OT: Kerry & Swift boats - it not *about* Bush!
Mr Wizzard
It ain't ABOUT George Bush!, geeSUS! Don't fall into this trap.
Look, this is between John Kerry and the Swift boat vets, NOT
Bush! Kerry apparantly diss's a bunch of swift boat vets *in*
Viet Nam, and worse yet, when he came *back*!, THAT is the
issue here. He came back to the states to sit there on TV and
senate panels and RAILED on these vets calling them baby
killers, and murders and the like, so what the fuck does he EXPECT?
Kerry had to either address these issues, or explain his actions.
You simply CAN'T do what he did and expect NOT to get
called on it. He throws his metals away, now wants to put them
back on and run for president. He diss's on his fellow vets both
in Viet Nam, and then when he comes back, now he wants to
discredit them yet AGAIN now, calling them Bush attack dogs.
The more Kerry pushed this, the worse its gonna get for him.
These Swift boat vets are PISSED, and its *old* vengence,
and thats the worst kind. Kerry fucked these people back them,
squeeled on them when he came back and called them baby
killers, and now calling them Bush cronies - what the fuck
could he POSSIBLY expect these vets to do? - kiss his ass?
And so WHAT if someone paid $200,000 to make the ad?
Say the ad was FREE to produce (and it wasn't!), worst case
would be that they directly PAID each of the 200+ vets. That
would be LESS than $1,000 each, and there is NO way a
Viet Nam vet is gonna sell out their honor for less than $1,000.
And since the mechanics of making TV ads *is* expensive,
(worst case again), say it took only $100K to make, that
would be less than $500 to each vet for his story. Again,
I can't see no vet like this selling our their honor for $500.
Further, the Dems spent THREE million on THEIR ads,
and then they get all bent over $100-$200K that didn't
EVEN come directly from the Republicans (where the
3 million of the Dems DID!).
Kerry has to be accountable for this, and his actions
when he came back to the states when he railed on
these vets like this. It would be MUCH MUCH different
if Kerry *didn't* throw his metals down, and if he *didn't*
do all that senate panel, and TV stuff back in 1971 and
was just a regular Viet Nam soldier. For if he WAS, I'd
be taking his same position about these ad's, I really would.
But the issue * I S * the Swift boat vets ! - he NEEDS to
face this, and address it, and thats all there is to it!.
And NOW (to boot)! Kerry is trying to squash free
speech and file complaints, and trying to stop the book.
Can you feature THAT ? Then he won't release his records.
But again, this is about Switft boats vets, and really IS
between Kerry and these vets, no one else. Further,
its not really even a Dem issue either - its strictly a
Kerry v vet issue, and we should just sit back and
let Kerry handle it. I'm sorry, I just can't believe that
there are 200+ Swift boat vets that are just out for
some money to say these things. I heard with my own
ears all the things that Kerry said about these vets in
71, and there is no wonder in my mind why we're at
this crossroad. People who do things like Kerry did
in 9171 just simply has to be accountable for this,
thats all. Just like he says Bush needs to be accountale,
Kerry needs to be accountable for what he did/said,
even IF it was 35 years ago!. This was harsh shit
that he said/did to his fellow vets, and it WON'T
easily go away, so for Kerry to expect anything ELSE
is simply not reasonable.
jet
<W...@databasix.com> wrote:
[total bullshit about Kerry "railing" at vets and calling them baby
killers]
> I heard with my own ears all the things that Kerry said about these vets
> in 71.
Another lie. The Winter Soldier testimony was in supposrt of vets. Read
it again: http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Testimony
In case you have trouble, in the part where he refers to atrocities:
"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears,
cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and
turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at
civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot
cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the
countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and
the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied
bombing power of this country."
He is saying *what other soldiers told him they did*.
Now, go on and tell me that there were no atrocities committed
ib Viet Nam. I'd love to shove that down your throat, too.
PlainBill
contributor to his campaigns, and you say they aren't about Bush?
Whizzy, you are so pathetic, it's funny.
PlainBill
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:18:52 -0700, "Mr Wizzard" <W...@databasix.com>
wrote:
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
-Thomas Paine
Mr Wizzard
"jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
news:_OqdnTpaaaB...@adelphia.com...
> In article <cg70f9$ar9$1...@blackhelicopter.databasix.com>, "Mr Wizzard"
> <W...@databasix.com> wrote:
> [total bullshit about Kerry "railing" at vets and calling them baby
> killers]
>
> > I heard with my own ears all the things that Kerry said about these vets
> > in 71.
