Caapi and Salvia
Anonymous
> I have heard that B. caapi can enhance psychedelics and fundamentally
> alter their character, usually in a positive direction because of its
> calming effects. This is why B. caapi is usually taken to balance DMT
> in Ayahuasca brews in Peru, and why some trippers on LSD and mushrooms
> incorporate the Vine of The Souls with their experience to ensure a
> good, insightful, peaceful journey.
Well, that's kind of the case, but a little misleading.
Bannisteriopsis Caapi contains beta carbaloids that act as a MOA
inhibitor, and render the DMT orally active. In the South American
Jungles, I *believe* it is the only MOAI that the aboriginals
used. There were many DMT sources, but the caapi was the only
game in town. It's not so much that it balances the DMT -- it
potentiates it in oral preparations.
Having said that, aficionados of ayahuasca claim that the caapi
vine produces a subjectively different experience than, say Syrian
Rue, which contains the same MOAIs (harmine and harmaline I think).
Now, I've seen references that say MOAIs can be psychedelic in
there own rights, but only at near-toxic doses. If these anecdotal
ayahuasca reports are true (and the seem to be widely reported),
this would suggest that one of the other components of caapi flavour
the experience.
>
> Since DMT and S. Divinorum seem to have similar effects
> (phenomenologically at least, not pharamaceutically speaking), might
> B. caapi make the Salvia experience more meaningful, decelerate it a
> bit and then prolong it (as it does with DMT in Ayahuasca)? I've heard
> that the trip on DMT is, like Salvia, relatively short-lived, but when
> combined with B. caapi, its effects can be prolonged for a significant
> amount of time, up to 3 hours.
>
I think you're mixing fruit here. DMT, without a MOAI, must be
either smoked or injected, and *is* short-lived. With the MOAI
it is taken orally, so the physiology is completely different.
If DMT was orally active by itself, there would be no reason to
assume that the caapi would prolong the experience.
> Because B. caapi is an emetic/purgative, could one smoke it to avoid
> the gastrointestinal implications (vomiting and diarrhea) and still
> get the amazing positive effects I've been hearing about?
>
Gastrointestinal distress isn't really common with Salvia. A *few*
people find a quid so bitter as to have problems, but it's usually
just perceived as unpleasant, and vomiting would be extremely rare.
<SNIP>
> through certain DIETARY RESTRICTIONS and/or FASTING. I am asking
> whether someone has ALREADY tried this combination and how they found
> the experience. I am NOT advocating that anyone (not even myself) TRY
Well there is one report that was published at Erowid. It's short, so
I'll quote it in full:
"I have had good experiences smoking 50-75mg of harmala extract
(standard Syrian Rue acid/base technique) prior to smoking Salvia.
Definitely boosted it by 2X and extended the later stages of the
zone for me. I also noticed that my body relaxed into it and was
more allowing of her grace with the tranquilizing effect of the
harmala. Good mix for sure..."
Note that I do not even know the poster of this report; caveat emptor.
Also not the MOAIs most probably would *not* render Salvia orally
active. They would need to be used in conjunction with more traditional
methods of use, like a quid or smoking.
Rasta Robert
lpjo...@mindspring.com (Larry Joseph) wrote
in article <eb66debf.01120...@posting.google.com>
in the newsgroup alt.drugs.salvia:
>Thank you so much for your detailed answer! May I please follow up on
>just two points that I'm not sure I understood?
>
>> I think you're mixing fruit here. DMT, without a MOAI, must be
>> either smoked or injected, and *is* short-lived. With the MOAI
>> it is taken orally, so the physiology is completely different.
>> If DMT was orally active by itself, there would be no reason to
>> assume that the caapi would prolong the experience.
>
>First of all, just to be clear: I have no intention of ingesting or
>smoking DMT at any point. It sounds too frightening, and probably
>should only be done with a shaman, if anyone. But the question is
>this: if Caapi does have something special to add to the DMT
>experience (whether prolonging, potentiating, or just activating), why
>don't people report trying to smoke DMT and CAAPI? As opposed to
>drinking them together? I mean especially since the CAAPI causes
>vomiting orally?
>
>Curiously yours,
>Larry
I think you are still missing the pharmacological interactions
with caapi/tryptaminic-admixture Ayahuasca brews.
