Art of Dreaming Synopsis
ramiga
of human beings.
Only the energy filaments that pass directly through the assemblage
point can be assembled into coherent perception.
If the assemblage point is displaced to another position, no matter how
minute the displacement, different and unaccustomed energy filaments
begin to pass through it, engaging awareness and forcing the assembling
of these unaccustomed energy fields into a steady, coherent perception.
In the course of ordinary dreams, the assemblage point becomes easily
displaced by itself to another position on the surface or in the
interior of the luminous egg.
The assemblage point can be made to move to positions outside the
luminous egg, into the energy filaments of the universe at large.
Through discipline it is possible to cultivate and perform, in the
course of sleep and ordinary dreams, a systematic displacement of the
assemblage point.
http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/donjuan9.html
I would like to see more of this in this group, personal experiences.
Please share.
peace, mmgr
http://www.marmsweb.com
Jeremy H. Donovan
There is no evidence for the existence of "the assemblage point", and
there is voluminous evidence strongly implying that there could not be
any such thing as "the assemblage point".
-Jeremy
chris rodgers
curl...@yahoo.com
You create a pattern by the perception of something.
The continuity of awareness is your perceptual field.
Existence only occurs through the act of perception.
- Zen Master Rama
Eldon Leighton Donovan
"ramiga"
> Only the energy filaments that pass directly through the assemblage
> point can be assembled into coherent perception.
> I would like to see more of this in this group, personal experiences.
> Please share.
Fuck off, please...
clave_scri...@spl.at
what are the five conditions? any suggestions on an activity that we
can follow as a group?
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
> ok - let's start working this
>
> what are the five conditions?
### - the five conditions... of what exactly?
any suggestions on an activity that we
> can follow as a group?
### - lucid dreaming... or rather: the WILD version of it?
i.e. a slight twist on the more usual, very difficult really, lucid
dreaming... in that it's not actually necessary to fall asleep first in
order to experience the dreaming state...
WILD equals... Waking-Induced Lucid Dreaming.
clave_scri...@spl.at
-
ok, i'm up for it, let's see if any others hop on
Eldon Leighton Donovan
"clave_scri...@spl.at"
> well ramiga refers of the five condiitons anchoring the art of dreaming
> -
>
> ok, i'm up for it, let's see if any others hop on
>
Hop on this, cocksucker...
lol
The conditions of a solitary bird are five:
The first, that it flies to the highest point;
The second, that it does not suffer for company,
not even of its own kind;
The third, that it aims its beak to the skies;
The fourth, that it does not have a definite color;
The fifth, that it sings very softly.
~St. John of the Cross
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
> well ramiga refers of the five condiitons anchoring the art of dreaming
> -
>
> ok, i'm up for it, let's see if any others hop on
### - The 'how' of: Waking-Induced Lucid Dreaming...
The WILD form of lucid dreaming is actually vastly easier than the more
usual lucid dreaming that its practitioners are used to, and which perforce
requires a person to first fall-asleep before entering into the dreaming
state, a nearly impossible thing to achieve.
WILD, on the other hand, is much easier to attain in that it requires
little discipline by comparison and is achieved in the moments preceding
sleep proper by deliberately becoming aware of subtle changes in awareness
just before falling asleep that are normally ignored.
e.g. after lying down and getting oneself comfortable, several slow
exhalations coupled with the visualisation of all tension leaving the body
results in a very relaxed state (i.e. the aim here is to attain the bodily
sensation that one has become a dead-weight in that if someone were to
gently lift one of your limbs and let go again then it would just flop/fall
back to where it was without any muscular volition on your part)
it's important at this stage not to move at all, which if persisted with,
results in a rather strange feeling of physical expansion and/or floating, a
feeling which is immediately dispelled if the body moves or changes
position.
look + wait for this floaty-feeling... and when it occurs use it as a signal
to begin the next stage which consists of now ignoring any strange
sensations in-favour of watching for some visual effects that will appear
shortly
e.g. at first it might just be lights and/or blobs of colour floating about
behind one's closed eyes, but this is quickly followed by vague images and
half-pictures... do nothing at this stage, just watch them changing/shifting
etc
after a while a more-clear image will arise, then another... again at this
stage do nothing but observe them, let them come, let them go, and because
at one point a really sharp image of something will appear (sometimes
shockingly so) then another... which is the signal to move-on to the next
stage
i.e. as soon as these much clearer images of places & things start to arise,
the thing to do now is to stare hard at any one of them, deliberately
focusing in on the detail of it, the initial effect of which is to slow the
image down in the sense that these types of images tend to persist for
longer if handled in this way, if the image fades (or escapes) just do it
again to the next one, and so on until... one has the feeling of 'arresting'
them...
without warning you will suddenly be powerfully pulled right into one of
these images in a 'zooming' fashion, only to then find yourself walking
around in a perfectly lucid dream & dreaming state, the initial jolt of
which has had me on many occasions personally bouncing back & forth between
dreaming & waking several times until something inside kinda lets go, from
which point on it then becomes totally a matter of volition as to which
state of being (either waking or dreaming) one wishes to be in/experience...
i.e. unless you have a talent for it forget normal lucid dreaming, and
because WILD's are incredibly easy, (it took me 15 years of trying (and
failing) to lucid dream the usual way only to stumble across WILD while
trying)
and i mean Maaaaan... it really 'is' WILD! (lol, so apt :)
(would also love to hear from anyone else experiencing this particular form
of lucid dreaming)
from slider...
_cl...@operamail.com
http://villa.lakes.com/cdpatton/Dharma/Basics/5-skandhas.html
any suggestions on an activity that we
> can follow as a group?
vipassana.
_cl...@operamail.com
_cl...@operamail.com wrote:
> clave_scri...@spl.at wrote:
> > ok - let's start working this
> >
> > what are the five conditions?
>
>
> http://villa.lakes.com/cdpatton/Dharma/Basics/5-skandhas.html
or this: http://www.srds.co.uk/begin/skandhas.htm
theres a zillion links to this so make a pick... but my guess is that
this is what is referred too.
>
>
>
> any suggestions on an activity that we
> > can follow as a group?
>
> vipassana.
thats theravada, but tibetan (mahayana) buddhism are into the dreaming
stuff (which i have for the time being lost interest in) and works
with that so perhaps its better to look for something there. anyways,
so many other ways as well... I combine praying the Rosary with Kriya
yoga per ex. First i do the meditation and asanas to slow down
breathing and internal noise, and from there i pray, which works for
me. So, i suggest praying the Rosary as a group-activity ;)
Hail Mary,
full of grace,
the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death.
chris rodgers
> full of grace,
> the Lord is with you.
>
> Blessed are you among women
> and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
>
> Holy Mary, mother of God,
> pray for us sinners
> now and at the hour of our death.
slider
chriso wrote...
Dear Creator:
### - To the visiting Aliens of the far distant future :
I am no-one of any particular importance, just an average person living
during the time in what appears to be the end of civilisation as we
currently know it. Whether human-kind survives as a species during this
collapse is highly debateable plus not very likely, as indeed is it that
'any' life will remain on this planet by the time we're done screwing with
it.
Sorry there was no one here to greet you, we were a rather dumb race that
squandered our short existence burying our heads in the sand rather than to
ever risk looking life squarely in the eye. Considering our behaviour we
probably didn't deserve to survive.
Take this as a warning, research all our past activities and learn thereby,
don't ever do what we did, and may 'your' race fare much better than ours.
All the best from a long-dead + forgotten humanity. :)
clave_scri...@spl.at
> stage do nothing but observe them, let them come, let them go, and because
> at one point a really sharp image of something will appear (sometimes
> shockingly so) then another... which is the signal to move-on to the next
> stage
>
screen in my mind's eye, which i can see other things through, but it
is black around the egdes
> i.e. as soon as these much clearer images of places & things start to arise,
> the thing to do now is to stare hard at any one of them, deliberately
> focusing in on the detail of it, the initial effect of which is to slow the
> image down in the sense that these types of images tend to persist for
> longer if handled in this way, if the image fades (or escapes) just do it
> again to the next one, and so on until... one has the feeling of 'arresting'
> them...