>
> Another lie. The Winter Soldier testimony was in supposrt of vets. Read
> it again: http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Testimony
>
> In case you have trouble, in the part where he refers to atrocities:
>
> "They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears,
> cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and
> turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at
> civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot
> cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the
> countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and
> the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied
> bombing power of this country."
>
> He is saying *what other soldiers told him they did*.
He also said that HE personally took part in that activity.
But that wasn't my POINT! My POINT was that these
"other soldiers" are the ones that are now pissed, as in the
"other" Swiftboat soldiers (who would of BEEN the other
soldiers that told him they did) since the Swiftboat Vets
are the ones that he ate/drink/slept/worked with in Nam.
>
> Now, go on and tell me that there were no atrocities committed
> ib Viet Nam. I'd love to shove that down your throat, too.
Yer as bad as they are actually - just "itching" to lash out.
You're missing the point really... This little "riff" is *really*
between Kerry and these S.B.Vets, and thats all there is
to it, and its pretty much out of anyone of *our* hands,
as this is old wounds that he opened up, and he's gonna
have to face/address it on his own with these SB Vets.
loopy
wrote:
>This fucking thing with these Swift boat vets is just -killing- me here....
``~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
The New York Times
August 20, 2004
Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad
By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG
After weeks of taking fire over veterans' accusations that he had lied
about his Vietnam service record to win medals and build a political
career, Senator John Kerry shot back yesterday, calling those
statements categorically false and branding the people behind them
tools of the Bush campaign.
His decision to take on the group directly was a measure of how the
group that calls itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has catapulted
itself to the forefront of the presidential campaign. It has advanced
its cause in a book, in a television advertisement and on cable news
and talk radio shows, all in an attempt to discredit Mr. Kerry's war
record, a pillar of his campaign.
How the group came into existence is a story of how veterans with
longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early
1970's allied themselves with Texas Republicans...
... A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of
connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures
and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.
... the group's television commercial was produced by the same team
that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an
oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the
1988 presidential election.
The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry
the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the
events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the
accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with
inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these
veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own
statements.
Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise
on him, some as recently as last year.
In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized
biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York
Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the
group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar
positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about
him." He added, "He's a good man."
In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June
2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr.
Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."
George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from
his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry
during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that
the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage."
At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now
speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about
the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift
boats."
"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and
cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the
finest of those Swift boat drivers."
Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr.
Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him
as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment
and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest
distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called
Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged
leader in his peer group."
... It all began last winter, as Mr. Kerry was wrapping up the
Democratic nomination. Mr. Lonsdale received a call at his
Massachusetts home from his old commander in Vietnam, Mr. Hoffmann,
asking if he had seen the new biography of the man who would be
president.
Mr. Hoffmann had commanded the Swift boats during the war from a base
in Cam Ranh Bay and advocated a search-and-destroy campaign against
the Vietcong - the kind of tactic Mr. Kerry criticized when he was a
spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War in 1971. Shortly after
leaving the Navy in 1978, he [Hoffman] was issued a letter of censure
for exercising undue influence on cases in the military justice
system.
Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in
the past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," while it
burnished Mr. Kerry's reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless
leaders whose military approach had led to the deaths of countless
sailors and innocent civilians. Several Swift boat veterans compared
Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty colonel in the film "Apocalypse Now"
- the one who loves the smell of Napalm in the morning.
... Mr. Hoffmann's phone calls led them to Texas and to John E.
O'Neill, who at one point commanded the same Swift boat in Vietnam,
and whose mission against him dated to 1971, when he had been
recruited by the Nixon administration to debate Mr. Kerry on "The Dick
Cavett Show."
... About 10 veterans met in Ms. Spaeth's office in Dallas in April to
share outrage and plot their campaign against Mr. Kerry, she and
others said. Mr. Lonsdale, who did not attend, said the meeting had
been planned as "an indoctrination session."
What might have been loose impressions about Mr. Kerry began to
harden.
"That was an awakening experience," Ms. Spaeth said. "Not just for me,
but for many of them who had not heard each other's stories."
The group decided to hire a private investigator to investigate Mr.
Brinkley's account of the war - to find "some neutral way of actually
questioning people involved in these incidents,'' Mr. O'Neill said.
But the investigator's questions did not seem neutral to some.
Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he
initially thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily
gave a statement about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart.
The investigator said he would send it to him by e-mail for his
signature. Mr. Runyon said the edited version was stripped of all
references to enemy combat, making it look like just another night in
the Mekong Delta.
"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he
said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the
scariest night of my life."
... The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command:
Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under
fire. It is published by Regnery, a conservative company that has
published numerous books critical of Democrats, and written by Mr.
O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, who was identified on the book jacket as
a Harvard Ph.D. and the author of many books and articles. But Mr.
Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a contributor of
anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments to a right-wing
Web site. He said he regretted those comments.
The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a
retired rear admiral who says in the book that he had been on the
small skimmer on which Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December
1968. He contends that Mr. Kerry wounded himself while firing a
grenade.
But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr.
Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third
crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to
three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he
had not recalled Mr. Schachte until he had a conversation with another
veteran earlier this year and received a subsequent phone call from
Mr. Schachte himself.
... Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports,
pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying
they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry
Thurlow, who said his boat was 50 to 60 yards from Mr. Kerry's. Mr.
Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the initials
refer to the person who had received the report at headquarters, not
the author.
A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three
bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports
indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others
wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the
boat was hit the day before. He also received a Bronze Star for the
day, a fact left out of "Unfit for Command."
Asked about the award, Mr. Thurlow said that he did not recall what
the citation said but that he believed it had commended him for saving
the lives of sailors on a boat hit by a mine. If it did mention enemy
fire, he said, that was based on Mr. Kerry's false reports. The actual
citation, Mr. Thurlow said, was with an ex-wife with whom he no longer
has contact, and he declined to authorize the Navy to release a copy.
But a copy obtained by The New York Times indicates "enemy small
arms," "automatic weapons fire" and "enemy bullets flying about him."
The citation was first reported by The Washington Post on Thursday.
``~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
"Republican Sen. John McCain, co-chair of Bush's campaign in Arizona,
a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John
Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the
White House on Thursday to condemn it as well." GWB's refusal to
condemn the "dishonest and dishonorable" tactic is due to the close
relationship between GWB chief political advisor Karl Rove and Houston
home-builder Bob J. Perry (a prolific Republican donor to extreme
conservative causes, who has donated at least $100,000 to Swift Boat
Veterans for Truth).
***********************************************************************************
"I deplore this kind of politics," McCain said. "I think the ad is
dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served
on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his
courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam."
[...]
***********************************************************************************
What he said!
loopy
[without the nicks & cuts of a blade]
loopy
wrote:
Of the Swiftboat Vets who actually WERE the ones who
"ate/drink/slept/worked" with [Kerry] in Nam", three of those veterans
on Kerry's boat that day - Jim Rassmann, who says Kerry saved his
life, Gene Thorson and Del Sandusky, the driver on Kerry's boat, said
the group [Swift Boat Veterans for Truth] was lying.
They say Kerry was injured, and Rassmann called the group's [Swift
Boat Veterans for Truth] account "pure fabrication."
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/vote/33127.php
>> Now, go on and tell me that there were no atrocities committed
>> ib Viet Nam. I'd love to shove that down your throat, too.
>
>Yer as bad as they are actually - just "itching" to lash out.
>You're missing the point really... This little "riff" is *really*
>between Kerry and these S.B.Vets, and thats all there is
>to it, and its pretty much out of anyone of *our* hands,
>as this is old wounds that he opened up, and he's gonna
>have to face/address it on his own with these SB Vets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group O'Neill helped form, has taken
out $500,000 in TV advertising challenging Kerry's highly decorated
war record, claiming stories of his heroism were fabricated, and that
he wasn't entitled to two of the three Purple Hearts or the Bronze and
Silver stars he was awarded.
From his earliest campaign ads, including at least two aired in
Tucson, through his rousing speech at the Democratic National
Convention, Kerry has highlighted his service in Vietnam as evidence
of his leadership ability, particularly at a time of war.
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads, running in Ohio, Wisconsin and West
Virginia, but not Arizona, say the group formed to "provide solid
factual information" about Kerry's tour of duty.
The group includes veterans who served on Swift boats in Vietnam,
including some of the commanders who recommended Kerry for the awards
they now say he didn't deserve.
Although none served under his command, they say they were close
enough to the 1969 events - in some cases within 50 yards - to know
the truth.
Although they aren't affiliated with the Republican Party, they are
backed by several of the party's longtime big contributors and
activists.
A number of them have acknowledged they are still bitter toward Kerry
for his highly vocal role more than 30 years ago in Vietnam Veterans
Against the War, and his 1971 statements that American soldiers,
himself included, committed war crimes in Vietnam.
The anti-Kerry ads are something of a role-reversal from a few months
ago, when some top Democratic leaders were questioning President
Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard during Vietnam.
Although the National Guard has been a prime source of personnel for
Iraq, in the Vietnam era it was generally seen as an alternative to
being drafted and sent to Vietnam.
In February, Kerry asked his Democratic colleagues to stop challenging
Bush on that issue, but stopped short of repudiating their charges.
Similarly, the Bush White House has neither endorsed nor denounced the
ad criticizing Kerry's war record, nor asked the group to withdraw it.
