When you don't renew your pass..
HypnoNLP2
does that mean you will still hang out here and gab and gripe about the park?
I believe that 'addiction' creates a negative cycle, going on a frequent basis
is fine but the nitpicking here on the newsgroup I think has helped create alot
of your negative feeling about the park.
I'm going tonight with my wife and I we will enjoy ourselves because the
original vision and hard work of Walt and his associates is bigger and brighter
and more apparent in the park than the out of touch management decisions that
have affected it since.
..and I'm also picking up my new pass tonight.
***********************************
"When I see sacred cow I think, mmmm STEAK!"
-Richard Bandler- Co-developer of Neuro-Linguistic Programming.
http://www.purenlp.com
SaxonCow
>From: hypn...@aol.com
>does that mean you will still hang out here and gab and gripe about the park?
>
>I believe that 'addiction' creates a negative cycle, going on a frequent
>basis
>is fine but the nitpicking here on the newsgroup I think has helped create
>alot
>of your negative feeling about the park.
>
>I'm going tonight with my wife and I we will enjoy ourselves because the
>original vision and hard work of Walt and his associates is bigger and
>brighter
>and more apparent in the park than the out of touch management decisions that
>have affected it since.
>
>..and I'm also picking up my new pass tonight.
Good post, I agree with you! (I guess that's why I think it's a good post). I
have been going for 30 years, have been an AP for 5, and reading this NG for 3
months. I was never aware of any of these "problems" until the NG, so I just
went to DL and enjoyed myself. Sometimes things weren't exactly as I liked, for
instance when they stopped the preferred parking with the pass, but I don't
worry about it, I go there and have fun.
DL is not a govt., no need for the peasants to revolt, just don't go
there if you don't like it. If enough people stop going, then that means there
is a problem, and that hasn't happened. They are obviously doing something
right.
I think some people feel that because they hold an Annual Pass, they have
a god-given right to influence Disney's decisions. An AP is nothing more than a
bunch of tickets, basically. It doesn't make your opinion of the park any more
valid, or give you some magical say in what direction the park should head. If
you want to get a job at Disney, work your way up the corporate ladder, then
you can make any changes you personally wish to make. Me, I'm just happy DL is
there, and will enjoy it, without all the pouting and whining that some seem to
relish.
Steve Tyler
SaxonCow wrote:
> I was never aware of any of these "problems" until the NG, so I just
> went to DL and enjoyed myself.
Same here. Sometimes I wonder if I would have been better off had I never
found ADD and become privy to all the inside poop-on-the-scoop. But now
that I know that this information is available, it would seem like
refusing to read a newspaper or watch the news on TV because not all of it
is pleasant if I just turned my back to it.
If anything, ADD has greatly expanded my horizons by exposing me to many
elements of the park that I never have involved myself with before, such
as shopping. LISTEN UP merch! AP'ers DO fork out the $$ for things
beyond the initial cost of the AP.
For me, ADD is good. But I can see how it could affect someone's
enjoyment of the park if they could not leave most of the controversy at
the gate.
Ciao,
Steve (c :
--
Steve Tyler - av...@lafn.org - To respond directly, delete the song
lyrics.
TDC Sojourner of the Living Desert and Nature's Wonderland
"Mustard? Let's not get ridiculous!"
"You can trust him R2. He's our new master now."
addCode: AP1 aRN1 E D26 FM2 nI k0 W0 M0
Al Lutz
HypnoNLP2 first wrote:
> I believe that 'addiction' creates a negative cycle, going
> on a frequent basis is fine but the nitpicking here on the
> newsgroup I think has helped create alot of your negative
> feeling about the park.
> I'm going tonight with my wife and I we will enjoy ourselves
> because the original vision and hard work of Walt and his
> associates is bigger and brighter and more apparent in the
> park than the out of touch management decisions that have
> affected it since. ..and I'm also picking up my new pass tonight.
SaxonCow responded:
> Good post, I agree with you! (I guess that's why I think it's a
> good post). I have been going for 30 years, have been an AP
> for 5, and reading this NG for 3 months. I was never aware
> of any of these "problems" until the NG, so I just went to DL
> and enjoyed myself. Sometimes things weren't exactly as I
> liked, for instance when they stopped the preferred parking
> with the pass, but I don't worry about it, I go there and have fun.
> DL is not a govt., no need for the peasants to revolt, just don't go
> there if you don't like it. If enough people stop going, then that
> means there is a problem, and that hasn't happened. They are
> obviously doing something right.
> I think some people feel that because they hold an Annual Pass,
> they have a god-given right to influence Disney's decisions. An
> AP is nothing more than a bunch of tickets, basically. It doesn't
> make your opinion of the park any more valid, or give you some
> magical say in what direction the park should head. If you want
> to get a job at Disney, work your way up the corporate ladder, then
> you can make any changes you personally wish to make. Me,
> I'm just happy DL is there, and will enjoy it, without all the pouting
> and whining that some seem to relish.
You know, when I read posts like this I think folks totally misunderstand
what goes on in a.d.d. How do you ask? Well read the above again with the
subject changed to, oh say, Football and see if you agree with me...
HypnoNLP2 could have written:
> I believe that 'addiction' creates a negative cycle, watching
> a game on a frequent basis is fine but the nitpicking here
> on the newsgroup I think has helped create alot of your
> negative feeling about the sport.
> I'm going tonight with my wife and I we will enjoy ourselves
> because the original vision and hard work of the NFL and their
> teams is bigger and brighter and more apparent in the
> stadium than the out of touch management decisions that
> have affected the game since. ..and I'm also picking up my
> new season ticket tonight.
SaxonCow may have responded:
> Good post, I agree with you! (I guess that's why I think it's a
> good post). I have been going for 30 years, have been an NFL
> seat holder for 5, and reading this NG for 3 months. I was never
> aware of any of these "problems" until the NG, so I just went to
> the stadium and enjoyed myself. Sometimes things weren't exactly
> as I liked, for instance when they stopped the bringing beer to your
> seat, but I don't worry about it, I go there and have fun. The NFL is
> not a govt., no need for the peasants to revolt, just don't go there
> if you don't like it. If enough people stop going, then that
> means there is a problem, and that hasn't happened. They are
> obviously doing something right.
> I think some people feel that because they hold a season ticket,
> they have a god-given right to influence the NFL's decisions. It's
> really nothing more than a bunch of tickets, basically. It doesn't
> make your opinion of the game any more valid, or give you some
> magical say in what direction the coach should call a play. If you want
> to get a job at the NFL, work your way up the corporate ladder, then
> you can make any changes you personally wish to make. Me,
> I'm just happy the NFL is there, and will enjoy it, without all the
pouting
> and whining that some seem to relish.
Could you imagine a talk radio sports show with the mindset of the above
posts? Fans are customers, and they want to speak up after they invest
their money, weather it's a player that costs too much and does nothing for
their team, or it's a policy of closing down restaurants early to save a few
bucks and limiting your choices to eat in the park.
What the exercise above should do is kind of bring home the fact Disneyland
is a business, and your money is what they are in business to solicit from
you. Like any company that provides a service that you pay for - it's
important in this free economy of ours that you as a customer be able to
speak up about how you feel about what you get in return for spending your
money and that you feel as a customer you are getting value for your dollar.
I think the park has made some pretty poor, rather customer unfriendly
decisions in the past three, going on four years under this current
management, [which both folks above do acknowledge]. But just because the
place is a favorite, and maybe projects a fuzzy-wuzzy image to the world, it
doesn't mean they should be immune from any customer criticism. You are a
customer, and the company exists to provide you a service when you pay them
for it. If anything, the critiques are even more valid here in this forum,
since they tend to come from people whose main interest seems to be in
making the place even better for all visitors for the most part. The axiom
rings true here - if you really hated it, you'd walk away. If you love it,
you'll speak up for making it even better.
Many folks just think the complaining only seems to be because people want
scam something for free. [And yes, there are people like that in this
world.] But if you really read the postings, you'd be hard pressed to find
in any newsgroup on the net people like the ones here who are practically
begging the company to allow them to spend even more of their hard earned
money - as has been the case with the dearth of attraction specific
merchandising or requests that dining establishments remain open later to
offer a better dining choice so they can pay for a meal in berm instead of
out.
