Dreams three tonight, guru is teaching emotions feelings and love power center or gate
wild...@peconic.net
playful mind
group of mentats
dry as a bone, travel in packs
and do nothings
they chat and experience light travel
like a trip
meeting friends that travel in the Light=
I went with jaime, or so the g says,
i met her friends and they do wish they were dead
they are younger about 30ish and very intellegent
playful in the spirit and appariently hang at her parents
house.
one girlfriend and mostly guys, none very good looking
but average, the men clustered together, and one did
look up to me and say he was cc but i know he was not
he was way too thin but he did carrry the spirit pretty well
so he was probably the best to carry him in the bunch,
I know what cc looks like haveing seen him a few times
this year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
too much feeling there got in troulble.
too much passion wrongly used can
do much harm even if you are a charming
one who everyone loves,,,,
person, with desire very very very strong.
meeting one friend who was in trouble and had a gun and actually got
into my car, who is a light worker, this one was through my soul eyes
and I was in a car, and this young man was in trouble and got into my
car, and let me out and took off, he had a gun , and was very scared
and my guru said that he is one who has the guru in him too.
but couldnt adjust, circumstances being too tough, he didnt get away
and he is in jail
but the g talks to him alot.
so he is not lonely and the guru does have the girls on the line
chat with him. his name couldnt be bobby but he looks like bobby,
that I know from another one, with the name bobby,
the guru uses the name for the ones he loves
like he uses lie lii for the kitty cats young things that are so
pretty and into boys and things.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feeling warm mellow and satisfied,
Mellow fellow dreaming and drawing at the same time.
the guru taking my advice I gave him
reciently and drawing beautiful
drawings through li li s and my eyes.
then the guru took me
feeling really really mellow and satisfied...
I was standing behind the masters dark head
and watching him draw
beautiful celestial paintings
of his back of his head with his young friends standing there around
him,it was him because I recognize his swirl low double crown
and the back of his looked like a beautiful celestial infinite
particuled with warm jujube colors intensely celebrating
the creation of love feeling through his drawing of ones that
are created for to demonstrate it.
galixy, if you loolk close at his drawing painting done in colored
pencils, he is a master artist and i felt his trance state of pleasure
doing it. spirirts can and do do that, he is proud that he could do
it. just like that, he picked up a drawing tablet and many pencils
and started drawing and did a fine job
he used many lines and uneven surfaces when you look close
looks like a chaos that is organized, he cant get away from being
ornaized and experienced pleasure like I did when he met me on the
island 2 summers ago when i didnt know him but remember him
and was demonstrating water color to the children and adults
outside my galery in the hamptons, in central garden where people
eat ice cream by the fountain and watch.... my friend that was with me
was painting a large oil painting demonstrating also...
he was in med blue pants like jeans, and had dark moccasins
on , by the roaring fire, that he loves.
at is 630 am est.
i told guru that I am the one many times I said this
if I light travel for pleasure it will be done alone
or with one friend.
so I guess he combine the two after we agreed to do it
and we the two gal s he knows that had a hard time
being in agreement
saw very well together,
she the other who has hurt me
did say she was sorry
and she said to travel for remote seeing I am good to do it with
for the guru, and it is true,
she has the intense energy and I have the memory
to bring it back
she exercises like crazy with tensegrity and is a black belt
I am the one who can appreaciate. and remember the
details cause I was quite awake even in a lucid dream
but not necessariry in control
he is the one who moved me around the roon but she
is the one who brings me there, she is good at carrieing the ones
he wants to see whehter she is awake or not
he just has great control over her light body
and she agreed to do it.
and i wings agreed too
when awake
and he got to stay home and paint with pencils by the fire
and did celebrate
what a lot of work for him to be doing all this
light work he travels so much and wants
to take the rest of his life off when he paints
and feels mellow
like this
no wonder wings loves to draw and paint channel style where
you float and just do it with out too much planning,
there are many ways to paint but this is his favorite
he is an artist..
the guru and wings
this is another experement in esp astral travel remote seeing in
wake lucid dreaming where the guru wakes you up after
each dream and recapts them with you before takeing you on
another journey the same night.
it is 722 am morning, tues jan 6, 1998
pda...@hotmail.com
Wings,
Do you every check with any of these people you believe you are having
these experiences with to see if theyi are having them also?
Brandy Dominick
And I'm talking about objective comparison, and not where you say 'I had this experience' and someone else says 'me too'.
It's easy to have these kinds of experiences, but it's like the difference between dreaming and 'dreaming'. In one case, they may be
an experience, like a dream, without a reality beyond the dream, or they may be a 'dream', where something real is happening beyond the
'dream'.
Until you challenge these experiences to see which they are, it's easy to believe them to be real. Have you challenged these
experiences, really objectively, to see if there is any validity?
Brandy Dominick
rcma...@netcom.com wrote:
> In <4oVs.38$ff1.5...@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net>, "BJ" <vjo...@istar.ca> writes:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> >I think Wings problem is that when she rejects the right brain totally. I
> >don't know were the quote is, but didn't DJ say something along the lines
> >that when one is in the tonal, then one is in it fully, and accepts all of
> >the conotations of that, when one is in the Nagual the one is in that fully,
> >with no regard for the tonal. It had something to do with having to believe
> >(Rosemary, are you up on that quote?:-)
>
> Yepperuni !
>
> "Whenever you are in the world of the tonal, you should be an
> impeccable tonal; no time for irrational crap. But whenever you
> are in the world of the nagual, you should also be impeccable;
> no time for rational carp. For the warrior, intent is the gate in
> between. It closes completely behind him when he goes either
> way."
> Tales of Power
> Rosemarie
Carlos had don Juan to be a guide, to tell him when his dreaming experiences were
nothing but the equivalent of the tonal inner dialogue, to show him what in those
experiences had importance and which did not.
For Wings to assume that every experience she has in this dream state has a tonal
reality is exactly what I'm talking about. The experience may be an experience, but
there is nothing to show that she is really 'dreaming' with Carlos Castaneda.
If she were, I'd bet there would be verification in the tonal for those experiences.
To me, that's a part of being an impeccahle tonal, to put my experiences to the test,
to see what level of reality there may be in them.
Wings way is to assume that if her mind can create it, it's real.
Any of us wackos could be like Wings. All you have to do is let go of the idea of
being an impeccable tonal.
cr...@worldnet.att.net
rcma...@netcom.com wrote: (deleted for now)
Hey welcome to Shanty-Town. The only place in the Universe where it's
totally OK to act like you are going to be the next nagual. Here,
you can answer everyone's questions because you always have the
answer. You're never off, you're always on the mark. Everyone
believes you too. They take your advice to heart. They feel real
fortunate that such a place exists. You're welcome anytime, night
or day. No time for rational behavior here, no time to think things
through. Being right on for the moment is what counts. Everybody
is a star in Shanty-Town. Maybe this is why no one wants to leave.
Christ, this is better than the second attention. You don't need
any attention here. Internal dialogue is the order of the day.
Petty tyrants to the left, petty tyrants to right. Who could ask for
anything more? Step right up to the keyboard. Say anything you want.
Everybody is listening. We'll love ya no matter what. Never any
hard feelings here. Everyone recaps hourly. No problem just lots
of nice energy. Hey you want some? Here, take some of mine. No
problem amigo. You don't even have to pay me back. What a place!
Tales of Horseshit
Coming to a Theatre in your neighborhood
Feel free to add on to the continuing story, be my guest!!! :)>
BJ
Brandy Dominick wrote in message
<26341F982189E036.8E88838F...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
>And I'm talking about objective comparison, and not where you say 'I had
this experience' and someone else says 'me too'.
>
>It's easy to have these kinds of experiences, but it's like the difference
between dreaming and 'dreaming'. In one case, they may be
>an experience, like a dream, without a reality beyond the dream, or they
may be a 'dream', where something real is happening beyond the
>'dream'.
>
>Until you challenge these experiences to see which they are, it's easy to
believe them to be real. Have you challenged these
>experiences, really objectively, to see if there is any validity?
>
>pda...@hotmail.com wrote:
It sounds to me that your discribing the trap of clarity. Real/unreal is a
qualification of the tonal.
Consider this:
Do little green trolls exist?
Most would say no, they don't. But that is to say that little green trolls
cannot be experienced within the envelope of physical senses. They do exist
as concept, or thought. We're aware of "trolls", but in a different way then
say your computer table.
