the PV industry think it will be), and for retail prices
to drop the supply of PV modules needs to catch up to demand. And of
course, all of the non-module costs involved in building a PV system
have to drop as well (their costs incrementally improve in a similar
manner to PV modules, but I believe they have historically dropped a
little more slowly than modules). And of course, somebody might actually
produce the magical "breakthrough" that so many people seem to be
waiting for, but I'm not holding my breath.
Anthony Matonak
> Tony Wesley wrote:
>>
>>> There are lots of rumblings that we're on the brink of an order-of-
>>> magnitude improvement in PV price performance.
>>
>> Yes, there are. We're about 2 to 5 years away from the big break
>> through in PV. And we have been, for the past 25 years or so.
>
> I think anybody waiting for "the big breakthrough" is going to be
> waiting an awfully long time.
Those same rumblings of big breakthroughs have been circulating for
the last 20 years. The simple fact is that no one can predict the
future so no one knows what will happen. You're only option is to
base your decisions about PV on what is going on right now and not
fuzzy predictions of the future.
Anthony
David Williams
-> the last 20 years. The simple fact is that no one can predict the
-> future so no one knows what will happen. You're only option is to
-> base your decisions about PV on what is going on right now and not
-> fuzzy predictions of the future.
-> Anthony
You're right, of course. But in the real world, predictions of
developments are often required. Management asks scientists to estimate
what progress will be made if $X per year is invested. Based on the
predictions, a decision as to whether to invest or not is made. Of
course, if the scientists' jobs depend on receiving the funding, they
are likely to make optimistic estimates of progress. Sometimes, these
find their way into the public media, so the world comes to believe
that breakthroughs are imminent.
When I was a kid, in the 1950s, research was just beginning into
controlled nuclear fusion as a possible source of clean, cheap power.
An experiment called Zeta, in Britain, produced promising results,
which later turned out to be erroneous. Based on these results, it was
predicted that fusion power would be a commercial reality within 20
years. Since then the estimate of 20 years in the future has remained
roughly constant. The clock keeps ticking, but never reaches midnight.
Shareholders love optimistic predictions. Management likes to keep the
shareholders happy.
dow
Steve Spence
>
> http://www.northernmichigansolar.com/shortembed.htm
>
> Sorry about the bad title at the beginning - I didn't feel like re-
> compiling it.
>
Sweet!
--
Steve Spence
Director, Green-Trust
http://www.green-trust.org
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>> While you're doing that you can watch the excerpt from the show.
>>
>> http://www.northernmichigansolar.com/shortembed.htm
>>
>> Sorry about the bad title at the beginning - I didn't feel like re-
>> compiling it.
>>
>
>Sweet!
I agree. But Max was far too kind IMO. :- ) I wonder if Gecko's next
lunch bag will explain how adding batteries in series doesn't change
storage capacity...
Wayne
beemerwacker
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:28:33 -0400, "Steve Spence"
>
> >> While you're doing that you can watch the excerpt from the show.
>
> >>http://www.northernmichigansolar.com/shortembed.htm
>
> >> Sorry about the bad title at the beginning - I didn't feel like re-
> >> compiling it.
>
> >Sweet!
>
> I agree. But Max was far too kind IMO. :- ) I wonder if Gecko's next
> lunch bag will explain how adding batteries in series doesn't change
> storage capacity...
>
> Wayne
Actually that part's in the "can" and needs to be uploaded to the
server. Gimme a few hours to edit it down to just that part and upload
it. :-)
beemerwacker
> I agree. But Max was far too kind IMO. :- ) I wonder if Gecko's next
> lunch bag will explain how adding batteries in series doesn't change
> storage capacity...
>
> Wayne
Here see if that's better.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>http://www.northernmichigansolar.com/hyper1embed.htm
<chuckle> Watch out! Apparently George isn't happy that you keep
getting his name wrong. http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfdu.htm I
predict that his next letter will say something like "send me $25 or
I'll keep promoting your videos". :-)
Wayne
George Ghio
wayne.
Perhaps you would like to substantiate your claims.
But then, like the claims on your site, this latest offering is just another lie.
There can't be a next letter because there was never a first.
I am always happy when I see the usual suspects scrabbling to strike, in such childish ways, at me,
it shows that I have exposed their nonsense yet again.
beemerwacker
>
> Perhaps you would like to substantiate your claims.
>
> But then, like the claims on your site, this latest offering is just another lie.
>
> There can't be a next letter because there was never a first.
>
> I am always happy when I see the usual suspects scrabbling to strike, in such childish ways, at me,
> it shows that I have exposed their nonsense yet again.
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
In case you didn't notice George, it's your scrabbling - well
scribbling - that I take the time to read on the show. Be that as it
may, I'm not sure what you exposed but I'm sure it wasn't anything
impressive or substantial. What really impresses me is that your snail-
mail always reaches me no matter where I am. Between the Aussie and
American postal systems being able to deliver your missives, I am
impressed.
