Great quotes on secular character of US by Founding Fathers!
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Subject: Great quotes on secular character of US by Founding Fathers!
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:19:52 -0600
President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular
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Subject: President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular
Great quotes on secular character of US by Founding Fathers!
by Jim Walker
Some people today assert that the United States government came from
Christian foundations. They argue that our political system represents a
Christian ideal form of government and that Jefferson, Madison, et al, had
simply expressed Christian values while framing the Constitution. If this
proved true, then we should have a wealth of evidence to support it, yet
just the opposite proves the case.
Although, indeed, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced
Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from
traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that
began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy.
These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of
relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide.
The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke,
Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and
Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a
grounding post for their scientific reasoning.
A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the
Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T.
Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were
members of congregations."
The Founding Fathers, also, rarely practiced Christian orthodoxy. Although
they supported the free exercise of any religion, they understood the
dangers of religion. Most of them believed in deism and attended
Freemasonry lodges. According to John J. Robinson, "Freemasonry had been a
powerful force for religious freedom." Freemasons took seriously the
principle that men should worship according to their own conscious. Masonry
welcomed anyone from any religion or non-religion, as long as they believed
in a Supreme Being. Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton, Lafayette, and
many others accepted Freemasonry.
The Constitution reflects our founders views of a secular government,
protecting the freedom of any belief or unbelief. The historian, Robert
Middlekauff, observed, "the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral
view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention,
and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety."
George Washington
Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems
influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes
from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a Christian minister
portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington's own diaries
show that he rarely attended Church.
Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind,
hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name
of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his
Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation
occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a
Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.
***************************************
[Jim Walker is incorrect on one point. The name Jesus Christ did orrur in
one writing:
The fact that, at least so far, only one reference to Jesus or Jesus
Christ has been found is pretty powerful evidence.
The plus is that one reference speaks volumes. Thirty some volumes of
writings in his own hand and only one reference to Jesus Christ and that
in a letter addressed to Native Americans
...and it was written by Washington's Aide...though he signed it.
>====================================
>How did you ever find this?
xxxxx A "fundie" Sec Web member who may have been quoting a D. Barton
reference. He didn't know the accurate source, or where he had read
it, but indicated that Washington had talked about Jesus to the Indians. I
spent hours surfing the net until I found it. Then I offered, what I
believed was an honest and sincere potential explanation for why Washington
had allowed "Jesus" to remain in the text of that specific message...though
I had no specific proof for my scenario other than associated events,
existing attitudes of the day, and timing. (Both sides used
Indians...sometimes brutally. This did not sit well with Washington's
frontiersmen volunteers. They didn't trust having bands of Indians on their
flanks given their real world experiences with Indians in the recent past.
By making it seem that Washington's Indian allies would be under the
influence/control of Christian ideologies, it might help reduce the
internal animosities between his troops....and anyone else who was
anti-Indian. Washington needed support from any and all quarters/where he
could find or create it.]
**************************************
To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said
that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to
the dictates of his own conscience."
After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a
Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied,
"Sir, Washington was a Deist."
Thomas Jefferson
Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his
letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe
in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire
the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he
believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr,
10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a
god."
Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted
to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819,
he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself,
as far as I know."
John Adams
Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a
letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the
Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of
Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under
that denomination." JOHN ADAMS
In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States
of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of
governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now
sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture,
hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in
their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American
governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in
America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be
pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the
gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those
at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it
will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely
by the use of reason and the senses.
". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the
natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or
mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that
whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights
of mankind."
James Madison
Called the father of the Constitution, Madison had no conventional sense of
Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance
against Religious Assessments:
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all
places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the
laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny
on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen
upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been
the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert
the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient
auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it,
needs them not."
Benjamin Franklin
Although Franklin received religious training, his nature forced him to
rebel against the irrational tenets of his parents Christianity. His
Autobiography revels his skepticism, "My parents had given me betimes
religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in
the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of
age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I
found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of
Revelation itself.
". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that
they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them;
for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared
to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through
Deist."
In an essay on "Toleration," Franklin wrote:
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in
Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been
persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians
thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one
another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution
in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it
wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here
[England] and in New England."
Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him:
"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character
and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and
also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's
Autobiography)
Thomas Paine
This freethinker and author of several books, influenced more early
Americans than any other writer. Although he held Deist beliefs, he wrote
in his famous The Age of Reason:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman
church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church
that I know of. My own mind is my church. "
"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more
derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to
reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called
Christianity. "
The U.S. Constitution
The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon
Christianity comes from the very document that defines it-- the United
States Constitution.
If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would
seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their
Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in
the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus,
or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they
both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment's says, "Congress shall
make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article
VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a
qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the
Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American
people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting
an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'
thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation between
church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in the
Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say "freedom
of religion," yet the First Amendment implies both.
As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the
Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of
the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting
"Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus
Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the
great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle
of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan,
the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church and
State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution, also held
similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward Livingston, 10
July 1822:
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one
has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater
purity, the less they are mixed together."
Today, if ever our government needed proof that the separation of church
and State works to ensure the freedom of religion, one only need to look at
the plethora of Churches, temples, and shrines that exist in the cities and
towns throughout the United States. Only a secular government, divorced
from religion could possibly allow such tolerant diversity.
The Declaration of Independence
Many Christians who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually
present the Declaration as "proof." The reason appears obvious: the
document mentions God. However, the God in the Declaration does not
describe Christianity's God. It describes "the Laws of Nature and of
Nature's God." This nature's view of God agrees with deist philosophy but
any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail
for this reason alone. ARTICLE XI FROM THE TREATY OF TRIPOLI
More significantly, the Declaration does not represent the law of the land
as it came before the Constitution. The Declaration aimed at announcing
their separation from Great Britain and listed the various grievances with
the "thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great
Britain no longer hold, and we have more than thirteen states. Today, the
Declaration represents an important historical document about rebellious
intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our
independent government. Although the Declaration may have influential
power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets, and judges may mention
it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. Our presidents,
judges and policemen must take an oath to uphold the Constitution, but
never to the Declaration of Independence.
Of course the Declaration depicts a great political document, as it aimed
at a future government upheld by citizens instead of a religious monarchy.
It observed that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all come
inborn with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
That "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." The
Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by Christianity, nor does
it imply anything about a Christian foundation.
Treaty of Tripoli
Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government
divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not
require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an
unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few
foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an
insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s
explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign
nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the
United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary,"
most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
Joel Barlow
U.S. Consul General of Algiers
Copyright National Portait Gallery Smithsonian Institution/Art Resource NY
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as
the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against
any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising
from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony
existing between the two countries."
The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of
George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American
diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the
treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain
in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson,
and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy
for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along
with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified
the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added
Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval
in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John
Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the
Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially
ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All
during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised
the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its
publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.
So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government
did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of
Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according
to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).
Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only
lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly
represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the
U.S. government.
Common Law
SIGNERS OF THE TREATY OF TRIPOLI
According to the Constitution's 7th Amendment: "In suits at common law. . .
the right of trial by jury shall be preserved; and no fact, tried by a
jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States than
according to the rules of the common law."
Here, many Christians believe that common law came from Christian
foundations and therefore the Constitution derives from it. They use
various quotes from Supreme Court Justices proclaiming that Christianity
came as part of the laws of England, and therefore from its common law
heritage.
But one of our principle Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, elaborated
about the history of common law in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February
10, 1814:
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced
by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time
by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta,
which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took
place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not
introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian
king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of
the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during
which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.
". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period,
supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have
existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the
common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt
Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the
settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them,
that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they
were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the
close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of
adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and
writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the
common law."
In the same letter, Jefferson examined how the error spread about
Christianity and common law. Jefferson realized that a misinterpretation
had occurred with a Latin term by Prisot, "*ancien scripture*," in
reference to common law history. The term meant "ancient scripture" but
people had incorrectly interpreted it to mean "Holy Scripture," thus
spreading the myth that common law came from the Bible. Jefferson writes:
"And Blackstone repeats, in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, that
'Christianity is part of the laws of England,' citing Ventris and Strange
ubi surpa. 4. Blackst. 59. Lord Mansfield qualifies it a little by saying
that 'The essential principles of revealed religion are part of the common
law." In the case of the Chamberlain of London v. Evans, 1767. But he cites
no authority, and leaves us at our peril to find out what, in the opinion
of the judge, and according to the measure of his foot or his faith, are
those essential principles of revealed religion obligatory on us as a part
of the common law."
Thus we find this string of authorities, when examined to the beginning,
all hanging on the same hook, a perverted expression of Priscot's, or on
one another, or nobody."
The Encyclopedia Britannica, also describes the Saxon origin and adds: "The
nature of the new common law was at first much influenced by the principles
of Roman law, but later it developed more and more along independent
lines." Also prominent among the characteristics that derived out of common
law include the institution of the jury, and the right to speedy trial.
Christian Sources
Virtually all the evidence that attempts to connect a foundation of
Christianity upon the government rests mainly on quotes and opinions from a
few of the colonial statesmen who had professed a belief in Christianity.
Sometimes the quotes come from their youth before their introduction to
Enlightenment ideas or simply from personal beliefs. But statements of
beliefs, by themselves, say nothing about Christianity as the source of the
U.S. government.
There did occur, however, some who wished a connection between church and
State. Patrick Henry, for example, proposed a tax to help sustain "some
form of Christian worship" for the state of Virginia. But Jefferson and
other statesmen did not agree. In 1779, Jefferson introduced a bill for the
Statute for Religious Freedom which became Virginia law. Jefferson designed
this law to completely separate religion from government. None of Henry's
Christian views ever got introduced into Virginia's or U.S. Government law.
Unfortunately, later developments in our government have clouded early
history. The original Pledge of Allegiance, authored by Francis Bellamy in
1892 did not contain the words "under God." Not until June 1954 did those
words appear in the Allegiance. The United States currency never had "In
God We Trust" printed on money until after the Civil War. Many Christians
who visit historical monuments and see the word "God" inscribed in stone,
automatically impart their own personal God of Christianity, without
understanding the Framers Deist context.
In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice
David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Many Christians use
this as evidence. However, Brewer wrote this in dicta, as a personal
opinion only and does not serve as a legal pronouncement. Later Brewer felt
obliged to explain himself: "But in what sense can [the United States] be
called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the
established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support
it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress
shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all
its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all
religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess
other religions, and many reject all."
Conclusion
The Framers derived an independent government out of Enlightenment thinking
against the grievances caused by Great Britain. Our Founders paid little
heed to political beliefs about Christianity. The 1st Amendment stands as
the bulkhead against an establishment of religion and at the same time
insures the free expression of any belief. The Treaty of Tripoli, an
instrument of the Constitution, clearly stated our non-Christian
foundation. We inherited common law from Great Britain which derived from
pre-Christian Saxons rather than from Biblical scripture.
Today we have powerful Christian organizations who work to spread
historical myths about early America and attempt to bring a Christian
theocracy to the government. If this ever happens, then indeed, we will
have ignored the lessons from history. Fortunately, most liberal Christians
today agree with the principles of separation of church and State, just as
they did in early America.
"They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country
mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm
that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the
clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point"
-Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835
Bibliography
Borden, Morton, "Jews, Turks, and Infidels," The University of North
Carolina Press, 1984
Boston, Robert, "Why the Religious Right is Wrong About Separation of
Church & State, "Prometheus Books, 1993
Boston, F. Andrews, et al, "The Writings of George Washington," (12 Vols.),
Charleston, S.C., 1833-37
Fitzpatrick, John C., ed., "The Diaries of George Washington, 1748-1799,"
Houghton Mifflin Company: Published for the Mount Vernon Ladies Association
of the Union, 1925
Gay, Kathlyn, "Church and State,"The Millbrook Press," 1992
Handy, Robert, T., "A History of the Churches in U.S. and Canada," New
York: Oxford University Press, 1977
Hayes, Judith, "All those Christian Presidents," [The American Rationalist,
March/April 1997]
Kock, Adrienne, ed., "The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the
American Experiment and a Free Society," New York: George Braziller, 1965
Mapp, Jr, Alf J., "Thomas Jefferson," Madison Books, 1987
Middlekauff, Robert, "The Glorious Cause," Oxford University Press, 1982
Miller, Hunter, ed., "Treaties and other International Acts of the United
States of America," Vol. 2, Documents 1-40: 1776-1818, United States
Government Printing Office, Washington: 1931
Peterson, Merrill D., "Thomas Jefferson Writings," The Library of America,
1984
Remsburg, John E., "Six Historic Americans," The Truth Seeker Company, New
York
Robinson, John J., "Born in Blood," M. Evans & Company, New York, 1989
Roche, O.I.A., ed, "The Jefferson Bible: with the Annotated Commentaries on
Religion of Thomas Jefferson," Clarkson N. Potter, Inc., 1964
Seldes, George, ed., "The Great Quotations," Pocket Books, New York, 1967
Sweet, William W., "Revivalism in America, its origin, growth and decline,"
C. Scribner's Sons, New York, 1944
Woodress, James, "A Yankee's Odyssey, the Life of Joel Barlow," J. P.