To the right sided brain, the tonal, if it exists outside of reflected
awareness then it is real, if it is experienced within reflective awareness
it is imagination.
To the left sided brain there just is. There is no decipherring between the
quality of awareness. In essence to the left brain everything is fact.This
is because the left bain is not reflective and discursive, only perceptive.
If an experience occurs in dream time or wakefulness is irrelevent to the
left brain. The right brain qualifies what is valid or not.
I think Wings problem is that when she rejects the right brain totally. I
don't know were the quote is, but didn't DJ say something along the lines
that when one is in the tonal, then one is in it fully, and accepts all of
the conotations of that, when one is in the Nagual the one is in that fully,
with no regard for the tonal. It had something to do with having to believe
(Rosemary, are you up on that quote?:-)
In short if one is to approach an occurance with in dream states the one HAS
to disregard tonal thinking (No validating), if one is regarding tonal
occurances then one needs to validate.
I think the trap of clarity is applying tonal thinking to a nagaul
experience.
Dream states are not real(in a tonal sense), but they do exist. When one is
in a dream state, one is not REAL (as in real like the computer table), but
one does exist.
I think we experience physical reality directly, with forced and scattered
attention. This becomes the norm and therefore the cornerstone for what we
consider real. When one begins to experience the physical indirectly (like
dreaming attention) then one begins to experience the dreaming realities
directly, and the cornerstone for reality begins to change.
Frankly I don't think any of this applies to Wings, I think she has
redifined the items on the table of awareness but has not truely changed her
quality of awareness. Call it the "trap of wishful thinking".
Taking dreaming experience and considering it a tonal reality, it's just
changeing labels nothing more. Validating is looking for juctfication to
change the labels.
There two different feilds of experience with their own particular
reference. Cross referencing is futile and useless. (And I bet it is a
product of Bobby's influence on one awareness)
BJ
(I'm sure dP will have something to say about little green trolls being
real; especially in this place)
>
>> On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 11:33:54 GMT, wild...@peconic.net wrote:
Sniped Wings:no fly
rcma...@netcom.com
>don't know were the quote is, but didn't DJ say something along the lines
>that when one is in the tonal, then one is in it fully, and accepts all of
>the conotations of that, when one is in the Nagual the one is in that fully,
>with no regard for the tonal. It had something to do with having to believe
>(Rosemary, are you up on that quote?:-)
Yepperuni !
rcma...@netcom.com
In <345288A0DAA9AB83.540DF9A5...@library-proxy.airnews.net>, Brandy Dominick <bra...@airmail.net> writes:
>nothing but the equivalent of the tonal inner dialogue, to show him what in those
>experiences had importance and which did not.
Yes, it is definitely much more difficult to make our way without donJuan as a
guide. This makes it doubly important to use all the techniques and follow all the
concepts lined out by donJuan. donJuan lined these out for a reason!
>
>For Wings to assume that every experience she has in this dream state has a tonal
>reality is exactly what I'm talking about. The experience may be an experience, but
>there is nothing to show that she is really 'dreaming' with Carlos Castaneda.
>
>If she were, I'd bet there would be verification in the tonal for those experiences.
Well, I'm not sure if verificiation is the most important thing.
>
>To me, that's a part of being an impeccahle tonal, to put my experiences to the test,
>to see what level of reality there may be in them.
>
>Wings way is to assume that if her mind can create it, it's real.
>
It is real to the person. The problem comes in when we then think we are on
a mission to teach others by telling all the detail about it, disregarding all
all requests by others to make some adjustments.
I believe Wings said something about not having read the books or not having read
them recently, or something to the effect, that quoting the books is not as
important as what she reports. She has been very sure of being right, in other
words, everyone here doesn't know diddly. So I don't know what we can do
other than just let her do 'her thing'. I suppose we could all chip in and
buy her a 4Gigabyte harddrive - just kidding.
>Any of us wackos could be like Wings. All you have to do is let go of the idea of
>being an impeccable tonal.
>
Yes, you are absolutley right. It is very easy to get lost in a 'separate reality'.
Rosemarie
rcma...@netcom.com
LOL, good start on the horseshit, Christ. Next?
Rosemarie
dona Omi
cr...@worldnet.att.net wrote in article
<691is4$s...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
Oh I really like this post! Let's all be the new nagual and we can
keep the lineage going that way.
Not only that, we will all be accepted for being the new nagual, all 48
of us...chattering like the Tower of Babel.
How I love the Theatre...look out boys, you could start something you
might not have expected. Burnzilla, stand aside...la dona's got that
wicked twinkle in her eye.
Burnzilla grits his teeth and groans...I won't let her get to me, I
refuse to respond, she's just trying to razz me, trolling and
teasing...the fiend!
No I'm not, I think Burnzilla has a point, but it sure is fun to get
some great new ideas sent our way.
So fellow naguals, how about it? Who's the biggest tetesterone laden
nagual on the block...hey Wings, I'll vote for you sweetie. You could
lead us to freedom without any male posturing at all.
dona Omi
pda...@hotmail.com
It's also a problem for the would be practitioner of sorcery as well.
How do you draw the line between fantasy and imagination and the
'nagual'? I think this is an important question for each of us
solitary practititoners.
My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have
any validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become
'dreaming'?
We have the process that don Juan laid out for Carlos as a guide. We
know that he was told his regular dreams were as unimportant as him
internal dialogue. So we do have an objective guide, a step by step
process for knowing when our dreaming becomes 'dreaming'.
Is it real? Yes, but only in a sense. What most of us want, badly,
is for our dreaming to become 'dreaming', rather than to just believe
that our dreaming has become 'dreaming'. I want the real stuff, damn
it. I don't just want to believe that I'm number one around here and
you all just don't understand my greatness.
>
>I believe Wings said something about not having read the books or not having read
>them recently, or something to the effect, that quoting the books is not as
>important as what she reports. She has been very sure of being right, in other
>words, everyone here doesn't know diddly. So I don't know what we can do
>other than just let her do 'her thing'. I suppose we could all chip in and
>buy her a 4Gigabyte harddrive - just kidding.
>
>>Any of us wackos could be like Wings. All you have to do is let go of the idea of
>>being an impeccable tonal.
>>
>
>Yes, you are absolutley right. It is very easy to get lost in a 'separate reality'.
>Rosemarie
>
Ain't that the truth.
Timetoon
Brandy writes:
>My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have any
>validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become 'dreaming'
Your dreams are only real to the extent you remember them. My teachers have
made a big point of this. If something is not remebered, it is as if it never
happened.
Timetoon (tt)
E3346
Brandy writes:
>>My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have any
>>validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become 'dreaming'
>
>Your dreams are only real to the extent you remember them. My teachers have
>made a big point of this. If something is not remebered, it is as if it
>never
>happened.
I've been taught that even an unremembered dream has a profound effect on us.
Eileen
rcma...@netcom.com
In <9CC48451611484EF.9DD9CCEA...@library-proxy.airnews.net>, pda...@hotmail.com writes:
>On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 04:03:05 GMT, rcma...@netcom.com wrote:
>
>
>How do you draw the line between fantasy and imagination and the
>'nagual'? I think this is an important question for each of us
>solitary practititoners.
>
>any validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become
>
>We have the process that don Juan laid out for Carlos as a guide. We
>know that he was told his regular dreams were as unimportant as him
>internal dialogue. So we do have an objective guide, a step by step
>process for knowing when our dreaming becomes 'dreaming'.
>
>Is it real? Yes, but only in a sense. What most of us want, badly,
>is for our dreaming to become 'dreaming', rather than to just believe
>that our dreaming has become 'dreaming'. I want the real stuff, damn
>it. I don't just want to believe that I'm number one around here and
>you all just don't understand my greatness.
>
You are asking some very important questions. I can only tell you what
I have learned based on my own experience... And that is, that we all largely
create our own reality. This applies to when we are awake, and is even
more clearly discernible, when we are in 'altered states'. We create what
we are aiming at (intent).
Without the proper preparation, we can be thrown into a 'world' in which
we lose our bearings to such a degree, that we begin to have problems
functioning in this 'ordinary reality'. Pretty much all of us start out
with self-importance, believing we are special. But we are able to
eventually understand what donJuan means by it and make some progress
on our paths. If we are thrown into other realities before we have had
a chance to prepare ourselves, we may end up believing we are _really_
special, i.e. one of the 'chosen ones'. This is called the 'messiah
complex', and when it appears in that form, it is very difficult to
return to sobriety.
