Cabling batteries together
swatts
It seems most 12v set-ups using 6v batteries hook them up in series as
12v volt units and then parallel those. Would there be a problem
hooking them up as in the diagram below? The "x's" represent copper
buses. (hopefully it will display properly. The x's on the right
should be in vertical alignment representing a single common bus.)
x++6v--x
x++6v--x
x++6v--x
x
x
x
x--6v++x
x--6v++x
x--6v++x
Thanks.
p.s. - I often see reference to cable for welding units to wire
together the batteries. Where are the best places to get this?
Eeyore
swatts wrote:
> I'm looking to set up a 12v (for now) system with 4 or 6 6v batteries.
>
> It seems most 12v set-ups using 6v batteries hook them up in series as
> 12v volt units and then parallel those. Would there be a problem
> hooking them up as in the diagram below? The "x's" represent copper
> buses. (hopefully it will display properly. The x's on the right
> should be in vertical alignment representing a single common bus.)
>
> x++6v--x
> x++6v--x
> x++6v--x
> x
> x
> x
> x--6v++x
> x--6v++x
> x--6v++x
>
That looks perfectly fine to me.
> p.s. - I often see reference to cable for welding units to wire
> together the batteries. Where are the best places to get this?
Can't help you with that one.
Graham
Newby
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriend...@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:44AEAC62...@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com...
>
>
> swatts wrote:
>
[snipped]
> > p.s. - I often see reference to cable for welding units to wire
> > together the batteries. Where are the best places to get this?
>
> Can't help you with that one.
>
> Graham
>
>
Such cable can be bought at a welder's supply house. If you are in the USA
check the yellow pages of your phone book.
DJ
swatts wrote:
> I'm looking to set up a 12v (for now) system with 4 or 6 6v batteries.
>
> It seems most 12v set-ups using 6v batteries hook them up in series as
> 12v volt units and then parallel those. Would there be a problem
> hooking them up as in the diagram below? The "x's" represent copper
> buses. (hopefully it will display properly. The x's on the right
> should be in vertical alignment representing a single common bus.)
>
>
> x++6v--x
> x++6v--x
> x
> x
> x
> x--6v++x
> x--6v++x
My only two cents would be to make sure you take off your "+" and "-"
from the furthest apart batteries (like I kinda ascii drew), just to
make the charging and discharging as even as possible.
>
> Thanks.
>
> p.s. - I often see reference to cable for welding units to wire
> together the batteries. Where are the best places to get this?
Amusingly, I find from solar supply places, pre-made. If you need
proper cables built, I find it's cheaper to buy the final product than
to make it from the proper parts.
But then, I get dealer prices. But even what I charge, it would be
cheaper ;-).
DJ
Malc
> I'm looking to set up a 12v (for now) system with 4 or 6 6v batteries.
>
> It seems most 12v set-ups using 6v batteries hook them up in series as
> 12v volt units and then parallel those. Would there be a problem
> hooking them up as in the diagram below?
I parallel up lead acids for my caving lamps without any problems.
>
> p.s. - I often see reference to cable for welding units to wire
> together the batteries. Where are the best places to get this?
Welding supplier? If you have some idea of the maximum current (not
forgetting inrush or startup) then you could probably get something suitable
from an electrical supplier. Farnell or Buck and Hickman sell worldwide I
believe.
--
Malc
Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend
Merlin-7 KI4ILB
Joe
"Malc" <malunsp...@lightindigooverthere.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5Ezrg.59859$7Z6....@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
cri-...@verizon.net
under 100 amp load, measured 0.15 volt difference in your proposed
configuration vs configuring as 12 volt. could not measure
anything different with charging; you will use less number of
cables pairing the batteries as 12 volt; it think it was the
lesser number of cables in my case; either configuration will work,
but minimizing cables and cable length will usually improve performance.
Paul
George Ghio
where ever possible.
Two parallel batteries to get the Ah required is only acceptable when
there is no other solution.
If you need three or more parallel batteries to obtain the required Ah
then you should increase the Ahs of the batteries to reduce the number
of parallel strings.
i.e. If you have a need for 1000Ah capacity then you should use two
500Ah batteries in parallel rather than four 250 Ah batteries in parallel.
Of course the ideal would be a single 1000Ah battery.
NOTE: A battery is made up of cells. A 1000Ah battery have six cells
either in one or more cases. i.e. six single cells(2V) or two
batteries(6V) of three cells each
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
harry
minor differences in their performance /internal resistance you could
get very large currents circulating, sufficient to damage the batteries
or even cause an explosion.
**********************************
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>On NO account should you run lead acid batteries in parallel.
No. Paralleling is fine.
Nick
You
"harry" <susan.a...@virgin.net> wrote:
> On NO account should you run lead acid batteries in parallel. Due to
> minor differences in their performance /internal resistance you could
> get very large currents circulating, sufficient to damage the batteries
> or even cause an explosion.
> **********************************
>
Jeeze Louise Dude, your just full of BS today.....Did you get your
Engineering Degree out of a Cracker Jacks Box?
Folks have been connecting batteries in parallel, since Ben Frankins day,
and operating electric equipment just fine. Where do you come up with
this stuff? Electrictions R Us or something........ You have obviously
never worked in the Telecommunications Industry, as they have big
strings of batteries in Series/Parallel that provide Hot Standby Backup
Power for every telephone exchange in the world.
Ashley Clarke
news:1152556043.3...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> On NO account should you run lead acid batteries in parallel. Due to
> minor differences in their performance /internal resistance you could
> get very large currents circulating, sufficient to damage the batteries
> or even cause an explosion.
> **********************************
I had to think about this one.
Firstly, you have to know what you`re doing.
Take some precautions like fitting current-limiting resistors
(or even SCR`s) between them in parallel so that if they really
are odd or one completely destroys itself, the current isn`t too
dangerous still. Almost certainly fit Fuses where possible.
It would be interesting to hear from "Harry", exactly where these
very large currents suddenly appear.
I don`t see anything wrong with connecting them up this way
as long as they are all of similar specification and reside in the
same dis/ charge regime at all times together.
Remember doing this at school in physics?!
-------------------------------------------------------
Ashley Clarke
-------------------------------------------------------
Merlin-7 KI4ILB
joe
CM
> On NO account should you run lead acid batteries in parallel. Due to
> minor differences in their performance /internal resistance you could
> get very large currents circulating, sufficient to damage the batteries
> or even cause an explosion.
> **********************************
I've run 4 batteries in parallel with no problem for several years.
There are only 2 instances where parallel connection could be a problem:
1) If you connected a discharged battery to a fully charged battery, large
currents could flow between them until the charges equalized. Simple
solution - make sure all the batteries to be paralleled have equal or
nearly equal voltage. You can use a voltmeter, or simply make sure all are
fully charged.
2) If one of the batteries develops a major internal short (very rare), a
large current could flow from the other batteries through the short.
Therefore, it is a good idea to put a fuse on each battery, sized to
prevent overheating of the wires and/or batteries.
Also, it is a good idea to use equal capacity batteries and equal length
leads to connect them, avoiding having one battery do most of the work.
CM
harry
harry
acid battery. You have to put a substantial load on the battery and
then check the voltage. You can buy a gadget to do this, a huge
resistor on two prods with a volt meter across it. You see then in
non-mickey-mouse battery selling establishments. Hardly worth it for
occasional use though.
If you don't believe me, check with the manufacturers.
Or Google it. There's endless info about this eg:-
http://www.rpc.com.au/news/newsletters/69Mar04.html
You've been lucky with your batteries.....so far.
Sorobon
"CM" <c...@cm.not.really> wrote in message
news:cFEsg.5841$PE1....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Warning: Excessive hysteria....
>> On NO account should you run lead acid batteries in parallel. Due to
>> minor differences in their performance /internal resistance you could
>> get very large currents circulating, sufficient to damage the batteries
>> or even cause an explosion.
>> **********************************
>
This is crazy millions of RV's have parallel lead acid batteries, I have 2 -
6volt batteries in series and then in parallel with 3 -12 volt batteries, my
Dodge pickup has 2 - 12 volt batteries in parallel, millions of golf carts
have parallel batteries, industrial UPS systems have parallel batteries it
must be safe or CA would have made it a felony by now, to put batteries in
parallel
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>Unfortunately a voltmeter won't tell you the state of charge
>of a lead acid battery.