Let's not confuse the term Disneyland uses for it's visitors with what they
actually are. You are never a "guest," when you pay for your admission,
either for one day or for one year, you are a "customer." And Disneyland
park built a 40 year plus reputation on serving customers better than just
about any place else on earth. Raising prices to the heights Disneyland has
is a given IF standards have been maintained or improved during that time
because they've nurtured an expectation from customers of being a first
class operation. But the if prices continue to go up, and you get less each
time, you need to let them know that isn't OK with you. Also let's also
hope that the customers don't have to remind them of standards they used to
set quite dazzlingly on their own. :)
BTW - I was recently shown a list of decisions made at the park that were
influenced by the very strong customer feedback they've been getting. [Yes,
even including us here online.] You may think of this type of feedback as
nit-picking, but many of the points made in these forums, and also via E &
Snail mail have made more of a difference in how the park operates on a day
to day basis than you may think. All of it for the good of all visitors I
might add - including the two folks quoted above - and yes, even to the
benefit of Disney's bank account.
When people care, they speak up. And Disneyland has done so much well for
so long, they have built a very large customer base that does care about
what goes on inside there. Instead of looking at this as a problem, they
should be looking at it as an opportunity. A good business always does that
to increase the opportunity good customers offer to them.
Al
--
Al Lutz -- alweho...@aol.com -- FDC & TDC Buzz Lightyear
Author of D-I-G (Disneyland Info. Guide) http://members.aol.com/alweho/
PROMOTE PRESSLER! - http://members.aol.com/alweho/pressler/pressler.htm
"Strange how potent cheap music can be" (Noel Coward's "Private Lives")
JBOD53
I am with you brother!!!!! I worked for three years in a magic shop ( My
college days) We would constantly deal with Big time magicians who, honestly,
believed they pocessed some magic powers. Hey!! For the same money, I could be
just as magical as they. In fact, anyone with the money to buy the trick could
be magical. DL is a business.Like it or not. Thatfact has been there since
day one.If that were not the case, Disney would have made it a public park,
with no entrance fee. As I said in my first post, If you don't like things,
send a message by staying away. That is the only way you hurt a business. You
don't buy their product. Everytime you walk in that gate, you are casting a
positive vote for the current management, you oppose. Paul, Judson, Etc. will
stay as long as you keep supporting them. And that is the bottom line!!! But
go ahead, flame me. Tell me how you fight the injustice of seeing something you
love and have strong feelings about go down the drain. YADA YADA YADA.
Mrliver1
Steve Tyler <av468spamie-h...@lafn.org> writes:
>If anything, ADD has greatly expanded my horizons by exposing me to many
>elements of the park that I never have involved myself with before, such
>as shopping. LISTEN UP merch! AP'ers DO fork out the $$ for things
>beyond the initial cost of the AP.
>For me, ADD is good. But I can see how it could affect someone's
>enjoyment of the park if they could not leave most of the controversy at
>the gate.
I think this was a two way street for me. When I finalyl got my AP the days of
running from attraction to attraction were over for me. No longer would I be
able to go for a day and experience the magic that the normal tourist gets to
enjoy. I was no longer thrilled with just being there. There had to be more.
And as I found new things to enjoy I also found new things that I wasn't
impressed with, or sometimes really unhappy to see. As I started to spend more
time on Main Street <as opposed to ride hopping> I started enjoying the
atmosphere, but also started to nitice the merchandise. I had time to notice
the themeing at even the smallest cheepest restuarant, but then I noticed that
food quality wasn't what it could be. As I was able to ride any attraction
anytime I wanted to I started noticing the details put into them, but also the
elements of the show that were broken or missing.
It's in that respect that a.d.d. becoems a way for me to enjoy the park more.
I doubt that most people who try to read the group, the one day visitors, the
tourist, and to some degree even the CM's understand what exactly is going on
here. We are able to criticize mostly out of love and a desire to see the park
stirve to become near perfect.
This is what makes a.d.d. such a valuable tool to Disneyland. If they only had
a disire to do the best they could things would be much better. If we
blindly allowed DL management to whatever it wanted to, to take all the cheap
cost-cutting measure, to sell all the cheap merchanside and bad food, then a
day would come when I would be sitting at a buffeteria, without bags of
merhacndise, eating cheap food with a plastic fork, and I'd realize then that
the park had lost its magic and would never get it back." ?
a.d.d. gives me an outlet that allows me to make sure that the magic will be
preserved... so that my children will be able to come and enjoy it in the same
way I have.
-Mr. Liver
This post now features multiple multitudes of mispellings!
The Long awaited ADD FAQ - For You're reading pleasure
http://members.aol.com/mrliver1/addfaq/
Who is Tony 3ax er Anyway?
SaxonCow
>From: "Al Lutz"
Good post, but long, so snip....
> Like any company that provides a service that you pay for - it's
>important in this free economy of ours that you as a customer be able to
>speak up about how you feel about what you get in return for spending your
>money and that you feel as a customer you are getting value for your dollar.
I agree that if there is a deficiency in any area, it should be pointed out to
the powers that be. But that is a subjective opinion, and must be treated as
such. As an annual passholder, your opinions are quite different than the
casual visitor. It's the difference between dating and marriage. You don't
really begin to see the faults until you spend day after day with the same
person, but are the little things that annoy you faults, or are they just
"things that annoy YOU".
You mentioned several times your desire to have a broader range of eating
establishments, open later in the evening. Why? Because that's what you want.
Is it currently a problem? Not for me. I wish it was a little cheaper,
obviously, but no amount of whining on my part will change that. You mention
the lack of attraction specific merchandising. Is that really a problem? Not
for me. It would be great if they had more Disney Mugs, or character miniatures
for under $6.00, but I feel that way because I personally like those things. Do
I expect them to manufacture those things? no.
Do I expect clean restrooms? yes, and they are. Do I expect to feel safe,
yes. Do I expect Disney to constantly work on improving and not become
stagnant? yes.
>When people care, they speak up. And Disneyland has done so much well for
>so long, they have built a very large customer base that does care about
>what goes on inside there.
I agree, and I can obviously see you love the place, and wish nothing but the
best for it, and people like you do play an important part in the development.
But I do see a difference between constructive criticism, and "nit-picking",
and there seems to be quite a bit of the latter on this NG.
I wouldn't want to read "I love Peter Pan"..."Me too!" every day, but I
do get somewhat irritated when people refer to Disney as some great uncaring
giant with ears deaf to the complaining of the poor souls who have to suffer
through a day at Disneyland.
In any case, I enjoyed your post, and I've blathered long enough.
Kirk
Mrliver1
saxo...@aol.com (SaxonCow) writes:
>I agree that if there is a deficiency in any area, it should be pointed out
>to the powers that be. But that is a subjective opinion, and must be treated
as
>such. As an annual passholder, your opinions are quite different than the
>casual visitor.
But I still pay for admission. If anything I think the opinions of an Annual
Passholder to be just as if not more important than that of a one day visitor
who won't be back for maybe a year. And to top it off most one day visitors
don't even know where to go to complain. This helps to make it seems like AP's
are the only ones who want things to change.
> It's the difference between dating and marriage. You don't
>really begin to see the faults until you spend day after day with the same
>person, but are the little things that annoy you faults, or are they just
>"things that annoy YOU".
There are little things that annoy me. The fact that the last time I bought
popcorn it was really cold and stale. The fact that the Rocket Rods are really
annoying to me. The fact I can't get decent curly fries. The fact that the
orange tile in the Starcade is really ugly. Most of these things I don't
expect them to change at my whim. But many things expressed here are often
echoed by many others here, many times over.
> You mentioned several times your desire to have a broader range of eating
>establishments, open later in the evening. Why? Because that's what you want.
>Is it currently a problem? Not for me.
Because you don't let it be a problem I guess. It is a problem, not only to
Al, and myself, but to the many others here who go to have lunch at the Park
only to find that at 3 pm the only place open is the Plaza Inn and the fast
food places. One day guests who are ride hopping won't notice as they are
looking for food fast anyway. But people who really want to enjoy the park for
what it has to offer can't because they believe its profitable enough to keep a
coupld more places open.
>You mention the lack of attraction specific merchandising. Is that really a
problem? >Not for me. It would be great if they had more Disney Mugs, or
character
>miniatures for under $6.00, but I feel that way because I personally like
those >things. Do I expect them to manufacture those things? no.
I do. We have expressed several times over on this Newsgroup that this
merchandise is really wanted. Unless you don't have a Disney Store near you
the shopping experience at Disneyland isn't anything to get worked up about.