>
ok, i'll try this tonight
is that basically what staring at the hands is, same technique?
> without warning you will suddenly be powerfully pulled right into one of
> these images in a 'zooming' fashion, only to then find yourself walking
> around in a perfectly lucid dream & dreaming state, the initial jolt of
> which has had me on many occasions personally bouncing back & forth between
> dreaming & waking several times until something inside kinda lets go, from
> which point on it then becomes totally a matter of volition as to which
> state of being (either waking or dreaming) one wishes to be in/experience...
>
"into"? like inside of the image/object? odd, i've noticed zooming
quite a bit, usually when i first start to change my consciousness from
waking, i'll catch it, but not totally clear, usually obscure or gray
and kind of hazy
> i.e. unless you have a talent for it forget normal lucid dreaming, and
> because WILD's are incredibly easy, (it took me 15 years of trying (and
> failing) to lucid dream the usual way only to stumble across WILD while
> trying)
>
> and i mean Maaaaan... it really 'is' WILD! (lol, so apt :)
>
i've read about MILD and WILD before, but have been focussed on
projection and obes, so never really gave it a try
> (would also love to hear from anyone else experiencing this particular form
> of lucid dreaming)
>
> from slider...
over & out
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
>> after a while a more-clear image will arise, then another... again at
>> this
>> stage do nothing but observe them, let them come, let them go, and
>> because
>> at one point a really sharp image of something will appear (sometimes
>> shockingly so) then another... which is the signal to move-on to the next
>> stage
>>
> this is the part where i usually drop out, sometimes i also get like a
> screen in my mind's eye, which i can see other things through, but it
> is black around the egdes
### - can't tell you the sheer number of times i've fallen fast-asleep like
a stone at this point hehehe... one moment i'm intently watching the images
+ waiting for perceptual cues, and the next it's time to get up and have
breakfast, Doh! not again!! (it's like groundhog day in-reverse, i tell ya:)
>
>> i.e. as soon as these much clearer images of places & things start to
>> arise,
>> the thing to do now is to stare hard at any one of them, deliberately
>> focusing in on the detail of it, the initial effect of which is to slow
>> the
>> image down in the sense that these types of images tend to persist for
>> longer if handled in this way, if the image fades (or escapes) just do it
>> again to the next one, and so on until... one has the feeling of
>> 'arresting'
>> them...
>>
> ok, i'll try this tonight
>
> is that basically what staring at the hands is, same technique?
### - i couldn't really say, but it was from that idea (of Castaneda's), and
as a kind of practice, that i first started trying to observe the details of
these fleeting images before falling asleep (i.e. i'd figured that a little
practice beforehand might result in my doing/repeating something similar in
a dream) - but which instead one-time resulted in freezing the images
(slowing them down) which allowed me to then examine them in much more
detail (quite interesting:) - the persistent result of which was to be
suddenly pulled, without any volition on my part, into a completely lucid
dreaming state that damn near shocked the goddamned life out of me lol, what
a surprise! and i hadn't even fallen asleep yet!! yikes! :)
to my added surprise this same shock (or severe jolt) sent me zooming/flying
right back to being in bed lying down, just as if some giant hand had
suddenly reached down and yanked me back up out of it, where i was very
quickly indeed trying to repeat the experience (really laughing :) -
something that happened that night over & over until something inside me
got-over it's shock + learned to 'choose' whether to jump into a lucid dream
or back into bed at-will, or indeed, to be in both places at the same time
should i so choose (was actually some of the weirdest shit i've ever
experienced hehehe, went on for 5 hours that first time, was high for days
afterwards :)
>
>> without warning you will suddenly be powerfully pulled right into one of
>> these images in a 'zooming' fashion, only to then find yourself walking
>> around in a perfectly lucid dream & dreaming state, the initial jolt of
>> which has had me on many occasions personally bouncing back & forth
>> between
>> dreaming & waking several times until something inside kinda lets go,
>> from
>> which point on it then becomes totally a matter of volition as to which
>> state of being (either waking or dreaming) one wishes to be
>> in/experience...
>>
> "into"? like inside of the image/object? odd, i've noticed zooming
> quite a bit, usually when i first start to change my consciousness from
> waking, i'll catch it, but not totally clear, usually obscure or gray
> and kind of hazy
### - might be other uses of 'zooming', i suspect as much... and yes it is
just like zooming right into a fixed/frozen image in front of me... e.g. the
flat image of say a random landscape becomes frozen + more than intricately
detailed & then suddenly swells into something more 3-dimensional + swallows
you whole until you're right 'in' the picture (e.g. there is often the
sensation of falling/going down as you go in, just as there is a rising
feeling/sensation when you jump back up out of it, don't know why it's like
that, subjective experience only perhaps, some people might experience
moving sideways, i dunno :)
>
>> i.e. unless you have a talent for it forget normal lucid dreaming, and
>> because WILD's are incredibly easy, (it took me 15 years of trying (and
>> failing) to lucid dream the usual way only to stumble across WILD while
>> trying)
>>
>> and i mean Maaaaan... it really 'is' WILD! (lol, so apt :)
>>
> i've read about MILD and WILD before, but have been focussed on
> projection and obes, so never really gave it a try
### - i'm beginning to think that these WILD's are really the easiest form
of lucid dreaming that with very little practice just about anyone can do,
plus seemingly requires no others skills other than to be determined to
examine the few moments of (altered) awareness absolutely everyone
experiences just before falling asleep every night...
lol in fact the only 'difficult' part about it is trying 'not' to fall
straight-off into ordinary sleep like a dead log, and because for some
strange reason playing around with these images even seems to exacerbate
falling asleep, might even be a cure for insomnia haha (actually i suspect
that hitching an unconscious ride with these images every night is exactly
'how' we all manage to fall asleep in the first place, something very weird
that's become totally routine, only apparently one doesn't have to go into
it (whatever the sleeping state really is, an altered state perhaps) without
awareness, i.e. we can do it consciously/with awareness as well
e.g. doing it 'unconsciously' (which requires no skill at all hehe:)
apparently results in ordinary non lucid dreams, whereas doing the same
thing 'consciously' leads into something else again, in this instance: the
freedom to consciously explore/probe dreaming states, & human awareness
under those conditions, at will :)
> over & out
### - smile... heh, over & 'in' ;-)
clave_scri...@spl.at
> of lucid dreaming)
>
> from slider...
here's my results - not WILD mind you, but kind of wild
01/05/06
3:50 am
attempted twice to wake induce lucid dream, and ended up in a dream,
not fully lucid, where the "steak rustler" repeatedly was trying to
get me, it was as if the dream scene were being tried over, 2 or 3
times, a set up
steak rustler was a native american cowboy ghoul, and after the 2nd or
3rd attempt to get me, he complimented me, saying that i was good, as
good as they said, and as good as him, hard to get, etc. - i replied
that he could give me some (meaning his abilities)
what would happen is that i'd be observing a crowd of people and out
of the center would be a commotion, and steak rustler would emerge out
of the crowd more or less in my direction, making jerky fast chaotic
movements, then i would be in another location nearby, as if i'd
teleported, and he would follow me, but never able to grasp me, while i
had the feeling that he was trying to get me
what i mean by ghoul is that his face was stretched, greenish gray,
marred, not like living flesh, still, i wasn't scared at all, i've
seen this type of being before, and am wondering if they aren't truly
discarnate
next at 4:15 i was involved in a scene where it was handling a black
skull, it wasn't a real skull, but a carving or some kind of
reproduction
i sensed the african-ness of it, and lightly banged it on a surface,
and noticed several amulets drop out, as i looked and sensed it was as
if the skull communicated to me, i heard "one of the causes is a
thousand pieces"
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
### - smile, not so much WILD as Weird hehe...
e.g. one of the really fascinating things i've discovered so far about
WILD's is the fact that seeing and/or meeting with other people/beings in a
dream is left entirely up to the dreamer in that the initial stage of
dreaming via WILD's is always totally devoid of any other beings until you
will yourself to see them/go to them
the only difficulty with this being that seeing/meeting other people/beings
in WILD's is always accompanied by the loss of a certain amount of lucidity
in that one has to struggle from then on to remain lucid, almost as if
dealing with other people in a dream actually requires more energy, or
attention, or something
i.e. strange things begin to happen as soon as other people appear on the
dreaming-scene, don't exactly know why yet, but it becomes like wading
through water whenever you try to see/deal with them... solution so far has
been to just jump back into the empty dream for a recharge whenever i felt i
was losing too much lucidity, gather my wits there, and then maybe try
again...
