henry's cold eye on things...
slider
one. It is not so because the world is immune to the poet's pleading,
but because the poet himself no longer believes in his divine mission.
He has been singing off-key now for a century or more; at last we can
no longer tune in. The screech of the bomb still makes sense to us,
but the rantings of the poet seems like gibberish. And it is
gibberish if, out of 2 billion people who make up the world, only a
few thousand pretend to understand what the individual poet is saying.
The cult of art reaches its end when it exists only for a precious
handful of men and women. Then it is no longer art but a cipher
language of a secret society for the propagation of meaningless
individuality.
Art is something which stirs men's passions, which gives vision,
lucidity, courage and faith. Has any artist in words of recent years
stirred the world as did Hitler? Has any poem shocked the world as
did the atomic bomb recently? Not since the coming of Christ have we
seen such vistas unfolding, multiplying daily. What weapons has the
poet compared to these? Or what dreams? Where now is his vaunted
imagination? Reality is here before our very eyes, stark naked, but
where is the song to announce it? Is there a poet of even the fifth
magnitude visible? I see none.
I do not call poets those who make verses, rhymed or unrhymed. I call
that man poet who is capable of profoundly altering the world. If
there be such a poet living in our midst, let him declare himself.
Let him raise his voice! But it will have to be a voice which can
drown the roar of the bomb. He will have to use a language which
melts men's hearts, which makes the blood bubble.
If the mission of poetry is to awaken, we ought to have been awakened
long ago. Some have been awakened, there is no denying that. But now
all men have to be awakened - and immediately - or we perish. But man
will never perish, depend on that. It is a culture, a civilisation, a
way of life which will perish. When these dead awaken, as they will,
poetry will be the very stuff of life. We can afford to lose the poet
if we are to preserve poetry itself.
It does not require paper and ink to create poetry or to disseminate
it. Primitive peoples on the whole are poets of action, poets of
life. They are still making poetry, though it moves us not. Were we
alive to the poetic, we would not be immune to their way of life, we
would have incorporated their poetry into ours, we would've infused
our lives with the beauty which permeates theirs. The poetry of the
civilised man has always been exclusive, esoteric. It has brought
about its own demise.
We must be absolutely modern said Rimbaud meaning that chimeras are
out of date, and superstitions and fetishes and creed's and dogmas and
all the cherished drivel and inanity of which our vaunted civilisation
is composed. We must bring light, not artificial illumination. What
men want is food, shelter, clothing - basic things - not money. The
rotten edifice has crumbled before our very eyes, but we are reluctant
to believe our eyes. We still hope to be able to do businesses usual.
We neither realise the damage that has been done or the possibilities
of rebirth. We are using the language of the old Stone Age.
If men cannot grasp the enormity of the present how will they ever be
able to think in terms of the future? We have been thinking in terms
of the past for several thousand years. Now at one stroke, that whole
mysterious past has been obliterated. There is only the future
staring us in the face. It yawns like a Gulf. It is terrifying,
everyone concedes, even to begin to think what the future holds in
store for us. Far more terrifying than the past ever was. In the
past the monsters were of human proportions; one could cope with them,
if one were heroic enough. Now the monster is invisible; there are
billions of them in a grain of dust. I speak as though the atom
itself were the monster, as though "it" exercised the power and not
us.
This is the sort of deception we have practised on ourselves ever
since man began to think. And this too is a delusion - to pretend that
at some distant point in the past man "began to think". Man has not
even begun to think. Mentally, he is still on all fours. He is
groping about in the Mist, his eyes closed, his heart hammering with
fear. And what he fears most - Got pity him! - is his own image.
Man was given second sight that he might see through and beyond the
world of phantasmagoria. The only effort demanded of him is that he
opens the eyes of his soul, that he gaze into the heart of reality and
not flounder about in the realm of illusion and delusion.
(from henry miller's - study of Rimbaud)
slider...
Intraphase
>
>
> Man was given second sight that he might see through and beyond the
> world of phantasmagoria. The only effort demanded of him is that he
> opens the eyes of his soul, that he gaze into the heart of reality and
> not flounder about in the realm of illusion and delusion.
>
> (from henry miller's - study of Rimbaud)
>
> slider...
The modern poet beset on all fronts and avenues as the worthless
eccentric crank of times gone by refuses to fullfill the glass of
style and the form of function required to survive in the arcane
world of derivative reproduction.
The modern poet now more than ever in the annals of human history
is a solitary soul cloistered in the obsession to etch upon his very
soul the words that shall sustain his essence in the journey that lies
ahead. Breathing in every moment as a precious opportunity to discern
the fundamental currents and structures of existence and perception.
The modern poet knows not the business of thy neighbor and family to
the exclusion of the silent consumption of all that can be seen and known,
as the rivers and chasms deepen. Until finally before the cullers and caller
of words lies the great abyss which seperates all things from each other and
grants each realm its discernments and boundary. Then the words so preciously
gained from joy and sorrow and chosen with cautious relentless passion are
loosed like lightning bolts from that which hath survived the perilous journey
to the end of all things and the beginning of nothing. Maybe none have returned,
or maybe dozens, for it is rumoured and rightly so to be a solitary lot who know
that men wisened by the council of that which is never to be known are forever
at the peril of their fellows yet walk as if protected by an a infinite
darkness known to blind even the most humble or righteous. There may be things
which should never be known without the ongoing concourse and discourse of
that which has revealed such dark final truths.
Tis such a rigid and vigorous course that must be followed by those who dare
to know this know and allow its truths to flow its flow thru their souls.
High comedy and great drama would surely follow should one turn back from the
tiny ribbonous path after revealing even a small portion of such treasure to
his fellows. The knaves goliathian efforts required to sooth the minds of the
unprotected recipients until they could once again sleep as they did before
blissfully unaware would consume all the time that might have been spent on
furthering the word and its quest for truth and justice and beauty eternal.
From "Stuff Written On The Shantytown Bathroom Walls"
Dr. Spike Speckle Phd.
Legends & Legacy
High upon-the last midnight
Where the stars-are all closed
Is called out-the words of a secret
That everyone-all ready knows
A bridge of light appears
North to south-east to west
Upon the spectrums crossing
A room of rainbows-rests on an X
A sign on a-dotted line
Warns of losing-ones immortal soul
Having taken-the final gambit
You gladly-pay the toll
If you should-return from forever
There are things-you all ways know
Heaven and hell-are but a footstep
Away from-the lonely archers bow
Follow-that tiny river
To each-island in the stream
Every thing-can be created
Just pause-and breath and dream.
:-)
Reprise RBB
Top secret stuff from deep in the labyrinth
All Is A Number
Three is for love
Four is for war
Five is life
Six is a whore
Seven is for justice
Eight is the door
Nine is forever
One is the core
Two is the law
There is nothing more
slider
I am standing in the shadows
As I leave the world behind
I don't know where I'm going
And I may have lost my mind
I've just got to keep on moving
So I struggle through the night
Lightning flashes in the rain
An eagle's maiden flight
The wind it just keeps blowing
Long cool notes of tenor sax
Discordant blues and Mingus laughing
Flaps the coats upon my back
slider (89.)
Intraphase wrote...
henry
heavenly is the mist
that we breathe
as hell is the air
that chokes our soul
between truth and belief
is a reality
of our own making
love and hate
descends upon all
that tempt fate
to abide by our chosing
live and let live
forgive and forget
that all may find
the free doom to die
for it is wisely said
that we know not
where or from
this infinity comes and goes
RBeach4960
....>Has any artist in words of recent years
>stirred the world as did Hitler? Has any poem shocked the world as
>did the atomic bomb recently? Not since the coming of Christ have we
>seen such vistas unfolding, multiplying daily. What weapons has the
>poet compared to these?
Me thinks Coltane's
"Alabama"
shock de world for all dat listen
TheRandyReverend
>To be a poet was once the highest calling; today it is the most futile
>one. It is not so because the world is immune to the poet's pleading,
>but because the poet himself no longer believes in his divine mission.
>He has been singing off-key now for a century or more; at last we can
>no longer tune in. The screech of the bomb still makes sense to us,
>but the rantings of the poet seems like gibberish. And it is
>gibberish if, out of 2 billion people who make up the world, only a
>few thousand pretend to understand what the individual poet is saying.
>The cult of art reaches its end when it exists only for a precious
>handful of men and women. Then it is no longer art but a cipher
>language of a secret society for the propagation of meaningless
>individuality.
Trying to imagine a time when to be a poet was the highest calling, Homer comes
to mind. Whether he existed or not, some say the bards he represents, those
ancient chroniclers of mythistory, spoke/sung in rhyme mainly to remember their
lines. And though they served an honored function, to educate and entertain, I
wonder if they were really examples of the highest calling of their times, or
even of great poetry.
What era might Henry have been referring to, slider? It seems to me that a
certain futility has always been associated with poetry. In attempting to sing
the song celestial, profound or mundane, one never seems to crack the shell
open with mere words. Perhaps a peek is permitted, but the nut is never freed.
Maybe in protohuman times it was enough to simply articulate feeling. Maybe
it was the protoshaman making leaps into the unknown who came back with new
means of expression, of abstraction, allowing greater communication. Maybe
that was poetry, and they the first poets on a "divine mission."
Poetry serves many purposes, at any rate, and its relevance and usefulness
flucuate. I don't think that's any more or less so today than it ever was. I
don't agree with Henry that poets have been "singing off-key now for a century
or more." To me, that's a biased assessment based on taste. To make such a
blanket statement -- including the likes of Poe, Whitman, Thomas and many other
great poets -- is more than a little arogant. Thus pigeon-holing, nay
romanticizing (god forbid!), poetry only serves to limit its scope and reduce
it to proselytizing.
Poets are poets because they are. Whether they believe in a "divine mission"
or not is irrelevant. Whether their output is deemed gibberish or not is
irrelevant. Whether they even HAVE any output is irrelevant. That they suffer
the joys and sorrows of a poetic soul is sufficient, spoken or unspoken. But
don't get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly with Henry's last two sentences --
"The cult of art reaches its end when it exists only for a precious handful of
men and women. Then it is no longer art but a cipher language of a secret
society for the propagation of meaningless individuality."
This reminds me of Carlos and company. It also reminds me of corporatization
in general -- the few kicking the stuffing out of the many in an orgy of greed.
But irregardless of all that, meaning-full individuality tapping into the seed
of all is at the bottom of poetry, and always will be.
>Art is something which stirs men's passions, which gives vision,
>lucidity, courage and faith. Has any artist in words of recent years
>stirred the world as did Hitler? Has any poem shocked the world as
>did the atomic bomb recently? Not since the coming of Christ have we
>seen such vistas unfolding, multiplying daily. What weapons has the
>poet compared to these? Or what dreams? Where now is his vaunted
>imagination? Reality is here before our very eyes, stark naked, but
>where is the song to announce it? Is there a poet of even the fifth
>magnitude visible? I see none.
Henry's mixing apples and oranges here and once again hoping for something more
to his taste to appear.
Those who can't, criticize . . .
>I do not call poets those who make verses, rhymed or unrhymed. I call
>that man poet who is capable of profoundly altering the world. If
>there be such a poet living in our midst, let him declare himself.
>Let him raise his voice! But it will have to be a voice which can
>drown the roar of the bomb. He will have to use a language which
>melts men's hearts, which makes the blood bubble.
Poor Henry, looking for a savior. Wonder what he would have thought of Carlos?
Not much of a poet, really, though he did make some folk's "blood bubble"
after he died a pitiful, painful death from liver cancer and turned out to be a
con.
>If the mission of poetry is to awaken, we ought to have been awakened
>long ago. Some have been awakened, there is no denying that. But now
>all men have to be awakened - and immediately - or we perish. But man
>will never perish, depend on that. It is a culture, a civilisation, a
>way of life which will perish. When these dead awaken, as they will,
>poetry will be the very stuff of life. We can afford to lose the poet
>if we are to preserve poetry itself.
Mr. Miller's laying on the wax a bit thick. Nice rant, but overblown. Yet
another prophet of doom and we-must-this or we-must-that. Poetry is no more
sacred nor in need of preserving than "man" or the universe. Lots of huffing
and puffing in a show of passion here, but precious little insight.
>It does not require paper and ink to create poetry or to disseminate
>it. Primitive peoples on the whole are poets of action, poets of
>life. They are still making poetry, though it moves us not. Were we
>alive to the poetic, we would not be immune to their way of life, we
>would have incorporated their poetry into ours, we would've infused
>our lives with the beauty which permeates theirs. The poetry of the
>civilised man has always been exclusive, esoteric. It has brought
>about its own demise.
Ah, the pristine primitive versus the adulterated modern, tsk, tsk. If
anything, Henry has brought about the demise of poetry in this piece simply by
his overuse of the word and its variants. And by the way, who the hell is he
to say whether or not anything moves "us"? He's obviously suffering from the
Ivory Tower Syndrome in this rant.
>We must be absolutely modern said Rimbaud meaning that chimeras are
>out of date, and superstitions and fetishes and creed's and dogmas and
>all the cherished drivel and inanity of which our vaunted civilisation
>is composed. We must bring light, not artificial illumination. What
>men want is food, shelter, clothing - basic things - not money. The
>rotten edifice has crumbled before our very eyes, but we are reluctant
>to believe our eyes. We still hope to be able to do businesses usual.
>We neither realise the damage that has been done or the possibilities
>of rebirth. We are using the language of the old Stone Age.
Piff and twaddle. We are an amalgamation of everything that has been. Lines
are artificial.
TheRandyReverend
shadow of past glories is silly.
>If men cannot grasp the enormity of the present how will they ever be
>able to think in terms of the future? We have been thinking in terms
>of the past for several thousand years. Now at one stroke, that whole
>mysterious past has been obliterated. There is only the future
>staring us in the face. It yawns like a Gulf. It is terrifying,
>everyone concedes, even to begin to think what the future holds in
>store for us. Far more terrifying than the past ever was. In the
>past the monsters were of human proportions; one could cope with them,
>if one were heroic enough. Now the monster is invisible; there are
>billions of them in a grain of dust. I speak as though the atom
>itself were the monster, as though "it" exercised the power and not
>us.
Bemoaning the present as but a shadow of future terrors is also silly.
>This is the sort of deception we have practised on ourselves ever
>since man began to think. And this too is a delusion - to pretend that
>at some distant point in the past man "began to think". Man has not
>even begun to think. Mentally, he is still on all fours. He is
>groping about in the Mist, his eyes closed, his heart hammering with
>fear. And what he fears most - God pity him! - is his own image.
Melodramatic hogwash.
>Man was given second sight that he might see through and beyond the
>world of phantasmagoria. The only effort demanded of him is that he
>opens the eyes of his soul, that he gaze into the heart of reality and
>not flounder about in the realm of illusion and delusion.
>
>(from henry miller's - study of Rimbaud)
Well that's easy for him to say. All in all, though, a good rant.
Randy
LocalFolk
Miller paraphrasing Rimbaud
"...See just how far the rabbit hole goes..."
Morpheus paraphrasing Carroll
Poetry has gained a few dimensions,
and will probably gain a few more, before
long.
What moves you moves you.
-Bear
Ether Vying
Yup. They eye of the beholder, what else?
Hey, Bear. Long time no see. Coming out of hibernation? Carbon12 just
mentioned you. Two of you delurking in the same week or so ... awesome!
:-)
EV
slider
LocalFolk wrote
"We must be absolutely modern..."
Miller paraphrasing Rimbaud
"...See just how far the rabbit hole goes..."
Morpheus paraphrasing Carroll
Poetry has gained a few dimensions,
and will probably gain a few more, before
long. What moves you moves you.
-Bear
### - what henry was saying is that whatever it is, it will first have
to overcome the roar of science (the bomb) before it will ever move
anyone these days, so focused/fixated are they upon it, and all we're
left with now being a few fancy rhymes at best which we call poetry
and bandy about like it really still meant something
i.e. what was it cc said about poets; that they (some poets) didn't
realise just what those front-runners (or scouts) could actually
accomplish? - (i'd have to go along with that one:)
from slider...
slider
TheRandyReverend wrote
>Man was given second sight that he might see through and beyond the
>world of phantasmagoria. The only effort demanded of him is that he
>opens the eyes of his soul, that he gaze into the heart of reality
and not flounder about in the realm of illusion and delusion.
>
>(from henry miller's - study of Rimbaud)
Well that's easy for him to say. All in all, though, a good rant.
### - hi guy:) - and i'm glad if this one caught your attention in
some way... imho h. miller is very powerful in his pov and outlook and
well-worth the read - plus also, and from some of your remarks and
queries, i think i can see some gaps in your education, the
presence of which i feel makes it very difficult for me to answer them
in a deserving form that wont just outrage and/or put you off from
exploring it further, if you see what i mean:)
basically miller isn't criticising anything... i.e. it's a "study" of
rimbaud the boy poet, with miller drawing on some of his own
realisations and what he feels are maybe profound instances of
similarity (to him) and also the divergences between them... (by the
way, rimbaud was the guy who "stopped" writing at 18!! - such
was his phenomenal and speedy evolution - after that he just "did" and
did and did in some of the harshest places on earth until it
eventually done him in, this in a relentless effort to overcome the
human condition;)
in that capacity i would humbly recommend 2 deceptively small books
to read; miller's study of rimbaud "the time of the assassins" as a
brilliant introduction to rimbaud - that and camus's "rebel" for a
rather illuminating history and evolution of thought and/or
philosophy - imho 2 books of inestimable value for anyone truly
interested in probing life, the universe and everything:)
we can't really criticise miller writing as he was in the 40's... but
it is possible to look for minute through his eyes and at how he sees
it etc and then draw one's own conclusions after that... he was imho
certainly a very educated man and a sincere seeker after the truth of
the human condition, with oft-times electrifying and inspiring (if not
staggering) views on life... unfortunately, he is more well known for
the graphic sex he portrays in things like tropic of capricorn and
cancer etc - (typical of this planet to seize on that particular part
of it eh:) and was totally misunderstood and rubbished accordingly by
a prudish society to whom (particularly at that time:) words like
"fuck" (your favourite i know:) and "prick" - let-alone the "C" word!!
(oh no... never that:) were never publicly spoken or written (yeah
right:) and basically because it wasn't seemly to do so...
What era might Henry have been referring to, slider?
It seems to me that a certain futility has always been
associated with poetry. In attempting to sing
the song celestial, profound or mundane, one never seems
to crack the shell open with mere words. Perhaps a peek
is permitted, but the nut is never freed.
### - i'd say miller was probably talking about the period from the
17th century up to about 150 years ago or so i guess... his "golden
age" of poetry... as for never cracking the nut i'd go along with that
being generally true, but then there is always the exception to the
rule no?
Poets are poets because they are. Whether they believe
in a "divine mission" or not is irrelevant.
### - i think miller is making a clear distinction between those types
of rhyme-type poets and the ones who can shake the planet with their
visions - the seer and the sage as opposed to the talented wordsmith
perhaps?
I do not call poets those who make verses, rhymed or unrhymed. I call
>that man poet who is capable of profoundly altering the world. If
>there be such a poet living in our midst, let him declare himself.
>Let him raise his voice! But it will have to be a voice which can
>drown the roar of the bomb. He will have to use a language which
>melts men's hearts, which makes the blood bubble.
Poor Henry, looking for a savior. Wonder what he would
have thought of Carlos?
### - i don't think henry was looking for (or expecting) a saviour,
imho he was just making (or qualifying) his statement that none now
exist, or that if they do, then they are hidden and obscure... plus in
the sense that carlos exhorted people to get beyond the mere
appearance of things, i think old henry might have applauded that one
maybe
Not much of a poet, really, though he did make some folk's
"blood bubble" after he died a pitiful, painful death from
liver cancer and turned out to be a con.
### - not necessarily... i mean rimbaud actually died of cancer of the
knee at the age of 36, (so heh, henry might have even liked that one
eh:) - plus in miller's world everyone has to die of something and
cancer is as good (and as fatal) as any i guess... also cc isn't the
first to talk about leaving this world for a better place at the point
of death or just before, plus the fact that he pointed to something
more to life and living than what we would usually deal with on a day
to day basis and to actually attempt it would imho be cool in henry's
book - i.e. henry was apparently horrified at the state of the world
and of the state of us living in it like workhouse slaves (i'm sure
for example that he would have laughed at Dan's moo-ing at the
unthinking crowd:)
Whether their output is deemed gibberish or not is
irrelevant. Whether they even HAVE any output is irrelevant.
That they suffer the joys and sorrows of a poetic soul is sufficient,
spoken or unspoken
### - perhaps this is the very difference that miller is pointing out
in making his distinction between clever rhymes and earth-moving
visions? - and perhaps also the answer to your question on miller's
poets singing off-tune etc? - i.e. that it "isn't" sufficient to just
have a poetical soul or spirit... that it has perforce to be highly
developed and to become a force and motivating principle in its own
right if it is to lead to more than not-quite cracking the nut as you
put it? - e.g. in henry's own words; the cause of which is that the
poet of today no longer believes in his own divine mission
Mr. Miller's laying on the wax a bit thick. Nice rant, but
overblown. Yet another prophet of doom and we-must-this
or we-must-that. Poetry is no more sacred nor in need of
preserving than "man" or the universe. Lots of huffing
and puffing in a show of passion here, but precious little insight
### - (smile:) - well it's not so hard to be a prophet of doom in a
dying world eh randy... plus we do seem to have been conditioned
somewhat to immediately pigeon-hole as being "prophet of doom
material" (and so to dismiss it etc) anything coming at us from along
those lines - personally i think miller is just stating a few hard
facts of life that we all already know if we were to face up to it,
but we don't, preferring (apparently) to live in hope and denial (he
called this living in delusion etc)
And by the way, who the hell is he to say whether or not
anything moves "us"? He's obviously suffering from the
Ivory Tower Syndrome in this rant.
### - imho he is speaking as the outsider and is not suffering from
anything like an Ivory Tower Syndrome as you say... but i can see
where you coming from and how it can possibly look like that, and the
fault is perhaps mine for taking miller out of context in his book -
what i'd say is that it only takes a very small alteration of your
present perspective to be standing almost exactly where Dan was
standing once mooing and laughing at the crowd that time? - plus from
that pov it's relatively easy to notice what moves and/or motivates
people (i.e. in cc's terms this would be the strange stalkers
arrangement of the world;)
Piff and twaddle. We are an amalgamation of everything
that has been. Lines are artificial.
### - i think what you saying here is that you personally don't like
them? - but lines exist whether we like them or not - for what else is
a road or a path but a line to be followed or explored if not a
line? - perhaps what you referring to (or confusing on) is cc's idea
of everything being strung together in linked lines of association
(i.e. tablecloth, spoon, fork, food, party, fiesta etc) yet he talked
also of the lines of the world and lines of sorcerers or knowledge
etc - there are also lines in language (i.e. the "context" of the
conversation) so imho it's just a matter of how you looking at it -
i.e. philosophy comes down to us along a line of development -
literature and poetry too... also history (although we can see how
that particular line's been re-worked on occasion by the victors:) -
there are various lines of thought (i.e. schools of thought) and we
can choose and/or intelligently select between them in an effort to
transcend the limitation of lines altogether at some future point in
time maybe - for example, reason reaches it's limit and climax when it
realises that something actually exists beyond the strictly rational
and that something else again is at work "beyond" reason - imho the
same goes too for philosophy in that the pinnacle of philosophy is to
realise that there "is no" philosophy, just a bunch of structured
thoughts and ideas (i.e. lines) that leads one to that very
realisation - after that one is off alone into the unknown, or at
least probing into that, and with something more than just reason per
se to do so... e.g. one has transcended the limitations of lines but
only by climbing up them to the top and then jumping off from that
into the unknown... e.g. this is the line of the intellectual climbing
all the way up to the spirit (although imho most get off the train at
an earlier station just to enjoy the view;)
slider...
TheRandyReverend
>TheRandyReverend wrote
>
>>Man was given second sight that he might see through and beyond the
>>world of phantasmagoria. The only effort demanded of him is that he
>>opens the eyes of his soul, that he gaze into the heart of reality
>>and not flounder about in the realm of illusion and delusion.
>>
>>(from henry miller's - study of Rimbaud)
>
>Well that's easy for him to say. All in all, though, a good rant.
>
>### - hi guy:) - and i'm glad if this one caught your attention in
>some way... imho h. miller is very powerful in his pov and outlook and
>well-worth the read - plus also, and from some of your remarks and
>queries, i think i can see some gaps in your education, the
>presence of which i feel makes it very difficult for me to answer them
>in a deserving form that wont just outrage and/or put you off from
>exploring it further, if you see what i mean:)
Sure, but don't worry. I know I have gaps, no problem.
>basically miller isn't criticising anything... i.e. it's a "study" of
>rimbaud the boy poet, with miller drawing on some of his own
>realisations and what he feels are maybe profound instances of
>similarity (to him) and also the divergences between them... (by the
>way, rimbaud was the guy who "stopped" writing at 18!! - such
>was his phenomenal and speedy evolution - after that he just "did" and
>did and did in some of the harshest places on earth until it
>eventually done him in, this in a relentless effort to overcome the
>human condition;)
Rimbaud sounds like Castaneda on speed, someone who met the usual and absolute
end to any such effort to overcome the human condition -- death.
>in that capacity i would humbly recommend 2 deceptively small books
>to read; miller's study of rimbaud "the time of the assassins" as a
>brilliant introduction to rimbaud - that and camus's "rebel" for a
>rather illuminating history and evolution of thought and/or
>philosophy - imho 2 books of inestimable value for anyone truly
>interested in probing life, the universe and everything:)
I'll take your recommendation and look them up.
>we can't really criticise miller writing as he was in the 40's... but
>it is possible to look for minute through his eyes and at how he sees
>it etc and then draw one's own conclusions after that... he was imho
>certainly a very educated man and a sincere seeker after the truth of
>the human condition, with oft-times electrifying and inspiring (if not
>staggering) views on life... unfortunately, he is more well known for
>the graphic sex he portrays in things like tropic of capricorn and
>cancer etc - (typical of this planet to seize on that particular part
>of it eh:) and was totally misunderstood and rubbished accordingly by
>a prudish society to whom (particularly at that time:) words like
>"fuck" (your favourite i know:) and "prick" - let-alone the "C" word!!
>(oh no... never that:) were never publicly spoken or written (yeah
>right:) and basically because it wasn't seemly to do so...
Yup, very typical. Gore Vidal comes to mind.
>What era might Henry have been referring to, slider?
>It seems to me that a certain futility has always been
>associated with poetry. In attempting to sing
>the song celestial, profound or mundane, one never seems
>to crack the shell open with mere words. Perhaps a peek
>is permitted, but the nut is never freed.
>
>### - i'd say miller was probably talking about the period from the
>17th century up to about 150 years ago or so i guess... his "golden
>age" of poetry... as for never cracking the nut i'd go along with that
>being generally true, but then there is always the exception to the
>rule no?
Perhaps, for a moment.
>Poets are poets because they are. Whether they believe
>in a "divine mission" or not is irrelevant.
>
>### - i think miller is making a clear distinction between those types
>of rhyme-type poets and the ones who can shake the planet with their
>visions - the seer and the sage as opposed to the talented wordsmith
>perhaps?
Undoubtedly, but what of them? Which of them can be said to have really made a
difference in the end? There's still only one way to overcome the human
condition.
>>I do not call poets those who make verses, rhymed or unrhymed. I call
>>that man poet who is capable of profoundly altering the world. If
>>there be such a poet living in our midst, let him declare himself.
>>Let him raise his voice! But it will have to be a voice which can
>>drown the roar of the bomb. He will have to use a language which
>>melts men's hearts, which makes the blood bubble.
>
>Poor Henry, looking for a savior. Wonder what he would
>have thought of Carlos?
>
>### - i don't think henry was looking for (or expecting) a saviour,
>imho he was just making (or qualifying) his statement that none now
>exist, or that if they do, then they are hidden and obscure... plus in
>the sense that carlos exhorted people to get beyond the mere
>appearance of things, i think old henry might have applauded that one
>maybe
Whatever. We know now what appearances Carlos was really the most interested
in people getting beyond -- his personal hypocrisy and the fact that his books
were fiction.
>Not much of a poet, really, though he did make some folk's
>"blood bubble" after he died a pitiful, painful death from
>liver cancer and turned out to be a con.
>
>### - not necessarily... i mean rimbaud actually died of cancer of the
>knee at the age of 36, (so heh, henry might have even liked that one
>eh:) - plus in miller's world everyone has to die of something and
>cancer is as good (and as fatal) as any i guess... also cc isn't the
>first to talk about leaving this world for a better place at the point
>of death or just before, plus the fact that he pointed to something
>more to life and living than what we would usually deal with on a day
>to day basis and to actually attempt it would imho be cool in henry's
>book - i.e. henry was apparently horrified at the state of the world
>and of the state of us living in it like workhouse slaves (i'm sure
>for example that he would have laughed at Dan's moo-ing at the
>unthinking crowd:)
Okay, put this way, I agree.
>Whether their output is deemed gibberish or not is
>irrelevant. Whether they even HAVE any output is irrelevant.
>That they suffer the joys and sorrows of a poetic soul is sufficient,
>spoken or unspoken
>
>### - perhaps this is the very difference that miller is pointing out
>in making his distinction between clever rhymes and earth-moving
>visions? - and perhaps also the answer to your question on miller's
>poets singing off-tune etc? - i.e. that it "isn't" sufficient to just
>have a poetical soul or spirit... that it has perforce to be highly
>developed and to become a force and motivating principle in its own
>right if it is to lead to more than not-quite cracking the nut as you
>put it? - e.g. in henry's own words; the cause of which is that the
>poet of today no longer believes in his own divine mission
Or conveys much passionate urgency, now or never, death-as-advisor, etc. I
think I see your point.