If you can get me a DV, I'll put it on the show with the proper
introductions. As an aside, we picked up Lowes and provide.net as
sponsors for the upcoming episode.
George Ghio
>> wayne.
>>
>> Perhaps you would like to substantiate your claims.
>>
>> But then, like the claims on your site, this latest offering is just another lie.
>>
>> There can't be a next letter because there was never a first.
>>
>> I am always happy when I see the usual suspects scrabbling to strike, in such childish ways, at me,
>> it shows that I have exposed their nonsense yet again.
>>
>> --
>> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
>
> In case you didn't notice George, it's your scrabbling - well
> scribbling - that I take the time to read on the show. Be that as it
> may, I'm not sure what you exposed but I'm sure it wasn't anything
> impressive or substantial. What really impresses me is that your snail-
> mail always reaches me no matter where I am. Between the Aussie and
> American postal systems being able to deliver your missives, I am
> impressed.
Just name the PO this alleged mail came from. If it was posted in OZ then the postmark will name the PO.
But like wayne, you are just making noise.
>
> If you can get me a DV, I'll put it on the show with the proper
> introductions. As an aside, we picked up Lowes and provide.net as
> sponsors for the upcoming episode.
>
>
Wow, I am impressed.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>In case you didn't notice George, it's your scrabbling - well
>scribbling - that I take the time to read on the show. Be that as it
>may, I'm not sure what you exposed but I'm sure it wasn't anything
>impressive or substantial.
George's revelations can be difficult to detect unless you use a
"Legend In His Own Mind" (LIHOM) detector. The view screen on these
devices displays the Ghinius LIHOM brain waveform, which some users
describe as "the outline of a sack of rocks". Readers who don't have a
LIHOM detector on hand will have to make do by observing for clinical
symptoms, such as the insistence of paycheck-to-paycheck subjects that
they're otherwise greatly accomplished.
> What really impresses me is that your snail-
>mail always reaches me no matter where I am. Between the Aussie and
>American postal systems being able to deliver your missives, I am
>impressed.
>
>If you can get me a DV, I'll put it on the show with the proper
>introductions.
Last he mentioned it George was still saving up for a digital camera,
so I expect he's several years away from recording video. If you can't
wait that long you then this footage should do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9wAqNN-Dic. Meanwhile he's bragging on
his greatest hits. Veeeery impressive, I can hardly wait for the next
installment. http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/tbfduwisdumb.htm
>As an aside, we picked up Lowes and provide.net as
>sponsors for the upcoming episode.
Congrats.
Wayne
beemerwacker
>
> Just name the PO this alleged mail came from. If it was posted in OZ then the postmark will name the PO.
>
Look George, I can understand that you would want this guy's address
but my production staff opens the fan mail and puts them in a generic
envelope for on the air. Above all we want to respect the privacy of
our audience and don't want to take the chance of revealing (even
accidentally) the address of a viewer, even someone like this George
Ghekko person. All I can tell you is that he lives in Australia and
watches the show. Yes, I know you'd probably like to touch base with
the guy to compare notes and whatnot but I can't reveal his address.
I'm sure you understand.
beemerwacker
>
> >As an aside, we picked up Lowes and provide.net as
> >sponsors for the upcoming episode.
>
> Congrats.
>
> Wayne
Heh, just imagine what they'll say when they find out!
Todd
You again leap to the wrong conclusion. I went to BP to estimate a
system "before" I tried to do anything myself. I'm glad I didn't have
the money to purchase the BP system because I have gotten essentially
the result I wanted and needed for 1/10th the cost ... and a little
bit of effort.
George Ghio
First claim, beemerwanker says in response to my post
"What really impresses me is that your snail-
mail always reaches me no matter where I am."
Then claims in response to my next post
"Look George, I can understand that you would want this guy's address
but my production staff opens the fan mail and puts them in a generic
envelope for on the air. Above all we want to respect the privacy of
our audience and don't want to take the chance of revealing (even
accidentally) the address of a viewer, even someone like this George
Ghekko person. All I can tell you is that he lives in Australia and
watches the show. Yes, I know you'd probably like to touch base with
the guy to compare notes and whatnot but I can't reveal his address.
I'm sure you understand."
It's category one for this sick puppy for sure. Reads mail that does not exist, can't read posts
that do exist, even when he wrote them.
I know we shouldn't laugh at those with mental deficiencies, but by Christ, beemerwanker rivals
wayne for all the time best laugh.
George Ghio
will go away.
George Ghio
You asked them for a price is the conclusion I jumped to. Not surprised you didn't take them up on
the offer
beemerwacker
Georgie, I never claimed that the letters I read on camera were from
you. Are you now claiming that your last name is Ghekko? Your letters
do in fact reach me and you know they do because I sign all the damn
A.O.D.s that you stick on them. I know you're full of yourself but
really there are other people on the planet that happen to have the
name "George".