Smoking extracted or synthetic DMT is one thing.
Smoked DMT is active of itself for a short and intense experience.
Pure DMT is not used by traditional shamans, and the concentration
of DMT in the plants is not high enough to get substantial effects
with smoking them.
The thing that was and is used by ayahuasceros is ayahuasca/caapi/
yage/natema etc. , brews with as essential ingredient the jungle
vine Banisteriopsis caapi, the Vine of the Soul (aya = soul, ancestor,
dead person ; huasca = vine, rope).
At some times ayahuasca is prepared from caapi only, more often
one or more admixture plants are added. Some of the most often
used admixtures naturally contain DMT.
The caapi vine containsas main alkaloids the beta-cabolines harmine
and tetrahydro-harmine and to a lesser extent harmaline.
Harmine and harmaline are primarily SIRA's (short-acting inhibitors
of MAO-A) and tetrahydro-harmine has a serotonine reuptake inhibiting
action. The caapi in itself has visionary qualities, but than is
best experienced in total darkness because the visions are very
subtle, in dark blueish and violet colors and with not much
contrast, so they're easy to miss. More noticeable is a dreamy,
relaxed state, and sometimes nausea and purging accompanies the
experience. The DMT containing admixtures, chacruna and chacropanga,
are regarded as the paint or light to give color, contrast, intensity
and more duration to the visions. Due to the MAO-A inhibiting action
of the beta-carbolines from the caapi, the DMT remains intact and
can reach the brain. Without the caapi, the DMT would be metabolised
by MAO-A too quickly to have any noticable psycho-active effects.
Note that a lot of different molecules are competing for serotonine
receptor sites to bind to with ayahuasca that consists of caapi and
tryptamine admixture. The beta-carbolines, the (raised level of)
serotonin, and the DMT. Because of the slower absorbtion through
the intestinal tract and the competition going on at the HT5-receptors
the action of the DMT is prolonged and less intense as compared to
smoked or injected pure compound.
Now putting these two together:
I'm not speaking from experience regarding the following, but I think
potentially a smoked pure DMT experience following drinking ayahuasca
would last for a longer time then DMT by itself.
Smoking pure or extracted beta-carbolines would be a possibility,
but I understand just the amount and taste of the DMT smoke you need
to take in is already quite a challenge without adding more smoking
material. I can say that smoking some caapi bark or esfand when
you are draming on mushrooms can be very enlightening en blissful.
Now concerning Salvia and ayahuasca...
My advise would be to first build a relation with those
theachers each by themselves. When you feel more or less
familiar with both, you could get positive results by
chewing a quid of salvia leaves or smoking some salvia
at the end of your ceremony, when most of the acute effects
from the ayahuasca have diminished, but awarenes is still
processing things at a higher than ususual rate and more acute.
If not objectively, one at least subjectively has more time
and perhaps better able/sensitive to notice effects.
Salvinorin-A is not a tryptamine, so the beta-carbolines
don't do the same thing for salvia as they do for chacruna/
chacropanga or psilocybe mushrooms and LSD. The way in wich salvia
works in terms of neurochemistry is actually still shrouded in
mystery.
Rasta Robert
--//->
Anonymous
> The caapi in itself has visionary qualities, but than is
> best experienced in total darkness because the visions are very
> subtle, in dark blueish and violet colors and with not much
> contrast, so they're easy to miss. More noticeable is a dreamy,
> relaxed state, and sometimes nausea and purging accompanies the
> experience.
Have you experienced this? I've not done it personally.
Anonymous
> First of all, just to be clear: I have no intention of ingesting or
> smoking DMT at any point. It sounds too frightening, and probably
> should only be done with a shaman, if anyone. But the question is
> this: if Caapi does have something special to add to the DMT
> experience (whether prolonging, potentiating, or just activating), why
> don't people report trying to smoke DMT and CAAPI? As opposed to
> drinking them together? I mean especially since the CAAPI causes
> vomiting orally?
Well, Robert gave some good information, so I'll just chime in a little...
Caapi inhibits monoamine oxidase (sp?), and in doing so inhibits
your stomach from breaking down the DMT, thus rendering it orally
active. When you smoke, this isn't a concern.