>Mr. Miller's laying on the wax a bit thick. Nice rant, but
>overblown. Yet another prophet of doom and we-must-this
>or we-must-that. Poetry is no more sacred nor in need of
>preserving than "man" or the universe. Lots of huffing
>and puffing in a show of passion here, but precious little insight
>
>### - (smile:) - well it's not so hard to be a prophet of doom in a
>dying world eh randy... plus we do seem to have been conditioned
>somewhat to immediately pigeon-hole as being "prophet of doom
>material" (and so to dismiss it etc) anything coming at us from along
>those lines - personally i think miller is just stating a few hard
>facts of life that we all already know if we were to face up to it,
>but we don't, preferring (apparently) to live in hope and denial (he
>called this living in delusion etc)
Sure, living with a bunch of crap for truth, like Imperial Chemical Industries
profiting from both causing and treating breast cancer. Just scratch the
surface anywhere these days and you'll find some pretty funny stuff lurking
below. Take the US version of Mad Cow disease that no one seems to know about
-- they don't go mad, they just fall down dead. Hilarious.
>And by the way, who the hell is he to say whether or not
>anything moves "us"? He's obviously suffering from the
>Ivory Tower Syndrome in this rant.
>
>### - imho he is speaking as the outsider and is not suffering from
>anything like an Ivory Tower Syndrome as you say... but i can see
>where you coming from and how it can possibly look like that, and the
>fault is perhaps mine for taking miller out of context in his book -
>what i'd say is that it only takes a very small alteration of your
>present perspective to be standing almost exactly where Dan was
>standing once mooing and laughing at the crowd that time? - plus from
>that pov it's relatively easy to notice what moves and/or motivates
>people (i.e. in cc's terms this would be the strange stalkers
>arrangement of the world;)
I'll remedy the out-of-context problem and get back to you.
Well put, good points. Think I may have to stop swearing at you for a while
<grin>.
Thanks for your thoughts . . .
Later,
Randy
(!)
>
> Well put, good points. Think I may have to stop swearing at you for a while
> <grin>.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts . . .
>
> Later,
> Randy
fuck off(!)
slider
TheRandyReverend wrote
>
rimbaud was the guy who "stopped" writing at 18!! - such
was his phenomenal and speedy evolution - after that he just "did" and
did and did in some of the harshest places on earth until it
eventually done him in, this in a relentless effort to overcome the
>human condition;)
Rimbaud sounds like Castaneda on speed, someone
who met the usual and absolute end to any such effort to
overcome the human condition -- death.
### - lol @ castaneda on speed:):) - and although i know what you
mean, are you saying that enlightenment therefore cannot exist until
after one is dead? - i.e. it is my understanding that so called
enlightenment is the transcending of the human condition to where one
is no longer moved by purely human concerns on the daily stage of
life... and then some:)
(oh no... never that:) were never publicly spoken or written (yeah
>right:) and basically because it wasn't seemly to do so...
Yup, very typical. Gore Vidal comes to mind.
### - you got it:)
>
### - i think miller is making a clear distinction between those types
of rhyme-type poets and the ones who can shake the planet with their
visions - the seer and the sage as opposed to the talented wordsmith
>perhaps?
Undoubtedly, but what of them? Which of them can
be said to have really made a difference in the end?
There's still only one way to overcome the human condition.
### - well buddha is still quite influential even nearly 3000 years
later no? - but i think what you saying is that only death could fully
liberate one from the conditions (limitations) of being alive in the
first place, and i could definitely go along with some of that, but
perhaps what i'm referring to is more along the lines of our present
human condition (or form) being more akin to a stage of adolescence in
our human development, comparable perhaps to the knowledge and
understanding of an average 16 year old in the world to that of a
Dalai lama or a nelson mandela even?
>
>### - plus in
the sense that carlos exhorted people to get beyond the mere
appearance of things, i think old henry might have applauded that one
>maybe
Whatever. We know now what appearances Carlos was
really the most interested in people getting beyond -- his
personal hypocrisy and the fact that his books
were fiction.
### - i have to laugh here randy... i mean, after all cc said all
along that people needed to be tricked into learning... and he
actually emphasised that over and over again thoughout his many books
and stories no?:) - i think one of the later stories i liked best was
where he describes (i.e. in one of those workshop lists or interviews
i mean) his being utterly dumbfounded at being told that everything he
was taught about yaki indians was a bunch of nonsense - don juan
telling him that cc being an anthropologist he expected
anthropological answers and so he (don juan) had just simply supplied
them:):)
also, over and over the reader is told that there are no teachings
and/or techniques to learn and that it is more a case of becoming
convinced of our own innate abilities rather than the result of any
learned steps or procedures?
then there is a whole book dedicated to what are called "core
meanings" with many obscure examples of that?:)
if one then examines cc's work in the light of the amount of ground he
actually covers (i.e. in whatever oblique ways;) in terms of a
learning curve towards the spiritual, then it actually appears rather
extensive and fairly complete, not to mention incredibly imaginative
in its form and the way it inspired serious people to actually work
very hard on themselves and to learn (ya' got to give him credit for
that one eh:) - imho the outcome of all that work still hangs in the
balance for those involved, with no-telling what results for them
personally in their own lives;)
i.e. henry was apparently horrified at the state of the world
and of the state of us living in it like workhouse slaves (i'm sure
for example that he would have laughed at Dan's moo-ing at the
>unthinking crowd:)
Okay, put this way, I agree.
### - that's it randy... (you right on the money with this, that and
exactly the way it was meant:)
that it has perforce to be highly
developed and to become a force and motivating principle in its own
right if it is to lead to more than not-quite cracking the nut as you
put it? - e.g. in henry's own words; the cause of which is that the
>poet of today no longer believes in his own divine mission
Or conveys much passionate urgency, now or never,
death-as-advisor, etc. I think I see your point.
### - and that one's well-held too:) - "X" marks the spot with this...
i think miller is just stating a few hard
facts of life that we all already know if we were to face up to it,
but we don't, preferring (apparently) to live in hope and denial (he
>called this living in delusion etc)
Sure, living with a bunch of crap for truth, like Imperial
Chemical Industries profiting from both causing and
treating breast cancer.
### - now we cookin' bro' coz again imho this is right on the money -
just hold that spot (or configuration) - you might be surprised where
that particular road can lead to apart from the rather obvious and
temporary disillusion (i.e. imho this has also been called the
"writers" pov when fully developed;)
Just scratch the surface anywhere these days and you'll
find some pretty funny stuff lurking below.
### - absolutely! - and that "is" rather the point after all... i.e.
when you catch them (society) out in "one" lie, it kinda' makes you
wonder "what else" is (or might be) a lie also? - 5% of it all
maybe? - 10%? - maybe as much as 20 or 30%? - surely not more than
that eh? - and holy shit... not ALL of it???? (nah, of course not...
never that;)
Take the US version of Mad Cow disease that no
one seems to know about -- they don't go mad, they just
fall down dead. Hilarious.
### - lol, yes that is hilarious... and if true can sadly only be the
result of a later and more-improved version of the same warfare that's
already involved perhaps? (a real bummer i know:)
> e.g. this is the line of the intellectual climbing
all the way up to the spirit (although imho most get off the train at
>an earlier station just to enjoy the view;)
Well put, good points. Think I may have to stop swearing
at you for a while <grin>.
### - (smile:) - well heh maybe we just having a day-off from the
normal routine perhaps? (grin:) - plus no doubt everything'll be back
to normal soon enough - so make hey's while the sun shines i say:) -
and go with miller's rimbaud... (i have an intuition that you might
get an enjoyable lot out of that one as a missing piece of the
jigsaw in what is an amazing picture:)
regards...
Intraphase
>
> TheRandyReverend wrote
>
> >
> rimbaud was the guy who "stopped" writing at 18!! - such
> was his phenomenal and speedy evolution - after that he just "did" and
> did and did in some of the harshest places on earth until it
> eventually done him in, this in a relentless effort to overcome the
> >human condition;)
>
> Rimbaud sounds like Castaneda on speed, someone
> who met the usual and absolute end to any such effort to
> overcome the human condition -- death.
>
> ### - lol @ castaneda on speed:):) - and although i know what you
> mean, are you saying that enlightenment therefore cannot exist until
> after one is dead? - i.e. it is my understanding that so called
> enlightenment is the transcending of the human condition to where one
> is no longer moved by purely human concerns on the daily stage of
> life... and then some:)
>
> (oh no... never that:) were never publicly spoken or written (yeah
> >right:) and basically because it wasn't seemly to do so...
>
> Yup, very typical. Gore Vidal comes to mind.
>
> ### - you got it:)
>
> >
> ### - i think miller is making a clear distinction between those types
> of rhyme-type poets and the ones who can shake the planet with their
> visions - the seer and the sage as opposed to the talented wordsmith
> >perhaps?
>
A recent read of Rimbaud site and then the viewing of a public tv
documentary cause me to suggest John Brown.
Failed at every venture until latching onto the abolition movement
eventually even convincing Thoreau that violence and war may be part
of the transition towards freedom for the slaves. After a brutal night
of violence his celebrity begins to rise after killing three men in a contested
pro-slave verses anti-slave state. After making the rounds and becoming aware
of the power of the press he decides on a 20 man raid on the federal arsenal
guarded by a single soldier. Secretly backed and financed by northerners.
Forcing the federal government to take it back by
force. During which time his belt buckle miraculously saves him from being run
through by a federal sword. On to the trial for treason and murder and the nation
in 1859 is then fully aroused and choosing up sides resulting in the very close
election of Abraham Lincoln and the ensuing war between the south and the north.
After all his failures and misdeeds his eloquence when stating the need to
resolve the question of men holding others as property/slavery and its contradiction
with the declaration of independence frames the argument once and for all for both
sides. Slaveholders seeing northeners and abolitionists as usurpers of states rights
and northeners seeing southerners as violaters of the declaration and holy bible.
Even Thoreau and all other poets and philosophers being forced to confront the question.
John Brown was a truly unremarkable failure of a man who changed history thru
fortuitous circumstance and one or two single instances of profound speech.
He did his best shtick and most revealing stuff
in the "asides" or blurbs. They show his motivation
and prime sources. He made no secret of what he
viewd as required reading to combat the "Tonal of the Times".
Maybe the mission has changed.
Maybe the infinite seeks private friendship
as opposed to the catalystic avatar types needed in
previous stages of human development.
I suggest it only as a possibility.
The divine may have a different set of operating parameters.
Finish work as opposed to ground breaking and foundations.
Had to throw in my two bits. John Brown was quite a avatar.
Rimbaud though we share a name and the same birthday is
a bit of a pansy and fading violet type.
After a raucous bit of carousing and pretense to love he slinks
off to some desert filled volcanic mountain range and bemoans his
role in creation. He should have kicked his boyfriends ass in a proper
fashion and burned his poems "copies only" in the public square
making public his self flagellation and got on with the joy of creating.
Even if he was mad for a while certainly a contribution would still be
read with interest as in the case of van gogh.
Miller seemed from the excerpts I read to have taken the best possible
lesson from Rimbauds life and extricated himself from his own self
imprisonment and got on with the business of existing and creating.
Rimbaud being so young its understandable his melodrama but sheeze,
never to find another passion or pursuit?
His imagery was quite integrated and self harmonic.
I could see why artists would fear the pollutive effect
of encountering his work as Miller did before giving it
a good look see.
slider
Maybe the mission has changed.
Maybe the infinite seeks private friendship
as opposed to the catalystic avatar types needed in
previous stages of human development.
I suggest it only as a possibility.
The divine may have a different set of operating parameters.
Finish work as opposed to ground breaking and foundations.
### - i think i can maybe see the eternal optimist at work in you here
Art?:) - plus it's a nice idea and one i could easily vibrate with by
choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
but viewed from a particular pov, our so called progress is apparently
and actually a retrograde movement, with humanity going back on itself
in a long slow decline, one that's spread over several centuries -
imho this is where rimbaud steps in to denounce it all (see his poem
bad-blood) as being only so much puffed-up posing and posturing on
behalf of the so called elite of society, savagely tearing strips off
them and casting their artless-art to the dogs - he himself then
abandoning his own writing and art - spitting and pissing on it, and
then working tirelessly from then-on in some of the most dangerous
places on earth in an effot to make a real step into and beyond the
known and so-called best of man - (i.e. he felt it necessary to
give-up the known best (e.g. art) to make an entrance into a
better-best beyond art - (a most surprising idea no?:) - and this
realisation by the tender age of 18!
Had to throw in my two bits. John Brown was quite a avatar.
Rimbaud though we share a name and the same birthday is
a bit of a pansy and fading violet type.
### - i hardly think this description of rimbaud could be correct
really... i mean, you have to understand that he deliberately made
himself "monstrous" and utterly despised society for it's apparent and
blatent hypocracy - just imagine him instead with sort of matted-hair
dreadlocks and filthy clothes... and when someone pointed out to him
once that he had all these lices running around in his head - he repli
ed (lol:) that he was cultivating them to flick at the rich, who he
felt were "so civilised" that they deserved to be boiled! - heh heh
heh:):):)
i mean, he was actually a horrible character in every respect - and
deliberately so! - for he deliberately sought to totally outcast and
estrange himself from what he perceived as a totally rotten and barren
world - and whereas mr brown was very decently freeing the slaves,
rimbaud was actually buying and selling them! - that and dealing in
hashish! - and running guns! - and many many other terrible things -
and all this in an effort to rid himself of a phoney life and a
redundant art and to break on through to another and better world
through the destruction of all that was so-called good in himself -
(the one thing we can say about rimbaud for sure is that he didn't
spare himself "whatsoever":)
After a raucous bit of carousing and pretense to love he slinks
off to some desert filled volcanic mountain range and bemoans
his role in creation.
### - i think you maybe talking about where he ended up? - because
before that (and after he abandons all art and culture) he is living
and slaving-away in some of the most dangerous place on this earth,
drug and gun-running and dealing in slaves among many things (i.e.
this planet was pretty rough 150 years ago no:)
He should have kicked his boyfriends ass in a proper
fashion and burned his poems "copies only" in the public
square making public his self flagellation and got on with the
joy of creating.
### - imho that was early-on when he got hurt a couple of times...
first by his girlfriend and then by M. verlaine - (later he took a
native wife for companionship) - but imho what rimbaud is
saying/implying is that he reached the top of art (i.e. our supposed
highest culture) and then through a process of "destruction" and not
creation he sought entrance into another complete realm of being! -
the remarkable thing about him being that by the age of 18 he had
completely finished with art and creating/writing etc and sought a
better world beyond all that - undoubtedly he could have probably
remained instead to become the most influential poet of the times
(something he would have totally despised by the way;) but instead
turned himself into a human battering-ram to better storm the gates of
heaven with! (a real holy-shit story:)
Even if he was mad for a while certainly a contribution
would still be read with interest as in the case of van gogh.
### - imho he did better than write about it... he gave us an actual
living example instead!;)
Miller seemed from the excerpts I read to have taken
the best possible lesson from Rimbauds life and extricated
himself from his own self imprisonment and got on with the
business of existing and creating.
### - i totally agree about miller in that respect - miller himself
even lamenting rimbaud's lack of maturity - but then it is precisely
this imaturity of rimbauds... this innocense and youth that knows
nothing of mature reason or its limitations that just sees the target
and then moves so powerfully and relentlessly against it and by
whatever means it takes to do so? - of course we (as big people) are
shocked and draw-back from utterly destroying the known self (i.e. the
ego) - but that is precisely what rimbaud is deploring in the world -
even in the so called world of the highest known culture on the
planet - art!:)
Rimbaud being so young its understandable his melodrama
but sheeze, never to find another passion or pursuit?
### - it's true that he lost all "worldly" passion and pursuit
(including that of art) - after all, he deliberately destroyed it in
himself in an effort to trancend what he perceived as the limitations
of it! (a darstardly plan no doubt:) - but his passion and his drive
didn't end... it just resolutely focused on another world beyond the
known and familiar world;)
His imagery was quite integrated and self harmonic.
I could see why artists would fear the pollutive effect
of encountering his work as Miller did before giving it
a good look see.
### - well we can certainly observe the effects of Rimbaud on the
young... bob dylan for one (like a rolling stone;) - and morrison for
another (i.e. when they asked morrison what he believed in - he said -
i believe in a long slow derangement of all the senses - a direct
quote from early Rimbaud;) - so yes in some ways bumping into Rimbaud
a bit later might lend itself a bit more to longevity, and perhaps a
steady flame is more enduring in some ways than a shooting star (or
meteor in the case of Rimbaud:) - but then the flash of light he made
in his race across the planet is still lighting up the sky 150 years
after he split this plane - and perhaps even more so now than ever!
(miller's idea was that we have basically spent the last 150 years
trying to "go around" Rimbaud in an effort to defer dealing with it:)
imho the key to understanding Rimbaud is in his poem "bad blood" where
he cusses-down virtually everything we as human beings hold holy -
he's very angry and he denounces them utterly with; priests, doctors,
politicians, judges (paraphrased) you are mistaken in handing me over
to justice! - the light in my eye is not the same as the light in your
eye (he then compares himself to the people of "ham" in the bible, the
outcasts, outcasts that went one way and the other lot (us) who went
another way) - he rambles on with many examples... why is it christmas
only once a year - let's have christmas every day! - let's have
christmas on earth - today! - and not wait until after we are all
"dead" for chriss-sakes! - (well, he was young:) - he rambles
passionately-on chopping everything thing down with the edge of his
hand... you lot are basically a bunch of quacks! - but know you one
thing - i will hold truth in "these" hands and in "this" lifetime and
you lot never will...
he then jumps off the edge of the world into darkest africa
(presumably to be with his people of ham - the blacks who were the
overt slaves in his time) - where apparently he went further into
(africa) than any white man before him;)
it has also been said of Rimbaud that he was possibly the first
beatnik:)
regards from slider...
Intraphase
>
> Intraphase wrote...
>
> Maybe the mission has changed.
> Maybe the infinite seeks private friendship
> as opposed to the catalystic avatar types needed in
> previous stages of human development.
> I suggest it only as a possibility.
> The divine may have a different set of operating parameters.
> Finish work as opposed to ground breaking and foundations.
>
> ### - i think i can maybe see the eternal optimist at work in you here
> Art?:) - plus it's a nice idea and one i could easily vibrate with by
> choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
>
I saved this to disk so I can repaste and answer later.
Intraphase
>
> Intraphase wrote...
>
> Maybe the mission has changed.
> Maybe the infinite seeks private friendship
> as opposed to the catalystic avatar types needed in
> previous stages of human development.
> I suggest it only as a possibility.
> The divine may have a different set of operating parameters.
> Finish work as opposed to ground breaking and foundations.
>
> ### - i think i can maybe see the eternal optimist at work in you here
> Art?:) - plus it's a nice idea and one i could easily vibrate with by
> choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
>
Eternal optimist might be a bit over the top or maybe not.
In my little brain scan program hope is the 13 idea presented.
Kind of speaks for itself. Compared to the past much progress has been made.
But there are surely glaring holes and atrocities ongoing as we converse.
Burma comes to mind. In our neck of the woods Mexico has its first
democratically elected president from the opposition party in fifty years.
Excessive optimism is also a distinctly american trait. Then comes the inevitable
let down whether its success or failure from an emotional high. That's the yankee
way. Get stoned on some activity then rest on your laurels until shamed
into the next national obsession.
> but viewed from a particular pov, our so called progress is apparently
> and actually a retrograde movement, with humanity going back on itself
> in a long slow decline,
I don't doubt that argument can be made. But do you imply return to a more
humane and sane approach between people as in periods from the past
or a negative connotation regarding destruction of the planetary
environment.
>one that's spread over several centuries -
> imho this is where rimbaud steps in to denounce it all (see his poem
> bad-blood)
http://www.gacq.com/lazaro/enfer.html
>as being only so much puffed-up posing and posturing on
> behalf of the so called elite of society, savagely tearing strips off
> them and casting their artless-art to the dogs - he himself then
> abandoning his own writing and art - spitting and pissing on it, and
> then working tirelessly from then-on in some of the most dangerous
> places on earth in an effot to make a real step into and beyond the
> known and so-called best of man
I follow up to here. The disgust and desire to move on.
- (i.e. he felt it necessary to
> give-up the known best (e.g. art) to make an entrance into a
> better-best beyond art - (a most surprising idea no?:)
Yes and no. For most yes. Pursue art long enough and the beast
turns and fights you to the death. Life before art could sum up the
conclusion of that battle if the artist is successful.
Which your argument implies. I agree in the abstract.
But with such a person there would be secondary and tertiary
rationalizations. The poem implies so much of that vein.
Alternately there are moments of grace-universal equilibrium.
Sometimes more, as you say above with reserve and eloquence
concerning and regarding interaction/interactive.
- and this
> realisation by the tender age of 18!
>
> Had to throw in my two bits. John Brown was quite a avatar.
> Rimbaud though we share a name and the same birthday is
> a bit of a pansy and fading violet type.
>
> ### - i hardly think this description of rimbaud could be correct
> really... i mean, you have to understand that he deliberately made
> himself "monstrous"
An adolescent trait to extreme. It seemed from the limited
biography that some people thought highly of him in his own time.
But understood he could not be swayed, example being forcefully returned
after an outing or two, to his home by the gendarmes.
>and utterly despised society for it's apparent and
> blatent hypocracy - just imagine him instead with sort of matted-hair
> dreadlocks and filthy clothes... and when someone pointed out to him
> once that he had all these lices running around in his head - he repli
> ed (lol:) that he was cultivating them to flick at the rich, who he
> felt were "so civilised" that they deserved to be boiled! - heh heh
> heh:):):)
>
Wealth envy. Beyond that he made the best of anything it would seem.
Even the irritation of lice and the insults they drew.
> i mean, he was actually a horrible character in every respect - and
> deliberately so!
Yes his debauchery was deliberate and well entered into.
He pursued it as an art form.
> for he deliberately sought to totally outcast and
> estrange himself from what he perceived as a totally rotten and barren
> world -
The times were difficult. Napoleon having declared himself emperor of
the world is unable to be killed in battle and must accept imprisonment.
Reading the history of the times the parallels between Napoleons behavior
and Rimbauds own attitudes seem striking. I'm reading as I'm replying
using dates on yahoo so the poems significance seems very apropos of
what "N" must have been feeling. I do believe from previous post that you
are of the school of thought that believes environment is a key influence.
In overview he was a mantled "Man of His Times " yet the whole construct
of the french revolution is being betrayed. First by the french accepting "N"
then by "N"'s very defeat.
Rimbaud off to exile as napoleon is off to exile.
Rimbaud defeated in his quest for truth using art as his weaponry
turning from the battlefield to seek a alternate route.
>and whereas mr brown was very decently freeing the slaves,
> rimbaud was actually buying and selling them!
It was pure opportunism there was no deeper calling. If there was it
was the part of the divine which forments change and chooses between the
lesser of two evils-devil-in short he was a cold blooded killer a
successful version of charles manson.
That's why I mentioned him as an interesting character study
Like Rimbaud a catalyst. A far lesser artistic light to be sure.
>- that and dealing in
> hashish! - and running guns! - and many many other terrible things -
> and all this in an effort to rid himself of a phoney life and a
> redundant art and to break on through to another and better world
> through the destruction of all that was so-called good in himself -
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom". A french phrase
possibly. Not sure.
> (the one thing we can say about rimbaud for sure is that he didn't
> spare himself "whatsoever":)
>
No he led a life.
> After a raucous bit of carousing and pretense to love he slinks
> off to some desert filled volcanic mountain range and bemoans
> his role in creation.
>
> ### - i think you maybe talking about where he ended up? - because
> before that (and after he abandons all art and culture) he is living
> and slaving-away in some of the most dangerous place on this earth,
> drug and gun-running and dealing in slaves among many things (i.e.
> this planet was pretty rough 150 years ago no:)
>
Yes very true. The biography mentions a undisclosed change of perspective
from the start of college at 11 and then erupting at 15 yrs. of age.
If he was at a religious university he may have encountered
directly or indirectly the sexualization of children
or possibly the new awareness of same sex relationships whether
by his elders or his peers.
It begins his need for expression because at 15 he begins to
write for himself as opposed to schoolwork poems.
But yes life was far more brutal.
Thirty nine is not an unrespectable age to reach then.
Probably the average or slightly above.
Imagine a world with out anti-biotics, although some knew about
moldy breads.
> He should have kicked his boyfriends ass in a proper
> fashion and burned his poems "copies only" in the public
> square making public his self flagellation and got on with the
> joy of creating.
>
> ### - imho that was early-on when he got hurt a couple of times...
> first by his girlfriend and then by M. verlaine - (later he took a
> native wife for companionship) - but imho what rimbaud is
> saying/implying is that he reached the top of art (i.e. our supposed
> highest culture) and then through a process of "destruction" and not
> creation he sought entrance into another complete realm of being! -
I see your point and it is a sound argument.
The underlying psychology that we in later years
might speculate on as is the custom in our era is obscured
by a lack of witness and his own lack of having penned an autobiography
or having co-operated with someone had there been enough interest.
The pivot event that starts his disgust is probably multiple.
Some of it college, some frances own capitulation after having
failed at a war they sought and provoked. The catholic imagery is
quite strong in that poem too as a vernacular he easily thinks in and
launches into as a means of communicating with the reader.
Plus there seem to be that first true love rush which there wasn't much
available on. But is easy to imagine :-)
Any judgment of him of course tempered by his age, and brilliance
not withstanding
> the remarkable thing about him being that by the age of 18 he had
> completely finished with art and creating/writing etc and sought a
> better world beyond all that - undoubtedly he could have probably
> remained instead to become the most influential poet of the times
Yes there would be great torment in something like that for him.
His work almost requires him to do what he later did.
Having the intended or unintended consequence of elevating him to legend
status as the years go on.
The way I heard the story he "Disappeared never to be heard of again"
Implying he vanished in a puff of smoke or was dispatched by the roadside
anonymously or was lost in the woods.
> (something he would have totally despised by the way;) but instead
> turned himself into a human battering-ram to better storm the gates of
> heaven with! (a real holy-shit story:)
>
The first commandment jesus gave was the royal commandment
THE ROYAL COMMANDMENT
The most important of all of the
commandments is this: You will
love the Lord your God with all
your heart, and with all your
soul, and with all your mind, and
with all your strength.
Implying that it supersedes the second
Let the second commandment be: You will love your neighbor as you love yourself.
This is my commandment: That you love one another as I have loved you! There are no
commandments greater than these. No one possesses greater love than the one who
is willing to lay down his life for his friends!
Under these marching orders, a phrase he closes with in the poem.
It is easily understood that he would prefer to beat down the gates
of heaven than sit around wondering if it exists.
With such ferocity one might actually succeed.
Obviously reading the autobiography would supply more
information but his motivations seem abundant.
The bible being the sorcerers handbook of choice
even to this day for convoluting the "Rigid verses flexible"
as Gander might say.
That first commandment does imply what it implies as far as
sorcery is concerned. Full on battle as any love affair is.
Back to your earliest comment, it is better to be the pursued
than pursuer in such a relationship because then the obligation
of proof is on the other party. Which you sort of touched on.
Which allows the first to be followed without negating the second.
Starting to sound like jr. counsel at satan,satan Beelzebub and hossatanus.
That's a jewish law firm I believe :-)
> Even if he was mad for a while certainly a contribution
> would still be read with interest as in the case of van gogh.
>
> ### - imho he did better than write about it... he gave us an actual
> living example instead!;)
>
At least he wrote what he did.
Early on when first in paris he gave another poet 22 copies
of his poems the total of his transcription. A fear of never
having his work exposed due to unfortunate circumstance possibly.
> Miller seemed from the excerpts I read to have taken
> the best possible lesson from Rimbauds life and extricated
> himself from his own self imprisonment and got on with the
> business of existing and creating.
>
> ### - i totally agree about miller in that respect - miller himself
> even lamenting rimbaud's lack of maturity - but then it is precisely
> this imaturity of rimbauds... this innocense and youth that knows
> nothing of mature reason or its limitations that just sees the target
> and then moves so powerfully and relentlessly against it
Yes the black and white portrait pulled out of and and then pushed back
into the color background. Akin to pushing a rod thru a coil to produce a charge
>and by
> whatever means it takes to do so? - of course we (as big people) are
> shocked and draw-back from utterly destroying the known self (i.e. the
> ego)
It is o.k. if practiced with caution and the known self is stored
for retrieval. A different subject but I get the gist of what you say.
>- but that is precisely what rimbaud is deploring in the world -
> even in the so called world of the highest known culture on the
> planet - art!:)
>
Quite a declaration is "lettre du voyant" (May
15)
> Rimbaud being so young its understandable his melodrama
> but sheeze, never to find another passion or pursuit?
>
> ### - it's true that he lost all "worldly" passion and pursuit
> (including that of art) - after all, he deliberately destroyed it in
> himself in an effort to trancend what he perceived as the limitations
> of it! (a darstardly plan no doubt:)
He may also have known that he had produced something
which if preserved would stand on its own.
Had the foresight to leave the ring before he gets
knocked out as just another champ instead of the undefeated.
>- but his passion and his drive
> didn't end... it just resolutely focused on another world beyond the
> known and familiar world;)
>
Are these explored by his autobiographers?
A 1995 movie was made of his life but the web pages show mixed reviews
Said Ann Rice based her popular LaStait vampire character on him.
Saw "Interview With The Vampire" which was pretty entertaining.
> His imagery was quite integrated and self harmonic.
> I could see why artists would fear the pollutive effect
> of encountering his work as Miller did before giving it
> a good look see.
>
> ### - well we can certainly observe the effects of Rimbaud on the
> young... bob dylan for one (like a rolling stone;)
Magor influence for Dylan by his own account.
'Everything is gonna be better, when I paint my masterpiece"
- and morrison for
> another (i.e. when they asked morrison what he believed in - he said -
> i believe in a long slow derangement of all the senses - a direct
> quote from early Rimbaud;)
Morrison was a complete thief. A different type of artist
Yet the same desire to turn the world upside down.
- so yes in some ways bumping into Rimbaud
> a bit later might lend itself a bit more to longevity,
I think so. I knew the basics of his life from an anecdote here and there.
>and perhaps a
> steady flame is more enduring in some ways than a shooting star
There are many forms of art though on the other hand.
Its a cliché but the artist creates because he must.
If Rimbaud took that to be the path he followed-action, then
that fits still in his previous definitions
>(or
> meteor in the case of Rimbaud:) - but then the flash of light he made
> in his race across the planet is still lighting up the sky 150 years
> after he split this plane -
His blatant faustian rantings have played no small part.
