news:20000706195023.12751.00000512@nso-fe.aol.com...

Here's a tip for you all...................DON'T EAT YELLOW SNOW.

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Short of getting shot down in flames here for speaking my mind!!!.

We have saved for nearly 2 years to enjoy our holiday to WDW, we have a
disabled child, and a teenager now forgive me if im wrong, ive paid alot of
money just for a room for 2 weeks,if i think the service we get warrants a
tip then i will tip, if not i wont.I will always pass the time of day with
any member of staff, be pleasant, treat them how i would expect to be
treated, but i feel this whole buissness on tipping is getting out of
hand!!.
Surely everybody that uses hotels/motels etc is differant, you have people
with lots of money who probaly tip because they can, where as, you would
probaly get a lovely family who would love to tip something but are unable
to, lets face it here, other people are on small wages and dont get tipped
at all.Surely it is the memory of WDW that brings these people back year
after year not the service/tipping procedure, after all if it wasnt for
people like us they wouldnt have a job at all,!!!!.
Okay im preparing myself to get shot now!!!!

Easy for you to say that. You forget servers depend on their
tips as their income. However, saving a buck is more important
to you, then actually giving to somebody who earned it.

Tipping is at least 10%-15%. If you've got more than 6 people,
most restaurants automatically add in a gratuity of 15%. This is
NON NEGOTIABLE.  Don't let a cheapskate give you the wrong
impression. If you can not afford a 15% tip for good service,
then you shouldn't be eating at a sit-down restaurant. Go to
McDonalds or Burger King instead. It's as simple as that.

If only you worked as a server "Modkey Man"..boy would your
cheap mind change ever so quickly!

-----------------------------------------------------------

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In article <8kfmuq$eb...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, "sibe"

Don't worry...tipping is not and should not be the main worry about
going to WDW...what does count is you enjoying your time there.

Some may say that tipping is required and that you must tip 25%
for dinner.  Please, don't let these people take the fun out of your
WDW adventure.  Tip when the dinner service is GOOD and tip
what YOU feel is right (5% to 10% depending) and according to
your budget...it is as simple as that.  Remember, the main point
of going to WDW is NOT to tip, but to have FUN!
simple as that

In article <20000712005410.02338.00002...@nso-cj.aol.com>, modkey...@aol.com

Wrong.  If you can't afford to tip appropriately, you shouldn't be dining in
sit-down restaurants.  Take the food to go or eat elsewhere.  I rarely tip 25%,
but 15-20% is standard for good service.

Denise
Denise's Webhome
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ModKeyMan,
While I don't agree with the amount you tip I agree completely that those
who are pushing tipping as a requirement and not the option of the consumer
are completely wrong.
As to those who say that it is required because IRS assumes a certian amount
of tips as taxible income.  Baloney.  If the person is willing to daily
document the amount of their tips and can prove they recieved less that the
% assumed by IRS they will have no problem.
Tipping is entirely at the option of the consumer.  When it is required it
becomes a service charge not a tip.  Then you have to decide if you care to
continue as a customer at that particular establishment.

In article <20000712130529.02970.00002...@nso-cf.aol.com>,

WOW another Tip-Nazi!  To hell with you and your attitude...

My point was for them not to listen to little tin-gods like you and worry.
But to go and have fun at WDW and tip what THEY think is right...not
what some self-appointed Hitler of tipping says.

And as far as this argument...these will be my last responses.
Hurl more insults, as that is what you seem best at doing...I'm
moving on.  If you want to tell others that tipping is REQUIRED
and not optional or that they MUST tip 20% or more, those are
YOUR LIES and is your problem.

In article <14fafb1c.0af4d...@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com>, Langsta2

I did for about three years....

In article <14fafb1c.0af4d...@usw-ex0106-047.remarq.com>, Langsta2

Next time someone tells you that you must tip 15%
 to 25%...calculate the money they get.

The average number of tables covered by a server is
between 5 to 8, the average table turnover rate is between
1 to 1.5 and the average number of people per table is
between 2.3 to 3.7 (depending on meal period).  Take
these factors as they apply to the restaurant you are talking
about, multiply them by the price of the meal plus drinks.
Then multiply that by the tip percentage you are being told
that you must give, and add that to the minimum wage rate
as set by your State law (not by Federal law which is lower).
The result is the average hourly pay the server gets.  For
example, last night my wife and I ate at Standfords.  Our
waiter was serving 6 tables but only 4 being used, all having
two people at them and we were there one hour and 15
minutes.  Based the dictates of Tipping God Brian, the tip
should be 25%.  Ready...4 tables x 2 people x $32.92 meal
& drink price, with 1.5 table turnover rate x 25% tip + $5.15
per hour Washington State minimum wage rate (your state
nat vary) = $49.14 hour pay!