Lippincott Co., 1958
Encyclopedia sources:
Common law: Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 6, "William Benton, Publisher,
1969
Declaration of Independence: MicroSoft Encarta 1996 Encyclopedia, MicroSoft
Corp., Funk & Wagnalls Corporation.
In God We Trust: MicroSoft Encarta 1996 Encyclopedia, MicroSoft Corp., Funk
& Wagnalls Corporation.
Pledge of Allegiance: Academic American Encyclopedia, Vol. 15, Grolier
Incorporated, Danbury, Conn., 1988
Special thanks to Ed Buckner, Robert Boston, Selena Brewington and Lion G.
Miles, for help in providing me with source materials.
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Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our religious
duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
On May 2, 1778, General George Washington issued these orders to his troops
at Valley Forge:
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers,
we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion.
To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to
laud the more distinguished Character of Christian.
The signal instances of Providential goodness which we have experienced and
which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success demand from
us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and piety to the
Supreme Author of all good."
Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower of the
Atheist Faith who tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on Christian
principles", but clearly that befuddled follower of the Atheist Faith simply
doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, and is ignorant concerning
what George Washington and our other founders had to say on the matter.
Mark K. Bilbo
<rpKLd.3676$cl1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Pencil-necked
Demmie Freaks lumbered into the room and mumbled:
> Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower of the
> Atheist Faith who tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on Christian
> principles", but clearly that befuddled follower of the Atheist Faith
> simply doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, and is ignorant
> concerning what George Washington and our other founders had to say on the
> matter.
If anyone is ignorant of what the founders had to say on the matter, it's
you.
You probably don't even know who James Madison *is...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:8cKdnamsp8u...@megapath.net...
> In our last episode
> <rpKLd.3676$cl1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Pencil-necked
> Demmie Freaks lumbered into the room and mumbled:
>
>> Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower of the
>> Atheist Faith who tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on Christian
>> principles", but clearly that befuddled follower of the Atheist Faith
>> simply doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, and is ignorant
>> concerning what George Washington and our other founders had to say on
>> the
>> matter.
>
> If anyone is ignorant of what the founders had to say on the matter, it's
> you.
>
> You probably don't even know who James Madison *is...
General George Washington describes how he felt about disciples of the
Atheist Faith:
"The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this [the course of
the war] that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more
wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it will be
time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment ceases."
(General George Washington writing to his friend Brigadier-General Thomas
Nelson in Virginia, August 20, 1778)
chris_h...@yahoo.com
________________________________________________
Quotes by Thomas Jefferson on religion and state
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of
Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we
have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods
or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
What is it men cannot be made to believe!
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be
one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of
blindfolded fear.
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan
of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by
inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the
plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion
was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to
comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the
Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every
denomination.
I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of
atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the
being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any
party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in
anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an
addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me,
will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe
rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility
against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all
they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between
man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or
his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions
only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act
of the whole American people which declared that their legislature
should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of
separation between church and State.
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always
avail themselves for their own purposes.
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and
doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such
tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other
books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to
entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New
Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded
from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of
very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick
out diamonds from dunghills.
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses
in return for protection to his own.
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is
pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their
virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far
as I know.
As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine
(not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything
rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his
biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct
morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so
much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and
imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions
should have proceeded from the same being.
To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that
the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are
nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason
otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by
Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this
heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know.
But heresy it certainly is.
Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against
absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the
sport of every wind.
I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an
Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If
ever man worshipped a false god, he did.
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed
with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter.
But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these
United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and
restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most
venerated reformer of human errors.
It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse],
and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy
nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly
dreams.
All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general
spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the
palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles
on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride
them legitimately, by the grace of God.
_________________________
and some by James Madison
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for
every noble enterprise.
And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past
one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist
in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual
tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they
have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no
instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.
Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an
established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of
maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary
operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment
of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less,
in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and
servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.
It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that
Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious
establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if
not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of
Virginia conspiciously corroboates the disproof of both opinions. The
Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions
with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the
morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been
manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE
STATE.
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish
Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with
the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all
other sects?
_______________________________________
I think I have some excuse to rant now.
None of the likes of our great founding fathers could be elected today.
And very few that are elected today have an ounce of their quality.
Politics today is nothing but a marketing machine. And the great beast
just eats it up.
bucke...@nospam.net
>:|Our country's founding president understood that our country is founded on
>:|Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our religious
>:|duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
Too bad he wasn't a very religious man and he sure wasn't an orthodox
Christian.
In fact, none of the first half dozen presidents were orthodox Christians.
>:|
>:|On May 2, 1778, General George Washington issued these orders to his troops
>:|at Valley Forge:
>:|
>:|"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers,
>:|we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion.
>:|
>:|To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to
>:|laud the more distinguished Character of Christian.
>:|
>:|The signal instances of Providential goodness which we have experienced and
>:|which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success demand from
>:|us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and piety to the
>:|Supreme Author of all good."
>:|
Do you have a cite for the above quote?
Without one its is rather worthless
>:|
>:|Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower of the
>:|Atheist Faith who tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on Christian
>:|principles", but clearly that befuddled follower of the Atheist Faith simply
>:|doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, and is ignorant concerning
>:|what George Washington and our other founders had to say on the matter.
LOL, the only one who doesn't know what he is talking about is you.
Just to clear up a couple points. Atheist isn't a faith.
While I did not write the original post, it arrived in our email this
morning from a mailing list, I did post it and I am no a atheist.
So much for your comments.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
<chris_h...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1107264626....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
In his inaugural speech to both houses of Congress, April 30, 1789,
President Washington preached the Christian Faith thusly:
"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public
summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to
omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to the Almighty
Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations,
and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His
benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of
the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential
purposes;"
Thus we see that not only did General Washington admonish those under his
command to practice the Christian Faith, but PRESIDENT Washington BEGAN his
tour of office by acknowledging the Christian Faith!
Mark K. Bilbo
<fWKLd.3691$cl1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Pencil-necked
Yah, Washington. The guy who used to walk out of church services early and
when the preacher complained he was setting a bad example, solved the
problem by never going back...
Mark K. Bilbo
Amazing magical thinking on your part. All somebody has to do is wave a
few prayers over something and *poof* it becomes Christian.
No wonder you people are so easily misled by your leadership...
Mark K. Bilbo
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks lumbered into the room and mumbled:
> Thus we see that not only did General Washington admonish those under his
> command to practice the Christian Faith, but PRESIDENT Washington BEGAN
> his tour of office by acknowledging the Christian Faith!
By the way, Washington was a deist. Christianity was not well regarded
among quite a number of our founders...
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
<bucke...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:uh0vv09c8ieol2oha...@4ax.com...
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
>
>>:|Our country's founding president understood that our country is founded
>>on
>>:|Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our
>>religious
>>:|duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
>
>
> Too bad he wasn't a very religious man and he sure wasn't an orthodox
> Christian.
On the contrary, George Washington was a VERY devout Christian, as his
personal diary readily proves. Daily prayer and Bible reading was his
regular practice. He was orthodox in his Christian faith and practice.
> In fact, none of the first half dozen presidents were orthodox Christians.
>
>>:|
>>:|On May 2, 1778, General George Washington issued these orders to his
>>troops
>>:|at Valley Forge:
>>:|
>>:|"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and
>>soldiers,
>>:|we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of
>>religion.
>>:|
>>:|To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest
>>Glory to
>>:|laud the more distinguished Character of Christian.
>>:|
>>:|The signal instances of Providential goodness which we have experienced
>>and
>>:|which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success demand
>>from
>>:|us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and piety to
>>the
>>:|Supreme Author of all good."
>>:|
>
> Do you have a cite for the above quote?
> Without one its is rather worthless.
No, it is "worthless" only if it is false. Which it is not.
But if you're still interested in a cite (which I suspect you really are
not) you can find that quote for yourself in "America's God and Country -
Encylopedia of Quotations", by William J. Federer. The book is still in
print, and available from Amazon and elsewhere. Nice hardcover edition
too.
You can find that particular quote on page 643 of that encylopedia.
>>:|Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower of the
>>:|Atheist Faith who tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on
>>Christian
>>:|principles", but clearly that befuddled follower of the Atheist Faith
>>simply
>>:|doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, and is ignorant
>>concerning
>>:|what George Washington and our other founders had to say on the matter.
>
> LOL, the only one who doesn't know what he is talking about is you.
So you claim, yet I am able to back up all my assertions, while you
apparently are not.
> Just to clear up a couple points. Atheist isn't a faith.
Oh yes it is. It is a faith belief that "God doesn't exist". And since
there is no proof or scientific basis for that particular belief, it is
STRICTLY a faith belief.
> While I did not write the original post, it arrived in our email this
> morning from a mailing list, I did post it and I am no a atheist.
>
> So much for your comments.
And so much for yours, sir.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
On May 12, 1779, General George Washington was visited at his military
encampment by some chiefs of the Delaware Indian tribe. They had brought
three youths to be trained in the American schools. Washington assured
them, commenting:
"Congress will look upon them as their own Children...You do well to wish to
learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus
Christ. These will make you a greater and a happier people than you are.
Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention."
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
Amazingly dumb comment by you.
I present what George Washington actually said and wrote.
You present gibberish responses.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> In our last episode <LRLLd.6374$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
> Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks lumbered into the room and mumbled:
>
>> Thus we see that not only did General Washington admonish those under his
>> command to practice the Christian Faith, but PRESIDENT Washington BEGAN
>> his tour of office by acknowledging the Christian Faith!
>
> By the way, Washington was a deist.
No, he was profoundly *Christian* in his belief in God. Washington was NOT
a Buddhist, nor was he a mere "deist" as you falsely claimed.
Addressing his troops under his command at Valley Forge on May 2, 1778,
General Washington (soon to be our nation's first president) said the
following:
Mark K. Bilbo
Well, yeah, that was one of the ways they intended to destroy the tribes
so they could displace them.
Washington made all kinds of such promises to the tribes. Broke every last
one. He was quite the politician that one...
Mark K. Bilbo
You're babbling political speeches at me. Apparently you haven't figured
out that politicians say all *kinds of things to pander to the public.
When you get down to what the founders *did in crafting our government and
what they said they *meant in doing so, you find a considerable
determination among them to keep religion and government totally
separated. They had examples from bloody European history of why this was
important to protect *both government *and religion.
Those of you trying to tear down the wall are working to destroy your
religion as fast as you can. Notice the areas of the West in which
Christianity is dying out? It's where there are or were established
churches.
Madison pointed out more than once that government and religion both
operate in "greater purity" when they are separated. Hence he believed in,
and worked to achieve, a "perfect separation."
By the way, he actually wrote the original 1st Amendment and oversaw the
crafting of our current one. He's a better source in understanding the
foundation of the actual government than Washington.
Cary Kittrell
In article <idMLd.4929$S3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> writes:
>
>
> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> news:OLidnY59Yb0...@megapath.net...
> >
> > Yah, Washington. The guy who used to walk out of church services early and
> > when the preacher complained he was setting a bad example, solved the
> > problem by never going back...
>
>
> On May 12, 1779, General George Washington was visited at his military
> encampment by some chiefs of the Delaware Indian tribe. They had brought
> three youths to be trained in the American schools. Washington assured
> them, commenting:
>
> "Congress will look upon them as their own Children...You do well to wish to
> learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus
> Christ. These will make you a greater and a happier people than you are.
> Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention."
>
Immediately following on which the good Christian people of this great
country, founded on Christian principles, proceded to deceive, murder,
displace, burn, and otherwise make every faithful effort to anihilate
the aforementioned Children, a crusade on behalf of which Congress
itself spared neither money nor legislative support. As God is my
witness.
-- cary
Cary Kittrell
Well, that convinces me! If George Washington did it, then
who am I not to do it?
Now, where do I buy me some slaves?
-- cary
Gary Bohn
news:LRLLd.6374$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
I take it then that George Washington was much more than just a
president and not only wrote the constitution, but by the sounds of
things, all by himself.
--
apatriot #23, aa #1779, Grand Poobah, EAC Department of Oxygen
Deprivation
Responsible for brain damage everywhere!
Gary Bohn
Science rationally modifies a theory to fit evidence, creationism
emotionally modifies evidence to fit the bible.
Gary Bohn
<Quote>
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
"George Washington
Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason
Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry
tree comes from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a
Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet
Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.
Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of
mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters,
the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his
religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism.
Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4
November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a
freemason until he died.