We often encounter so-called 'blocks' along our paths, which can be looked
at as something like a 'safety device', an indication, that we are not yet
ready to move further. Some people are impatient and override this safety
with certain procedures. Risky business imo.
Rosemarie
Rabbi Fudd
On 9 Jan 1998 16:13:26 GMT, time...@aol.com (Timetoon) wrote:
>Brandy writes:
>
>>My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have any
>>validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become 'dreaming'
>
>
>Your dreams are only real to the extent you remember them. My teachers have
>made a big point of this. If something is not remebered, it is as if it never
>happened.
>
>Timetoon (tt)
>
by the same logic, everything that happened in your waking hours that
you don't remember never happened either?
dan
E3346 wrote:
>
> Brandy writes:
> >>My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have any
> >>validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become 'dreaming'
> >
> >Your dreams are only real to the extent you remember them. My teachers have
> >made a big point of this. If something is not remebered, it is as if it
> >never
> >happened.
>
>
> Eileen
how so, Eileen???
wild...@peconic.net
yes, if you have a seer dream it is reasuring, if you have an enforced
outside person give you a hynotic dream to make you change
or not, it being not know about will cause you to not change or change
in the way that was not more natural,
it is a sorcerers dream to do that to others for good or bad
if they wake you up to record it
it is cc helping
in that he is the one that believes in recaping dreams.
the g and ww
E3346
>> Brandy writes:
>> >>My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have any
>> >>validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become 'dreaming'
>> >
>> Timetoon writes:
>> >Your dreams are only real to the extent you remember them. My teachers
>have
>> >made a big point of this. If something is not remebered, it is as if it
>> >never
>> >happened.
>>
>> I've been taught that even an unremembered dream has a profound effect on
>us.
>>
>> Eileen
>
Well Dan - Without getting too far into my own personal beliefs or ontology
.... Our dreams dream us. Who is the dreamer and who is the dream figure?
Which is more real? Do you have a line that separates your "waking dream"
from your "sleeping dream"? Do you remember every detail from your day? Maybe
not ... but you can be profoundly affected by the course of a day. Sometimes
you might awaken and be in a wonderful (or terrible) mood .... no obvious or
rational reason .... perhaps it is a dream that has had that effect on you.
Maybe someone or something has come to you while you were unconscious (awake OR
asleep) and left a nice gift ..... for you to find much later.
A good swift slap in the middle of your back might help you to remember.
;-)
Eileen
Henry
rcma...@netcom.com wrote:
>
> In <9CC48451611484EF.9DD9CCEA...@library-proxy.airnews.net>, pda...@hotmail.com writes:
> >On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 04:03:05 GMT, rcma...@netcom.com wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> >How do you draw the line between fantasy and imagination and the
> >'nagual'? I think this is an important question for each of us
> >solitary practititoners.
what line? spirit is the core
just because ...don't make it so
people are so afraid to die, that
everything ends just like us ...don't u konw ?
> >
> >My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have
> >any validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become
> >'dreaming'?
> >
> >We have the process that don Juan laid out for Carlos as a guide. We
> >know that he was told his regular dreams were as unimportant as him
> >internal dialogue. So we do have an objective guide, a step by step
> >process for knowing when our dreaming becomes 'dreaming'.
your dreaming, if, when things fuck up u wake up!
if it is reality, when u fuck up u know it ! right dan ?
> >
> >Is it real? Yes, but only in a sense. What most of us want, badly,
> >is for our dreaming to become 'dreaming', rather than to just believe
> >that our dreaming has become 'dreaming'. I want the real stuff, damn
> >it. I don't just want to believe that I'm number one around here and
> >you all just don't understand my greatness.
> >
how much reality do u want ?
how many different worlds do u want to die in ?
nobody but nobody can deal with THIS reality ! right brandy ?
>
> You are asking some very important questions. I can only tell you what
> I have learned based on my own experience... And that is, that we all largely
> create our own reality. This applies to when we are awake, and is even
> more clearly discernible, when we are in 'altered states'. We create what
> we are aiming at (intent).
this is wishful THINKING at best
u will die like an apple on a tree
importance is a 4 letter word.. ur dreaming
>
> Without the proper preparation, we can be thrown into a 'world' in which
> we lose our bearings to such a degree, that we begin to have problems
> functioning in this 'ordinary reality'. Pretty much all of us start out
> with self-importance, believing we are special. But we are able to
> eventually understand what donJuan means by it and make some progress
> on our paths. If we are thrown into other realities before we have had
> a chance to prepare ourselves, we may end up believing we are _really_
> special, i.e. one of the 'chosen ones'. This is called the 'messiah
> complex', and when it appears in that form, it is very difficult to
> return to sobriety.
this is the reality u speak of
this is the reality ..where everyone loves Jesus
why ? to save their ass.. simple whoops
i mean because they r good christian souls ! right pete ?
>
> We often encounter so-called 'blocks' along our paths, which can be looked
> at as something like a 'safety device', an indication, that we are not yet
> ready to move further. Some people are impatient and override this safety
> with certain procedures. Risky business imo.
> Rosemarie
everybody is riding 1000mph on the seat of their pants
and everybody is SPECIAL!....right ww?
Feral
>>> Brandy writes:
>>> My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these
>>> dreams have any validity beyond being a dream? At what point
>>> do they become 'dreaming'
>> Timetoon (tt):
>> Your dreams are only real to the extent you remember them.
>> My teachers have made a big point of this. If something is not
>> remebered, it is as if it never happened.
> Rabbi Fudd:
> by the same logic, everything that happened in your waking hours
> that you don't remember never happened either?
Hiyer there guys.... Feral wiff the dingo brains... Yeah, to takes
this even further.... This be quantum type of thingo yer talks about
here..... It's the same type of logic that unless you experience
something it doesn't exist. Yer nose... tho I have travelled overseas,
I have neva bin ter Amerryca so I have no peronalised *proof* it
exists... Peoples, maps, etc tells me Amerrycan exists... Neva havin'
bin there I have ter take all this knowledge on faith value....
So logically, to Feral Amerryca doesn't exist..... So now yer all nose
why Feral be sooooooo backward.......
Yer friend from downunder DownunderLand Australia,
Feral
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Croaton
So logically, to Feral Amerryca doesn't exist..... So now yer all nose
why Feral be sooooooo backward.......
America, Australia, etc. Just a state of mind, don't ya think ?
Croaton
EE
What if .... the dreaming body/energy body has a life of its own ....
What if ... its life is the dream world .... where it interacts with the
energies of that realm .... other others .... in what we think of as 24
hours a day ....
But we're only aware of it when full tonal consciousness shuts down ....
What if ...
Dreaming is awareness of the dreaming body's activities ... subject to
our interpretation ....
"Dreaming" is participation in the dreaming body's activities ....
subject to our interpretation ....
Once, my dream body, hiding in the fog, taunted me by calling out over
and over again "I am the hunted. You are the hunter." Sometimes she
eludes me altogether. Sometimes she lets me watch. Sometimes, we are one
- a complete being in dreamtime. Then our reality is more lifelike than
life itself ... and I wonder ... am I awake, or am I dreaming? This is
so hyper-real I must be awake ... no, I'm dreaming ....
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is butt a dream, right Henry?
EE
cr...@worldnet.att.net
EE wrote:
> Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
> Life is butt a dream, right Henry?
>
> EE
Keep rowing, you'll be there soon. :>)
Henry
> Life is butt a dream, right Henry?
>
> EE
if life is butt a dream........then
my shit's not real ?
my bucket is really empty ?
my mindzzz life is.......
a real shit dream
ok..soo..
i must be too stupid to wake up
and stop smelling the shit
some dreams never end
duhhhhhhhhhh
whoops
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
shiting does have it's moments
wild...@peconic.net
On 9 Jan 1998 16:13:26 GMT, time...@aol.com (Timetoon) wrote:
>Brandy writes:
>
>>My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have any
>>validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become 'dreaming'
>
>
>Your dreams are only real to the extent you remember them. My teachers have
>made a big point of this. If something is not remebered, it is as if it never
>happened.
