Washing Salvia Extract with Water
3rdEyeDilated
from the salvinorin's, using Naphtha. Im not much for explosive gas
fumes, so im wondering if its possible to wash an extract in water,
being the Salvinorin is insoluble like the naphtha? Would temperature
play a role? Is there a non-flammable solvent that would serve the
purpose? Thanks for any help
Katra
puffin...@aol.com (3rdEyeDilated) wrote:
I've read that grain alcohol will work...
Still flammable, but less toxic. ;-)
Also cheaper and easier to get.
K.
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Sphere
drinking Alcohol, however, it works best with 191 proof which is close
to 95% Alcohol. It doesn't work all that well with 151 proof Alcohol.
However, 99% Isopropanol is considered medical grade and evaporates
completely out of your extract, so no worry about toxic problems from
it after evaporation... That alone will remove all of the dark waxes
etc.... BUT.... at a price, you loose some of the Salvinorin with each
wash of your extract when using Alcohol because Salvinorin is soluble
to it where as it is not soluble to Naphtha. Ronsonol lighter fluid is
one source of Naphtha that people have used and found not to contain
any contaminates onces evaporated out (in a test dish), however.....
it's all moot to me anyway because you just remove all of the Naphtha
from the Salvinorin prior to drying anyway and then a quick rinse
through of the Salvinorin with a few ml of 99% Isopropanol will remove
the nasties if they exist anyway.
3rdEyeDilated
> Yep.... You can remove all of the chlorophyll compounds using just
> drinking Alcohol, however, it works best with 191 proof which is close
> to 95% Alcohol. It doesn't work all that well with 151 proof Alcohol.
Yeah, ive seen that method. Like you said, im not intrested in losing
salvinorin.
> Ronsonol lighter fluid is one source of Naphtha that people have used and
> found not to contain any contaminates onces evaporated out (in a test dish),
Go to http://www.salvia-info.com/lab/solvents/reports/index.html for
household solvent purity reports. If I were going to use naphtha, id
use Ozark Trail. Ronsonol seems to take on the color of the bottle.
Likely not the best source. But i still think water would work better.
The tars and chlorophylls (at least some of them) are soluble in
water, and salvinorin isnt. There would probably be a loss still, but
a smaller one. Im just wondering if its possible to crystallize. There
an older post fom insane_chemist on this subject, but he burned up his
extraction, and apparently only did it once. Im wondering if anybody
else has tried it.
Sphere
have never had it happen to me, not once. Always clear for me and
never yellows or leaves a residue.
an extract with warm water even though it isnt soluble to water,
supposively. Somehow it is being removed. Valdez says that something
in the leaf allows it to do that - stands to reason if you can chew
leaf and get effects from salvinorin that way - considering you only
have water in saliva.
Delta Wave
I've read that a little natural soap and cold water will do the trick,
albeit I've never tried this method and have no way to find out if any
loss occurs.
Sphere
> albeit I've never tried this method and have no way to find out if any
> loss occurs.
I am working on something right now with water to see how much it
removes and will report back on it later.
3rdEyeDilated
> Google wrote:
> > I have read that a third of the salvinorin can be removed when washing
> > an extract with warm water even though it isnt soluble to water,
> > supposively. Somehow it is being removed. Valdez says that something
> > in the leaf allows it to do that - stands to reason if you can chew
> > leaf and get effects from salvinorin that way - considering you only
> > have water in saliva.
Thats true, but they're talking about washing the leaf. Its not
unusual that some salvinorin comes thru with the tar. But I think if
you let the whole thing settle, the salvinorin might seperate.
> I've read that a little natural soap and cold water will do the trick,
> albeit I've never tried this method and have no way to find out if any
> loss occurs.
What do you mean by natural soap? Lye?
Also, check out http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=18ab9562.0107041332.3acc4ff9%40posting.google.com&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsalvia%2Bwater%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D18ab9562.0107041332.3acc4ff9%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D6
for anyone who likes this topic.
Delta Wave
> What do you mean by natural soap? Lye?