Thirty-seven years after the fact the challenge against Kerry's
service boils down to one side's word versus the other's. Military
records and statements by most crewmen who served with him support
Kerry's side, while the recollections of nearly 200 veterans who
served at the same time disagree.
This is what is known about the points raised in the dueling TV
versions of history:
* Kerry enlisted in 1966, while still a student at Yale. He
volunteered to go to Vietnam and to command a Swift boat.
* President Bush enlisted in the National Guard in 1968.
* John O'Neill, one of the founders of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth,
took over Kerry's command when Kerry was sent home after being awarded
his third Purple Heart.
White House tapes from 1971 show O'Neill was recruited by Chuck
Colson, then an aide to Republican President Nixon, to debate Kerry on
the Dick Cavett Show over Kerry's claims Americans were committing war
crimes, and to appear at news conferences. Colson was later convicted
for his role in Watergate.
* Merrie Spaeth, the anti-Kerry group's Dallas-based media
representative, is a former White House media director under
Republican President Reagan. She was a communications consultant to
Special Prosecutor Kenneth Starr during his investigation of
Democratic President Bill Clinton. She gave a maximum $2,000 to the
Bush re-election campaign, and has given about $5,000 to other
national GOP candidates since 2000.
* As of their last campaign finance filing, Swift Boat Veterans for
Truth received $100,000 of their $158,000 in contributions from Bob J.
Perry, a Houston home builder. He has contributed at least $260,000 to
national Republican candidates and organizations over the last five
years. He also gave maximum $2,000 contributions to the Bush 2004
re-election campaign and to Attorney General John Ashcroft's
unsuccessful U.S. Senate campaign in 2000.
* Significant political contributions could be found for only two
leaders of the anti-Kerry group.
* Eleven of the 12 men who actually served with Kerry support his
version of events, according to Scripps Howard News Service.
* Although none of Kerry's detractors served on the same boat, retired
Adm. Roy F. Hoffmann said they were operating 25 to 50 yards away,
while others have described the distance as "a few yards." By
contrast, "Tour of Duty," a Kerry biography, describes his wounds and
the rescue of Army Special Forces Lt. Jim Rassmann that resulted in
one Purple Heart and his Bronze Star as happening "several hundred
yards" from the second boat involved.
The detractors also deny Kerry was under enemy fire when he pulled
Rassmann from a river, a claim Rassmann disputes and that is
inconsistent with the Navy citation accompanying the award. Rassman is
featured in pro-Kerry ads.
In a May interview with the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, Hoffmann said
he didn't have any firsthand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims.
* A sworn statement by Dr. Louis Letson claims he treated Kerry for a
shrapnel wound in the arm that led to his first Purple Heart. He
described the wound as a "slight injury" and says a Kerry crewman told
him there was no hostile fire and the shrapnel was from a grenade
Kerry had thrown himself.
But military medical records provided by the Kerry campaign to the
nonpartisan Annenberg Institute show he was treated by a J.C. Carreon,
not Letson, and Kerry crewmates deny talking to Letson.
* Navy Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard, Kerry's former commander, who
appears in the anti-Kerry ad, signed a statement saying he turned down
the request for Kerry's first Purple Heart because the wound was
insignificant. But in a Boston Globe interview in April, Hibbard
acknowledged he eventually acquiesced to the award, despite having
questions.
Also, Hibbard's statement describing the wound as "a tiny scratch,
less than from a rose thorn" is inconsistent with Letson's description
of it as shrapnel lodged in the arm.
Much of Hibbard's statement is devoted to criticizing Kerry for
"betrayal of his shipmates" for his anti-war activities after
returning from Vietnam.
* Former Lt. Commander George Elliott, another former Kerry commander
who appears in the anti-Kerry ad, retracted his comments Thursday,
saying he made "a terrible mistake" when he said Kerry didn't deserve
a Silver Star for shooting a Viet Cong who was carrying a rocket
launcher.
It was Elliott who glowingly recommended Kerry for that award in 1969,
and he said he still believes Kerry deserves it. He also recommended
Kerry for the Bronze Star.
Elliott said he felt pressured to sign the statement presented by the
group because it was rushing to put out an anti-Kerry book before the
election.
http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/metro/33322.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The little *rift* as you call it is sponsored by GWB and his chief
political advisor Karl Rove along with several of the GOP's longtime
big contributors and activists such as Rove's pal staunch Republican
Houston builder Bob J. Perry who contributed well over $100,000 to the
dishonorable and dishonest so-called "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth".
jet
>
> "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> news:_OqdnTpaaaB...@adelphia.com...
>
> He also said that HE personally took part in that activity.