It's just a question of resolution. If the meter says 0.0 volts,
we can be pretty sure the battery's dead :-)
>You have to put a substantial load on the battery and then check
>the voltage. You can buy a gadget to do this, a huge resistor on
>two prods with a volt meter across it. You see then in non-mickey-
>mouse battery selling establishments...
How about this, for $9.99?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93784
Nick
daestrom
<nicks...@ece.villanova.edu> wrote in message
news:e8u7qu$4...@acadia.ece.villanova.edu...
> harry <susan.a...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
>>On NO account should you run lead acid batteries in parallel.
>
> No. Paralleling is fine.
>
Well, there are some precautions/limitations. But I agree, paralleling is
far from the most dangerous thing you can do with lead-acid batteries.
Smoking near them is probably more dangerous, in fact if you look at the
number of explosions caused by each, I'm sure that smoking is more
dangerous.
But heck, even diesel-electric submarines parallel their forward and af
batteries together at times. And those are ~270V 1700AH jobs.
Of course, they also have a sailor manning the switchboard 24/7 to monitor
things :-)
daestrom
stubbsgarage
harry wrote:
> Never noticed the big flash when you put the jump lead on?
>
>
>
> Merlin-7 KI4ILB wrote:
> > If that was true...than how can you jump start a car????
> > joe
Ummmm, that "big flash" is usually caused by the load of the other
systems running in the car to be boosted. When you connect up any
motor, or light or what have you, to a battery, it will create the same
"big flash" if there's no switch in there to stop it from starting
right up.
When I connect batteries in Parallel with NO load on them, they never
create a "big flash"..
Hmmmm, maybe you're connecting the + to the - ??? LOL
George Ghio
where ever possible.
Two parallel batteries to get the Ah required is only acceptable when
there is no other solution.
Let's make a definitive statement:
You can spot the amateurs, they're the ones who always quote from
Automotive, RV and Marine sources.
Automotive, RV and Marine use parallel batteries mostly because of space
restrictions.
This does not make parallel batteries technologically better. It just
solves a space problem.
Warning signs to be wary of
1. The salesman who tries to sell you a ”Modified Sine
Wave Inverter”. This is a lie. Sine wave is the ideal, it
is not modified. What the salesman is trying to sell you
is a modified square wave inverter.
2. Six parallel strings of golf cart batteries are as good as a
single string of 2 Volt cells for the same Amp hour
capacity. This is a lie. Parallel strings of batteries
should be avoided wherever possible.
3. RV, Automotive and Marine suppliers. Avoid them.
They generally do not have the required knowledge of
home power systems.
4. People in pubs.
5. People who can’t account for their energy use but still
brag about their systems.
DJ
George Ghio wrote:
> Warning signs to be wary of
> 4. People in pubs.
What's wrong with people in pubs?!?
;-)
DJ
wmbjk
Once a "power consultant" tries selling nonsense like the use of 300K
wire for generator-field control, then even the pub experts can see
through his act. Being a step ahead on the technical side, and far
more likeable, it's was easy for the drunks to steal George's
potential customers. As if it couldn't get any worse for him, I've
been seeding pubs with KillaWatts. Then there are those Tsingtao
drinkers laughing about his latest "specialty".
The forecast calls for more orneriness. :-)
Wayne
George Ghio
drinkers.
wmbjk
<gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>DJ wrote:
>> George Ghio wrote:
>>
>>> Warning signs to be wary of
>>
>>> 4. People in pubs.
>>
>> What's wrong with people in pubs?!?
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> DJ
>>
>Nothing, as long as you don't mind getting your advice from serious
>drinkers.
The following advice only sounds like it was penned by a drinker ...
http://tinyurl.com/lnfak <regarding "lying" inverter salesmen>
""Modified Sq. Wave" is just that. Sine Wave is not stepped."
http://tinyurl.com/kw49o <regarding vehicle alternator-field control>
"300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job."
http://tinyurl.com/lvoxd "To test a batteries condition with a volt
meter or hydrometer the battery should be removed from all input and
output, allowed to "rest" for around 12 hours to obtain a true
indication of its state of charge."
http://tinyurl.com/nlmpu <regarding dishwashers etc.> "If you want ot
measure theuse with a meter, measure the appliance on its highest
setting."
Why should folks pay a hypocrite for such quack recommendations when
they can get less-wrong advice for free at the pub?
Wayne
George Ghio
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:40:29 +1000, George Ghio
> <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>> DJ wrote:
>>> George Ghio wrote:
>>>
>>>> Warning signs to be wary of
>>>> 4. People in pubs.
>>> What's wrong with people in pubs?!?
>>>
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> DJ
>>>
>> Nothing, as long as you don't mind getting your advice from serious
>> drinkers.
>
> The following advice only sounds like it was penned by a drinker ...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lnfak <regarding "lying" inverter salesmen>
> ""Modified Sq. Wave" is just that. Sine Wave is not stepped."
True for true sine inverters
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kw49o <regarding vehicle alternator-field control>
> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job."
True
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lvoxd "To test a batteries condition with a volt
> meter or hydrometer the battery should be removed from all input and
> output, allowed to "rest" for around 12 hours to obtain a true
> indication of its state of charge."
True if you want a true soc
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nlmpu <regarding dishwashers etc.> "If you want ot
> measure theuse with a meter, measure the appliance on its highest
> setting."
Worst case is the best.
>
> Why should folks pay a hypocrite for such quack recommendations when
> they can get less-wrong advice for free at the pub?
Why take advice from a person who can't even define his systems daily
load, even thought said person claims to own two watt meters.
wmbjk
<gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>wmbjk wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:40:29 +1000, George Ghio
>> <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> DJ wrote:
>>>> George Ghio wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Warning signs to be wary of
>>>>> 4. People in pubs.
>>>> What's wrong with people in pubs?!?
>>>>
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>> DJ
>>>>
>>> Nothing, as long as you don't mind getting your advice from serious
>>> drinkers.
>>
>> The following advice only sounds like it was penned by a drinker ...
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/lnfak <regarding "lying" inverter salesmen>
>> ""Modified Sq. Wave" is just that. Sine Wave is not stepped."
>
>True for true sine inverters
So your statement is true *if* you're allowed to change it later? Pity
you didn't advise shoppers to give inverter salesmen the same second
chance eh? Your weaseling is for naught, inverter sine waves simply
have more steps than mod sine. For example, the Xantrex SW waveform
has as many as 52 steps, HFSM models like the Outbacks and Exeltechs
have hundreds. Perhaps hysterical "power consultants" should be
required to learn the basics before hypocritically chastising salesmen
for using industry-accepted terminology. You might start here
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/yago89.html.
>> http://tinyurl.com/kw49o <regarding vehicle alternator-field control>
>> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job."
>
>True
No George, alternator-field control in this context requires only a
few Ohms. So your 300K wire and rheostat recommendations are out by a
factor of tens of thousands, a large error even by your standards. If
you disagree, then feel free to show us your calculations for the wire
length. You needn't be accurate, to the nearest mile is acceptable.
>> http://tinyurl.com/lvoxd "To test a batteries condition with a volt
>> meter or hydrometer the battery should be removed from all input and
>> output, allowed to "rest" for around 12 hours to obtain a true
>> indication of its state of charge."
>
>True if you want a true soc
No George, SG readings don't require the same OC rest as voltage
readings. Look closely at the *single* line that represents both Amp
hours discharge and SG on the graph here
http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/specific_gravity_battery.htm.
Such basic stuff was surely covered during the "course" you took.
Perhaps you shouldn't have slept so much.
>> http://tinyurl.com/nlmpu <regarding dishwashers etc.> "If you want ot
>> measure theuse with a meter, measure the appliance on its highest
>> setting."
>
>Worst case is the best.
No George, ignorant recommendations are never "best". For example, if
someone were to follow your faulty logic, and attempt to estimate a
typical refrigerator's energy consumption by measuring max power, he'd
by out by a factor of about 10. Deliberately overestimating appliance
energy consumption is foolish, and deliberately instructing others to
copy your foolishness makes you a quack.
All of these things have been explained to you multiple times by many
different posters, yet you continue to weasel and deny in order to
avoid admitting your errors. If you believe there's any drinker who
can come close to your level of pigheadedness without passing out,
then please point out his record in the Guinness Book. Until some
drinker accomplishes the feat, the others are right to be warning
potential customers that you're still the misinformation champion.