Any sort of soap that doesn't have nasty shit in it. I tried this
earlier today. It won't dissolve gunky wax enough for it to be effective
but it might be an alternative to just rinsing the leaf before with cold
water to get rid of some of the wax before one extracts it out. Even
though it may be just redundant because you'd have to rinse away the
suds with water anyway. So....... rinsing leaf with cold water before
the extraction is the big question. Warm water is a no no. Sphere will
probably post some results as he mentioned a couple posts back in this
thread.
> Also, check out http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=18ab9562.0107041332.3acc4ff9%40posting.google.com&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsalvia%2Bwater%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D18ab9562.0107041332.3acc4ff9%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D6
> for anyone who likes this topic.
Or just look for Sphere's numerous postings.
I've also another question. If one were to rehydrate leaf with a solvent
like denatured alcohol--just enough to wet but not soak--and then used
something like acetone to pour over the wet-powder, would that be long
enough to get the salvinorin out? When rehydrated it should be easier
for acetone to rape the salvinorin out. The best setup I could think for
this would be a giant funnel over a giant flask that could be hooked up
to a vacuum pump (or a coffee maker with the hot plate deactivated).
Again, speculation.
Sphere
in a microwave oven could cause a fire inside the oven or worse! Do
this at your own risk! I do so with only limited amounts of solvent
for limited periods of time with a fire extingusher near by. This is a
dangerous activity, some microwave ovens could spark the fumes from
the Alcohol and create a fire or explosion. Some electric ovens could
do the same. A gas range will certainly produce disaster!
Salvia Divinorum Water Extraction Method?
I'm working on something that is producing some interesting results,
an extraction to Salvia leaf using boiling water. I don't have all of
my final efficiency numbers yet, but it seems to work and reduces the
chlorophyll waxes to less than you would have when extracting leaf
with either Acetone or 99% IPA and then cleaning the extract with
Naphtha.
What I did was heat 200g of crushed Salvia leaf in 175 degree F. water
for an hour, poured the brown water into a collection container and
put more water in and heated it again, stirring often, for another
hour. I did this three times and took all of the water and combined
them together for evaporation. I did this by first heating the
combined portions of extract water in a large open pot on top of a gas
stove at exactly 175 degrees F. until the fluid was reduced to just a
few ounces and then transferring the dark brown fluid into a small
glass dish for further evaporation in an oven set to 175 degrees F.
until the extract became a thick sludge.
This sludge was then spooned out onto a removable sheet of Teflon
(made for cooking) and spread out to thinly cover the whole sheet,
then placing the Teflon sheet on a aluminum cookie pan into an oven
set to 150 degrees F. until it became a dry black colored crust. The
flakey crust was then finely powdered using a high RPM coffee grinder
and then placed in Mason jar and 99% IPA was added. I then placed the
jar (half full of solvent, no lid) in a microwave oven until the fluid
begain to boil. I let the Alcohol boil for about 15 seconds and then
then took the jar out and stirred the hot solvent with a spoon for
five minutes, then putting the jar of solvent in a dark cup board over
night so the the tannins would settle to the bottom of the jar.
Interestingly, the Alcohol took on much less green than I had
anticipated, only becomeing a clear translucent yellowish green color,
hardly any Chlorophylls at all.
The next day (after all of the sediments had settled over night) the
Alcohol was then poured off of the brown sediments and I evaporated
the Alcohol all of the way down in an electric oven set to 125 degrees
(oven cracked, exhaust fan on high) and found some very clean
Salvinorin in my little glass dish, a light yellowish green color, far
cleaner than you would have if doing a regular solvent extraction to
the leaf with subsequent washes with Naphtha.
I then took the same leaf and BOILED it for several hours, pouring off
the water twice. Evaporated that water down to a brown sludge and
spread it out on a Teflon cookie sheet for drying. I have powderized
it and am now extracting it too.
I then completely dried the leaf and extracted it for 20 minutes using
99% IPA, the Alcohol took on a translucent green color. I hope to find
the last of the Salvinorin in this leaf too, what is interesting is
that the Alcohol took on very little chlorophyll, it is green, but not
dark green.
Apparently boiling the leaf will destroy a large portion of the
Chlorophylls leaving Salvinorin behind. I believe that I will have a
fairly efficient extraction once the Salvinorin from the water extract
and the 2nd solvent extraction to the leaf are combined.