And yet IT COULD BE if they started selling some more Disneyland specific and
Attraction specific stuff. And why is that so unplausable? They do it at WDW
and it does well over there. I am certain they do it at DLP and TDL too.
Disneyland is probably the only park which had the lack of Attraction specific
merc and only NOW <thanks to the complaints and comments they got> are they
starting to change their merchandise profile.
> Do I expect clean restrooms? yes, and they are. Do I expect to feel
>safe, yes. Do I expect Disney to constantly work on improving and not become
>stagnant? yes.
Becoming stagnant though is like you said, an opinion. There are a lot of
people here who don't believe they are doing the BEST they can. Should we just
sit back and accept this slippage of Disney qulaity? Or shoudl they speak up
in hopes things can be fixed and improved.
>>When people care, they speak up. And Disneyland has done so much well for
>>so long, they have built a very large customer base that does care about
>>what goes on inside there.
>
>I agree, and I can obviously see you love the place, and wish nothing but the
>best for it, and people like you do play an important part in the
>development.
>But I do see a difference between constructive criticism, and "nit-picking",
>and there seems to be quite a bit of the latter on this NG.
Could you please post an example of this. Many of the things posted here are
good constructive criticism. The only real nit-picking is about things we know
are not really in a position to threaten the experience of going to Disneyland
<such as the Rocket Rod whine>. Where as going to the Big Thunder BBQ for
dinner... seeing its closed... then heading over the the Village Haus.. to see
it closed.. then finally having to eat at the TL Terrace leaves a really bad
taste in my mouth <no pun intended>. Walking out of Disneyland without even
shopping doesn't help either. I mean most of the stuff there I can order out
of the Disney Catalog.
> I wouldn't want to read "I love Peter Pan"..."Me too!" every day, but I
>do get somewhat irritated when people refer to Disney as some great uncaring
>giant with ears deaf to the complaining of the poor souls who have to suffer
>through a day at Disneyland.
If thats the impression you get of this group then maybe you should stop
reading. People here love to go to Disneyland and only complain because they
can HAVE a even better experience, yet know they won't get it. And that can
only be because Disneyland has become too uncaring. It's more about the money
now then anything else. It's sad to see greed invade the Magic Kingdom, but I
see it everytime I walk into the place. I honestly wouldn't mind paying 40
bucks if I could go a whole day at Disneyland without having to see what Budget
cutbacks and streamlining have done to things.
> In any case, I enjoyed your post, and I've blathered long enough.
So have I
Anonymous
SaxonCow wrote:
>
> Good post, I agree with you! (I guess that's why I think it's a good post). I
> have been going for 30 years, have been an AP for 5, and reading this NG for 3
> months. I was never aware of any of these "problems" until the NG, so I just
> went to DL and enjoyed myself. Sometimes things weren't exactly as I liked, for
> instance when they stopped the preferred parking with the pass, but I don't
> worry about it, I go there and have fun.
> DL is not a govt., no need for the peasants to revolt, just don't go
> there if you don't like it. If enough people stop going, then that means there
> is a problem, and that hasn't happened. They are obviously doing something
> right.
> I think some people feel that because they hold an Annual Pass, they have
> a god-given right to influence Disney's decisions. An AP is nothing more than a
> bunch of tickets, basically. It doesn't make your opinion of the park any more
> valid, or give you some magical say in what direction the park should head. If
> you want to get a job at Disney, work your way up the corporate ladder, then
> you can make any changes you personally wish to make. Me, I'm just happy DL is
> there, and will enjoy it, without all the pouting and whining that some seem to
> relish. ...
Until it falls apart and whithers away.
I have no problem with people who enjoy the park and are oblivious to
any problems that exist, but I do have a problem with them telling
people who are concerned enough to try and keep the quality and
integrity of the park intact that they're wrong or that the only way to
change anything is to take Pressler's place.
If you want to just enjoy the park, fine. But the other thing that you
are oblivious to is that there are NUMEROUS people here, working in the
park and, yes, even working up through the corporate ladder, who are
doing their damndest to keep the park at the level of quality that
everyone expects and allows you to just be happy that DL is there.
So, if you want to post nice trip reports and provide an upbeat side to
this newsgroup, please continue. We all enjoy the good stuff. But please
don't tell people that their entheusastic efforts to ensure that the
Magic of Disneyland will always be there is a waste of time.
Insight
Cindy Yan
SaxonCow <saxo...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199803210617...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> You mentioned several times your desire to have a broader range of eating
> establishments, open later in the evening. Why? Because that's what you
want.
No, because that's also what's best for DL. About a month or two ago, when
DL was closing at 9pm on a Sunday, a number of us got together for dinner,
but the only places open (and this was about 6 or so, I think) were Plaza
Inn and River Belle Terrace. Cafe Orleans was closed. French Market was
closed. I believe Casa Mexicana was closed as well. And even at the
River Belle, there was only one side open, so that we ended up spending
probably about 20 minutes or so in line. I think later in the evening,
they did open the other side (which seems strange to me since I'd have both
lines open earlier and only one line open later), but again, at prime
dinner time, it was quite a wait. Management seems to be forcing a
self-fulfilling prophecy. No one stays for dinner on a Sunday night when
DL isn't open late, so why bother having that many restaurants open? Well,
because of the lack of choice and long wait time, people probably decided
not to stay for dinner and opted to go somewhere outside. Lather, rinse,
repeat.
--
/cy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you will not turn to the dark side,
then perhaps Minnie will.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeffrey Graebner
SaxonCow wrote in message
<199803210617...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>I agree that if there is a deficiency in any area, it should be pointed out
to
>the powers that be. But that is a subjective opinion, and must be treated
as
>such. As an annual passholder, your opinions are quite different than the
>really begin to see the faults until you spend day after day with the same
>person, but are the little things that annoy you faults, or are they just
>"things that annoy YOU".
I am reminded here of one of the lessons presented in a political science
course that I took in college. The lesson concerned the importance of
letters written to members of congress and other politicians. The professor
explained that politicians tend to take such letters >very< seriously on the
assumption that any one letter probably represents the opinion of a much
larger number of constituents. Those that write the letters are typically
more politically active than the typical person and feel particularly
passionate about the subjectmatter, but there is a very strong liklihood
that there are many more people that share the concern but simply do not
know who to express it to or who don't feel quite strongly enough about it
to take the time to write a letter.
I think the situation with the comments about Disneyland coming from APs and
other frequent visitors is largely the same. APs are the customers that
will generally have the knowledge of how to express their concerns and the
passion to take the time to do so. That certainly doesn't mean that more
casual guests do not see the same problems. Their way of responding will
just tend to be more passive. If an AP holder is unable to find an
appealing dinner in the park, there is a good chance that he/she will take
the time to make certain Disney is aware of the situation. A casual visitor
will simply leave early and eat dinner elsewhere. They probably will also
not include an evening meal in their plans or budget for their next trip.
Worst case, the experience might even make them less interested in having a
next trip. The same is true of the merchandise situation. A frequent guest
will complain loudly about being unable to find anything they want to buy.
After the same experience, a casual guest will just not budget souveniers in
to their next visit. Considering all of this, do you think it would be in
Disney's best interest to listen to what the frequent visitors have to say?
>I agree, and I can obviously see you love the place, and wish nothing but
the
>best for it, and people like you do play an important part in the
development.
>But I do see a difference between constructive criticism, and
"nit-picking",
>and there seems to be quite a bit of the latter on this NG.
Earlier in your message, you spent quite a bit of time describing which
potential problems in the park matter to you and which do not. You even
acknowledged that other people will likely feel differently. Doesn't it
follow that what you see as "nit-picking" may be very important to other
people?
> I wouldn't want to read "I love Peter Pan"..."Me too!" every day, but
I
>do get somewhat irritated when people refer to Disney as some great
uncaring
>giant with ears deaf to the complaining of the poor souls who have to
suffer
>through a day at Disneyland.
I've lost count of the number of times I've seen this same basic
misconception posted. I doubt that there is a single person posting on this
newsgroup that considers themselves to be suffering when visiting
Disneyland. Most of the people that are completely disillusioned with the
park are the ones that no longer go and no longer are interested enough to
post. The postings here are from people that >do< still thoroughly enjoy
Disneyland and want to be able to continue to do so, or perhaps even to
enjoy it more.
--
Jeffrey Graebner
West Los Angeles, California
Email: jeff_g...@compuserve.com
addcode: AP2 aO3 ElLVmK D32 Fw nLCd k0 W0 M0
"Dreams are make-believe and would they all come true!"