To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said
that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according
to the dictates of his own conscience."
After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a
Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion
replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist." "
</quote>
MarkA
> Our country's founding president understood that our country is founded on
> Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our
> religious duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
>
Just what are "Christian principles"? Do you mean Humanism? You know,
the basic teachings of Jesus minus the metaphysical bullshit?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
Cary Kittrell
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:15:19 +0000, Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks wrote:
>
> > Our country's founding president understood that our country is founded on
> > Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our
> > religious duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
> >
>
> Just what are "Christian principles"? Do you mean Humanism? You know,
> the basic teachings of Jesus minus the metaphysical bullshit?
Me, I'm still musing over his treasonous implication that the stipulations
of religion should trump the stipulations of the Constitution.
-- cary
MarkA
I'm sorry, but my news server must have dropped the part of your quote
where Washington equates the "Almighty Being" with the Christian God.
Would you please repost it? Thank you.
Jez
> <bucke...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:uh0vv09c8ieol2oha...@4ax.com...
>
>>"Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>:|Our country's founding president understood that our country is founded
>>>on
>>>:|Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our
>>>religious
>>>:|duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
>>
>>
>>Too bad he wasn't a very religious man and he sure wasn't an orthodox
>>Christian.
>
>
>
> On the contrary, George Washington was a VERY devout Christian, as his
> personal diary readily proves. Daily prayer and Bible reading was his
> regular practice. He was orthodox in his Christian faith and practice.
He also grew Marijuana, you gonna worship the weed now too ?
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
NFS Underground2, Americas Army And MOH-PA
bucke...@nospam.net
>:|
>:|On the contrary, George Washington was a VERY devout Christian, as his
>:|regular practice. He was orthodox in his Christian faith and practice.
And you don't know a damn thing about history
* Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
>:|> Do you have a cite for the above quote?
>:|> Without one its is rather worthless.
>:|
>:|
>:|No, it is "worthless" only if it is false. Which it is not.
Actually, uncited quotes are worthless.
Study Guide to Quotes:
Quotes in General
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7a.htm
>:|
>:|But if you're still interested in a cite (which I suspect you really are
>:|not) you can find that quote for yourself in "America's God and Country -
>:|Encylopedia of Quotations", by William J. Federer. The book is still in
>:|print, and available from Amazon and elsewhere. Nice hardcover edition
>:|too.
>:|
>:|You can find that particular quote on page 643 of that encylopedia.
LOL Federer!!!!!!!
What a fraud
jali...@cox.net May 25 2004, 12:06 pm show options
Newsgroups: alt.education, alt.politics.democrats.d,
alt.politics.liberalism, alt.politics.usa.constitution,
alt.politics.usa.republican, alt.society.conservatism,
alt.society.liberalism
From: jali...@cox.net - Find messages by this author
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:06:49 -0400
Local: Tues, May 25 2004 12:06 pm
Subject: Re: God in all 50 State Constitutions
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse
"Server 13" <c-b...@itg.uiuc.edu> wrote:
[another had written]
>:|> Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
>:|> gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...
>:| 1818? Probably all dead.
Madison was the last of the founders to die and he died in 1836
You can toss this out to whoever posted the original here:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Another had written]
>:|> http://www.towardtradition.org/article_God_In_All_50_States.htm
>:|> Separation of God and State?
>:|> By William J. Federer
========================================
WILLIAM J. FEDERER
William J. Federer isn't any better than Barton. Check out the following:
Did John Quincy Adams ever say that the American Revolution "connected in
one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the
principles of Christianity?"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq5.htm
******************************************
[From classicliberal2]
This is a notorious phony quotation, derived from a mangled version of John
Wingate Thornton's characterization of JQ Adams' views. In his book "The
Pulpit of theAmerican Revolution," Thornton wrote that "The highest glory
of the American Revolution, said John Quincy Adams, was this: it connected,
in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the
principle of Christianity." This was Thornton's characterization, and he
never claimed it was a quote. There the matter sat, until William
Federer came along and assembled "America's God and Country." Federer
edited the quote to make it appear as a direct quotation, and that's where
it came from, in its present form. JQ Adams, btw, was not, in any sense, a
"founding father."
******************************************
ANOTHER FEDERER ERROR:
From: buckeye-...@nospam.net
Newsgroups:
alt.education,misc.education,alt.atheism,alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.liberalism
Subject: THE FRANKLIN PRAYER MYTH
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:35:24 -0400
PART V
WILLIAM J. FEDERER
1996
Jonathan Dayton (1760-1824), one of the signers of the Constitution of the
United States, was a delegate from New Jersey, a U.S. Senator and the
Speaker of the House. The city of Dayton, Ohio, was named after him. On
June 28, 1787, at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, Jonathan
Dayton wrote down the effects on Congress of Dr. Benjamin Jonathan
Franklin's monumental speech calling for Congress to be opened with prayer
every day:
The Doctor sat down; and never did I behold a countenance at once so
dignified and delighted as was that of Washington at the close of the
address; nor were the members of the convention generally less affected.
The words of the venerable Franklin fell upon our ears with a weight and
authority, even greater that we may suppose an oracle to have had in a
Roman senate! 15
15. Jonathan Dayton. June 28, 1787, in the Constitutional Convention. E.C.
M'Guire, The Religious Opinions and Character of Washington (NY: Harper &
Brothers, 1836), p. 151. David Barton, The Myth of Separation (Aledo, TX:
WallBuilder Press, 1991J, p.109.
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: America's God and Country Encyclopedia of
Quotations, By: William J. Federer, Fame Publishing, Inc. Coppell, Texas,
(1996) p.199
===============================================
The above is false.
check out the following for more Federer errors
* Jonathan Dayton and the Ben Franklin Prayer/Chaplain myth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/franklin.htm
bucke...@nospam.net
>:|
>:|"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
Complete cite please, the above is not a complete cite, in fact the really
essential item is left out, i.e. where to find it. Isn't that
interesting. Is this another Federer effort?
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"MarkA" <mant...@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.02.01....@stopspam.net...
Sure, glad to.
Addressing his troops under his command at Valley Forge on May 2, 1778,
General Washington (soon to be our nation's first president) said the
following:
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers,
jls
"Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
news:4YPLd.6537$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
What's the source of this quote, David Barton? He likes to insert bogus
quotes and call them genuine. LOL!
Cary Kittrell
> Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks wrote:
> > <bucke...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> > news:uh0vv09c8ieol2oha...@4ax.com...
> >
> >>"Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>:|Our country's founding president understood that our country is founded
> >>>on
> >>>:|Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our
> >>>religious
> >>>:|duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
> >>
> >>
> >>Too bad he wasn't a very religious man and he sure wasn't an orthodox
> >>Christian.
> >
> >
> >
> > On the contrary, George Washington was a VERY devout Christian, as his
> > personal diary readily proves. Daily prayer and Bible reading was his
> > regular practice. He was orthodox in his Christian faith and practice.
>
> He also grew Marijuana, you gonna worship the weed now too ?
Only if he's given the slaves to help harvest it, too.
(man, didya ever see what that smoke does to wooden teeth?)
-- cary
Tukla Ratte
< snip >
> "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers,
> we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion.
> To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to
> laud the more distinguished Character of Christian."
Unfortunately, modern fundies are more interested in plumbing the depths
of Christian hate than they are in "the higher duties of religion", so I
don't see how this is even relevant.
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
Tukla Ratte
< snip >
> In his inaugural speech to both houses of Congress, April 30, 1789,
> President Washington preached the Christian Faith thusly:
>
> "Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public
> summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to
> omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to the Almighty
> Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations,
> and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His
> benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of
> the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential
> purposes;"
>
> Thus we see that not only did General Washington admonish those under his
> command to practice the Christian Faith,
He didn't mention Christianity or Jesus.
> but PRESIDENT Washington BEGAN his
> tour of office by acknowledging the Christian Faith!
Where?
Cary Kittrell
In article <LRLLd.6374$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> writes:
>
>
> <chris_h...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1107264626....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
{...}
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > Quotes by Thomas Jefferson on religion and state
>
>
> In his inaugural speech to both houses of Congress, April 30, 1789,
> President Washington preached the Christian Faith thusly:
>
> "Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public
> summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to
> omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to the Almighty
> Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations,
> and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His
> benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of
> the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential
> purposes;"
>
> Thus we see that not only did General Washington admonish those under his
> command to practice the Christian Faith, but PRESIDENT Washington BEGAN his
> tour of office by acknowledging the Christian Faith!
Heh. "Thus we see" that an unremarkable reference to the deists'
vague and unknown "Almighty Being who rules over the universe"
REALLY meant Jesus' Daddy?
Thus we actually do not see.
-- cary
D T
news:4YPLd.6537$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> Addressing his troops under his command at Valley Forge on May 2, 1778,
> General Washington (soon to be our nation's first president) said the
> following:
>
> "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and
> soldiers,
> we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion.
> To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory
> to
> laud the more distinguished Character of Christian."
"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and
reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this
enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a
man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor
deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that
are known in the United States."
-- George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore,
January 27, 1793, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United
States, Vol 1. p. 497, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The
Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
-----------------------------------------------
"If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may
be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists."
-- George Washington, letter to Tench Tilghman asking him to secure a
carpenter and a bricklayer for his Mount Vernon estate, March 24, 1784, in
Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion (1963) p. 118, quoted from Ed
and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and
Church"
--------------------------------------------------
"Among many other weighty objections to the Measure, it has been suggested,
that it has a tendency to introduce religious disputes into the Army, which
above all things should be avoided, and in many instances would compel men
to a mode of Worship which they do not profess."
-- George Washington, to John Hancock, then president of Congress,
expressing opposition to a congressional plan to appoint brigade chaplains
in the Continental Army (1777), quoted from a letter to Cliff Walker from
Doug Harper (2002) 唵
---------------------------------------------------
"Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed
General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in
their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the
public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought
they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose
publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old
fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address
particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice."
-- Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Jefferson's Works, Vol. iv., p. 572. (Asa
Green "was probably the Reverend Ashbel Green, who was chaplain to congress
during Washington's administration." -- Farrell Till in "The Christian
Nation Myth.")
---------------------------------------------------
Abercrombie: Washington a Deist
"Sir, Washington was a Deist."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, rector of the church Washington
had attended with his wife, to The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal
minister in Albany, New York, upon Wilson's having inquired of Abercrombie
regarding Washington's religious beliefs, quoted from John E. Remsberg, Six
Historic Americans
---------------------------------------------------
Savage: Prayer Paintings Silly Caricatures
"The pictures that represent him on his knees in the winter forest at Valley
Forge are even silly caricatures. Washington was at least not sentimental,
and he had nothing about him of the Pharisee that displays his religion at
street corners or out in the woods in the sight of observers, or where his
portrait could be taken by 'our special artist'!"
-- The Reverend M. J. Savage, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious
Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 22
---------------------------------------------------
Blanchard: No Mealtime Prayer
"There was a clergyman at this dinner who blessed the food and said grace
after they had done eating and had brought in the wine. I was told that
General Washington said grace when there was no clergyman at the table, as
fathers of a family do in America. The first time that I dined with him
there was no clergyman and I did not perceive that he made this prayer, yet
I remember that on taking his place at the table, he made a gesture and said
a word, which I took for a piece of politeness, and which was perhaps a
religious action. In this case his prayer must have been short; the
clergyman made use of more forms. We remained a very long time at the table.
They drank 12 or 15 healths with Madeira wine. In the course of the meal
beer was served and grum, rum mixed with water."
-- Commissary-General Claude Blanchard, writing in his journal, quoted from
Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 23
---------------------------------------------------
Abercrombie: Never Received Communion
"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts:
that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental
Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services,
went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs.
Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I
considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy
tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who
uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark
was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days
after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he
told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course
of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had
received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church
before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for
his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the
influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the
repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant,
were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display
of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station.
Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday,
though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833,
Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from
Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26
---------------------------------------------------
Wilson: Wouldn't Trouble Clergyman
"When Congress sat in Philadelphia, President Washington attended the
Episcopal Church. The rector, Dr. Abercrombie, told me that on the days when
the sacrament of the Lord's Supper was to be administered, Washington's
custom was to arise just before the ceremony commenced, and walk out of the
church. This became a subject of remark in the congregation, as setting a
bad example. At length the Doctor undertook to speak of it, with a direct
allusion to the President. Washington was heard afterwards to remark that
this was the first time a clergyman had thus preached to him, and he should
henceforth neither trouble the Doctor or his congregation on such occasions,
and ever after that, upon communion days, 'he absented himself altogether
from church.'"