(c'mon folks, there must be someone out there who's been doing this
WILD-thing as well, i'm talking need for feedback here! :)
ThreeWolves
"Jeremy H. Donovan" <JeremyH...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135960271....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
So, in this it doesn't matter what I could possibly say or share of my
experience, nothing is possible. I have become the unknown that you became
dissalusioned about. fascinating. I don't believe I even expect a reply.
MX
>### - might be other uses of 'zooming', i suspect as much... and yes it is
>just like zooming right into a fixed/frozen image in front of me... e.g. the
>flat image of say a random landscape becomes frozen + more than intricately
>detailed & then suddenly swells into something more 3-dimensional + swallows
>you whole until you're right 'in' the picture (e.g. there is often the
>sensation of falling/going down as you go in, just as there is a rising
>feeling/sensation when you jump back up out of it, don't know why it's like
>that, subjective experience only perhaps, some people might experience
>moving sideways, i dunno :)
Using "your" technique slider, I got some results so far. Got pulled
into the fleeting scenery few times, but not into solid and really
"real" scene you are describing.
Do you use any "special" practices to fixate your attention after it's
been pulled into the image (or, to use CC words, after AP has been
displaced and then fixed again)?
slider
"MX" wrote...
### - hi ya... interesting that it might be possible to 'zoom' even the
fleeting images before the really solid ones arrive, haven't tried that,
didn't know i had that choice hehe... plus hasn't happened to me like that
so far... so far it's always been straight off into the really-real dreams,
only the really solid images seem to pull me, with only the usual lucid
dreaming techniques needed to follow-on (e.g. once there deliberately
treating the dreaming scene like it's an everyday event lest you're quickly
booted out of it etc, the less shock/joy/amazement one indulges in the
longer the dream remains i mean :)
MX
>### - hi ya... interesting that it might be possible to 'zoom' even the
>fleeting images before the really solid ones arrive, haven't tried that,
>didn't know i had that choice hehe... plus hasn't happened to me like that
>so far... so far it's always been straight off into the really-real dreams,
>only the really solid images seem to pull me, with only the usual lucid
>dreaming techniques needed to follow-on (e.g. once there deliberately
>treating the dreaming scene like it's an everyday event lest you're quickly
>booted out of it etc, the less shock/joy/amazement one indulges in the
>longer the dream remains i mean :)
Well, as I recall, there were some more vivid and "real" images
involved, yes, but nothing really shockingly sharp /solid.
So far, at least...
:)
Tnx.
:)
MX
>the only difficulty with this being that seeing/meeting other people/beings
>in WILD's is always accompanied by the loss of a certain amount of lucidity
>in that one has to struggle from then on to remain lucid, almost as if
>dealing with other people in a dream actually requires more energy, or
>attention, or something
Hmm.
Which is it, in your opinion?
Energy (what kind of energy)?
Attention?
Something else, what?
>i.e. strange things begin to happen as soon as other people appear on the
>dreaming-scene, don't exactly know why yet, but it becomes like wading
>through water whenever you try to see/deal with them... solution so far has
>been to just jump back into the empty dream for a recharge whenever i felt i
>was losing too much lucidity, gather my wits there, and then maybe try
>again...
>
>(c'mon folks, there must be someone out there who's been doing this
>WILD-thing as well, i'm talking need for feedback here! :)
I have more experiences with DILD... and in such dreams other persons
did not have much influence on my dreaming attention.
Of course, they were not really real persons...or at least none of
them remembered being in dreams with me...
While on the subject, what are the differences IN dreams attained via
WILD and DILD?
slider
MX wrote
> Well, as I recall, there were some more vivid and "real" images
> involved, yes, but nothing really shockingly sharp /solid.
> So far, at least...
> :)
### - try hanging back a bit then if that's the case... the really clear
images (and i mean shockingly 'clear') can take a little while to begin
appearing, the sharpness & clarity of them is never anything less than
surprising, plus have often forced me to open my eyes just to make sure they
were still closed (Doh!! :)
slider
MX wrote...
>>the only difficulty with this being that seeing/meeting other
>>people/beings
>>in WILD's is always accompanied by the loss of a certain amount of
>>lucidity
>>in that one has to struggle from then on to remain lucid, almost as if
>>dealing with other people in a dream actually requires more energy, or
>>attention, or something
>
> Hmm.
> Which is it, in your opinion?
> Energy (what kind of energy)?
> Attention?
> Something else, what?
### - difficult one to answer that... it's almost like you have to fall
slightly more asleep/lose some lucidity in order to be seeing/dealing with
people in a dream, at least it seems to require more effort to maintain
lucidity under those more complicated circumstances - whereas the empty
dreams all seem to require almost no effort at all, in them one is seemingly
one's normal + usual self except you're dreaming and you know for sure it's
the case...
so i don't know really, could be energy (has a nice ring to it hehe :) or it
could be a lack of practice/experience (although i've had dozens of these
dreams by now) whatever it is it seems to equate with making more effort
within those people-dreams, which always coincides with strange + more
unusual things happening in them (the empty dreams are almost static by
comparison, nothing ever happens in them unless you personally initiate it)
>
>
>>i.e. strange things begin to happen as soon as other people appear on the
>>dreaming-scene, don't exactly know why yet, but it becomes like wading
>>through water whenever you try to see/deal with them... solution so far
>>has
>>been to just jump back into the empty dream for a recharge whenever i felt
>>i
>>was losing too much lucidity, gather my wits there, and then maybe try
>>again...
>>
>>(c'mon folks, there must be someone out there who's been doing this
>>WILD-thing as well, i'm talking need for feedback here! :)
>
> I have more experiences with DILD... and in such dreams other persons
> did not have much influence on my dreaming attention.
> Of course, they were not really real persons...or at least none of
> them remembered being in dreams with me...
### - smile, i can count all my DILD experiences nearly on one hand hehe,
totally useless apparently, smile, certainly been trying long enough... plus
which prompted me one-time to suggest to someone else that DILDs are perhaps
actually much harder to do than WILDs (takes more concentration, whatever,
or energy then to accomplish) and that when from the WILDs pov you happen
upon people, what's really happening is that you're beginning now to stray
into the same area (in awareness) as reached directly by DILD
in other words: in WILDs it's possible there's an intermediate area , a
jumping-off platform, that doesn't exist with DILDs, yet both methods lead
to the same place(s) in awareness (my guess being that seeing as you can
handle the populated DILDs, reaching the same place in awareness via WILDs
should (or might) be much more easy for you than for me, or for anyone
that's already able to handle the more complex DILDs...)
>
> While on the subject, what are the differences IN dreams attained via
> WILD and DILD?
### - considering the above... the only difference i can see so far is that
there's a place in WILDs where it's possible to practice all your lucid
dreaming techniques without any interference from the dream itself... (you
don't get pulled around i mean :)
whereas to see people (to move deeper into dreaming i suppose) requires an
act of will/intent in 'wanting' to see them, and then (for me anyhow) i can
feel myself falling asleep 'in' the dream and waking up in another, this
time a much busier one :)
MX
>### - try hanging back a bit then if that's the case... the really clear
>images (and i mean shockingly 'clear') can take a little while to begin
>appearing, the sharpness & clarity of them is never anything less than
>surprising, plus have often forced me to open my eyes just to make sure they
>were still closed (Doh!! :)
Yep.