- Fantasmic! @ Disneyland
Anonymous
----
Now THAT would be a total waste of time. It's best not to deal with
those with a narrow mental focus. I do hope that you have found yourself
a nice job as an MBA with some big generic financial firm that doesn't
deal with people. Those here, who are trying to ensure the Disney Magic
isn't compromised, believe that Disneyland management hasn't gotten to
your level of thinking (where there's absolutely no possible way Magic
will win out over money). There ARE other ways of expressing yourself
other than just with money.
CS
JBOD53
Funny you should mention it, but I work for Disney
JBOD53
CS- read my post again. You miss the point. I'm not saying money = magic.
I'm saying that the price of an Ap does not give a person more clout than that
of a casual guest. That was the point of this thread. You seem to be taking it
down another road or reading something into my post, because I used the example
of magic and magicians. I am talking about unwarranted ownership.
Anonymous
SaxonCow wrote:
>
> >From: "Al Lutz"
> Good post, but long, so snip....
> > Like any company that provides a service that you pay for - it's
> >important in this free economy of ours that you as a customer be able to
> >speak up about how you feel about what you get in return for spending your
> >money and that you feel as a customer you are getting value for your dollar.
>
> the powers that be. But that is a subjective opinion, and must be treated as
> such. As an annual passholder, your opinions are quite different than the
> casual visitor. It's the difference between dating and marriage. You don't
> really begin to see the faults until you spend day after day with the same
> person, but are the little things that annoy you faults, or are they just
> "things that annoy YOU".
> establishments, open later in the evening. Why? Because that's what you want.
> the lack of attraction specific merchandising. Is that really a problem? Not
> for me. It would be great if they had more Disney Mugs, or character miniatures
> for under $6.00, but I feel that way because I personally like those things. Do
> I expect them to manufacture those things? no.
> yes. Do I expect Disney to constantly work on improving and not become
> stagnant? yes.
>
> >so long, they have built a very large customer base that does care about
> >what goes on inside there.
>
> best for it, and people like you do play an important part in the development.
> But I do see a difference between constructive criticism, and "nit-picking",
> and there seems to be quite a bit of the latter on this NG.
> do get somewhat irritated when people refer to Disney as some great uncaring
> giant with ears deaf to the complaining of the poor souls who have to suffer
> through a day at Disneyland.
You've actually provided your own argument. You say that the things that
are important to you are all that you care about. You're safe, you get
clean restrooms, etc. You are happy with the overall experience and the
details aren't important to you.
Well, the things people have been discussing here, including the
details, are what's important to THEM. You may consider it
"nit-picking", but to them, it's an IMPORTANT element of the Disneyland
Magic. And, just because you may not see 'Disney as some great uncaring
giant with ears deaf to the complaining of the poor souls who have to
suffer through a day at Disneyland', doesn't mean that there aren't
those here who do see it.
The "nit-picking" HAS been effective in influencing decisions made at
Disneyland. If you don't want to hear any of it, then my best advice is
to try and avoid those posts that get involved with it. I know there are
some threads the I completly ignore. When you find one, just hit 'Mark
Thread Read' and go on.
Insight
Opus1guy
jbod53 wrote:
>I am talking about unwarranted ownership.<
"To all who come to this happy place...Welcome! Disneyland is YOUR land."
Ken Witworth
SolZePP
Thanks for proving my point. Disneyland is open to ALL not just a group of APs.
It belongs to everyone who walks in the gates. the Ap AND the casual guest,
both are of equal value.
Alana Hommel
In article <uMJsFHS...@ntawwabp.compuserve.com>, "Jeffrey Graebner"
<jeff_g...@NOSPAM.compuserve.com> wrote:
> I am reminded here of one of the lessons presented in a political science
> course that I took in college. The lesson concerned the importance of
> letters written to members of congress and other politicians. The professor
> explained that politicians tend to take such letters >very< seriously on the
> assumption that any one letter probably represents the opinion of a much
> larger number of constituents. Those that write the letters are typically
> more politically active than the typical person and feel particularly
> passionate about the subjectmatter, but there is a very strong liklihood
> that there are many more people that share the concern but simply do not
> know who to express it to or who don't feel quite strongly enough about it
> to take the time to write a letter.
I interned in my Congressman's office. One phone call counted as five, one
letter as ten. We did not have e-mail back then. When we got form letters,
fill in the blank post cards, or people who identified themselves as part
of one group, those were given a lesser value. For example, no matter how
many post cards came in, they would count as one. Disney seems to be using
a similar system to deal with the form letters they are getting from the
religious right.
Alana
--
Alan...@net1plus.com
remove "FOO" from address
Anonymous
JBOD53 wrote:
>
> Funny you should mention it, but I work for Disney
----
Well, by the tone of your post, you sound like you work for 'corporate'
Disney.
CS
Anonymous
JBOD53 wrote:
>
> CS- read my post again. You miss the point. I'm not saying money = magic.
> I'm saying that the price of an Ap does not give a person more clout than that
> of a casual guest. That was the point of this thread. You seem to be taking it
> down another road or reading something into my post, because I used the example
----
Well, sitting here rereading your post, the impression I get from it is
that, given enough money, you, or anyone else for that matter, can be as
magical as some name magician. That says to me that you think money can
take the place of talent.
Next, you say that Disneyland is a business. Of course it is. But, a
business wouldn't last very long if it didn't give the customer what
they wanted. You say that the only way to send a message about
dissatisfaction is to stay away and not patronize the business. Well,
that's fine if you don't care about the business. If you don't like what
your local market does, then you can get the same item at another market
and it probably wouldn't matter if the first market went out of
busineess. But this is Disneyland. And many people DO care about what
happens to it and they don't want it to fail. They want it to get
BETTER. When someone goes to the park, they're NOT casting any sort of
positive vote for current management. They're supporting the Magic of
the park and those who uphold it. Posting here, writing letters, and the
other ways that people are 'fighting the injustice of seeing something
you love and have strong feelings about go down the drain' (or as you
put it...YADA YADA YADA) ARE effective ways to influence decisions made
by management. IT'S BEEN DONE.
As for AP's having more clout than the casual guest, in some ways they
do. The casual guest is the one who will just walk away and spend their
money elsewhere if they're not happy with their experience. When the
park gets complaints from a casual guest, it's often accompnied by the
statement thet they will never go to a Disney park again. The AP will
write, then write again, then post, and keep nagging until the problem
is resolved. THAT'S what keeps Disneyland in business. Not walking away
and ignoring it.
If this went down different roads, then it's because you had them in
your original post.
CS
SaxonCow
>From: "Jeffrey Graebner" <jeff_g...@NOSPAM.compuserve.com>
>>I
>>do get somewhat irritated when people refer to Disney as some >>great
>uncaring
>>giant with ears deaf to the complaining of the poor souls who >>have to
>>suffer
>>through a day at Disneyland.
>I've lost count of the number of times I've seen this same basic
>misconception posted. I doubt that there is a single person posting on this
>newsgroup that considers themselves to be suffering when visiting
>Disneyland.
Just for the record, I took that almost verbatim from another post where
the person was explaining why they weren't renewing. All the adjectives, (deaf,
uncaring, etc.) are straight from their post, so although it may not be fair to
characterize the majority of the NG as sharing those feelings, be aware that in
at least that one particular example it was not a "misconception" as you
suggest.
Again, for that same record, I believe that you are correct, and that they
majority of the posters who do complain, do so for positive reasons.
JBOD53
CS-
We are obviously going to have to agree to disagree. I will mention once
again, ( as I read over and over again on the NG) Most people on A.D.D. believe
that the current management puts money first, magic second. I don't have an
arguement with that thought. That is our current society in general. With that
in mind, You make changes by not supporting their business. Even if it is a
major sacrafice. Even if it means you have to stop visiting the park. If the
current management are a bunch of bean counters, then you have to take away the
beans. As you mentioned in your post, AP's threaten to never come back. Don't
make idle threats. Stay away. If you have noticed, Whenever Mr. Pressler's
reign as president is mentioned, the fact that Disneyland experienced an
attendance surge is also noted. They mention this with the implied thought that
High attendance = good job performance. Take away the attendance and we start
to look at what management is doing wrong. Constant complaints about any and
everything do nothing but discredit the last complaint. You have to pick your
battles.