> But that wasn't my POINT! My POINT was that these
> "other soldiers" are the ones that are now pissed, as in the
They're pissed about something he said 35 years ago, that was true.
It's time they got over it and stopped living in denial, like other vets
have.
> "other" Swiftboat soldiers (who would of BEEN the other
> soldiers that told him they did)
>
Wrong. The "other soldiers" were soldiers who had served all over
Viet Nam, not Swift Boat Vets, who participated in Project
Winter Soldier. The point of Winter Soldier was not that soldiers
committed war crimes (as it is extensively documented they did) but
that the war was damaging to the lives, minds and futures of the
soldiers. In retrospect, can you deny that was true?
> since the Swiftboat Vets
> are the ones that he ate/drink/slept/worked with in Nam.
The vast majority of the Swift Boat Vets for Truth have never met
Kerry, nor did they serve in the same area or at the same time he did.
In case you didn't know, there were -thousands- of Swift Boat vets.
The 200 supporting Bush are a very small percentage and the
more vocal ones have all been shown to have grudges against Kerry
for things unrelated to his post war activism.
Mr Wizzard
> In article <%_KVc.296908$%_6.8968@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
<w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> > news:_OqdnTpaaaB...@adelphia.com...
> > > He is saying *what other soldiers told him they did*.
> >
> > He also said that HE personally took part in that activity.
> > But that wasn't my POINT! My POINT was that these
> > "other soldiers" are the ones that are now pissed, as in the
>
> They're pissed about something he said 35 years ago, that was true.
> It's time they got over it and stopped living in denial, like other vets
> have.
No!, therein lie the problem. They have the RIGHT to call
him on in, and in my opinion, the moral obligation to do so.
This cat is running for president for gaqd sakes, and if he has
unfinished business about some war stuff, then by golly, it high
time for him to be accountable for it and address it. Besides
the whole honor, and moral aspects of it, its all free speech.
If Kerry wouldn't have dredged all this up he wouldn't be in
this mess. Moreover, if Kerry didn't DO all that diss'n shit
to these vetc in the FIRST place, wouldn't even be at issue.
jet
>
> "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> news:tvmdnfkHVff...@adelphia.com...
> > In article <%_KVc.296908$%_6.8968@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
> <w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> > > news:_OqdnTpaaaB...@adelphia.com...
> > > > He is saying *what other soldiers told him they did*.
> > >
> > > He also said that HE personally took part in that activity.
> > > But that wasn't my POINT! My POINT was that these
> > > "other soldiers" are the ones that are now pissed, as in the
> >
> > They're pissed about something he said 35 years ago, that was true.
> > It's time they got over it and stopped living in denial, like other vets
> > have.
>
> No!, therein lie the problem. They have the RIGHT to call
> him on in, and in my opinion, the moral obligation to do so.
> This cat is running for president for gaqd sakes, and if he has
> unfinished business about some war stuff, then by golly, it high
> time for him to be accountable for it and address it. Besides
It's all been addressed. It's all been accounted for. The Swift
Boat Vets for Truth lied and it's been proved, over and over.
There's no unfinished business.
> the whole honor, and moral aspects of it, its all free speech.
> If Kerry wouldn't have dredged all this up he wouldn't be in
> this mess. Moreover, if Kerry didn't DO all that diss'n shit
> to these vetc in the FIRST place, wouldn't even be at issue.
He didn't, you illiterate clod. Tell you what; you show me where
he "dissed" Viet Nam vets.
Mr Wizzard
> In article <btVVc.298823$%_6.101684@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
<w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> > news:tvmdnfkHVff...@adelphia.com...
> > > In article <%_KVc.296908$%_6.8968@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
> > <w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:_OqdnTpaaaB...@adelphia.com...
> He didn't, you illiterate clod.
I'm not calling YOU names here in this thread,
and on this issue, so why must YOU resort to
this kind of emotional behaviour with me here ?
Change your ways, and maybe we can continue.
loopy
wrote:
>No!, therein lie the problem. They have the RIGHT to call
>him on in, and in my opinion, the moral obligation to do so.
They (The so-called Swift Boat Vets for Truth) have a right to LIE
about what happened in Viet Nam??
William B. Rood an editor on the Chicago Tribune's metropolitan desk,
said he broke 35 years of silence about the Feb. 28, 1969, mission
that resulted in Kerry's receiving a Silver Star because recent
portrayals of Kerry's actions published in the best-selling book
"Unfit for Command" are wrong and smear the reputations of veterans
who served with Kerry.
Rood, who commanded one of three swift boats during that 1969 mission,
said that Kerry came under rocket and automatic weapons fire from Viet
Cong forces and that Kerry devised an aggressive attack strategy that
was praised by their superiors.
