"Bloom Energy"
harry k
except for this thread. Someone tells me they will power a house with
a 6" cube and replace all electrical distrubution systems and I will
be looking for the guys inthe white coats.
I would think that news such as that would be all over the media.
"Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom
Energy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to
have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost
effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and
said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas,
methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company
is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the
distribution grid."
Continues with further details and claims that big companies, google
included, are already using "big" units.
Harry K
harry
> What is up with this? �I haven't seen or heard anything about it
> except for this thread. �Someone tells me they will power a house with
> a 6" cube and replace all electrical distrubution systems and I will
> be looking for the guys inthe white coats.
>
> I would think that news such as that would be all over the media.
>
>
> "Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night on Bloom
> Energy? � They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to
> have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost
> effective. � They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and
> said that it was sufficient to power a house. � It runs off nat gas,
> methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. � The goal of the company
> is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the
> distribution grid."
>
> Continues with further details and claims that big companies, google
> included, are already using "big" units.
>
> Harry K
Well supposing it works, a disribution grid will still be needed for
the gas.
vaughn
"harry" <susan.a...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:2135f1fe-2d96-4a07...@b10g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
>Well supposing it works, a disribution grid will still be needed for the gas.
Not to mention, some vast new source of gas...
Vaughn
Bruce in alaska
"vaughn" <vaugh...@gmail.invalid> wrote:
We got Lots of NatGAS, up here in Alaska... and if your FlatLander
Politicos will get out of our way, we will be MORE than Happy to sell
you ALL the NG that you want, FOR CASH....
Bloom has a Good Technology, and has Demonstration Units, actually IN
THE FIELD, and online, and has for a couple of YEARS. The Home Units
estimated Costs, once produced, are said to be in the $3KUS range, which
is about the same as a Good 3Kw Inverter, which is REQUIRED to make it
power a House. The domestic Units are NOY yet available, or even out inn
the field for testing. I am NOT holding my breath on the price, or the
availability, of these domestic units. Let alone actually seeing the
costs/KW Hour, and longevity, or serviceability, of the system.
--
Bruce in alaska
add <path> after <fast> to reply
Bob F
You seem to know a bit about these. Do you have any idea of the expected life
with standard US household natural gas?
Could these be used to power electric cars?
Bruce in alaska
"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am waiting for the Published Specs, none of which are available at
this point in time... When they publish these Specs, I will take another
Look, but as of NOW all they have released just FLUFF, but the
Industrial Units are proving themselves in Operation....
vaughn
"Bruce in alaska" <fa...@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:fast-8AD778.1...@news.starband.net...
>
> I am waiting for the Published Specs, none of which are available at
> this point in time... When they publish these Specs, I will take another
> Look, but as of NOW all they have released just FLUFF, but the
> Industrial Units are proving themselves in Operation....
There is nothing new about fuel cells. NASA has been using them forever.
Economical and practical residential fuel cell have been "1 or 2 years away" for
at least the last 15 years so a bit of skepticism is perfectly in order.
A fuel cell that runs from anything except pure hydrogen actually has two parts,
both of them expensive, finicky, and short-lived (given current technology).
There is the fuel cell itself (which only runs from hydrogen) and the reformer,
which "cracks" the hydrogen from the fuel and then purifies it for the fuel
cell.
Vaughn
Bob F
They seem to be implying otherwise on these ones. Maybe we'll see some day.
Robert Copcutt
> Could these be used to power electric cars?
>
>
The Bloom system is a flat plate solid oxide fuel cell (SOFC) according
to the video. That means they are delicate and take a while to heat up.
Not suitable for cars!
Robert Copcutt
>
> A fuel cell that runs from anything except pure hydrogen actually has two parts,
> both of them expensive, finicky, and short-lived (given current technology).
> There is the fuel cell itself (which only runs from hydrogen) and the reformer,
> which "cracks" the hydrogen from the fuel and then purifies it for the fuel
> cell.
>
With an SOFC you can closely link the reformer with the FC stack. The
heat from the stack keeps the reformer at temperature. That is what we
did with the SOFC used to drive the car shown at the top of this webpage;
http://www.copcutt.me.uk/globalwarm.htm back in 1995.
z
$8K4.1...@newsfe15.ams2:
Saw a story on it yesterday on the news and they were saying the same
thing. It's got to be fixed mounted and won't be replacing engines or
laptop batteries, but according to the company it can run on natural gas
or similar gasses (propane etc) saying that the electricity cost is
around 11 cents a kwh, which is pretty good. I think that is what folk
pay around here, but if it ran off propane I'd get one (assuming it would
last) for my off grid.