Most people as he cites in that letter mentioned never examine themselves.
Its the old cliché. "The unexamined life is barely worth living"
I knew that cliché a long time before it rang true.
Was my brief 2 yr. passage through rehabs and 12 step villages with
their insistence personal inventory/recapitualation.
>and perhaps even more so now than ever!
> (miller's idea was that we have basically spent the last 150 years
> trying to "go around" Rimbaud in an effort to defer dealing with it:)
>
Not me bro. Its do I have the skill or desire to translate
or step down the intensity of my understanding and the pieces I
have created. Is there a propitious moment to capitalize blatantly
on my own interpretive constructs. The whole controlled folly verse
masterful folly calculus and divination. Or as the pointy shoed devil
of thames says "To be or not to be"
Or to simply keep what I have and go sell cars or collect trash
from the back of a truck. One thing I know from my own developing
experience is that a body of work becomes a form of identity.
A set of circuits "Within and Without" J.L.
Were discussing Rimbaud because he put pen to paper not because he could
out drink or out fuck or out adventure us. " Aye there's the rub"
> imho the key to understanding Rimbaud is in his poem "bad blood" where
> he cusses-down virtually everything we as human beings hold holy -
I liked that one. I sensed him laughing out loud as he wrote it.
The sheer joy of expressing in one burst-I suspect he wrote that way-
all the feelings that had knotted together from many experiences and
exposures. The hypocrisy of the french trashing freedom for an emperor.
The desire to serve is in us all I guess to some degree or another
even if its just a pet or helping a turtle of the road.
> he's very angry and he denounces them utterly with; priests, doctors,
> politicians, judges (paraphrased) you are mistaken in handing me over
> to justice! - the light in my eye is not the same as the light in your
> eye (he then compares himself to the people of "ham" in the bible,
Yes. His understanding of the bibles complexities and subtleties verses
the dullards and functionaries who run the church coupled to the french
peoples betrayal of freedom by supporting napoleon.
>the
> outcasts, outcasts that went one way and the other lot (us) who went
> another way) - he rambles on with many examples... why is it christmas
> only once a year - let's have christmas every day! - let's have
> christmas on earth - today! - and not wait until after we are all
> "dead" for chriss-sakes! - (well, he was young:) -
I thought it was the best the rambling. He could be any young person
throwing a rant on the internet today whose doing it with facts passion
and conviction
>he rambles
> passionately-on chopping everything thing down with the edge of his
> hand... you lot are basically a bunch of quacks! - but know you one
> thing - i will hold truth in "these" hands and in "this" lifetime and
> you lot never will...
>
Yes he had his work. The Word... as it lived in that moment delivered
by the devil itself-divine anger. Shaped and interpreted by his own heart.
> he then jumps off the edge of the world into darkest africa
> (presumably to be with his people of ham - the blacks who were the
> overt slaves in his time) - where apparently he went further into
> (africa) than any white man before him;)
>
He was a true zealot in the original sense of following thru on ones conviction
> it has also been said of Rimbaud that he was possibly the first
> beatnik:)
>
The elusive fifth beatle maybe :-)
> regards from slider...
> ### - i think i can maybe see the eternal optimist at work in you here
> Art?:) - plus it's a nice idea and one i could easily vibrate with by
> choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
I once heard a good quote about dylan regarding his 1988 "Oh Mercy"
album. " Reckless Imagination " another way of saying divine spark.
I guess I know Rimbaud thru dylan or horror-scope 10/20 libri.
>and one i could easily vibrate with by
> choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
All superlatives are merely quaint artifacts
compared to the processing power of the infinite.
It knows fifty million possible things we both shall
be doing exactly five years from now. Retaining a
strategy for each should it decide to interfere/intervene.
The biblical "Every hair on your head is accounted for"
So many modalities. "There is a time appointed for each thing"
The question is who created more purely "Catholic-Orthodox"
sorcerers Rimbaud & Dylan Or Carlos & Slider. :-)
Thx
BAD BLOOD-RIMBAUD
From my ancestors the Gauls I have pale blue eyes, a narrow brain, and awkwardness in
competition. I think my clothes are as barbaric as theirs. But I don't butter my hair.
The Gauls were the most stupid hide-flayers and hay-burners of their time.
From them I inherit: idolatry, and love of sacrelige-- oh, all sorts of vice; anger, lechery--
terrific stuff, lechery-- lying, above all, and laziness.
I have a horror of all trades and crafts. Bosses and workers, all of them peasants, and
common. The hand that holds the pen is as good as the one that holds the plow. (What a
century for hands!) I'll never learn to use my hands. And then, domesticity goes too far. The
propriety of beggary shames me. Criminals are as disgusting as men without balls; I'm intact,
and I don't care.
But who has made my tongue so treacherous, that until now it has counseled and kept me in
idleness? I have not used even my body to get along. Out-idling the sleepy toad, I have lived
everywhere. There's not one family in Europe that I don't know. Families, I mean, like mine,
who owe their existence to the Declaration of the Rights of Man. I have known each family's
eldest son!
If only I had a link to some point in the history of France!
But instead, nothing.
I am well aware that I have always been of an inferior race. I cannot understand revolt. My
race has never risen, except to plunder; to devour like wolves a beast they did not kill.
I remember the history of France, the Eldest Daughter of the Church. I would have gone, a
village serf, crusading to the Holy Land; my head is full of roads in the Swabian plains, of the
sight of Byzantium, of the ramparts of Jerusalem; the cult of Mary, the pitiful thought of Christ
crucified, turns in my head with a thousand profane enchantments-- I sit like a leper among
broken pots and nettles, at the foot of a wall eaten away by the sun. --And later, a wandering
mercenary, I would have bivouacked under German nighttimes.
Ah! one thing more: I dance the Sabbath in a scarlet clearing, with old women and children.
I don't remember much beyond this land, and Christianity. I will see myself forever in its past.
But always alone, without a family; what language, in fact, did I used to speak? I never see
myself in the councils of Christ; nor in the councils of the Lords, Christ's representatives.
What was I in the century past? I only find myself today. The vagabonds, the hazy wars are
gone. The inferior race has swept over all-- the People (as they put it), Reason; Nation and
Science.
Ah, Science! Everything is taken from the past. For the body and the soul-- the last
sacrament-- we have Medicine and Philosophy, household remedies and folk songs
rearrainged. And royal entertainments, and games that kings forbid. Geography, Cosmography,
Mechanics, Chemistry!...
Science, the new nobility! Progress! The world moves!... And why shouldn't it?
We have visions of numbers. We are moving toward the Spirit. What I say is oracular and
absolutely right. I understand... and since I cannot express myself except in pagan terms, I
would rather keep quiet.
Pagan blood returns! The Spirit is at hand... why does Christ not help me, and grant my soul
nobility and freedom? Ah, but the Gospel belongs to the past! The Gospel. The Gospel...
I wait gluttinously for God. I have been of an inferior race for ever and ever.
And now I am on the beaches of Brittany.... Let cities light their lamps in the evening; my
daytime is done, I am leaving Europe. The air of the sea will burn my lungs; lost climates will
turn my skin to leather. To swim, to pulverize grass, to hunt, above all to smoke; to drink
strong drinks, as strong as molten ore, as did those dear ancestors around their fires.
I will come back with limbs of iron, with dark skin, and angry eyes; in this mask, they will
think I belong to a strong race. I will have gold; I will be brutal and indolent. Women nurse
these ferocious invalids come back from the tropics. I will become involved in politics. Saved.
Now I am accursed, I detest my native land. The best thing is a drunken sleep, stretched out
on some strip of shore.
But no one leaves. Let us set out once more on our native roads, burdened with my vice-- that
vice that since the age of reason has driven roots of suffering into my side-- that towers to
heaven, beats me, hurls me down, drags me on.
Ultimate innocence, final timidity. All's said. Carry no more my loathing and treacheries before
the world.
Come on! Marching, burdens, the desert, boredom and anger.
Hire myself to whom? What beasts adore? What sacred images destroy? What hearts shall I
break? What lie maintain? Through what blood wade?
Better to keep away from justice. A hard life, outright stupor-- with a dried-out fist to lift the
coffin lid, lie down, and suffocate. No old age this way-- no danger: terror is very un-French.
--Ah! I am so forsaken I will offer at any shrine impulses toward perfection.
Oh, my self-denial, my marvelous Charity, my Selfless love! And still here below!
De profundis, Dominie... what an ass I am!
When I was still a little child, I admired the hardened convict on whom the prison door will
always close; I used to visit the bars and the rented rooms his presence had consecrated; I
saw with his eyes the blue sky and the flower-filled work of the fields; I followed his fatal scent
through city streets. He had more strength than the saints, more sense than any explorer--
and he, he alone! was witness to his glory and his rightness.
Along the open road on winter nights, homeless, cold, and hungry, one voice gripped my
frozen heart: "Weakness or strength: you exist, that is strength.... You don't know where you
are going or why you are going; go in everywhere, answer everyone. No one will kill you, any
more than if you were a corpse." In the morning my eyes were so vacant and my face so dead
that the people I met may not even have seen me.
In cities, mud went suddenly red and black, like a mirror when a lamp in the next room
moves, like treasure in the forest! Good luck, I cried, and I saw a sea of flames and smoke rise
to heaven, and left and right all wealth exploded like a billion thunderbolts.
But orgies and the companionship of women were impossible for me. Not even a friend. I saw
myself before an angry mob, facing a firing squad, weeping out sorrows they could not
understand, and pardoning-- like Joan of Arc!-- "Priests, professors and doctors, you are
mistaken in delivering me into the hands of the law. I have never been one of you; I have
never been a Christian; I belong to the race that sang on the scaffold; I do not understand
your laws; I have no moral sense; I am a brute; you are making a mistake...."
Yes, my eyes are closed to your light. I am an animal, a nigger. But I can be saved. You are
fake niggers; maniacs, savages, misers, all of you. Businessman, you're a nigger; judge, you're
a nigger; general, you're a nigger; emperor, old scratch-head, you're a nigger: you've drunk a
liquor no one taxes, from Satan's still. This nation is inspired by fever and cancer. Invalids and
old men are so respectable that they ask to be boiled. The best thing is to quit this continent
where madness prowls, out to supply hostages for these wretches. I will enter the true
kingdom of the sons of Ham.
Do I understand nature? Do I understand myself? No more words! I shroud dead men in my
stomach.... Shouts, drums, dance, dance, dance! I can't even imagine the hour when the
white men land, and I will fall into nothingness.
Thirst and hunger, shouts, dance, dance, dance!
The white men are landing! Cannons! Now we must be baptized, get dressed, and go to work.
My heart has been stabbed by grace. Ah! I hadn't thought this would happen.
But I haven't done anything wrong. My days will be easy, and I will be spared repentance. I
will not have had the torments of the soul half-dead to the Good, where austure light rises
again like funeral candles. The fate of a first-born son, a premature coffin covered with shining
tears. No doubt, perversion is stupid, vice is stupid; rottenness must always be cast away. But
the clock must learn to strike more than hours of pure pain! Am I to be carried away like a
child, to play in paradise, forgetting all this misery?
Quick! Are there any other lives? Sleep for the rich is impossible. Wealth has always lived
openly. Divine love alone confers the keys of knowledge. I see that nature is only a show of
kindness. Farewell chimeras, ideals and errors.
The reasonable song of angels rises from the rescue ship: it is divine love. Two loves! I may
die of earthly love, die of devotion. I have left behind creatures whose grief will grow at my
going. You choose me from among the castaways; aren't those who remain my friends?
Save them!
I am reborn in reason. The world is good. I will bless life. I will love my brothers. There are no
longer childhood promises. Nor the hope of escaping old age and death. God is my strength,
and I praise God.
Boredom is no longer my love. Rage, perversion, madness, whose every impulse and disaster I
know-- my burden is set down entire. Let us appraise with clear heads the extent of my
innocence. I am no longer able to ask for the consolation of a beating. I don't imagine I'm off
on a honeymoon with Jesus Christ as my father-in-law.
I am no prisoner of my own reason. I have said: God. I want freedom, within salvation: how
shall I go about it? A taste for frivolity has left me. No further need for divine love or for
devotion to duty. I do not regret the age of emotion and feeling. To each his own reason,
contempt, Charity: I keep my place at the top of the angelic ladder of good sense.
As for settled happiness, domestic or not... no, I can't. I am too dissipated, too weak. Work
makes life blossom, an old idea, not mine; my life doesn't weigh enough, it drifts off and floats
far beyond action, that third pole of the world.
What an old maid I'm turning into, to lack the courage to love death!
If only God would grant me that celestial calm, etherial calm, and prayer-- like the saints of
old. --The Saints! They were strong! Anchorites, artists of a kind we no longer need....
Does this farce have no end? My innocence is enough to make me cry. Life is the farce we all
must play.
Stop it! This is your punishment.... Forward march!
Ah! my lungs burn, my temples roar! Night rolls in my eyes, beneath this sun! My heart... my
arms and legs....
Where are we going? To battle? I am weak! the others go on ahead... tools, weapons... give me
time!
Fire! Fire at me! Here! or I'll give myself up! --Cowards! --I'll kill myself! I'll throw myself
beneath the horses' hooves!
Ah!...
--I'll get used to it.
That would be the French way, the path of honor!
slider
Intraphase wrote
>
### - i think i can maybe see the eternal optimist at work in you here
Art?:) - plus it's a nice idea and one i could easily vibrate with by
> choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
>
Eternal optimist might be a bit over the top or maybe not.
In my little brain scan program hope is the 13 idea
presented. Kind of speaks for itself. Compared to the
past much progress has been made.
### - that depends on one's interpretation of the term progress no? -
i.e. the question being is it a progress in destroying or creating
that it refers to...
But there are surely glaring holes and atrocities ongoing
as we converse. Burma comes to mind. In our neck of the
woods Mexico has its first democratically elected
president from the opposition party in fifty years.
### - i take it then to mean that you are of the school of thought
that sees progress as being synonymous with creating?
Excessive optimism is also a distinctly american trait.
Then comes the inevitable let down whether its success or
failure from an emotional high. That's the yankee
way. Get stoned on some activity then rest on your laurels
until shamed into the next national obsession.
### - basically (and imho) that's only a standard sociological
coercion method/ploy perfected over centuries and currently
championed, condoned and enforced (in this case) by the states...
that and merely a variation of an older and well-practised/played-out
theme
but viewed from a particular pov, our so called progress is apparently
and actually a retrograde movement, with humanity going back
on itself in a long slow decline,
>
I don't doubt that argument can be made. But do you imply
return to a more humane and sane approach between people
as in periods from the past or a negative connotation regarding
destruction of the planetary environment.
### - they paved paradise and put up a parking-lot? - at least, that
is the undeniable progress/destruction i see going on all around me,
plus i can't see it suddenly changing direction away from that
really... the only question being will humanity survive it, and if so,
what kind of humanity will it be when nature itself has been bottled
and sold (and probably exported to mars:) in easy-open packs or
something (heh i too can be cynical eh:) - on the other hand, if you
of the school that sees progress in the positive and so believes that
progress so-called will eventuate in the liberation of mankind via and
through its own scientific technology, then i could accept that
(although exactly how the building of ever more securer prisons will
ever result in a final liberation is beyond me - although strangely
enough the film the great escape is on today over here:) - i mean,
we've already had several french revolutions in various forms and it
just don't work beyond a point;)
(see his poem bad-blood)
http://www.gacq.com/lazaro/enfer.html
>- he himself then
abandoning his own writing and art - spitting and pissing on it, and
then working tirelessly from then-on in some of the most dangerous
places on earth in an effort to make a real step into and beyond the
> known and so-called best of man
I follow up to here. The disgust and desire to move on.
### - disgust can be very useful... (even neitzche said that - sartre
too with his book "nausea";) - the real question being; just what does
it take for a man to have finally "had enough" and so desire/decide to
move-on and away from the whole godamn mess!:) - imho a useful film in
this respect is micky roark's "prayer for the dying" in which this is
more fully explored... the story commencing at the point where (for
one good reason or another) he's "had-enough" of the life he was
living (a total surprise to him in this story as it goes:) and so he
becomes determined to find another way - that is, if life doesn't
already have other plans for him;)
- (i.e. he felt it necessary to
> give-up the known best (e.g. art) to make an entrance into a
> better-best beyond art - (a most surprising idea no?:)
Yes and no. For most yes. Pursue art long enough and
the beast turns and fights you to the death. Life before
art could sum up the conclusion of that battle if the artist
is successful.
### - i see where you coming from... and i agree, but only if you
accept that if the artist you describe is successful, he will of
course no longer be merely the artist/communicator - but the artist of
life itself! - i.e. his "life" becomes his art - he becomes the
"living-art" - the poetry in motion - the walking contradiction! - and
seeing as he isn't a patron or a seller of the arts, his only
objective then... is to "live it";)
> Rimbaud though we share a name and the same birthday is
> a bit of a pansy and fading violet type.
>
### - i hardly think this description of rimbaud could be correct
really... i mean, you have to understand that he deliberately made
> himself "monstrous"
An adolescent trait to extreme. It seemed from the limited
biography that some people thought highly of him in his
own time. But understood he could not be swayed,
example being forcefully returned after an outing or two,
to his home by the gendarmes.
### - heh, he was a rascal and the epitome of the rebel type - and so
hardly the shrinking-violet and pansy type you before described eh:)
> he replied (lol:) that he was cultivating them to flick
at the rich, who he felt were "so civilised" that they deserved
to be boiled! - heh heh heh:):):)
>
Wealth envy. Beyond that he made the best of anything
it would seem. Even the irritation of lice and the insults
they drew.
### - well i dunno about the wealth envy etc, but agreed on the making
best of everything that occurs... (his endless search for gold only
confusing the matter perhaps?:)
i mean, he was actually a horrible character in every respect - and
> deliberately so!
Yes his debauchery was deliberate and well entered into.
He pursued it as an art form.
### - agreed:) - that is if you accept this "deliberateness" of
rimbaud, that and the fact that he didn't spare himself whatsoever (in
fact deliberately placing himself in danger) in an effort to totally
destroy the completely socialised/civilised part of himself... a man
of vision and the courage of his convictions..
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom". A
french phrase possibly. Not sure.
### - and well explored by sade and baudilare no doubt (baudilarie was
rimbauds hero/master:)
(the one thing we can say about rimbaud for sure is that he didn't
> spare himself "whatsoever":)
>
No he led a life.
### - in nietzsche's terms rimbaud raised his demon of disgust until
it became monstrous (i.e. meaning huge and prodigious:)
It begins his need for expression because at 15 he begins to
write for himself as opposed to schoolwork poems.
But yes life was far more brutal.
### - in one of his poems he describes how at the age of 12 he
"illustrated the human comedy" - (i.e. he wasn't called the boy genius
for nothing eh:)
Thirty nine is not an unrespectable age to reach then.
Probably the average or slightly above.
Imagine a world with out anti-biotics, although some
knew about moldy breads.
### - heh, and now all we know about is moldy old dough eh:) - plus i
dunno, i mean, i had this argument out with our little lady-friend
buttmark (much to her disgust;) about antibiotics etc and about how we
(as a species i mean) might have still had an undamaged immune system
without the advent of antibiotics? - a hard argument i know, and one
of the ones that rather sides with progress so called as being a form
of destruction...
Any judgment of him of course tempered by his age, and
brilliance not withstanding
### - it is said that he completely used-up the total resources of art
and culture in 3 short years! (i.e. everyone is particularly good at
something and that was his forte perhaps - he was a genius at it in
fact:)
>
the remarkable thing about him being that by the age of 18 he had
completely finished with art and creating/writing etc and sought a
better world beyond all that - undoubtedly he could have probably
remained instead to become the most influential poet of the times
>
Yes there would be great torment in something like that
for him. His work almost requires him to do what he later did.
Having the intended or unintended consequence of
elevating him to legend status as the years go on.
### - imho i don't think there was any "almost" about it... i.e. he
saw what he had to do (or needed to be done) and then merely got on
with the job of seeing it through to the end - plus how very revealing
that his earthly fame and (actually most) hero-status revolves
somewhat around this simple concept of seeing something through to the
end no matter what eh;)
The way I heard the story he "Disappeared never to be
heard of again" Implying he vanished in a puff of smoke or
was dispatched by the roadside
anonymously or was lost in the woods.
### - even the french were raising a statue of him as the unknown
genius boy poet who had died when he was 19 (ironically rimbaud was
actually dying at the age of 37/38 as they erected this;)
No one possesses greater love than the one who
is willing to lay down his life for his friends!
Under these marching orders, a phrase he closes with
in the poem. It is easily understood that he would prefer
to beat down the gates of heaven than sit around
wondering if it exists.
### - (smile:) - ahhh the impatience and folly of youth eh:) - at
least, that's how we tend to see it as the rather already-sedated
persons we are no? - but then perhaps our energies have already been
diverted off into other more worldly pursuits instead eh? - and now we
all too tired and entrenched to ever look up again, let alone pursue
something else and start-over from new exploring beyond the familiar
known, except as an empty and idle speculation that is...
With such ferocity one might actually succeed.
### - agreed - but then isn't that the point? - i.e. his intent was
impeccable:)
Obviously reading the autobiography would supply more
information but his motivations seem abundant.
The bible being the sorcerers handbook of choice
even to this day for convoluting the "Rigid verses flexible"
as Gander might say.
### - my way out of that was to imagine (like miller) 50 rimbauds let
loose in the world... i.e. not all of them would have ended-up exactly
where the original rimbaud did - or if they did, then the many roads
leading to that eventuality would have been more illuminating
perhaps - but assuming he actually made it across (i.e. to holding
truth in "these" hands and in "this" lifetime etc) we still have his
gruelling example and his impeccable intent to consider and to ponder
with awe... that is before deciding to take up the cloth so to speak
and to attempt to carry on then from where he left off maybe?
(miller's concept:)
That first commandment does imply what it implies as far as
sorcery is concerned. Full on battle as any love affair is.
### - "unrelenting" might be a more apt description maybe?:) - i.e.
the normal view and perception of the world is unrelenting and steady
and perforce one has to be equally unrelenting just to hold one's own
in that situation - and then some if one is to move independently of
it... (i.e. a boat moving down-river with the flow has to actually
move faster than the current in order to navigate with a rudder for
example) - of course to do this one perforce needs a very fierce,
clear and unrelenting purpose in life... (and that's not something
which comes along every day eh:)
Back to your earliest comment, it is better to be the pursued
than pursuer in such a relationship because then the obligation
of proof is on the other party. Which you sort of touched on.
Which allows the first to be followed without negating the second.
Starting to sound like jr. counsel at satan,satan Beelzebub and
hossatanus.
That's a jewish law firm I believe :-)
### - lol, i feel like i've probably met the second and third party of
that law-firm already heh:) - but i tend to agree, at least in that
both are needed? - the art of the thing being in knowing which method
(if you can call it that:) is actually needed at the time? - i.e.
there are times when one must go out to meet whatever it is head-on -
and other times when patiently waiting is the key to it - my own
solution being to remain first and foremost the aggressive and active
prober etc, while all the time patiently waiting for it to all be
resolved - (a contradiction in terms i know - but it's somehow
resolved in practice;)
> Even if he was mad for a while certainly a contribution
> would still be read with interest as in the case of van gogh.
>
### - imho he did better than write about it... he gave us an actual
> living example instead!;)
>
At least he wrote what he did.
Early on when first in paris he gave another poet 22 copies
of his poems the total of his transcription. A fear of never
having his work exposed due to unfortunate circumstance possibly.
### - i guess he knew what he was doing alright - and as miller said;
was perhaps writing for a later generation than his own - i.e. he saw
no hope for his own to understand him let alone relate to it etc -
(this was also the lonely message from nietzche writing his last from
the loony-bin with his; everything has been done, all that remains now
is for them to get rid of me;)
>
. this innocence and youth that knows
nothing of mature reason or its limitations that just sees the target
> and then moves so powerfully and relentlessly against it
Yes the black and white portrait pulled out of and and
then pushed back into the color background. Akin to
pushing a rod thru a coil to produce a charge
### - an energy we've been collectively shown to re-route into other
and more seemingly lucrative pursuits perhaps?;)
>and by
whatever means it takes to do so? - of course we (as big people) are
shocked and draw-back from utterly destroying the known self (i.e. the
> ego)
It is o.k. if practised with caution and the known self is stored
for retrieval. A different subject but I get the gist of what you say.
### - in that sense then, rimbauds method was an unrelenting abrasion
of ego to the point that it dissolved altogether or at least no longer
mattered any more... accordingly then he deliberately placed himself
in difficult and exacting circumstances the better to expedite the
process (guts of steel no?:)
> Rimbaud being so young its understandable his melodrama
> but sheeze, never to find another passion or pursuit?
> ### - after all, he deliberately destroyed it in
himself in an effort to trancend what he perceived as the limitations
> of it! (a dastardly plan no doubt:)
He may also have known that he had produced something
which if preserved would stand on its own.
### - it could be said of him that he discovered and then deliberately
opened a door for anyone coming along behind him? - imho he was
definitely writing for later generations...
Had the foresight to leave the ring before he gets
knocked out as just another champ instead of the undefeated.
### - although i know what you mean, i can't be too certain about that
one... i.e. imho there was no one to knock him out or to defeat him...
it's a bit like saying Einstein could have been knocked-out or
defeated by someone? - i mean, in his own time he was more or less
peerless and was probably very acutely aware of that as being the
situation
>- but his passion and his drive
didn't end... it just resolutely focused on another world beyond the
> known and familiar world;)
>
Are these explored by his autobiographers?
### - only by miller as far as i know - (and which is why i rather
like his version:)
A 1995 movie was made of his life but the web pages
show mixed reviews Said Ann Rice based her popular
LaStait vampire character on him. Saw "Interview With
The Vampire" which was pretty entertaining.
### - like randy i would refer you here to albert camus's "rebel" for
the evolution, not so much of rimbaud, but of the entire genre and
philosophical point of realisation involved - (rimbaud was the
archetypal rebel without a cause, and can even represent satan's
revolt from god in that respect;)
> His imagery was quite integrated and self harmonic.
> I could see why artists would fear the pollutive effect
> of encountering his work as Miller did before giving it
> a good look see.
>
### - well we can certainly observe the effects of Rimbaud on the
> young... bob dylan for one (like a rolling stone;)
Magor influence for Dylan by his own account.
'Everything is gonna be better, when I paint my masterpiece"
- and morrison for
another (i.e. when they asked morrison what he believed in - he said -
i believe in a long slow derangement of all the senses - a direct
> quote from early Rimbaud;)
Morrison was a complete thief. A different type of artist
Yet the same desire to turn the world upside down.
### - heh @ morrison:) - the line i like though is from the bio-film
about him (the doors) where while he's picking-up and seducing the
lovely chick pam, and she basically asks him what it's all about and
he tells her the story of the village medicine-man (or shaman) who
uses his powers to have a vision and a dream - a vision and a dream
that heals the whole village - cool:):)
- so yes in some ways bumping into Rimbaud
> a bit later might lend itself a bit more to longevity,
I think so. I knew the basics of his life from an anecdote
here and there.
### - point in fact being that an early intro to the concept of
rimbaud will probably avert a major part of anyone's so called normal
socialisation and upbringing in their community (no wonder rimbaud
is/was generally discouraged reading eh:)
>and perhaps a
> steady flame is more enduring in some ways than a shooting star
There are many forms of art though on the other hand.
Its a cliché but the artist creates because he must.
If Rimbaud took that to be the path he followed-action, then
that fits still in his previous definitions
### - well presumably the artist is forced to create "because" of his
vision and not as an aspiration to having one? - plus what form it
takes after that being something to do with the innermost expression
and/or predilection of the person involved no?
>(or
meteor in the case of Rimbaud:) - but then the flash of light he made
in his race across the planet is still lighting up the sky 150 years
> after he split this plane -
His blatant faustian rantings have played no small part.
Most people as he cites in that letter mentioned never examine
themselves.
Its the old cliché. "The unexamined life is barely worth living"
I knew that cliché a long time before it rang true.
Was my brief 2 yr. passage through rehabs and 12 step
villages with their insistence personal inventory/recapitualation.
### - i guess it matters not how one comes by that understanding
(unless of course one gets hooked to bewailing one's fate and
circumstances etc) for in the end another entire road beckons the
traveller to walk along it - a road that apparently completely departs
company with the so called main stream thought and desires of a
collective humanity
>and perhaps even more so now than ever!
(miller's idea was that we have basically spent the last 150 years
trying to "go around" Rimbaud in an effort to defer dealing with it:)
>
Not me bro. Its do I have the skill or desire to translate
or step down the intensity of my understanding and the pieces I
have created. Is there a propitious moment to capitalize blatantly
on my own interpretive constructs. The whole controlled folly verse
masterful folly calculus and divination. Or as the pointy shoed devil
of thames says "To be or not to be"
### - ah-ha ha i think got you figured now my friend:) - and thank you
for that information (Hannibal lector sips the air... sipsipsipsip:) -
and don't worry arthur, i wont be coming after you... i happen to
think the world is more interesting with you in it - lol:):):) - but
seriously, i think the message from old 'spearo is clear enough as the
point of a pre-action realisation? - i.e. it's a choice we can make to
continue "being" or not! - choose not to and basically you can do
whatever you want until you are oneday no more, after all everything
no longer matters... but consciously select "to be" (not necessarily
the easiest choice either:) and one perforce must accept in advance
any of the slings and arrows that "definitely-will" be thrown at you
by life - the cool part being that it all becomes a matter of
challenges and the accepting of them (or not) from then-on, one merely
adapting to the circumstances in order to deal with what is being
demanded of you at the time...
> imho the key to understanding Rimbaud is in his poem
"bad blood" where he cusses-down virtually everything
> we as human beings hold holy -
I liked that one. I sensed him laughing out loud as he
wrote it. The sheer joy of expressing in one burst-I suspect
he wrote that way- all the feelings that had knotted
together from many experiences and exposures. The
hypocrisy of the french trashing freedom for an emperor.