>
>Timetoon (tt)
My teacher the guru taught me different
if you do not recapitate your dreams
and all of them are real..
they will influence you and haunt your
daily life for ever, if you do not work
on the work of waking up and acquiring
awareness and make truth of the dreams
and file them away in your conscious mind
you slowly turn your unconsciousness
to light and can see clearly
to the buddic plane,
of the astral.
when you have a quiet mind for years
you may get picked like an apple off the
tree of life
the kundalini serpant lives and loves it
on the spine, and the master sorcerer
guru is the one to speak of knowledge
from the clear and shiny bright strong
and powerful unified tree of light and life
the spine that is perfect for transmission
and shining intent into
for the esp and feelings like intending
the movement of the ap
and words and pictures appear
saying the guru is here and present
and he even tells you where he is
and where to meet him
so you dont think you went crazy...
the guru and ww
>
>
EE
EE:
> > Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
> > Life is butt a dream, right Henry?
henry (with a small h):
> if life is butt a dream........then
> my shit's not real ?
your shit's real
everything's real
nothing's real
> my bucket is really empty ?
nah ... it's full of shit you can't see
> my mindzzz life is.......
> a real shit dream
it's all real shit
> ok..soo..
> i must be too stupid to wake up
> and stop smelling the shit
that's cause you're busy smelling the dream shit
> some dreams never end
with any luck
> duhhhhhhhhhh
> whoops
> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
> shiting does have it's moments
yup
think i'll clean the toilet and then stop by at the karaoke lounge ...
why don't you join us and do a number two ... i mean ... too!
ee
dan
E3346 wrote:
>
> >> Brandy writes:
> >> >>My dreams at night are real. They ihappen. But do these dreams have any
> >> >>validity beyond being a dream? At what point do they become 'dreaming'
> >> >
> >> Timetoon writes:
> >> >Your dreams are only real to the extent you remember them. My teachers
> >have
> >> >made a big point of this. If something is not remebered, it is as if it
> >> >never
> >> >happened.
> >>
> >us.
> >>
> >> Eileen
> >
> >how so, Eileen???
>
> Well Dan - Without getting too far into my own personal beliefs or ontology
> .... Our dreams dream us.
hmmmm... reading and sort of understanding that (the concept and
possibility of the dreamer and the dreamed) was always one of the things
about this whole thing that, to me at least, had this flicker of
recognition to it... and it triggered off a forgotten wisdom or
knowledge or maybe a longing... of what we are..
> Who is the dreamer and who is the dream figure?
they're both you, or us.
> Which is more real?
they're both equally real.
> Do you have a line that separates your "waking dream"
> from your "sleeping dream"?
at this point and place in time, yes I do, it's called my everyday
indulgent thing I guess.
> Do you remember every detail from your day? Maybe
> not ... but you can be profoundly affected by the course of a day. Sometimes
> you might awaken and be in a wonderful (or terrible) mood .... no obvious or
> rational reason .... perhaps it is a dream that has had that effect on you.
> Maybe someone or something has come to you while you were unconscious (awake OR
> asleep) and left a nice gift ..... for you to find much later.
thanks, Eileen, for the straightforward answer.
> A good swift slap in the middle of your back might help you to remember.
> ;-)
yeahhhh, where's ol "donJ" when I need him...
:-)
RStark1957
EE:
"Once, my dream body, hiding in the fog, taunted me by calling out over and
over again 'I am the hunted. You are the hunter.' Sometimes she eludes me
altogether. Sometimes she lets me watch. Sometimes, we are one - a complete
being in dreamtime. Then our reality is more lifelike than life itself ... and
I wonder ... am I awake, or am I dreaming? This is so hyper-real I must be
awake ... no, I'm dreaming ..."
And what if . . .
When our connection with the energy body snaps, we die.
And what if . . .
When that happens, the energy body breaks up into its component parts, just
like physical body?
And what if . . .
Sorcerers go 'hat, shoes and all' and leave behind no trace?
What does that mean?
Randy
". . . never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
-- John Donne
Craig S Akerfeldt
cr...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> rcma...@netcom.com wrote: (deleted for now)
You guys completely forgot the SELF-IMPORTANT monster
It rears it's head quite often in this world.....
you crazy warriors, you!!!!!!
Thank-you for bringing me such great joy with that story....
I will share it with my friend...he is going to die laughing....
I still am..................................
EE
RStark1957 wrote:
> And what if . . .
> When our connection with the energy body snaps, we die.
> And what if . . .
> When that happens, the energy body breaks up into its component parts, just
> like physical body?
It could happen that way.
But who or what says that the energy body is the ultimate unit of
awareness? What if the energy body is just another vessel that the core
unit of awareness sheds?
> And what if . . .
> Sorcerers go 'hat, shoes and all' and leave behind no trace?
> What does that mean?
Yes, I've wondered about that too. I've also wondered why it would be
necessary, or even desirable, to take the physical body into the third
attention.
The only analog of this sort that I can think of is the story of the
ascension of Jesus Christ, bodily, into heaven. And I know how popular
that story is around here. :-)
What do you think it means that sorcerers goes 'hat, shoes and all', and
why that's the way to go?
EE
> Randy
>
> ". . . never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
> -- John Donne
Ain't it the truth.
RStark1957
RS:
"And what if . . . the energy body breaks up into its component parts, just
like physical body?"
EE:
"It could happen that way. But who or what says that the energy body is the
ultimate unit of awareness? What if the energy body is just another vessel that
the core unit of awareness sheds?"
That's also a possibility, but I'm speculating on what the sorcerers have said.
They have stated, as I understand it, that when a person dies the connection
with their energy-body-slash-awareness is severed. Their energy body
experiences a brief flash of total awareness and is then consumed by the Eagle.
I extrapolate the broken 'into its component parts' thing from Carlos'
description of what happened when he jumped off the cliff. He perceived that
what he knew of as 'himself' was really a cluster held together by some unknown
force.
Your point makes me wonder if there was a unit of awareness that remained when
Carlos' cluster was broken apart, and if that would point to the energetic
clustering indeed being a kind of 'vessel' for that unit. Or is the clustering
force itself the unit of awareness?
To my knowledge, the sorcerers have never spoken in quite these terms. If I
understand you right, such a unit of awareness would point to retaining a
certain individuality along the lines of reincarnation, and that is something
they maintain simply does not happen.
When a person dies, their 'loan of awareness' is reabsorbed by the Eagle and
that's that as far as individuality goes. So-called 'memories' of other
lifetimes are related to the non-linear experience of Cyclicity in which other
times and 'layers of the onion' are said to exist simultaneously -- the moving
'backward and forward on the here-and-now energy of the universe' that Carol
spoke of in The Art of Dreaming.
Is the energy body a vehicle, or is it the 'loan of awareness' itself? Could
spirit/intent be the clustering force that renders such 'awareness' a body?
RS:
"And what if . . . sorcerers go 'hat, shoes and all' and leave behind no
trace?"
EE:
"Yes, I've wondered about that too. I've also wondered why it would be
necessary, or even desirable, to take the physical body into the third
attention."
Don Genaro once disappeared right before Carlos' eyes, almost like someone
transporting on Star Trek. I think it all comes back to the assemblage point.
The apparent dichotomy between 'physical' and 'energy' body is probably a
configuration of the AP. Change that configuration, or move the AP, and the
dichotomy vanishes in a puff of smoke (or perhaps a sulfuric-like yellow fog
;-).
My feeling is that the energy body is the primary 'unit' of awareness, of which
the physical body is but an ancillary phenomenon.
EE:
"What do you think it means that sorcerers goes 'hat, shoes and all', and why
that's the way to go?"
Well first of all, I think the sorcerers mean exactly what they say. There's
nothing metaphorical about it. There's a certain totality of energy involved
with the assemblage point. Going into the second attention with one's totality
is probably akin to what you were saying about encounters you've had with your
own 'double'. They can be much more 'real' than what is experienced in
everyday life.
Could this be what the 'third attention' is -- that totality?
Don Juan and Carol went into the IB's world with the totality of their energy
to drag Carlos out in The Art of Dreaming. Carlos and Carol went to the
'storage shed' world with their totality and almost got trapped there. Don
Juan later asked them to think about this experience, that perhaps in some way
it might be what's happened to us all. We've gotten trapped in an eddy of the
stream and don't remember where we came from (a position of the AP).