The dude was saying those flat plates are stackable, so I guess they are
designed to where you can add more plates or cells to meet your energy
needs.. so they'll be able to offer different sizes very easily (from a
manufacturing point of view). THis is all what they say.. not what any
independant tester has said though.
We'll see. I'm curious how long I can run my house on a 5 gal can of
propane using one of those things. I'd be a nice change from the ol
honda generator that gets turned on when the solar/hydro driven batteries
are out of juice
-z
Bob F
m II
> We got Lots of NatGAS, up here in Alaska... and if your FlatLander
> Politicos will get out of our way, we will be MORE than Happy to sell
> you ALL the NG that you want, FOR CASH....
Not everyone wants to see Alaska paved over.
While we're at it, don't buy any Canadian Tar Sands oil either. The
stuff is an environmental disaster.
mike
Bruce in alaska
Untill you come up and actually LIVE here, we don't need you FlatLanders
trying to tell US how to live... How about if WE Alaskans come to where
you live, and start telling YOU have to live..... would that be OK with
you, Mikey....
z
66752A.104...@unknown.hwng.net:
Just be glad you don't have California on your Southern border.
Brad Guth
> What is up with this? I haven't seen or heard anything about it
> except for this thread. Someone tells me they will power a house with
> a 6" cube and replace all electrical distrubution systems and I will
> be looking for the guys inthe white coats.
>
> I would think that news such as that would be all over the media.
>
>
> "Did anyone else here see the 60 Minutes segment last night onBloomEnergy? They are a CA based start-up company that is supposed to
> have a revolutionary fuel cell technology that is simple and cost
> effective. They showed a cube that was maybe 6" on each side and
> said that it was sufficient to power a house. It runs off nat gas,
> methane, possibly other carbon based fuels. The goal of the company
> is to have one in each house, business, etc and eliminate the
> distribution grid."
>
> Continues with further details and claims that big companies, google
> included, are already using "big" units.
>
> Harry K
I'm certain that such Bloom Box energy as derived from natural gas
does work, although it's spendier than what we're being informed of.
I'm thinking the initial energy cost of $0.22 < 0.25/kwhr once
everything is taken into account, and then we prey the cost per therm
doesn't skyrocket, such as in the winter when demand is greatest..
As a reliable and clean UPS alternative that'll cost loads to buy,
install and maintain, perhaps $0.25/kwhr isn't half bad.
Here's my revised estimate:
I'd believe it’s more like at least $36,000 for a 24 kw Bloom unit
($1500/kw), and by then the price per natural gas therm at perhaps
twice whatever it's currently running seems likely.
The retrofit cost of getting a commercial grade of NG into an average
residence is by itself worth tens of thousands of dollars (figure
another $50,000 if that NG utility upgrade includes their HVAC and all
major appliances), as well as something for multiplying those number
of residential fires, explosions and CO2 caused deaths from this
increased NG infrastructure and usage should be fairly obvious.
Of course you may require up to half of that 24 kw Bloom Box energy
just to recharge your $50,000 all electric cars (at least two per
residence at perhaps 32 kwhr each) that'll each also require a new
spendy battery at least every three years.
The average mid/upper-class residential NG consumption of 1200 therms/
year should w/Bloom in place of whatever electric utility from the
local grid, might go upwards towards 12,000 therms/year, and at $3/
therm that's going to hurt a little, not to mention those having to
pay $4/therm (only the lucky ones will ever get to pay $2/therm).
You don’t seriously think those future natural gas prices and their
soon to be applied energy taxes are ever going to fall from here on
out, do you?
The natural gas utility as a mandatory community infrastructure and
subsequent property assessment where I live could easily exceed
$50,000 all by itself, and that's not even including getting that NG
into my home. In most places current provided with piped in NG, at
times there’s not sufficient capacity as is w/o Bloom Boxes, so we’re
talking about a nation-wide upgrade in that volumetric supply of
methane and a verity of other elements, none of which are
environmentally friendly.
What's the annual maintenance cost on a 24 KW (100 amp at 240 VAC)
Bloom Box?
If there’s any spendy batteries involved (especially on these 12 KW or
lower capacity units), how much are those going to cost/year to
maintain?