As for smoking caapi, It's *possible* that the vine itself has
some psychoactivity, but a DMT rush is so intense, I don't
think you'd be able to tell, even if it did.
If you want a long Salvia experience, a quid is the way to go --
if it'll work for you. I'm pretty light-weight when it comes to
smoked Salvia, but I've never had good results with a quid.
Larry Joseph
smoke it with sage, I'll let you know what happens. Apparently, it is
supposed to potentiate salvia 2X and approach something like a DMT
experience. Who knows? I've only seen two references to people trying
this combination. Both people reported liking it. We'll see.
What is clear is that I have no expectations that caapi will prolong
the experience. From your erudite commentaries, it seems quite
pharmacologically unlikely, since prolongation seems to be associated
with the process of digestion, not smoking. However, that doesn't mean
that some other potentiation might not occur. Maybe too strong? Well,
at worst it might just be only 5 minutes of terror?
Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (Anonymous) wrote in message news:<0UAY3OAO3723...@frog.gilgamesh.org>...
Rasta Robert
Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (Anonymous) wrote
in article <IO05HOUR3723...@frog.gilgamesh.org>
in the newsgroup alt.drugs.salvia:
I don't have extensive experience with caapi brew alone,
but my feeling is ususally in an ayahuasca ritual from
the first dose mainly the effects from the caapi are noticed,
while with the subsequent doses the DMT becomes more active.
I have participated in a number of ceremonies conducted by
Shuar ayahuasceros and the Natem (ayahuasca) they brought
with them was very strong on the vine (about 10 kilo fresh
vine for 1 liter). For my own ceremonies I usually brew
caapi with chacropanga, huayuasa and a pinch of mapacho,
lately also I use admixtures with medicinal qualities,
namely Una de Gato, Pao d'Arco and Chuchuhuasha.
I feel ayahuasca to go beyond mainly a psychoactive brew,
but to be a holistic medicine in the fullest sense of the word.
Rasta Robert
--//->
Anonymous
> I don't have extensive experience with caapi brew alone,
> but my feeling is ususally in an ayahuasca ritual from
> the first dose mainly the effects from the caapi are noticed,
> while with the subsequent doses the DMT becomes more active.
> I have participated in a number of ceremonies conducted by
> Shuar ayahuasceros and the Natem (ayahuasca) they brought
> with them was very strong on the vine (about 10 kilo fresh
> vine for 1 liter). For my own ceremonies I usually brew
> caapi with chacropanga, huayuasa and a pinch of mapacho,
Mapacho? That's Nicotiana rustica, correct?
It's interesting that you use chacropanga. Have you tried
it with the tradtional Psychotria viridis?
Anonymous
> Thanks for all the clarifications. As soon as my caapi arrives and I
> smoke it with sage, I'll let you know what happens. Apparently, it is
> supposed to potentiate salvia 2X and approach something like a DMT
> experience. Who knows? I've only seen two references to people trying
> this combination. Both people reported liking it. We'll see.
>
Do let us know!
I've found home-grown, unprocessed leaf to be pretty intense, so I'm
not sure that I'd want to potentiate a stronger extraction. Good
luck!
> What is clear is that I have no expectations that caapi will prolong
> the experience. From your erudite commentaries, it seems quite
> pharmacologically unlikely, since prolongation seems to be associated
> with the process of digestion, not smoking. However, that doesn't mean
> that some other potentiation might not occur. Maybe too strong? Well,
> at worst it might just be only 5 minutes of terror?
>
>
Or five minutes of bliss...
Rasta Robert
Anonymous...@See.Comment.Header (Anonymous) wrote
in article <LBGXSN543723...@frog.gilgamesh.org>
in the newsgroup alt.drugs.salvia:
>r...@rasta.op.het.net.ReMoVeThIs (Rasta Robert) wrote:
>
>> I don't have extensive experience with caapi brew alone,
>> but my feeling is ususally in an ayahuasca ritual from
>> the first dose mainly the effects from the caapi are noticed,
>> while with the subsequent doses the DMT becomes more active.
>> I have participated in a number of ceremonies conducted by
>> Shuar ayahuasceros and the Natem (ayahuasca) they brought
>> with them was very strong on the vine (about 10 kilo fresh
>> vine for 1 liter). For my own ceremonies I usually brew
>> caapi with chacropanga, huayuasa and a pinch of mapacho,
>
>Mapacho? That's Nicotiana rustica, correct?