Yes, those poor underpaid people....

On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:34:30 -0400, "Lisa" <poohb...@smindspring.com>
wrote:

Are you sure you really agree with him Lisa?  No one has suggested
that everyone must always tip 15% minimum, no matter what.  I've said
over-and-over again in this discussion:

     15% for good service; 20% for excellent service;
     25% for superlative service; 5%-10% for mediocre
     service; 0% for bad service.

Is that what you're disagreeing with Lisa?  (Just to be clear.)  

On the other hand, the other side of this debate has advocated that it
is perfectly acceptable to patronize a restaurant, fully aware of the
customs of the country regarding this matter, and to simply ignore
them; tipping 5% for good service, for example (which you've already
indicated you disagree with) or, worst of all, tipping based on your
own financial comfort, rather than based on the quality of the
service.  I just don't see many people climbing onto that ethical
band-wagon.

So please don't be distracted by Modkeyman's mis-characterization of
the two sides to this issue.

--
Brian Charles Kohn (bicker®)
"We honor reality, and keep our minds open to the evidence of
the senses and of science's unending quest for deeper
understanding. These are our best means of coming to know the
Universe, and on them we base our aesthetic and religious
feelings about reality."  - Pantheist Credo
Opinions Galore: http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/bicker

Am 13 Jul 2000 02:28:09 GMT, schrieb modkey...@aol.com (ModkeyMan):

Nice arguement. Do you think before you type? Sorry, but I dont´t like
the way you abuse these terms for YOUR attitude.

Gunyla

To make it perfectly clear.  TIPS ARE AT THE DISCRETION OF THE PATRON.  IT
IS NOT A REQUIREMENT TO TIP.  While I do generally tip and actually tip
rather well I do it only because I want to.  And I will not tip for mediocre
service.  They can't do the work then the don't deserve the tip.  Wait staff
have chosen a position where the pay is substandard,  the know it going in
and are well aware that tips are part of what people then to do, it is not
required of the consumer.  They know that they will need to work for the
tips and won't always get one.  They accept that.  If they didn't they
wouldn't find a different job.  I know both my girls did.  They started as
wait staff and didn't care for it and got other jobs.

news:397263b1.113966965@bicker.news...

No one said whether I could swing a tip.  It is my decision as to whether I
want to or not and how much.  And believe me there are times when I refuse
to give a tip.  It usually boils down to the servers attitude.   For
example, my daughter ordered a grilled cheese sandwich no tomato at Dennys.
She is allergic to tomato.  She was brought a grilled cheese with tomato.
We sent it back.  Server went to the counter area and removed the tomato and
brought it back.  We saw this.  Tried to send it back.  Server refused.  I
went to the manager and told him the problem and that we wanted the sandwich
replaced not the tomato just removed.  He personally went back and brought
the new sandwich to us.  NO TIP.  NO WAY.
Another example.  I ordered diet coke as I am diabetic.  Server brought me
regular.  I tested it and sent it back.  Server was very apologetic.
Returned with diet but again it was wrong.  Again very apologetic and  asked
if she could replace it with something like iced tea as there seemed to be a
problem with the machine.  SHE GOT HER TIP.  Not her fault.  It turned out
that when they last changed syrup boxes someone hooked up a regular box the
diet line.
Third example;  We went to our regular Dennys and were seated.  Server comes
up and takes my order but refuses to take that of my daughter. (He came from
another Dennys and didn't like her from there).  I called manager over and
complained.  He was told to take her order.  Took it.  My order came but
hers did not.  Waited and it still did not come.  Asked another server to
check.  It had been sitting in the window for 20 minutes.   Server assigned
never came back to our table until it was time for the check.  Walks up,
drops the check on table and snootily walked away.  NO TIP.  Don't mess with
my kids and expect a tip.
There is no law that says one must give a tip.  And the servers know darn
well when they are hired that a tip is not their given right.

news:20000713205915.02796.00002443@nso-ci.aol.com...