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York,
biographer of Bishop White, in his sermon on the "Religion of the
Presidents," published in the Albany Daily Advertiser, in 1831, quoted from
Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 26
---------------------------------------------------
Wilson: Deist, and Nothing More
"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the
public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a
believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have
done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in
an interview with Mr. Robert Dale Owen written on November 13, 1831, which
was publlshed in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The
Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27
MarkA
WOW!! Now my news server is REALLY screwing up! Your original post was
from Washington's inaugural speech, and the re-posting switched it to an
address to his troops at Valley Forge! And he STILL doesn't say anything
that would indicate that he believes in the Christian God. It's almost as
if you are blowing smoke out of your ass!
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
" jls" <jls...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:i_PLd.15432$gS5....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Nope. It's from William J. Federer's "America's God and Country -
Encyclopedia of Quotations". Amazon carries it. Hardcover.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"D T" <kissmyass&Imigh...@fhue.org> wrote in message
news:10vvkim...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
> news:4YPLd.6537$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>
>> Addressing his troops under his command at Valley Forge on May 2, 1778,
>> General Washington (soon to be our nation's first president) said the
>> following:
>>
>> "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and
>> soldiers,
>> we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of
>> religion.
>> To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory
>> to
>> laud the more distinguished Character of Christian."
>
>
> "We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth
> and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In
> this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast,
> that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws,
> nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices
> that are known in the United States."
>
> -- George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in
> Baltimore, January 27, 1793, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in
> the United States, Vol 1. p. 497, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd
> Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
Or another:
"The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or
existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity,
and Humanity."
(John Adams diary, July 26, 1796)
D T
"Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
This quote is unattributed, and only appears on Fundy websites. Without
attribution, the quote is most assuredly made up and is worthless.
If you expect to be taken seriously, please find a reference for the
original source material.
D T
Which has nothing to do with George Washington's beliefs, now does it,
idiot?
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
AMAZINGLY, both quotes are FROM THE SAME MAN, GEORGE WASHINGTON! Will
news server wonders ever cease, eh pal?
Gee, go figure......
> And he STILL doesn't say anything
> that would indicate that he believes in the Christian God.
You wish!
From General George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24
pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting, we see the
depth of his Christian faith:
"SUNDAY MORNING....Almighty God, and most merciful Father, who didst command
the children of Israel to....[lengthy personal prayer continues]...pardon I
beseech Thee, my sins, remove them from Thy presence, as far as the east is
from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ, that
when I come into Thy temple and compass Thine altar, ...[lengthy personal
prayer continues]....Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our
God and guide this day and forever for His sake, who lay down in the grave
and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."
(p. 657, America's God and Country - Encyclopedia of Quotations)
> It's almost as
> if you are blowing smoke out of your ass!
>
> --
> MarkA
Whereas clearly YOU are!
Poor baby! Your ignorance is astounding. You're probably the product of
our government run high schools, yes?
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
Gee asshole, it's like you have no idea what the Subject is of the thread
you're posting in!
You poor dumb asshole.....
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
You ignorant asshole, it's found PLENTY of other places besides "Fundy
websites". Like in "America's God and Country, Encyclopedia of
Quotations", hardcover, available from Amazon, for example. You ignorant
asshole.
If you expect to be taken seriously, please stop making yourself look like
an ignorant asshole. Also, if you expect to not be called names, then
you'd better learn to not initiate namecalling, like you did to me in your
earlier post, you asshole.
BTW, asshole - since you indicated you are especially interested in the
"unattributed" quote provided you above, one of the primary sources for that
one is none other than "The Writings of George Washington from the Original
Manuscript Sources: 1749-1799" (Washington, DC: Bureau of National
Literature and Art, 1907). HINT ASSHOLE: that's not a "Fundy website".
It's called "a book", something you're probably not very familiar with
Or, you could have looked at the footnote in "America's God and Country -
Enclopedia of Quotations" and discovered that primary source for yourself,
you pathetic dumb asshole.
Al Klein
<Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>> Just to clear up a couple points. Atheist isn't a faith.
>Oh yes it is. It is a faith belief that "God doesn't exist".
Some atheists believe that, some don't; so it's as much a part of
atheism as is preferring Fords to Chevies. Some atheists DO prefer
Fords, you know, but that doesn't make a preference for Fords part of
atheism.
--
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Al Klein" <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:sstvv0t5u6r6girll...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:06:24 GMT, "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks"
> <Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>
>>> Just to clear up a couple points. Atheist isn't a faith.
>
>>Oh yes it is. It is a faith belief that "God doesn't exist".
>
> Some atheists believe that, some don't; so it's as much a part of
> atheism as is preferring Fords to Chevies. Some atheists DO prefer
> Fords, you know, but that doesn't make a preference for Fords part of
> atheism.
So what do imagine your other "Atheists" believe, since you seem to imagine
they don't believe "God doesn't exist"?
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
<bucke...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:imivv01jqpa6l98fh...@4ax.com...
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
>>:|
>>:|
>>:|On the contrary, George Washington was a VERY devout Christian, as his
>>:|personal diary readily proves. Daily prayer and Bible reading was his
>>:|regular practice. He was orthodox in his Christian faith and
>>practice.
>
>
> And you don't know a damn thing about history
Fortunately I know far more than you do, however.
Curly Surmudgeon
The bile is unnecessary and detracts from your core issue. Simple
disagreemnt doesn't deseerve such hatred. This is what people have come
to expect from Christians, do you wish to reinforce that generality?
-- Regards, Curly
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.curlysurmudgeon.com http://www.curlysurmudgeon.com/blog/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
D T
"Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
This particular part of the thread deals with only George Washington.
Changing the focus from Washington to John Adams without addressing the
poster's content is just obtuseness.
You haven't done any real addressing of the subject. You've just tossed
around unattributed quotes and questionable source material.
You are the poor, dumb asshole.
D T
Hahahahahahaha! Like that's not a biased source! What a fucking idiot you
are.
>
> If you expect to be taken seriously, please stop making yourself look like
> an ignorant asshole. Also, if you expect to not be called names, then
> you'd better learn to not initiate namecalling, like you did to me in your
> earlier post, you asshole.
That's a good one. As if you aren't calling everyone names, right from your
signature to every content free post you make.
>
> BTW, asshole - since you indicated you are especially interested in the
> "unattributed" quote provided you above, one of the primary sources for
> that one is none other than "The Writings of George Washington from the
> Original Manuscript Sources: 1749-1799" (Washington, DC: Bureau of
> National Literature and Art, 1907). HINT ASSHOLE: that's not a "Fundy
> website". It's called "a book", something you're probably not very
> familiar with
Fine, I'll double check it and admit I was wrong about the source. If you
are going to whine about me swapping insults with you, then you had better
make an example of your supposed superiority and do exactly the same, admit
when you are wrong. But you are incapable of doing so, and I won't be
waiting for it.
>
> Or, you could have looked at the footnote in "America's God and Country -
> Enclopedia of Quotations" and discovered that primary source for yourself,
> you pathetic dumb asshole.
Sorry, when a Book is titled with an already biased assumption, it cannot be
taken seriously.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
No, this particular thread deals with the Christian character of the US, and
Christian quotes by the Founding Fathers, who themselves were Christians.
Like George Washington and John Adams, for example.
Cary Kittrell
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
> news:HzSLd.6639$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "D T" <kissmyass&Imigh...@fhue.org> wrote in message
> > news:10vvspv...@corp.supernews.com...
> >> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
> >> news:jnSLd.6634$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
{...}
> >>>
> >>> Or another:
> >>>
> >>> "The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed
> >>> or
> >>> existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue,
> >>> Equity,
> >>> and Humanity."
> >>>
> >>> (John Adams diary, July 26, 1796)
> >>
> >> Which has nothing to do with George Washington's beliefs, now does it,
> >> idiot?
> >
> >
> > Gee asshole, it's like you have no idea what the Subject is of the thread
> > you're posting in!
> >
> > You poor dumb asshole.....
>
> This particular part of the thread deals with only George Washington.
> Changing the focus from Washington to John Adams without addressing the
> poster's content is just obtuseness.
>
> You haven't done any real addressing of the subject. You've just tossed
> around unattributed quotes and questionable source material.
>
> You are the poor, dumb asshole.
>
>
Oh, hey, why not, that's what I say. If Pencil-neck thinks that
bring in a single FFather (or two) can prove that America was
a Christian nation, then I'm all for it -- since that provides
support for the contention that quotes from, say, Jefferson,
Madison, and Paine may be used to show that this was in no
way the case.
-- cary
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Curly Surmudgeon" <cu...@curlysurmudgeon.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.02.01....@curlysurmudgeon.com...
Up yours, pal. You remained silent when he namecalled me in his earlier
post, so you can just shut the hell up now too.
Simple
> disagreemnt doesn't deseerve such hatred.
Then why did he call me names in his earlier post? And why did you remain
silent when he did that?
Sorry asshole, but you just shot YOUR credibility.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
ALL sources are biased, so what's your point?
For example, that particular encyclopedia is "biased" in terms of listing
only quotations having to do with America. It turns a cold shoulder, as it
were, to Sweden. Such shocking bias probably gives you an attack of the
vapors, yes?
Cary Kittrell
In article <9oTLd.3594$Nn1...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> writes:
>
>
> "D T" <kissmyass&Imigh...@fhue.org> wrote in message
> news:1100036...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> >
> > This particular part of the thread deals with only George Washington.
>
>
> No, this particular thread deals with the Christian character of the US, and
> Christian quotes by the Founding Fathers, who themselves were Christians.
> Like George Washington and John Adams, for example.
>
>
Were you thinking of this John Adams?:
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the
natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or
mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of
that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of
the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of
the United States of America" (1787-88)
or perhaps this John Adams (writing to ol' Teej)?:
Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient
Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions,
above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813,
hey, maybe it was THIS John Adams:
God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy
is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth
of the Incarnation of Christ.
Disbelief
or perhaps this John Adams:
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of
the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the
Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
-- cary
Bob LeChevalier
>> And he STILL doesn't say anything
>> that would indicate that he believes in the Christian God.
>
>You wish!
>
>From General George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24
>pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting, we see the
>depth of his Christian faith:
The alleged prayer book is a known fraud nor written by Washington and
not in his handwriting. It wasn't even published until 1891. Any
book written after 1936 that uses it is a book not to be trusted.
http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2004/12/george_washingt.html
lojbab
--
lojbab loj...@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
D T
No, this particular section of the thread, one of several, dealt only with
Washington, as you can see from the included content above.
You have yourself deleted text from parts of this thread and caused
fragmentation of the subject. Since you are responding to several of those
fregments, you should be able to comprehend that not all of the people you
are responding to are responding to the original thread, and this is to a
great extent your fault.
I posted quotes by Washington, and comments made by his contemporaries
(which you snipped) that indicated HE was not particularly religious, and
probably Diest. Since you failed to comment on those quotes and instead
posted an erroneous comment by John Adams, it's obvious that you aren't able
to follow along, or just refuse to respond to material that irrefutabley
contradicts you.
Now, if you actually think you own the intellectual high ground, please to
respond to what I originally posted, included below.
And note the third quote by Washington, which calls into question the
accuracey of your original quote.
If you refuse to deal with them and what they are saying, you have proved me
once again correct about your character.
"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and
reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this
enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a
man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor
deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that
are known in the United States."
-- George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore,
January 27, 1793, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United
States, Vol 1. p. 497, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The
Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
-----------------------------------------------
Cary Kittrell
>
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
> >> And he STILL doesn't say anything
> >> that would indicate that he believes in the Christian God.
> >
> >You wish!
> >
> >From General George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24
> >pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting, we see the
> >depth of his Christian faith:
>
> The alleged prayer book is a known fraud nor written by Washington and
> not in his handwriting. It wasn't even published until 1891. Any
> book written after 1936 that uses it is a book not to be trusted.
>
> http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2004/12/george_washingt.html
Goodness, goodness, goodness... Thus the importance of citations
and primary sources, eh?
-- cary
D T
"Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
It is biased because it contains only quotes containing the words god,
bible, jesus, and such. It's what is called cherry picking, and it's used to
back up only a biased view of this country. And as for the quote you were
trying to shore up, there is absolutely no original source referenced, and
your encyclopedia of quotes was written in 1996. Hardly trustworthy.
So if you still believe this quote is factual, please find some
documentation of where your encyclopedia found the original source.
David Barton doesn't count.
Enkidu
> You ignorant asshole, it's found PLENTY of other places besides "Fundy
> websites". Like in "America's God and Country, Encyclopedia of
> Quotations", hardcover, available from Amazon, for example. You
> ignorant asshole.
And where, in Washington's writings, is this to be found? Who If he didn't
write it, who documented it? What is the original source of the quote?
--
Enkidu AA# 2165
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Attributed to Epicurus 341-270 B.C.E.
Enkidu
>> The bile is unnecessary and detracts from your core issue.
>
>
> Up yours, pal. You remained silent when he namecalled me in his
> earlier post, so you can just shut the hell up now too.