Story of my (dreaming) life: I am too sharp, too anxious.
oh well.
tnx.
cr...@sbcglobal.net
> experience, nothing is possible. I have become the unknown that you became
> dissalusioned about. fascinating. I don't believe I even expect a reply.
clave_scri...@spl.at
> slightly more asleep/lose some lucidity in order to be seeing/dealing with
> people in a dream, at least it seems to require more effort to maintain
> lucidity under those more complicated circumstances - whereas the empty
> dreams all seem to require almost no effort at all, in them one is seemingly
> one's normal + usual self except you're dreaming and you know for sure it's
> the case...
>
> so i don't know really, could be energy (has a nice ring to it hehe :) or it
> could be a lack of practice/experience (although i've had dozens of these
> dreams by now) whatever it is it seems to equate with making more effort
> within those people-dreams, which always coincides with strange + more
> unusual things happening in them (the empty dreams are almost static by
> comparison, nothing ever happens in them unless you personally initiate it)
what about other animate objects, such as animals, or machines,maybe
it's just the fact that they are animate, where you have developed the
ability to "arrest" and slow down a inanimate or static object, that
may not work with moving objects, or interactivity
clave_scri...@spl.at
it's not coming through!!!
rbb
clave_scri...@spl.at
able to consciously express that
ok, what is "attention" in cc's nomencalture again? i seem to recall
the phrase "dreaming attention" too
clave_scri...@spl.at
true, true, but at least i can say i've an active dream life
> e.g. one of the really fascinating things i've discovered so far about
> WILD's is the fact that seeing and/or meeting with other people/beings in a
> dream is left entirely up to the dreamer in that the initial stage of
> dreaming via WILD's is always totally devoid of any other beings until you
> will yourself to see them/go to them
did you ever perchance zoom into a being though, rather than an
inanimate object, and experiment for you maybe?
> the only difficulty with this being that seeing/meeting other people/beings
> in WILD's is always accompanied by the loss of a certain amount of lucidity
> in that one has to struggle from then on to remain lucid, almost as if
> dealing with other people in a dream actually requires more energy, or
> attention, or something
theory, ok, maybe the loss of lucidity when beings are present is due
to the fact that you have split a part of your own consciousness off?
> i.e. strange things begin to happen as soon as other people appear on the
> dreaming-scene, don't exactly know why yet, but it becomes like wading
> through water whenever you try to see/deal with them... solution so far has
> been to just jump back into the empty dream for a recharge whenever i felt i
> was losing too much lucidity, gather my wits there, and then maybe try
> again...
like thick viscosity, or heavier gravity, what?
clave_scri...@spl.at
got that input form another source
clave_scri...@spl.at
then again, it wasn't a WILD . . .
did you ever "arrest" a being instead of a inanimate object, and zoom
into the being?
that's an interesting observation, maybe part of the reason one could
lose lucidity with other beings present is becuase they are acutally
aspects of one's own consciousenss, so one would have to share the
grain of lucidity among different parts of the self?
wading through water, like "thick", low density feeling?
clave_scri...@spl.at
browser
anyway good questions, i'd like to know too
i believe that we have inexhaustable energy, but i don't know how to
use it yet =)
the other thing, whjat is "dreaming attention" again?
on Lars Lucid Dreaming FAQs there's a bunch of comments on *ILDS - did
you see that?
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
### - not literally water or density... more like suddenly struggling hard
to remain lucid when everything in the dream is pulling you to let go & to
abandon the act of lucidity and to sink into the dream context which almost
seems to start doing its own thing under those populated conditions (i've
had DILDs that brought me to the same place of nearly 100%
lucidity/struggling to remain lucid position)
slider
"MX" wrote...
### - or maybe you're even quite talented in that direction (which could
come in very handy if 'zooming' things applies to more than just sharp
images & lucid dreams :)
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
> > ### - smile, not so much WILD as Weird hehe...
>
> true, true, but at least i can say i've an active dream life
>
>> e.g. one of the really fascinating things i've discovered so far about
>> WILD's is the fact that seeing and/or meeting with other people/beings in
>> a
>> dream is left entirely up to the dreamer in that the initial stage of
>> dreaming via WILD's is always totally devoid of any other beings until
>> you
>> will yourself to see them/go to them
>
> did you ever perchance zoom into a being though, rather than an
> inanimate object, and experiment for you maybe?
### - said something about this elsewhere... where i presumed you
meant 'outside' of dreaming?
>
>> the only difficulty with this being that seeing/meeting other
>> people/beings
>> in WILD's is always accompanied by the loss of a certain amount of
>> lucidity
>> in that one has to struggle from then on to remain lucid, almost as if
>> dealing with other people in a dream actually requires more energy, or
>> attention, or something
>
> theory, ok, maybe the loss of lucidity when beings are present is due
> to the fact that you have split a part of your own consciousness off?
### - that's certainly a curious idea... maybe, i just can't say for sure
>
>> i.e. strange things begin to happen as soon as other people appear on the
>> dreaming-scene, don't exactly know why yet, but it becomes like wading
>> through water whenever you try to see/deal with them... solution so far
>> has
>> been to just jump back into the empty dream for a recharge whenever i
>> felt i
>> was losing too much lucidity, gather my wits there, and then maybe try
>> again...
>
> like thick viscosity, or heavier gravity, what?
### - smile, it's hard to describe wading through a 'lucidity' that suddenly
becomes much harder to maintain - i.e. it suddenly takes a noticably
conscious effort not to fall-off into ordinary dreams which threaten to
flood in & take-over if you pay too much attention to the items/people in
the dream
(subsequently found myself sneaking around in these dreams on
several occasions avoiding people even though i could still see them hehe :)
slider
### - for some strange reason staring at the details of an image +
pretending to be very interested in those details, has the effect of slowing
down the duration of that image which otherwise starts to change & morph
into the next image after only a little while (which actually provides a
kind of choice in that it's possible to let some images go and to only
arrest others of your choosing, criteria for such a choice being as yet
unknown :)
"clave_scri...@spl.at" <clave_...@spl.at> wrote in message
news:1136607066....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
slider
### - seems to be a delay sometimes depending on the time of day
"clave_scri...@spl.at" <clave_...@spl.at> wrote in message
news:1136607703.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
>> so i don't know really, could be energy (has a nice ring to it hehe :) or
>> it
>> could be a lack of practice/experience (although i've had dozens of these
>> dreams by now) whatever it is it seems to equate with making more effort
>> within those people-dreams, which always coincides with strange + more
>> unusual things happening in them (the empty dreams are almost static by
>> comparison, nothing ever happens in them unless you personally initiate
>> it)
>
> what about other animate objects, such as animals, or machines,maybe
> it's just the fact that they are animate, where you have developed the
> ability to "arrest" and slow down a inanimate or static object, that
> may not work with moving objects, or interactivity
### - don't know + haven't tried that so far... (which i suppose would have
to be attempted from within a populated dream?(population being a kind of
2nd + deeper level to WILDs) - unless you mean 'zooming' things outside of
dreaming?
e.g. years ago (and i mean 'years') i was lying on the floor of this house
once with my eyes closed, not a single thought in my head about dreaming or
lucidity at that time etc, and it became like i was peeping ever so slightly
through 99% closed eyes (just a tiny chink of light was coming through) when
the light suddenly turned into a view of a house seen through several trees,
particularly the window of a house, which suddenly 'zoomed' into sharp focus
seemingly only a few feet from my face which immediately forced me to open
my eyes in an automatic response, where to my surprise i found myself
looking at this exact same house & window which was across the road via my
own living room window, plus it was exactly the same shot of the house &
trees only everything was much smaller/further away (the house was at least
70 meters away)
as a reaction i sat bolt upright (what the f...! :) - but other people there
& circumstances distracted me away from it and then i more or less forgot
about it
perhaps if WILDs is developed (or just the 'zooming' part of it) this could
well be applied to other things... our only problem is we don't know yet
what's worth zooming and what isn't hehehe... :)
MX
>
>### - for some strange reason staring at the details of an image +
>pretending to be very interested in those details, has the effect of slowing
>down the duration of that image which otherwise starts to change & morph
>into the next image after only a little while (which actually provides a
>kind of choice in that it's possible to let some images go and to only
>arrest others of your choosing, criteria for such a choice being as yet
>unknown :)
I noticed that emotions in general do aid a great deal to lucidity in
dreaming.