As for why 'hat, shoes and all' is the way to go, I don't really know, other
than it's an integral part of what the sorcerers have written about.
Randy
Remy
EE wrote in message <34B9B3...@interlog.com>...
>RStark1957 wrote:
>
>> And what if . . .
>
>> When our connection with the energy body snaps, we die.
>
>> And what if . . .
>
>> When that happens, the energy body breaks up into its component parts,
just
>> like physical body?
>
>It could happen that way.
>
>But who or what says that the energy body is the ultimate unit of
>awareness? What if the energy body is just another vessel that the core
>unit of awareness sheds?
>
>> And what if . . .
>
>> Sorcerers go 'hat, shoes and all' and leave behind no trace?
>
>> What does that mean?
>
>Yes, I've wondered about that too. I've also wondered why it would be
>necessary, or even desirable, to take the physical body into the third
>attention.
>
>The only analog of this sort that I can think of is the story of the
>ascension of Jesus Christ, bodily, into heaven. And I know how popular
>that story is around here. :-)
>
>What do you think it means that sorcerers goes 'hat, shoes and all', and
>why that's the way to go?
Well I think it is the way I will go just in case I should pop back out on
the tonight show or something, hell never know about these things. But then
again....
....it would be sorta cool just to disappear right outta those clothes in a
holy roller church with a little book in your hand that talks about the
rapture, lol.
John
EE
RS:
> "And what if . . . the energy body breaks up into its component parts, just
> like physical body?"
EE:
> "It could happen that way. But who or what says that the energy body is the
> ultimate unit of awareness? What if the energy body is just another vessel that
> the core unit of awareness sheds?"
RS:
> That's also a possibility, but I'm speculating on what the sorcerers have said.
> They have stated, as I understand it, that when a person dies the connection
> with their energy-body-slash-awareness is severed. Their energy body
> experiences a brief flash of total awareness and is then consumed by the Eagle.
EE:
OK. So the Eagle gets to eat the ME awarness. That's not to say that
there isn't anything beyond that.
RS:
> I extrapolate the broken 'into its component parts' thing from Carlos'
> description of what happened when he jumped off the cliff. He perceived that
> what he knew of as 'himself' was really a cluster held together by some unknown
> force.
> Your point makes me wonder if there was a unit of awareness that remained when
> Carlos' cluster was broken apart, and if that would point to the energetic
> clustering indeed being a kind of 'vessel' for that unit. Or is the clustering
> force itself the unit of awareness?
EE:
Kind of makes you think that there must have been some independent unit
of awareness operating.
The purpose of the clustering force is to bundle the emanations. I don't
recall reading anything about them being the seat/heart of awareness.
RS:
> To my knowledge, the sorcerers have never spoken in quite these terms.
EE:
Here's the thing, Randy ... complex knowledge is often distilled down to
a level that the average joe can absorb ... It would be
counter-productive and confusing for the masses if a complex explanation
were put forth. There is much that is unspoken, implied or hinted at.
That information is usually reserved for 'apprentices' and more advanced
students of a school of study.
RS:
> If I
> understand you right, such a unit of awareness would point to retaining a
> certain individuality along the lines of reincarnation, and that is something
> they maintain simply does not happen.
EE:
No. That's not what I'm getting at. Perhaps the energy body is the
binding force that holds the physical and energy bodies together and is
the matrix through which consciousness/energy is filtered. It would then
house the consciousness that is ME. That's why we don't lose a sense of
our personal identity when we go into the energetic realms - the second
attention, or dreaming. The energy body, though it is more directly
linked to the emanations at large, intent, still houses a personal
individuated awareness.
By the core unit of awareness, I mean an impersonal unit of awareness
that is part of the body, if you will, of IT. That's to say that after
the physical and energy bodies are shed (the personal aspect) what is
left is and individual componant of awareness that is part of awareness
at large. It is individual yes, but it's individuality is not 'personal'
as we define the term. As for reincarnation .. I'm not a believer in it
in the commonly accepted wishful thinking kind of way. But, energy is
neither created nor destroyed, which would imply that everything is
recycled in some way.
RS:
> When a person dies, their 'loan of awareness' is reabsorbed by the Eagle and
> that's that as far as individuality goes. So-called 'memories' of other
> lifetimes are related to the non-linear experience of Cyclicity in which other
> times and 'layers of the onion' are said to exist simultaneously -- the moving
> 'backward and forward on the here-and-now energy of the universe' that Carol
> spoke of in The Art of Dreaming.
> Is the energy body a vehicle, or is it the 'loan of awareness' itself? Could
> spirit/intent be the clustering force that renders such 'awareness' a body?
EE:
Since we're speculating anyway ... what if our link with intent emanates
from the core unit of awareness - connected to intent at large, because
it is part of intent at large in an individual little package - like a
cell in the body of intent at large - IT ... or like an individual
photon in a beam of light.
> RS:
> "And what if . . . sorcerers go 'hat, shoes and all' and leave behind no
> trace?"
> EE:
> "Yes, I've wondered about that too. I've also wondered why it would be
> necessary, or even desirable, to take the physical body into the third
> attention."
RS:
> Don Genaro once disappeared right before Carlos' eyes, almost like someone
> transporting on Star Trek. I think it all comes back to the assemblage point.
EE:
It was my impression that that body of Genaro's was the other, which has
the appearance of, but is actually not physical. Remember when Genaro
couldn't eat? Funny guy.
RS:
> The apparent dichotomy between 'physical' and 'energy' body is probably a
> configuration of the AP. Change that configuration, or move the AP, and the
> dichotomy vanishes in a puff of smoke (or perhaps a sulfuric-like yellow fog
> ;-).
EE:
Yes, as far as perception goes from within. What does the observer see?
RS:
> My feeling is that the energy body is the primary 'unit' of awareness, of which
> the physical body is but an ancillary phenomenon.
EE:
OK. We're getting down to feelings are we? Feelings, nothing more than
feelings ... ;-)
My feeling at this time (and I reserve the right to change my mind) is
that the energy body is just another vessel - the glue/conduit that
connects/binds the physical with intent at large, through which the
emanations are filtered, or stoppped down to a usable form. The energy
body does have it's own kind of awareness (its awareness being in the
realm of interpreting/communicating with other energy), but the core
unit of awareness within each one of us is something else ... and
totally impersonal.
EE:
> "What do you think it means that sorcerers goes 'hat, shoes and all', and why
> that's the way to go?"
RS:
> Well first of all, I think the sorcerers mean exactly what they say. There's
> nothing metaphorical about it. There's a certain totality of energy involved
> with the assemblage point. Going into the second attention with one's totality
> is probably akin to what you were saying about encounters you've had with your
> own 'double'. They can be much more 'real' than what is experienced in
> everyday life.
> Could this be what the 'third attention' is -- that totality?
EE:
Could be. But you don't need your physical body there.
RS:
> Don Juan and Carol went into the IB's world with the totality of their energy
> to drag Carlos out in The Art of Dreaming. Carlos and Carol went to the
> 'storage shed' world with their totality and almost got trapped there. Don
> Juan later asked them to think about this experience, that perhaps in some way
> it might be what's happened to us all. We've gotten trapped in an eddy of the
> stream and don't remember where we came from (a position of the AP).
EE:
Or was he referring to a broader more all-encompassing theme?
RS:
> As for why 'hat, shoes and all' is the way to go, I don't really know, other
> than it's an integral part of what the sorcerers have written about.
EE:
I think we've talked all the way around the subject, and I've enjoyed
this conversation - we've covered alot of interesting ground ... but the
question we started with remains unanswered. Why would one need a
physical body in the 3rd attention, which is, from all indications, not
a physcial reality as we know it?
EE
DrBlmnfnkl
EE:
>...So the Eagle gets to eat the ME awarness.
>That's not to say that there isn't anything beyond that.
"At the moment of dying, all of our being disintegrates
under the attraction of that immense force."
(FFW, 54)
All of our being...
RS:
>> I extrapolate the broken 'into its component parts'
>>thing from Carlos' description of what happened
>>when he jumped off the cliff. He perceived that
>>what he knew of as 'himself' was really a cluster
>>held together by some unknown force.
We are a "cluster" of emanations inside a bubble.
The binding force is our connecting link with Intent.
"Sentient beings are minute bubbles made out of
those filaments, microscopic points of light,
attached to the infinite emanations."