Wayne
George Ghio
Wayne wants you to believe the words he puts into my mouth.
You can believe what you want.
Runaways version is based on my having proved that he has no idea what
his loads are or what his system actually does, despite owning two watt
meters. Wayne will tell you any amount of misinformation and bull shit
if he thinks it will discredit me.
or
my version based on what I was taught to become an accredited designer
and installer and practical knowledge gained over twenty years of
experience. I don't own a watt meter but can still define every load in
my system and in fact can, and have posted here several times, define my
entire energy use for all sources of energy on a daily, weekly, monthly
and yearly basis.
Toss a coin. I don't care. It's your money.
wmbjk wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 13:03:25 +1000, George Ghio
> <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>> wmbjk wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:40:29 +1000, George Ghio
>>> <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> DJ wrote:
>>>>> George Ghio wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Warning signs to be wary of
>>>>>> 4. People in pubs.
>>>>> What's wrong with people in pubs?!?
>>>>>
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> DJ
>>>>>
>>>> Nothing, as long as you don't mind getting your advice from serious
>>>> drinkers.
>>> The following advice only sounds like it was penned by a drinker ...
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/lnfak <regarding "lying" inverter salesmen>
>>> ""Modified Sq. Wave" is just that. Sine Wave is not stepped."
>> True for true sine inverters
If a salesman offers you a "Modified Sine Wave Inverter" he either as
ignorant as wayne or telling a lie. Sine wave is the ideal, you do not
modify it.
>
> So your statement is true *if* you're allowed to change it later? Pity
> you didn't advise shoppers to give inverter salesmen the same second
> chance eh? Your weaseling is for naught, inverter sine waves simply
> have more steps than mod sine. For example, the Xantrex SW waveform
> has as many as 52 steps, HFSM models like the Outbacks and Exeltechs
> have hundreds. Perhaps hysterical "power consultants" should be
> required to learn the basics before hypocritically chastising salesmen
> for using industry-accepted terminology. You might start here
> http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/yago89.html.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/kw49o <regarding vehicle alternator-field control>
>>> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job."
>> True
>
> No George, alternator-field control in this context requires only a
> few Ohms. So your 300K wire and rheostat recommendations are out by a
> factor of tens of thousands, a large error even by your standards. If
> you disagree, then feel free to show us your calculations for the wire
> length. You needn't be accurate, to the nearest mile is acceptable.
Still true. I have no control over what size and/or resistance of wire
is ultimately used. A foot length is more than sufficient. If it has
more than the required resistance it still works. If the wire is to
short or does not have the required resistance it will not allow
sufficient regulation. Then there is your mis-quote where you left out
the Ohm after the K and my typo where the K should have been mm.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/lvoxd "To test a batteries condition with a volt
>>> meter or hydrometer the battery should be removed from all input and
>>> output, allowed to "rest" for around 12 hours to obtain a true
>>> indication of its state of charge."
>> True if you want a true soc
>
> No George, SG readings don't require the same OC rest as voltage
> readings. Look closely at the *single* line that represents both Amp
> hours discharge and SG on the graph here
> http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/specific_gravity_battery.htm.
> Such basic stuff was surely covered during the "course" you took.
> Perhaps you shouldn't have slept so much.
Still true. It takes time for the charge to "soak" through the plates to
give a true reading. Yes you can get the SG reading shortly after
charging, and it may read full charge, but it is wrong until the charge
is fully absorbed into the plates. At which time the SG will read at its
correct level.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/nlmpu <regarding dishwashers etc.> "If you want ot
>>> measure theuse with a meter, measure the appliance on its highest
>>> setting."
>> Worst case is the best.
>
Still true
George Ghio
Wayne wants you to believe the words he puts into my mouth.
You can believe what you want.
Runaways version is based on my having proved that he has no idea what
his loads are or what his system actually does, despite owning two watt
meters. Wayne will tell you any amount of misinformation and bull shit
if he thinks it will discredit me.
or
my version based on what I was taught to become an accredited designer
and installer and practical knowledge gained over twenty years of
experience. I don't own a watt meter but can still define every load in
my system and in fact can, and have posted here several times, define my
entire energy use for all sources of energy on a daily, weekly, monthly
and yearly basis.
Toss a coin. I don't care. It's your money.
If a salesman offers you a "Modified Sine Wave Inverter" he either as
ignorant as wayne or telling a lie. Sine wave is the ideal, you do not
modify it.
True sine wave is true sine wave.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/kw49o <regarding vehicle alternator-field control>
>>> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job."
>> True
>
> No George, alternator-field control in this context requires only a
> few Ohms. So your 300K wire and rheostat recommendations are out by a
> factor of tens of thousands, a large error even by your standards. If
> you disagree, then feel free to show us your calculations for the wire
> length. You needn't be accurate, to the nearest mile is acceptable.
Still true. I have no control over what size and/or resistance of wire
is ultimately used. A foot length is more than sufficient. If it has
more than the required resistance it still works. If the wire is to
short or does not have the required resistance it will not allow
sufficient regulation. Then there is your mis-quote where you left out
the Ohm after the K and my typo where the K Ohms should have been mm.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/lvoxd "To test a batteries condition with a volt
>>> meter or hydrometer the battery should be removed from all input and
>>> output, allowed to "rest" for around 12 hours to obtain a true
>>> indication of its state of charge."
>> True if you want a true soc
>
> No George, SG readings don't require the same OC rest as voltage
> readings. Look closely at the *single* line that represents both Amp
> hours discharge and SG on the graph here
> http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/specific_gravity_battery.htm.
> Such basic stuff was surely covered during the "course" you took.
> Perhaps you shouldn't have slept so much.
Still true. It takes time for the charge to "soak" through the plates to
give a true reading. Yes you can get the SG reading shortly after
charging, and it may read full charge, but it is wrong until the charge
is fully absorbed into the plates. At which time the SG will read at its
correct level.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/nlmpu <regarding dishwashers etc.> "If you want ot
>>> measure theuse with a meter, measure the appliance on its highest
>>> setting."
>> Worst case is the best.
Still true
>
It is also still true that you are an imbecile, but with diligence and
hard work you might just make cretin.
wmbjk
<gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>If a salesman offers you a "Modified Sine Wave Inverter" he either as
>ignorant as wayne or telling a lie.
No George, mod-sine, while a poor term, is both established and
industry-accepted. Descriptions of related terms are available at most
every web sales outfit with an FAQ section http://tinyurl.com/zhgb7.
Using the term mod-sine is not "lying", at least no more than you for
claiming that inverter sine waves aren't stepped. The difference is
that if asked to clarify, most salesmen will make an honest effort,
while you prefer turbo-weasel mode.
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/kw49o <regarding vehicle alternator-field control>
>>>> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job."
>>> True
>>
>> No George, alternator-field control in this context requires only a
>> few Ohms. So your 300K wire and rheostat recommendations are out by a
>> factor of tens of thousands, a large error even by your standards. If
>> you disagree, then feel free to show us your calculations for the wire
>> length. You needn't be accurate, to the nearest mile is acceptable.
>
>Still true. I have no control over what size and/or resistance of wire
>is ultimately used. A foot length is more than sufficient.
How long is the 300K wire you recommended George? Use any reasonable
diameter.
> If it has
>more than the required resistance it still works.
You mean, one might use the first foot, and wrap the other miles....
where exactly?
> If the wire is to
>short or does not have the required resistance it will not allow
>sufficient regulation. Then there is your mis-quote where you left out
>the Ohm after the K and my typo where the K should have been mm.
Too funny, what's a "mm Ohm"? Your recommendation is clear, I haven't
misquoted you or left anything out. http://tinyurl.com/6 "300 kOhms
of ni-cr wire would work better". http://tinyurl.com/kw49o "all you
need is a 300K ohm wirewound [rheostat]". Refusing to admit to such a
blatant error only convinces readers that you're not capable of owning
up to *any* mistake. So why torture yourself by weaseling?
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/lvoxd "To test a batteries condition with a volt
>>>> meter or hydrometer the battery should be removed from all input and
>>>> output, allowed to "rest" for around 12 hours to obtain a true
>>>> indication of its state of charge."