He called allegations that Kerry's accomplishments were "overblown"
untrue.
"The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts
on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has
splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those
of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue,
especially when they come from people who were not there," Rood said
in a 1,700-word first-person account published in Sunday's Tribune.
Rood's recollection of what happened on that day at the southern tip
of South Vietnam was backed by key military documents, including his
citation for a Bronze Star he earned in the battle and a glowing
after-action report written by the Navy captain who commanded his and
Kerry's task force and is now a critic of the Democratic candidate.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A5CF25B19
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FEB. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER
`This is what I saw that day'
By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 22, 2004
There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more
than 35 years ago--three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of
those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28,
1969.
One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a
Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.
For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus
of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat
veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver
Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple
Hearts he was awarded for other actions.
Many of us wanted to put it all behind us--the rivers, the ambushes,
the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for
interviews about Kerry's service--even those from reporters at the
Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have
charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics
have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit
of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on
all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were
there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they
come from people who were not there.
Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have
continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were
with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.
I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I
am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting
crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for
what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again
talk publicly about it.
I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no
firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the
Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.
But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three
swift boats--including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's
PCF-43--that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and
a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay
Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.
The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two
huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops
and gear, was no secret.
Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.
Instructions from Kerry
The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that
particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not
responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.
We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a
clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into
it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers
and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.
The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded
boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched
attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back
down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the
troops got there.
The first time we took fire--the usual rockets and automatic
weapons--Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on
the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the
attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats
and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or
captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used
to stage ambushes.
Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving
Droz's boat at the first site.
It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn
maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I
remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't
fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.
We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one
member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch--a
thatched hut--maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who
were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I
nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've
checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no
surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that
frequently differ.
With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site,
Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to
search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I
heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the
man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40
rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the
operation.
John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam
service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a
"loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day
was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in
the kind of garb the VC usually wore.
The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as
O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing
from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from
the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one
attacker.
Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response
from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.
Congratulatory message
Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now
retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a
message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that
the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of
completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most
efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."
Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what
the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be
impulsive to a fault.
Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not
impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a
mutual agreement of all three boat officers.
It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by
the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces,
Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer,
Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy
commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh
River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who
speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the
mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.
Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went
upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.
Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was
given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had
largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.
The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by
Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was
expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like
Bernique's were encouraged.
What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by
our top commanders.
Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off
the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and
assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.
Error in citation
My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic
we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."
There's at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly
identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that
such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for
their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to
piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that
happened so long ago--not the documents and not even the strained
recollections of those of us who were there.
But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they
mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in
the public eye.
Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we
charged the riverbank, Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun
tub atop our boat, and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our
aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.
Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through
even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal
ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of
the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his
only child, Tracy.
The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country
now.
Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a
successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn
that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every
year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on
the tall poles in his back yard.
Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by
his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running.
Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson
finished a second military career in the Army.
With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living
that war another time.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K5EF21B19
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William B. Rood an editor on the Chicago Tribune's metropolitan desk,
said he broke 35 years of silence about the Feb. 28, 1969, mission
that resulted in Kerry's receiving a Silver Star because recent
portrayals of Kerry's actions published in the best-selling book
"Unfit for Command" are wrong and smear the reputations of veterans
who served with Kerry.
[...]
"The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts
on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has
splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those
of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue,
especially when they come from people who were not there," Rood said
in a 1,700-word first-person account published in Sunday's Tribune.
Thank you Mr Rood for presenting your FIRST HAND account as per
happened on Feb. 28, 1969, when YOU were an officer in charge of
PCF-23, one of three swift boats--including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt.
j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43--that carried Vietnamese regional and
Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a
narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River.
PlainBill
wrote:
>
>"jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
>news:p66dndzdU8e...@adelphia.com...
>> In article <btVVc.298823$%_6.101684@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
><w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
>> > news:tvmdnfkHVff...@adelphia.com...
>> > > In article <%_KVc.296908$%_6.8968@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
>> > <w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
>> > > > news:_OqdnTpaaaB...@adelphia.com...
>
>
>
>
>> He didn't, you illiterate clod.
>
>I'm not calling YOU names here in this thread,
>and on this issue, so why must YOU resort to
>this kind of emotional behaviour with me here ?
>Change your ways, and maybe we can continue.
>
And once again Whizzy runs away when faced with facts. Whizzy, you
should face the truth - you ARE an illiterate clod. Your claims have
no merit. You are a wart on the internet.
PlainBill
PlainBill
Thanks for posting this.
PlainBill
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:30:20 -0500, loopy <unlo...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
-Thomas Paine
loopy
wrote:
>
>"jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
>news:p66dndzdU8e...@adelphia.com...