I once dreamed of this person, it was a low LD, and when I got angry
at him, lucidity went up 130% straight away.
YIIHHHHA!
lol
MX
>### - or maybe you're even quite talented in that direction (which could
>come in very handy if 'zooming' things applies to more than just sharp
>images & lucid dreams :)
Yes + hmm.
:)
But in dreaming practice it is a kindda "burden".
I notice that more...ummm..."foggy" persons have much easier path to
dreaming.
MX
>e.g. years ago (and i mean 'years') i was lying on the floor of this house
>once with my eyes closed, not a single thought in my head about dreaming or
>lucidity at that time etc, and it became like i was peeping ever so slightly
>through 99% closed eyes (just a tiny chink of light was coming through) when
>the light suddenly turned into a view of a house seen through several trees,
>particularly the window of a house, which suddenly 'zoomed' into sharp focus
>seemingly only a few feet from my face which immediately forced me to open
>my eyes in an automatic response, where to my surprise i found myself
>looking at this exact same house & window which was across the road via my
>own living room window, plus it was exactly the same shot of the house &
>trees only everything was much smaller/further away (the house was at least
>70 meters away)
Sounds like "gazing" tome.
It happens to me only in dreaming...
slider
"MX" <nom...@all.jp> wrote in message
news:96ivr19lmttcod236...@MaxXian.nntp.news...
### - LOL, i'm gonna try it next time... (suddenly slider is in-dreaming and
sees a dream-person walking nearby... ) - Oi you! - Stand still you
bastard!! :):)
slider
### - well this is what WILDs seems to be: a form of gazing that activates
the same dream-machine as lucid dreaming techniques only one is always wide
awake from the start (dreaming-awake?)
clave_scri...@spl.at
trouble sleeping
finally found myslef in a long dream this morning where i was a
superintendent of some building and moving job, it felt like a film set
preparing for location, but it wasn't, it was a dream location scene of
some sort
lots of people, equipment and trucks, all needing preparation and
supervision
clave_scri...@spl.at
clave_scri...@spl.at
> > inanimate object, and experiment for you maybe?
well i know you mentioned having to create trhe beings, or something of
that sort, after you became lucid, and prior to entering the dream you
zoomed into an object
so, actually just curious if you could zoom into anything once you are
in the dream?
> ### - said something about this elsewhere... where i presumed you
> meant 'outside' of dreaming?
> > like thick viscosity, or heavier gravity, what?
i've had experiences where my lucidity just dissapears, i don't even
have a chance to struggle to keep it
> ### - smile, it's hard to describe wading through a 'lucidity' that suddenly
> becomes much harder to maintain - i.e. it suddenly takes a noticably
> conscious effort not to fall-off into ordinary dreams which threaten to
> flood in & take-over if you pay too much attention to the items/people in
> the dream
other dreams seem to have a heavier gravity, like being a character in
the matrix, crashing through things without getting hurt and what not
> (subsequently found myself sneaking around in these dreams on
> several occasions avoiding people even though i could still see them hehe :)
amusing!
MX
>well i know you mentioned having to create trhe beings, or something of
>that sort, after you became lucid, and prior to entering the dream you
>zoomed into an object
Talking about creating dream objects:
how do you tell the difference between real objects (from day-to-day
reality, for example) and your dream-generated objects?
What do you do?
Slider, you?
>i've had experiences where my lucidity just dissapears, i don't even
>have a chance to struggle to keep it
It happened to me several times, yes. A wind of some sorts jus became
out of nowhere and blew everything away.
what was that, I don't know.
There is also this annoying feeling of something rising up my nose
when I enhance lucidity...
MX
LOL
La Berge found that out, you can read about this in one of his
books...
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
> attempted again a few times last night - all was black, no images,
> trouble sleeping
### - been there many times... just lying there waiting for something to
happen & hours go by lol, own solution was to try and meet the on-set of
images half-way...
e.g. experience so far suggests that the images don't start properly (don't
commence) until a slightly altered state of awareness is achieved, in which
case i now spend quite a lot of time (10-15 minutes) getting the physical
body completely relaxed until it feels/becomes like a dead-weight etc,
shortly after which there is a sensation of expanding, or of becoming
physically bigger/wider, starts to float... attention now turns to
image-screen instead + good/sharper images start appearing
>
> finally found myslef in a long dream this morning where i was a
> superintendent of some building and moving job, it felt like a film set
> preparing for location, but it wasn't, it was a dream location scene of
> some sort
>
> lots of people, equipment and trucks, all needing preparation and
> supervision
### - experienced a few like that myself... trying to WILD but missing the
mark & ending up in weird DILDs instead lol :)
shit happens :)
clave_scri...@spl.at
me wonder for a second
clave_scri...@spl.at
exist in the early image stage, then yes, at a 2nd deeper level (or
gate)
the 2nd one seems like an ob projection to me, many projectors claim to
have had similar experiences, where they see the environment they're in
but with their eyes closed
clave_scri...@spl.at
how about the general underlying tone of a person, like if one tended
to be depressive, cynical, upbeat, charismatic - does that have an
immediate effect in your opinion on one's ability to induce lucid
dreams?
clave_scri...@spl.at
clave_scri...@spl.at
i don't consciously crfeate dream objects, i just occasionally get
lucid in a dream, and either losr it in the dream, or wake up after a
period
teh last major one i had i noticed an anomaly, something that seemed
unusual against my perception of everyday reality, and it was stacked,
so there were a few or more simultaneous anomalies to put it more
clearly
ever notice that?
clave_scri...@spl.at
clave_scri...@spl.at
clave_scri...@spl.at
slider
clave_scripts wrote
>> ### - smile, it's hard to describe wading through a 'lucidity' that
>> suddenly
>> becomes much harder to maintain - i.e. it suddenly takes a noticably
>> conscious effort not to fall-off into ordinary dreams which threaten to
>> flood in & take-over if you pay too much attention to the items/people in
>> the dream
>
> other dreams seem to have a heavier gravity, like being a character in
> the matrix, crashing through things without getting hurt and what not
### - it's hard to describe, like if it was possible to sweat in a dream
then i was literally dripping wet by the time i escaped back to the empty
room (was almost panting etc) whereas the empty dreams are easy to maintain
by comparison (e.g. only effort required is to not be too shocked at being
in a dream-state etc)
>
>> (subsequently found myself sneaking around in these dreams on
>> several occasions avoiding people even though i could still see them hehe
>> :)
>
> amusing!
### - i'm really struggling with these 'populated' dreams... keeping away
from the people in them definitely helps, but still everything crawls and
morphs if you stare at anything for too long, seem to spend all my time in
those states just keeping low + struggling not to be carried-off into active
participation in some crazy dream-scenario where it's hard even to remember
who you are...
plus if you like amusing, then try this one for size hahaha :)
e.g. made the mistake one-time early-on of talking to a pretty girl in one
of these dreams, there was something about her that kinda stood-out from the
rest, she somehow seemed more solid, more colourful, than the other people
there... let my guard down i suppose... and because the next thing i know it
feels like hours later, with the distinct sensation of having maybe been
many places and having done many things and i'm tired now, my memory returns
to me like a fog lifting whereon i suddenly realise i'm actually shagging
this woman across a chair (or under it, or around it or something) in a
position i didn't even know 'existed' to be making love in hahaha!
(literally: what the f...! is going on!!:)
the jolt of which was enough to allow me to 'disentangle' myself from this
woman & chair (lol:) and then to jump back to the empty room-dream thinking;
Jesus Christ! what happened there!! (really laughing :)
i might also mention that i'm much more careful now hehehehehe... :)
slider
"MX" wrote...
>>### - LOL, i'm gonna try it next time... (suddenly slider is in-dreaming
>>and
>>sees a dream-person walking nearby... ) - Oi you! - Stand still you
>>bastard!! :):)
>
> LOL
>
> La Berge found that out, you can read about this in one of his
> books...
### - know which one offhand? (unfortunately jeremy kinda put me off reading
la berge with his insistence on using him to prove his own wacky ideas about
science being better than Art :)
slider
"MX" wrote...