Rental homes or condos will be lucky if such equipment (at 900 kg/kw)
isn’t often taken for it’s scrap alloy and black market value. So,
perhaps we’d need to include a substantial vault or secure jail as
part of its installation.
If we believe Bloom’s 60% conversion efficiency, this should give 17.5
kwhr per therm. If the cost per NG therm can be kept or market
forced to stay at or below $1 would suggest $0.057/kwhr (not including
the added investments and servicing necessary), whereas all-inclusive
other cost of perhaps adding another ten cents per kwhr makes the
Bloom energy gross out at $0.16/kwhr as based upon $1/therm that’s
highly unlikely, whereas $2/therm is more likely and will make that
energy worth $0.22/kwhr.
Bloom Box energy seems perfectly ideal for the rich and powerful, or
for those corporate and government usage where its all-inclusive
investment and operational cost are seldom if ever considerations, but
otherwise Bloom is not so great for most of us.
Perhaps this is where Mook's green H2 consumption is a whole lot
better idea, or at least as a 25/75 blend of H2/NG, whereas <12 KW
Bloom units could manage on existing NG capacity if fewer than half
the homes per community are taking their share.
~ BG
Dorsai
> Here's my revised estimate:
> I'd believe it’s more like at least $36,000 for a 24 kw Bloom unit
> ($1500/kw), and by then the price per natural gas therm at perhaps twice
> whatever it's currently running seems likely.
>
> The retrofit cost of getting a commercial grade of NG into an average
> residence is by itself worth tens of thousands of dollars (figure
> another $50,000 if that NG utility upgrade includes their HVAC and all
> major appliances), as well as something for multiplying those number of
> residential fires, explosions and CO2 caused deaths from this increased
> NG infrastructure and usage should be fairly obvious.
>
...
> Bloom Box energy seems perfectly ideal for the rich and powerful, or for
> those corporate and government usage where its all-inclusive investment
> and operational cost are seldom if ever considerations, but otherwise
> Bloom is not so great for most of us.
Pity so many of the _tech_ news reports on the things specify that
they'll operate on pretty much any hydrocarbon - propane, biodiesel,
whatever. Kinda shoots all that NG math in the ass...
Of course, that's figuring Bloom doesn't go all industrial and start mass-
producing them in varying sizes. And somebody doesn't figure out how to
utilize some/most of the byproducts to supplement other needs. And that
distributing the things all over creation doesn't result in savings in
reduced power grid needs.
Nice rant, though.
Dorsai
--
Dorsai -- Author of Erotic Fiction
http://www.asstr.org/~Dorsai
vaughn
"Dorsai" <Asstr....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9w1jn.40825$K81....@newsfe18.iad...
> Pity so many of the _tech_ news reports on the things specify that
> they'll operate on pretty much any hydrocarbon - propane, biodiesel,
> whatever. Kinda shoots all that NG math in the ass...
How so? What fuel do you expect will be cheaper than NG?
Vaughn
Brad Guth
> "Dorsai" <Asstr.Dor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Mook's green hydrogen is supposed to become dirt cheap.
What's a volume of hydrogen gas that'll deliver a therm (100,000 btu),
and what’s the Bloom efficiency when run on a therm of hydrogen? (370
cf or 10.5 m3 at 1.1 bar = ?? kwhr)
Of course H2 could be supplied at 2 bar (+14.7 psi), thus providing
<540 btu/cf, roughly half if what methane(CH4) provides within the
residence.
Hydrogen gas distribution mains at <1500 psi = 27000 btu/cf.
~ BG
vaughn
"Brad Guth" <brad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:498d1f3d-7863-4bf4...@t9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> How so? What fuel do you expect will be cheaper than NG?
>
> Vaughn
>Mook's green hydrogen is supposed to become dirt cheap.
It takes energy to make hydrogen, and then you still have to transport it.
Since hydrogen has a low energy density, transportation turns into a real
problem. In short, I don't expect to ever see cheap hydrogen.
So who is Mook?
Vaughn
Bruce in alaska
<498d1f3d-7863-4bf4...@t9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Brad Guth <brad...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder who this Mook Guy is... but Hydrogen in Gaseous Form will NEVER
be viable in a Transport type Pipeline as Fuel... Not near Dense
enough... and way to Volatile.....