(FFW, 61)
>>Your point makes me wonder if there was a
>>unit of awareness that remained when
>> Carlos' cluster was broken apart, and if that
>>would point to the energetic clustering indeed
>>being a kind of 'vessel' for that unit. Or is the
>>clustering force itself the unit of awareness?
That's a good question. I don't think "the cluster"
was really broken apart. It just felt that way to CC
then because the AP was moving around all over
the place, aligning all kinds of different energy,
before stopping to "assemble" more or less
coherent views briefly (the spirit was moving it),
to the point that "identity" seemed pretty much gone.
The "unit of awareness"? What is life itself?
Well, this is too grand a question for me,
but...of course we must speculate...
"Awareness is a glow in the cocoon of living beings."
(FFW, 62)
But is that glow "life"? Or is "life" ALL of us, totality?
Can that glow of awareness exist without the infinite
emanations to align, and without the pressure that
makes those emanations fixate our awareness when
they become aligned via the AP? On the other hand,
a new "life" is formed by "a merging, a fusing of two
pieces of the glow of awareness, one from each
partner, that separate from their cocoons". (FFW, 70)
Somehow, that new merged "glow" gets placed
inside a new bubble which is itself attached to the
infinite emanations. But again, is what we call "life"
*only* that glow. It seems to require the structure
and the emanations to assemble as well (at least,
at this stage of "life"). So "life" is a conglomerate
of awareness and something of which to be aware,
which is "held together" and "regulated" by a
"binding force" which is itself the ultimate mystery,
intent, the spirit.
>EE:
>Kind of makes you think that there must have
>been some independent unit of awareness operating.
Ya think that "independent unit" comes from mommy,
or daddy? :)
(No, you clarify this idea later...jes funnin'...)
>EE:
>Here's the thing, Randy ... complex knowledge
>is often distilled down to a level that the average joe
>can absorb ...
We are trying to talk in linear fashion about something
that ISN'T linear. These "models" of awareness are
as close as reason can come to "comprehending" life.
But there it is very likely that it will ALWAYS be more
than that really---it will remain beyond "comprehension"
by reason, whether by an average joe, or a genius.
>Perhaps the energy body is the binding force
>that holds the physical and energy bodies together
To continue with the linear attempt...
The energy body is a luminous sphere,
as is the body. We are dual beings,
and our true duality is body-energy body,
connected by an "ethereal connection".
Notice, when you bring the energy body
into the picture, it becomes more complex.
Two assemblage points, two cocoons,
and *connected* via the AP's. And at some
point, sorcerers *merge* these into a "unit"
of sorts.
>and is the matrix through which consciousness/energy
>is filtered. It would then house the consciousness
>that is ME. That's why we don't lose a sense of
>our personal identity when we go into the
>energetic realms - the second attention, or dreaming.
>The energy body, though it is more directly
>linked to the emanations at large, intent, still houses
>a personal individuated awareness.
ME is just a small part of the awareness of our body,
our luminous sphere, a small collection of AP positions
with which we are extremely familiar, and STUCK in.
The reason we don't lose our sense of identity when
dreaming is that we are dual beings. The energy body
IS "the self", just like the body is. It still feels like you
because it IS. And you are aware and perceive in
the energy body because the emanations align
through the AP of the energy body, just as they do
with the AP of the body. It is possible to have an
experience in the body and the energy body at
the *same time*, later becoming *aware* of *both*
experiences. We are dual beings, dual AP's.
dual glows of awareness.
So what is "life"? It is ALL of that, and yet,
it can become something different entirely.
To burn with the fire from within is to abandon
the "structure" of the cocoons and the APs,
to undergo a sort of metamorphosis, and with
a "merged awareness" of some kind, including
the awareness of body AND energy body,
fuse to the emanations at large and glide away
into the infinite. Words failed even don Juan
at this point, so....
>By the core unit of awareness, I mean an
>impersonal unit of awareness that is part of
>the body, if you will, of IT.
Yes, if there is such a "unit", it has to lie in
the personal connection to the spirit, the
force that holds together body and energy body.
I'm not at all sure there is such a thing, though.
It may be that "the personal connection to intent",
is just every living beings capacity to tap into,
and use, that universal force. In other words,
it may really be better described by the word
"connection" than by the word "unit".
>That's to say that after the physical and
>energy bodies are shed (the personal aspect)
>what is left is and individual componant of
>awareness that is part of awareness at large.
>It is individual yes, but it's individuality is not
>'personal' as we define the term.
If you "shed" either body, "you" die, and the
energy and awareness that composed "you"
disintegrates, the "awareness" returns to the Eagle
and the "energy" of those emanations merges
back into the emanations at large. The bubble
pops, and the emanations inside are no longer
separated from the emanations outside.
I have *no* idea if it is meaningful to talk about
the binding force that held "you" together as
"personal", once everything IT held together
is gone. I suspect: not particularly.
>As for reincarnation .. I'm not a believer in it
>in the commonly accepted wishful thinking kind
>of way. But, energy is neither created nor
>destroyed, which would imply that everything is
>recycled in some way.
That's what I always thought too.
The emanations of energy are eternal.
New "bubbles" can be formed around the
same energy. New "awareness" is somehow
pumped into those new bubbles to align,
assemble, and perceive that energy.
The Eagle must do *something* with that
"enhanced awareness"---it "absorbs" it
somehow, and perhaps it is "recycled"
in some way. Incomprehensible...
>RS:
>> When a person dies, their 'loan of awareness'
>> is reabsorbed by the Eagle and that's that
>> as far as individuality goes. So-called 'memories'
>> of other lifetimes are related to the non-linear
>> experience of Cyclicity in which other times
>>and 'layers of the onion' are said to exist simultaneously --
>> the moving 'backward and forward on the
>> here-and-now energy of the universe' that
>> Carol spoke of in The Art of Dreaming.
Yes, and here is where we come to another
wonderful set of questions: what does it really mean
to "move". What is moving, really? The glow of
awareness? And exactly how does it travel?
On *shared* strands of "emanations of awareness"?
etc.
>EE:
>Since we're speculating anyway ... what if our link
>with intent emanates from the core unit of awareness -
>connected to intent at large, because it is part of
>intent at large in an individual little package - like a
>cell in the body of intent at large - IT ... or like an
>individual photon in a beam of light.
Cool speculation. Cool analogy. Maybe...
>> RS:
>>"And what if . . . sorcerers go 'hat, shoes and all'
>>and leave behind no trace?"
>> EE:
>>"Yes, I've wondered about that too. I've also
>>wondered why it would be necessary, or even
>>desirable, to take the physical body into the third
>>attention."
Your hat and shoes are just perceptions.
You can have hats and shoes in your dreams too.
And in other worlds.
You don't take your "physical body" into the
third attention. Your "physical body" is just one
way of perceiving what we are. It could be called
a small part of the perception of the luminous body.
You take ALL the awareness of *both* luminous
spheres (body/energy body) into the third attention,
as pure awareness that has transcended its usual
structure entirely.
I know, because, because... well... okay... :)
>RS:
>> Don Genaro once disappeared right before
>>Carlos' eyes, almost like someone transporting
>>on Star Trek. I think it all comes back to the
>>assemblage point.
>EE:
>It was my impression that that body of Genaro's
>was the other, which has the appearance of,
>but is actually not physical. Remember when Genaro
>couldn't eat? Funny guy.
Neither body is "physical". Or...alternately,
both are. :) They are both luminous spheres.
Both bodies have movable APs. Therefore,
a sorcerer, theoretically, could shift to another
world from *either* body---but the energy body
is said to be more powerful, so it is probably the
one they use to pull most of their "stunts".
>RS:
>>The apparent dichotomy between 'physical'
>>and 'energy' body is probably a configuration
>>of the AP. Change that configuration, or move
>> the AP, and the dichotomy vanishes in a puff
>>of smoke (or perhaps a sulfuric-like yellow fog
>> ;-).
This is a fascinating area. The sorcerers have
insisted that body/energy body is a true duality.
And yet, at the third gate of dreaming those
realities are said to be "merged" somehow.
There are many questions here.
My mind is too tired to go into them now, though... :)
>EE:
>>"What do you think it means that sorcerers goes
>>'hat, shoes and all', and why that's the way to go?"
They take EVERYTHING they are.
It's that simple.