Why for all of the separate steps:
Taking all of the steps that I did with this will tell me how
efficient each of the steps are, whether 175 degree F. water is enough
to get most of the Salvinorin out or whether boiling the leaf is
needed. Also, depending on how much Salvinorin I get out of the leaf
from the solvent extraction I will know how much of the Salvinorin is
removed by water boiling. Depending upon how much Salvinorin is
collected from all three I will know if water extractions are more or
less efficient than a simple solvent extraction. This will point the
direction that I need to go for the best way to water extract
Salvinorin.
This takes alot more work and is far more time consuming than just
doing a simple solvent extraction, but I thought it worth reporting.
Depending on how efficient it ends up being, this might be a worth
while method.
3rdEyeDilated
> doing a simple solvent extraction, but I thought it worth reporting.
> Depending on how efficient it ends up being, this might be a worth
> while method.
Man, you got right on that, didnt ya? Good stuff though. Saved me some
money and time. I had this idea of alcohol extraction ->hot water bath
evaporation-> naphtha over water partition. They arent miscable (sp?),
i dont think, and i am wondering if the remaining tars that get
through the naphtha are water soluble, and if they would get separate
(fall out) from the salvinorin. If that works, im wodering if it would
be possible to cut out the first evaporation entirely by alcohol
extracting it, adding 2-3x as much petrol. ether to change the
polarity, and partitioning with water. I just dont know wether
salvinorin is less soluble in water or ether.But i have little problem
with boiling alcohol, so im really not worried about any of that - im
just rambling. Thanks for all the good info - keep it coming.
Sphere
> Man, you got right on that, didnt ya? Good stuff though. Saved me some
> money and time.
Were you going to do that? I haven't been following this thread, I'm
too lazy to read everything, just pick up bits and pieces of a long
thread like this and insert what catches my eye.
If you were intending on doing a hot water extraction too, I totally
missed it. Didn't mean to jump the gun on you, I was just wanting to
prove that water can remove Salvinorin from leaf.
Sphere
http://www.entheogen.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000629#000004
3rdEyeDilated
No jumping the gun man - just mixing muck with water. Seemed so simple
that it couldnt work to me. Nice pics too. I was gonna ask you if you
had some, but ya beat me to it again. But you seem to know what your
talking about, or are willing to try it, so ill ask your opinion on
this. Do you think some kind of clandestine or makeshift paper
chromatography could more effeciently purify the salvia? Also, is it
possible to frationally distill the extract?
Sphere
chromatography. Sorry, I don't know what paper chromatography is,
although I have heard of it before. The only reason I know what column
chromatography is about is because I have one that I bought for my
initial Salvinorin extractions back when I was using a separatory
funnel and Naphtha together with Methanol/water to purify Salvinorin,
before I found how it can be done without one.
Fractional distillation? I'm not a chemist, not by a long shot. I am
not sure how your intending on applying that method, could you explain
it better for me to understand? If I had taken chemistry in high
school I would understand this question, but I'm lost on it at the
moment.
Katra
Salvino...@yahoo.com (Sphere) wrote:
You may consider taking a chem. class at the local JC. :-)
Organic chemistry is phun!
K.
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3rdEyeDilated
> chromatography. Sorry, I don't know what paper chromatography is,
> although I have heard of it before.
Paper replaces silica in paper chromatography, and you dont need
anything else except chemicals and a place to put them both.How pure
was the product you got from the chromatography? (before the
separatory funny)
> Fractional distillation? I'm not a chemist, not by a long shot. I am
> not sure how your intending on applying that method, could you explain
> it better for me to understand? If I had taken chemistry in high
> school I would understand this question, but I'm lost on it at the
> moment.
Actually, i didnt take chemistry in hs either- as matter of fact, i
only barely took hs. The idea of fractional distillation is to
seperate substances from others by their boiling point. The b.p.'s
have to a certian degree apart though. Basically, you cook the sample
at the a low setting to let one component boil and vaporize, raise the
temperature, and repeat, leaving whatever isnt boiled. You can
condense the vapor into a (more) pure substance, but im wondering if
insane_chemist's "burning inactives" would work,or wether it would
burn the actives. Vaporizing some of that muck on a pan, again, seems
too easy to work. If anybody ever decides to try it, just start low,
and dont actually boil the stuff. Id let some extract dry, heat it
tuil it melts (if its some solid waxy nast, and increase slow untuil
its steaming.