> Talking about creating dream objects:
> how do you tell the difference between real objects (from day-to-day
> reality, for example) and your dream-generated objects?
> What do you do?
>
> Slider, you?
### - it's only ever happened once so far, i'd been trying to lucid dream
for ages (years actually) and i just thought that one night i'd succeeded
when suddenly, just after going to bed, i found myself in a dream room and
didn't know what to do with myself there...
anyway, i looked around a bit, decided i was definitely dreaming, and
immediately set to work trying not to get booted-out of it... go out for a
walk i thought...to which effect i tried to dress myself, only my legs
wouldn't go into my jeans, huh? legs seemed to get stuck at the opening,
what the? - pushed legs harder and was suddenly rewarded with the sensation
that i was trying to dress my sleeping body 'through' the eiderdown (yikes!
+ sudden visions of my sleeping body walking around on the streets without
me, lol) - decided then against going out hehehe
okay so i'm in a dream... let's look around instead... everything seemed so
real, almost normal, so much so that i wanted then to do something unusual
that could only be done in a dream, idea came to mind to see if i could
create something in the dream, a plain drinking glass... stared at my hand
trying to visualise it, just a plain old glass tumbler, i'm holding a glass
in my hand etc, to my surprise the ghostly image of one began to form,
greatly encouraged i stared harder, visualised in more detail, image cleared
up a bit but was still ghostly, not solid enough, not yet an independent
item, and that was what i wanted, a real + independent object... nothing
happened
wondered what to do... something intuitive suggested something was missing
from it, how about pouring emotional feeling into the damn thing, something
like the sensation of falling, a feeling that comes from your groin/stomach
area... but i must have really over-done it because as soon as i let-go of
an almighty 'whoooosh' of feeling towards it, this faint image of a glass in
my hand suddenly solidified + expanded to 4 or 5 times it's former size, and
as i went falling backwards, it went flying out of my hand to stand in the
corner of this room becoming a 2 or 3-foot misshapen + twisted/distorted
parody of a drinking-glass!
of course i was totally shocked, but delighted... and was just about
half-way across the room to examine my handiwork, when a kind of wind blew
me right out of there and back into waking up in bed (Doh!! :) - haven't
tried again since, don't know why :)
> There is also this annoying feeling of something rising up my nose
> when I enhance lucidity...
### - cocaine detox required? (jus' kidding ;-)
MX
>### - know which one offhand? (unfortunately jeremy kinda put me off reading
>la berge with his insistence on using him to prove his own wacky ideas about
>science being better than Art :)
Yep:
EXPLORING THE WORLD OF LUCID DREAMING
MX
>> There is also this annoying feeling of something rising up my nose
>> when I enhance lucidity...
>
>### - cocaine detox required? (jus' kidding ;-)
LOL
Yeah, I should stay only on meds in the first place.
<g>
slider
"MX" wrote...
>>### - know which one offhand? (unfortunately jeremy kinda put me off
>>reading
>>la berge with his insistence on using him to prove his own wacky ideas
>>about
>>science being better than Art :)
>
> Yep:
> EXPLORING THE WORLD OF LUCID DREAMING
### - cheers... will-co :)
rbb
slider wrote:
> ### - seems to be a delay sometimes depending on the time of day
no delay...
days later several of my posts still nada...
oh well , just conversation anyhow...
clave_scri...@spl.at
see you in the electrical byways until we reach our destination
MX
>> Yep:
>> EXPLORING THE WORLD OF LUCID DREAMING
>
>### - cheers... will-co :)
IMHO, this particular book is worth spending time on.
clave_scri...@spl.at
again
i've got to stretch out that fine gap between clicking out and
remaining awake, at the liminal stage, it seems like such a small area,
but it's a whole universe waiting to be pried open
not even a memorable dream this time either
anybody else?
slider wrote:
> clave_scripts wrote...
>
> > well ramiga refers of the five condiitons anchoring the art of dreaming
> > -
> >
> > ok, i'm up for it, let's see if any others hop on
>
> ### - The 'how' of: Waking-Induced Lucid Dreaming...
>
> The WILD form of lucid dreaming is actually vastly easier than the more
> usual lucid dreaming that its practitioners are used to, and which perforce
> requires a person to first fall-asleep before entering into the dreaming
> state, a nearly impossible thing to achieve.
>
> WILD, on the other hand, is much easier to attain in that it requires
> little discipline by comparison and is achieved in the moments preceding
> sleep proper by deliberately becoming aware of subtle changes in awareness
> just before falling asleep that are normally ignored.
>
> e.g. after lying down and getting oneself comfortable, several slow
> exhalations coupled with the visualisation of all tension leaving the body
> results in a very relaxed state (i.e. the aim here is to attain the bodily
> sensation that one has become a dead-weight in that if someone were to
> gently lift one of your limbs and let go again then it would just flop/fall
> back to where it was without any muscular volition on your part)
>
> it's important at this stage not to move at all, which if persisted with,
> results in a rather strange feeling of physical expansion and/or floating, a
> feeling which is immediately dispelled if the body moves or changes
> position.
>
> look + wait for this floaty-feeling... and when it occurs use it as a signal
> to begin the next stage which consists of now ignoring any strange
> sensations in-favour of watching for some visual effects that will appear
> shortly
>
> e.g. at first it might just be lights and/or blobs of colour floating about
> behind one's closed eyes, but this is quickly followed by vague images and
> half-pictures... do nothing at this stage, just watch them changing/shifting
> etc
>
> after a while a more-clear image will arise, then another... again at this
> stage do nothing but observe them, let them come, let them go, and because
> at one point a really sharp image of something will appear (sometimes
> shockingly so) then another... which is the signal to move-on to the next
> stage
>
> i.e. as soon as these much clearer images of places & things start to arise,
> the thing to do now is to stare hard at any one of them, deliberately
> focusing in on the detail of it, the initial effect of which is to slow the
> image down in the sense that these types of images tend to persist for
> longer if handled in this way, if the image fades (or escapes) just do it
> again to the next one, and so on until... one has the feeling of 'arresting'
> them...
>
> without warning you will suddenly be powerfully pulled right into one of
> these images in a 'zooming' fashion, only to then find yourself walking
> around in a perfectly lucid dream & dreaming state, the initial jolt of
> which has had me on many occasions personally bouncing back & forth between
> dreaming & waking several times until something inside kinda lets go, from
> which point on it then becomes totally a matter of volition as to which
> state of being (either waking or dreaming) one wishes to be in/experience...
>
> i.e. unless you have a talent for it forget normal lucid dreaming, and
> because WILD's are incredibly easy, (it took me 15 years of trying (and
> failing) to lucid dream the usual way only to stumble across WILD while
> trying)
>
> and i mean Maaaaan... it really 'is' WILD! (lol, so apt :)
>
> (would also love to hear from anyone else experiencing this particular form
> of lucid dreaming)
>
> from slider...
ThreeWolves
Smart money would say yeah no reply here boss.OTH, dumb money sez you'll get a "heady" (ego-based)shot at your booty. Never bend over in Shantytown.Kick your keys to Ixtlan and then pick them up. :)You see, I am at the moment bringing a slow and agonizing death to my Karmic ego. So I figure it has the right to flair up here and there with it's last gasps for air. HeHe Don't know how much success I am havin, as I don't quite know what it is like to be with out one. So I got nothin to compare it to. Sort of like writing something that sounds intelligent at the time, then reading it a week later and trying to figure out which drugs I was on. LOL.
Ms. Minden
ThreeWolves wrote:
> You see, I am at the moment bringing a slow and agonizing death to
> my Karmic ego.
Why bother? Be patient. Life will kick the crap out of you sooner or
later and kill your ego dead, free of charge. All you have to do is
wait. Sooner or later, your number comes up.
> So I figure it has the right to flair up here and
> there with it's last gasps for air. HeHe Don't know how much success
> I am havin, as I don't quite know what it is like to be with out
> one.
I believe the word you're looking for is ... dead.