### - rimbaud in the temple of the lord angrily turning over the
tables and casting out the money-changers perhaps?;)
The desire to serve is in us all I guess to some degree or another
even if its just a pet or helping a turtle of the road.
### - here's where morrison calls them all a bunch of slaves:):)
I thought it was the best the rambling. He could be any
young person throwing a rant on the internet today whose
doing it with facts passion and conviction
### - we have the line of descent to consider... rimbaud, the beatniks
(i.e. the beat generation), the hippies... and then us today:)
>
he then jumps off the edge of the world into darkest africa
(presumably to be with his people of ham - the blacks who were the
overt slaves in his time) - where apparently he went further into
> (africa) than any white man before him;)
>
He was a true zealot in the original sense of following thru
on ones conviction
### - i prefer the terms impeccable, dedicated and ruthless;)
> it has also been said of Rimbaud that he was possibly the first
> beatnik:)
>
The elusive fifth beatle maybe :-)
### - heh:) - but in reality it's a line of descent perhaps no?;)
I once heard a good quote about dylan regarding his
1988 "Oh Mercy" album. " Reckless Imagination "
another way of saying divine spark. I guess I know Rimbaud
thru dylan or horror-scope 10/20 libri.
### - imho the truth is we "all" know rimbaud... just not very
directly and only through his imitators/modern-exponents etc? - e.g.
everyone knows dylan and so will have heard some of the message of
rimbaud albeit in a stepped-down (or reduced) form...
>and one i could easily vibrate with by
> choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
All superlatives are merely quaint artifacts
compared to the processing power of the infinite.
It knows fifty million possible things we both shall
be doing exactly five years from now. Retaining a
strategy for each should it decide to interfere/intervene.
The biblical "Every hair on your head is accounted for"
So many modalities. "There is a time appointed for each thing"
### - well i admire your faith... but like rimbaud i tend to see no
"great plan" for humanity and/or the world as such - just the clashing
and vying for supremacy of certain very all-too-human ideas merely
fighting it out on the world-stage, that and another but now totally
ignored world that is the older of the two... (imho this realisation
is most adequately and metaphorically demonstrated in the
understanding of the history of white south africa and the apartheid
regime that sprang out of it - i.e. over a period of about 400 years
they developed a very complex system of self-control - the problem
with it being the "outsider" who suddenly comes along (i.e. the
attention of the rest of the modern world suddenly focuses on it) and
sees this dreadful regime going-on and can see straight away that it's
pure crap! - but those who had ruled and/or endured the system for
over 400 years were quite adjusted and/or used to it as being just the
normal way;)
The question is who created more purely "Catholic-Orthodox"
sorcerers Rimbaud & Dylan Or Carlos & Slider. :-)
### - (roaring laughter:):) - i just hope that's not yet another line
of descent eh:):)
regards...
Intraphase
>
> Intraphase wrote
>
> >
> ### - i think i can maybe see the eternal optimist at work in you here
> Art?:) - plus it's a nice idea and one i could easily vibrate with by
> > choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
> >
>
> Eternal optimist might be a bit over the top or maybe not.
> In my little brain scan program hope is the 13 idea
> presented. Kind of speaks for itself. Compared to the
> past much progress has been made.
>
> ### - that depends on one's interpretation of the term progress no? -
> i.e. the question being is it a progress in destroying or creating
> that it refers to...
>
One seems to associate with the other in the lightning causes a fire and
the forest is readied for new growth. At least when destruction is modest.
Looking at earth from overhead the lights on the continents tell the story.
We are running out of space.
Saw a not to smarmy or drippy documentary on the great currents that circulate
cold water to warm climates and vice versa. A massive system where density
and the great ocean chasms (32,000 ft) cause the water to move at four inches
per second. Round trip being 2000 years. The seers five great epochs in that this
relative stability of global temperature is a 10,000 year fluke. The great system
of climate regulation that the deep currents represent having performed five full
movements of water or five full circulatory trips.
The point I'm driving at is that life as we know it is a fluke.
A random occurrence that allowed the current state of affairs.
This is also brought about by the volcanic contribution of carbon dioxide
balanced by the oceans decarbonization of the air the ultimate beneficiary being
the ozone layer and its protections from the suns harmful rays.
Its a profoundly delicate balance similar to the temporary state of
birth of a the female womb. I bring this in because I read entire article
and later you will allude to the possibility that this current destruction may
be theoretically redeemed if by chance ot design technology saves us from
extinction. Not something I dismiss or believe in. Don't really know.
> But there are surely glaring holes and atrocities ongoing
> as we converse. Burma comes to mind. In our neck of the
> woods Mexico has its first democratically elected
> president from the opposition party in fifty years.
>
> ### - i take it then to mean that you are of the school of thought
> that sees progress as being synonymous with creating?
>
Never really closed the definition in my mind but
probably yes. Life providing endless threats to existence.
> Excessive optimism is also a distinctly american trait.
> Then comes the inevitable let down whether its success or
> failure from an emotional high. That's the yankee
> way. Get stoned on some activity then rest on your laurels
> until shamed into the next national obsession.
>
> ### - basically (and imho) that's only a standard sociological
> coercion method/ploy perfected over centuries and currently
> championed, condoned and enforced (in this case) by the states...
> that and merely a variation of an older and well-practised/played-out
> theme
>
Entrainment. People are becoming more savvy. Vietnam was like the
adolescent americas first experience with puppy love that went very
wrong considering it wasn't willing to go toe to toe with the chinese
and blow up the neighborhood.
> but viewed from a particular pov, our so called progress is apparently
> and actually a retrograde movement, with humanity going back
> on itself in a long slow decline,
> >
>
> I don't doubt that argument can be made. But do you imply
> return to a more humane and sane approach between people
> as in periods from the past or a negative connotation regarding
> destruction of the planetary environment.
>
> ### - they paved paradise and put up a parking-lot? - at least, that
> is the undeniable progress/destruction i see going on all around me,
> plus i can't see it suddenly changing direction away from that
> really...
In practical terms from 10-40 yrs of age the congestion on the streets and
and in the air is markedly expanded.
>the only question being will humanity survive it, and if so,
> what kind of humanity will it be when nature itself has been bottled
> and sold (and probably exported to mars:) in easy-open packs or
> something (heh i too can be cynical eh:)
That may be the ultimate unconscious plan we all share deep in our psyches.
>- on the other hand, if you
> of the school that sees progress in the positive and so believes that
> progress so-called will eventuate in the liberation of mankind via and
> through its own scientific technology, then i could accept that
I covered this and agree
> (although exactly how the building of ever more securer prisons will
> ever result in a final liberation is beyond me -
My experience with crime and criminals tells me that prisons are
good things because there are those who shall remain violent
predators to the end. Even a person such as myself who has thwarted
every criminal advance regrets the time and energy lost doing so.
>although strangely
> enough the film the great escape is on today over here:)
One of my favorites. Steve Mcqueen passing the time in solitary
with his glove and ball.
>- i mean,
> we've already had several french revolutions in various forms and it
> just don't work beyond a point;)
>
Lack of personal responsibility and the training in the arts of courage
and determination i.e.: intent and impeccability.
> (see his poem bad-blood)
>
> http://www.gacq.com/lazaro/enfer.html
>
> >- he himself then
> abandoning his own writing and art - spitting and pissing on it, and
> then working tirelessly from then-on in some of the most dangerous
> places on earth in an effort to make a real step into and beyond the
> > known and so-called best of man
>
> I follow up to here. The disgust and desire to move on.
>
> ### - disgust can be very useful... (even neitzche said that - sartre
> too with his book "nausea";) - the real question being; just what does
> it take for a man to have finally "had enough" and so desire/decide to
> move-on and away from the whole godamn mess!:) - imho a useful film in
> this respect is micky roark's "prayer for the dying" in which this is
> more fully explored... the story commencing at the point where (for
> one good reason or another) he's "had-enough" of the life he was
> living (a total surprise to him in this story as it goes:) and so he
> becomes determined to find another way - that is, if life doesn't
> already have other plans for him;)
>
Yes disgust and its friend healthy anger as motivation fuel.
Seen most of Mickey Rourkes movies but not that one.
> - (i.e. he felt it necessary to
> > give-up the known best (e.g. art) to make an entrance into a
> > better-best beyond art - (a most surprising idea no?:)
>
> Yes and no. For most yes. Pursue art long enough and
> the beast turns and fights you to the death. Life before
> art could sum up the conclusion of that battle if the artist
> is successful.
>
> ### - i see where you coming from... and i agree, but only if you
> accept that if the artist you describe is successful, he will of
> course no longer be merely the artist/communicator -
Two considerations, the definition of success.
Obvious financial success would almost be debilitating
to true innovation or creation of a new form like rimbaud
accomplished. Theres the other success where the body of work is
complete and is stored by the artist or ignored by the public.
A much more personal battle with the after effects of creation.
Van Gogh being the first type and anonymous artists the second.
>but the artist of
> life itself! - i.e. his "life" becomes his art - he becomes the
> "living-art" - the poetry in motion - the walking contradiction! - and
> seeing as he isn't a patron or a seller of the arts, his only
> objective then... is to "live it";)
>
Its the objective yes. I see a lighter and darker portrait.
It becomes the imperative. People are so naive sometimes about
there own creations. The power of the spoken word as carlos used
to like to get on about. Pieces pardon the extreme expression become
like entities, tolerable or in need of destruction.
> > Rimbaud though we share a name and the same birthday is
> > a bit of a pansy and fading violet type.
>
> >
> ### - i hardly think this description of rimbaud could be correct
> really... i mean, you have to understand that he deliberately made
> > himself "monstrous"
>
Conversational ploy :-)
> An adolescent trait to extreme. It seemed from the limited
> biography that some people thought highly of him in his
> own time. But understood he could not be swayed,
> example being forcefully returned after an outing or two,
> to his home by the gendarmes.
>
> ### - heh, he was a rascal and the epitome of the rebel type - and so
> hardly the shrinking-violet and pansy type you before described eh:)
>
He would have made a great singer guitarist. :-)
Thats the price to be a poet these days.
> > he replied (lol:) that he was cultivating them to flick
> at the rich, who he felt were "so civilised" that they deserved
> to be boiled! - heh heh heh:):):)
> >
>
> Wealth envy. Beyond that he made the best of anything
> it would seem. Even the irritation of lice and the insults
> they drew.
>
> ### - well i dunno about the wealth envy etc, but agreed on the making
> best of everything that occurs... (his endless search for gold only
> confusing the matter perhaps?:)
>
Money is money. Cant live with it cant live without it.
It isn't until a person gets older that the shop worn clichés
start to take on there real meaning. For me " No man is an island"
> i mean, he was actually a horrible character in every respect - and
> > deliberately so!
>
> Yes his debauchery was deliberate and well entered into.
> He pursued it as an art form.
>
> ### - agreed:) - that is if you accept this "deliberateness" of
> rimbaud, that and the fact that he didn't spare himself whatsoever (in
> fact deliberately placing himself in danger) in an effort to totally
> destroy the completely socialised/civilised part of himself... a man
> of vision and the courage of his convictions..
>
> "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom". A
> french phrase possibly. Not sure.
>
> ### - and well explored by sade and baudilare no doubt (baudilarie was
> rimbauds hero/master:)
>
People make quite a question out of " Have you read any of the french poets"
Poetry seemed to reach a zenith then and rimbaud was the guy shot out of
the cannon. Same with classical composition in the two preceding centuries.
Beethoven and Mozart being the two who emerged with voluminous body's of
work that people know even if they don't know they know.
> (the one thing we can say about rimbaud for sure is that he didn't
> > spare himself "whatsoever":)
> >
> No he led a life.
>
> ### - in nietzsche's terms rimbaud raised his demon of disgust until
> it became monstrous (i.e. meaning huge and prodigious:)
>
> It begins his need for expression because at 15 he begins to
> write for himself as opposed to schoolwork poems.
> But yes life was far more brutal.
>
> ### - in one of his poems he describes how at the age of 12 he
> "illustrated the human comedy" - (i.e. he wasn't called the boy genius
> for nothing eh:)
>
He was born knowing.
In various matrix style definitions I use to evaluate consciousness.
I use five states.
Born to seek
Born to encounter
Born to seek and find
Born to encounter & hold
Born complete as a living truth. ( born as truth )
Overviews of evolution and adaptation of spirit.
The worst and best being the fifth state.
> Thirty nine is not an unrespectable age to reach then.
> Probably the average or slightly above.
> Imagine a world with out anti-biotics, although some
> knew about moldy breads.
>
> ### - heh, and now all we know about is moldy old dough eh:) - plus i
> dunno, i mean, i had this argument out with our little lady-friend
> buttmark (much to her disgust;) about antibiotics etc and about how we
> (as a species i mean) might have still had an undamaged immune system
> without the advent of antibiotics? - a hard argument i know, and one
> of the ones that rather sides with progress so called as being a form
> of destruction...
>
I missed those articles. I think all the additives contribute also.
> Any judgment of him of course tempered by his age, and
> brilliance not withstanding
>
> ### - it is said that he completely used-up the total resources of art
> and culture in 3 short years! (i.e. everyone is particularly good at
> something and that was his forte perhaps - he was a genius at it in
> fact:)
>
He could have re-turned the wheel.
Covering each creative line-entity in novel form.
A physically conservative adaptation would have to have
occurred. That's where I don't under estimate his religious
or whole universe type of ponderings as authentic even if he
wrote in the words of his times which seem like antiques now.
One way or another he had to do what he did adventure wise.
> >
> the remarkable thing about him being that by the age of 18 he had
> completely finished with art and creating/writing etc and sought a
> better world beyond all that - undoubtedly he could have probably
> remained instead to become the most influential poet of the times
> >
>
> Yes there would be great torment in something like that
> for him. His work almost requires him to do what he later did.
> Having the intended or unintended consequence of
> elevating him to legend status as the years go on.
>
> ### - imho i don't think there was any "almost" about it... i.e. he
> saw what he had to do (or needed to be done) and then merely got on
> with the job of seeing it through to the end - plus how very revealing
> that his earthly fame and (actually most) hero-status revolves
> somewhat around this simple concept of seeing something through to the
> end no matter what eh;)
>
Its a worthy idea/concept.
Come hell or high water or a stairway to heaven
at least the question is answered or viewed as unanswerable
by the person seeking the knowledge implied by the question.
> The way I heard the story he "Disappeared never to be
> heard of again" Implying he vanished in a puff of smoke or
> was dispatched by the roadside
> anonymously or was lost in the woods.
>
> ### - even the french were raising a statue of him as the unknown
> genius boy poet who had died when he was 19 (ironically rimbaud was
> actually dying at the age of 37/38 as they erected this;)
>
That's the silly part the legendizing.
> No one possesses greater love than the one who
> is willing to lay down his life for his friends!
>
> Under these marching orders, a phrase he closes with
> in the poem. It is easily understood that he would prefer
> to beat down the gates of heaven than sit around
> wondering if it exists.
>
> ### - (smile:) - ahhh the impatience and folly of youth eh:) - at
> least, that's how we tend to see it as the rather already-sedated
> persons we are no? - but then perhaps our energies have already been
> diverted off into other more worldly pursuits instead eh? -
Not yet but soon. The preparation for old age requires capital.
That or jump of a cliff, which is actually still excepted practice
in some andes tribesmen who feel they have lived long enough.
>and now we
> all too tired and entrenched to ever look up again, let alone pursue
> something else and start-over from new exploring beyond the familiar
> known, except as an empty and idle speculation that is...
>
Well... sometimes, in my case I was looking down the next time
I looked up the inevitable encounter was progressing according
to its own momentum. Suffice to say " Its a long hard road to tipperary"
Don't know what that cliché means but I'm sure to find out someday. :-)
In other words acceptance would have neutralized all concerns.
Yet resistance is accepted and expected and so goes the need to create.
Also the supplying with insight into whatever I might be able to grasp.
Its all portraiture in the end. Intent/Will is the all of it.
The rest just snapshots like when we chatted about the hooligans
who suddenly departed your environment. I have many timelines like that.
Creative work regarding actions of the mystery, especially in large amounts
leaves me at least feeling like an autistic child fascinated with cups
and plates spinning on the floor. When the ultimate destination is to
simply command intent openly and verbally and have ones commands
carried out by the mystery "something cc concurred with" or denied for
reason of its own, including delayed delivery due to better situational
logistics up the road.
It cuts both ways that knife.
Recently my intent was to convince my 17 yr. old niece that she needs her
driving license and a high school state sponsored equivalency diploma.
Now she is home living with her mother again doing exactly those things with
passion and determination. I also wanted her boyfriend to understand the
"some things you just got to do" way of thinking. Same as when children
are potty trained or learn to enjoy showering. Now he is home and working
for his step dad. At what moment did I accomplish each without launching
into an old fuddy duddy guy speech( which would have failed) which I never
gave in to the urge to do.
Don't know, with my niece but with her boyfriend we were playing music
together and I was siting at the drums following along whenever he hit
a groove with a well defined rhythm. He said he never really played with
drums before and thinking of my own progression I told him you have to
force your self to do it. He looked at me for about two seconds and went
back to playing.
The epiphany being that music is no different than anything else
progress is achieved sometimes only thru forcing oneself to do what is
unnatural. Ending the music is a cool way to escape the real world line.
> With such ferocity one might actually succeed.
>
> ### - agreed - but then isn't that the point? - i.e. his intent was
> impeccable:)
>
Yes
> Obviously reading the autobiography would supply more
> information but his motivations seem abundant.
> The bible being the sorcerers handbook of choice
> even to this day for convoluting the "Rigid verses flexible"
> as Gander might say.
>
> ### - my way out of that was to imagine (like miller) 50 rimbauds let
> loose in the world... i.e. not all of them would have ended-up exactly
> where the original rimbaud did - or if they did, then the many roads
> leading to that eventuality would have been more illuminating
> perhaps - but assuming he actually made it across (i.e. to holding
> truth in "these" hands and in "this" lifetime etc) we still have his
> gruelling example and his impeccable intent to consider and to ponder
> with awe... that is before deciding to take up the cloth so to speak
> and to attempt to carry on then from where he left off maybe?
> (miller's concept:)
>
I'm being attacked by clichés today-the many are called but few are
chosen line. What part was predestination is the mysterious part.
Although the impressionist movement was in full swing around that time.
Read a novel about Flaubert one time. Also a very hard life but successful.
> That first commandment does imply what it implies as far as
> sorcery is concerned. Full on battle as any love affair is.
>
> ### - "unrelenting" might be a more apt description maybe?:) - i.e.
> the normal view and perception of the world is unrelenting and steady
> and perforce one has to be equally unrelenting just to hold one's own
> in that situation - and then some if one is to move independently of
> it... (i.e. a boat moving down-river with the flow has to actually
> move faster than the current in order to navigate with a rudder for
> example) - of course to do this one perforce needs a very fierce,
> clear and unrelenting purpose in life... (and that's not something
> which comes along every day eh:)
>
Yes his writing was a dispensing process. As the old way was burned the
flames were captured in poems. He did hold back poetically to keep
the new form within a certain boundary. In the letter among several other
things in a group of moral pseudo- debaucheries he mentions how he would
have loved to join the cult of mary instead of saying he would like to have
slinked along the ground and sucked on her toes like they did in the past.
A natural creative balance or forethought that to overstate the case even
in a rant would spoil the effect. Implying the same nonetheless of those who did.
> Back to your earliest comment, it is better to be the pursued
> than pursuer in such a relationship because then the obligation
> of proof is on the other party. Which you sort of touched on.
> Which allows the first to be followed without negating the second.
> Starting to sound like jr. counsel at satan,satan Beelzebub and
> hossatanus.
> That's a jewish law firm I believe :-)
>
> ### - lol, i feel like i've probably met the second and third party of
> that law-firm already heh:) - but i tend to agree, at least in that
> both are needed? - the art of the thing being in knowing which method
> (if you can call it that:) is actually needed at the time? - i.e.
> there are times when one must go out to meet whatever it is head-on -
> and other times when patiently waiting is the key to it
Can only be felt like sensing the subtlest of winds on the skin
>- my own
> solution being to remain first and foremost the aggressive and active
> prober etc, while all the time patiently waiting for it to all be
> resolved - (a contradiction in terms i know - but it's somehow
> resolved in practice;)
>
The only strategy solution to a unresolved logical problem being
intuition and its various suggested improvisations
> > Even if he was mad for a while certainly a contribution
> > would still be read with interest as in the case of van gogh.
> >
> ### - imho he did better than write about it... he gave us an actual
> > living example instead!;)
> >
>
> At least he wrote what he did.
> Early on when first in paris he gave another poet 22 copies
> of his poems the total of his transcription. A fear of never
> having his work exposed due to unfortunate circumstance possibly.
>
> ### - i guess he knew what he was doing alright - and as miller said;
> was perhaps writing for a later generation than his own - i.e. he saw
> no hope for his own to understand him let alone relate to it etc -
> (this was also the lonely message from nietzche writing his last from
> the loony-bin with his; everything has been done, all that remains now
> is for them to get rid of me;)
>
A horrible time to be alive if one had hopes of enlightenment
for the mass of humanity. Still a distant point on a grey horizon.
> >
> . this innocence and youth that knows
> nothing of mature reason or its limitations that just sees the target
> > and then moves so powerfully and relentlessly against it
>
> Yes the black and white portrait pulled out of and and
> then pushed back into the color background. Akin to
> pushing a rod thru a coil to produce a charge
>
> ### - an energy we've been collectively shown to re-route into other
> and more seemingly lucrative pursuits perhaps?;)
>
Yes. Even if that is the desire, the profitization,
timing is still the key element if the creations already exist.
> >and by
> whatever means it takes to do so? - of course we (as big people) are
> shocked and draw-back from utterly destroying the known self (i.e. the
> > ego)
>
> It is o.k. if practised with caution and the known self is stored
> for retrieval. A different subject but I get the gist of what you say.
>
> ### - in that sense then, rimbauds method was an unrelenting abrasion
> of ego to the point that it dissolved altogether or at least no longer
> mattered any more... accordingly then he deliberately placed himself
> in difficult and exacting circumstances the better to expedite the
> process (guts of steel no?:)
>
Yes. There's a point of no return involved also. Something I sure he was
aware of and probably hoped to cross so that his decision was irreversible.
> > Rimbaud being so young its understandable his melodrama
> > but sheeze, never to find another passion or pursuit?
>
> > ### - after all, he deliberately destroyed it in
> himself in an effort to trancend what he perceived as the limitations
> > of it! (a dastardly plan no doubt:)
>
> He may also have known that he had produced something
> which if preserved would stand on its own.
>
> ### - it could be said of him that he discovered and then deliberately
> opened a door for anyone coming along behind him? - imho he was
> definitely writing for later generations...
>
Yes. I would agree.
Never really knew-Like A Rolling Stone- was a 100 percent ode to rimbaud.
His-dylans-dispensing period also from the tone of it.
> Had the foresight to leave the ring before he gets
> knocked out as just another champ instead of the undefeated.
>
> ### - although i know what you mean, i can't be too certain about that
> one... i.e. imho there was no one to knock him out or to defeat him...
> it's a bit like saying Einstein could have been knocked-out or
> defeated by someone? - i mean, in his own time he was more or less
> peerless and was probably very acutely aware of that as being the
> situation
>
His disappearance legends taken as an act of self promotion across
the ages lends itself to the idea that he understood sooner or later
someone would come along with a comparable set of ideas.
Not exactly the same but of the same vain that new life must shed the
old life or it will die. In his time their were many things fading out.
As for Einstein, with out his cello or oboe or whatever he fancied
I doubt he would have come up with the theory of Relative Scales
I mean relativity !! :-) He never understood the relationship
between the three minor scale forms and the magor scale and how they
are used as angular transitions around the circle of fifths to
harmoniously enter the various keys that can be accessed by triggering
the single note that separates each scale. The melodic and harmonic
minor allowing opposing 90 left or right degree transits of the circle.
The relationship between the exact scale and the well tempered scale
being a whole tone different over every 32 octaves or a quarter tone
on a eight octave piano-hence the need for piano tuners and detuning
after the perfect relationship is established for a piano that sounds
melodious. Its the cross pollination or specialization of science
that has lead to no resolution between Relativity and Quantum mechanics.
My theory-hohoho. The expansion rate of the universe the pull of gravity
origin state verse the first inertial expansion within our black hole
excuse me universe is the same relationship as the well tempered and the
perfect scale.
Triggering the related parallel overtones that match up between the
perfect scale and the tempered scale after eliminating
those that don't match up across many octaves of energy should simply
open time & space.
At least that's what me me me and me think.
Not now but in the near future of course.
Don't tell the men in black I let that one out. :-)
It would be a large device of energy pulsed through grids
controlled by computers in overtaking circular waves that
would simply part the medium of dark energy revealing
absolute nothingness. A black hole inside of a black hole.
The second and third slow moving great planes above and below.
Each being simply a vibratory wave from previous penetrations
I hate Einstein :-)
But in conclusion the well tempered scale-Quantum Mechanics
has yet to be linked to the perfect scale-T.O.Relativity
Why because Einstein was a lousy cellist-composer.
Damm I doth digress when his foul name is made mention.
> >- but his passion and his drive
> didn't end... it just resolutely focused on another world beyond the
> > known and familiar world;)
> >
>
> Are these explored by his autobiographers?
>
> ### - only by miller as far as i know - (and which is why i rather
> like his version:)
>
> A 1995 movie was made of his life but the web pages
> show mixed reviews Said Ann Rice based her popular
> LaStait vampire character on him. Saw "Interview With
> The Vampire" which was pretty entertaining.
>
> ### - like randy i would refer you here to albert camus's "rebel" for
> the evolution, not so much of rimbaud, but of the entire genre and
> philosophical point of realisation involved - (rimbaud was the
> archetypal rebel without a cause, and can even represent satan's
> revolt from god in that respect;)
>
Nobel prize winner. Quick web scan reveals the equation
all rebellion eventually leads to a new tyranny
This I can grasp easily. Web extracts show that
the theme is explored with grace of language.
The periods of your development rimbaud-camus
A disease and a cure. :-) kidding.
Or a powerful tequila followed by some salt.
I was influenced by a sideman in the psychology
circus eric fromme and "Escape from Freedom"
Which cover the same theme with a different angle.
Robust literature sometimes puts me to sleep in that
I've reached the formulaic stage. There are formulas
that have been discovered and those that have not been
discovered. In preceding eras the need for entertainment
allowed many writers to cover the same theme from many
different angles. Frommes work being a precursor subset.
But powerfully scientific in that he broke from the psychiatric
community with the fundamental understanding that real change
is slow change and there are many backwards motions.
Others had that as a passing theme but for him it was a driving
or unifying theme. That great change was the illusion of many small
changes finally coalescing.
> > His imagery was quite integrated and self harmonic.
> > I could see why artists would fear the pollutive effect
> > of encountering his work as Miller did before giving it
> > a good look see.
> >
> ### - well we can certainly observe the effects of Rimbaud on the
> > young... bob dylan for one (like a rolling stone;)
>
> Magor influence for Dylan by his own account.
>
> 'Everything is gonna be better, when I paint my masterpiece"
>
> - and morrison for
> another (i.e. when they asked morrison what he believed in - he said -
> i believe in a long slow derangement of all the senses - a direct
> > quote from early Rimbaud;)
>
> Morrison was a complete thief. A different type of artist
> Yet the same desire to turn the world upside down.
>
> ### - heh @ morrison:) - the line i like though is from the bio-film
> about him (the doors) where while he's picking-up and seducing the
> lovely chick pam, and she basically asks him what it's all about and
> he tells her the story of the village medicine-man (or shaman) who
> uses his powers to have a vision and a dream - a vision and a dream
> that heals the whole village - cool:):)
>
The closest to rimbaud of contemporary times.
Goes back to the idea of the poet must stand and
recite his work these days if he is to gain an audience
> - so yes in some ways bumping into Rimbaud
> > a bit later might lend itself a bit more to longevity,
>
> I think so. I knew the basics of his life from an anecdote
> here and there.
>
> ### - point in fact being that an early intro to the concept of
> rimbaud will probably avert a major part of anyone's so called normal
> socialisation and upbringing in their community (no wonder rimbaud
> is/was generally discouraged reading eh:)
>
Yes for possibly the previous three or four generations.
My observation of young people is based on the words and thoughts
of the science of generational psychology. Our generation being
natural loners or nomads due to the influences of the WWII
community types and then the quiet art supporting silent types
that followed and then the endlessly rebellious types-hippie generation.
That all leading up to social change overload and the eventual
retrenchment suggested by Camus in that all rebellion leads
to new forms of tyranny which is a superset of Frommes
subset-real change is slow change.
Rimbaud would be harmless on today's young they are as
communitarian as the WWII and easily lead. Look at pop music.
The rave community and its lack of real complex expression in
favor of the joining and oneness of ecstasy and dancing.
The prominence of candy and children's toys and not so secret
top secret locations.
CC by the way followed the Silent-Guru art supporting archetype
of the silent generation. Were all susceptible to our surroundings.
> >and perhaps a
> > steady flame is more enduring in some ways than a shooting star
>
> There are many forms of art though on the other hand.
> Its a cliché but the artist creates because he must.
> If Rimbaud took that to be the path he followed-action, then
> that fits still in his previous definitions
>
> ### - well presumably the artist is forced to create "because" of his
> vision and not as an aspiration to having one? - plus what form it
> takes after that being something to do with the innermost expression
> and/or predilection of the person involved no?
>
Yes that is much better stated. Something about saying
" I am following my vision" or "The muse has commanded"
just doesn't seem to appropriate here.
Create and complete a body of art as a replacement for
previous influences or go completely spiritually insane
ala captain curtz-apocolypse now.
That is my understanding-no choice involved
Circumstances always seeming to bow to that imperative.
Although typing and editing previous works for historical
purpose of understanding and reviewing the past can be tedious
or actually-painful but necessary.
Art these days-wideview is more remedy than vision.
With plenty of pap supported lucratively by the
people who choose entertainment over discovery.
I'm not arguing against or for just stating cultural
conditions as I see them. A definitive lull before the storm.