Now 35 Years ago one of my Partners came up with a viable way to produce
and transport Hydrogen as a Transportation Fuel... It only REQUIRES one
Break-Thru in the Technology of TODAYS World... You need TWO 2000
MegaWatt Fusion Power Plants. You site these out away from the
population areas, like in the desert. The first one generates power that
is used to electrolyze the Hydrogen, and you dump the Oxygen to
atmosphere, so that when you Oxidize the Hydrogen it is available for
use. The Second unit generates Power for the population, and to Liquify
the Hydrogen, used to Cool the SuperConductors used to transport the
Power AND Liquid Hydrogen from the Generation Point to the Population
Centers. If you have a Fault in the Distribution System, it is REALLY
easy to spot, you just look for the "SMOKING HOLE" in the Ground where
the Fault WAS..... My partner is Brilliant, and a PHD in EE... IQ
higher than 160... We are still waiting for Fusion to be invented.....
Long Wait.....
vaughn
"Bruce in alaska" <fa...@btpost.net> wrote in message
news:fast-F9B482.2...@news.starband.net...
> In article
>You need TWO 2000 MegaWatt Fusion Power Plants. You site these out away from
>the
>population areas, like in the desert.
Well if fusion turns out to be as safe as they claim, then they will not need to
be sited in the desert. Of course, it would need to be sited near some massive
heat sink. We could also hake hydrogen with fission energy, but it would be
terribly expensive.
Vaughn
Neo
electric generator turbine running on NG and Bloom NG Fuel
Cell? What is the cost differential for units which generate the
same sustained power outputs?
On Feb 23, 10:13 am, harry k <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What is up with this? I haven't seen or heard anything about it
> except for this thread. Someone tells me they will power a house with
> a 6" cube and replace all electrical distrubution systems and I will
> be looking for the guys inthe white coats.
>
> I would think that news such as that would be all over the media.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_frm/thread/a060...
vaughn
"Neo" <residualse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c22a2982-f796-40e3...@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>What's the efficiency difference between using an (emergency)
>electric generator turbine running on NG and Bloom NG Fuel
>Cell?
Home-sized turbines are very inefficient. Gas turbines just don't scale down
well. Virtually *anything* would be more efficient, .that's why they basically
don't exist
> What is the cost differential for units which generate the same sustained
> power outputs?
We can't know because the Bloom unit is still unobtanium.
Vaughn
You
<c22a2982-f796-40e3...@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
Neo <residualse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What's the efficiency difference between using an (emergency)
> electric generator turbine running on NG and Bloom NG Fuel
> Cell? What is the cost differential for units which generate the
> same sustained power outputs?
Apparently the maintainance on the BloomBoxs is negligible in the short
Term, when compared with ANY mechanical Power Generation Systems, both
short and long Term. I would expect that the BloomBox efficiency is
likely somewhat better in Total BTU's IN to Total Power Generated OUT,
due to that any mechanical Power Generation System System is less than
40%, in total BTU Effecentcy. We are still waiting for Official Data on
these issues...
vaughn
"You" <y...@shadow.orgs> wrote in message
news:you-93AE38.1...@unknown.hwng.net...
>
> Apparently the maintainance on the BloomBoxs is negligible in the short
> Term,
>when compared with ANY mechanical Power Generation Systems, both
> short and long Term. I would expect that the BloomBox efficiency is
> likely somewhat better in Total BTU's IN to Total Power Generated OUT,
> due to that any mechanical Power Generation System System is less than
> 40%, in total BTU Effecentcy.
Most fuel cells have high efficiency compared to mechanical devices, but the
question here is the efficiency of the Bloom fuel cell plus its associated fuel
reformer.
> We are still waiting for Official Data on these issues...
Exactly
Vaughn
Neo
Thanks you for your response.
So theoretically, the Bloom fuel cell should have an energy efficiency
advantage over those residential size NG emergency generators like
the ones I saw in Michigan several years ago - if it is coupled with
an energy efficient fuel system.
Slightly off topic (because this question is for commerical
and not a home application) --- Should a Bloom-cell-based
generator be theoretically signficantly more energy-efficient
than an equivalently powered industrial size mechanical
turbines burning methane gas (e.g. the kind that a
landfill would use to generate electricity commerically)?
Brad Guth
> "Brad Guth" <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
William speaks loudly enough for himself. Use Google Groups 'search"
and you can't possibly miss him. (he's also on the web and in fuzzy
video format to boot)
btw; what's wrong with Bloom energy at $0.25/kwhr, as long as it's
reliable and relatively squeaky clean? Aren't you middle-class and
set for life at $200,000/year or better?