As for my Magic analogy, I was merely trying to state that the secrets and
the world of magic are available and belong to everyone ( Amatuer and Pro)
Because you purchase a trick does not instantly give you an exclusive right or
make you a better performer than someone else. Everyone , AP or casual guest
has the right to purchase a ticket. The price of the pass does not give
someone more rights or make them better than a one day guest. That was my
point. Please let's drop it here! We have both stated our points well, and
that's all that can be said. Let's agree to leave it at that.
Lt. D'Amato [Andrew Rich]
In article <199803201805...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
saxo...@aol.com says...
<snip>
> I think some people feel that because they hold an Annual Pass, they have
> a god-given right to influence Disney's decisions. An AP is nothing more than a
> bunch of tickets, basically. It doesn't make your opinion of the park any more
> valid, or give you some magical say in what direction the park should head. If
> you want to get a job at Disney, work your way up the corporate ladder, then
> you can make any changes you personally wish to make. Me, I'm just happy DL is
> there, and will enjoy it, without all the pouting and whining that some seem to
> relish.
Look, try to understand this:
I am a paying customer ("guest" in Disneyspeak, but guest usually implies
not paying for entry). Disneyland makes their money from paying
customers. Therefore, my opinion (as well as that of every other paying
customer) should be the MOST IMPORTANT THING to Disneyland, Inc. If
Disneyland wants to make money from me, they should give me good reasons
to spend my money! Get it?
--
Lt. D'Amato (Andrew Rich) damato [at] project [dash] insomnia [dot] com
http://www.project-insomnia.com/ FBC Backstage Tour Guide ICQ 4161631
Disneyland Backstage: http://www.project-insomnia.com/backstage/
McDonald's at Disneyland? http://www.project-insomnia.com/misc/mcd_dl.htm
addCode: ADp5 aR2 ElLK1 D45 Fw nLId k8 W4 M35
SolZePP
CS-
You sound as if you might not work at all.
Al Lutz
I wanted to comment on ONE thing in your post JB:
JBOD53 wrote:
> If you have noticed, Whenever Mr. Pressler's reign as
> president is mentioned, the fact that Disneyland
> experienced an attendance surge is also noted. They
> mention this with the implied thought that High attendance
> = good job performance. Take away the attendance and
> we start to look at what management is doing wrong.
Actually higher attendance doesn't mean he's doing a better job in all the
areas, especially the ones we talk about here online. Higher attendance
means he's got a terrific marketing team in place, with effective
advertising, and savvy discounting.
But it doesn't automatically mean, as so many will assume when saying "Well
he must be doing ok with the numbers up!" that he is addressing the problems
with a bad show [LM which through merchandise sales alone proved it was a
massive failure] nor that he's focusing on things like.
> You have to pick your battles.
Why should customers even be put in battle mode?
> The price of the pass does not give someone more rights
> or make them better than a one day guest. That was my
> point. Please let's drop it here! We have both stated our
> points well, and that's all that can be said. Let's agree to
> leave it at that.
I think the day visitor owes a LOT of the current quality of his experience
thanks to the passholders. The APs take the time and note when things could
be better.
Disneyland can only benefit from that. :)
SaxonCow
>From: for....@look.below (Lt. D'Amato [Andrew Rich])
>Look, try to understand this:
Duh, I'll try.....
.>I am a paying customer ("guest" in Disneyspeak, but guest usually implies
>not paying for entry).
I think all hotels and some other businesses usually refer to "customers" as
guests, so it isn't just "Disneyspeak".
> Disneyland makes their money from paying
>customers.
Hey, I undertand that!
> Therefore, my opinion (as well as that of every other paying
>customer) should be the MOST IMPORTANT THING to Disneyland, Inc.
I would bet that their attendance figures are more important than opinion
polls. If there are enough negative opinions out there, attendance will go
down, I'm sure. Even if all the people who go there hate it, and they don't, if
they keep going there, why should those opinions matter that strongly?
>If
>Disneyland wants to make money from me, they should give me good reasons
>to spend my money!
> Get it?
I think I get it! You've made it all clear. So Disneyland has to be fun, or
people won't go there. I guess that's why so many people do go there.
Get it?
I'm not saying there is never room for improvement, and I'm not saying there
aren't things I would change. My initial post was responding to the opinion
expressed by someone that they were not renewing their pass because of the
terrible direction DL is heading. I disagreed, and stated my opinion that I
didn't believe DL was headed in such a terrible direction, and that I felt that
some of the negative opinions were just grasping at straws, and seemed
insignificant and silly. Some people agreed with me, a few others, (insight,
and mr.liver, and a. lutz) disagreed and stated their case well enough to make
me reconsider. I actually went back over the posts, and found that there
weren't as many "nit-picks" as I thought, though there were undeniably some.
In any case, though I don't appreciate the tone of your "argument" as
much as the others, I have no doubt of your sincerity. I promise to drop this
whole thread, and had dropped it until the "get it?" For some reason that
always smacks of patronization, and up until then the discourse had been
extremely civil.
Thanks for responding, I appreciate the time it took to do so, and I hope
you enjoy Disneyland again as much as I do.
Mrliver1
>From: saxo...@aol.com (SaxonCow)
> If there are enough negative opinions out there, attendance will >go down,
I'm sure.
There were two determining factors that have kept attendance where they have
been for the last two summers. The Final MSEP and Light Magic. This summer
with the New Tomorrowland and the Light Magic replacement attendance will
probably surge again.
Since Pressler came into Office there has always been a summer draw to the
Park. Indy in 95, Final MSEP in 96, LM in 97, and New Tomorrowland in 98. The
true test will come next yaer when they don't have any major plans for a summer
draw...
We will then find out if Pressler will be able to keep them coming through the
gates and spending their money.
JBOD53
AL -
I"LL GO SLOOOOOW!!! I didn't say I thought he was doing a great job. I said,
the media and masses would put that connection together. It works the same way
with other business. You do remember, these are business people. Their worth
amongst themselves is how well the BUSINESS is doing.
A customer or guest should not HAVE to be in a battle mode, that seems to be
the choice of the author of the original post. I was just giving my opinion on
the best way to deal with the coporate world.
If you think constantly sending complaint letters works for you and doesn't
leave the reader with the impression that you are nothing but a constant
complainer, go ahead. I guess you have found what works for you. I look forward
to the major changes in business attitudes in the park due to you r letters.
Rheterik
SaxonCow wrote:
>If there are enough negative opinions out there, attendance will
>go down, I'm sure.
Mr. Liver wrote:
>Since Pressler came into Office there has always been a summer
>draw to the Park. Indy in 95, Final MSEP in 96, LM in 97, and
>New Tomorrowland in 98. The true test will come next yaer
>when they don't have any major plans for a summer draw...
This seems like a bit of a red herring to me. In the first place, this is a
pretty normal (and legitimate) business practice. But more to the point: Not to
try to put words into your mouth, Mr. Liver, but your implication seems to be
that people are being "suckered" into the park. But if that were true, then
they would naturally be more wary and stay away the next year (I should think).
And, so far at least, that just doesn't seem to be happening.
To some extent, I'm forced to agree with SaxonCow. By going and spending our
money at Disneyland, we are all giving the current regime a vote of confidence,
whether we really mean to or not.
Of course, to my mind, that just means that we should all make sure to voice
our disapproval of things we don't like every chance we get, just to sort of
make up for that. ;o)
Just my own twisted take on it.
Rheterik
The views expressed above, the sentiments, the ideas, the gently sloping walls
around you, and even the ceilings, are made of plastics.
Opus1guy
mrliver1 wrote:
>We will then find out if Pressler will be able to keep them coming through the
gates and spending their money.<
Yes, new attractions are what is keeping attendance up, regardless of the
slipping of the overall quality of the show. There is one thing Eisner learned
very quickly and which most other parks now take for granted...no big new
attraction or show, and attendance goes down.
If there is nothing new at the park in 1999, attendance will be flat or down,
regardless of who is in charge...Pressler, Lindquist, Dorges, Dominques, Nunis,
et. al. The only thing Pressler can do is to make sure there IS something in
the works for '99 (it will probably be MSEP or some other new parade or show).
As I have mentioned before, the long term problem created by the current
quaility slippage, is that of lowering the total Disneyland experience to a
level which makes it less unique than other parks, which results in the
neccesity to be more aggressive in advertising and marketing in order to
compete. By having a unique product, you don't need to direct as much of your
resources to marketing, and can spend that money on capital improvements to
help keep your product fresh, refreshed, alive and unique.