> >(or
> meteor in the case of Rimbaud:) - but then the flash of light he made
> in his race across the planet is still lighting up the sky 150 years
> > after he split this plane -
>
> His blatant faustian rantings have played no small part.
> Most people as he cites in that letter mentioned never examine
> themselves.
> Its the old cliché. "The unexamined life is barely worth living"
> I knew that cliché a long time before it rang true.
> Was my brief 2 yr. passage through rehabs and 12 step
> villages with their insistence personal inventory/recapitualation.
>
> ### - i guess it matters not how one comes by that understanding
> (unless of course one gets hooked to bewailing one's fate and
> circumstances etc)
That is an understood danger. In 12 steps there are remedy and closing
procedures although most don't follow them.
The idea of listing harms received as well as harms paid out-done to
others by recapitualator.
Early on I feared the energy drag effects of casual mental emotional
or physical aggression. At first obsessively but later just habit
and easy to do as energy piles up in storage.
CC concurred on energy conservation although from a different angle.
>for in the end another entire road beckons the
> traveller to walk along it - a road that apparently completely departs
> company with the so called main stream thought and desires of a
> collective humanity
>
> >and perhaps even more so now than ever!
> (miller's idea was that we have basically spent the last 150 years
> trying to "go around" Rimbaud in an effort to defer dealing with it:)
> >
>
> Not me bro. Its do I have the skill or desire to translate
> or step down the intensity of my understanding and the pieces I
> have created. Is there a propitious moment to capitalize blatantly
> on my own interpretive constructs. The whole controlled folly verse
> masterful folly calculus and divination. Or as the pointy shoed devil
> of thames says "To be or not to be"
>
> ### - ah-ha ha i think got you figured now my friend:) -
I thought you had me pegged previously. :-)
>and thank you
> for that information (Hannibal lector sips the air... sipsipsipsip:) -
A well drawn predator with redeeming qualities and an understandable
descent into madness. I rooted for him and was delighted he understood
agent "Star-Ling"
She wanted to save the lambs but could only save one.
> and don't worry arthur, i wont be coming after you... i happen to
> think the world is more interesting with you in it - lol:):):)
My zebra like flesh is soured by the sulfurous gases of hell and
the the alternating sickly sweet smell of lilacs and orchids from
many surreptitious raids on heavens unknown passages and corridors.
>- but
> seriously, i think the message from old 'spearo is clear enough as the
> point of a pre-action realisation? - i.e. it's a choice we can make to
> continue "being" or not! - choose not to and basically you can do
> whatever you want until you are oneday no more,
The lack of purpose is mind numbing
>after all everything
> no longer matters... but consciously select "to be" (not necessarily
> the easiest choice either:) and one perforce must accept in advance
> any of the slings and arrows that "definitely-will" be thrown at you
> by life -
There are of course the arms that can be taken up to do battle.
>the cool part being that it all becomes a matter of
> challenges and the accepting of them (or not) from then-on, one merely
> adapting to the circumstances in order to deal with what is being
> demanded of you at the time...
>
As you detailed before in the nebulous movements between action and aware.
> > imho the key to understanding Rimbaud is in his poem
> "bad blood" where he cusses-down virtually everything
> > we as human beings hold holy -
>
> I liked that one. I sensed him laughing out loud as he
> wrote it. The sheer joy of expressing in one burst-I suspect
> he wrote that way- all the feelings that had knotted
> together from many experiences and exposures. The
> hypocrisy of the french trashing freedom for an emperor.
>
> ### - rimbaud in the temple of the lord angrily turning over the
> tables and casting out the money-changers perhaps?;)
>
Righteousness in the extreme and well stated.
The avenging angels of hell and heaven in one man.
> The desire to serve is in us all I guess to some degree or another
> even if its just a pet or helping a turtle of the road.
>
> ### - here's where morrison calls them all a bunch of slaves:):)
>
> I thought it was the best the rambling. He could be any
> young person throwing a rant on the internet today whose
> doing it with facts passion and conviction
>
> ### - we have the line of descent to consider... rimbaud, the beatniks
> (i.e. the beat generation), the hippies... and then us today:)
>
Eclectic is the word I would use.
Eclectic Warriors Vs. Electric Warriors
A new time of burning that which is no longer useful is here.
Most represented by the rave community and their desire to just be.
Not a very sustainable state in a world where things age and decay.
> >
> he then jumps off the edge of the world into darkest africa
> (presumably to be with his people of ham - the blacks who were the
> overt slaves in his time) - where apparently he went further into
> > (africa) than any white man before him;)
> >
>
> He was a true zealot in the original sense of following thru
> on ones conviction
>
> ### - i prefer the terms impeccable, dedicated and ruthless;)
>
To each his own. In business he would be called a "Closer"
One who makes sure the deal is signed on the dotted line.
Seeing as he is well represented in cyberspace his immortality
shall last as long as does the human race.
> > it has also been said of Rimbaud that he was possibly the first
> > beatnik:)
> >
>
> The elusive fifth beatle maybe :-)
>
> ### - heh:) - but in reality it's a line of descent perhaps no?;)
>
Yes each river can be traced when I'm done editing poetry I shall
read more of his stuff. For me poetry is everywhere and must be
dodged like raindrops. Although one of twenty or fifty is truly
impossible to toss away in a drawer.
Like old poems condensing into a superstate.
That's why editing/transcribing old stuff is muddling of the mind.
> I once heard a good quote about dylan regarding his
> 1988 "Oh Mercy" album. " Reckless Imagination "
> another way of saying divine spark. I guess I know Rimbaud
> thru dylan or horror-scope 10/20 libri.
>
> ### - imho the truth is we "all" know rimbaud... just not very
> directly and only through his imitators/modern-exponents etc? - e.g.
> everyone knows dylan and so will have heard some of the message of
> rimbaud albeit in a stepped-down (or reduced) form...
>
> >and one i could easily vibrate with by
> > choice alone, if it were up to me that is i mean:)
>
> All superlatives are merely quaint artifacts
> compared to the processing power of the infinite.
> It knows fifty million possible things we both shall
> be doing exactly five years from now. Retaining a
> strategy for each should it decide to interfere/intervene.
> The biblical "Every hair on your head is accounted for"
> So many modalities. "There is a time appointed for each thing"
>
> ### - well i admire your faith...
I have no faith.
I know what I know.
"The onslaught of knowledge"
The existence of the supreme is fact.
I have been to my original container ship/soul.
Various other mechanical and practical realities.
There is one great hurdle which humankind must cross.
There is a hierarchy of procedures or laws/principles.
For me the point is moot when I leave I go to my ship
and choose my next destination. In some worlds you simply
open a bridge of light and appear in others where all obey the law
and choose death before disobedience you simply land your ship.
The question of rebellion arises in that scenario.
There comes a point where there is nothing left to acquire.
Theoretically that is :-)
Most religions and governments understand this is how it is.
But why change as long as things are rolling along fine.
There exists no reason to prove anything.
Proof would entail allowing people to examine my soul.
Which is a machine very similar to our bodies here.
Performing most functions autonomic ally without conscious
need to say-breath in/breath out.
Hence unless there is good cause-planet system failure.
Or adherence to the basic laws of truth worldwide then mankind
need never fear the cognitive disruption of contact with others.
Plus if you prove such things then somebody demands you do it again
like a little dog in a circus jumping thru hoops of fire to amuse others.
Thats it in a nutshell-pun intended
Like a black hole that never exploded.
>but like rimbaud i tend to see no
> "great plan" for humanity and/or the world as such -
I agree.
>just the clashing
> and vying for supremacy of certain very all-too-human ideas merely
> fighting it out on the world-stage,
The War of Ideas
>that and another but now totally
> ignored world that is the older of the two... (imho this realisation
> is most adequately and metaphorically demonstrated in the
> understanding of the history of white south africa and the apartheid
> regime that sprang out of it - i.e. over a period of about 400 years
> they developed a very complex system of self-control - the problem
> with it being the "outsider" who suddenly comes along (i.e. the
> attention of the rest of the modern world suddenly focuses on it) and
> sees this dreadful regime going-on and can see straight away that it's
> pure crap! -
That is the current state of affairs of this world exactly.
So flybys and interference with attempts at planetary annihilation
are allowed by those willing to absorb the cost and consequences.
>but those who had ruled and/or endured the system for
> over 400 years were quite adjusted and/or used to it as being just the
> normal way;)
>
That's why I got hung up on Eric Fromme
He states that theme in many sub texts and sub sub texts.
Originally deriving the theme from moses being forced to lead
his people thru the desert for two generations so they would
unlearn the lessons of slavery while captives of the egyptians.
Not being allowed to enter the promised land himself because of
his mind state and inability to adapt to freedom.
> The question is who created more purely "Catholic-Orthodox"
> sorcerers Rimbaud & Dylan Or Carlos & Slider. :-)
>
> ### - (roaring laughter:):) - i just hope that's not yet another line
> of descent eh:):)
>
> regards...
Later Art
We shall choose Ithaca, the faithful land, frugal and
audacious thought, lucid action, the generosity of the
man who understands. In the light, the earth, the earth
remains our first and last love. Our brothers are
breathing under the same sky; justice is a living thing.
Now is born that strange joy which helps one live and
die, and which we shall never again renounce to a later
time. On the sorrowing earth it is the unresting thorn,
the bitter food, the harsh wind off the sea, the ancient
dawn forever renewed.
With this joy, through long struggle, we shall remake
the soul of our time, and a Europe which will exclude
nothing. Not even that phantom Nietzsche who, for
twelve years after his downfall, was continually invoked
by the West as the ruined image of its loftiest
knowledge and its nihilism; nor the prophet of justice
without mercy who rests, by mistake, in the
unbelievers' plot at Highgate Cemetery; nor the deified
mummy of the man of action in his glass coffin; nor
any part of what the intelligence and energy of Europe
have ceaselessly furnished to the pride of a
contemptible period. All may indeed live again, side by
side with the martyrs of 1905, but on condition that
they shall understand how they correct one another,
and that a limit, under the sun, shall curb them all.
Each tells the other that he is not God; this is the end
of romanticism.
At this moment, when each of us must fit an arrow to
his bow and enter the lists anew, to reconquer, within
history and in spite of it, that which he owns already,
the thin yield of his fields, the brief love of this earth,
at this moment when at last a man is born, it is time to
forsake our age and its adolescent rages. The bow
bends; the wood complains. At the moment of supreme
tension, there will leap into flight an unswerving arrow,
a shaft that is inflexible and free.
Extract Albert Camus "The Rebel" Nobel Laurete-Literature
..but on condition that
they shall understand how they correct one another,
and that a limit, under the sun, shall curb them all.
Each tells the other that he is not God; this is the end
of romanticism.
"Even I have a robot/angel should I stray too far."
Diary of A Time Traveler-Dr Spike
Eastland Kerry
right now, but wanted to make a few comments.
The power of supposedly "objective" truth allows tricksters and TBs alike to
set up the terms of discourse. Realizing that those terms are mostly political
and/or self-interested, and that "objective" truth is in fact relative, is not
something your typical conservative is willing to do, though they're usually
quite willing to take advantage of the mechanics of such relativity in a pinch
(take the Republican POV, ala Baker, of manual recounts in the last US
presidential election).
Call it what you will, the effect of relativism on good old "objective" truth
and reality, though sometimes slow acting, is relentlessly breaking down social
walls, deconstructing assertions, to expose a naked bedrock which the laughing
unknown endlessly carves like water into a multitude of faces.
As for Bohemians and Beatniks, etc., I think Socrates was probably one, and all
the early Greeks of his time who sacriligeously took the lesser Elusian Mystery
home for casual use at dinner parties.
(I'm still pissed at Zimmerman, though, for obscuring the name of the great
Dylan Thomas, but I'll eventually forgive him :-)
"And death shall have no dominion . . ."
Randy
Bigfoot
>why do you think a medium of dark energy does exist?
Dark matter/energy is a very unlikely solution to
the imbalance between the observed universe and what
is cosmologically predicted. I think it's probably
something like: all the energy expended by the
expansion of the universe against the pull of gravity
for the last 15 billion (unadjusted for time-inflation,
mind you) has not been accounted for in the current
cosmological picture in terms of the mass equivalent of
that energy(as in E=mc^2). Some such unaccounted property
in the current scheme seems much more likely to me to be
the reality rather than the existance of a vast,
non-conformant primordial constituancy.
> but IMHO the theory of photons being waves is a
>step backwards,
Many feel our need to define anything in terms of
solid particles is the basic fallacy of all our current
scientific delimas. Since all particles seem to decay
or disassemble into ever smaller particles, there is fuel
for the argument that there is no basic smallest particle
only ever smaller points of enrgy better characterized as
"standing wave packets", and everything is the same thing.
It's all wave phenomenon that are kenetic, electrical or
similarly active (energy), or standing wave phenomenon
(matter). Life is the stuff dreams are made of.
>as it does lead to the unneccessary
>question of "what is the medium for these waves?".
With or without particle presumptions, the existance
of wave phenomenon is irrefutable and the above
question is valid regardless.
> I think the question should
>rather be "what is all this relative to? What does
>prevent that all this relativity does collapse into
>zero being relative to zero?" and the answer should
>have something to do with castaneda's idea of "Intent"...
I like the sorcerors explanation of the nagual (*without*
the capital N, thank you very much) as being the vast void
wherein the crucible of all things tonally indicative is
provided space to exist.
>> I hate Einstein :-)
> and gravitation is independant of altitude,
>simply because the experiments where made in a very
>narrow environment. Who does guarrantee us that our
>beloved results from physics will still work some
>lightyears away from earth?
Science (the tonal's preferred currency) is forever locked
into the compilation of a finite set of inherently incomplete
inter-relationships the ultimate conclusion of which collectively
imply that it (science) is an inadequate tool for describing
any reality in which infinity is an intergral component.
>Luckily we have castaneda who said that every person is
>carrying a whole universe in his body, and that space/time
>doesn't exist in reality.
Of course they do, you blithering maniac! "Infinity surrounds
us and you can use it if you want to." (or something like that)
And Castaneda didn't say it. The character of DJ said it. And
I don't believe for a minute that a putz like CC thought that
up himself. Not for a second.
> According to him physics would
>work some lightyears away from earth, simply because people
>would carry their Intent of "it's got to work there" with
>them to the places wherever experiments are done.
CC can take his "intent" and stick it up his... what's that?
Am I bitter? What do you mean, "Why all the anger?" I'm
perfectly justified in my - what? A warrior has no what?
Well that's easy for you to say, Mr. unbending intent, but
let me tell you something, Pally, I- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>-I.
That was the funniest thing, that look you just gave me. I
mean, really, it was, uh...what were we talking about?
>> Damm I doth digress when his foul name is made mention.
>
>No problem, philosophy is philosophy no matter if done by some
>nerd called einstein or by a couple of scientists measuring
>their own Intent...or by a con-man called castraneda. :-)
Castrati the castrator.
-Bigfoot (the myth, the animal, the backseat physicist.
Go sublight and turn LEFT! LEFT, you red dwarf!)
chris rodgers
> Of course they do, you blithering maniac! "Infinity surrounds
> us and you can use it if you want to." (or something like that)
> And Castaneda didn't say it. The character of DJ said it. And
> I don't believe for a minute that a putz like CC thought that
> up himself. Not for a second.
Oh Mike my laddy boy. Not for a second? How about for the rest
of your life then? It was CC all along. He just did a masterful
stalking job convincing his poor readers. It all came from his
mind. Sorry to burst the bubble pally. Those words came from his
typewriter. The Walter Mitty lineage of bullshiters. Ancient
liars who end up believing their lies. Welcome to reality. :)
slider
Intraphase wrote
>
### - that depends on one's interpretation of the term progress no? -
i.e. the question being is it a progress in destroying or creating
> that it refers to...
>
One seems to associate with the other in the lightning
causes a fire and the forest is readied for new growth.
At least when destruction is modest.
### - i was referring more to the modern term of progress? - and
although i understand what you mean, if i was to apply your above
principal to the progress and march of science as a destructive means
to clear the er, area for new growth etc, then the whole model starts
to fall down - (i would agree about the natural balance of nature -
it's just that imho man's so-called science is all very un-nature-al)
Looking at earth from overhead the lights on the continents
tell the story. We are running out of space.
### - (smile:) - well that's why we going to mars no?:) - i.e. the
attitude is; when we fucked up this planet we'll just go and get
another one! (after all, we trained to live in a disposable society
no:)
similar to the temporary state of
birth of a the female womb. I bring this in because I read
entire article and later you will allude to the possibility that
this current destruction may be theoretically redeemed if by
chance ot design technology saves us from
extinction. Not something I dismiss or believe in.
Don't really know.
### - a slight misunderstanding here in context only... i.e. i
personally don't visualise our technology ever saving us from
extinction... rather the opposite in that it's "actually causing" our
extinction?
> But there are surely glaring holes and atrocities ongoing
> as we converse. Burma comes to mind. In our neck of the
> woods Mexico has its first democratically elected
> president from the opposition party in fifty years.
>
> ### - i take it then to mean that you are of the school of thought
> that sees progress as being synonymous with creating?
>
Never really closed the definition in my mind but
probably yes. Life providing endless threats to existence.
### - can't see it myself... i.e. so-called scientific progress
appears to be directly responsible for the present terrible (and
probably terminal)state of the planet... that and a certain ideology
that gave rise to it, with the destruction it's creating doing
anything but preparing the ground for new growth... that is unless you
believe that the ultimate liberation IS death, in which case science
is still the good-guy;)
>
### - they paved paradise and put up a parking-lot? - at least, that
is the undeniable progress/destruction i see going on all around me,
plus i can't see it suddenly changing direction away from that
> really...
In practical terms from 10-40 yrs of age the congestion
on the streets and in the air is markedly expanded.
### - imho we fucked it man... there's no hope in that direction
whatsoever, plus no amount of recycling our household trash is
ever going to help any:)
>
the only question being will humanity survive it, and if so,
what kind of humanity will it be when nature itself has been bottled
and sold (and probably exported to mars:) in easy-open packs or
> something (heh i too can be cynical eh:)
That may be the ultimate unconscious plan we all share
deep in our psyches.
### - well you are still hopeful maybe (i.e. optimistic:) perhaps even
seeing the genetic code as being really a code that is working itself
out over time? - but then we have been well groomed to think
explicitly in terms of plans and straight lines and logical-type
approaches, and although it actually functions to a certain extent
shall we say, it still appears to be an effort to merely reduce and
distil (i.e. limit) nature and ourselves in some way - e.g. "reason"
is (or has become) the god we now all worship before all others
having come to always expect very reasonable answers
>- on the other hand, if you
of the school that sees progress in the positive and so believes that
progress so-called will eventuate in the liberation of mankind via and
> through its own scientific technology, then i could accept that
I covered this and agree
### - i'm rather afraid we don't:) - i meant only that i could accept
that for "you" if that's how you feel, all i see is humanity painting
itself into a corner (i.e. just like south africa did) only there is
no outsider to come along and tell them that it's all crap, and now,
having killed-off all the poets who might just have told them, they
looking for a fantasy fucking "alien" to land here and to point the
damn way (the perfect answer really as this is sure to never
happen:) - i mean we been praying on this planet for the last 10,000
years or something for someone to save us and it ain't happening...
> (although exactly how the building of ever more securer prisons will
> ever result in a final liberation is beyond me -
My experience with crime and criminals tells me that prisons are
good things because there are those who shall remain violent
predators to the end.
### - yeah... but the question remains; why are they violent, see? - i
mean, they weren't actually "born" like that so something must have
happened to them along the way? - but we know what happened
to them, they were inducted en-mass into a workhouse-system
(or ethic) that's run by the bumbles of this world - (please sir,
can i have some more;)
>although strangely
> enough the film the great escape is on today over here:)
One of my favorites. Steve Mcqueen passing the time in solitary
with his glove and ball.
### - well, if everyone's in prison then that only leaves the great
escape type scenarios no? (i.e. escape by any means possible whether
it be tunnels, disguise, over the wire or whatever ingenious and/or
harebrained method anyone can come up with heh heh heh;)
>- i mean,
we've already had several french revolutions in various forms and it
> just don't work beyond a point;)
>
Lack of personal responsibility and the training in the arts
of courage and determination i.e.: intent and impeccability.
### - yes, imho and observation two key things that have been
deliberately targeted and then dislocated as a direct means of
imposing control - (miller's implicit idea being that sex
performed/approached "correctly" (as opposed to all the repression and
its resultant kinkyness) being the reset button that can be pressed -
(a smashing idea in that if a person can actually get "sex" right (or
correct) in their life, then that the rest of their life will probably
then balance itself out more correctly in all its other departments
once this major area of sex has been properly sorted/balanced... (this
is also examined in orwell's 1984 to some extent where a cause of a
lot of the sociological problems of control are to be corrected by the
removal of the female orgasm:)
Yes disgust and its friend healthy anger as motivation fuel.
### - the chinese seem to consider "revenge" to be the best of all
motivators (probably true) - at least, (grin:) all the best kung-fu
films seem to have that as the central and powerfully motivating theme
to get the student to work harder and so to learn beyond his limits:)
Seen most of Mickey Rourkes movies but not that one.
### - micky roark seems to be one of those actors who selects his
roles with care - (imho his best being rumble-fish, one of h.e.
Hilton's trilogy, one of the others being "the outsiders" which imho
they totally fucked-up in the filming of it by the way;)
> - (i.e. he felt it necessary to
> > give-up the known best (e.g. art) to make an entrance into a
> > better-best beyond art - (a most surprising idea no?:)
>
> Yes and no. For most yes. Pursue art long enough and
> the beast turns and fights you to the death. Life before
> art could sum up the conclusion of that battle if the artist
> is successful.
>
> ### - i see where you coming from... and i agree, but only if you
> accept that if the artist you describe is successful, he will of
> course no longer be merely the artist/communicator -
Two considerations, the definition of success.
### - imho it's that of the artist personally breaking on through to
the other side only... the rest is merely worldly success (i.e. it
cheers sometimes, but mostly it boo's all efforts in that direction;)
Obvious financial success would almost be debilitating
to true innovation or creation of a new form like rimbaud
accomplished. Theres the other success where the body
of work is complete and is stored by the artist or ignored
by the public. A much more personal battle with the after
effects of creation. Van Gogh being the first type and
anonymous artists the second.
### - imho this is where rimbaud parts company with the rest of the
world in affirming a world beyond the merely symbolic or
representative artist - a dividing line that basically puts the best
we know and revere in second place (i.e. the exact reason why society
has tried to go-around rimbaud for the last 150 years rather than look
too closely at it;)
>but the artist of
> life itself! - i.e. his "life" becomes his art - he becomes the
> "living-art" - the poetry in motion - the walking contradiction! -
and seeing as he isn't a patron or a seller of the arts, his only
> objective then... is to "live it";)
>
Its the objective yes. I see a lighter and darker portrait.
It becomes the imperative. People are so naive sometimes
about there own creations. The power of the spoken word
as carlos used to like to get on about. Pieces pardon the
extreme expression become like entities, tolerable or
in need of destruction.
### - we create forms and then become entirely dependant upon them
vanity-vanity (wink to buttmark;) - all is vanity:):)
He would have made a great singer guitarist. :-)
Thats the price to be a poet these days.
### - where he would have undoubtedly written - look what they done to
my song ma - heh:):) - and lol, just take a look at marylyn manson to
see what's happened to the poet and his effort to be
different/individual in this age:):):)
Money is money. Cant live with it cant live without it.
It isn't until a person gets older that the shop worn clichés
start to take on there real meaning. For me " No man is
an island"
### - (smile:) - well there was a time before money, and now it's
almost taken on a life of its own? (i.e. maybe now we know what
happened too cc's field-notes... they probably went for a walk:)
People make quite a question out of " Have you read any
of the french poets" Poetry seemed to reach a zenith then
and rimbaud was the guy shot out of the cannon. Same
with classical composition in the two preceding centuries.
Beethoven and Mozart being the two who emerged with
voluminous body's of work that people know even if they
don't know they know.
### - imho randy stopped here in the context of about when was miller
talking about - i mean, we got some key-points/events in history, a
very few intellectuals who hit the right note, and then it goes all
zen and/or funny after that, with many contributory and
converging/diverging lines + imitators by the score... a veritable
minefield of literature and publications of almost every description
to hack ones way through and then out of the woods into full
daylight - (we almost there;)
>
> ### - in one of his poems he describes how at the age of 12 he
> "illustrated the human comedy" - (i.e. he wasn't called the boy
genius for nothing eh:)
>
He was born knowing.
In various matrix style definitions I use to evaluate
consciousness. I use five states.
Born to seek
Born to encounter
Born to seek and find
Born to encounter & hold
Born complete as a living truth. ( born as truth )
Overviews of evolution and adaptation of spirit.
The worst and best being the fifth state.
### - we all have these ideas and formulations to some extent or
another - plus we persist in this even knowing that the model may be
faulty and/or incomplete - yet it pleases us to do so, and this
regardless of the hells one might even be creating for ourselves (and
others) in the process... at this point the question might actually be
a far more simpler one of merely where to stand?
> about antibiotics etc and about how we
(as a species i mean) might have still had an undamaged immune system
without the advent of antibiotics? - a hard argument
i know, and one of the ones that rather sides with progress
so called as being a form of destruction...
>
I missed those articles. I think all the additives contribute also.
### - (heh:) well it went along the lines of the one of the flagships
of science (and its seeming instant miracle of antibiotics) turning
out to have probably having ultimately destroyed our immune system? -
i.e. if you looking for demons masquerading themselves as angels with
their promises of salvation - there's one of 'em!:):)
>
### - it is said that he completely used-up the total resources of art
and culture in 3 short years! (i.e. everyone is particularly good at
something and that was his forte perhaps - he was a genius at it in
> fact:)
>
He could have re-turned the wheel.
Covering each creative line-entity in novel form.
### - why would he do that? - i mean, if you'd had many many
experiences of it, and then sought to actually and permanently "live"
in that world (on the other side) - then why would you hold back at
the last moment and (after all that effort) "not go" for whatever
reason? - as you mention later in another context, he actively sought
the point of no return and laboured to that eventuality forsaking all
else (including his art which was of the very best available in the
world)
A physically conservative adaptation would have to have
occurred. That's where I don't under estimate his religious
or whole universe type of ponderings as authentic even if he
wrote in the words of his times which seem like antiques now.
One way or another he had to do what he did adventure wise.
### - miller picks up on this too... in that he speculates about
rimbaud as almost foretelling exactly what he was going to do, as
having left himself no alternative (possibly deliberately) to doing
so - he found the door - he opened the door... all that remained was
to walk through it and to remain permanently on that side - to that
end rimbaud apparently destroyed every trace of his old ways and
life - i.e. he "invalidated" his old ways...
>
> ### plus how very revealing
that his earthly fame and (actually most) hero-status revolves
somewhat around this simple concept of seeing something through to
> the end no matter what eh;)
>
Its a worthy idea/concept.
Come hell or high water or a stairway to heaven
at least the question is answered or viewed as unanswerable
by the person seeking the knowledge implied by the question.
### - imho there is no alternative - one must (somehow) go through...
and only failure to do so remains - answering the unanswerable
question lies on the other side where opposites no longer exist as a
separate possibility/entity - the place where one "becomes" the
singularity
>
### - (smile:) - ahhh the impatience and folly of youth eh:) - at
least, that's how we tend to see it as the rather already-sedated
persons we are no? - but then perhaps our energies have already been
diverted off into other more worldly pursuits instead eh? -
>
Not yet but soon. The preparation for old age requires capital.
That or jump of a cliff, which is actually still excepted practice
in some andes tribesmen who feel they have lived long enough.
### - agreed that "some" very strong people have used that as
a bona-fide method to move on...
>let alone pursue
something else and start-over from new exploring beyond the familiar
> known, except as an empty and idle speculation that is...
>
Well... sometimes, in my case I was looking down the next
time I looked up the inevitable encounter was progressing
according to its own momentum. Suffice to say " Its a long
hard road to tipperary" Don't know what that cliché means
but I'm sure to find out someday. :-)
### - heh, something i suspect that was created by a bunch of early
ornithologists studying the last group of an almost extinct breed of
rare bird called (appropriately enough) the "one-legged rarie" - that
and the rather barbaric but traditional local native practice (or
sport) of sneaking up to them in the dead of night and doing something
to cause them to suddenly tip-over?:):) - something which almost
caught-on fashion-wise but then fizzled-out due to the inadvertent
tipping-over of the last breeding pair:)
I have many timelines like that. Creative work regarding
actions of the mystery, especially in large amounts
leaves me at least feeling like an autistic child fascinated
with cups and plates spinning on the floor.
### - (smile:) - i've read much that was written and imho "designed"
to do exactly that! - let's call it zen and the art of literature:)
When the ultimate destination is to
simply command intent openly and verbally and have ones commands
carried out by the mystery "something cc concurred with" or denied for
reason of its own, including delayed delivery due to better
situational logistics up the road.
### - agreed... direct will (or intent) is the personal goal, and that
without any of the normal and/or usual corruption that in learning
that usually accompanies it being the best of all options - one of the
old zen monks way to that being to lure their students way-out onto a
fragile limb, and then to simply hack off the limb ha ha ha:):):)
It cuts both ways that knife.
Recently my intent was to convince my 17 yr. old niece that
she needs her driving license and a high school state sponsored
equivalency diploma. Now she is home living with her mother
again doing exactly those things with
passion and determination. I also wanted her boyfriend to
understand the "some things you just got to do" way of
thinking. Same as when children are potty trained or learn
to enjoy showering. Now he is home and working
for his step dad. At what moment did I accomplish each
without launching into an old fuddy duddy guy speech
( which would have failed) which I never gave in to the
urge to do. Don't know, with my niece but with her boyfriend
we were playing music together and I was siting at the
drums following along whenever he hit a groove with a
well defined rhythm. He said he never really played with
drums before and thinking of my own progression I told
him you have to force your self to do it. He looked at me
for about two seconds and went back to playing.
### - i'd agree that it's very perplexing when these things first
start to occur, and at first i too wanted "all sorts" of special
reasons to be responsible for it... but eventually it all boils down
to assuming a greater level of responsibility for oneself and
which arrives only after one has suspended one's own
judgement to some degree?