>>> True if you want a true soc
>>
>> No George, SG readings don't require the same OC rest as voltage
>> readings. Look closely at the *single* line that represents both Amp
>> hours discharge and SG on the graph here
>> http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/specific_gravity_battery.htm.
>> Such basic stuff was surely covered during the "course" you took.
>> Perhaps you shouldn't have slept so much.
>
>Still true. It takes time for the charge to "soak" through the plates to
>give a true reading. Yes you can get the SG reading shortly after
>charging, and it may read full charge, but it is wrong until the charge
>is fully absorbed into the plates.
No George, look at the graph and try again.
You might try honesty for a change, perhaps by writing something like
this - "As an accredited designer with twenty years experience, I've
only learned to weasel and criticize. The wisdom of owning up to my
mistakes, and how use Ohmmeters and hydrometers, weren't part of my
training, and I see no reason to change."
Wayne
Steve Cothran
off-grid, because the power co wanted $18k to bring juice to his
house. His setup had 300w of solar panels and batteries came from a
generous donation from the telephone company...some 1500+AH.
I don't know shit from solar systems. I do know electronics, having
made my living that way some 30 years. Neighbor had a Ghio, we'll call
"Joe" that built him a charge controller for his system. "Joe" lived
off-grid, so he must really know his stuff.
Shortening the story, "Joe" had built him a charge controller that
would never allow more than 3A into the batteries,
Steve Cothran
would never allow more than 3A charge, despite flat batteries. I
connected the panels directly to the batteries and measured better
than 20A. I told him that I thought the charge controller was not
working right. So he called Heart Interface tech support (I believe
that was the company) that made charge controllers, and offered to
sell him the right one, and confirming what my meter told me. Then he
called "Joe" who reassured him that all was great in the world. The
charge controller stayed in. So after another year of flat batteries
he paid the power co. to string to his house.
Point of the matter:
I do know that was tunnel-vision by the neighbor, and he should at
least listened to Heart, but these "Joe's" don't know shit and are
treated with baffling reverence by some.
I read this group because I build some stuff that has to be
solar-powered, nothing on the magnitude of a house...but tips and
hints are great. There's a lot of mis-information here too...like 300K
resistance for an alternator field? ROFL.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>... based on what I was taught to become an accredited designer
The course was flawed.
Nick
You
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
I am still trying to figure out who the Accrediting Agency
or Group was.......Maybe it was CrackerJacks, I understand
some folks get their Drivers License from them, as well
as other Technical Accreditations.........
George Ghio
Wayne wants you to believe the words he puts into my mouth.
You can believe what you want.
Runaways version is based on my having proved that he has no idea what
his loads are or what his system actually does, despite owning two watt
meters. Wayne will tell you any amount of misinformation and bull shit
if he thinks it will discredit me.
or
my version based on what I was taught to become an accredited designer
and installer and practical knowledge gained over twenty years of
experience. I don't own a watt meter but can still define every load in
my system and in fact can, and have posted here several times, define my
entire energy use for all sources of energy on a daily, weekly, monthly
and yearly basis.
Toss a coin. I don't care. It's your money.
If a salesman offers you a "Modified Sine Wave Inverter" he either as
ignorant as wayne or telling a lie. Sine wave is the ideal, you do not
modify it.
True sine wave is true sine wave.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/kw49o <regarding vehicle alternator-field control>
>>> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job."
>> True
>
> No George, alternator-field control in this context requires only a
> few Ohms. So your 300K wire and rheostat recommendations are out by a
> factor of tens of thousands, a large error even by your standards. If
> you disagree, then feel free to show us your calculations for the wire
> length. You needn't be accurate, to the nearest mile is acceptable.
Still true. I have no control over what size and/or resistance of wire
is ultimately used. A foot length is more than sufficient. If it has
more than the required resistance it still works. If the wire is to
short or does not have the required resistance it will not allow
sufficient regulation. Then there is your mis-quote where you left out
the Ohm after the K and my typo where the K Ohms should have been mm.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/lvoxd "To test a batteries condition with a volt
>>> meter or hydrometer the battery should be removed from all input and
>>> output, allowed to "rest" for around 12 hours to obtain a true
>>> indication of its state of charge."
>> True if you want a true soc
>
> No George, SG readings don't require the same OC rest as voltage
> readings. Look closely at the *single* line that represents both Amp
> hours discharge and SG on the graph here
> http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/specific_gravity_battery.htm.
> Such basic stuff was surely covered during the "course" you took.
> Perhaps you shouldn't have slept so much.
Still true. It takes time for the charge to "soak" through the plates to
give a true reading. Yes you can get the SG reading shortly after
charging, and it may read full charge, but it is wrong until the charge
is fully absorbed into the plates. At which time the SG will read at its
correct level.
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/nlmpu <regarding dishwashers etc.> "If you want ot
>>> measure theuse with a meter, measure the appliance on its highest
>>> setting."
>> Worst case is the best.
Still true
>
It is also still true that you are an imbecile, but with diligence and
hard work you might just make cretin.
William Dryden
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:g4vhb21j94hhjb351...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 17:44:27 +1000, George Ghio
> <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> >If a salesman offers you a "Modified Sine Wave Inverter" he either as
> >ignorant as wayne or telling a lie.
>
> No George, mod-sine, while a poor term, is both established and
> industry-accepted. Descriptions of related terms are available at most
> every web sales outfit with an FAQ section http://tinyurl.com/zhgb7.
> Using the term mod-sine is not "lying", at least no more than you for
> claiming that inverter sine waves aren't stepped. The difference is
> that if asked to clarify, most salesmen will make an honest effort,
> while you prefer turbo-weasel mode.
>
to generate the waveform. I have 2 of them, one 200Watt for my frequency
counter and on 800Watt for my oscilloscope and service monitor. I can not
use a modified (read that to mean stepped) sine wave inverter because of the
RF harmonics that are generated in the inverter. It will invalidate the
test readings and you would even see it on the scope.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>Wayne wants you to believe the words he puts into my mouth.
Nonono. That's YOUR game, George :-)
Nick
wmbjk
What the nitwit said was that inverter sine waves are not stepped
http://tinyurl.com/lnfak. There are obviously inverter waveforms which
*are* stepped, since there are two such inverters powering my home.
http://www.oasismontana.com/Trace-SW.html. As I understand it, the
Outback's waveform is similar to the Exeltech (I have one of these as
well), made up of some 400 segments
http://www.homepower.com/files/sineinverters.pdf. The Prosine wave has
even more http://www.homepower.com/files/hp69-60.pdf "It's single sine
wave cycle has 667 steps" At what point any manufacturer is entitled
to call their product "pure" or "true" sine I cannot say. But I know
that accusing those who use the term modified sine of "lying" is as
ignorant as recommending 300K Ohm wire for generator field control.
Wayne
wmbjk
wrote:
>Trouble is, Ghio's are everywhere.
I've met a few local ones as well, and they can be colorful. My
favorite was the guy who claimed that his "China" diesel generator
could supply 10kW all day on a gallon of fuel. At least he wasn't
bashing drinkers, perhaps because of the beer in his hand. ;-)
<snip>
>Shortening the story, "Joe" had built him a charge controller that
>would never allow more than 3A charge, despite flat batteries. I
>connected the panels directly to the batteries and measured better
>than 20A. I told him that I thought the charge controller was not
>working right. So he called Heart Interface tech support (I believe
>that was the company) that made charge controllers, and offered to
>sell him the right one, and confirming what my meter told me. Then he
>called "Joe" who reassured him that all was great in the world. The
>charge controller stayed in. So after another year of flat batteries
>he paid the power co. to string to his house.
>
>Point of the matter:
>I do know that was tunnel-vision by the neighbor, and he should at
>least listened to Heart, but these "Joe's" don't know shit and are
>treated with baffling reverence by some.
>
>I read this group because I build some stuff that has to be
>solar-powered, nothing on the magnitude of a house...but tips and
>hints are great. There's a lot of mis-information here too...like 300K
>resistance for an alternator field? ROFL.
It reminds me of the dead parrot bit...
(at power consultant store, customer rolls in large spool of wire)
<clerk> Mornin'!
<customer> Hullo, I'd like to return this wire you sold my wife.
<clerk> That's not wire, that's a generator field control kit.
<customer> Whatever you want to call it, it's silly.
<clerk> I don't see why, it's a perfectly good 300K kit.
<customer> Are you daft? It's miles long, and bigger than me mum.