This IMHO is the problem with current management... they don't have the vision
to see this...they come from the outside corporate world and bring with them
their "new" ideas, which are really the same "old" ideas that everyone else is
doing in business these days and which Walt tried to get away from. They don't
understand what makes Disneyland unique (they say they do, but they don't, or
are afraid to speak up), and that THEY should be LEARNING from what IS
Disneyland, or they will end up having to resort to asking the guest to
REMEMBER what WAS Disneyland, in order to keep up guest loyality. Last year's
"Remember the Magic" theme at WDW made me sick. It did just this - remember
how great it used to be! Not how great it is NOW! This is always a sign of
weak product, when you have to resort to playing on past associations, and
marketing how your product USED TO BE satisfiying. If Disney were smart, they
would relearn the orignal Disneyland phlosophy, cut overhead, and redirect
monies to keep the Park fresh and new. If you build it, they will come! And
you won't have to spend 10's of millions on advertising some black and white
home movies of how it used to be, in order to keep attendance up!
Ken Witworth
Mrliver1
In article <199803242129...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, rhet...@aol.com
(Rheterik) writes:
>This seems like a bit of a red herring to me. In the first place, this is a
>pretty normal (and legitimate) business practice. But more to the point: Not
>to try to put words into your mouth, Mr. Liver, but your implication seems to
be
>that people are being "suckered" into the park.
I don't think suckered is the right term for it. I think "draw" is a better
one. Average Joe Q Public needs to have a reason to jump out of his chair and
spend $300 bucks to drag his family to Disneyland for a day. People want to
make sure they are getting their money's worth, especially with the possibility
that One Day Passports may be going up to $40 by the time May rolls around.
It's after they see a comercial for a New Tomorrowland, or "The Temple of the
Forbidden Eye" that they decided that another trip to Disneyland is worth it.
Disneyland knows this, thats why most premieres and openings are in May at the
start of summer.
> But if that were true, then they would naturally be more wary and stay away
the >next year (I should think). And, so far at least, that just doesn't seem
to be >happening.
You have the attendace figures for next year already? WOW (o;
My point was come next year, there will be no major new draw. No new nighttime
parade <assuming Mulan is still running>, No new daytime parade. No new rides
<assuming Innoventions opens BY THEN>. This is the first time that Disneyland
hasn't had a summer draw since Pressler and his "streamlining" took effect. IT
will like I said, be interesting to see if people will still pay that premium
price to see something they saw last year. They may just decide to stay away
until DCA <RIP> is done. The only draw Disneyland will have after the New
Tomorrowland is the fact that its a great Theme Park... but there will be
people out there who will think its just not worth the price unless they are
opening something new. And thats where attendance will drop.
>To some extent, I'm forced to agree with SaxonCow. By going and spending our
>money at Disneyland, we are all giving the current regime a vote of
>confidence, whether we really mean to or not.
Thats true... but how much are we actually buying? I have done my part and
stayed away from the cheap merchandise and the plush <with the exception of the
really cool Maleficent Doll... but that was a gift>. And many other people
have been walking out with nothing. Management saw this and is now trying to
restructure its Merch dept. <Yes Paula I know you miss the old NOS shops...>.
And a lot of things discussed here are not necessarily problems as they are
"things that could be done better". We will still eat at the Plaza Inn, but we
can express that free refills would make it easier and cheeper for costumers.
The same goes with Merchandise.
>Of course, to my mind, that just means that we should all make sure to voice
>our disapproval of things we don't like every chance we get, just to sort of
>make up for that. ;o)
Same here. As long as we make it clear that we don't want Plastic Sliverware
we shouldn't get it right?
>The views expressed above, the sentiments, the ideas, the gently sloping
>walls
>around you, and even the ceilings, are made of plastics.
>
>
Al Lutz
Al wanted to quote again what Opus1guy so perceptively wrote:
> This IMHO is the problem with current management...
> they don't have the vision to see this...they come from
> the outside corporate world and bring with them their
> "new" ideas, which are really the same "old" ideas that
> everyone else is doing in business these days and which
> Walt tried to get away from.
Boy did you nail it there. I like to use the example of Cotton Candy: the
park never used to sell it because it was sticky, and created additional
problems in maintaining things. Walt also was apparently concerned about
the carny aspect it brought on, and that it was to him a poor value for his
visitors. Then Paul's minions got the brilliant idea they could make oodles
of money, since like popcorn, it's a food item that costs mere fractions of
a cent to produce, and sells for dollars. Now you can't touch a handrail
anywhere in the park on the days the machines are out in full force since
everything is so sticky.
> They don't understand what makes Disneyland unique
> (they say they do, but they don't, or are afraid to speak
> up), and that THEY should be LEARNING from what IS
> Disneyland, or they will end up having to resort to asking
> the guest to REMEMBER what WAS Disneyland, in order
> to keep up guest loyality. Last year's "Remember the
> Magic" theme at WDW made me sick. It did just this
> - remember how great it used to be! Not how great it is
> NOW! This is always a sign of weak product, when you
> have to resort to playing on past associations, and
> marketing how your product USED TO BE satisfiying.
Actually Ken, they are doing that right now locally here with the current
"Resident Salute" campaign - "Wonderful Memories, Wonderful Days." They
exhort you to come back to this wonderful park - utilizing footage from long
gone attractions. I guess it's hard to show Paul's vision of Disneyland
[Outdoor vending carts, shops full of plush, a closing time parking lot tram
mess that folks compare to the last 90 minutes of "Titanic"] and get people
excited about it.
> If Disney were smart, they would relearn the orignal
> Disneyland phlosophy, cut overhead, and redirect
> monies to keep the Park fresh and new. If you build it,
> they will come! And you won't have to spend 10's of
> millions on advertising some black and white home
> movies of how it used to be, in order to keep attendance
> up!
But that would make sense wouldn't it? And lately everything [from
procedures to park traditions they've spent so long in learning /
establishing is being thrown out the window because "other parks don't
bother, why should we?"
WHY aren't these folks toiling at Six Flags where they belong? Sigh...
SolZePP
LIVER-
While you are predicting next year's crowds, could you tell me what the
weather will be like May 3,4, & 5 , 1999?
Mrliver1
sol...@aol.com (SolZePP) writes:
>While you are predicting next year's crowds, could you tell me what the
>weather will be like May 3,4, & 5 , 1999?
Gee now it seems like your only doing this to piss me off... oh well.. let me
explain it to you, you sick little man.
I was PREDICTING what I though attendance will be. If even that. I remember
saying "lets wait and see". I guess you didn't read that part before you hit
the reply button.
Going with that logic of course I can predict what the weather will be like.
HOT in the mid 80's with lows in the 60's.
SolZePP
Liver-
Not trying to piss you off, just constantly making myself laugh. Consider
it one of the more than fifty ways to lover your liver.
P.S. now your diagnosing people, you said I was sick. Funny, only feel slightly
ill when I read your posts. Advice: Don't read your posts. : )
Rheterik
Mr. Liver wrote:
>You have the attendace figures for next year already? WOW (o;
Now, now. I thought we were talking about the last few years since Pressler
took over. As in, if people walked away disappointed in 1995, they wouldn't
come back in '96.
>My point was come next year, there will be no major new draw.
>This is the first time that Disneyland hasn't had a summer draw
>since Pressler and his "streamlining" took effect. [snip, snip] IT
>will like I said, be interesting to see if people will still pay that
>premium price to see something they saw last year.
So your point is that it's really the price hikes that will keep people away
(in light of no new draw)? That seems like a reasonable enough argument to me.
Still, attendence would probably drop without a new draw regardless of who was
running things. So how will we be able to tell whether or not this actually has
anything to do with *Pressler's* policies (beyond not arranging for a "draw")?
>>By going and spending our money at Disneyland, we are all
>>giving the current regime a vote of confidence, whether we
>>really mean to or not.
>Thats true... but how much are we actually buying?
Good point. I personally am spending more at the park than I ever have before,
simply because I'm going there a lot more (I only recently got my first AP).
But would I spend more if there were more to spend *on*? Probably.
Just for the record: I'm sure that Disneyland will, in fact, come up with
*something* they can market in 1999. After all, these are the same people that
managed to sell taking something away (MSEP) as a reason to go. ;o)
See you at the park! :o)
Rheterik
Mrliver1
rya...@cwnet.com
opus...@aol.com (Opus1guy) wrote:
<snip to cut to chase>
> They don't
> understand what makes Disneyland unique (they say they do, but they don't,
or
> are afraid to speak up), and that THEY should be LEARNING from what IS
> Disneyland, or they will end up having to resort to asking the guest to
> REMEMBER what WAS Disneyland, in order to keep up guest loyality. Last
year's
> "Remember the Magic" theme at WDW made me sick. It did just this - remember
> how great it used to be! Not how great it is NOW!