The epiphany being that music is no different than
anything else progress is achieved sometimes only thru
forcing oneself to do what is unnatural. Ending the music
is a cool way to escape the real world line.
### - one of the first voluntary experiences i ever had was by doing
something like that - i.e. for one reason or another i was quite
miserable and feeling hopeless from not being able to find a solution
to a particular and pressing personal dilemma at the time, and at one
point it all got "so hopeless" that i really wanted to cry - but some
point of perversity in me decided to laugh at it instead, and which
started off as a bit of a forced laugh but quickly became a real
laughing at the sheer absurdity of the whole situation - then suddenly
in the middle of all this the clouds cleared and i somehow "knew
exactly" how to sort it all out! - the image i had being one of a
plate full of spaggetti all twisted and turned together in a great big
unsortable mess - and then a new image of it only really being 3 or 4
very long strands that gave the appearance of many many separate
strands - the solution being to pull "one" of them all the way out
first and then the other 2 or 3... i actually laughed like a loon all
the way home:):)
> With such ferocity one might actually succeed.
>
> ### - agreed - but then isn't that the point? - i.e. his intent was
> impeccable:)
>
Yes
> Obviously reading the autobiography would supply more
> information but his motivations seem abundant.
> The bible being the sorcerers handbook of choice
> even to this day for convoluting the "Rigid verses flexible"
> as Gander might say.
>
> ### - my way out of that was to imagine (like miller) 50 rimbauds
let loose in the world...
>
I'm being attacked by clichés today-the many are called but few are
chosen line. What part was predestination is the mysterious part.
### - i can't go myself any for predestination as such... or if so,
only in the sense that once intent (or will) has set things in motion
then things begin to move towards that eventuality (our society is
imho a very good example of that) - yet this general intent or will
"can" nevertheless still be offset for one personally by having a
greater personal intent or sustained will in another direction (i.e.
it's very possible to go against the grain to some extent sort of
thing) - the other answer to many called but few are chosen is
imho unbelievably simple... one simple chooses oneself:):)
>- my own
> solution being to remain first and foremost the aggressive and
active
> prober etc, while all the time patiently waiting for it to all be
> resolved - (a contradiction in terms i know - but it's somehow
> resolved in practice;)
>
The only strategy solution to a unresolved logical problem being
intuition and its various suggested improvisations
### - one has simply to learn how to invoke intent (or will) for a
novel solution:)
> ### - the lonely message from nietzche writing his last from
the loony-bin with his; everything has been done, all that remains now
> is for them to get rid of me;)
>
A horrible time to be alive if one had hopes of enlightenment
for the mass of humanity. Still a distant point on a grey horizon.
### - and is it really any closer a reality these days i wonder?;)
>
### - an energy we've been collectively shown to re-route into other
> and more seemingly lucrative pursuits perhaps?;)
>
Yes. Even if that is the desire, the profitization,
timing is still the key element if the creations already exist.
### - well yes... a world of merchant-minds all doing their business
as per usual... the solution to every expected problem being more
commerce
> ### - in that sense then, rimbauds method was an unrelenting
abrasion
of ego to the point that it dissolved altogether or at least no longer
mattered any more... accordingly then he deliberately placed himself
in difficult and exacting circumstances the better to expedite the
> process (guts of steel no?:)
>
Yes. There's a point of no return involved also. Something I
sure he was aware of and probably hoped to cross so that
his decision was irreversible.
### - that's it alright... and imho he didn't spare himself any in
reaching that point of no return - i mean, if it doesn't become
irreversible how can you be assured of carrying on from there...
>
### - it could be said of him that he discovered and then deliberately
opened a door for anyone coming along behind him? - imho he was
> definitely writing for later generations...
>
Yes. I would agree. Never really knew-Like A Rolling Stone-
was a 100 percent ode to rimbaud.
His-dylans-dispensing period also from the tone of it.
### - dunno about it being a 100% ode to him - other than dylan's
whole life is an ode to him in that sense;)
His disappearance legends taken as an act of self
promotion across the ages lends itself to the idea that
he understood sooner or later someone would come
along with a comparable set of ideas.
### - possibly that, or possibly he was just making a very powerful
point instead of actually writing for later generations - i.e. like
maybe he was just leaving a footprint in the sand? - a footprint for
"some-one" maybe coming along behind him as opposed to a whole
generation of enlightened beings coming along after him? - some one in
the sense of the occasional individual happening along instead of
assuming that everyone will one day make it? - (and then deliberately
creating that picture in the mind of the reader as a form of
work-around or redaction-device designed to make the door that much
clearer to the weary solo traveller?) - unfortunately i see no real
great plan for humanity other than the evolving plans of the factory
owners to further entrap the workers in what is in reality only a
captive society (i.e. just the same as captured/indentured
slaves/workers where they have to buy all their normal food and
supplies from the same employer/owner)
Not exactly the same but of the same vain that new life
must shed the old life or it will die.
### - what are you... a fucking crab??? (jus' kidding:) - as it goes,
i quite like cc's line (or version) of; having to invalidate the old
way/life in order to find or establish true continuity of the new? -
i.e. the ticket to impeccability tale and the metaphorical/symbolic
death of the old life - to reach the place of having no more doubts
As for Einstein, (snip damn einstein bubble 5600 lines long:)
Damm I doth digress when his foul name is made mention.
### - good grief man!:) - well i definitely wont mention "him"
again! - (at least, not unless i want to rattle your cage heh heh
heh:):) - i mean, fuck einstein... (i only mentioned him as an equally
untoppable but better known icon;)
> ### - camus...
Nobel prize winner. Quick web scan reveals the equation
all rebellion eventually leads to a new tyranny
This I can grasp easily. Web extracts show that
the theme is explored with grace of language.
The periods of your development rimbaud-camus
A disease and a cure. :-) kidding.
Or a powerful tequila followed by some salt.
### - yes guy... anarchy is not the answer, and never can be... and
ultimately it just makes thing worse for everyone... "here" is where
the hippies stood all that time ago - and "this" is what they
realised... and this being the very factor that gave them the push
they needed to go off down "another road" instead of hanging around
trying to fix or patch things up? (i have described this before in
terms of old and long overgrown railway tracks leading off into a
"different" distance;)
I was influenced by a sideman in the psychology
circus eric fromme and "Escape from Freedom"
Which cover the same theme with a different angle.
Robust literature sometimes puts me to sleep in that
I've reached the formulaic stage. There are formulas
that have been discovered and those that have not been
discovered.
### - i hear you... but i can't be going for formulas myself as i tend
to see all that as being but a further form of corruption? - i.e.
whoever said that ritual has a corrupting influence wasn't (imho
anyway:) so far wrong with that, marching endlessly up and down
in uniform for ultimately "fuck-all" being the image i always
get when thinking of that alternative:)
In preceding eras the need for entertainment
allowed many writers to cover the same theme from many
different angles. Frommes work being a precursor subset.
But powerfully scientific in that he broke from the psychiatric
community with the fundamental understanding that real change
is slow change and there are many backwards motions.
Others had that as a passing theme but for him it was a driving
or unifying theme. That great change was the illusion of
many small changes finally coalescing.
### - well ya' never know... and i see what you getting at (i've been
through something similar perhaps) - and while looking at the world
and dreaming of a better life for all of us etc (and no matter how
that view is arrived at) is all very well and all that, it does
blessed little in terms of practicality when the real job in hand is
one of digging oneself out of the mire properly and completely instead
of stopping half-way to admire the view and imagining great things for
the world?:) - i mean life's too unpredictably short to possibly waste
any of it on not freeing oneself first and foremost - (if after that
you wanna' play jesus then that's up to you;)
> ### - she basically asks him what it's all about and
he tells her the story of the village medicine-man (or shaman) who
uses his powers to have a vision and a dream - a vision and a dream
> that heals the whole village - cool:):)
>
The closest to rimbaud of contemporary times.
Goes back to the idea of the poet must stand and
recite his work these days if he is to gain an audience
### - agreed about morrison... but then i reckon punk had quite a bit
of rimbaud in it no?:) + there are no more poets...
### - (no wonder rimbaud
> is/was generally discouraged reading eh:)
>
Yes for possibly the previous three or four generations.
My observation of young people is based on the words
and thoughts of the science of generational psychology.
Our generation being natural loners or nomads due to
the influences of the WWII community types and then the
quiet art supporting silent types that followed and then
the endlessly rebellious types-hippie generation.
### - i see the hippies as the reaction to wwii - i.e. they were the
children of that war, created during and just after the war... with a
feeling and a desire for freedom given to them by their parents and
peers as a direct result and backlash of the war experience (i.e.
pink-floyd give the converse with the line; the flames have all long
gone but the pain lingers on to reveal the corruption also handed on
to that next generation)
That all leading up to social change overload and the eventual
retrenchment suggested by Camus in that all rebellion leads
to new forms of tyranny which is a superset of Frommes
subset-real change is slow change.
### - agreed... and by "whoever" recorded that and in whatever form -
the point being that all our plans don't and "can't" work and that we
have to realise that there's therefore a real need to "let go" of
clinging to rather comforting ideas like that? - i mean, what seems
like a divine plan is only the gradual but steady demise of our world
that we live purely in denial of (sorry to be so direct) - i.e. we
been facing the wrong way...
Rimbaud would be harmless on today's young they are as
communitarian as the WWII and easily lead. Look at pop music.
The rave community and its lack of real complex expression in
favor of the joining and oneness of ecstasy and dancing.
The prominence of candy and children's toys and not so secret
top secret locations.
CC by the way followed the Silent-Guru art supporting archetype
of the silent generation. Were all susceptible to our surroundings.
### - (smile:) - well they said you can tell the state of a nation by
its art eh:)
>
### - well presumably the artist is forced to create "because" of his
vision and not as an aspiration to having one? - plus what form it
takes after that being something to do with the innermost expression
> and/or predilection of the person involved no?
>
Yes that is much better stated. Something about saying
" I am following my vision" or "The muse has commanded"
just doesn't seem to appropriate here.
Create and complete a body of art as a replacement for
previous influences or go completely spiritually insane
ala captain curtz-apocolypse now.
That is my understanding-no choice involved
Circumstances always seeming to bow to that imperative.
Although typing and editing previous works for historical
purpose of understanding and reviewing the past can be tedious
or actually-painful but necessary.
Art these days-wideview is more remedy than vision.
With plenty of pap supported lucratively by the
people who choose entertainment over discovery.
I'm not arguing against or for just stating cultural
conditions as I see them. A definitive lull before the storm.
### - still hopeful huh?:) - when i said something quite similar to my
history teacher about things perhaps all coming to a head and
exploding for the better etc... he gave me the line of it's more
likely to go with a whimper than a bang, and that such is the
predictable line of reason in denial that if it "has" to go, will
therefore expect at least a bang and a "big show" all the while never
suspecting the truth? - (a hard teaching i know)
>
### - i guess it matters not how one comes by that understanding
(unless of course one gets hooked to bewailing one's fate and
> circumstances etc)
That is an understood danger. In 12 steps there are remedy
and closing procedures although most don't follow them.
The idea of listing harms received as well as harms paid
out-done to others by recapitualator. Early on I feared the
energy drag effects of casual mental emotional
or physical aggression. At first obsessively but later
just habit and easy to do as energy piles up in storage.
CC concurred on energy conservation although from a
different angle.
### - of course it's about energy... it's just that energy is a very
subtle thing that you don't really notice when you have it... (but
lose some and you'll soon know about it eh:)
>
> ### - ah-ha ha i think got you figured now my friend:) -
I thought you had me pegged previously. :-)
### - lol, well it's not really like that (although it's not exactly a
conversational ploy either:) - from my pov it's like layers that peel
away to reveal more and more of the hidden centre - a centre one
intuits from the off, but that becomes clearer and clearer until a
moment hopefully comes when it's actually perceived instead of just
being intuited:)
A well drawn predator with redeeming qualities and an
understandable descent into madness. I rooted for him
and was delighted he understood agent "Star-Ling"
She wanted to save the lambs but could only save one.
### - heh, i liked lecter... a monster - but he was alive and he knew
it:)
and don't worry arthur, i wont be coming after you... i happen to
> think the world is more interesting with you in it - lol:):):)
My zebra like flesh is soured by the sulfurous gases of
hell and the the alternating sickly sweet smell of lilacs
and orchids from many surreptitious raids on heavens
unknown passages and corridors.
### - yum! - my favourite dish - sweet and sour meat:):)
- i.e. it's a choice we can make to
continue "being" or not! - choose not to and basically you can do
> whatever you want until you are oneday no more,
The lack of purpose is mind numbing
### - (smile:) - yeah i know... and precisely! - plus why is it we
always feel guilty if we ain't being productive eh?:)
>
but consciously select "to be" (not necessarily
the easiest choice either:) and one perforce must accept in advance
any of the slings and arrows that "definitely-will" be thrown at you
> by life -
There are of course the arms that can be taken up to do battle.
### - well yeah... but then anarchy is out of the picture - so it
ain't really like that?
As you detailed before in the nebulous movements between
action and aware.
### - heh... perhaps after all there is the purposeless purpose:)
>
### - rimbaud in the temple of the lord angrily turning over the
> tables and casting out the money-changers perhaps?;)
>
Righteousness in the extreme and well stated.
The avenging angels of hell and heaven in one man.
### - well... and as miller excuses, he was young:)
Eclectic Warriors Vs. Electric Warriors
A new time of burning that which is no longer useful is here.
Most represented by the rave community and their desire to
just be. Not a very sustainable state in a world where
things age and decay.
### - agreed on the early rave scene... the electric hippies i've
heard them called before - the e-vibe being no more than a chemically
induced/enhanced samadi (everyone feels lovely in samadi:)
> ### - i prefer the terms impeccable, dedicated and ruthless;)
>
To each his own. In business he would be called a "Closer"
One who makes sure the deal is signed on the dotted line.
Seeing as he is well represented in cyberspace his immortality
shall last as long as does the human race.
### - i was referring to cc with that line;)
it has also been said of Rimbaud that he was possibly the first
> > beatnik:)
> >
>
> The elusive fifth beatle maybe :-)
>
> ### - heh:) - but in reality it's a line of descent perhaps no?;)
>
Yes each river can be traced when I'm done editing poetry I shall
read more of his stuff. For me poetry is everywhere and must be
dodged like raindrops. Although one of twenty or fifty is truly
impossible to toss away in a drawer.
Like old poems condensing into a superstate.
That's why editing/transcribing old stuff is muddling of the mind.
### - my hint was towards the beat generation and what comes to us
from them? - i.e. this is where jazz starts to enter the picture, with
people like kerouack (on the road) and ginsberg's "howl" also coming
through...
> ### - well i admire your faith...
I have no faith.
I know what I know.
"The onslaught of knowledge"
The existence of the supreme is fact.
I have been to my original container ship/soul.
Various other mechanical and practical realities.
Thats it in a nutshell-pun intended
Like a black hole that never exploded.
### - there's nothing to prove... i mean, it's all very personal - and
like you, i live in a very personal world also - plus there is nothing
to aquire when everything is freely available like so much fruit just
growing on trees;)
>but like rimbaud i tend to see no
> "great plan" for humanity and/or the world as such -
I agree.
>just the clashing
and vying for supremacy of certain very all-too-human ideas merely
> fighting it out on the world-stage,
The War of Ideas
### - a pointless war for the supremacy of one idea over another - in
this time now we are "surrounded" by ideas - (all of them crap!:):)
(i.e. the
attention of the rest of the modern world suddenly focuses on it) and
sees this dreadful regime going-on and can see straight away that it's
> pure crap! -
That is the current state of affairs of this world exactly.
So flybys and interference with attempts at planetary annihilation
are allowed by those willing to absorb the cost and consequences.
### - you see it... and you know it... trouble is (these days:) we
also need a goddamn alien outsider to come down here and tell us
that - (problem with that is... we always "kill" those people even if
they do appear - lol:)
>but those who had ruled and/or endured the system for
> over 400 years were quite adjusted and/or used to it as being just
the
> normal way;)
>
That's why I got hung up on Eric Fromme
He states that theme in many sub texts and sub sub texts.
Originally deriving the theme from moses being forced to lead
his people thru the desert for two generations so they would
unlearn the lessons of slavery while captives of the egyptians.
Not being allowed to enter the promised land himself
because of his mind state and inability to adapt to freedom.
### - yeah well we all know the bible is a load of old cobblers no? -
i mean, there might be certain things in there (history mostly imho)
but then 4000 years of applied chinese whispers to it don't help
much - then you get the 4th century deliberate alterations to it and
the next thing ya' know we all worshipping a 2000 year old robin hood
rebel-type character as being god and used as a form of civilising
control working hand in hand with government! - and as i previously
said (or agreed with) - all ritual is very corrupting
regards...
Intraphase
>
> Intraphase wrote
>
> In practical terms from 10-40 yrs of age the congestion
> on the streets and in the air is markedly expanded.
>
> ### - imho we fucked it man... there's no hope in that direction
> whatsoever, plus no amount of recycling our household trash is
> ever going to help any:)
>
Things are tight as we both agree.
Does it reach some social critical mass and then what comes of the
explosion. Leaving it forever undone or a slow pushing the wagon
back up the hill after one to many rides.
> >
> the only question being will humanity survive it, and if so,
> what kind of humanity will it be when nature itself has been bottled
> and sold (and probably exported to mars:) in easy-open packs or
> > something (heh i too can be cynical eh:)
>
> That may be the ultimate unconscious plan we all share
> deep in our psyches.
>
> ### - well you are still hopeful maybe (i.e. optimistic:) perhaps even
> seeing the genetic code as being really a code that is working itself
> out over time? - but then we have been well groomed to think
> explicitly in terms of plans and straight lines and logical-type
> approaches, and although it actually functions to a certain extent
> shall we say, it still appears to be an effort to merely reduce and
> distil (i.e. limit) nature and ourselves in some way - e.g. "reason"
> is (or has become) the god we now all worship before all others
> having come to always expect very reasonable answers
>
Yes. leaves room for the opposite.
Not that it supplies the cure or panacea but at least momentary relief
from the wey shoes and sock as we climb ever higher up the decks of a
sinking ship.
> >- on the other hand, if you
> of the school that sees progress in the positive and so believes that
> progress so-called will eventuate in the liberation of mankind via and
> > through its own scientific technology, then i could accept that
>
> I covered this and agree
>
> ### - i'm rather afraid we don't:) - i meant only that i could accept
> that for "you" if that's how you feel, all i see is humanity painting
> itself into a corner (i.e. just like south africa did) only there is
> no outsider to come along and tell them that it's all crap, and now,
> having killed-off all the poets who might just have told them, they
> looking for a fantasy fucking "alien" to land here and to point the
> damn way (the perfect answer really as this is sure to never
> happen:) - i mean we been praying on this planet for the last 10,000
> years or something for someone to save us and it ain't happening...
>
I don,t believe its an alien culture but some innate mechanism.
An irrational belief as beliefs usually are but on that one in a million
long shot I want to be ready just in case.
> > (although exactly how the building of ever more securer prisons will
> > ever result in a final liberation is beyond me -
>
> My experience with crime and criminals tells me that prisons are
> good things because there are those who shall remain violent
> predators to the end.
>
> ### - yeah... but the question remains; why are they violent, see? - i
> mean, they weren't actually "born" like that so something must have
> happened to them along the way? - but we know what happened
> to them, they were inducted en-mass into a workhouse-system
> (or ethic) that's run by the bumbles of this world - (please sir,
> can i have some more;)
>
Considering we are really only designed for 30-120 minutes of quality work
per day. From that standpoint it seems obvious. Watching documentaries
on the nomadic nature of just our most recent past its obvious nature
has not adapted to the shift in strategy of humans.
It may never and the species in this planetary incidence of it may perish.
> >although strangely
> > enough the film the great escape is on today over here:)
>
> One of my favorites. Steve Mcqueen passing the time in solitary
> with his glove and ball.
>
> ### - well, if everyone's in prison then that only leaves the great
> escape type scenarios no? (i.e. escape by any means possible whether
> it be tunnels, disguise, over the wire or whatever ingenious and/or
> harebrained method anyone can come up with heh heh heh;)
>
Oh yeah.. No squaking about the color of my life jacket here.
> >- i mean,
> we've already had several french revolutions in various forms and it
> > just don't work beyond a point;)
> >
>
> Lack of personal responsibility and the training in the arts
> of courage and determination i.e.: intent and impeccability.
>
> ### - yes, imho and observation two key things that have been
> deliberately targeted and then dislocated as a direct means of
> imposing control - (miller's implicit idea being that sex
> performed/approached "correctly" (as opposed to all the repression and
> its resultant kinkyness) being the reset button that can be pressed -
> (a smashing idea in that if a person can actually get "sex" right (or
> correct) in their life, then that the rest of their life will probably
> then balance itself out more correctly in all its other departments
Not as far fetched as it my seem the first time the idea is encountered.
> once this major area of sex has been properly sorted/balanced... (this
> is also examined in orwell's 1984 to some extent where a cause of a
> lot of the sociological problems of control are to be corrected by the
> removal of the female orgasm:)
>
> Yes disgust and its friend healthy anger as motivation fuel.
>
> ### - the chinese seem to consider "revenge" to be the best of all
> motivators (probably true) - at least, (grin:) all the best kung-fu
> films seem to have that as the central and powerfully motivating theme
> to get the student to work harder and so to learn beyond his limits:)
>
As CC put forth "a worthy opponent" an idea that appears again and again.
I guess thats how I look at this existence of my so called self.
> Seen most of Mickey Rourkes movies but not that one.
>
> ### - micky roark seems to be one of those actors who selects his
> roles with care - (imho his best being rumble-fish, one of h.e.
> Hilton's trilogy, one of the others being "the outsiders" which imho
> they totally fucked-up in the filming of it by the way;)
>
Pacing collapsed in that one.
Yes I liked him from the first.
Only the effect others would blame on him is his liability.
Pete Townsend said it "Any geezer that would shoot someone
because a song told them too was going to do it anyway"
Storytelling has its little vices clamps and devices.
Not a formula I base actions on.
> > about antibiotics etc and about how we
> (as a species i mean) might have still had an undamaged immune system
> without the advent of antibiotics? - a hard argument
> i know, and one of the ones that rather sides with progress
> so called as being a form of destruction...
> >
>
> I missed those articles. I think all the additives contribute also.
>
> ### - (heh:) well it went along the lines of the one of the flagships
> of science (and its seeming instant miracle of antibiotics) turning
> out to have probably having ultimately destroyed our immune system? -
> i.e. if you looking for demons masquerading themselves as angels with
> their promises of salvation - there's one of 'em!:):)
>
What do you do when you get an infection?
I mean it rhetorically but sincerely too.
Fuck, I get on the pavement and shake the doctor down.
> >
> ### - it is said that he completely used-up the total resources of art
> and culture in 3 short years! (i.e. everyone is particularly good at
> something and that was his forte perhaps - he was a genius at it in
> > fact:)
> >
>
> He could have re-turned the wheel.
> Covering each creative line-entity in novel form.
>
> ### - why would he do that? - i mean, if you'd had many many
> experiences of it, and then sought to actually and permanently "live"
> in that world (on the other side) - then why would you hold back at
> the last moment and (after all that effort) "not go" for whatever
> reason? - as you mention later in another context, he actively sought
> the point of no return and laboured to that eventuality forsaking all
> else (including his art which was of the very best available in the
> world)
>
Yes. I guess not having read in depth the context is not there
to understand the second act of a great drama.
> A physically conservative adaptation would have to have
> occurred. That's where I don't under estimate his religious
> or whole universe type of ponderings as authentic even if he
> wrote in the words of his times which seem like antiques now.
> One way or another he had to do what he did adventure wise.
>
> ### - miller picks up on this too... in that he speculates about
> rimbaud as almost foretelling exactly what he was going to do, as
> having left himself no alternative (possibly deliberately) to doing
> so - he found the door - he opened the door... all that remained was
> to walk through it and to remain permanently on that side - to that
> end rimbaud apparently destroyed every trace of his old ways and
> life - i.e. he "invalidated" his old ways...
>
The foretelling is the crux of the beast comment I made.
Its erie what the inner mind will foreshadow accurately.
On the other hand each period of life has its ups and downs.
> >
> > ### plus how very revealing
> that his earthly fame and (actually most) hero-status revolves
> somewhat around this simple concept of seeing something through to
> > the end no matter what eh;)
> >
>
> Its a worthy idea/concept.
> Come hell or high water or a stairway to heaven
> at least the question is answered or viewed as unanswerable
> by the person seeking the knowledge implied by the question.
>
> ### - imho there is no alternative - one must (somehow) go through...
> and only failure to do so remains - answering the unanswerable
> question lies on the other side where opposites no longer exist as a
> separate possibility/entity - the place where one "becomes" the
> singularity
>
Yes. He was rocketing out there and back repetitively like
a string or arc then the time when he was here and there simultaneously.
Then the time when he was just there.
I,m reading when inspired various phase state stuff.
But I understand it intuitively.
Wow thats some cliche if your not pulling my leg.
> I have many timelines like that. Creative work regarding
> actions of the mystery, especially in large amounts
> leaves me at least feeling like an autistic child fascinated
> with cups and plates spinning on the floor.
>
> ### - (smile:) - i've read much that was written and imho "designed"
> to do exactly that! - let's call it zen and the art of literature:)
>
> When the ultimate destination is to
> simply command intent openly and verbally and have ones commands
> carried out by the mystery "something cc concurred with" or denied for
> reason of its own, including delayed delivery due to better
> situational logistics up the road.
>
> ### - agreed... direct will (or intent) is the personal goal, and that
> without any of the normal and/or usual corruption that in learning
> that usually accompanies it being the best of all options - one of the
> old zen monks way to that being to lure their students way-out onto a
> fragile limb, and then to simply hack off the limb ha ha ha:):):)
>
I wonder if it can be taught. The old grace cliche.
I find the best method is to try to arrive at at least 10-12
judgements and let them fight it out, The last one standing being too
punch drunk and crippled to be acted upon. Meanwhile what had to be is
now what is and I try not to regret any worrying done figuring
even indians do rain dances knowing that the dance is meaningless.
> The epiphany being that music is no different than
> anything else progress is achieved sometimes only thru
> forcing oneself to do what is unnatural. Ending the music
> is a cool way to escape the real world line.
>
> ### - one of the first voluntary experiences i ever had was by doing
> something like that - i.e. for one reason or another i was quite
> miserable and feeling hopeless from not being able to find a solution
> to a particular and pressing personal dilemma at the time, and at one
> point it all got "so hopeless" that i really wanted to cry - but some
> point of perversity in me decided to laugh at it instead, and which
> started off as a bit of a forced laugh but quickly became a real
> laughing at the sheer absurdity of the whole situation - then suddenly
> in the middle of all this the clouds cleared and i somehow "knew
> exactly" how to sort it all out! - the image i had being one of a
> plate full of spaggetti all twisted and turned together in a great big
> unsortable mess - and then a new image of it only really being 3 or 4
> very long strands that gave the appearance of many many separate
> strands - the solution being to pull "one" of them all the way out
> first and then the other 2 or 3... i actually laughed like a loon all
> the way home:):)
>
I,ve been there recently but without the image as a marker.
I simply walked out and watched the house of cards I built collapse.
Had I refused to leave I would have been harmed and gained nothing.
By leaving I gained immensely and was not harmed.
Place of no pity I suppose is the best definition.
Although I did have to program in a no guilt response as the guilt
reflex kicked in after leaving that wave of motion.
> > With such ferocity one might actually succeed.
> >
> > ### - agreed - but then isn't that the point? - i.e. his intent was
> > impeccable:)
> >
>
> Yes
>
> > Obviously reading the autobiography would supply more
> > information but his motivations seem abundant.
> > The bible being the sorcerers handbook of choice
> > even to this day for convoluting the "Rigid verses flexible"
> > as Gander might say.
> >
> > ### - my way out of that was to imagine (like miller) 50 rimbauds
> let loose in the world...
> >
>
> I'm being attacked by clichés today-the many are called but few are
> chosen line. What part was predestination is the mysterious part.
>
> ### - i can't go myself any for predestination as such... or if so,
> only in the sense that once intent (or will) has set things in motion
> then things begin to move towards that eventuality (our society is
> imho a very good example of that)
Yes
- yet this general intent or will
> "can" nevertheless still be offset for one personally by having a
> greater personal intent or sustained will in another direction (i.e.
> it's very possible to go against the grain to some extent sort of
> thing) - the other answer to many called but few are chosen is
> imho unbelievably simple... one simple chooses oneself:):)
>
I wrote a whole essay here on that once.
That before power chooses you must choose yourself.
Then power can choose.
> >- my own
> > solution being to remain first and foremost the aggressive and
> active
> > prober etc, while all the time patiently waiting for it to all be
> > resolved - (a contradiction in terms i know - but it's somehow
> > resolved in practice;)
> >
>
> The only strategy solution to a unresolved logical problem being
> intuition and its various suggested improvisations
>
> ### - one has simply to learn how to invoke intent (or will) for a
> novel solution:)
>
Yes. There have been times due to many balls being tossed in the air
simultaneously that I have forgotten that basic.
That is when I have gained knowledge of a benefactor that retriggers
that wave within me knowing If I could i would make that choice.
> > ### - the lonely message from nietzche writing his last from
> the loony-bin with his; everything has been done, all that remains now
> > is for them to get rid of me;)
> >
>
> A horrible time to be alive if one had hopes of enlightenment
> for the mass of humanity. Still a distant point on a grey horizon.
>
> ### - and is it really any closer a reality these days i wonder?;)
>
Its either right around the corner or very far off.
It feels sometimes like a gardener is pouring water and sprays and
potions all over but the weeds are strong and the plants struggling.
> >
> ### - an energy we've been collectively shown to re-route into other
> > and more seemingly lucrative pursuits perhaps?;)
> >
>
> Yes. Even if that is the desire, the profitization,
> timing is still the key element if the creations already exist.
>
> ### - well yes... a world of merchant-minds all doing their business
> as per usual... the solution to every expected problem being more
> commerce
>
Thats funny considering the markets and peoples reaction to them.