<clerk> You're only supposed to use a foot off the end.
<customer> Bloody hell, what's the rest for then?
<clerk> I have no control over what you do with the rest.
<customer> I asked what it's for.
<clerk> And I answered.
<customer> (exasperated) Never mind, just give me back my money.
<clerk> Would you like to exchange it for a 150 Amp rheostat?
<customer> Why would I do that?
<clerk> It's almost as good as the 300,000 Ohm kit.
<customer> But I don't need 300,000 Ohms, I only need 5.
<clerk> I didn't say 300,000 Ohms, and if I did, I meant millimeters.
<customer> You did say it, and it's damned silly.
<clerk> No I didn't. (replaces "power consultant" sign with "arguments
for sale" sign)
<customer> I didn't come here to argue with you.
<clerk> Then why are you in an arguments for sale store?......
Wayne
wmbjk
Such courses are generally a "license to learn", which was a concept
doomed to failure in George's case.
If any of those instructors have been keeping up with George's posting
career, they're probably dreading the possibility that he might
someday mention their names.
Wayne
harry
All rotating electrical equipment works on it. There's no such thing as
a "DC" motor/generator- it's AC with a mechanical inverter/rectifier
attached. Called a commutator and brushes.
True DC only comes from batteries.
Electronic devices don't function on, or easily produce sine waves.
In days of yore, when electronics meant thermionic valves, if you
wanted to control the speed of an electric motor, you needed a "DC"
motor or sa very complex "AC" motor.
Electronic devices very easily produce square waves but if you try to
run a motor on square waves it will have to be very severely de-rated.(
Like by 50%) It's called "form factor"BTW "Iron losses" in the motor
increase.
Also transformers only function satisfacorily on sine waves.
Nowadays near-to-sine waves can be generated electronically, opening
all sorts of possibilties but the technology is not cheap. Even then
it's a series of little steps rather than a true sine wave. However the
nearer to a true sine wave, the more efficiently a motor will run.
Speed contol on AC motors is now easy and practical. Hence all the
stressing of modified sine waves. (Though he does sound to have got
his wires across a bit)
************************
wmbjk wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 05:15:07 GMT, "William Dryden"
> <william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
daestrom
"harry" <susan.a...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:1153070104.8...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Sine waves..
> All rotating electrical equipment works on it. There's no such thing as
> a "DC" motor/generator- it's AC with a mechanical inverter/rectifier
> attached. Called a commutator and brushes.
> True DC only comes from batteries.
> Electronic devices don't function on, or easily produce sine waves.
> In days of yore, when electronics meant thermionic valves, if you
> wanted to control the speed of an electric motor, you needed a "DC"
> motor or sa very complex "AC" motor.
> Electronic devices very easily produce square waves but if you try to
> run a motor on square waves it will have to be very severely de-rated.(
> Like by 50%) It's called "form factor"BTW "Iron losses" in the motor
> increase.
> Also transformers only function satisfacorily on sine waves.
> Nowadays near-to-sine waves can be generated electronically, opening
> all sorts of possibilties but the technology is not cheap. Even then
> it's a series of little steps rather than a true sine wave. However the
> nearer to a true sine wave, the more efficiently a motor will run.
> Speed contol on AC motors is now easy and practical. Hence all the
> stressing of modified sine waves. (Though he does sound to have got
> his wires across a bit)
Well, for speed control of AC motors, the 'king' is the VFD (Variable
Frequency Drive). These are often 3-phase and use just six SCR's to make
the three-phase AC. The output of the inverter itself is a three-level step
wave (-peak, 0, +peak). The output is then filtered by capacitance and the
motor windings themselves. The filtering 'rounds' the corners of the step
wave, but it is still not a 'pure' sine wave (the charging/discharging of
capacitors is an exponential function, not sinusoidal. Looks similar on a
scope, but mathematically they are not the same)
Even small AC generators do not output 'pure' sine waves. The limited
number of coils/slots and the irregularity of the stator iron gives the
output a 'jagged/wavy' appearance.
Transformers and induction motors work quite well with these waveforms so
long as the total harmonic content is not excessive.
An electronic oscillator working through a class A amplifier is about the
best sine wave one can get. But the class A amplifier is very energy
inefficient and not very practical for power systems.
daestrom
William Dryden
Those are modified sine wave, I do not care what THEY call them. You can
not RUN a frequency counter on them. Too many harmonics. You have top use
a 60Hz crystal oscillator.
George Ghio
The uppercase letter "K" is Kelvin in the energy game. Funny how neither
you nor runaway twigged on to that.
You can't even roast someone with out showing your lack of knowledge.
The post should have read "300mm" and/or 150 ohms. I have no idea why I
mucked up the post as I did. Probably trying to type while laughing at
runaways antics. And with you on the scene what hope have I got.
Ya all have a nice day now.
Steve Cothran
>Ya all have a nice day now.
I'll have a nicer day than your "clients", I am sure. Poor bastards.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>Steve Cothran wrote:
>>Trouble is, Ghio's are everywhere... There's a lot of mis-information here
>>too...like 300K resistance for an alternator field? ROFL.
>>
>The uppercase letter "K" is Kelvin in the energy game. Funny how neither
>you nor runaway twigged on to that.
It's commonly used for resistors, vs Kelvin degrees or kW.
>The post should have read "300mm" and/or 150 ohms. I have no idea why I
>mucked up the post as I did.
As I recall you typed "300 amp resistor" :-)
Nick
You
"William Dryden" <william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Those are modified sine wave, I do not care what THEY call them. You can
> not RUN a frequency counter on them. Too many harmonics. You have top use
> a 60Hz crystal oscillator.
Have you ever SEEN a "60Hz Crystal Oscillator"?? as opposed to a 60Hz
timebase that divides down a Watch Crystal Oscillator to make 60Hz....
wmbjk
I didn't think I'd ever see the day, but darned if he hasn't finally
admitted to an error here. Were it only one ... ;-) I wonder why he
spent so much time pretending that his recommendation was correct, and
why he keeps claiming that the problem is that readers are too dumb to
understand him? <snorf>
>As I recall you typed "300 amp resistor" :-)
No doubt he did at some point, but originally it was a 150A rheostat.
Why Amps? Because supposedly that was the only marking it had.
Fortunately for those who love Usenet comedy, George thought it wise
to elaborate - "The item in question is a 150 ohm rheostat"
http://tinyurl.com/fxgsa.
At other times he wrote that it was "clearly marked 200 Amps", and "It
also rated 150 Ohms" http://tinyurl.com/kc3u4.
At least with 150 Ohms <chuckle> it would be easy to throttle the
generator output down to nothing. Alas, according to George, "Its
resistance is too low and as such does not allow control down to less
than around ten amps" http://tinyurl.com/ha6aq. Oh what a tangled
web...
But on planet Ghio rheostats lose resistance with time, so eventually
George's was down to - "Rheo - 8.5 ohm ceramic"
http://tinyurl.com/em9cc. And yes, we know it's the exact same
rheostat, because in that thread he also tells us - "This is the
famous 150A rated ceramic Rheostat" http://tinyurl.com/gjj5a.
I was sure it couldn't get any funnier, but then came the Kelvin and
mm (metric Ohms :-)) weaseling, despite the clarity of multiple
quotes...
"300 kOhms of ni-cr wire would work better" http://tinyurl.com/nwexx
"300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job"
300 Kelvin Ohms? 300 mm Ohms? 300 Kelvins of wire?
Now about that one foot length... generator field control in his case
only requires a few Ohms. Yet after 6 years of intense study George
has settled on a 150 Ohm recommendation. Hmm... .050" diameter
nichrome wire is about .25 Ohms per foot
http://www.wiretron.com/nicrdat.html, or about 600' for 150 Ohms...
600' seems to be rather more than 1', but George clarified it with
"300mm" and/or 150 ohms", ie .002" diameter wire, which might be
readily scrounged from doll house miniature hair dryers.
Fortunately generator builders can read a less confusing description
of generator field control here
http://www.homepower.com/files/mark8.pdf , which includes the secret
that has alluded the Ghinius for so long - "resistance of 2 to 25 Ohms
works well".