Ah, so somebody else noticed this! I picked up on that right away. I saw those
WDW commercials and thought, "You know, they must really be desperate." Listen
to that lyric: "I remember how it used to be." When I was growing up, all the
DL commercials and TV specials touted their great plans for the future. The
New Fantasyland, Splash Mountain, Star Tours. Now they have to remind us how
great it *was.*
Look at their movies last year. Almost all remakes and sequels. Same idea,
remake the past and don't bother being creative. That's when I really began to
think they were out of ideas and creatively dry.
Then buy up a lot of non-Disney businesses to make up for the cash flow lost
by the lack of creativity. This turns off the purists, which results in more
revenue lost, which forces you to buy more non-Disney businesses...
Masselin
who hopes somebody will break the cycle soon--and it won't be Da Plushman
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
DanS3
In article <199803242212...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, opus...@aol.com
(Opus1guy) writes:
<snip>
> This IMHO is the problem with current management... they don't
> have the vision to see this...they come from the outside corporate
> world and bring with them their "new" ideas, which are really the
> same "old" ideas that everyone else is doing in business these
> days and which Walt tried to get away from. They don't
> understand what makes Disneyland unique (they say they do,
> but they don't, or are afraid to speak up), and that THEY should
> be LEARNING from what IS Disneyland, or they will end up
> having to resort to asking the guest to REMEMBER what WAS
> Disneyland, in order to keep up guest loyality. Last year's
> "Remember the Magic" theme at WDW made me sick. It did
> just this - remember how great it used to be! Not how great it is
> NOW! This is always a sign of weak product, when you have to
> resort to playing on past associations, and marketing how your
> product USED TO BE satisfiying. If Disney were smart, they
> would relearn the orignal Disneyland phlosophy, cut overhead,
> and redirect monies to keep the Park fresh and new. If you build
> it, they will come! And you won't have to spend 10's of millions
> on advertising some black and white home movies of how it used
> to be, in order to keep attendance up!
>
>Ken Witworth
Amen, Ken! This is exactly the same thing I've been thinking lately.
I'd bet that the "old time" Disney managers who were jettisoned
recently were forced out becuase the protested the "new guard"
managers' brilliant ideas - which were likely the same old ideas (but
with fancy new buzzwords) that Disney himself probably rejected 40
years ago. The long-time managers probably recognized these
ideas for what they were, protested, and were thereby labelled
"obstructionists" by the new people. And they were jettisoned to
get them out of the way.
Just a theory, mind you. But it *is* the kind of thing that happens in
many, many other companies....
Dan Steinberg
(Don't worry...Everything's under control!)
Anonymous
> > understand what makes Disneyland unique (they say they do, but they don't,
> or
> > are afraid to speak up), and that THEY should be LEARNING from what IS
> > Disneyland, or they will end up having to resort to asking the guest to
> > REMEMBER what WAS Disneyland, in order to keep up guest loyality. Last
> year's
> > "Remember the Magic" theme at WDW made me sick. It did just this - remember
> > how great it used to be! Not how great it is NOW!
>
> WDW commercials and thought, "You know, they must really be desperate." Listen
> to that lyric: "I remember how it used to be." When I was growing up, all the
> DL commercials and TV specials touted their great plans for the future. The
> New Fantasyland, Splash Mountain, Star Tours. Now they have to remind us how
> great it *was.*
> Look at their movies last year. Almost all remakes and sequels. Same idea,
> remake the past and don't bother being creative. That's when I really began to
> think they were out of ideas and creatively dry.
> Then buy up a lot of non-Disney businesses to make up for the cash flow lost
> by the lack of creativity. This turns off the purists, which results in more
> revenue lost, which forces you to buy more non-Disney businesses...
>
> Masselin
----
I believe that a LOT of the reason that they focus on the past and
sequils instead of creating anything new is because it costs MONEY to
develop new ideas.
CS
Jack Danger
Dan S.
If you haven't noticed, from playing devils advocate to voicing my own
opinions, I am never at a lost for words. I have been associated off
and on with Disney for almost two decades and everything that I am
about to say is my personal opinion from experience. Right or wrong,
these are my observations and perspective; I am certainly not looking
for a public debate.
The career executives that were responsible for creating the magic
that we have come to know as Disneyland started retiring in the
mid-seventies and most were gone by the early-eighties. The "old
guard" that is currently being pushed into early retirement is
responsible for the majority of the problems that exist in the park
today. While many have had long careers with Disneyland, these are
not the men that pushed Disneyland to achieve excellence.
It's ironic that these men are finally being forced out, after
thousands of talented people left Disneyland in the early eighties
because of their poor decisions. While Paul Pressler may trigger a
bad response from this news group, he was sent to Disneyland to clean
house. I hope the people that replaces the "pseudo old gaurd" returns
Disneyland to its glory days.
Remember that Disneyland once had the second best educated workforce
in America (surpased only kodak) These men did not view its employees
as valuable assets and ignored the traditions that made Disneyland
successful and won our hearts.
>On 26 Mar 1998 19:40:10 GMT, da...@aol.com (DanS3) wrote:
>In article <199803242212...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, opus...@aol.com
>(Opus1guy) writes:
>
><snip>
>> This IMHO is the problem with current management... they don't
>> have the vision to see this...they come from the outside corporate
>> world and bring with them their "new" ideas, which are really the
>> same "old" ideas that everyone else is doing in business these
>> days and which Walt tried to get away from. They don't
>> understand what makes Disneyland unique (they say they do,
>> but they don't, or are afraid to speak up), and that THEY should
>> be LEARNING from what IS Disneyland, or they will end up
>> having to resort to asking the guest to REMEMBER what WAS
>> Disneyland, in order to keep up guest loyality. Last year's
>> "Remember the Magic" theme at WDW made me sick. It did
>> just this - remember how great it used to be! Not how great it is
Al Lutz
Jack Danger wrote
> Remember that Disneyland once had the
> second best educated workforce in America
> (surpased only kodak) These men did not view
> its employees as valuable assets and ignored
> the traditions that made Disneyland successful
> and won our hearts.
I don't know about this. Especially with Pressler's latest hiring
innovation. They are getting so short-handed now [as I understand it] that
basically if a Supervisor dosen't show up for an interview, the person gets
automatically hired on the spot. Right?
So as I understand this, now people who run the attractions and such show up
and get whole new crews they had no hand in selecting or even know about?
Correct me if I'm wrong here Jack. How this is "progress" I am a little
confused about.
DanS3
In article <351be3af...@news.inreach.com>, dan...@inreach.com (Jack
Danger) writes:
>Dan S.
"You talkin' to me? Are *you* talkin' to *me*?..."
> If you haven't noticed, from playing devils advocate to voicing
> my own opinions, I am never at a lost for words. I have been
> associated off and on with Disney for almost two decades and
> everything that I am about to say is my personal opinion from
> experience. Right or wrong, these are my observations and
> perspective; I am certainly not looking for a public debate.
Okay. I don't doubt your sincerity or your conviction in your
beliefs. But I come from the disadvantage (or perhaps the benefit)
of being outside the organization, so I have to judge everyone on
the actions I see them take. And, frankly, from my vantage point,
I just don't necessarily see that the actions match up with what
you're saying.
> The career executives that were responsible for creating the
> magic that we have come to know as Disneyland started
> retiring in the mid-seventies and most were gone by the early-
> eighties. The "old guard" that is currently being pushed into
> early retirement is responsible for the majority of the problems
> that exist in the park today. While many have had long
> careers with Disneyland, these are not the men that pushed
> Disneyland to achieve excellence.
I think I understand you here. The people running Disneyland in
the 80's were not the ones who built and rapidly grew the park,
but acted more like "custodians" of the treasure. They did not
do everything as well as they could have, but I'm not sure what
you think they did actually wrong - the only thing I can fault them
for is maybe not moving fast enough to keep the park growing
and fresh. Then again, maybe not. They did ToonTown and
Splash Mountain and got started on Indy, after all. But also
hey didn't ever get a sorely needed New Tomorrowland or the
"second gate" off the ground.