Your calculations are EXTREMELY off. It appears you failed math
in school. Here's what it should be for this high scale
restaurant (you aren't going to find many places whose meal
price is $32.92 per person): 4 tables x 2 people x $32.92 meal
and drink price x 15% tip (your exageration of 25% is wrong,
that's only for VERY excellent service in rare occasions, 15% is
the norm) with a table turnover rate of an hour and a half+
$2.57 Minimum wage (you obviously did not work at a restaurant
as a waiter like you said, as you would know that waiters only
get paid 1/2 the minimum wage). The total comes out to be $28.91
an hour, minus $10 which they give to the bus boys as their fair
share of the combined tips (servers don't get the full tip that
you give them, it's shared with the bussing staff), and the
total comes to $18.91 an hour, take away taxes and it comes down
to about $13-$14 an hour. Since most waiters/waitresses are part
time only, they don't work consistantly every day, and probably
on the average of about 22 hours a week. So that's $286 a week,
and only $14,872 a year. That's not a lot by any means.
Especially for somebody trying to pay for school, their house,
their car payments, and everyday necessities like food..etc.
However, this is not at any normal sitdown restaurant. That
example was at an upscale restaurant. For a normal restaurant,
lets' say somebody busses 6 tables, each with three people.
Average meal is $10. Average Table turn over rate is once every
hour and a half. Now let's the do the math: 6 tables x 3 people
x $10 a meal x 15 percent tip with the 1.5 per hour table
turnover rate. That equals $18, plus $2.57 wage rate makes it
$20.57. Take out $6 for the bussing staff; and that equals $14.
Then, subtract taxes, and it comes out to roughly $10. $10 times
twenty two hours a week, equals $220. Making that a yearly total
of only $11,440. By any means, that is not a lot. There goes
your theory that servers make a ton of money. You might want to
go back to school to learn how to do these simple math
equations.

You are exactly right. These people aren't earning that much at
all! Funny how your sarcastic comments turn out to be true once
you do the CORRECT math.

-----------------------------------------------------------

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Not trying to get into an argument over tipping (leave the da*n15% unless
they screwed up- you look so cheap).
However, if your calculations are correct- and they look right to me- we are
looking at a full time waiter making $22,880 to $29,744.
I went to school for 5 years.  Have three years experience and make in
between those figures.  And that is before taxes, your calculations were
after taxes were taken out.
--
stinkerbell
educator of our future- overworked, underpaid, and tired of getting lip
service as to how important teachers really are

In article <8kjfpi$eh...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, "Lisa"

So is eating at a sit-down restaurant.  If you can't swing the tip, you
shouldn't be eating there.  Tipping IS left at the discretion of the customer -
with the understanding that it is a major part of the income of the server.

Denise
Denise's Webhome
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Newest update - Jan's Disney Pin Page with 460 Pins for viewing!  Also my
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On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:25:10 -0500, "stinkerbell" <lbcl...@ev1.net>
wrote:

I'm not sure what you point is.  If you're saying that both you and
restaurant servers are paid a low wage, then I don't think that
Langsta2 would disagree very much.  The fact is that in most coastal
cities in the US you can't feed a family of three on that amount --
you probably can't even feed a family of two.

However, you can't extrapolate full-time salary by taking the
half-time salary and multiplying by two.  The average restaurant has
about 22 profitable hours of operation per week.  The ones lucky
enough to have both a strong lunchtime crowd and a strong dinnertime
crowd have still less than 30.  There's no way to work full-time at a
restaurant and pull in the kind of money we've been talking about
EVERY hour.  You can't go into a restaurant and say you'll only work
tables from 6pm to 9pm each night.  In order to keep the restaurant
open a respectable amount of hours, each server needs to work a
certain amount of the dead time, 2pm-6pm, typically.  So much of the
time a server works both the restaurant and the servers are
underutilized, and proportionally underpaid.  (Actually, they're
probably not underutilized; they're probably doing prep-work for the
next meal, for which they're not tipped, of course.)

--
Brian Charles Kohn (bicker®)
"We honor reality, and keep our minds open to the evidence of
the senses and of science's unending quest for deeper
understanding. These are our best means of coming to know the
Universe, and on them we base our aesthetic and religious
feelings about reality."  - Pantheist Credo
Opinions Galore: http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/bicker

The fact is that in most coastal
You can't feed a family of three anywhere on that amount without being on
the border of the poverty line.