When Genaro disappeared in front of CC,
(by assembling another world completely)
he didn't leave his pants laying on the ground. :)
(his "pants" were part of an AP position that was
no longer being aligned, just as was the rest
of him)
>EE:
>I think we've talked all the way around the subject,
>and I've enjoyed this conversation - we've covered
>alot of interesting ground ... but the question we
>started with remains unanswered. Why would one
>need a physical body in the 3rd attention, which is,
>from all indications, not a physcial reality as we know it?
One wouldn't, not any more than one absolutely
needs one in the second attention (where the
dreaming body of choice is said by don Juan
to be a "ball of light").
~
"URAKA!"
EE
EE:
> >...So the Eagle gets to eat the ME awarness.
> >That's not to say that there isn't anything beyond that.
DrBlmnfnkl:
> "At the moment of dying, all of our being disintegrates
> under the attraction of that immense force."
>
> (FFW, 54)
>
> All of our being...
There you have it. All of our being.
But what if our awareness is part of our being while we're alive ... and
something else when our being no longer exists.
[]
> The "unit of awareness"? What is life itself?
Indeed. What is life?
> Well, this is too grand a question for me,
> but...of course we must speculate...
Yes, of course, we must ....
> "Awareness is a glow in the cocoon of living beings."
>
> (FFW, 62)
>
> But is that glow "life"? Or is "life" ALL of us, totality?
> Can that glow of awareness exist without the infinite
> emanations to align, and without the pressure that
> makes those emanations fixate our awareness when
> they become aligned via the AP?
Why not? Beyond experiencing awareness in our own little way, we know
next to nothing about it ... but still we love to speculate.
> On the other hand,
> a new "life" is formed by "a merging, a fusing of two
> pieces of the glow of awareness, one from each
> partner, that separate from their cocoons". (FFW, 70)
>
> Somehow, that new merged "glow" gets placed
> inside a new bubble which is itself attached to the
> infinite emanations. But again, is what we call "life"
> *only* that glow.
What do you mean *only*? That's one helluva mysterious glow.
> It seems to require the structure
> and the emanations to assemble as well (at least,
> at this stage of "life").
It may be a multi-purpose glow. Adaptive, creative, evolving. It may not
be what it seems.
> So "life" is a conglomerate
> of awareness and something of which to be aware,
> which is "held together" and "regulated" by a
> "binding force" which is itself the ultimate mystery,
> intent, the spirit.
Yet just as the spirit permeates everything, the nagual permeates
everything.
> >EE:
> >Kind of makes you think that there must have
> >been some independent unit of awareness operating.
> Ya think that "independent unit" comes from mommy,
> or daddy? :)
Recent studies show that the independent unit is inherited from the
mother along with the mitochondrial DNA.
> (No, you clarify this idea later...jes funnin'...)
Me too. :-)
Our awareness has a nagual aspect to it - the impersonal part of our
awareness. Our unit comes, not from mom or dad, but from the nagual.
> >EE:
> >Here's the thing, Randy ... complex knowledge
> >is often distilled down to a level that the average joe
> >can absorb ...
> We are trying to talk in linear fashion about something
> that ISN'T linear. These "models" of awareness are
> as close as reason can come to "comprehending" life.
It's OK to try to comprehend ... it's a good thing ... it stretches the
boundaries of your imagination ... it's inspiring to think about ...
it's so ... mysterious.
> But there it is very likely that it will ALWAYS be more
> than that really---it will remain beyond "comprehension"
> by reason, whether by an average joe, or a genius.
Absolutely. The only real option for anyone is to *feel* it.
But on a practical level, there may be stuff that dJ told them, or that
they've learned, that they haven't told you yet. :-)
> >Perhaps the energy body is the binding force
> >that holds the physical and energy bodies together
> To continue with the linear attempt...
Yes, Doctor .... please carry on ....
> The energy body is a luminous sphere,
> as is the body. We are dual beings,
> and our true duality is body-energy body,
> connected by an "ethereal connection".
Yes. But consider this - every duality has a single source, as sure as 2
follows 1. Everything comes from the nagual.
> Notice, when you bring the energy body
> into the picture, it becomes more complex.
Duh ... Exqueeze me, pally!
(I know, I know ... it's not the same when I say it ... but I tried ...
I know how you miss him ;-) ... we all do .... Where are ya BigGuy?
We're dying over here!! )
> Two assemblage points, two cocoons,
> and *connected* via the AP's. And at some
> point, sorcerers *merge* these into a "unit"
> of sorts.
Wouldn't this be when sorcerers reach the totality of themselves?
> >and is the matrix through which consciousness/energy
> >is filtered. It would then house the consciousness
> >that is ME. That's why we don't lose a sense of
> >our personal identity when we go into the
> >energetic realms - the second attention, or dreaming.
> >The energy body, though it is more directly
> >linked to the emanations at large, intent, still houses
> >a personal individuated awareness.
> ME is just a small part of the awareness of our body,
> our luminous sphere, a small collection of AP positions
> with which we are extremely familiar, and STUCK in.
True enough. There's more to it than what we think we know.
> The reason we don't lose our sense of identity when
> dreaming is that we are dual beings. The energy body
> IS "the self", just like the body is. It still feels like you
> because it IS.
That's my point - these are personal/tonal aspects. Where's the nagual
in all of this?
[]
> So what is "life"? It is ALL of that, and yet,
> it can become something different entirely.
> To burn with the fire from within is to abandon
> the "structure" of the cocoons and the APs,
> to undergo a sort of metamorphosis, and with
> a "merged awareness" of some kind, including
> the awareness of body AND energy body,
> fuse to the emanations at large and glide away
> into the infinite. Words failed even don Juan
> at this point, so....
:-)
A "merged awareness" of some kind. Plenty of room for speculation.
> >By the core unit of awareness, I mean an
> >impersonal unit of awareness that is part of
> >the body, if you will, of IT.
I might have added ....
The nagual aspect of awareness.
> Yes, if there is such a "unit", it has to lie in
> the personal connection to the spirit, the
> force that holds together body and energy body.
Not necessarily. If the unit is seen as the nagual aspect it would
precede manfestations of the tonal.
> I'm not at all sure there is such a thing, though.
You are shattering my illusions with your cruel words. :-)
[]
> If you "shed" either body, "you" die, and the
> energy and awareness that composed "you"
> disintegrates, the "awareness" returns to the Eagle
Just because nobody's awareness ever came back from the Eagle to tell
you about it, doesn't mean there isn't something going on in there! ;-)
What if ... the individual unit of awareness is the nagual aspect, the
nagual being where everything comes from. This would make the unit of
awareness the primary manifestation. From IT come the other
manifestations of individuated awareness. dJ himself said that at birth
we are mostly nagual. The source of our awareness is the nagual.
[]
> You don't take your "physical body" into the
> third attention. Your "physical body" is just one
> way of perceiving what we are. It could be called
> a small part of the perception of the luminous body.
> You take ALL the awareness of *both* luminous
> spheres (body/energy body) into the third attention,
> as pure awareness that has transcended its usual
> structure entirely.
>
> I know, because, because... well... okay... :)
I know you know, but I'm still speculating. :-)
Maybe it's how awareness evolves itself. Perhaps the spark for the fire
from within comes from the nagual - the individual unit of awareness
resonating with the nagual of which it is part. You evolve awareness by
resonating with your source while retaining your unit. Still
speculating.
[]
> >RS:
> >>The apparent dichotomy between 'physical'
> >>and 'energy' body is probably a configuration
> >>of the AP. Change that configuration, or move
> >> the AP, and the dichotomy vanishes in a puff
> >>of smoke (or perhaps a sulfuric-like yellow fog
> >> ;-).
> This is a fascinating area. The sorcerers have
> insisted that body/energy body is a true duality.
> And yet, at the third gate of dreaming those
> realities are said to be "merged" somehow.
> There are many questions here.
>
> My mind is too tired to go into them now, though... :)
Mine too ... :-)
But that doesn't mean we can't talk about it when our synapses are again
firing at optimum efficiency.
EE
kim venti
>What does that mean?