BTW - how efficient was that water extraction? How pure would you say
it was compared to a separtory extract? Sorry for the onslaught of
questions, but ive just been thinking about crystallizing salvinorin
without waste, and i dont really wanna fux with any kind of ether. It
seems impossible, and its becoming my damn white whale.
Sphere
> BTW - how efficient was that water extraction? How pure would you say
> it was compared to a separtory extract? Sorry for the onslaught of
> questions, but ive just been thinking about crystallizing salvinorin
> without waste, and i dont really wanna fux with any kind of ether. It
> seems impossible, and its becoming my damn white whale.
So far, I have found that with crushed leaf and boiling water it's
about 50% efficient if you boil for an hour and change the water out
(collecting it of course) twice and then crush the dried tannins into
very fine sand-like particles. I won't have a final efficiency figure
for this extraction until later tonight, maybe. Keep in mind that this
was after I had already extracted the leaf with 175 deree F. water
three times which also removed some of the Salvinorin which I have yet
to completely separate from the waxes that came over. So, truth is, I
don't know yet.
The efficiency may go much higher once I get the Salvinorin out of the
tannins from the boiled method. I powdered it into a fine flour-like
consistency and let the tannins fall back out of it over night last
night, but have not evaporated the 99% IPA to know yet. So..... The
efficiency using boiled crushed leaf might go much higher, I don't
have the final figures yet.
I powdered 8 ounces of leaf last night and extracted it three times
with hot water, but not on a stove or heater this time, just pouring
180 degree F. water into a open pan full of the powder and then
stirring it for ten minutes and let it cool down to 115 degrees F. so
that it wouldn't burn my hands while squeezing the water out of the
powdered mush with a cotton cloth.
I took all of the water from that extraction, about a gallon and a
half total and put it in a large flat Teflon coated pan and am now
evaporating it all down in an oven set on 150 degrees F. It has been
in that oven for eight hours now and has reduced volume by about half.
You can't evaporate that tannin extract completely down onto a regular
pan or glass dish because the stuff hardens up and is almost
impossible to get out of the dish, once dry. You have to evaporate it
down in either a Teflon coated container or once evaporated down to a
brown muck spread it out on a paper thin Teflon insert sheet on a flat
cookie pan. The material turns completely black once dried into a
paper thin layer which is very crisp and powders using a small high
rpm coffee grinder very nicely. Then extract with 99% IPA and let
particles settle over night, separate, evaporate... Salvinorin.
Yes, I know what you mean about HS, I did the same thing. Didn't
interest me much.
The extract from the boiled crushed leaf is purer than any other
method I have used, but keep in mind it was a second extraction to the
leaf, removing most of the chlorophylls already by the first
extraction with 175 degree F. water. Even though it is fairly pure, it
could use a quick wash with a few ml of 99% IPA to remove more of the
green before trying to crystalize it. Crystalization isn't that hard,
see this link:
http://www.entheogen.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000604
How pure was the extract from column chromatography: I don't have
exact purity, but in the upper 98 percent or higher is my guess. It is
a yellow fluid and slightly yellowish white powder when evaporated.
Here is a link for column chromatography of Salvinorin:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/salvia/silica/pictorial.html
Sphere
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post from a chemist regarding water extractions:
While I commend your methods, effort, and curiosity in pursuing
potentially useful and attractive methods of extraction...
I have a concern that the Salvinorin-A could be hydrolzyed at one, two
or even three of the ester group sites on the molecule. Ester grops
are sensitive to hydrolysis at elevated temperatures in the presence
of water. The bio-activity of Salvinorin-A is highly reduced by loss
of the ester groups.
Therefore, I ask, have you or will you assay (by instrument or human)
your water extracted material?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response:
You might be right about that. I will get it assayed, but it will
probably be a matter of weeks until I get the results.