>> In article <btVVc.298823$%_6.101684@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
><w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
>> > news:tvmdnfkHVff...@adelphia.com...
>> > > In article <%_KVc.296908$%_6.8968@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
>> > <w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
>> > > > news:_OqdnTpaaaB...@adelphia.com...
>
>
>
>
>> He didn't, you illiterate clod.
>
>I'm not calling YOU names here in this thread,
>and on this issue, so why must YOU resort to
>this kind of emotional behaviour with me here ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Mr Wizzard (w...@muffy-mail.com)
Subject: Re: EQ sold thousands of people out
View: Complete Thread (143 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.dss.hack
Date: 2004-02-08 13:10:11 PST
<snip>
So I'm a hypocrite/name caller (you already know this), and
I never said I wasn't. [...]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U26334C19
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Change your ways, and maybe we can continue.
loopy
jet
>
> "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> news:p66dndzdU8e...@adelphia.com...
> > In article <btVVc.298823$%_6.101684@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
> <w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> > > news:tvmdnfkHVff...@adelphia.com...
> > > > In article <%_KVc.296908$%_6.8968@attbi_s01>, "Mr Wizzard"
> > > <w...@muffy-mail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "jet" <j...@untool.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:_OqdnTpaaaB...@adelphia.com...
>
>
>
>
> > He didn't, you illiterate clod.
>
> I'm not calling YOU names here in this thread,
> and on this issue, so why must YOU resort to
> this kind of emotional behaviour with me here ?
Because it's been proved to you, several times, that Kerry
didn't accuse the vets of committing atrocities. He said,
quite clearly and distinctly, that he was relaying the word
of vets he'd spoken to as part of the Winter Soldier
Investigation.
He could have, in pertfect honesty, said they were commiting
atrocities, but he didn't.
--
War involves killing, and those who say otherwise are unrealistic at best.
No war, however, need involve more than killing the armed enemy who will
otherwise kill you. We need to understand this and be prepared to defend
ourselves if and when the need arises. I want this book to increase
understanding of those survival needs and truths... Compassion, respect
for life and human dignity and, above all, honor, must distinguish us if
we are worthy of surviving. I trust and hope that we will prove to be
worthy of survival.
jet
What's so amusing is that Swift Boat Vets for Truth was started
by Roy Hoffmann, whose gung-ho encouragement to shoot anything
that moved led to the massacre at Thanh Phong. His policy was to
burn 'em out, then kill them.
starwars
>`This is what I saw that day'
[Bullshit snipped!]
Lies! Lies! ALL LIES! Do not believe any one who says they were with
John F. Kerry the day he won his SILVER STAR! Nobody but Republican Swift
Boat Vets were there! Only THEY know the truth! Only they are to be
believed!
George W. Bush is the greatest President in the history of the US of A!
While John F. Kerry was taking a vacation in the paradise of South East
Asia piloting a pleasure craft at TAX PAYER EXPENSE, George W. Bush was
fighting the Viet Cong in Texas and Alabama! George W. Bush was forced to
fly OBSOLETE aircraft on his secret missions to attack the Viet Cong,
greatly endangering his own life! John F. Kerry might have 3 purple hearts
and a Silver Star, but George W. Bush has 2 silver fillings, which he
received for his service!
It is a well known fact that John F. Kerry killed a baby in a loin cloth
who was doing nothing more than shooting a pea shooter into the water.
Kerry disobeyed orders to just move along and come back later to see if the
baby in the loin cloth was still shooting peas, and instead charged his
pleasure craft, with guns blazing, into the baby's position. The
frightened baby fled, with his pea shooter still in hand. Kerry hunted the
baby down and killed him! The evil military complex awarded John F. Kerry
the silver star for killing a BABY! Then Kerry LIED and said it was a man
with a rocket launcher. Lies, all lies!
John F. Kerry spent all of his youth in a drug induced stupor! He
frequently did cocaine and alcohol and was arrested several times for DUI
and for fighting with his own FATHER! JFK is a member of a secret society,
THE SKULL AND BONES, and went to a yuppie school: YALE. How can you ever
trust anyone who went there? Kerry is no Texas tiger! He and his family
are from Kennybunkport, MAINE! How can you trust New Englanders, all of
whom are LIBERALS, drunks and RICH!
Now John F. Kerry wants to be President! He is opposing a WAR PRESIDENT!
How can any true American not support our troops and our President by
running for the office at this time? The election should simply be
cancelled! It should be illegal to run against a WAR PRESIDENT!