~ BG
Brad Guth
> In article
> <498d1f3d-7863-4bf4-a675-e4dcaa5aa...@t9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Your unfounded fears of hydrogen is noted. Gasoline is potentially at
least ten fold worse, so are you planning to outlaw the production,
distribution and use of gasoline?
~ BG
Brad Guth
> "Bruce in alaska" <f...@btpost.net> wrote in messagenews:fast-F9B482.2...@news.starband.net...
>
> > In article
> >You need TWO 2000 MegaWatt Fusion Power Plants. You site these out away from
> >the
> >population areas, like in the desert.
>
> Well if fusion turns out to be as safe as they claim, then they will not need to
> be sited in the desert. Of course, it would need to be sited near some massive
> heat sink. We could also hake hydrogen with fission energy, but it would be
> terribly expensive.
>
> Vaughn
Your scary infomercial on behalf of protecting Big Energy is noted.
~ BG
vaughn
>Your scary infomercial on behalf of protecting Big Energy is noted.
Your conspiracy delusions are noted.
Now do you have something to say about homepower is has this discussion devolved
into some type of a personal political soapbox for you?
Vaughn
vaughn
>
>> Now 35 Years ago one of my Partners came up with a viable way to produce
>> and transport Hydrogen as a Transportation Fuel... It only REQUIRES one
>> Break-Thru in the Technology of TODAYS World... You need TWO 2000
>> MegaWatt Fusion Power Plants. You site these out away from the
>> population areas, like in the desert. The first one generates power that
>> is used to electrolyze the Hydrogen, and you dump the Oxygen to
>> atmosphere, so that when you Oxidize the Hydrogen it is available for
>> use. The Second unit generates Power for the population, and to Liquify
>> the Hydrogen, used to Cool the SuperConductors used to transport the
>> Power AND Liquid Hydrogen from the Generation Point to the Population
>> Centers. If you have a Fault in the Distribution System, it is REALLY
>> easy to spot, you just look for the "SMOKING HOLE" in the Ground where
>> the Fault WAS..... My partner is Brilliant, and a PHD in EE... IQ
>> higher than 160... We are still waiting for Fusion to be invented.....
>> Long Wait.....
>
>least ten fold worse, so are you planning to outlaw the production,
>distribution and use of gasoline?
What I read is that Bruce outlined some of the very real physical problems
involved in the use of hydrogen and even suggested some future solutions. So
why don't you first point out the place where Bruce implied that the production,
distribution and use of hydrogen should be outlawed?
Vaughn
Curbie
I thought the thousands of miles per year you peddle your bicycle was
a "scary infomercial on behalf of protecting Big Energy", but I must
be watching a different channel.
I wonder what this guy is doing to make the energy situation better
besides encouraging people to sit on their hands and wait for Mook or
someone else to ignore the "what the market will bear" free market
principal and solve the all their energy problems for them, for "dirt
cheap".
I must be watching a different channel again, but that sounds like a
scary infomercial on behalf of protecting Big Energy. (Whatever "Big
Energy" is?)
Curbie
You
<98b87762-540c-4992...@t9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Brad Guth <brad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your unfounded fears of hydrogen is noted. Gasoline is potentially at
> least ten fold worse, so are you planning to outlaw the production,
> distribution and use of gasoline?
>
> ~ BG
and your understanding of Energy Density, and Catastrophic Energy
Release Potentials is seriously Lacking....
Climb back under that Rock, you crawled out from under, till you grow up
and learn something, useful.....
Michael B
On Mar 3, 2:18 am, Bruce in alaska <f...@btpost.net> wrote:
> In article
> <498d1f3d-7863-4bf4-a675-e4dcaa5aa...@t9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
Michael B
mentioned in this newsgroup.
Details for a start at http://cleanenergy-energystocks.com/
Robert Copcutt
>
> Slightly off topic (because this question is for commerical
> and not a home application) --- Should a Bloom-cell-based
> generator be theoretically signficantly more energy-efficient
> than an equivalently powered industrial size mechanical
> turbines burning methane gas (e.g. the kind that a
> landfill would use to generate electricity commerically)?
>
>
A well engineered SOFC (like the Bloom cell) will get nearly 50%
efficiency at full power which is similar to a combined cycle gas
turbine. However, the SOFC will see much greater efficiencies at low
load. Also, you can add a turbine to run off the waste heat from the
SOFC and get full load efficiencies, for the combination, of about 70%.