I expect that George may have read about using nichrome wire for
generator field control, but hasn't actually tried it, and therefore
can't relate to it in any reasonable manner. The only things we might
glean from his entertaining descriptions are that the resistance
setting on his multimeter is marked "kOhms", or that the meter's
batteries are dead, both of which could be expected to confuse a
"power consultant/accredited designer". :-) I note that he's now
lecturing elsewhere on SI units. Yikes!
Wayne
wmbjk
<william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> As I understand it, the
>> Outback's waveform is similar to the Exeltech (I have one of these as
>> well), made up of some 400 segments
>> http://www.homepower.com/files/sineinverters.pdf. The Prosine wave has
>> even more http://www.homepower.com/files/hp69-60.pdf "It's single sine
>> wave cycle has 667 steps" At what point any manufacturer is entitled
>> to call their product "pure" or "true" sine I cannot say.
>Those are modified sine wave, I do not care what THEY call them. You can
>not RUN a frequency counter on them. Too many harmonics. You have top use
>a 60Hz crystal oscillator.
You might post some links to whatever inverters you believe qualify as
pure sine. Preferably home-power applicable models.
Wayne
daestrom
Well, FWIW, I *have* run across rheostats that have a current rating given.
The idea is, that if you keep the current through the active part of the
rheostat below that level, then the power dissipated in the turns of the
thing will not be harmful.
Rating rheostats by power level (as most resistors are rated) is problematic
in that the amount of power it can dissipate is directly related to how many
turns of the thing are 'active'. If you just connect one end and the wiper
to the circuit, and set the thing for 1/4 the full resistance, then only 1/4
of the turns are 'active' and the total amount of power it can dissipate is
1/4 of the total.
Rather than mess around trying to figure the power rating based on the wiper
position in the circuit, they just rate it by the maximum current. Moving
the wiper to a different spot puts more/less turns in the circuit and a
higher/lower power rating.
But a 150 ohm rheostat rated for 200 amps??? Not bloody likely. That would
mean when set to the mid-position of 75 ohms, with 200 amps flowing through
it, it would be capable of dissipating 3MW of heat. That size rheostat (if
they ever made one) would be too big to lift.
A really large 150 ohm rheostat might be rated for about 10 amps. We used
something like that for the field control of a 500 kW / 270VDC
diesel-generator's "manual voltage regulator" (it also had an automatic
one). The thing was about 14 inches across (~35 cm for SI folks) and
weighed about 20, maybe 30 lbm (44 to 66 kg). And yes, it got *hot* when in
use.
> But on planet Ghio rheostats lose resistance with time, so eventually
> George's was down to - "Rheo - 8.5 ohm ceramic"
> http://tinyurl.com/em9cc. And yes, we know it's the exact same
> rheostat, because in that thread he also tells us - "This is the
> famous 150A rated ceramic Rheostat" http://tinyurl.com/gjj5a.
>
Still would have to dissipate upwards of 190kW.
> I was sure it couldn't get any funnier, but then came the Kelvin and
> mm (metric Ohms :-)) weaseling, despite the clarity of multiple
> quotes...
>
> "300 kOhms of ni-cr wire would work better" http://tinyurl.com/nwexx
> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job"
> http://tinyurl.com/pqjvx
>
> 300 Kelvin Ohms? 300 mm Ohms? 300 Kelvins of wire?
>
Oh, I'm sure George will say he deliberately used 'K' versus 'k' to "test
us". We all failed. But of course, if we *had* "twigged" on it, he would
have claimed we were just nit-picking. A deliberate setup to show how
'superior' he is???
daestrom
wmbjk
<daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:
>
>"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:l0rnb250heo6kn9hn...@4ax.com...
>But a 150 ohm rheostat rated for 200 amps??? Not bloody likely. That would
>mean when set to the mid-position of 75 ohms, with 200 amps flowing through
>it, it would be capable of dissipating 3MW of heat.
> That size rheostat (if >they ever made one) would be too big to lift.
Unless it's the special dense format model.... "This unit is 4"
across" http://tinyurl.com/qo8bw, and, "This piece of equipment is
large " http://tinyurl.com/ha6aq. <LMAO> I trust you realize that
your doubt is going to get you membership in the "usual suspects"
club, along with Home Power Magazine I assume. ;-) Anyway, if he had
a sincere bone his body, then all he need do to defend his honor is
take some closeup photos of the markings and Ohmmeter readings. He
claims not to have a camera, but even a "large" <snorf> 4" rheostat
can ride to the copy shop or whatever in his shirt pocket. 'Course, he
about had a fit recently worrying that someone might come to his place
to take pictures, so I'm thinkin' that when it comes to showing
photos, the lack of a camera isn't really the problem.
>A really large 150 ohm rheostat might be rated for about 10 amps. We used
>something like that for the field control of a 500 kW / 270VDC
>diesel-generator's "manual voltage regulator" (it also had an automatic
>one). The thing was about 14 inches across (~35 cm for SI folks) and
>weighed about 20, maybe 30 lbm (44 to 66 kg).
> And yes, it got *hot* when in use.
>> But on planet Ghio rheostats lose resistance with time, so eventually
>> George's was down to - "Rheo - 8.5 ohm ceramic"
>> http://tinyurl.com/em9cc. And yes, we know it's the exact same
>> rheostat, because in that thread he also tells us - "This is the
>> famous 150A rated ceramic Rheostat" http://tinyurl.com/gjj5a.
>Still would have to dissipate upwards of 190kW.
Whatever that rheostat is, and whatever it's marked, he managed to
bungle his original report out of total ignorance. Rather than quickly
own up to the blunder, he instinctively turned to weaseling, and his
poor recollection of his previous stories exacerbated the problem.
Perhaps he never read this: "If you tell the truth, you don't have to
remember anything." --Mark Twain
>> I was sure it couldn't get any funnier, but then came the Kelvin and
>> mm (metric Ohms :-)) weaseling, despite the clarity of multiple
>> quotes...
>>
>> "300 kOhms of ni-cr wire would work better" http://tinyurl.com/nwexx
>> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job"
>> http://tinyurl.com/pqjvx
>>
>> 300 Kelvin Ohms? 300 mm Ohms? 300 Kelvins of wire?
>>
>
>Oh, I'm sure George will say he deliberately used 'K' versus 'k' to "test
>us". We all failed. But of course, if we *had* "twigged" on it, he would
>have claimed we were just nit-picking. A deliberate setup to show how
>'superior' he is???
<chuckle> My take is that all the different stories were just his
bumbling way of trying to come up with a remotely plausible
explanation. If only he was smart enough to realize the impossible
nature of that. When first confronted with his mistake, he should have
written - "Sorry, I don't know anything about rheostats. I hear that
you can use a few feet of nichrome wire instead, so I'm going to try
that some time to learn how all this stuff works". That lesson in
humility might have saved him from making all those blunders since,
including my favorite - how he half-filled an 840Ah battery in 3 hours
at 30A, using the 200A rheostat of course! Although, I admit that I'd
miss his stories if he stopped telling them. :-)
Wayne
Solar Flare
"You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:You-AA0B87.1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Solar Flare
frequently pops up when Weiner is down and needs rescuing from his own
incompetence.
Please also notice it was posted in an editorial grandstanding style.
Notice the same version of the same reader version each time although
this varies from time to time depending on which machine William is
using.
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From: Steve Cothran <fa...@fake.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: Cabling batteries together
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 11:54:15 -0700
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George Ghio
that has stamped on it 150Amps. I did not make this rheo nor did I rate
it. Just one of those interesting little things that make life interesting.
William Dryden
"William Dryden" <william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:y7Hug.68659$Lm5....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
instead of inverters. The Trace SW2512 is a setpped modified sine inverter.
It is a very GOOD modified sine, but it is not a pure sine wave. The
Exelteck SI 1000 is NOT a stepped inverter. The writer at Homepower should
have his pen broken. What they are do9ing is deviding the frequency down to
60Hz BEFORE it is being aplied to the output of the inverter. This is done
a lot in radios so that the crystals are not so expensive.
I'm going to use round numbers so I don't have to get a calculator out. If
you want a 100Hz output +/- 1Hz, go buy the crystal OR go buy a 1000Hz +/-
10 Hz crystal and devde the crystal output by 10 before you use it. The
1000 Hz crystal is considerably cheaper because it can be manufactured +/-
10 Hz instead of +/- 1Hz.
Why they are using such an odd frequency multable (416 2/3) I do not know.