He doesn't have the example of your Jesus to follow, does he? In your
shoes, WWJD? Is it what you're doing, or are you just a bad example of
how Christians are supposed to behave?
>> Simple
>> disagreemnt doesn't deseerve such hatred.
>
> Then why did he call me names in his earlier post? And why did you
> remain silent when he did that?
>
> Sorry asshole, but you just shot YOUR credibility.
Not with anyone who matters.
Enkidu
>>> Addressing his troops under his command at Valley Forge on May 2,
>>> 1778, General Washington (soon to be our nation's first president)
>>> said the following:
>>>
>>> "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and
>> soldiers,
>>> we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of
>>> religion.
>>> To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest
>>> Glory
>> to
>>> laud the more distinguished Character of Christian."
>>
>> What's the source of this quote, David Barton?
>
>
> Nope. It's from William J. Federer's "America's God and Country -
> Encyclopedia of Quotations". Amazon carries it. Hardcover.
William J. Federer heard it first hand?
Enkidu
>>> You ignorant asshole, it's found PLENTY of other places besides
>>> "Fundy websites". Like in "America's God and Country, Encyclopedia
>>> of Quotations", hardcover, available from Amazon, for example. You
>>> ignorant asshole.
>>
>> Hahahahahahaha! Like that's not a biased source!
>
>
> ALL sources are biased, so what's your point?
>
> For example, that particular encyclopedia is "biased" in terms of
> listing only quotations having to do with America. It turns a cold
> shoulder, as it were, to Sweden. Such shocking bias probably gives
> you an attack of the vapors, yes?
All may be biased, but some are flat out fabrications.
Enkidu
I remain unconvinced by your arguments that your God exists. While he
might, you have not supported you case well enough, just as my
grandmother never made a strong enough case for the Easter Bunny to
compel my belief in that myth.
Enkidu
news:j9TLd.3586$Nn1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
About what? How to remove shit stains from diapers? You don't know
anything about U. S. History or atheism.
Al Klein
<Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>Our country's founding president
The country wasn't founded by a president, and Washington wasn't one
of the founding fathers.
>Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower of the
>Atheist
'Atheist' is only capitalized at the beginning of a sentence.
>tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on Christian
>principles"
Since you like to post quotes:
The Barbary Treaties :
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796.
(Washington was in office.)
Article 11
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion ..."
President Adams signed it on June 10, 1797 and it was first published
in the Session Laws of the Fifth Congress, first session in 1797.
Quite clearly, then, at this very early stage of the American
Republic, the U.S. government did not consider the United States a
Christian nation.
>is ignorant concerning
>what George Washington and our other founders had to say on the matter.
Thomas Paine:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the
Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the
Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my
own church. (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of
Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine. New York: Everbody's
Vacation Publishing Co., 1945, p. 362)
Regarding the New Testament, he wrote that:
I hold [it] to be fabulous and have shown [it] to be false...(Roberts,
p. 375)
John Adams, the second U.S. President rejected the Trinity, the deity
of Christ, and became a Unitarian.
About March 1, 1790, Benjamin Franklin wrote the following in a letter
to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on
religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a
Christian, to the end:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I
think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us,
the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it
has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the
present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it
is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I
think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an
Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van
Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)
(Gordon S. Wood, in his 1992 book, "The Radicalism of the American
Revolution," states that, by the 1790's only about 10% of the American
population regularly attended religious services - to quote just one
statistic. Not exactly an indication of a wholehearted national
commitment to Christianity!)
Washington wrote Lafayette in 1787, "Being no bigot myself, I am
disposed to indulge the professors of Christianity in the church that
road to heaven which to them shall seem the most direct, plainest,
easiest and least liable to exception."
Some of these quotes are from
http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
--
"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent design."
-Josef Balluch
Bob LeChevalier
>"D T" <kissmyass&Imigh...@fhue.org> wrote in message
>news:10vvsm0...@corp.supernews.com...
>>> encampment by some chiefs of the Delaware Indian tribe. They had brought
>>> three youths to be trained in the American schools. Washington assured
>>> them, commenting:
>>>
>>> "Congress will look upon them as their own Children...You do well to wish
>>> to
>>> learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus
>>> Christ. These will make you a greater and a happier people than you are.
>>> Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise
>>> intention."
>>
>> This quote is unattributed, and only appears on Fundy websites. Without
>> attribution, the quote is most assuredly made up and is worthless.
>>
>> If you expect to be taken seriously, please find a reference for the
>> original source material.
The writings of George Washington from the original manuscript sources
Washington, George, 1732-1799
Fitzpatrick, John Clement, 1876-1940
Writings of Washington, Vol. 15: SPEECH TO THE DELAWARE CHIEFS
p54-56
You can find a link to this document at
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/WasFi15.html
about a screen down the list (the link itself is too long for one
line) look for "Delaware"
Note that learning of "the religion of Jesus Christ" is not the same
as believing in it. It is wise for anyone in this country to learn
about the Christian religion, whether they wish to believe or not.
>You ignorant asshole, it's found PLENTY of other places besides "Fundy
>websites".
The "prayer book" is also thoroughly discredited in PLENTY of places
besides "Fundy websites", having been determined to be fraudulent not
all that long after it was published. (the guy who published even
admitted that he wasn't sure that it was really Washington's, but he
was actively promoting the sale of such things for to raise money for
"a good cause" and thus apparently had few scruples on how he raised
money).
The vast bulk of stuff purportedly written by Washington wasn't
really. For a century, producing for sale things that "Washington
said" or "Washington made" was a major cottage industry, which used to
be made fun of by joke about all the plaques saying "George Washington
slept here".
>Like in "America's God and Country, Encyclopedia of
>Quotations", hardcover, available from Amazon, for example. You ignorant
>asshole.
Do you believe everything you read in books, just because they are
published? Amazon carries a lot of crap. Federer's book is poorly
researched crap. He makes use of quotes that Barton has admitted are
fraudulent.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq5.htm
Fame Publishing, Inc., seems only to have published Federer's book and
another fundie screed several years later. Federer's book therefore
has no more credibility than a "fundie web page".
Federer has no more qualifications than Joe Blow to write a historical
book of quotations, He's merely a real estate accountant and fundie
who found a way to make a name for himself and start a career as a
lecturer and politician:
http://federer04.com/about.html
>BTW, asshole - since you indicated you are especially interested in the
>"unattributed" quote provided you above, one of the primary sources for that
>one is none other than "The Writings of George Washington from the Original
>Manuscript Sources: 1749-1799" (Washington, DC: Bureau of National
>Literature and Art, 1907). HINT ASSHOLE: that's not a "Fundy website".
>It's called "a book", something you're probably not very familiar with
I note in passing that the "Bureau of National Literature and Art" had
no connection with the government despite its official-sounding name.
It was an incorporated publisher with offices in DC and NY and
possibly other places.
>Or, you could have looked at the footnote in "America's God and Country -
>Enclopedia of Quotations" and discovered that primary source for yourself,
>you pathetic dumb asshole.
Since he does not own the book, how could he do so? And why would he
wish to support a fundie author and publisher and Republican
politician by publishing a known to be poorly research book of quotes?
D T
"Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
news:jnSLd.6634$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...> news:10vvkim...@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in message
>> news:4YPLd.6537$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>
>>> Addressing his troops under his command at Valley Forge on May 2, 1778,
>>> General Washington (soon to be our nation's first president) said the
>>> following:
>>>
>>> "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and
>>> soldiers,
>>> we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of
>>> religion.
>>> To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest
>>> Glory to
>>> laud the more distinguished Character of Christian."
>>
>>
>> and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ...
>> In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our
>> boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of
>> the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the
>> highest Offices that are known in the United States."
>>
>> -- George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in
>> Baltimore, January 27, 1793, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in
>> the United States, Vol 1. p. 497, quoted from Albert J. Menendez and Edd
>> Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
>
>
> Or another:
>
> "The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or
> existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue,
> Equity,
> and Humanity."
>
> (John Adams diary, July 26, 1796)
I find this quote questionable, considering Adams was a Unitarian.
http://www.geocities.com/peterroberts.geo/Relig-Politics/JohnAdams.html
These later quotes also at least suggest your quote was taken out of
context. Note that all include the original source.
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall
govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it
by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of
governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now
sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture,
hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in
their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American
governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in
America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be
pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the
gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those
at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it
will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by
the use of reason and the senses.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United
States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American
Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society
(1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support
the Separation of State and Church"
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural
authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and
which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of
the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United
States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American
Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society
(1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support
the Separation of State and Church"
We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions
... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and
power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human
character and the state of society.
-- John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785, quoted from Albert
Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom (1991)
As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But
how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been
blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the
most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816
The frightful engines of ecclesiastical councils, of diabolical malice, and
Calvinistical good-nature never failed to terrify me exceedingly whenever I
thought of preaching.
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, October 18,
1756, explaining why he rejected the ministry
I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being
molested myself.
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, August 29,
1756, explaining how his independent opinions would create much difficulty
in the ministry, in Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the
New Nation (1987) p. 88, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations
that Support the Separation of State and Church"
When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary
induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can
supersede it.
-- John Adams, from Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from from
James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient
Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all
the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after
miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813, quoted from
James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has
prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster
must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for
centuries before he expires.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814, from James A.
Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
I do not like the reappearance of the Jesuits.... Shall we not have regular
swarms of them here, in as many disguises as only a king of the gipsies can
assume, dressed as printers, publishers, writers and schoolmasters? If ever
there was a body of men who merited damnation on earth and in Hell, it is
this society of Loyola's. Nevertheless, we are compelled by our system of
religious toleration to offer them an asylum.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 5, 1816
Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition
and dogmatism cannot confine it.
-- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from
James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821, from James A.
Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the
abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great
Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning....
And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or
dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest
billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality
is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a
solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the
clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the
hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and
eyes.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in Norman Cousins, In God
We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers
(1958), p. 108, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved
out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful
opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or
wicked priests.
-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography
What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian
era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope
Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in
France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the
Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and
the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse,
than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you
considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and
triumphed for 1,500 years.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins in In
God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding
Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from James A. Haught,
ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got
rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the
Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardiff, What Great Men Think of
Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Numberless have been the systems of iniquity The most refined, sublime,
extensive, and astonishing constitution of policy that ever was conceived by
the mind of man was framed by the Romish clergy for the aggrandizement of
their own Order They even persuaded mankind to believe, faithfully and
undoubtingly, that God Almighty had entrusted them with the keys of heaven,
whose gates they might open and close at pleasure ... with authority to
license all sorts of sins and Crimes ... or withholding the rain of heaven
and the beams of the sun; with the management of earthquakes, pestilence,
and famine; nay, with the mysterious, awful, incomprehensible power of
creating out of bread and wine the flesh and blood of God himself. All these
opinions they were enabled to spread and rivet among the people by reducing
their minds to a state of sordid ignorance and staring timidity, and by
infusing into them a religious horror of letters and knowledge. Thus was
human nature chained fast for ages in a cruel, shameful, and deplorable
servitude....
Of all the nonsense and delusion which had ever passed through the mind
of man, none had ever been more extravagant than the notions of absolutions,
indelible characters, uninterrupted successions, and the rest of those
fantastical ideas, derived from the canon law, which had thrown such a glare
of mystery, sanctity, reverence, and right reverend eminence and holiness
around the idea of a priest as no mortal could deserve ... the ridiculous
fancies of sanctified effluvia from episcopal fingers.
-- John Adams, "A Dissertation on the Canon and the Feudal Law," printed in
the Boston Gazette, August 1765
We think ourselves possessed, or, at least, we boast that we are so, of
liberty of conscience on all subjects, and of the right of free inquiry and
private judgment in all cases, and yet how far are we from these exalted
privileges in fact! There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian
world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine
inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to
Revelations. In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the
stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In England itself it is punished by boring
through the tongue with a red-hot poker. In America it is not better; even
in our own Massachusetts, which I believe, upon the whole, is as temperate
and moderate in religious zeal as most of the States, a law was made in the
latter end of the last century, repealing the cruel punishments of the
former laws, but substituting fine and imprisonment upon all those
blasphemers upon any book of the Old Testament or New. Now, what free
inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or
imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating into the divine
authority of those books? Who would run the risk of translating Dupuis? But
I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though I have it much at heart. I think
such laws a great embarrassment, great obstructions to the improvement of
the human mind. Books that cannot bear examination, certainly ought not to
be established as divine inspiration by penal laws. It is true, few persons
appear desirous to put such laws in execution, and it is also true that some
few persons are hardy enough to venture to depart from them. But as long as
they continue in force as laws, the human mind must make an awkward and
clumsy progress in its investigations. I wish they were repealed. The
substance and essence of Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and
unchangeable, and will bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with
extraneous ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they
ought to be separated. Adieu.