This last year has been a good time to watch the ocean that is commerce for
many varied tunes and songs. Some noble some ugly but all revealing of the
basic motivations and behaviors that accompany them.
> > ### - in that sense then, rimbauds method was an unrelenting
> abrasion
> of ego to the point that it dissolved altogether or at least no longer
> mattered any more... accordingly then he deliberately placed himself
> in difficult and exacting circumstances the better to expedite the
> > process (guts of steel no?:)
> >
>
> Yes. There's a point of no return involved also. Something I
> sure he was aware of and probably hoped to cross so that
> his decision was irreversible.
>
> ### - that's it alright... and imho he didn't spare himself any in
> reaching that point of no return - i mean, if it doesn't become
> irreversible how can you be assured of carrying on from there...
>
:-) absolutely.
> >
> ### - it could be said of him that he discovered and then deliberately
> opened a door for anyone coming along behind him? - imho he was
> > definitely writing for later generations...
> >
>
> Yes. I would agree. Never really knew-Like A Rolling Stone-
> was a 100 percent ode to rimbaud.
> His-dylans-dispensing period also from the tone of it.
>
> ### - dunno about it being a 100% ode to him - other than dylan's
> whole life is an ode to him in that sense;)
>
Lyrics seem pretty specific to the times and place.
More a transference of dylan projecting his own image onto rimbaud.
> His disappearance legends taken as an act of self
> promotion across the ages lends itself to the idea that
> he understood sooner or later someone would come
> along with a comparable set of ideas.
>
> ### - possibly that, or possibly he was just making a very powerful
> point instead of actually writing for later generations - i.e. like
> maybe he was just leaving a footprint in the sand? - a footprint for
> "some-one" maybe coming along behind him as opposed to a whole
> generation of enlightened beings coming along after him? - some one in
> the sense of the occasional individual happening along instead of
> assuming that everyone will one day make it? -
I,ve edited out the universal salvation aspects of my own work.
I did it respectfully but the idea seemd a truthful one when I was
young because I felt hopeless and that was my only hope to ride a
great wave that chose all. Then when I did what was necessary as a
process of gaining everything/nothing mindset of being able to be
on or off a self or a silence. Not by chance but being able to
force/command it like a dynamo whirring down to a final click.
>(and then deliberately
> creating that picture in the mind of the reader as a form of
> work-around or redaction-device designed to make the door that much
> clearer to the weary solo traveller?)
Now your sounding like the optimist but on the personal level.
Though I do agree in the same degree with that as one of the
manifold reason and most possibly one of the top three.
Struck me that he had 18 or 28 work copies done by hand to give to
another person to safeguard.
>- unfortunately i see no real
> great plan for humanity other than the evolving plans of the factory
> owners to further entrap the workers in what is in reality only a
> captive society
Maybe the mysterious force shall use greed and fear which already exist
in abundance as just another ploy to ensnare humankind into doing what
must be done, whatever that actually is.
>elaborate(i.e. just the same as captured/indentured
> slaves/workers where they have to buy all their normal food and
> supplies from the same employer/owner)
>
> Not exactly the same but of the same vain that new life
> must shed the old life or it will die.
>
> ### - what are you... a fucking crab??? (jus' kidding:) - as it goes,
> i quite like cc's line (or version) of; having to invalidate the old
> way/life in order to find or establish true continuity of the new? -
> i.e. the ticket to impeccability tale and the metaphorical/symbolic
> death of the old life - to reach the place of having no more doubts
>
What book was it in. I pretty much only absorb what people discuss
except for my original reading in winter 82-83 of portions of 1-4.
> As for Einstein, (snip damn einstein bubble 5600 lines long:)
>
"A bubble is a bubble is a bubble by any other name its still a bubble">
Damm I doth digress when his foul name is made mention.
>
> ### - good grief man!:) - well i definitely wont mention "him"
> again! - (at least, not unless i want to rattle your cage heh heh
> heh:):) - i mean, fuck einstein... (i only mentioned him as an equally
> untoppable but better known icon;)
>
> > ### - camus...
>
> Nobel prize winner. Quick web scan reveals the equation
> all rebellion eventually leads to a new tyranny
> This I can grasp easily. Web extracts show that
> the theme is explored with grace of language.
> The periods of your development rimbaud-camus
> A disease and a cure. :-) kidding.
> Or a powerful tequila followed by some salt.
>
> ### - yes guy... anarchy is not the answer, and never can be... and
> ultimately it just makes thing worse for everyone... "here" is where
> the hippies stood all that time ago - and "this" is what they
> realised...
Ughmmm. Being a child in the sixties was to see heaven and hell or
chaos and order walking down the streets hand in hand.
Trick wa to avoid hell and chaos and not stay in order or heaven so
long as to lose ones ability to be and become different things.
>and this being the very factor that gave them the push
> they needed to go off down "another road" instead of hanging around
> trying to fix or patch things up? (i have described this before in
> terms of old and long overgrown railway tracks leading off into a
> "different" distance;)
>
In america the themes and tracks are blatant and the ghostly whistles
echo from one to the other.
> I was influenced by a sideman in the psychology
> circus eric fromme and "Escape from Freedom"
> Which cover the same theme with a different angle.
> Robust literature sometimes puts me to sleep in that
> I've reached the formulaic stage. There are formulas
> that have been discovered and those that have not been
> discovered.
>
> ### - i hear you... but i can't be going for formulas myself as i tend
> to see all that as being but a further form of corruption?
Yes they are my concession to corruption.
Keeps the ravens and vultures on the window sill and out of the room.
The other birds stay away from fear of those two.
- i.e.
> whoever said that ritual has a corrupting influence wasn't (imho
> anyway:) so far wrong with that, marching endlessly up and down
> in uniform for ultimately "fuck-all" being the image i always
> get when thinking of that alternative:)
>
> In preceding eras the need for entertainment
> allowed many writers to cover the same theme from many
> different angles. Frommes work being a precursor subset.
> But powerfully scientific in that he broke from the psychiatric
> community with the fundamental understanding that real change
> is slow change and there are many backwards motions.
> Others had that as a passing theme but for him it was a driving
> or unifying theme. That great change was the illusion of
> many small changes finally coalescing.
>
> ### - well ya' never know... and i see what you getting at (i've been
> through something similar perhaps) - and while looking at the world
> and dreaming of a better life for all of us etc
ditto
>(and no matter how
> that view is arrived at) is all very well and all that, it does
> blessed little in terms of practicality when the real job in hand is
> one of digging oneself out of the mire properly and completely instead
> of stopping half-way to admire the view and imagining great things for
> the world?:)
double ditto
- i mean life's too unpredictably short to possibly waste
> any of it on not freeing oneself first and foremost - (if after that
> you wanna' play jesus then that's up to you;)
>
No no no it aint me babe.
Go lightly from that ledge.
Everyone has to make that choice.
Those who fail to pass that hill own it
until the next fool arrives and takes their place.
Later Bro
slider
Intraphase wrote
>
### - imho we fucked it man... there's no hope in that direction
whatsoever, plus no amount of recycling our household trash is
> ever going to help any:)
>
Things are tight as we both agree.
Does it reach some social critical mass and then what comes
of the explosion. Leaving it forever undone or a slow
pushing the wagon back up the hill after one to many rides.
### - nah, no explosions... just a rather pathetic whimper... (i.e.
it's ego that demands/expects/presupposes etc a big show of it if it
has to go)
- e.g. "reason"
is (or has become) the god we now all worship before all others
> having come to always expect very reasonable answers
>
Yes. leaves room for the opposite.
Not that it supplies the cure or panacea but at least
momentary relief from the wey shoes and sock as we
climb ever higher up the decks of a sinking ship.
### - some might just call it - living in active denial?
i mean we been praying on this planet for the last 10,000
years or something for someone to save us and it ain't happening...
>
I don,t believe its an alien culture but some innate mechanism.
An irrational belief as beliefs usually are but on that one in
a million long shot I want to be ready just in case.
### - imho don't waste your time or energy on any of that one art...
there's no aliens... just the almost perfect social red-herring and
disinformation machine at work to snare uneducated and gullible
people - screw that bullshit crap!:)
### - yeah... but the question remains; why are they violent, see? - i
mean, they weren't actually "born" like that so something must have
happened to them along the way? - but we know what happened
to them, they were inducted en-mass into a workhouse-system
> (or ethic) that's run by the bumbles of this world - (please sir,
> can i have some more;)
>
Considering we are really only designed for 30-120 minutes
of quality work per day. From that standpoint it seems obvious.
Watching documentaries on the nomadic nature of just our
most recent past its obvious nature has not adapted to the shift
in strategy of humans. It may never and the species in
this planetary incidence of it may perish.
### - that's it in a nutshell... only recently it was bad enough - but
now everything's gone "super-duper!" - and "mega" big! - way way "way"
beyond the grasp and comprehension of the average man in the street -
plus the proverbial fish out of water will of course clutch at
proffered straws (even wacky alien ones:)
(i.e. escape by any means possible whether
it be tunnels, disguise, over the wire or whatever ingenious and/or
harebrained method anyone can come up with heh heh heh;)
>
Oh yeah.. No squaking about the color of my life jacket here.
### - heh heh heh - well fashion isn't everything eh:):)
its resultant kinkyness) being the reset button that can be pressed -
(a smashing idea in that if a person can actually get "sex" right (or
correct) in their life, then that the rest of their life will probably
then balance itself out more correctly in all its other departments
>
Not as far fetched as it my seem the first time the idea
is encountered.
### - glad you caught that one... (i actually hated/resented that idea
the first time i encountered it:)
the chinese seem to consider "revenge" to be the best of all
motivators (probably true) - at least, (grin:) all the best kung-fu
films seem to have that as the central and powerfully motivating theme
to get the student to work harder and so to learn beyond his limits:)
>
As CC put forth "a worthy opponent" an idea that appears
again and again. I guess thats how I look at this existence
of my so called self.
### - a nice stance to take if one can - obviously there is
motivation, and then there is "motivation!" - (i.e. apparently only
the latter can generate the thrust needed to break orbit?;)
>
### - we all have these ideas and formulations to some extent or
another - plus we persist in this even knowing that the model may be
faulty and/or incomplete - yet it pleases us to do so, and this
regardless of the hells one might even be creating for ourselves (and
others) in the process... at this point the question might actually be
> a far more simpler one of merely where to stand?
>
Storytelling has its little vices clamps and devices.
Not a formula I base actions on.
### - nothing to base actions upon i agree... but in the hands of a
master in terms of imparting the impossible - whew!:)
i.e. if you looking for demons masquerading themselves as
angels with their promises of salvation - there's one of 'em!:):)
>
What do you do when you get an infection?
I mean it rhetorically but sincerely too.
Fuck, I get on the pavement and shake the doctor down.
### - heh heh heh... well it's true - but then we all a race of
mamby-pamby wussies nowadays who cry even if we just fall over and
scratch a knee?:):) - i mean, there is almost no more strength left in
us and certainly no reserves! - and now we can't "even live" without
our damn chemicals... plus i'd say people were obviously stronger and
more robust in earlier times... they had to be! - but now we call the
doc' just as soon as we get a sore throat fearing we gonna die of
it;) - it's fucking wussie-world man:):)
> He could have re-turned the wheel.
> Covering each creative line-entity in novel form.
>
### - why would he do that? - i mean, if you'd had many many
experiences of it, and then sought to actually and permanently "live"
in that world (on the other side) - then why would you hold back at
the last moment and (after all that effort) "not go" for whatever
reason? - as you mention later in another context, he actively sought
the point of no return and laboured to that eventuality forsaking all
else (including his art which was of the very best available in the
> world)
>
Yes. I guess not having read in depth the context is not there
to understand the second act of a great drama.
### - i think you understand it...
imho there is no alternative - one must (somehow) go through...
and only failure to do so remains - answering the unanswerable
question lies on the other side where opposites no longer exist as a
separate possibility/entity - the place where one "becomes" the
> singularity
>
Yes. He was rocketing out there and back repetitively like
a string or arc then the time when he was here and there
simultaneously. Then the time when he was just there.
I,m reading when inspired various phase state stuff.
But I understand it intuitively.
### - i think you have a pretty good view of him so far, and
particularly in what you just said... (imho "the approach" to rimbaud
is everything;)
> ### - one-legged-rarie bird nonsense:):)
Wow thats some cliche if your not pulling my leg.
### - lol:):) - of course i'm pulling your leg... it's not really an
ornithologists lament heh heh heh:):) - and i didn't mean to yank your
leg "right off" - (here, have it back quick:) - plus it's really just
an old weary-soldiers war song of longing and yearning to go home from
the front:)
### - agreed... direct will (or intent) is the personal goal, and that
without any of the normal and/or usual corruption that in learning
that usually accompanies it being the best of all options - one of the
old zen monks way to that being to lure their students way-out onto a
> fragile limb, and then to simply hack off the limb ha ha ha:):):)
>
I wonder if it can be taught. The old grace cliche.
### - not taught, but realised... i.e. once realised one can make up
"one's own" versions to induce/induct others if that's how you are:)
but eventually it all boils down
to assuming a greater level of responsibility for oneself and
which arrives only after one has suspended one's own
> judgement to some degree?
>
I find the best method is to try to arrive at at least 10-12
judgements and let them fight it out, The last one standing
being too punch drunk and crippled to be acted upon.
### - :-)
the solution being to pull "one" of them all the way out
first and then the other 2 or 3... i actually laughed like a loon all
> the way home:):)
>
I,ve been there recently but without the image as a marker.
I simply walked out and watched the house of cards I built
collapse. Had I refused to leave I would have been harmed
and gained nothing. By leaving I gained immensely and was
not harmed. Place of no pity I suppose is the best definition.
Although I did have to program in a no guilt response as the guilt
reflex kicked in after leaving that wave of motion.
### - imho that's a fabulous picture you were given or presented
with:) - think of it as a blueprint for later action and/or events if
you like - (it's a good one!:) - plus guilt is a tough one, but it's
useful in that it reveals a few strings that could be (or should be)
further tightened? - i.e. if guilt is to be ruled out (as it must)
then the action in hand must perforce be duly and fully considered
properly beforehand so as to leave no room for error or for any
unexpected results - that or the action just refrained from altogether
if one can't live with all the possible results of it... (simplify if
necessary is the keyword here:)
- yet this general intent or will
"can" nevertheless still be offset for one personally by having a
greater personal intent or sustained will in another direction (i.e.
it's very possible to go against the grain to some extent sort of
thing) - the other answer to many called but few are chosen is
imho unbelievably simple... one simple chooses oneself:):)
>
I wrote a whole essay here on that once.
That before power chooses you must choose yourself.
Then power can choose.
### - after all, Buddha only means... self-awakened one:)
The only strategy solution to a unresolved logical problem being
> intuition and its various suggested improvisations
>
### - one has simply to learn how to invoke intent (or will) for a
> novel solution:)
>
Yes. There have been times due to many balls being
tossed in the air simultaneously that I have forgotten that
basic. That is when I have gained knowledge of a benefactor
that retriggers that wave within me knowing If I could i would
make that choice.
### - old habits die hard? (as i'm sure our friend buttmark would
probably interject here;) - thus also the necessity (and true value)
of entirely invalidating the old - i.e. it's the only way to stop it
from claiming us back every time, that and as the only means to fully
establish oneself within a new continuity or awareness...
A horrible time to be alive if one had hopes of enlightenment
for the mass of humanity. Still a distant point on a grey horizon.
>
### - and is it really any closer a reality these days i wonder?;)
>
Its either right around the corner or very far off.
It feels sometimes like a gardener is pouring water and
sprays and potions all over but the weeds are strong and
the plants struggling.
### - imho and observation it's "all" struggling... the only mystery
that's gonna be revealed being our death - but no, we'll continue
blindly to persist in dreaming that it's actually heaven that's on the
way for us and we'll just continue poisoning it as per usual with our
infernal and developing machines in the mean time... (i.e. it's
actually a retrograde movement that humanity is making and then
calling it progress;)
### - dunno about it being a 100% ode to him - other than dylan's
> whole life is an ode to him in that sense;)
>
Lyrics seem pretty specific to the times and place.
More a transference of dylan projecting his own image
onto rimbaud.
### - agreed about dylan's personality merely projecting etc (i.e. an
imitator of rimbaud)
I,ve edited out the universal salvation aspects of my own
work. I did it respectfully but the idea seemd a truthful one
when I was young because I felt hopeless and that was my
only hope to ride a great wave that chose all. Then when I
did what was necessary as a process of gaining
everything/nothing mindset of being able to be
on or off a self or a silence. Not by chance but being
able to force/command it like a dynamo whirring down
to a final click.
### - understood... and yes when all the shields fail (or fall away)
all that's left is intent or will - (i.e. nothing was developing,
rather it was things being stripped away to reveal what was just there
all the time - (much shit has to be shovelled to reach this:)
creating that picture in the mind of the reader as a form of
work-around or redaction-device designed to make the door
that much clearer to the weary solo traveller?)
Now your sounding like the optimist but on the personal level.
Though I do agree in the same degree with that as one of the
manifold reason and most possibly one of the top three.
Struck me that he had 18 or 28 work copies done by hand
to give to another person to safeguard.
### - dunno about optimism... i just see that there have been some
real geniuses walking around this planet in their time - many of them
having left messages (or footprints i prefer) for anyone also
interested in that kind of thing? - and actually leaving their
messages in places where they will be likely found... i.e. like the
world of literature for example;)
unfortunately i see no real
great plan for humanity other than the evolving plans of the factory
owners to further entrap the workers in what is in reality only a
> captive society
Maybe the mysterious force shall use greed and fear which
already exist in abundance as just another ploy to ensnare
humankind into doing what must be done, whatever that
actually is.
### - that's what i mean by optimism really... i.e. the persistent
belief that things are all working out for the best somehow, or that
it's all meant to be that way no matter how horrible etc? - in other
words, the very mind-block that's in place to thwart any plans/ideas
to the contrary! - (plus imho also at the very root of your guilt when
you "betrayed" it by leaving the house instead of staying like a fool
to get hurt? - (so why does one feel guilty for doing the right
thing:)
i quite like cc's line (or version) of; having to invalidate the old
way/life in order to find or establish true continuity of the new? -
i.e. the ticket to impeccability tale and the metaphorical/symbolic
death of the old life - to reach the place of having no more doubts
>
What book was it in. I pretty much only absorb what people
discuss except for my original reading in winter 82-83 of
portions of 1-4.
### - you never read the later books??? - (imho there's some excellent
bits/covered-ground etc in those:) - it was called the "power of
silence" i believe and the chapter called the ticket to
impeccability - enjoy:)
### - yes guy... anarchy is not the answer, and never can be... and
ultimately it just makes thing worse for everyone... "here" is where
the hippies stood all that time ago - and "this" is what they
> realised...
Ughmmm. Being a child in the sixties was to see heaven
and hell or chaos and order walking down the streets hand
in hand. Trick wa to avoid hell and chaos and not stay in
order or heaven so long as to lose ones ability to be and
become different things.
### - well there were the intellectual hippies too?:) - i.e. the
highbrows and the leading-lights of that movement - people like
william burrows, ginsberg, leary, kesey... their story is quite
illuminating:)
and this being the very factor that gave them the push
they needed to go off down "another road" instead of hanging around
trying to fix or patch things up? (i have described this before in
terms of old and long overgrown railway tracks leading off into a
> "different" distance;)
>
In america the themes and tracks are blatant and the
ghostly whistles echo from one to the other.
### - you see this is the theme played out in prayer for the dying...
i.e. just what does it take for someone to have finally had enough and
to truly decide to do something else completely - (in that story micky
has his former life invalidated for him, plus we wont (or can't expect
to) be so lucky (sort of thing) - i.e. rimbaud deliberately set about
invalidating his own life
### - i hear you... but i can't be going for formulas myself as i tend
> to see all that as being but a further form of corruption?
Yes they are my concession to corruption.
Keeps the ravens and vultures on the window sill and out of
the room.The other birds stay away from fear of those two.
### - (laughing:) well i like your style anyway:) - but imho
artificial means (or props) are always only ever going to weaken
people (like antibiotics for example) and not strengthen them? - i.e.
rimbaud didn't spare himself
- i mean life's too unpredictably short to possibly waste
any of it on not freeing oneself first and foremost - (if after that
> you wanna' play jesus then that's up to you;)
>
No no no it aint me babe.
Go lightly from that ledge.
Everyone has to make that choice.
Those who fail to pass that hill own it
until the next fool arrives and takes their place.
### - the silent flute? (a strange film with exactly that lost option
in it at the end:) - i mean, ya really think they'll let for example
m. jackson (the golden goose) out of his cage ever again? - or anyone
famous or well known come to that? - not a chance buddy, them's people
well and truly nailed-down and accounted for - imho they's as good as
already gone...
probably always best to leave unannounced... and preferably by the
back-door;)
regards from slider...
slider
chris rodgers
slider wrote: (deleted & boring)
Hey slider, the whole thing was a "metaphor".
If you are interested in hearing the real
low-down, tune into the discussion board over
at sustained action and catch someone who knew
CC and party very well. You will hear from the
horse's mouth so to speak. Some very interesting
first-hand stuff. No bullshit. Just the way it
was. Then you won't have to believe me or others
anymore. At this point here there's nothing more
to talk about when you realize they were bullshiting
the world the whole time. True admissions. See
for yourself. Comes from someone who worked directly
underneath CC for many years. :)
slider
chris wrote
slider wrote: (deleted & boring)
## - well i don't think rimbaud was boring chris... i mean, would you
say morrison was boring? - (i think not, and he was only imitating
rimbaud! - as apparently so was dylan:)
Hey slider, the whole thing was a "metaphor".
### - it said on the back cover of the power of silence that is was
all a metaphor chris... you only just realised that??? - lol:):)
If you are interested in hearing the real
low-down, tune into the discussion board over
at sustained action and catch someone who knew
CC and party very well. You will hear from the
horse's mouth so to speak. Some very interesting
first-hand stuff. No bullshit. Just the way it
was.
### - ahhh gawd, not again:):) - and no i'm not at all interested in
the "low-down" or in any "recent gossip" come to that... i mean, my
own life is far too exciting and compelling to bother with anything
petty like that with anything but a passing interest?:) - i.e. so how
long you going to have-off from work over it this time?:)
Then you won't have to believe me or others
anymore.
### - who said i ever did - or never did?:):)
At this point here there's nothing more
to talk about when you realize they were bullshiting
the world the whole time. True admissions. See
for yourself. Comes from someone who worked directly
underneath CC for many years. :)
### - god, you sound just like an advert for ronco's latest
Xmas-gadget chris!:) - and sorry, but no sale:) - i mean, if only you
had been so obsessed with someone like Rimbaud and the message that
"he" left us... that is, if you were really a student of life and all,
and not just one of the lazy emotional audience and/or lovers of the
unknown you would (imho:) have no more time for all this
gossip-nonsense from time? (yawn:) - i mean, you gonna have to maybe
make up your mind for-real one day you know:)
and cc as a metaphor? - for sure and why not... nevertheless imho none
of that detracts from the new and rather clever cosmology he
intentionally created (i.e. it's not easy to create a new genre you
know chris:) - personally i'm more interested in where "you" stand now
in relation to the wider scheme of things? - i.e. what then is your
current philosophy in the light of "all" events and your learning to
date, and what then are you directly and personally doing about it for
yourself other than posing with pretty women for group-piccies?
(personally i just ain't got the time to spare at my age to sit around
for the "next" 6 months (or even more knowing you:) passing the damn
time by gossiping about what can't never be changed;) - but then maybe
it's just me in that i don't particularly find that kind of activity
very stimulating eh...
i think you would like and maybe even identify to some extent with
Rimbaud... (i know i do:) - i.e. try miller's short book: time of the
assassins and see if you don't like him - unless of course that is,
you more interested in sitting around chit-chatting and killing even
more time (i.e. i remember once you said you weren't really giving up
probing/exploring our human potential etc?)
i mean, try and look at this this way... that for "whatever" personal
reasons etc, you made quite an in-depth study of cc and all his
works - you did this, and this in possibly greater depth than anything
else you've ever studied in your life! (i.e. you really looked at it
closely, and over a prolonged period of time:) - and that "regardless"
of what cc is or isn't, was or wasn't etc etc etc... that because of
the rather compelling and spiritual nature of the subject material
contained in his cosmology, you have nevertheless (wittingly or
unwittingly:) covered vast amounts of ground in terms of your (i
presume:) pet-subject about life, the universe and everything?
in other words, turn cc's work into a metaphor and the implication is
that you have then been learning vast amounts of material
"indirectly" - or that you have covered "vast amounts of ground" in
you pet subject indirectly!
i mean, do you know what a metaphor is chris??? - i.e. by calling cc's
work a metaphor you are actually raising Carlos castaneda to the
status of story-teller extrordinaire!! (something i would definitely
go along with no problem:) - the only question being; is his writing
to be considered art? - (i.e. does it transport you to another world
when you look at it:) - i rather think it does:)
and what you gonna do about it for yourself now? (other than sitting
around in Hawaii playing with your wanger i mean, heh heh heh:):)
regards...
chris rodgers
> ## - well i don't think rimbaud was boring chris... i mean, would you
> say morrison was boring? - (i think not, and he was only imitating
> rimbaud! - as apparently so was dylan:)
No I would say most of what you write here is on the boring side.
It goes no where.
> Hey slider, the whole thing was a "metaphor".
> ### - it said on the back cover of the power of silence that is was
> all a metaphor chris... you only just realised that??? - lol:):)
Allegory yes. I knew that from day 1.
None of what he wrote about was real.
He made the whole thing up. A work of art?
OK. A fart who was into art? Big deal. Doesn't
Stephen King and Ann Rice and about million others
do that already?
> ### - ahhh gawd, not again:):) - and no i'm not at all interested in
> the "low-down" or in any "recent gossip" come to that... i mean, my
> own life is far too exciting and compelling to bother with anything
> petty like that with anything but a passing interest?:) - i.e. so how
> long you going to have-off from work over it this time?:)
Oh aren't you just mister excitement with such an special life.
Can I have your autograph mister muy importante? Ha ha ha LOL.
> ### - who said i ever did - or never did?:):)
Your double did. How the hell should I know.?
> ### - god, you sound just like an advert for ronco's latest
> Xmas-gadget chris!:) - and sorry, but no sale:) - i mean, if only you
> had been so obsessed with someone like Rimbaud and the message that
> "he" left us... that is, if you were really a student of life and all,
> and not just one of the lazy emotional audience and/or lovers of the
> unknown you would (imho:) have no more time for all this
> gossip-nonsense from time? (yawn:) - i mean, you gonna have to maybe
> make up your mind for-real one day you know:)
Please spare me your self reflection of your own mind set.
It's not me who rants and raves about his favorite new age dead author.
> and cc as a metaphor? - for sure and why not... nevertheless imho none
> of that detracts from the new and rather clever cosmology he
> intentionally created (i.e. it's not easy to create a new genre you
> know chris:) - personally i'm more interested in where "you" stand now
> in relation to the wider scheme of things? - i.e. what then is your
> current philosophy in the light of "all" events and your learning to
> date, and what then are you directly and personally doing about it for
> yourself other than posing with pretty women for group-piccies?
I'm doing what I've always been doing Slider. Following my own path.
I create it as I go along. Where do you see me posing with these
"pretty" women?
> (personally i just ain't got the time to spare at my age to sit around
> for the "next" 6 months (or even more knowing you:) passing the damn
> time by gossiping about what can't never be changed;) - but then maybe
> it's just me in that i don't particularly find that kind of activity
> very stimulating eh...
"And yet" you'll spend countless hours here going on about nothing.
Hmmmm. You have this very romantic idea of shorty. Of course the
Manson women had the same idea about Charlie until they got busted. LOL
> i think you would like and maybe even identify to some extent with
> Rimbaud... (i know i do:) - i.e. try miller's short book: time of the
> assassins and see if you don't like him - unless of course that is,
> you more interested in sitting around chit-chatting and killing even
> more time (i.e. i remember once you said you weren't really giving up
> probing/exploring our human potential etc?)
That's right. As long as I am breathing I will be exploring.
But you won't catch me dying on a dead end street.
> i mean, try and look at this this way... that for "whatever" personal
> reasons etc, you made quite an in-depth study of cc and all his
> works - you did this, and this in possibly greater depth than anything
> else you've ever studied in your life! (i.e. you really looked at it
> closely, and over a prolonged period of time:) - and that "regardless"
> of what cc is or isn't, was or wasn't etc etc etc... that because of
> the rather compelling and spiritual nature of the subject material
> contained in his cosmology, you have nevertheless (wittingly or
> unwittingly:) covered vast amounts of ground in terms of your (i
> presume:) pet-subject about life, the universe and everything?
Trying hard to see your point of view here butt my point of view will
never
be your point view. My "pet-subject about life"? Who knows what that
is. Right now I'm into focusing energy into what works. I know tons of
shit that doesn't work. Why bother with it?
> in other words, turn cc's work into a metaphor and the implication is
> that you have then been learning vast amounts of material
> "indirectly" - or that you have covered "vast amounts of ground" in
> you pet subject indirectly!
No. If anything I've learned more things about how NOT to be an
asshole.
But then again I already knew much about that subject already. LOL.
> i mean, do you know what a metaphor is chris??? - i.e. by calling cc's
> work a metaphor you are actually raising Carlos castaneda to the
> status of story-teller extrordinaire!! (something i would definitely
> go along with no problem:) - the only question being; is his writing
> to be considered art? - (i.e. does it transport you to another world
> when you look at it:) - i rather think it does:)
No no no. It's Carlos himself WHO is calling it a metaphor. I didn't
say it. He's the one that said it. If I had to call it anything I'd
just call it horseshit, plain and simple. LOL.
> and what you gonna do about it for yourself now? (other than sitting
> around in Hawaii playing with your wanger i mean, heh heh heh:):)
There's nothing to do. I'm done. I'm just sticking around here
and other places seeing how stupid people can be with still adhering
to this crap. It's highly entertaining you know. But hey, don't stop
on my account, who am I to say you aren't enjoying yourself? LOL! :)
Bigfoot
> har...@psy.utexas.edu (Bigfoot) writes:
>> pio...@unet.univie.ac.at says...