William Dryden
"You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:You-AA0B87.1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Actually, I have. I have 2 of them. They are in TCXOs in my 2 inverters.
George Ghio
This reho was pulled out of a quite old spot welder going for scrap. And
even used as it is does get warm. Not hot though.
>
>> But on planet Ghio rheostats lose resistance with time, so eventually
>> George's was down to - "Rheo - 8.5 ohm ceramic"
>> http://tinyurl.com/em9cc. And yes, we know it's the exact same
>> rheostat, because in that thread he also tells us - "This is the
>> famous 150A rated ceramic Rheostat" http://tinyurl.com/gjj5a.
>>
>
> Still would have to dissipate upwards of 190kW.
>
>> I was sure it couldn't get any funnier, but then came the Kelvin and
>> mm (metric Ohms :-)) weaseling, despite the clarity of multiple
>> quotes...
>>
>> "300 kOhms of ni-cr wire would work better" http://tinyurl.com/nwexx
>> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job"
>> http://tinyurl.com/pqjvx
>>
>> 300 Kelvin Ohms? 300 mm Ohms? 300 Kelvins of wire?
>>
>
> Oh, I'm sure George will say he deliberately used 'K' versus 'k' to
> "test us". We all failed. But of course, if we *had* "twigged" on it,
> he would have claimed we were just nit-picking. A deliberate setup to
> show how 'superior' he is???
>
> daestrom
>
You really should read all the posts. What George had to say about it
was, 17/7/06 10:08 PM:
Well, as you want to buy in to the game lets consider your ignorance.
The uppercase letter "K" is Kelvin in the energy game. Funny how neither
you nor runaway twigged on to that.
You can't even roast someone with out showing your lack of knowledge.
The post should have read "300mm" and/or 150 ohms. I have no idea why I
wmbjk
<sole...@hotomali.invalidated> wrote:
>Please notice the same posting source (message ID) for a new name that
>frequently pops up when Weiner is down and needs rescuing from his own
>incompetence.
>
>Please also notice it was posted in an editorial grandstanding style.
>
>Notice the same version of the same reader version each time although
>this varies from time to time depending on which machine William is
>using.
Let me guess Gymmy.... you're auditioning for a job with the Alan
Connor Usenet Header Detective Agency, and your ground-breaking theory
is that there's something unique about using Free Agent? Heck,
couldn't be many using that newsreader eh? It's almost like a
fingerprint! I look forward to your next revelation - "notice how both
these guys are using IE...."
Since you want it to appear that you're agreeing with poor old
George's position here, you really ought to support him in a
meaningful way. You could provide examples of 4", 150 Amp, 150 Ohm
rheostats. Or you could list all the innocent reasons a "power
consultant" might confuse 150 Amps with 150 Ohms. Or you could tell us
how 150 Ohm rheostats turn into 8.5 Ohm rheostats. Or you could
support the likelihood of somebody thinking 300 Kelvins and 300
millimeters, yet writing 300k Ohms instead. Or you could show us some
foot-long 150 Ohm wire, and the appropriate alligator clip to use with
it. Or you could explain how 150 Ohms is insufficient when one needs
25 Ohms. Gosh, it seems like there are a lot of things you *could* do
to support the Ghinius. Yet for some strange reason you aren't doing
any of them. Perhaps we need a detective to solve the mystery...
Wayne
wmbjk
Yes Shakespeare, it's interesting that it's interesting. But the
consensus is that a 4", 150-200A, 150-8.5 Ohm rheostat is an um,
unique piece of equipment. Why not show us a few photos George? Throw
in some shots of 300mm 150 Ohm nichrome wire while you're at it.
Wayne
You
"William Dryden" <william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
> news:You-AA0B87.1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> > In article <y7Hug.68659$Lm5....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>,
> > "William Dryden" <william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Those are modified sine wave, I do not care what THEY call them. You
> can
> > > not RUN a frequency counter on them. Too many harmonics. You have top
> use
> > > a 60Hz crystal oscillator.
> >
> > Have you ever SEEN a "60Hz Crystal Oscillator"?? as opposed to a 60Hz
> > timebase that divides down a Watch Crystal Oscillator to make 60Hz....
>
> Actually, I have. I have 2 of them. They are in TCXOs in my 2 inverters.
>
>
Bullshit, it is obvious that you don't have a "Clue" about the technology
that you are using. If one could actually cut a piece of Quartz to
resonate at 60Hz, it would be the size of your FIST. You may have a
TCXO Timebase that outputs 60Hz but crystal that is oscillating to make
that timebase, is running not at 60Hz, but at some very large Multiple
of 60Hz and then divided down to 60Hz in a divider chain. Just another
uneducated Techno-Babbler who doesn't understand the technology he has
sitting in his own house.........where do these guyss come up with this
stuff????
daestrom
"George Ghio" <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote in message
news:44bca314$0$30444$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> daestrom wrote:
>>
<snip>
>>> I was sure it couldn't get any funnier, but then came the Kelvin and
>>> mm (metric Ohms :-)) weaseling, despite the clarity of multiple
>>> quotes...
>>>
>>> "300 kOhms of ni-cr wire would work better" http://tinyurl.com/nwexx
>>> "300 K of ni-cr wire and an aligator clip will do the job"
>>> http://tinyurl.com/pqjvx
>>>
>>> 300 Kelvin Ohms? 300 mm Ohms? 300 Kelvins of wire?
>>>
>>
>> Oh, I'm sure George will say he deliberately used 'K' versus 'k' to "test
>> us". We all failed. But of course, if we *had* "twigged" on it, he
>> would have claimed we were just nit-picking. A deliberate setup to show
>> how 'superior' he is???
>>
>> daestrom
>>
> You really should read all the posts. What George had to say about it was,
> 17/7/06 10:08 PM:
>
> Well, as you want to buy in to the game lets consider your ignorance.
>
> The uppercase letter "K" is Kelvin in the energy game. Funny how neither
> you nor runaway twigged on to that.
>
> You can't even roast someone with out showing your lack of knowledge.
>
No, you're just putting words in other peoples mouths again. What's the
matter, not enough room in that mouth of yours??
I didn't 'twigged' on it because it is quite obvious by the usage what is
meant. If I 'twigged' everytime someone on usenet like you makes a silly
mistake between K, k, mw, MW, kW, kw, kw-hr, kW/hour, et.al., I wouldn't
have time to finish reading all the George/wayne flame wars. I leave the
more blatent ones for Nick to jump on. Not all of us are nit-picking,
assholes.
Just because someone lets *some* of your mistakes pass without comment, you
think we're all idiots? Then why do you make them in the first place? You
honestly think that *not* commenting on your occasional mistakes is some
sort of tacit agreement, or a show of ignorance? Nice attitude for a
prima-donna, too bad you don't have the skills/knowledge to back it up.
Now, go 'twig' on someone else's time.
daestrom
Solar Flare
it down to 60 Hz and comes out with a sine wave.
LOL
"You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:You-B4AF4F.1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Solar Flare
"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vNbvg.4097$8j3....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Solar Flare
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:fftpb2dko1kc0ahcs...@4ax.com...
George Ghio
dressmakers.
Seriously Daestrom, why are you so up set? I already said that I have no
idea why I made such a monumental stuff up with that particular post.
At a guess it would seem that the anger management course didn't help.
Perhaps you should increase the dose of your medication.
wmbjk
<gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>daestrom wrote:
>> Just because someone lets *some* of your mistakes pass without comment,
>> you think we're all idiots? Then why do you make them in the first
>> place? You honestly think that *not* commenting on your occasional
>> mistakes is some sort of tacit agreement, or a show of ignorance? Nice
>> attitude for a prima-donna, too bad you don't have the skills/knowledge
>> to back it up.
>>
>> Now, go 'twig' on someone else's time.
>>
>> daestrom
>>
>Seems that I have hit a nerve with you. That's the trouble with wannabe
>dressmakers.
>
>Seriously Daestrom, why are you so up set? I already said that I have no
>idea why I made such a monumental stuff up with that particular post.
Oh please. It came about because you were pretending to be
knowledgeable even though you didn't know Ohms from orange juice. And
you still don't.
>At a guess it would seem that the anger management course didn't help.
>Perhaps you should increase the dose of your medication.
You know George, I never could figure out why Daestrom generally made
an effort to show you respect long after most everyone else had
written you off as a nut. And I bet he's asking himself the same
question now that you've Ghioed him. You didn't have enough people
mocking your blunders already? Good going Ghinius.