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
> tried WILD last night and didn't make it to the images, clicked out
> again
>
> i've got to stretch out that fine gap between clicking out and
> remaining awake, at the liminal stage, it seems like such a small area,
> but it's a whole universe waiting to be pried open
>
> not even a memorable dream this time either
>
> anybody else?
### - for some reason trying to WILD seems to have this effect, i mean i've
lost 'count' now of the sheer number of times that one moment i'm lying
there very patiently waiting to WILD, and the next it's time to get up! lol
(what the?!?! Doh!, wasn't even any ordinary dreams! :)
so maybe it's time-travel hahaha :)
clave_scri...@spl.at
i don't think the ego can actually be killed, it's suppossed to be
there, the problem is when we allow it to take over the functions of
the conscious mind, but i inderstand the idea the ego being rigid, and
interferng, thus seen as something bad that we want to dispense with
clave_scri...@spl.at
it happens the same many times when i'm atempting to consciously
project, same spot, same feeling . . . etc.
any ideas on how to maintain wakefulness at the liminal stage? how do
you do it? i think once i get this i can convert that skill into a
variety of experiences
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
> seriously =)
>
> it happens the same many times when i'm atempting to consciously
> project, same spot, same feeling . . . etc.
>
> any ideas on how to maintain wakefulness at the liminal stage? how do
> you do it? i think once i get this i can convert that skill into a
> variety of experiences
### - i know 'exactly' what you're talking about, and as you might imagine;
i've looked at this and it's really very strange what's coming out of it
after only a few months research
e.g. i'm convinced now that it's not actually a matter of maintaining
wakefulness (because one never actually falls asleep) so much as once you're
in an altered state; that of not allowing oneself to be carried-off into
normal (or even unusual, dreamless) sleep by the wrong things (but which of
course are the 'right' things if one desires just ordinary sleep & dreams,
although for the life of me i don't really know why anyone would ever want
that:)
what am i saying lol, i'm saying that i think now that what we 'call'
falling asleep isn't the complete story/full-picture of what's actually
occurring - e.g. i'm beginning to think that we've actually perfected a move
into an altered state of awareness (what we call normal sleep) albeit
totally unconsciously, and for a very strange purpose
in other words: we've all learned (without ever thinking about it) how to
manipulate our awareness in such a way so as to automatically enter into a
particular aspect of awareness, or a particular place if you prefer, a
somewhat benign state of unconsciousness (sleep) but coincidently using the
very same mechanism one has to later 'consciously' access in order to lucid
dream, only for now we just use it for simply recharging our batteries which
perforce become depleted during the day maintaining that particular
perception of the world
but why would anyone 'do' that i wondered... especially when 'lucid'
dreaming is at-least an equal option right at the point of falling asleep,
why did we go 'that' way with it? does it perhaps require more energy (or
whatever) to lucid dream, or are having ordinary dreams just the default?
(i've been scratching my head quite a bit over it heh...)
and then it dawned on me: we do it that way because of its results... and
because to be having 'lucid' dreams would screw with one's otherwise total
complacency during the day about who & what we really are, something we
perhaps have no wish to review or it would fuck everything up for us in the
daily world where one would become sorta' forced to begin to question the
nature of reality instead of merely participating in it, whereas 'without'
any lucid dreams to rock the boat so to speak, we can then be as complacent
as we like about the nature of our daily reality and just get-on with it,
exclusively & obsessively...
so why did we opt for ordinary non-lucid dreams? (i'll try to be generous
heh:) imho basically because it was the simplest monkey-answer that allowed
us to limit our conscious activities to during the waking awareness
time-period, we being basically just too dumb for anything more... (or more
horribly/less generously (grin:) perhaps we knew all about it, but then came
a time when lucid dreaming was outlawed for some reason (but then i'd hate
to think we did it 'deliberately' for example, what a bunch of plonkers if
we did! lol we deliberately marooned ourselves??? OMG "Lord of the flies"
here we come! :)
smile, so anyway, how to get-past that point of just falling off into
unconscious sleep? well so far it seems to be a matter of selecting the
right (and/or viable) images to zoom into/allow oneself to be pulled-into
(not sure which sometimes:) - i mean, after a few bounces back & forth
(something that always seems to happen to me whenever it kicks-off) only
'then' does it become possible for me to deliberately zoom around, but for
the first one it's more like at some point i suddenly become engrossed in
the image i'm viewing, which kinda jumps at me, lunges towards me, sometimes
in little hops (near/far, near/far etc) but at other times in much bigger
leaps until it suddenly feels like i'm seeing through my closed eyelids at
an illuminated room or scene, which if you're not careful can provoke a kind
of instinctual reaction to pop-open your eyes just to make sure they're
still closed (Double-Doh!! :)
withstand the shock involved though, and the resulting image becomes so
clear and so real that you're suddenly right in it, you can literally just
step right into it at that point (although another shock always awaits me
when i do: the bloody bouncers arrive :)
e.g. (and this is a very 'subjective' account you understand heh:) yes, i'm
in there! and then whammy! i'm suddenly right out again & back in bed, Doh!
now where's that goddamn image again? ah there it is... Zooooooooom right
into it! - body-shock yikes!! = step-back whammy! what the... Zoooooooom!
standing in there again but being too intellectually-amazed/turned-on gets
step-back whammy! (oh for the love of! :) Zooooom! now slider just don't
think/feel too-much, look around instead, force attention 'away' from self
onto dream objects... better result... profound realisation arrives (bodily
realisation): action better than intellect for lucid dreaming = no more
flips now unless desired, silent understanding has arrived... very easy to
L-dream or wake up from that point, sense of there's lots more, haven't yet
explored/probed all the possibilities, it's a totally different world :)
plus just the usual lucid dream techniques after that (for me usually =
flying around, definitely removes all last traces of thoughts, sometimes
can't be bothered to do/remember anything else hehehe, another barrier to
overcome/learn to resist i suppose = learning/pretending to care when ya
suddenly don't give a damn lol :)
hope this helps...
clave_scri...@spl.at
when you speak of body shock, is that the rubbery bouncy feeling in the
torso affair?
i tried again today and had some images, but woke up awhile later on
the other side of them
still i'm making progress, yesterday i wasn't trying to do anything,
just lying down with my eyes closed, and noticed i was aware but
apparently observing all kinds of images, they weren't crystal clear
mind you, and i could kind of go back and forth, like letting my
observation continue, instead of thinking about my observation, which
interrupted it, and so on
ramiga
dreams you have experienced from your childhood are all messages of
where you were in phylogenetic memory and where you are going.
Today, you are a composite of memories from ADAM and EVE to the
present. As you learn to remember and write down your dreams, analyze
your dreams and visions, you will learn yourself from the level of your
Soul which houses all memories of your genetic experience.
Your Soul is teaching you.
As the Global Pentecost proceeds into its completion, more of yourself
will be revealed to you. Love the saint in you and forgive the devil in
you and your Soul will shed mercy on you. Love the saint in your dreams
and visions and forgive the devil in your thoughts and feelings and
your Soul will shed mercy on you.
slider
clave_scripts wrote...
> when you speak of body shock, is that the rubbery bouncy
> feeling in the torso affair?
### - 2 different items there... rubbery feeling you describe sounds more
like the overall bodily-sensation resulting from relaxation practice
'before' attempting to WILD (very hard to actually describe but i've called
this a floating/expanded feeling before, no WILDs so far without it) +
rubbery (and/or liquid) doesn't quite describe it properly but it's a
definite sensation i've encountered every time...
the body-shock feeling being more like the sensation of suddenly being
slapped without warning, a kind of 'yelp' factor is involved, just as if
someone were to creep up behind ya and suddenly yelled in your ear to
startle you/make you jump hehehe, a kind of bodily 'yikes!' that has nothing
to do with the intellect :)
> still i'm making progress, yesterday i wasn't trying to do anything,
> just lying down with my eyes closed, and noticed i was aware but
> apparently observing all kinds of images, they weren't crystal clear
> mind you, and i could kind of go back and forth, like letting my
> observation continue, instead of thinking about my observation, which
> interrupted it, and so on
### - sounds like the start of it anyway, plus sounds exactly like the way i
originally bumped into WILDs... i.e. just make sure your body is as-relaxed
as possible (i.e. it's worth spending a little time on accomplishing this
first) + just keeping looking at these initial images in a sort of
disinterested way (yeah-yeah, images etc, yeah...) - just stay awake waiting
until the 'quality' of the images changes all by itself, at some point a
shockingly clear one will appear and maybe startle you into opening your
eyes (first of the body-shocks heh:)
ThreeWolves
"clave_scri...@spl.at" <clave_...@spl.at> wrote in message
news:1137765624.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
The ego remains, however I do believe it can be transformed from a Karmic
Ego wich is trapped in pain and suffering to a Dharmic Ego which is more of
a commander voice that wants to go for the more instead of allways
sabatauging the more as the Karmic Ego does. One must die to birth the
other. Yet thier still is an Ego Present.