>> is cosmologically predicted. I think it's probably
>> something like: all the energy expended by the
>> expansion of the universe against the pull of gravity
>> for the last 15 billion (unadjusted for time-inflation,
>> mind you) has not been accounted for in the current
>> cosmological picture in terms of the mass equivalent of
>> that energy(as in E=mc^2). Some such unaccounted property
>
>in the vast vacuum of outer space is a possibility.
Sure, I guess, or it wouldn't be a major proposition amongst
the cosmology types.
>However, also your theory of some kind of leak in
>this universe where all this expansion-energy of
>billions of years did disappear to, is a possibility
>too.
Not dissappear! The energy expended against the pull
of gravity by the expanding universe was not *accounted*
for in terms of it's *equivalent* mass (as in E-mc^2)
in the current cosmological equations. They accidentially
left it out of their calculations. Not dissappeaared!
Sheeesch!
>castaneda said: such objects like "the universe" do really
>not exist...
I prefer the sorcerer's explanation: The universe is a construct
of the tonal, in actuallity only a view, not a structure in and
of itself. What he said was, nothing is more "real" than anything
else.
>No, not the wave-phenomenon's existence is irrefutable,
>it's only the fact that waves are a good way of calculating
>things which has been proven without doubt. There is really
>no good reason to search for a "medium" -- especially as
>the theory of aether was proven wrong long ago...
Maxwell's equations governing wave propogation contain
no "medium" descriptor at all. No one is searching for
a "medium" because they don't need to. You are the one
that said partical was good and wave was bad, because
wave meant there had to be a "medium." Not me. Maybe
it was a language thing?
>> Science (the tonal's preferred currency) is forever locked
>> into the compilation of a finite set of inherently incomplete
>> inter-relationships the ultimate conclusion of which collectively
>> imply that it (science) is an inadequate tool for describing
>> any reality in which infinity is an intergral component.
>according to science our universe is at least a compact space.
Bullshit. That may be a postulate, but general acceptance has
space as infinite.
>That means that if you would divide it into single dots of
>matter, then you would get a finite amount of matter-dots.
Bullshit. You and I read differnt science journals. Please
cite some references for the above claims. All my references
can be found in Stephen Hawking's "A Brief Description of Time."
>>>Luckily we have castaneda who said that every person is
>>>carrying a whole universe in his body, and that space/time
>>>doesn't exist in reality.
>> Of course they do, you blithering maniac! "Infinity surrounds
>> us and you can use it if you want to." (or something like that)
>No single word about spacial or time-related infinity!
You never read Journey to Ixtlan. My above quote is almost
word for word correct. It's in the first 10 or so pages.
Get your facts straight. If you want to bet me any number
of rubles, I will be glad to give you the exact page and
paragraph in the original hardback edition.
>> And Castaneda didn't say it. The character of DJ said it. And
>What's the difference? If it was castaneda, then he probably
>did steal it from somewhere like the other stuff...
The difference is, when he quoted this material, he did not
claim himself to know what the truth was, one way or the
other, and baby, I believed he sure as hell didn't know.
In your favored later material of his, he claimed to know,
himself, what the truth of sorcery was, and baby, I don't
believe he knew shit about it ever.
>> I don't believe for a minute that a putz like CC thought that
>> up himself. Not for a second.
>All these books are just a description of his dreams, and neither
>reports of real happenings, nor made-up stuff -- just delusions...
Could be, but living like a warrior is some serious delusions.
(infinite chimps in front of typewriters comes to mind, only
we get the chimp that wrote only about 20 pages of Shakespear.)
>Everything is relative to everything else. if E=mc²,
Energy is relative to matter, but that doesn't mean
everything is relative to everything else. (Not that
it rules it out mind you. It just doesn't automatically
follow. Perhaps if you elaborate.)
> and something similar is also true for distances and time-spans,
>then there are two possibilities:
I'm assuming you are referring to the time dialation aspects of
the relativity equations.
>1)there is something in this universe which is relative to nothing,
>some kind of galactic unit which does never get smaller or bigger
>no matter how everything else does change.
I really have trouble seeing the necessity for the conclusion that
even if everything is relative to everything else, that there is
something that is relative to nothing.
>2)There is no such thing, and thereby the mass zero is relative
>to energy zero, and everything is just a mere point in nowhere.
Well, no mass = no energy is easy for me to see, and is in fact
true, but that it makes everything a mere point in nowhere is
not necessarily predicaded by that equation. If I have no
apples and I have no oranges, It doesn't mean they don't exist.
>I hope we agree that 1) is true, but it can't because everything
>is relative to everything else...
Well, I could go along with that, but your conclusions about the
significance of that statement do not make sense to me. Everything
may well be reletive to everything, but that does not make something
relative to zero.
-Bigfoot (I'm pink, therefore I'm Spam.)
slider
chris wrote
slider wrote:
> ## - well i don't think rimbaud was boring chris... i mean, would
you
> say morrison was boring? - (i think not, and he was only imitating
> rimbaud! - as apparently so was dylan:)
No I would say most of what you write here is on the boring
side. It goes no where.
### - lol, so is it my fault already if you can't understand it?:):):)
> Hey slider, the whole thing was a "metaphor".
>
### - it said on the back cover of the power of silence that is was
all a metaphor chris... you only just realised that??? - lol:):)
>
Allegory yes. I knew that from day 1.
None of what he wrote about was real.
He made the whole thing up. A work of art?
OK. A fart who was into art? Big deal. Doesn't
Stephen King and Ann Rice and about million others
do that already?
### - well not quite... (imho they not in his class:)
> ahhh gawd, not again:):) - and no i'm not at all interested in
the "low-down" or in any "recent gossip" come to that... i mean, my
own life is far too exciting and compelling to bother with anything
petty like that with anything but a passing interest?:) - i.e. so how
> long you going to have-off from work over it this time?:)
Oh aren't you just mister excitement with such an special life.
Can I have your autograph mister muy importante?
Ha ha ha LOL.
### - well my life is certainly very special to me anyway chris -
ain't yours to you?;)
> ### - who said i ever did - or never did?:):)
Your double did. How the hell should I know.?
### - heh, well i must admit, you do seem to be the one that's
struggling here matey:)
> ### - i mean, you gonna have to maybe
> make up your mind for-real one day you know:)
Please spare me your self reflection of your own mind set.
It's not me who rants and raves about his favorite new age
dead author.
### - heh heh heh... so you never rant and rave about cc eh
chris?:):) - you do you know, just that it's always in the negative
and at the drop of a hat - and always the big energy to do so? - so
now you're all closed up about rimbaud coz you don't understand it?
(can't be bothered more like:)
> i.e. what then is your
current philosophy in the light of "all" events and your learning to
date, and what then are you directly and personally doing about it for
> yourself other than posing with pretty women for group-piccies?
I'm doing what I've always been doing Slider. Following my
own path. I create it as I go along. Where do you see me
posing with these "pretty" women?
### - imho your self-importance is responsible for the
misunderstanding and for your subsequent hostility old chum - no
hostility on my part was intended i assure you - (the pretty woman pic
was referring to that lovely looking chinese lady you posted/posed
with not that long ago - remember?:) - lighten-up dude (ya'
miserable-fuck:)
>
> it's just me in that i don't particularly find that kind of activity
> very stimulating eh...
"And yet" you'll spend countless hours here going on
about nothing.
### - well that's in your opinion of course:) - and again, is it
really my fault if you don't understand it? - (i mean, others seem to
be able to, why not you;)
Hmmmm. You have this very romantic idea of shorty. Of
course the Manson women had the same idea about Charlie
until they got busted. LOL
### - you're a twit if you really believe that chris, i.e. i've
repeatedly made my stance very clear in the past... (but then i think
you really just tossing old smart-ass reply number 32 at me with this
no?:) - i mean, i was actually being quite nice to you in my long
reply and imho you taking it all wrong for some reason - (so what's
your problem buddy:)
>(i.e. i remember once you said you weren't really giving up
> probing/exploring our human potential etc?)
That's right. As long as I am breathing I will be exploring.
But you won't catch me dying on a dead end street.
### - you say this like you really mean it - (and i thought you really
did) but then you insist in repeatedly howling like a loon over cc and
wot' he dun' to you and other people, all other discussions to be
rubbished and instantly dismissed coz you got something you wish to
repeat all over again??? - (go figure!:)
>
i mean, try and look at this this way... that for "whatever" personal
reasons etc, you made quite an in-depth study of cc and all his
works - you did this, and this in possibly greater depth than anything
else you've ever studied in your life! (i.e. you really looked at it
closely, and over a prolonged period of time:) - and that "regardless"
of what cc is or isn't, was or wasn't etc etc etc... that because of
the rather compelling and spiritual nature of the subject material
contained in his cosmology, you have nevertheless (wittingly or
unwittingly:) covered vast amounts of ground in terms of your (i
> presume:) pet-subject about life, the universe and
everything?
Trying hard to see your point of view here butt my point of view
will never be your point view.
### - i was merely trying to offer you a way out of that mess you call
your mind:):) - i.e. i was offering a straight line that might at
least lead somewhere as opposed to the going round in circles
you seem to prefer?:) - plus this was also why i mentioned your
previous statement to me about still exploring and carrying on
etc - like, if you sincere about there still being something for
you to explore, then how can you possibly be dismissive
of "anything"? - (otherwise it just sounds like you being very
pious:)
My "pet-subject about life"? Who knows what that
is.
### - i was referring to your rather lengthy studies into metaphysics,
religion, literature, history, philosophy and that of our human
potential? (or didn't you know/realise you was learning all that:):)
Right now I'm into focusing energy into what works. I know
tons of shit that doesn't work. Why bother with it?
### - you really are a brick chris (no typo intended:) - heh heh heh,
i.e. you lecture me somewhat on metaphors like you really know what it
means and like it suddenly explains everything, and then you fail to
understand what the metaphor was all about and dismiss it without
examining it any further:)
and why bother with it? - LOL because whether you like it or not, it
played a really big part in your life and perhaps you really ought to
understand "why" it did so if you to ever move-on from that:)
>
in other words, turn cc's work into a metaphor and the implication is
that you have then been learning vast amounts of material
"indirectly" - or that you have covered "vast amounts of ground" in
> you pet subject indirectly!
No. If anything I've learned more things about how NOT to
be an asshole.
### - lol:) - well ya' could've fooled me:):) - no kidding?
(grin:):)
But then again I already knew much about that subject
already. LOL.
### - lol, see... when you honest, that's when you begin to shine
already:):)
> i.e. by calling cc's
work a metaphor you are actually raising Carlos castaneda to the
status of story-teller extrordinaire!! (something i would definitely
> go along with no problem:)
No no no. It's Carlos himself WHO is calling it a metaphor.
I didn't say it. He's the one that said it. If I had to call it
anything
I'd just call it horseshit, plain and simple. LOL.
### - you just came on this ng telling me that the secret was out and
that it was all a metaphor, that an insider (and not carlos) was
saying this...
>
and what you gonna do about it for yourself now? (other than sitting
around in Hawaii playing with your wanger i mean, heh heh heh:):)
>
There's nothing to do. I'm done. I'm just sticking around
here and other places seeing how stupid people can be with
still adhering to this crap. It's highly entertaining you know.
### - imho that's a pretty lousy outlook you holding there chris if
it's true - i mean, it sounds rather "condescending" if you see what i
mean? - plus i would have thought that by now you would know (or at
least suspect;) the reasons why people feel a need to condescend?:)
but then i guess anyone can be a jerk if they in a bad mood
or something eh:)
slider...
chris rodgers
> but then i guess anyone can be a jerk if they in a bad mood
> or something eh:)
>
> slider...
Who's your daddy? :)
Bigfoot
>That's right. As long as I am breathing I will be exploring.
>But you won't catch me dying on a dead end street.
You hope. (And so do I, like you wouldn't believe.)
> Right now I'm into focusing energy into what works. I know
>tons of shit that doesn't work. Why bother with it?
A-freaking-MEN, brother.
>played a really big part in your life and perhaps you really ought to
>understand "why" it did so if you to ever move-on from that:)
So listen you people where ever you roam,
to these words so restlessly ranging.
They say better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone.
For the times they are a changing.
(Busy living, busy dying type a thing, innit?)
>.I'm just sticking around here and other places seeing how stupid
>people can be with still adhering to this crap.
Slider..mmmmm. do I know you? I like your bent. You got
some teeth and God know's I got a thing for teeth, huh?.
Kinda reminds me of a confectioner I'm fond of, but a
little more edge on him than I'm accustomed to. But then I
haven't kept up in here so I'm at a disadvantage.
Speak like rifle fire and carry a big stick that you've
checked out real good for smashing stuff all to fuck and
do it all while being as funny as you can figure out how.
-Bigfoot (Then maybe you can work up to all that talk softly crap.)
slider
Bigfoot wrote
>That's right. As long as I am breathing I will be exploring.
>But you won't catch me dying on a dead end street.
You hope. (And so do I, like you wouldn't believe.)
> Right now I'm into focusing energy into what works. I know
>tons of shit that doesn't work. Why bother with it?
A-freaking-MEN, brother.
>played a really big part in your life and perhaps you really ought to
>understand "why" it did so if you to ever move-on from that:)
So listen you people where ever you roam,
to these words so restlessly ranging.
They say better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone.
For the times they are a changing.
(Busy living, busy dying type a thing, innit?)
### - (snif-snif-snif... i think i smell a rimbaud behind those very
words of yours bigfoot heh:)
I'm just sticking around here and other places seeing how stupid
>people can be with still adhering to this crap.
Slider..mmmmm. do I know you? I like your bent. You got
some teeth and God know's I got a thing for teeth, huh?.
### - most of those words above are actually from chris (unless you
know that already:) - and personally i don't think he has any teeth
left? (although watch out, he could still give you the odd nasty-suck
ha ha ha:)
Kinda reminds me of a confectioner I'm fond of, but a
little more edge on him than I'm accustomed to. But then I
haven't kept up in here so I'm at a disadvantage.
### - ok... so who are you, where do you live, what do you do - and
just give me all you details - ok? (grin, not really:) - and so, you
got a sweet-tooth eh?:)
Speak like rifle fire and carry a big stick that you've
checked out real good for smashing stuff all to fuck and
do it all while being as funny as you can figure out how.
### - those are nice lines bigfoot... (slider puts down his sack) -
give me one penny and i'll give you one of my donuts;)
regards from slider...
slider
chris wrote
slider wrote:
> but then i guess anyone can be a jerk if they in a bad mood
> or something eh:)
>
> slider...
Who's your daddy? :)
### - lol, the spirit in the sky man... the spirit in the sky:) - but
then imho (grin:) you only talking in your sleep again eh:)
so would you say that lucid dreaming accurately reflects the control
(or not;) one exerts over one's daily world? - i.e. is it possible (do
you think:) that one experiences similar lucid moments in our daily
waking consciousness as well as we sometimes do in our dreams? - and
are they connected in any way? - plus (as it appears to be in your
case anyway;) - could it really as rare as it is in dreaming? - ha ha
ha:)
regards...
chris rodgers
> ### - lol, the spirit in the sky man... the spirit in the sky:) - but
> then imho (grin:) you only talking in your sleep again eh:)
I was doing Denzal from Titans for you but as usual it bypassed you.
Oh well. Someday when you see the movie you will have one of those
delayed reaction laffs. I hope you see the humor in it then. :)
> so would you say that lucid dreaming accurately reflects the control
> (or not;) one exerts over one's daily world?
Maybe, perhaps. I'm not really into being a "control freak" and yet
I do like to consciously or deliberately create my destiny. Think
it's possible or do you think some things just happen for no reason?
>- i.e. is it possible (do
> you think:) that one experiences similar lucid moments in our daily
> waking consciousness as well as we sometimes do in our dreams?
Yes I suppose. Remember the voice of dreaming told me "you are awake"
remember? Should I believe that voice? Or act as though nothing
happen?
- and
> are they connected in any way? - plus (as it appears to be in your
> case anyway;) - could it really as rare as it is in dreaming? - ha ha
> ha:)
I like these words i heard in dreaming: "YOU ARE AWAKE"!
Maybe dreaming isn't what we thought it was afterall?
slider
chris wrote
slider wrote:
### - lol, the spirit in the sky man... the spirit in the sky:) - but
> then imho (grin:) you only talking in your sleep again eh:)
I was doing Denzal from Titans for you but as usual it
bypassed you. Oh well. Someday when you see the movie
you will have one of those delayed reaction laffs. I hope you
see the humor in it then. :)
### - oh ok:) - plus haven't seen it, so maybe:)
so would you say that lucid dreaming accurately reflects the control
> (or not;) one exerts over one's daily world?
Maybe, perhaps. I'm not really into being a "control freak"
and yet I do like to consciously or deliberately create my destiny.
Think it's possible or do you think some things just happen for
no reason?
### - on observation alone i'd have to say that do nothing and a whole
bunch of stuff will still happen for various reasons - but act
deliberately (or with intent etc) and a different (or modified) bunch
of stuff happens instead? - at least, that's my experience of it
anyway... and might be very interesting if one ever learns to steer...
kind of thing:)
>- i.e. is it possible (do
you think:) that one experiences similar lucid moments in our daily
waking consciousness as well as we sometimes do in our dreams?
Yes I suppose. Remember the voice of dreaming told me
"you are awake" remember? Should I believe that voice?
Or act as though nothing happen?
### - interesting... so how about acting as though you are awake (i.e.
take it all for real) whenever you realise you lucid dreaming? - at
least that's how i take it and try to act when i experience something
very similar while i'm awake - i.e. now and again during normal daily
consciousness there are times when it feels like waking-up or being
even more awake than a moment before... plus at that point a different
form of awareness makes its presense felt - a seemingly more profound
and inclusive one
- and
are they connected in any way? - plus (as it appears to be in your
case anyway;) - could it really as rare as it is in dreaming? - ha ha
> ha:)
I like these words i heard in dreaming: "YOU ARE AWAKE"!
Maybe dreaming isn't what we thought it was afterall?
### - i think that "everything" is obviously more than we know... imho
it's just arrogance and utter complacency that has rendered all
alternate forms of awareness (like that experienced in dreaming)
redundant and/or illegal - i.e. they just don't fit-in to our already
agreed way that the world will (or ought to) be, in other words, our
collective prior agenda to be a very certain way in the world is what
is responsible for our very limited and narrow view on everything,
including how we see ourselves within all that
and just like in a dream where one minute you are kind of drunk and
don't even realise you in a dream, and the next moment you standing
there going - what-the-fuuu... so thus are we wandering around in our
daily awareness barely even realising we are alive! (although now and
again we get profoundly lucid moments here too:)
in other words, (my best shot:) it appears to be the same "kind" of
awareness, only it looks/feels very differently depending on whether
you awake or dreaming at the time you experience it?
i mean, when it happens during sleep, it apparently lends you the
energy (or something:) to realise one is actually dreaming and so to
be able to explore some of that - but when it happens during the day
it feels like one is realising i've have been asleep all my life! -
plus with many experiences like that, one begins to build-up a totally
separate set of memories based on that newer and more
awake awareness, with it eventually building into a complete body
of "alternate" information that begins to directly vie with the
old outlook on life:)
in that sense then i feel we are maybe very amusingly alike in certain
ways Chris, the differences being in the extremes!:) - i.e. you wake
up sometimes in your dreams at night - and i experience the same kind
of thing, but during the day:) - what i suggest is now happening is
that amazingly we are slowly reversing roles and stations, with me
learning to do this at night during sleep, and you learning to do your
thing in the day?:)
the bonus being, that because of my daytime practices, it appears that
i "already know" how to behave somewhat in the dream state - so i
assume the reverse must also be true for you? - i.e. presumably all
you have to do is to apply your dreaming practices/techniques during
the day to hit a mother-lode!:)
(my last experience was a lu-lu in the sense that i somehow intended
myself into a lucid dreaming state within 5 minutes after i lay down -
jumped through 3 successive dreams lying in the same position, and
woke up 90 minutes later bristling with so much energy i was unable to
sleep for the rest of the night - lol, i was high for days:):)
basically, i think if it wasn't for this kind of stuff, i'd be
completely bored-shitless on this shopping-mall planet already;)
regards...
Bigfoot
>
>In article <9c48vl$pjj$1...@sloth.swcp.com>,
> har...@psy.utexas.edu (Bigfoot) writes:
>
>> Not dissappear! The energy expended against the pull
>> of gravity by the expanding universe was not *accounted*
>> for in terms of it's *equivalent* mass (as in E-mc^2)
>> in the current cosmological equations. They accidentially
>> left it out of their calculations. Not dissappeaared!
>> Sheeesch!
>
>a universe where no energy does disappear. So, if there
>was some energy used for expanding the universe, then
>either it disappear, or it's now available as something
>else, like for example dark matter/energy. So, what are
>you saying where it did go?
>
THAT'S the fucking POINT! How the hell do I have to
SAY it????? The energy IS expended. When two objects are
pulled apart from out of each other's gravity well, there
HAS to be energy expended (work). And in the final analysis,
something that was matter, had to be turned into energy to supply
that separation! Entrophy is the inexholerable process of
eneergy being dissipated evenly throughtout the universe. Like
the heat from a star being cast evenly throughout the galaxy.
Hydrogen fuses to from Helium with a slight reduction in overall
MASS equal to the energy expended according to the equation
E=mc^2. Energy doesn't dissappear, it dissapates from
areas of higher concentration to lesser concentration. And
the highest concentration of energy is matter. So, energy
expended on a universal scale would require a coversion of
matter to energy. THUS the "dark" matter everybody's babbling
about might actually have already been turned to FUCKING energy
spread evenly across the visible universe.
>I once had this nice theory of the universe being a rubber-sheet
>(like for example an inflatable baloon) which does expand because
>of mass-particles pushing against it. In my theory the energy
>responsible for expanding did disappear simply as an porplusion
>effect of the little mass-rockets. leading to a big multidimensional
>mass in the center of the 4 dimensional universe-sphere with a
>3-dimensional surface. What's your theory where this energy did go?
Into the production of comic books. Either stick with current
cosmology and we can discuss it relative merits or let's swap
tales of speculative fiction. I like both pastimes just fine.
> But as I said, I didn't doubt the accuracy of
>your quote, I only did doubt your interpretation of it...
Fair enough.
>>>> And Castaneda didn't say it. The character of DJ said it. And
>>
>>>What's the difference? If it was castaneda, then he probably
>>>did steal it from somewhere like the other stuff...
>>
>> The difference is, when he quoted this material, he did not
>> claim himself to know what the truth was, one way or the
>> other, and baby, I believed he sure as hell didn't know.
>> In your favored later material of his, he claimed to know,
>> himself, what the truth of sorcery was, and baby, I don't
>> believe he knew shit about it ever.
>
>now, if that would be really a relieable method for discerning
>stolen from made-up things, the people probably would have
>figured out long ago the fraudity of some real DJ-character.
>So far we only had these DJ-papers, and they wheren't very
>convincing or else I wouldn't have gotten a phylosophy-prof
>in middle-school who was a castaneda-fan...
Nothing's easy, but then I spend a good deal of time
in training as the Devil's advocate, which not only
leaves no room for easy answers, but gives on a sense
of perspective, and, you know, he needs a little sympathy
from time to time. After all, he's just like the rest
of us fallen angles.
>I actually think in the later books castaneda's memory of the
>original "sources" was blurred to such a degree that he wasn't
>able anymore to discern, between made-up and stolen, for himself...
We are in unambiguous agreement here.
> However, where did we get the strange idea that some
>unchangeable constant c does exist?
God knows where Einstein got it, but it has since been experimentally
corraborated with atomic clocks, radio waves etc.
> is it programmed into the genes? I think a good
>answer for this is castaneda's eagle which does seperate everything
>from everything...
And I think the Eagle is a God replacement metaphore for a vastly
more complicated phenomenen.
-Bigfoot (can't stop the thinking, can't buy it either.)
Bigfoot
>
>In article <9ck575$d17$1...@sloth.swcp.com>,
> har...@psy.utexas.edu (Bigfoot) writes:
>> THUS the "dark" matter everybody's babbling
>> about might actually have already been turned to FUCKING energy
>> spread evenly across the visible universe.
>
>full of energy with equal "value"?
Because they there is not enough matter out there and matter is
visible while the "equivalent" dissipated energy is impossible to
evaluate.
>would be continuously fueled by energy from galaxies, and maybe by
>now there actually is dark-matter where once only dark-energy was...
Maybe. And maybe pig's will fly out of my butt! Almost anybody
who works seriously in the field says that the "dark matter" hypothesis
stuck only because no-one tried to speculate any better solution, but
that the dark matter hypothesis is not even marginally pursued anymore
as a possiblility after a big first effort provided nothing but more
confusion like the need for there to also be "dark and negative" energy.
>>>3-dimensional surface. What's your theory where this energy did go?
>>
>> Into the production of comic books. Either stick with current
>> cosmology and we can discuss it relative merits or let's swap
>> tales of speculative fiction. I like both pastimes just fine.
>
>then lets do both! :-)
>
>Prachett did have the nice theory that ideas from other worlds
>do leak into this world, and while most people disregard these
>ideas, some people actually make a fortune out of this thought-
>energy, like for example by writing comic-books.
It is not a coincidence that the bulk of science fiction
becomes fact after a period of time.
> So, do you
>think the energy expended for the creation of this universe
>did finally leak out of this universe on its way through the
>mind of comic-book-writers, or do you think that the energy
>incoming from other worlds into our world's creational process
>is equal as the energy leaking out?
To properly put this into perspective, I believe that not only
is this particular sequential universe infinite, but that all the
alternative possible universes that could conceivably exist, do
exist, and that an infinite number of them diverge into separate
existances every instant. Thus the "leakage" factor is so profoundly
complicated as to escape human description.
>So, however you turn it, finally it's not a matter of
>sympathy for castaneda's errors,
I have sympathy for the Devil, not CC.
> and you will never know which data you perceive
>as a proof was actually his "honest" attitude,
I have long since stopped caring about what CC thought,
period. I only care about how to interpret the words
in his books. And I am very happy with how I've decided
to interpret them, but equally certain that I will change
that interpretation over time.
and which
>data was just some kind of performance on his side to
>confuse his student's minds... :-)
That was the easy part. I was so out of the loop by
the time you guys bought into it, that it ain't even
funny.
>some people say such things are stored in the very nature
>of our perception, and so by the force of socialization
>we learned to emphasize a perception which does contain
>this constant, but who taught this to the first human?
You have no idea how much I am certain that we create our
universe by our perception of it. Every minute we do this
individually and cummulatively. We were talking science and
it's rules. You can't skip back and forth. Either you want
to talk whether or not dark matter exists in our current
fabrication of the world, or you want to talk how we could
fabricate another world where it could exist. But you
can't talk why dark matter is a good creation in a world
view that doesn't create it.
>> And I think the Eagle is a God replacement metaphore for a vastly
>> more complicated phenomenen.
>
>That's what I said in slightly different words.
>I mean, in the bible God did seperate everything from everything,
But either way it's a nursry rhyme for youngsters for
which I have not interest or use.
-Bigfoot (Am I being too much a hardass?)
Ether Vying
> But either way it's a nursry rhyme for youngsters for
> which I have not interest or use.
The answer is all is one.
> -Bigfoot (Am I being too much a hardass?)
You're a tall cool sip on a hot summer day.
EV
Bigfoot
>IMHO there's a difference between creating universe by perception
>and creating universe by agreement. I agree with the first, but
>just because we did agree that dark matter doesn't exist, should
>not meant that it doesn't exist in the perception we did choose.
>If both things where the same, then science would be totally
>useless, as then instead of searching for the nature of our
>perception.we would only need to create one by agreement...
But, you see, that is exactly what I think we do. It's a little
more complicated than you express it above, but in the final anaylisis,
that's how I think we create the scientific model we have today.
>>>> And I think the Eagle is a God replacement metaphore for a vastly
>>>> more complicated phenomenen.
>>>That's what I said in slightly different words.
>>>I mean, in the bible God did seperate everything from everything,
>> But either way it's a nursry rhyme for youngsters for
>> which I have not interest or use.
>Are you sure?
Except for the standard "haveing to believe" caveat, yeah,
I'm sure.
-Bigfoot (Sure as shit, sure as shooting, damned sure, positive.)
Bigfoot
> No other science is so free from agreement as maths.
don't be so sure. These days the subjects like string theory
and chaos theory are all frought with the same perceptual
ambiguities that physics is.
>If we would really create reality through agreement,
>then who is responsible for the creation of this
>nice paradoxon of time being altered through velocity?
We all are.
>But if we create reality through perception, then
>the idiot who did invent the perception of light
We started as multi-celled protoplasms with light-buds and
started laying the foundation for what would eventually become
"agreement" from there. The process isn't singular to sentient
man.
> is responsible for that. as a mathematical conequence
>of this choice we now have einstein's space-time...
No. We all are responsoble. Together and individually.
>>>>>> And I think the Eagle is a God replacement metaphore for a vastly
>>>>>> more complicated phenomenen.
>>
>>>>>That's what I said in slightly different words.
>>>>>I mean, in the bible God did seperate everything from everything,
>>
>>>> But either way it's a nursry rhyme for youngsters for
>>>> which I have not interest or use.
>>
>>>Are you sure?
>>
>> Except for the standard "haveing to believe" caveat, yeah,
>> I'm sure.
>
>So, what do you think does seperate everything from everything?
Something way beyond your or my ability to describe.
>The pitfall herein is that especially scientists are extremely
>prone to the caveat you mentioned, and so anything they might
>invent to fill up this "what's seperating" gap in their science,
>it will be nothing better or worse than the average "haveing to
>believe" of some xtian.
They'd be doing a fine job in which case. Sadly they will most
likely fall far short of something so flexible and unspecific.
> What do you believe in?
I don't "believe" in anything. I "have to believe" in everything.
>What's the "vastly more complicated phenomenon" you'd replace god with?
*I* don't replace it with anything. I just know that there is
and always will be something vastly more complicated about the
universe, so I allow it to be so now.
-Bigfoot (that's easy for me to say.)