-- John Adams, one of his last letters to Thomas Jefferson, January 23,
1825. Adams was 90, Jefferson 81 at the time; both died on July 4th of the
following year, on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of
Independence. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The
Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 234. Quoted
from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of
State and Church."
Cary Kittrell
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
> ><bucke...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> >news:imivv01jqpa6l98fh...@4ax.com...
> >> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
> >>>:|On the contrary, George Washington was a VERY devout Christian, as his
> >>>:|personal diary readily proves. Daily prayer and Bible reading was his
> >>>:|regular practice. He was orthodox in his Christian faith and
> >>>practice.
> >>
> >> And you don't know a damn thing about history
> >
> >Fortunately I know far more than you do, however.
>
> about history, given that his historical reference website is used by
> large numbers of lawyers and researchers. What are your credentials?
Volume.
-- cary
Cary Kittrell
Well, jeez... I mean, that was sort of like watching Godzilla
run over Hello Kitty.
Bob, I dunno...you could at least have told him his hair looks
nice, something like that.
-- cary
Al Klein
<Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>"Al Klein" <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message
>news:sstvv0t5u6r6girll...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:06:24 GMT, "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks"
>> <Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>>>> Just to clear up a couple points. Atheist isn't a faith.
>>>Oh yes it is. It is a faith belief that "God doesn't exist".
>> Some atheists believe that, some don't; so it's as much a part of
>> atheism as is preferring Fords to Chevies. Some atheists DO prefer
>> Fords, you know, but that doesn't make a preference for Fords part of
>> atheism.
>So what do imagine your other "Atheists" believe, since you seem to imagine
>they don't believe "God doesn't exist"?
Atheism isn't about what someone believes, it's lack of theism - like
asynchronicity is lack of synchronism, not belief in anything.
--
"religion did for bullshit, what Stonehenge did for rocks"
- The World Famous Tink
Barney Lyon
to be true?
If the founding fathers intended the U.S. to be a Christian nation, if
they wanted religion to be in government, why isn't there any mention
of God in the Constitution? The founders weren't at a loss for words
on any other subject.
Do you think that a Christian would say, "Question with boldness even
the existence of a god."
Or "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself,
as far as I know."
How about this: "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the
most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind
has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that en-gine of
grief has produced!"?
Or "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that
denomination (Protestant Calvinism)."
Would a Christian write this?:
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first
example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and
if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of
artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider
this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the
formation of the American governments is at present little known or
regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an
object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons
employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any
degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon
ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will
forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely
by the use of reason and the senses."
Or this?: ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus
founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a
pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over
the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great
point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
How about this?:
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in
all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility
in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
Or this?:
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual
tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they
have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no
instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.
Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an
established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
Or this?:
"My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received
from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But
scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having
doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated
in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation
itself.
Or this?:
". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened
that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended
by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be
refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short,
I soon became a through Deist."
Or this?:
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects
in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been
persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians
thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on
one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed
persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans.
These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice
themselves both here [England] and in New England."
Or this?:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the
Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by
any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "
Or this?:
"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no
more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more
repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing
called Christianity. "
John Quincy Adams, Ethan Allen, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James
Madison, Thomas Paine and George Washington were all Deists. A Deist
is not a Christian -- Deism does not recognize revealed religion,
preferring instead a view that "while God created the universe, he is
not directly involved in it". They eschew miracles, the divinity of
Christ and generally practice no regular worship service. They prefer
a naturalistic view of the world to one influenced by the
supernatural.
Ian Robertson, in Sociology (3rd edition, Worth Publishing Inc.: New
York, 1987) said, "At the time of its founding, the United States
seemed to be an infertile ground for religion. Many of the nation's
leaders - include George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin
Franklin - were not Christians, did not accept the authority of the
Bible (Jefferson's word for the Bible was "dunghill"), and were
hostile to organized religion. The attitude of the general public was
one of apathy: in 1776, only 5 percent of the population were
participating members of the churches."
The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself
upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines -it-- the
United States Constitution.
If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it
would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out
their Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact,
nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of
Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two
references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st
Amendment's says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . .
no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any
office or public trust under the United States."
Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to
the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American
people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church
and State."
Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation
between church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in
the Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say
"freedom of religion," yet the First Amendment implies both.
As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the
Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the
plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by
inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the
plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion
was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to
comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the
Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every
denomination."
James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church
and State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution,
also held similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward
Livingston, 10 July 1822:
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every
past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in
greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
Today, if ever our government needed proof that the separation of
church and State works to ensure the freedom of religion, one only
need to look at the plethora of Churches, temples, and shrines that
exist in the cities and towns throughout the United States. Only a
secular government, divorced from religion could possibly allow such
tolerant diversity.
Many Christians who think of America as founded upon Christianity
usually present the Declaration as "proof." The reason appears
obvious: the document mentions God. However, the God in the
Declaration does not describe Christianity's God. It describes "the
Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." This nature's view of God agrees
with deist philosophy but any attempt to use the Declaration as a
support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.
More significantly, the Declaration does not represent the law of the
land as it came before the Constitution. The Declaration aimed at
announcing their separation from Great Britain and listed the various
grievances with the "thirteen united States of America." The
grievances against Great Britain no longer hold, and we have more than
thirteen states. Today, the Declaration represents an important
historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain
at a time before the formation of our independent government.
Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the
lofty thoughts of poets, and judges may mention it in their summations,
it holds no legal power today. Our presidents, judges and policemen
must take an oath to uphold the Constitution, but never to the
Declaration of Independence.
Of course the Declaration depicts a great political document, as it
aimed at a future government upheld by citizens instead of a religious
monarchy. It observed that all men "are created equal" meaning that we
all come inborn with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness. That "to secure these rights, governments are instituted
among men." The Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by
Christianity, nor does it imply anything about a Christian foundation.
Treaty of Tripoli
Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a
government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular
government did not require a reflection to themselves about its
origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S.
delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the
intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little
known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals
the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation.
Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the
United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of
Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article
11, it states:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and
as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no
pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an
interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1-796 (the
end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Bar-low, the
American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility
for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as
a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with
Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned
Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular
government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien,
et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into
English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the
treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the
secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during
his presidency), sending the document -on to the Senate. The Senate
approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the
Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this
multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the
slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its
publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.
So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our
government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the
Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all
treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).
Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli
only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly
represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of
the U.S. government.
Common Law
According to the Constitution's 7th Amendment: "In suits at common
law. . . the right of trial by jury shall be preserved; and no fact,
tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the
United States than according to the rules of the common law."
Here, many Christians believe that common law came from Christian
foundations and therefore the Constitution derives from it. They use
various quotes from Supreme Court Justices proclaiming that
Christianity came as part of the laws of England, and therefore from
its common law heritage.
But one of our principle Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson,
elaborated about the history of common law in his letter to Thomas
Cooper on February 10, 1814:
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was
introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered
from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to
the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common
law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth
century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century;
the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having
taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here
then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was
in existence, and Christianity no part of it.
". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that
period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it
to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far
alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But
none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If,
therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of
Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part
of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if,
having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we
are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely
affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth)
that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
In the same letter, Jefferson examined how the error spread about
Christianity and common law. Jefferson realized that a
misinterpretation had occurred with a Latin term by Prisot, "*ancien
scripture*," in reference to common law history. The term meant
"ancient scripture" but people had incorrectly interpreted it to mean
"Holy Scripture," thus spreading the myth that common law came from
the Bible. Jefferson writes:
"And Blackstone repeats, in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, that
'Christianity is part of the laws of England,' citing Ventris and
Strange ubi surpa. 4. Blackst. 59. Lord Mansfield qualifies it a
little by saying that 'The essential principles of revealed religion
are part of the common law." In the case of the Chamberlain of London
v. Evans, 1767. But he cites no authority, and leaves us at our peril
to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the
measure of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of
revealed religion obligatory on us as a part of the common law."
Thus we find this string of authorities, when examined to the
beginning, all hanging on the same hook, a perverted expression of
Priscot's, or on one another, or nobody."
The Encyclopedia Britannica, also describes the Saxon origin and adds:
"The nature of the new common law was at first much influenced by the
principles of Roman law, but later it developed more and more along
independent lines." Also prominent among the characteristics that
derived out of common law include the institution of the jury, and the
right to speedy trial.
Christian Sources
Virtually all the evidence that attempts to connect a foundation of
Christianity upon the government rests mainly on quotes and opinions
from a few of the colonial statesmen who had professed a belief in
Christianity. Sometimes the quotes come from their youth before their
introduction to Enlightenment ideas or simply from personal beliefs.
But statements of beliefs, by themselves, say nothing about
Christianity as the source of the U.S. government.
There did occur, however, some who wished a connection between church
and State. Patrick Henry, for example, proposed a tax to help sustain
"some form of Christian worship" for the state of Virginia. But
Jefferson and other statesmen did not agree. In 1779, Jefferson
introduced a bill for the Statute for Religious Freedom which became
Virginia law. Jefferson designed this law to completely separate
religion from government. None of Henry's Christian views ever got
introduced into Virginia's or U.S. Government law.
Unfortunately, later developments in our government have clouded early
history. The original Pledge of Allegiance, authored by Francis
Bellamy in 1892 did not contain the words "under God." Not until June
1954 did those words appear in the Allegiance. The United States
currency never had "In God We Trust" printed on money until after the
Civil War. Many Christians who visit historical monuments and see the
word "God" inscribed in stone, automatically impart their own personal
God of Christianity, without understanding the Framers Deist context.
In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States,
Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Many
Christians use this as evidence. However, Brewer wrote this in dicta,
as a personal opinion only and does not serve as a legal
pronouncement. Later Brewer felt obliged to explain himself: "But in
what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not
in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the
people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the
Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its
citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary,
all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our
people profess other religions, and many reject all."
Conclusion
The Framers derived an independent government out of Enlightenment
thinking against the grievances caused by Great Britain. Our Founders
paid little heed to political beliefs about Christianity. The 1st
Amendment stands as the bulkhead against an establishment of religion
and at the same time insures the free expression of any belief. The
Treaty of Tripoli, an instrument of the Constitution, clearly stated
our non-Christian foundation. We inherited common law from Great
Britain which derived from pre-Christian Saxons rather than from
Biblical scripture.
Today we have powerful Christian organizations who work to spread
historical myths about early America and attempt to bring a Christian
theocracy to the government. If this ever happens, then indeed, we
will have ignored the lessons from history. Fortunately, most liberal
Christians today agree with the principles of separation of church and
State, just as they did in early America.
"They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their
country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not
hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a
single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not o-f the same
opinion on this point"
-Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835
Bibliography
Borden, Morton, "Jews, Turks, and Infidels," The University of North
Carolina Press, 1984
Boston, Robert, "Why the Religious Right is Wrong About Separation of
Church & State, "Prometheus Books, 1993
Boston, F. Andrews, et al, "The Writings of George Washington," (12
Vols.), Charleston, S.C., 1833-37
Fitzpatrick, John C., ed., "The Diaries of George Washington,
1748-1799," Houghton Mifflin Company: Published for the Mount Vernon
Ladies Association of the Union, 1925
Gay, Kathlyn, "Church and State,"The Millbrook Press," 1992
Handy, Robert, T., "A History of the Churches in U.S. and Canada," New
York: Oxford University Press, 1977
Hayes, Judith, "All those Christian Presidents," [The American
Rationalist, March/April 1997]
Kock, Adrienne, ed., "The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the
American Experiment and a Free Society," New York: George Braziller,
1965
Mapp, Jr, Alf J., "Thomas Jefferson," Madison Books, 1987
Middlekauff, Robert, "The Glorious Cause," Oxford University Press,
1982
Miller, Hunter, ed., "Treaties and other International Acts of the
United States of America," Vol. 2, Documents 1-40: 1776-1818-, United
States Government Printing Office, Washington: 1931
Peterson, Merrill D., "Thomas Jefferson Writings," The Libra-ry of
America, 1984
Remsburg, John E., "Six Historic Americans," The Truth Seeke-r Company,
New York
Robinson, John J., "Born in Blood," M. Evans & Company, New -York, 1989
Roche, O.I.A., ed, "The Jefferson Bible: with the Annotated
Commentaries on Religion of Thomas Jefferson," Clarkson N. Potter,
Inc., 1964
Seldes, George, ed., "The Great Quotations," Pocket Books, New York,
1967
Sweet, William W., "Revivalism in America, its origin, growt-h and
decline," C. Scribner's Sons, New York, 1944
Woodress, James, "A Yankee's Odyssey, the Life of Joel Barlo-w," J. P.
Lippincott Co., 1958
Encyclopedia sources:
Common law: Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 6, "William Benton-,
Publisher, 1969
Declaration of Independence: MicroSoft Encarta 1996 Encyclopedia,
MicroSoft Corp., Funk & Wagnalls Corporation.