Wayne
William Dryden
"You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
Suit yourself. We never discussed the physical size (or weight) of my
inverters.
Solar Flare
never show anybody respect. George isn't special in any way.
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:8mhsb2lij8jt9md81...@4ax.com...
George Ghio
Well let's look at your brilliant detective work. The post was a stuff
up, yes.
BUT;
It would not matter if the ni-cr wire was 300 mm or 300 kilometers or
even 300 thousand ohms. This is because in each case there would be a
length that allowed for full on through to full off on the alt.
The only thing that does not work is 300 Kelvin.
This being the case you, who knows everything there is to know about
every subject, failed to spot the only scenario that would not work at all.
Small wonder that you, who claims to own not one, but two watt meters,
can't define his systems loads.
Ya all have a nice day now.
--
wmbjk
<gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>Well let's look at your brilliant detective work. The post was a stuff
>up, yes.
>
>BUT;
A rational person would be mortified to have made such a colossal
blunder, and wouldn't attempt to defend it in any way. Rate your
irrationality by the number of times you've shamelessly pretended you
didn't err.
>It would not matter if the ni-cr wire was 300 mm
No George, a recommendation of 300 millimeters demonstrates
unfamiliarity with the concept. The application requires about 25
Ohms. At a practical diameter of 1 millimeter, 25 Ohms would be about
8 meters of wire, which is some 27 times longer than you'd have
readers believe.
> or 300 kilometers
No George, 300 kilometers is moronic.
>even 300 thousand ohms.
No George, someone recommending that repeatedly may as well be wearing
a dunce cap labeled "power consultant".
>This is because in each case there would be a
>length that allowed for full on through to full off on the alt.
No George. The idea of making a revised recommendation isn't to
rationalize previous errors, but to correct the original error with
information that's actually useful. Should there be anyone foolish
enough to pay for your absurd advice and follow it, they'd be entitled
to watch you babble your entire repertoire of transparent excuses in
front of a judge.
>The only thing that does not work is 300 Kelvin.
And yet you tried to deceive readers by bringing it up. The mind
boggles.
>This being the case you, who knows everything there is to know about
>every subject
Thank's anyway, but I imagine that to you pretty much everybody
appears to know all there is to know about every subject.
Wayne
You
"William Dryden" <william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Now there is a "clueless answer" from a "clueless person" about a
technology that he doesn't understand......
Day Brown
> On 15 Jul 2006 14:28:14 -0400, nicks...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>
>
>>George Ghio <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>... based on what I was taught to become an accredited designer
>>
>>The course was flawed.
>
>
> Such courses are generally a "license to learn", which was a concept
> doomed to failure in George's case.
>
> If any of those instructors have been keeping up with George's posting
> career, they're probably dreading the possibility that he might
> someday mention their names.
>
> Wayne
Well, I dont have time this week to read all the fucking posts; but I am
grateful of a couple points I picked up on. One that seems to be missed,
is that when I went to school, the "k" on a resistor didnt stand for
'kelvin' but 'kilo', as in kilohms. Didnt have anything to do with amps.
A "1k" resistor mite be the size of a pencil lead at 100 ma, the size of
the pencil for 5 amp, the size of a D cell for 50 amp. But all would be
the same 1k on the VOM at room temp.
Solar Flare
"You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:You-7A44AD.1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Solar Flare
http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=kilohm&action=Search+OMD
Since you want to exhibit OCD so badly...
WTF is a "mite"?
"Day Brown" <dayb...@wildblue.net> wrote in message
news:0bQvg.68$yB2.1...@news.sisna.com...
George Ghio
Upper case "K". It pays to read the posts before you comment
George Ghio
Sorry to burst your bubble but 300mm of ni-cr heater element is more
than enough.
The rest of your post is crap, but then you're just a dingle berry to
that isn't surprising
wmbjk
No George, 300mm (11.8") of nichrome wire with 25 ohms resistance and
hooked to an alternator field, is called a fuse not a resistor. It
would be about 5 thousandths of an inch in diameter
http://www.wiretron.com/nicrdat.html, which is about the thickness of
a human hair. I'm guessing you don't have a photo of this wire...
Please post the contact details of that course you took. I'd like to
forward some of your posts to the school. Perhaps they can recall you
as the auto companies do for deficient vehicles.
Wayne
wmbjk
<sole...@hotomali.invalidated> wrote:
>"Day Brown" <dayb...@wildblue.net> wrote in message
>news:0bQvg.68$yB2.1...@news.sisna.com...
>> the "k" on a resistor
>> didnt stand for 'kelvin' but 'kilo', as in kilohms.
>Here is the real definition.
>http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=kilohm&action=Search+OMD
Great job sharing your recent education there Gymmy Bob. What a
shocker that 103 Ohms made such perfect sense that you wanted to
share.
Perhaps that outfit cheaped out by using a "rebel" web editor who
figured that 10^3 was a typo.
Wayne
William Dryden
"You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
Enjoy your stupidity. I have to go fix a 100KHz transmitter. Since I have
to redo the plumbing for the finals, I may be gone for a long time.
George Ghio
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 22:04:45 +1000, George Ghio
> <gh...@nobodyhome.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Sorry to burst your bubble but 300mm of ni-cr heater element is more
>> than enough.
>
> No George, 300mm (11.8") of nichrome wire with 25 ohms resistance and
> hooked to an alternator field, is called a fuse not a resistor. It
> would be about 5 thousandths of an inch in diameter
> http://www.wiretron.com/nicrdat.html, which is about the thickness of
> a human hair. I'm guessing you don't have a photo of this wire...
25 ohms and 5 thou. wire are you numbers, not mine. Looks like another lie.
>
> Please post the contact details of that course you took. I'd like to
> forward some of your posts to the school. Perhaps they can recall you
> as the auto companies do for deficient vehicles.
>
> Wayne
--
You
"William Dryden" <william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Good on you, so your foolishness will not be had around the internet for
a while...... 100Khz Huh.... Must be a Coastie....no wonder....that
explains a lot...... got your electronics expierence out of a Post
Toasties Box....
Solar Flare
"You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:You-029061.0...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Solar Flare
here. When there is a typo you make huge deal if it benefits your
stupid causes, if you have any that aren't just spamming or trolling.
When it benefits somebody else or is just a joke you make a huge deal
out of it trying to hide your insecurity.
You fit the classic "Troll" definition. Always trying to invoke, at
least one person, to respond to your stupid ranting. Your rants are
mostly non group topic related except for welding a tower or some
other goofy scrap of metal.
You would be much more successful to just sit back and relax and stop
trying to always grandstand your cunning array of stunts and vice
versa. Not very impressive.
I'll await your intelligent comeback and how it reflects your helpful
attitude towards furthering the sports here. Very sad person, you, the
troll.
Say hi to all your other personalities in all your other groups. Maybe
conserve some energy from your "supposed" off-grid system and get
off-line and off the Internet grid too.
"wmbjk" <wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:cts1c25n8auv6dh0p...@4ax.com...
Solar Flare
is really what this is about.
I am sure Weiner has pictures, or at least a penis to show us. He has
everything else.
No pics? I guess you must have imagined one Weiner. I am sure George
has one.
No pics? No win.
William Dryden
"You" <Y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
Civilian RF tech. FCC GMDSS license with radar endorsement. I have 31
years experience from 1.8 MHz to 23.8 GHz. This trip, I'm taking a EE from
MIT with me because he has VLF experience I want to gain.
If your the brains of this newsgroup, where is your EE from, Kennedy
University?
You
"William Dryden" <william...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Well, sonny, your Wallpaper really doesn't measure up, but just for
grins, let's compare.....
Licenses First Class RadioTelephone license with Radar Endorsement
and First Class Radio Telegraph License with Aircraft Endorsement
Cred's General RadioTelephone License / GMDSS Maintainer Certificate
Retired FCC Field Inspector(Still have my Badge and Credentials)
Certified PCIA Communications Technician
Communications Consultant in Remote-Site Comm's Engineering
Member of Regional FCC Marine Advisory Council/Past President
Certified US SOLAS Ship Inspector
and the above just covers the Electronics portion of my careers......
Did you need that MIT EE, to show you how to replumb the coolant loops,
or maybe supply the brains for the trip......