    The point is, most of the people I see working at wait positions are
high school to college age.  Most are doing the job as a part time position
(according to you that is not an option).  However, most of the people that
I speak with would not be capable of working more as they are usually in
school.  They may not be making a LOT of money, but they are making more
money than if they worked 22 hours at $4.50 an hour for a retailer.
    They go into these jobs aware of the hours, hard work involved and the
relatively low pay that they will receive.  Now I am supposed to feel guilty
for the choices they made?  They deserve the tips they earn, but I do not
feel sorry for the low pay they take home.  We are so screwed up when it
comes to paying people what they are worth, but we all know what our pay
check will look like at the end of the week.
    I tip happily, but I don't feel for them.  I see no point in complaining
about how low their wages are when in reality there isn't anything that I am
willing to do to raise them.

--
stinkerbell
I know, teachers should be paid more.  But don't even dare to raise my taxes.

Ramble, ramble, ramble.  In a nutshell, don't ask me to pity these people.
They make a low wage- sorry, that is what our society dictates.  I leave a
healthy tip, in most instances, according to custom (15%).  I have not, nor
will I leave a tip because I feel they are underpaid.  I pay for the
services rendered, again according to custom not a sympathetic heart.
--
stinkerbell

----------
In article <smuchkrgnd...@corp.supernews.com>, "stinkerbell"

In article <8klqpi$fa...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, "Lisa"

If a waiter has an attitude, or is not doing their job properly, I will not
leave * as * big a tip.  But diners know that when they go into a full-serve
restaurant, that a tip is part of what is expected for the service they
receive.  Just like if you get a skycap at the airport - if I don't want to
tip, I don't use one.  Bellhop?  Same thing.

Denise
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In article <smt5jid6nd...@corp.supernews.com>, "stinkerbell" <lbcl...@ev1.net>
writes:

Remember that servers generally are not serving during their whole shift - and
sometimes it isn't at all busy.   If you have a 12-8 shift, you are talking
about a lunch and dinner crowd - say 12-2 and 6-8, and then a lot of down time
in between.  If you have an 11-7 type shift, you get to set up for lunch, and
you may not even be working the dinner shift.

That doesn't mean that you can't do well as a server - I bet especially the
buffet servers at WDW do pretty well.  But it IS a lot of work - not something
you want to do full time when you can be sitting in an air-conditioned office
doing data entry for the same pay.  I'd do it again - but maybe 15 hours a
week, only during meal hours.

Denise
Denise's Webhome
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Newest update - Jan's Disney Pin Page with 460 Pins for viewing!  Also my
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pages!

Sorry but we are just going to have to disagree on this.  I refuse to tip a
person who isn't doing their job.  Bellhop and Skycap are not the same
thing.  They are giving service just by carrying the bags.
news:20000714132933.02732.00001968@nso-fx.aol.com...

I think we've exhausted all there is to say about tipping. Can we please move
on. Steve.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:29:45 -0500, "stinkerbell" <lbcl...@ev1.net>
wrote:

The waiters I encounter at WDW often have more gray hair than I do.
Narcoossee, Citricos and Brown Derby, especially, have truly
professional service staff, for whom restaurant service is their
career.  

I'm not sure who was indicating that you should feel guilty about
anything.  I surely don't feel guilty, unless I fail to tip them
appropriately, as per custom.  Remember, this thread is in reply to an
assertion that servers were making close to $50 per hour.
(news:20000712222827.02128.00000861@nso-cq.aol.com.)  My point is that
just isn't anywhere close to true.

--
Brian Charles Kohn (bicker®)
"We honor reality, and keep our minds open to the evidence of
the senses and of science's unending quest for deeper
understanding. These are our best means of coming to know the
Universe, and on them we base our aesthetic and religious
feelings about reality."  - Pantheist Credo
Opinions Galore: http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/bicker

In article <smudl52vnd6...@corp.supernews.com>, "stinkerbell" <lbcl...@ev1.net>
writes:

I don't think anyone disagrees with that.   I had friends who had awful service
(actually, "impeccable" service, but an * extremely * snobby, "we don't want
you here" type attitude likely due to them not ordering wine, etc.).    They
left 15% because of the "impeccable" part, but I told them the attitude also
should count, and that I thought that they should have left a lower amount.

Denise
Denise's Webhome
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