In God We Trust: MicroSoft Encarta 1996 Encyclopedia, MicroSoft Corp.,
Funk & Wagnalls Corporation.
Pledge of Allegiance: Academic American Encyclopedia, Vol. 1-5, Grolier
Incorporated, Danbury, Conn., 1988
Special thanks to Ed Buckner, Robert Boston, Selena Brewington and
Lion G. Miles, for help in providing me with source materials.
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html
http://www.deism.com/washington.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b44ab97110d.htm
http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm
http://www.borndigital.com/founders.htm
DaveH
"Peter Principle" <petesfeats@CUT IT OUThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t4VLd.23160$V51....@fe1.texas.rr.com...
> X-No-archive: yes
> Bob LeChevalier wrote:
>> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> as his personal diary readily proves. Daily prayer and Bible
>>>>>>> reading was his regular practice. He was orthodox in his
>>>>>>> Christian faith and practice.
>>>>
>>>> And you don't know a damn thing about history
>>>
>>> Fortunately I know far more than you do, however.
>>
>> Jim has credentials to support the fact that he knows quite a lot
>> about history, given that his historical reference website is used by
>> large numbers of lawyers and researchers. What are your credentials?
>
> fucking TRIPOD freebie site is somehow an authoritative historical
> citation? From some nutball PARALEGAL, no less, and not even a historian?
> You're sucking down stupid bullshit from some idiot who couldn't even earn
> a fucking bachelor's degree?
>
> BWA HA HA HA HA HA, whew!
>
> So, you stupidly think Jim fucking Allison is a peer acknowledged expert
> on ANYTHING? No doubt that's why he can't get published in ANY reputable
> forum and has to rely on a shitty little giveaway site to peddle his
> idiocy.
>
> BWA HA HA HA HA HA, whew!
>
> Man, you fucking idiots never cease to amuse. If only you were smart
> enough to know you aren't smart enough....
>
> Welcome to reality
>
Oh, now there is well expressed opinion. Very eloquent and professionally
put! It almost makes me want to become a Christian so that I don't have to
side with the like.
Dave H.
Mark K. Bilbo
lumbered into the room and mumbled:
>
> In article <idMLd.4929$S3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> writes:
>>
>>
>> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
>> news:OLidnY59Yb0...@megapath.net...
>> >
> {...}
>> > Yah, Washington. The guy who used to walk out of church services early
>> > and when the preacher complained he was setting a bad example, solved
>> > the problem by never going back...
>>
>>
>> On May 12, 1779, General George Washington was visited at his military
>> encampment by some chiefs of the Delaware Indian tribe. They had
>> brought three youths to be trained in the American schools. Washington
>> assured them, commenting:
>>
>> "Congress will look upon them as their own Children...You do well to
>> wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of
>> Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and a happier people than
>> you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise
>> intention."
>>
>>
> Immediately following on which the good Christian people of this great
> country, founded on Christian principles, proceded to deceive, murder,
> displace, burn, and otherwise make every faithful effort to anihilate the
> aforementioned Children, a crusade on behalf of which Congress itself
> spared neither money nor legislative support. As God is my witness.
Well, guess they *did prove the US was founded on Christian principles...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
Mark K. Bilbo
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks lumbered into the room and mumbled:
> On May 12, 1779, General George Washington was visited at his military
> encampment by some chiefs of the Delaware Indian tribe. They had brought
> three youths to be trained in the American schools. Washington assured
> them, commenting:
>
> "Congress will look upon them as their own Children...You do well to wish
> to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus
> Christ. These will make you a greater and a happier people than you are.
> Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise
> intention."
Then the US perpetrated genocide, systematically exterminating almost an
entire continent of people.
Must be those "Christian principles" of which you speak...
Mark K. Bilbo
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks lumbered into the room and mumbled:
>
> "D T" <kissmyass&Imigh...@fhue.org> wrote in message
> news:10vvsm0...@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in
>> message news:1gSLd.6626$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> This quote is unattributed, and only appears on Fundy websites. Without
>> attribution, the quote is most assuredly made up and is worthless.
>>
>> If you expect to be taken seriously, please find a reference for the
>> original source material.
>
>
> You ignorant asshole, it's found PLENTY of other places besides "Fundy
> websites". Like in "America's God and Country, Encyclopedia of
> Quotations", hardcover, available from Amazon, for example. You ignorant
> asshole.
>
> If you expect to be taken seriously, please stop making yourself look like
> an ignorant asshole. Also, if you expect to not be called names, then
> you'd better learn to not initiate namecalling, like you did to me in your
> earlier post, you asshole.
>
> BTW, asshole - since you indicated you are especially interested in the
> "unattributed" quote provided you above, one of the primary sources for
> that one is none other than "The Writings of George Washington from the
> Original Manuscript Sources: 1749-1799" (Washington, DC: Bureau of
> National Literature and Art, 1907). HINT ASSHOLE: that's not a "Fundy
> website". It's called "a book", something you're probably not very
> familiar with
>
> Or, you could have looked at the footnote in "America's God and Country -
> Enclopedia of Quotations" and discovered that primary source for yourself,
> you pathetic dumb asshole.
Aw, you just failed the 1 Peter 3:9 test so you're not really a Christian
anyway...
Mark K. Bilbo
LeChevalier lumbered into the room and mumbled:
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
>>> And he STILL doesn't say anything
>>> that would indicate that he believes in the Christian God.
>>
>>You wish!
>>
>>From General George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24
>>pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting, we see the
>>depth of his Christian faith:
>
> The alleged prayer book is a known fraud nor written by Washington and not
> in his handwriting. It wasn't even published until 1891. Any book
> written after 1936 that uses it is a book not to be trusted.
>
> http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2004/12/george_washingt.html
Ooops!
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Bob LeChevalier" <loj...@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:ha2001dakm9htg273...@4ax.com...
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
>>> And he STILL doesn't say anything
>>> that would indicate that he believes in the Christian God.
>>
>>You wish!
>>
>>From General George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24
>>pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting, we see the
>>depth of his Christian faith:
>
> The alleged prayer book is a known fraud nor written by Washington and
> not in his handwriting. It wasn't even published until 1891. Any
> book written after 1936 that uses it is a book not to be trusted.
Nope. And historical texts much earlier than 1936 recognized it as
legitimate, as do scholars today.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> In our last episode <ha2001dakm9htg273...@4ax.com>, Bob
> LeChevalier lumbered into the room and mumbled:
>
>> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
>>>> And he STILL doesn't say anything
>>>> that would indicate that he believes in the Christian God.
>>>
>>>You wish!
>>>
>>>From General George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24
>>>pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting, we see the
>>>depth of his Christian faith:
>>
>> The alleged prayer book is a known fraud nor written by Washington and
>> not
>> in his handwriting. It wasn't even published until 1891. Any book
>> written after 1936 that uses it is a book not to be trusted.
>>
>> http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2004/12/george_washingt.html
>
> Ooops!
Ooops yourself! From that very URL posted above:
"At present, the question is an open one, and its settlement will depend on
the discovery of the originals, or upon the demonstration that they are the
work of Washington."
IOW, it has NOT been established that "the alleged prayer book is a fraud",
and in fact since the writings in Washington's field notes prayer book are
consistent with all the other writings and sayings of George Washington,
fundamentalist Christian, your claim falls totally apart.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
On the contrary, this particular section of the thread, deals also with John
Adams, as you can see from the included content above.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
Oh, OK. Now what?
Isn't that pretty much what you'd expect to find in an enclopedia of
quotations of famous Americans having to do with God and country?
You sound really stupid.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Enkidu" <enk...@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns95F09F93...@130.133.1.4...
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in
> news:4wTLd.3601$Nn1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>>>> You ignorant asshole, it's found PLENTY of other places besides
>>>> "Fundy websites". Like in "America's God and Country, Encyclopedia
>>>> of Quotations", hardcover, available from Amazon, for example. You
>>>> ignorant asshole.
>>>
>>> Hahahahahahaha! Like that's not a biased source!
>>
>>
>> ALL sources are biased, so what's your point?
>>
>> For example, that particular encyclopedia is "biased" in terms of
>> listing only quotations having to do with America. It turns a cold
>> shoulder, as it were, to Sweden. Such shocking bias probably gives
>> you an attack of the vapors, yes?
>
> All may be biased, but some are flat out fabrications.
Nope, none are "fabrications".
Try again.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote in
> news:TQSLd.3570$Nn1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>>
>> "Al Klein" <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:sstvv0t5u6r6girll...@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:06:24 GMT, "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks"
>>> <Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>>>
>>>>> Just to clear up a couple points. Atheist isn't a faith.
>>>
>>>>Oh yes it is. It is a faith belief that "God doesn't exist".
>>>
>>> Some atheists believe that, some don't; so it's as much a part of
>>> atheism as is preferring Fords to Chevies. Some atheists DO prefer
>>> Fords, you know, but that doesn't make a preference for Fords part of
>>> atheism.
>>
>>
>> So what do imagine your other "Atheists" believe, since you seem to
>> imagine they don't believe "God doesn't exist"?
>
> I remain unconvinced by your arguments that your God exists.
That's fine. Now answer the question.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Al Klein" <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:15:19 GMT, "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks"
> <Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>
>>Our country's founding president
>
> The country wasn't founded by a president, and Washington wasn't one
> of the founding fathers.
In a sense, you are correct, in that the real founding fathers are the
Pilgrims. And the founding document, written by the Pilgrims, is The
Mayflower Compact, which of course also reveals (as does George Washington's
writings) that ours is a Christian nation, founded on Christian principles
and laws:
"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal
Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of
England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&.
Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian
Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first
colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and
mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine
ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and
Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to
enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts,
Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet
and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all
due submission and obedience.
In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the
eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of
England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the
fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
I find your claim that Adams "was a Unitarian" questionable, given what
Adams wrote in his diary.
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Al Klein" <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 21:50:43 GMT, "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks"
> <Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>
>>"Al Klein" <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:sstvv0t5u6r6girll...@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:06:24 GMT, "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks"
>>> <Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>
>>>>> Just to clear up a couple points. Atheist isn't a faith.
>
>>>>Oh yes it is. It is a faith belief that "God doesn't exist".
>
>>> Some atheists believe that, some don't; so it's as much a part of
>>> atheism as is preferring Fords to Chevies. Some atheists DO prefer
>>> Fords, you know, but that doesn't make a preference for Fords part of
>>> atheism.
>
>>So what do imagine your other "Atheists" believe, since you seem to
>>imagine
>>they don't believe "God doesn't exist"?
>
> Atheism isn't about what someone believes, it's lack of theism
No, that's Agnosticism you're describing. Atheism is the faith belief "God
doesn't exist."
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
Thus we see that the rather stupid Mark K. Bilbo doesn't really believe that
the various "indian reservations" across the country contain actual
descendents of the so-called "native Americans", since (according to Mark K.
Bilbo) those people were all "exterminated".
What an ass....
Enkidu
No sources have ever been fabricated? You are a moron.
Enkidu
I've a better idea. You and your particularly rude brand of Christianity
can take a flying fuck.
Al Klein
<Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>"The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or
>existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity,
>and Humanity."
>(John Adams diary, July 26, 1796)
You mean THIS John Adams:
As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation.
But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have
been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made
them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816
Or this one:
Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient
Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions,
above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the
public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813, quoted
from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Or perhaps this one:
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example
of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved --
the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The
Great Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of
Disbelief
Or this:
What havoc has been made of books through every century of the
Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the
bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew
manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of
suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgatorius, the Inquisition,
the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible,
the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should
the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy
lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins
in In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American
Founding Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from
James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
This:
God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy
is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of
the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardiff, What Great Men Think
of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Yes, quite the lover of Christianity, our second president. Like
Hitler was a lover of Judaism.
--
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
Al Klein
<Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>You ignorant asshole, it's found PLENTY of other places besides "Fundy
>websites". Like in "America's God and Country, Encyclopedia of
>Quotations", hardcover, available from Amazon, for example. You ignorant
>asshole.
Such an unbiased "source". but still not the original source material.
--
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in horror. 'But what
shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the
blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast and you ask me what
you shall put in its place?" - Voltaire
Al Klein
<Leftis...@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:
>Isn't that pretty much what you'd expect to find in an enclopedia of
>quotations of famous Americans having to do with God and country?
I'd expect to find Adams' excoriations of Christianity - they have to
do with a famous American and his views on the Christian god and the
county.
Sadly, only quotes backing up the erroneous contention that the
country was founded on Christian principles are included.
--
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus
was not born of a virgin."
Cardinal Bellarmine,[1615, during the trial of Galileo]
D T
news:_nXLd.4301$cl1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> news:tN-dnXddaqe...@megapath.net...
>> In our last episode <ha2001dakm9htg273...@4ax.com>, Bob
>> LeChevalier lumbered into the room and mumbled:
>>
>>> "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
>>>>> And he STILL doesn't say anything
>>>>> that would indicate that he believes in the Christian God.