>
Correct.
>It's interesting that you use chacropanga. Have you tried
>it with the tradtional Psychotria viridis?
>
I have brewed with chacruna as well as combined chacropanga
and chacruna. The chacropanga has a somewhat stronger concentration
of tryptamines, and besides DMT and MMT can have trace amounts of
5-MEO-DMT. With chacruna I would use 30-40 g per person in a brew,
while whith chacropanga this would be 15-20 g. Chacruna feels
a bit more gentle, while chacropanga I would say feels more 'electric'.
Chacruna and chacropanga (also called oco yage, water yage and
before it was named Diplopterys cabrerana it was called
Banisteriopsis rusbyana, it is a vine like ayahuasca itself,
but the leaves instead of the bark/wood is used) are both traditional
Ayahuasca addmixtures.
Rasta Robert
--//->
Anonymous
Thanks for the info. I haven't done ayahuasca yet, but am
thinking about starting some B. caapi. I will probably wait
until the summer, though, as I here the caapi is *very* unforgiving
of low temperatures, and my house can get a little cold in the Winter.
r...@rasta.op.het.net.ReMoVeThIs (Rasta Robert) wrote:
Rasta Robert
lpjo...@mindspring.com (Larry Joseph) wrote
in article <eb66debf.0112...@posting.google.com>
in the newsgroup alt.drugs.salvia:
>Dear Robert,
>
>Because B. caapi is both legal to grow, possess, and even brew (unlike
>the ch-plants with DMT), may I ask for a detailed description of how
>to make a pure B. caapi tea/brew? All the descriptions are very
>confusing on a couple of points.
>
>1. The first is: how much caapi PER person. For example, I have 60
>grams powdered bark.
>
For a first time even just 15 g per person could be interesting,
but you could go up to 30 g per person. It is a good idea to
take your time to build a relationship with the caapi vine.
Over time you could increase the amount of caapi you brew with
and even up to around 400 g of caapi is not really unusual.
>2. How much filtered water per 30 grams caapi?
>
Rule of thumb wpuld be to use 30 times the mass of the caapi,
so that would be almost 1 liter. You could do a single extraction
brew with one liter of filtered water acidified with ca 50 ml
lemon and/or lime juice, or a triple extraction using ca 300 ml
of water per boil, acidified with ca 15 ml lemon/lime juice.
After boiling/steeping filter through fabric (cheesecloth/t-shirt/
silkprinting screen), squeeze out the liquid, and evaporate
so much water untill you end up with 50-200 ml of Yage drink.
While you brew, sing and/or whistle over the cooking vessel,
and focus your intention on what you want to ask or want to
learn from the Grandmother Ayahuasca. Usually one would also
do that while pounding and breaking up pieces of the vine, but
you got it already powdered. Blowing some mapacho/tobacco smoke
over the brew to protect and bless it and to awaken/feed the
plant's spirits is also traditional for many ayahuasceros.
>3. How much in cups do you ingest?
>
Could drink it all in one cup, you can also divide it into
more cups you drink with 40-90 minutes in between.
I like to do four cups/rounds, for the east, the south,
the west and the north, in the course of a nightly medicine
circle between sunset and sunrise.
>I'd like just to get it clear. And will I necessarily vomit on a pure
>caapi brew? And what effects should I expect from pure caapi? I
>already know this is not hallucinogenic, but is it more like Valerian
>root -- sedative, calming, helping reach repose?
>
One doesn't necessarily vomit from ayahuasca, whether pure caapi,
or with the usual admixture plants. One should be fully prepared
for the purge, in the form of vomiting and/or diarrea, though.
Some people almost always purge, some never, some just occasionally.
With just pure caapi , visions, if any, would tend to be faint,
maybe if you sit/lay down in complete darkness, and keep yourself
from falling asleep, keep singing and whistling melodies (icaros)
and/or use chacapas or a gourd rattle you might be able to journey.
>Your expertise would be greatly appreciated. Too much confusion!
>
>Larry
>
I hope this cleared up some of the confusion.
Rasta Robert
--//->
23a...@gmail.com
This stuff is spooky when it comes to health.