>
>Randy
>
>". . . never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
>-- John Donne
"Rave On" -Van Morrison
Rave on John Donne, rave on thy Holy fool
Down through the weeks of ages
In the moss borne dark dank pools
Rave on, down through the industrial revolution
Empiricism, atomic and nuclear age
Rave on down through time and space down through the corridors
Rave on words on printed page
Rave on, you leftist infinity
And well pressed pages torn to fade
Drive on with wild abandon
Uptempo, frenzied heels
Marilyn
Dr. B wrote:
>At the third gate of dreaming those
>realities are said to be "merged"
The third gate is reached when dreamers finds themselves in a dream
looking at someone who is asleep and that someone is themselves. At the
third gate, dreamers begin to deliberately merge their dreaming reality
with the reality of their daily world and this merging is called
completing the energy body. The drill of the third gate is moving the
energy body by itself, and the real task is "seeing" energy with the
energy body.
The energy body.
"A counterpart of the physical body. A ghostlike configuration made of
pure energy. It has only appearance, but no mass. It can perform acts
that are beyond the possiblilities of the physical body. A dreamer, on
crossing the first gate has already reached the energy body. The true
goal of dreaming is to perfect the energy body. The effort that
dreamers have to make to direct the energy body is staggering. To reach
the energy body you will need energy."
Don Juan, TAOD
EE wrote:
>Everything comes from the nagual
>The source of our awareness
>is the nagual
"The power that governs the destiny of all living beings is called the
Eagle. It is the indescribable force which is the source of all
sentient beings, so that they will live and enrich the awareness it
gives them with life. The Eagle bestows awareness. Man is composed of
the Eagle's emanations, everything is made out of the Eagles's
emanations. Awareness is bestowed by means of three giant bundles of
emanations that run through eight great bands. The three bundles with
all their casts (colors) crisscross the eight bands. Human beings are
made of the emanations and are in essence bubbles of luminescent energy;
each of us wrapped in a cocoon that encloses a small portion of these
emanations. That awareness is achieved by the constant pressure that
the emanations outside our cocoons, which are called emanations at
large, exert on those inside our cocoons. That awareness gives rise to
perception, which happens when the emanations inside our cocoons align
themselves with the corresponding emanations at large. The assemblage
point selects internal and external emanations for alignment.
Don Juan, TFFW
EE wrote:
>But on a practical level, there may
>be stuff that DJ told them, or that
>they've learned, that they haven't
>told you yet
What an excellent point this is. Castaneda states that the later books
were information that took him years to disseminate from the second
attention. When you consider how many years Castaneda has been involved
in this, you have to think that there is ALOT of information that has
not been shared with the public at large. The magical passes are a good
example. These were known to all of DJ's apprentices, but were kept a
secret known only to them. Only with the recent decision of Castaneda,
Tiggs, Abelar, and Donner to desseminate them and give them to us, has
anyone known of these. Who knows what other things that cannot be given
forth to the public. Seems a little frustrating that we may not have all
the pieces to the puzzle.
M
NgWings
Marilyn wrote:
> Seems a little frustrating that we may not have all the pieces to the
> puzzle.
It is even more frustrating that we have to do the work ourselves. No
nagual's blows sending us into the 2'nd attention, no magic pill to
turn us into something inconceivable, no tricks to blow our minds, no
holy scriptures showing the ultimate truth.
JulianTh...@yahoo.com
True. Our petty reason tries to keep us from acting because it is scared
that "we may not have all the pieces to the puzzle." What good does it
do for our reason to have all the pieces, unless our body puts them
together through action?
One ounce of impeccability equals one inch of warrior; inch by inch we
create the six foot form of the warrior. Easy eh?
Julian
Remy
NgWings wrote in message <1998011923292...@nym.alias.net>...
>Marilyn wrote:
>
>> Seems a little frustrating that we may not have all the pieces to the
>> puzzle.
>
>It is even more frustrating that we have to do the work ourselves. No
>nagual's blows sending us into the 2'nd attention, no magic pill to
>turn us into something inconceivable, no tricks to blow our minds, no
>holy scriptures showing the ultimate truth.
>
WHAT and miss all the fun of getting there, sounds like religion alll of a
sudden, dip me in water and call holy.
Marilyn
Julian wrote:
>One ounce of impeccability equals
>one inch of warrior; inch by inch
>we create the six foot form of the
>warrior. Easy eh?
Also, one ounce of impeccability releases a pound of garbage that is in
our way to reaching our goals.
But Julian, your equation taken literally is pretty funny.
6 ft. = 72 in.
72 in. = 72 oz.
72 oz. = 4.5 lbs.
Man, that's one skinny 6 ft. warrior! :-D
Now, since I'm 5' 4" -
5' 4" = 64 in.
64 in. = 64 oz.
64 oz. = 4 lbs.
Wow, no more dieting. Kate Moss look out!
:-) Marilyn
Gary Murphy
NgWings wrote:
> Marilyn wrote:
>
> > Seems a little frustrating that we may not have all the pieces to
> the
> > puzzle.
>
> It is even more frustrating that we have to do the work ourselves. No
> nagual's blows sending us into the 2'nd attention, no magic pill to
> turn us into something inconceivable, no tricks to blow our minds, no
> holy scriptures showing the ultimate truth.
I DON'T BELIEVE IT.
GET IT INTO YOUR HEADS .
IF YOU CAN KEEP THE CONCEPTS
IN YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS YOU DON'T
NEED A NAGUAL, BECAUSE THATS ALL HE SHE
OR THE SPIRIT ITSELF COULD DO.
NO ONE EVER WAS PUSHED INTO THE
SECOND ATTENTION. CARLITOS WAS A GOOD
BOY, WHO SAVED HIS ENERGY.
AND THAT, AND ONLY THAT,
IS WHAT COUNTS AND HOW IT'S REACHED
Gary Murphy
NgWings wrote:
> Marilyn wrote:
>
> > Seems a little frustrating that we may not have all the pieces to
> the
> > puzzle.
>
> It is even more frustrating that we have to do the work ourselves. No
> nagual's blows sending us into the 2'nd attention, no magic pill to
> turn us into something inconceivable, no tricks to blow our minds, no
> holy scriptures showing the ultimate truth.
WHAT BITS ARE MISSING?
AND IF I FIND THE PIECES, CAN I SELL
THEM FOR AS MUCH AS THE BOOKS
OR THE VIDEOS?
THE REAL SORCERERS EMERGING NOW
HAVE THE VERSION IN WHICH CASTANEDAS PITIFUL
DIALOGUE HAS BEEN REMOVED AND WE CAN CONCENTRATE ON
USING THE CONCEPT OF THE EVIL EAGLE TO GET US TO SHIFT OUR BUTTS. THERE
ARE OTHER WAYS TO LEARN SORCERY.
LOOK ITS LIKE THIS
THE OLD EAGLE DESCRIPTION IS FRANKLY OUT OF DATE.
IT WORKED ON THE LITTLE KIDS IT WAS USED ON
BUT TIMES CHANGE.
THERE IS A MORE ADVANCED VIEW.
DON JUAN HIMSELF OFTEN REGRETTED LATER ON HAVING USED HIS BENEFACTORS
TERMS WITH CARLOS
NOW I COME TO THIS SITE AND FIND YOU ALL DOING THE SAME THING.
TRYING TO FRIGHTEN YOURSELVES INTO SORCERY.
I'M GOING TO WRITE HERE ONE MORE THING
IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO DISCOVER IT'S MEANING
, WONT YOU.
LAS LINIAS NO SE HAN ACABADO, QUE VA.
OS ESPERAMOS AQUI
EN LOS LUGARES DEL SOÑADOR
ALLI DONDE SE ENCUENTRA
EL MAS ALLA.
CUENTANOS SU CUENTO
SI DE VERDAD TIENES ALGO QUE CONTAR
TODOS TENEMOS UN ILUSION
ES SU DESEO IGUAL A SU ILUSION
VEAMOS
RStark1957
Gary Murphy:
"I'M GOING TO WRITE HERE ONE MORE THING"
Wonderful, oh pontificating one . . .
Try releasing your caps key. You might have more success getting your assinine
shit through. Otherwise you're just shouting like a fucking moron.
Randy
NgWings
Gary Murphy wrote:
> NO ONE EVER WAS PUSHED INTO THE
> SECOND ATTENTION.
Carlos has written extensively about how he was pushed by the nagual's
blow.
> CARLITOS WAS A GOOD
> BOY, WHO SAVED HIS ENERGY.
> AND THAT, AND ONLY THAT,
> IS WHAT COUNTS AND HOW IT'S REACHED
Yes, absolutely. In the end he had to claim the power by himself.