>>>>
>>>>You wish!
>>>>
>>>>From General George Washington's personal prayer book, consisting of 24
>>>>pages in his field notebook, written in his own handwriting, we see the
>>>>depth of his Christian faith:
>>>
>>> The alleged prayer book is a known fraud nor written by Washington and
>>> not
>>> in his handwriting. It wasn't even published until 1891. Any book
>>> written after 1936 that uses it is a book not to be trusted.
>>>
>>> http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2004/12/george_washingt.html
>>
>> Ooops!
>
> Ooops yourself! From that very URL posted above:
>
> "At present, the question is an open one, and its settlement will depend
> on the discovery of the originals, or upon the demonstration that they are
> the work of Washington."
>
> IOW, it has NOT been established that "the alleged prayer book is a
> fraud",
I guess you really don't understand the difference between proven true, and
proven false.
As an example, please prove to us that you never said that "buttfucking your
priest is a god given right."
If you can't it must be true.
> and in fact since the writings in Washington's field notes prayer book are
> consistent
Consistant is not the same as accurate. I can easily claim that "buttfucking
your priest is a god given right" is consistant with what you say.
with all the other writings and sayings of George Washington,
> fundamentalist Christian, your claim falls totally apart.
George Washington was not fundamentalist for the simple reason that fundy
protestants did not exist at the time, and Washington's own words are
inconsistant with fundy morons rolling on the floor and preaching nonsense.
Not even a good try, dumbass.
D T
Only because you erroneously included it my obtuse friend.
D T
Actually, if you fail to understand the concept of quote mining to advocate
a particular perspective, stupid is a kind word to use for you.
I believe in a post from someone else you were shown that the author is not
an expert, has an agenda, and uses material proven to be intentionally
misleading and falsified. If you'd like I'll repost it for the record.
D T
Well, of course you do. But considering the volume of scholarly historical
evidence that contradicts you, and the quotes that you snipped, there's no
one that need to take your word for it.
How about I repost what you snipped? See if you can rationalize these quotes
against your one unreferenced one.
Here's the website. Did you even read it?
http://www.geocities.com/peterroberts.geo/Relig-Politics/JohnAdams.html
And here are the quotes. My 15+ beat your one, asswipe.
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall
govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it
by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of
governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now
sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture,
hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in
their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American
governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in
America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be
pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the
gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those
at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it
will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by
the use of reason and the senses.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United
States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American
Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society
(1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support
the Separation of State and Church"
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural
authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and
which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of
the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United
States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American
Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society
(1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support
the Separation of State and Church"
We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions
... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and
power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human
character and the state of society.
-- John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785, quoted from Albert
Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom (1991)
As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But
how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been
blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the
most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816
The frightful engines of ecclesiastical councils, of diabolical malice, and
Calvinistical good-nature never failed to terrify me exceedingly whenever I
thought of preaching.
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, October 18,
1756, explaining why he rejected the ministry
I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being
molested myself.
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, August 29,
1756, explaining how his independent opinions would create much difficulty
in the ministry, in Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the
New Nation (1987) p. 88, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations
that Support the Separation of State and Church"
When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary
induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can
supersede it.
-- John Adams, from Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from from
James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient
Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all
the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after
miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813, quoted from
James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has
prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster
must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for
centuries before he expires.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814, from James A.
Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
I do not like the reappearance of the Jesuits.... Shall we not have regular
swarms of them here, in as many disguises as only a king of the gipsies can
assume, dressed as printers, publishers, writers and schoolmasters? If ever
there was a body of men who merited damnation on earth and in Hell, it is
this society of Loyola's. Nevertheless, we are compelled by our system of
religious toleration to offer them an asylum.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 5, 1816
Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition
and dogmatism cannot confine it.
-- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from
James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821, from James A.
Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the
abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross.
Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, from George Seldes, The Great
Quotations, also from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning....
And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or
dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest
billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality
is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a
solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the
clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the
hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and
eyes.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in Norman Cousins, In God
We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers
(1958), p. 108, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved
out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful
opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or
wicked priests.
-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography
What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian
era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope
Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in
France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the
Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and
the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse,
than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you
considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and
triumphed for 1,500 years.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins in In
God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding
Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from James A. Haught,
ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got
rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the
Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardiff, What Great Men Think of
Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Numberless have been the systems of iniquity The most refined, sublime,
extensive, and astonishing constitution of policy that ever was conceived by
the mind of man was framed by the Romish clergy for the aggrandizement of
their own Order They even persuaded mankind to believe, faithfully and
undoubtingly, that God Almighty had entrusted them with the keys of heaven,
whose gates they might open and close at pleasure ... with authority to
license all sorts of sins and Crimes ... or withholding the rain of heaven
and the beams of the sun; with the management of earthquakes, pestilence,
and famine; nay, with the mysterious, awful, incomprehensible power of
creating out of bread and wine the flesh and blood of God himself. All these
opinions they were enabled to spread and rivet among the people by reducing
their minds to a state of sordid ignorance and staring timidity, and by
infusing into them a religious horror of letters and knowledge. Thus was
human nature chained fast for ages in a cruel, shameful, and deplorable
servitude....
Of all the nonsense and delusion which had ever passed through the mind
of man, none had ever been more extravagant than the notions of absolutions,
indelible characters, uninterrupted successions, and the rest of those
fantastical ideas, derived from the canon law, which had thrown such a glare
of mystery, sanctity, reverence, and right reverend eminence and holiness
around the idea of a priest as no mortal could deserve ... the ridiculous
fancies of sanctified effluvia from episcopal fingers.
-- John Adams, "A Dissertation on the Canon and the Feudal Law," printed in
the Boston Gazette, August 1765
We think ourselves possessed, or, at least, we boast that we are so, of
liberty of conscience on all subjects, and of the right of free inquiry and
private judgment in all cases, and yet how far are we from these exalted
privileges in fact! There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian
world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine
inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to
Revelations. In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the
stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In England itself it is punished by boring
through the tongue with a red-hot poker. In America it is not better; even
in our own Massachusetts, which I believe, upon the whole, is as temperate
and moderate in religious zeal as most of the States, a law was made in the
latter end of the last century, repealing the cruel punishments of the
former laws, but substituting fine and imprisonment upon all those
blasphemers upon any book of the Old Testament or New. Now, what free
inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or
imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating into the divine
authority of those books? Who would run the risk of translating Dupuis? But
I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though I have it much at heart. I think
such laws a great embarrassment, great obstructions to the improvement of
the human mind. Books that cannot bear examination, certainly ought not to
be established as divine inspiration by penal laws. It is true, few persons
appear desirous to put such laws in execution, and it is also true that some
few persons are hardy enough to venture to depart from them. But as long as
they continue in force as laws, the human mind must make an awkward and
clumsy progress in its investigations. I wish they were repealed. The
substance and essence of Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and
unchangeable, and will bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with
extraneous ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they
ought to be separated. Adieu.
-- John Adams, one of his last letters to Thomas Jefferson, January 23,
1825. Adams was 90, Jefferson 81 at the time; both died on July 4th of the
following year, on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of
Independence. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The
Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 234. Quoted
from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of
State and Church."
Razzer
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks wrote:
> Our country's founding president understood that our country is
founded on
> Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our
religious
> duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
>
> On May 2, 1778, General George Washington issued these orders to his
troops
> at Valley Forge:
>
> "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and
soldiers,
> we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of
religion.
>
> To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest
Glory to
> laud the more distinguished Character of Christian.
>
experienced and
> which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success demand
from
> us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and piety to
the
> Supreme Author of all good."
>
>
> Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower of
the
> Atheist Faith who tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on
Christian
> principles", but clearly that befuddled follower of the Atheist Faith
simply
> doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, and is ignorant
concerning
> what George Washington and our other founders had to say on the
matter.
The moment you read "Christian", "Supreme Author", "Providence" you
immeadately assume that the speaker/writer is Christian. Why? What in
this quote directly show that G. Washington was Christian?
Gray Shockley
(in article <ctoglf$lje$1...@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>):
> In article <pan.2005.02.01....@stopspam.net> MarkA
> <mant...@stopspam.net> writes:
>> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 12:15:19 +0000, Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks wrote:
>>
>>> Our country's founding president understood that our country is founded on
>>> Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that our
>>> religious duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
>>>
>>
>> Just what are "Christian principles"? Do you mean Humanism? You know,
>> the basic teachings of Jesus minus the metaphysical bullshit?
>
>
> Me, I'm still musing over his treasonous implication that the stipulations
> of religion should trump the stipulations of the Constitution.
>
>
> -- cary
>
As long as it's anonymous poster's religion, of course.
++ Gray //
Razzer
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks wrote:
> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote in message
> > In our last episode
> > <rpKLd.3676$cl1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Pencil-necked
> > Demmie Freaks lumbered into the room and mumbled:
> >
> >> Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower
of the
> >> Atheist Faith who tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on
Christian
> >> principles", but clearly that befuddled follower of the Atheist
Faith
> >> simply doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, and is
ignorant
> >> concerning what George Washington and our other founders had to
say on
> >> the
> >> matter.
> >
matter, it's
> > you.
> >
> > You probably don't even know who James Madison *is...
>
>
> General George Washington describes how he felt about disciples of
the
> Atheist Faith:
>
> "The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this [the
course of
> the war] that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and
more
> wicked that has not gratitude to acknowledge his obligations; but it
will be
> time enough for me to turn Preacher when my present appointment
ceases."
>
> (General George Washington writing to his friend Brigadier-General
Thomas
> Nelson in Virginia, August 20, 1778)
"[L]acks faith" in what? Care to explain and support your answer by
using the words in this quote?
Razzer
Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks wrote:
> <bucke...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:uh0vv09c8ieol2oha...@4ax.com...
> > "Pencil-necked Demmie Freaks" <Leftis...@Losers.net> wrote:
> >
> >>:|Our country's founding president understood that our country is
founded
> >>on
> >>:|Christian beliefs and principles. In fact, he understood that
our
> >>religious
> >>:|duties SUPERCEDE our secular duties.
> >
> >
orthodox
> > Christian.
>
>
> On the contrary, George Washington was a VERY devout Christian, as
his
> personal diary readily proves. Daily prayer and Bible reading was
his
> regular practice. He was orthodox in his Christian faith and
practice.
Have you read his diary?
>
>
> > In fact, none of the first half dozen presidents were orthodox
Christians.
> >
> >>:|
> >>:|On May 2, 1778, General George Washington issued these orders to
his
> >>troops
> >>:|at Valley Forge:
> >>:|
> >>:|"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens
and
> >>soldiers,
> >>:|we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of
> >>religion.
> >>:|
> >>:|To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our
highest
> >>Glory to
> >>:|laud the more distinguished Character of Christian.
> >>:|
> >>:|The signal instances of Providential goodness which we have
experienced
> >>and
> >>:|which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success
demand
> >>from
> >>:|us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and
piety to
> >>the
> >>:|Supreme Author of all good."
> >>:|
> >
> > Do you have a cite for the above quote?
> > Without one its is rather worthless.
>
>
> No, it is "worthless" only if it is false. Which it is not.
Doi. Without a cite, it *would* be false.
>
> But if you're still interested in a cite (which I suspect you really
are
> not) you can find that quote for yourself in "America's God and
Country -
> Encylopedia of Quotations", by William J. Federer. The book is
still in
> print, and available from Amazon and elsewhere. Nice hardcover
edition
> too.
It seems that Mr. Federer is a worse crackpot than David Barton. At
least Barton had studies in history (I think). Why are we deferring to
a Business major when he provides no credible evidence that he is
competent enough to publish such a book?
>
> You can find that particular quote on page 643 of that encylopedia.
>
>
> >>:|Occasionally one encounters in this newsgroup a ranting follower
of the
> >>:|Atheist Faith who tries to claim "our country wasn't founded on
> >>Christian
> >>:|principles", but clearly that befuddled follower of the Atheist
Faith
> >>simply
> >>:|doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, and is ignorant
> >>concerning
> >>:|what George Washington and our other founders had to say on the
matter.
> >
> > LOL, the only one who doesn't know what he is talking about is you.
>
>
> So you claim, yet I am able to back up all my assertions, while you
> apparently are not.
>
>
>
> > Just to clear up a couple points. Atheist isn't a faith.
>
>
> Oh yes it is. It is a faith belief that "God doesn't exist". And
since
> there is no proof or scientific basis for that particular belief, it
is
> STRICTLY a faith belief.
It may be a "faith" belief, but it is not a *religious* faith belief.
>
>
> > While I did not write the original post, it arrived in our email
this
> > morning from a mailing list, I did post it and I am no a atheist.
> >
> > So much for your comments.
>
>
> And so much for yours, sir.