I have started another extraction to powdered leaf without boiling
using 180 degree F. water poured into a bowl which cooled fairly
quickly, if this proves successful then perhaps extractions can be
done with water without all of the heat. If hundred degree plus water
is a problem, I will then try room temperature water with powdered
leaf and see if it is efficient enough that way without any heat at
all.
I can do a quick self (human) assay to see if it is potent easy
enough, but that won't be for another day or more.
3rdEyeDilated
> Post from a chemist regarding water extractions:
Either way, theres probably some way to get around it. Might put my
fractional distillation idea six feet under. Post back when you test
it. I hope its straight - i really like the idea of all natural
salvinorin crystals- or even some superpotent wax free extract.
Sphere
extraction to crushed leaf: I ground the tannins from both
extractions into a flour-like powder and re-extracted. I was able to
get about 100 mg of Salvinorin out of the dried tannin from the leaf
simmered in 175 degree F. water for several hours and about 300 mg out
of the powdered tannin from the boiled water extraction to this same
leaf making the total efficiency estimate close to the same as I had
gotton out of powdered leaf using just 99% IPA alone. These are just
rough estimates as I do not have a baseline amount for the Salvinorin
in the raw leaf. However, a regular extraction on this same leaf with
99% IPA produced the same amount. The additional Salvinorin obtained
by grinding the tannin into a fine powder extracted out a christmas
tree green colored Salvinorin requiring further cleaning to remove the
color.[/b]
Sphere
The extract from the water boiled leaf is still so potent that it can
still send you on a journey, but at this point I believe that you
might be right about water hydrolyzing esters and taking some of the
sharpness out of it, not to minimize its effects, because they are
still strong, it just seems to take more of it. I made some leaf that
should have had the effects of 20X but seems to have the effect of
10X, maybe even a bit lower.
This kind of testing is so subjective.... I won't know for sure if
boiling leaf in water is a no no until I try boiling the leaf in water
for a much shorter period of time and then try with that extract too.
I boiled the hell out of the crushed leaf for several hours and that
was after I had already extracted the leaf three times that had been
simmered in 150-175 degree water for several hours. So if there is a
prize to be taken for hydrolyzing esters, I certainly put that batch
of leaf through its trials and should probably win that one.
The Salvinorin from yesterdays relatively quick 180 degree F. water
extraction to powdered leaf is yet to be tested, perhaps it will show
to have the same potency of solvent extracted leaf on a milligram per
milligram basis and might have a good extraction efficiency too.
Sphere
http://www.entheogen.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000630#000003
The total amount of Salvinorin, once cleaned, extracted from this leaf
using both hot water and then the re-extraction of the powdered leaf
with 99% IPA is close to 400 milligrams, about what I normally get
with a simple 99% IPA extraction to powdered leaf. I have never had
the extract turn out so nicely from the 99% IPA extraction to the
powdered leaf before. There was far less wax needing to be removed and
a far finer fluffy Salvinorin resulted once the Naphtha was poured off
and the extract dried.
From this extraction I am beginning to believe that perhaps the best
way to extract leaf is to finely powder the leaf with a high rpm
coffee grinder and then wash the powdered leaf through three times
with cold water to remove tannins, then dry and extract using 99% IPA.
If the extract turns out this nicely every time and is as high yield
as this, I believe it would be a far superior method. You could always
save the water from the intial wash and evaporate it down as I have
done in this extraction and then try to re-extract using 99% IPA to
recover any Salvinorin which might have been lost, but if using cold
water my feeling is that the losses would be minimal, but recoverable.
So..... after all of this I have learned that hot water extractions to
powdered leaf are not so hot.... however, I found a way to have a
higher quality extraction if you water wash your powdered leaf,
squeeze through a cotton cloth (then dry) and extract with 99% IPA.
Perhaps hot water needs to be used for that water wash to duplicate
these results... I don't know yet, but my next project is to water
wash powdered leaf with cold water and then extract using 99% IPA and
see how well that goes. If it works well I will recommend it. I will
also check for Salvinorin losses to the cold water by evaporating it
down to dry tannin and extracting it again with 99% IPA.