On the other hand, they at least kept what they had clean and in
working order. We didn't see then the things we do today - the
busted birds and tikis in the Tiki Room, the faded and peeling
paint, the rust and neglect in places. And the park was profitable
when these guys were running things, right? So I don't really see
the horrible things these guys did. At worst, maybe the guys in
the 80's were overly cautious in making changes, but at least they
didn't ruin the place or make the fiascos that the current
management team seems to make on a fairly regular basis today.
> It's ironic that these men are finally being forced out, after
> thousands of talented people left Disneyland in the early
> eighties because of their poor decisions.
I can't speak about that - I don't know anything about it. Was
it a middle management exodus, or was it the front-line workers
who left? I ask this, because we've seen a lot of the most senior
front-line workers leave recently after the eliminate of the leads. I
don't think that's a very good thing to have happen at the park.
> While Paul Pressler may trigger a bad response from this news
> group, he was sent to Disneyland to clean house.
Yes, but what exactly does that mean? There is a literally endless
list of reasons why they might want to clean the "old guard" out,
anything from political reasons to the aforementioned lack of timely
expansion to perhaps having mooned Eisner when he was having a
bad day.
On the other hand, from my limited business experience, the only
mass purges in senior management that I've seen have been
caused by either major political disagreement with the big boss or,
usually, unacceptible financial performance.
So I've got to wonder, after seeing the extreme profit-centered
mentality of the Pressler regime so far, were the "old guard" canned
because they weren't profitable *enough*? Was Pressler brought in
to "clean house" and get the financial performance up to snuff?
Seems likely to me, because I can't see what else was that seriously
wrong. But remember that DL *was* profitable before Pressler, so in
this case his goal would have to be to make it even *more* profitable.
> I hope the people that replaces the "pseudo old gaurd" returns
> Disneyland to its glory days.
I wouldn't count on that, Jack. Look at the people that Paul
Pressler has brought in so far: Ann Dale, who obviously doesn't
understand merchandising at the park, and Mike Berry, who has
an unnatural fixation with plastic cutlery and can't tell a buffeteria
from a fast-food place? And yet the two Mikes, Maines and
Davis, produce a $0 million fiasco but remain in Entertainment -
aren't they part of that "pseudo old guard"? Anyway, I don't see a
Walt, a Marc Davis, a Van France, a John Hench, or a Dick Irvine
in the lot of them. Or even the whole bunch combined.
> Remember that Disneyland once had the second best
> educated workforce in America (surpased only kodak) These
> men did not view its employees as valuable assets and ignored
> the traditions that made Disneyland successful and won our
> hearts.
And, from what I can tell, Pressler's management team is
accelerating that process. They eliminated the Leads, basically
demoting some of their best and most senior employers. Why?
To save a few bucks, that's all. They're outsourcing some of the
functions like custodial to save money, for heaven's sake - Walt
himself tried some outsourcing and *rejected* it because he
couldn't get the loyalty and level of quality he needed. I've had
people tell me this is same way Pressler treated employees at
the Disney Stores - pay 'em minimum wage, don't let 'em work
full time to save having to pay them benefits, and basically treat
them as disposable and replacable. To have the most educated
workforce - Paul doesn't seem to get the reason for that one, Jack.
Now, if Paul Pressler wants to get Disneyland back to "the
traditions that made Disneyland successful and won our hearts",
he needs to do a few things to get there:
1) Reemphasize the traditional core values that made Disneyland
what is. But with all his talk of "product", Paul has shown that he
doesn't seem to even understand what those core values were.
2) Hire a team that either already understands the Disney Way
of doing things (i.e., hire from inside the company), or intensively
train them to understand it. But Pressler seems intent on hiring
management from outside DL who don't understand what DL is all
about, and at the lower levels, hiring whoever works the cheapest.
Training? Ha! That's a waste of money for a disposable workforce.
3) Push to be the best thing *possible*, and always continue
inproving - not because the competition is forcing you to, but
because that's the way to become great. But all we seem to
see is the "it's good enough for who it's for" attitude (which, by
the way, as a customer I find insulting) - it's written all over the
shortcuts taken in the New Tomorrowland and DCA. Paul just
doesn't get it here, either.
No, Jack, unless Paul Pressler has some kind of religious
experience or radical change of mind, I can't see him leading
Disneyland out of the great desert and into the new renaissance.
I'm not trying to be cruel to Pressler, but longer his team is in
charge, the more clear it becomes to me that they just aren't
the right team for the job.
Dan Steinberg
(Don't worry...Everything is under control!)
Jack Danger
DanS3-
Prior to the opening of TDL, Disneyland was operated like a family
business. Management and hourly cast members had a very positive
relationship and would work hard together to give guests the best
possible show. TDL forced Disneyland to write complex job
descriptions and operation manuals -- Disneyland started suffering
from the "that's not my job syndrome." This innocent act, started a
tidal wave that swelled number of salaried employees over the next 15
years. (I wish I had access to the number of salaried employees in
1980 and the number today)
At the same time, management got the idea that no one should be able
to make a career out of operating rides at Disneyland. This change in
philosophy, is the cause of every problem you mentioned about the
Disneyland. First the over qualified and paid hourly cast members
began a mass exodus from the park. They were replaced with a less
educated hourly employee. This in turn, caused the best managers and
supervisors to leave the park. By the late 1980's, The majority
Disneyland's hourly cast members and their supervisors were new.
The problem is all of the knowledge that was past down from one
generation to the next was lost. Because the turn over rate is high,
each year a little more attention to detail is lost and the park
becomes a little more dirty. Needless to say by the early 90's,
employee morale was down and guest complaints were up.
Paul Pressler, the Disney Store's golden boy was brought in to solve
the problems. (which is a near impossible task for anyone) Just
because I said he was brought in to fix the problems -- does not mean
that he has made Disneyland a better place. In a lot of ways,
Disneyland is even worse. But he is fighting the "old guard" that is
responsible for the chain of events that has put Disneyland in the
mess that it is today. While it sounds like I am defending him, I am
not -- I am just aware of the obstacles that anyone in that position
faces.
-JD
Above is just a brief and over simplified explanation of the events
that are responsible for Disneyland's current conditions.
Lt. D'Amato [Andrew Rich]
In article <6fg460$i...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, alweho...@aol.com
says...
> Jack Danger wrote
> > Remember that Disneyland once had the
> > second best educated workforce in America
> > (surpased only kodak) These men did not view
> > its employees as valuable assets and ignored
> > the traditions that made Disneyland successful
> > and won our hearts.
>
> innovation. They are getting so short-handed now [as I understand it] that
> basically if a Supervisor dosen't show up for an interview, the person gets
> automatically hired on the spot. Right?
Waitasecond, if they DON'T show up, they DO get HIRED? So I could call
up "that way cool big yellow building" and schedule an interview for a
supervisor position, blow it off, and report to work the next day?
> So as I understand this, now people who run the attractions and such show up
> and get whole new crews they had no hand in selecting or even know about?
I think PP's been sniffing a little too much Pixie Dust.
chrisandbill
Lt. D'Amato [Andrew Rich] wrote:
>
> In article <6fg460$i...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, alweho...@aol.com
> says...
> > Jack Danger wrote
> > > Remember that Disneyland once had the
> > > second best educated workforce in America
> > > (surpased only kodak) These men did not view
> > > its employees as valuable assets and ignored
> > > the traditions that made Disneyland successful
> > > and won our hearts.
> >
> > I don't know about this. Especially with Pressler's latest hiring
> > innovation. They are getting so short-handed now [as I understand it] that
> > basically if a Supervisor dosen't show up for an interview, the person gets
> > automatically hired on the spot. Right?
>
> Waitasecond, if they DON'T show up, they DO get HIRED? So I could call
> up "that way cool big yellow building" and schedule an interview for a
> supervisor position, blow it off, and report to work the next day?
>
> > So as I understand this, now people who run the attractions and such show up
> > and get whole new crews they had no hand in selecting or even know about?
>
> I think PP's been sniffing a little too much Pixie Dust.
>
I am in NO WAY taking any sides on this issue.... in all honesty I've
lost track of where this thread is/was going... BUT, I just wanted to
throw in *my* understanding of what Jack was saying before this twists
too far OT. I think what he meant was that if a person is scheduled for
an interview and no supervisor shows up to interview him/her then they
are hiring that person without making them reschedule and actually be
interviewed.
Chris
--
Chris, Bill, Melanie, Tyler, Brewer, and Cooper
;o) :-) O:) :Þ =^..^= ()..()
*correct address to chrisa...@prodigy.net before replying*