President Bush has hunted down Osama Bin Ladin, captured him, stripped him
naked and had him whipped through the streets of NYC straight to GROUND
ZERO where Bin Ladin was executed by firing squad and his body buried under
thousands of tons of debris! President Bush has crushed the terrorists who
now fear and respect the US of A! Only after capturing Bin Ladin did Bush
then turn to the other evil empire of the middle east, IRAQ, and, having
found thousands of nuclear weapons about to be dropped on the US of A,
brought down the NEW HITLER! America is now safer than ever before. The
terror alert level has been dismantled. We are completely safe and can go
on with our lives. The cost of the IRAQ war has been completely paid for
with free oil, which the IRAQI people gave to us in gratitude for a job
well done!
The IRAQI people love America. They welcomed us with flowers and candy.
They want to be a Christian Nation just like us! They have rejected
violence and Islam! This is the great legacy of George W. Bush!
The late President Regan and Jesus have teamed up to monitor the next
election. Regan's ghost will be present in every voting both in America.
If you don't vote for George W. Bush, Regan's ghost will report directly to
Jesus your disloyalty. Jesus will place your name in THE BOOK and when
judgement day comes, Jesus, his eyes blazing with lazerbeams, will throw
your filthy soul into the lake of fire. But if you vote for George W.
Bush, you will have 69 virgins in heaven to fuck.
You must now copy this message and send it to 10 of your friends or Jesus
will punish you.
God Bless America and George W. Bush, the greatest president ever!
-M
LOL
jet
<giggle>
TexaSporty
loopy
LOL !! Well done, starwars! LOL!!!
DVDA
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:06:00 +0200 (CEST), starwars
<nob...@tatooine.homelinux.net> wrote:
loopy
wrote:
>This fucking thing with these Swift boat vets is just -killing- me here....
>It ain't ABOUT George Bush! <snip>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lawyer Advising Vets Quits Bush Campaign
Bush Campaign Lawyer Resigns Over Anti-Kerry Ads
By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - One of President Bush's top lawyers resigned from his
campaign Wednesday, a day after disclosing that he had given legal
advice to a veterans group airing TV ads challenging Democrat John
Kerry's Vietnam War service. The guidance included checking ad
scripts, the group said.
Benjamin Ginsberg, who also represented Bush in the 2000 Florida
recount that made the Republican president, told Bush in a letter that
he felt his legal work for the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth had
become a distraction for the re-election campaign.
The Kerry campaign portrayed Ginsberg's departure as another sign of
ties between the Bush campaign and the veterans group, which has been
airing ads accusing Kerry of exaggerating his Vietnam record.
"The sudden resignation of Bush's top lawyer doesn't end the extensive
web of connections between George Bush (news - web sites) and the
group trying to smear John Kerry's military record," said
Kerry-Edwards campaign manager Mary Beth Cahill. "In fact, it only
confirms the extent of those connections."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z2ED21329
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mmpow
Come on... Kerry's fingerprints are all over Moveon.org's activities.
http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/001754.html
At least the Bush camp made anyone in question resign.
--mmpow
Consensus is the absence of leadership - Margaret Thatcher
loopy
**********************************************************************************
"I have decided to resign as national counsel to your campaign to
ensure that the giving of legal advice to decorated military veterans,
which was entirely within the boundaries of the law, doesn't distract
from the real issues upon which you and the country should be
focusing," Ginsberg wrote. http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z2ED21329
**********************************************************************************
Mr Ginsberg on the Factor with Bill denied being "made to resign" as
you claim yet again without offers of proof. <sigh>
I quote and reference the non-partisan INDEPENDENT Yahoo News and you
reference some "blogsforbush". LMAO!!!!
Couldn't at least find something less than *FAIR & BALANCED* on
FOXNEWS to bolster your claim??
"blogsforbush" LMFAO!!!!
>--mmpow
>
>Consensus is the absence of leadership - Margaret Thatcher
"Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the
voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the
path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of
terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives
in fear." - Harry S. Truman
starwars
>to statistics compiled from the Gallup Report and the New York Times, the
>less education one has, the more likely she or he is to vote Democrat
>(assuming that the person can figure out the ballots in Florida).
Sure. The less education one has, the more likely one is poor. And who
looks out for the poor?
Rebublicans give a shit about the poor. They've just taken away their
overtime. They did this to stop the lawsuits from the poor bastards who
have to work at Wal-Mart "off the clock". Now it's legal for Wal-Mart to
threaten their employees with dismissal if they don't agree to work for
FREE.
That's what the new Republicans mean when they say "Land of the FREE. Home
of the Brave!" Land of the FREE off the clock worker, passed by those who
weren't BRAVE enough to serve their country during Viet Nam, but were RICH
and POWERFUL enough to get their daddies to keep them safe in the National
Guard, which was never deployed in Viet Nam.