>
clave_scri...@spl.at
i've been noticing that the ego is like the lens of the conscious mind,
it is our focusing agent in physical reality, where the conscious mind
reaches inward as well, the ego is mainly faced outward, so there's the
problem (maybe like karmic ego in a way), where we give over the
conscious mind, or filter it out, to the ego
rbb
ramiga wrote:
> Please share.
Shareware?
ramiga
uses dreams to awaken a so-called foggy person. As we learn to use more
of our brain, the need to interpret data through dreams is reduced as
we constantly calculate our current conditions and understandings in
the sense of an awakened conscience.
peace, mmgr
http://www.marmsweb.com/
ramiga
draw a thought to the center of consciousness, that thought begins to
expand and enlarge a concept or precept of your existence.
Don Juan was able to draw to a center to such a degree that he could
manifest self as an omniform being, or shape-shifter. He apparently
found a point by which all aspects of self assembled into a specific
design or desire.
peace, mmgr
ramiga
like leads to like, or what goes around comes around. Ego has a
tendency to use conscience to keep one on the proper path or to break
the rules. When one is bound, one wants to break free. Ego helps. If
ego helps too much, one finds more bindings and desperate desires for
liberty. That is karma opposing ego.
peace, mmgr
ramiga
leading the mind into a hypnagogic state.
peace, mmgr
ramiga
Nice work, keep practicing. I also like the way you can approach an NDE
and remain in conscious control of your dream mind.
peace, mmgr
ramiga
awake state. You relax as much as possible with feet flat on the floor
and hands folded in lap. You give your mind a suggestion to either take
you into a clairvoyant state to see what's going on in real time some
place that you designate or to provide an answer to a question, no
matter how difficult it is.
Then you meditate on something completely different, knowing that at
the end of the meditation or chanting, you will receive your answer or
experience. Then, let it happen for you as you desire. Do not go to
sleep. One hour is the general time length required to let the mind
reveal your quest.
peace, mmgr
ramiga
think Castaneda was getting into this when in a wld, he saw the widow
in black. When he returned to normal consciousness, he saw her coming
down the road.
peace, mmgr
ramiga
events in other cities. I used newspapers when I lived in Seattle. I
got up early one morning and felt/heard an Earthquake in the East. I
went to the library and got a newspaper and there had been an
Earthquake in Boston. Not having ever been to Boston, I could not name
the city. Also, I was probably still a little sleepy/foggy.
peace, mmgr
clave_scri...@spl.at
> like the overall bodily-sensation resulting from relaxation practice
> 'before' attempting to WILD (very hard to actually describe but i've called
> this a floating/expanded feeling before, no WILDs so far without it) +
> rubbery (and/or liquid) doesn't quite describe it properly but it's a
> definite sensation i've encountered every time...
>
waking form an experience, and as far as i'm concerned i'm noticing it
my astral body syncronizing with my physical
it's an odd sensation, so i associate it w/ projections - definitely
rubbery and jiggly
> the body-shock feeling being more like the sensation of suddenly being
> slapped without warning, a kind of 'yelp' factor is involved, just as if
> someone were to creep up behind ya and suddenly yelled in your ear to
> startle you/make you jump hehehe, a kind of bodily 'yikes!' that has nothing
> to do with the intellect :)
the first few times i had this it was shocking, that's why i thought of
it with the rubbery sensation, i havn;t had the other "yelp" factor,
but sometiomes notice the kinesthetic disjunction, and my body, or
limbs will jerk
> ### - sounds like the start of it anyway, plus sounds exactly like the way i
> originally bumped into WILDs... i.e. just make sure your body is as-relaxed
> as possible (i.e. it's worth spending a little time on accomplishing this
> first) + just keeping looking at these initial images in a sort of
> disinterested way (yeah-yeah, images etc, yeah...) - just stay awake waiting
> until the 'quality' of the images changes all by itself, at some point a
> shockingly clear one will appear and maybe startle you into opening your
> eyes (first of the body-shocks heh:)
ok, concentrarte on the body, really relax, i have had the expereince
of rushing it, so that is great advice to focus on, very well then
clave_scri...@spl.at
collective unconscious
not sure about that last paragraph, but i'll take it as a blessing then
clave_scri...@spl.at
clave_scri...@spl.at
clave_scri...@spl.at
clarivoyance
sorry, i can't see the thread in gg too well, what are you respondng
to, my question about what is a "gazing tome"
Azure
Kind of like the Eye of the Cyclopes or the Wadjet.
Ever look in the mirror at the Cyclopes?
Jack Fate
Whats your mission.
Are you a rama drone?
Or just a chatty cyberrnaut.
Iraq is mission accomplished.
Syria dies next then iran korea cuba china.
Power is The Infinite.
This so called universe grade-aaa tech.
Some can't deal with it some hit tthe jack pot
Jacque Phaeton aka Jack
ThreeWolves
"ramiga" <gnos...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1138277625....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I suppose that would have to depend on one's understanding on how Karma
works. I am about to learn a new system called Keylontic Science. I emegin
it will have even another deffinition. I figure the only thing that matters
is does your definition work with your system you have made for yourself.
For me the zero to nine law talkes about the law of energy law, weather
Karma is simply lessons we chose to learn before we even got here. Lessons
written in a book so to speak. Dharma is blank pages where the field is
open. So one ego works for one way of existing, the other ego works for the
other way of existing. I do believe the budhists call it samsara, although I
don't believe I have totally come out of suffering yet. The pages may be
blank, but I still have a lot of my old "habits".
ThreeWolves
> Hyperempiria is an example of wld.
If one is looking at a wall and it turns into a tv screen, or one can sit in
a dimly lit room, turn it black, then see as if in a dream, is that a wld.
>
> peace, mmgr
>
slider
"ramiga" wrote...
### - it's quite interesting... plus ya know, it's been haunting me
somewhat, something jeremy (of all people:) said a while back in his cynical
way, a remark (one of the few 'intelligent' remarks he's made i might add)
when i first described the experience... about how it (the waking dream
experience) sounded to him more like some form of intense visualisation?
which i didn't want to hear at the time because something in me just 'knew'
it was lucid dreaming albeit with a slight twist...
only these days i've come to the conclusion that WILD's are 'in-deed' the
result of an intense form of visualisation, strangely one that also accesses
the same mechanism of the more usual dreaming-induced lucid dreams
people are more familiar with, indeed the very same mechanism that also
produces the experience of having ordinary non-lucid dreams when accessed
unconsciously and/or by some kind of routine accident (what we call 'falling
asleep coz' we're tired lol :)
the 'direct' encounter with such a reality-modelling mechanism being rather
strange in that the repeated experience/encounter eventually kinda forces
one to feel somewhat doubtful/questioning about the nature of daily reality,
which is undoubtedly accessed via the very same mechanism that produces
3-dimensional dreams, lucid or otherwise...
my question to the universe being: IS it (this lucid dreaming, wild or
otherwise) an ability, or is it just an accident of nature that was never
meant to be accessed except unconsciously for the purposes of resting - and
if not an accident, then why do we have this ability to create + project
into different non-physical realities, what can it be used for + could this
ability be the basis of all the tales people have heard in the past about
different worlds & stuff etc...
plus if we 'have' that ability, then what is it's full
extent/range/intelligent uses of etc... plus what else is there that we
didn't know about :)