Downtown Disney and Grand Californian walk-through
Mandelbrot
Grand Californian Hotel for myself. Following are just some of my
observations:
Downtown Disney
--It feels a lot bigger and more spacious than I thought it would. It is
beautifully landscaped and feels nothing at all like a mall. It's so nice to
be able to simply walk to the Disneyland Hotel from Disneyland.
--Most locations were not open. The few that were included: Rainforest Cafe
(absolutely beautiful inside and out), Cafe Catal, La Brea Bakery, the candle
shop (Illuminations?), World of Disney, and Starabillia's. Many of the shops
looked like they may have difficulty being completed by the 12th.
--The area between House of Blues and Y Arriba Y Arriba is kind of empty.
It''ll be nice when they use the old planned Disney Quest site for something.
--The theater complex is installing vines on the roof of the domed entrance
which should complement the Rainforest Cafe nicely.
--There were more CM's walking through DtD than tourists. They seemed to be
equally impressed with the place. As well they should. It's great.
Grand Californian
I entered the hotel through its very nicely themed Downtown Disney entrance.
You first enter a courtyard where the monorail passes overhead and then come to
glass doors which lead to the interior of the hotel.
Wow. This place is incredible. If God is in the details then He lives at the
Grand Californian Hotel. When I entered the cavernous lobby (I think they call
it The Great Hall) I just had to stop and marvel at the sheer beauty and
majesty of the space. I think it's six stories high. Very few people were
around but the gentleman at the grand piano played his heart out. I ascended
the grand staircase to the second and then the third levels. I perched at the
end of the Great Room overlooking the immense (and burning) fireplace and just
soaked in the atmosphere a bit. There was nobody else in sight except for the
pianist. It was a nice moment that I will probably never have again as, when
word gets out, this place will be immensely popular.
I wandered back down the staicase to ground level to check out the rest of the
hotel. To get to the restaurants you have go outside into the courtyard where
the pools are located. The Storytellers Cafe looks great and I nearly decided
to eat there when I saw it was open. Napa Rose was closed but looks to be the
nicest restaurant in the whole resort. The DCA entrance is between these
restaurants. Also in this area are the three pools, the very large exercise
room, and the game room. Unfortunately, and I'm hoping this will be remedied,
Paradise Pier really intrudes on this portion of the property. The view from
both restaurants is completely dominated by PP's skyline. A few well-placed
mature trees would help out a lot.
All in all, though, I was blown away by the Grand Californian. To me, it's a
combination of the best aspects of Wilderness Lodge and the Grand Floridian --
luxurious but not pretentious. I was also struck by how intimate it is. The
grounds are quite small and even the farthest rooms from the lobby are a
comfortable walk. The CM's at the hotel also seem a cut above the CM's in the
rest of the resort. More professional-looking and courteous. Strange
uniforms, though. Some of them are wearing knickers.
As I was walking through one of the courtyards, a voice called down to me from
above. It was God! Wait, why does He sound like a woman, and what's with that
accent? I looked up to see God waving down to me from a balcony on the third
floor. Hmm... why is She wearing a maid's uniform? Oh, I guess it wan't God
after all. Damn. So why is a maid screaming at me? It turns out she got
locked in a room and was waiting on the balcony for some time for someone to
pass by. I went and told a security guard who, I assume, did something about
it. If not, then maybe OSHA will mandate that Disney install fire escapes on
all Grand Californian balconies.
Mandelbrot
(who can't wait to make GC reservations)
G. M. Watson
on LaughingPLace I spent some time studying yesterday are anything to go by,
it not only looks like a mall but an unusually bland and boring one, with
dull shops of the same kind, with the same merchandise, you see in
California malls everywhere, and buildings seemingly freshly moulded from
pastel plastic, their calculatedly-manufactured-whimsy phaser banks set on
heavy stun.
We never went to DL seeking a SoCal shopping mall experience. That's what we
went there to *escape*, dammit!!. Why was that so hard for TPTB at Disney to
grasp? If I want to go to the bloody House of Blues I'll head for West
Hollywood, thanks. Who the hell wants to arrive at the gates of DL thinking
of Dan Aykroyd??
When you were sufficiently high on DL-- after, say, 12-16 hours inside-- and
you didn't get to have the experience very often, even walking out into that
parking lot late on a cool December evening, under the weirdly glowing yet
somehow compelling nighttime skies of the LA megalopolis, could seem like a
magical experience. Some sort of lingering pixie-dust effect seemed to
follow you out through the gates. And now it's gone. You're thrust
immediately from the Magic Kingdom into the Kingdom of the Crass and the
Banal. How very Californian indeed.
I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself, but many for the loss of
that feeling of DL's magical isolation from the "real" world. That berm
operated on other levels besides the merely physical. DL used to feel like a
sacred, sheltered, isolated island floating in, yet far removed from, the
relentless crassness that is Orange County. Illusion that may have been, but
it was a comforting illusion. Now DL's become just another component of a
massive SoCal amusement park, shopping mall, luxury hotel complex and a
rejuvenated and massive vacation marketing campaign. Goddamn it all to
hell...
----------
In article <20010103030555...@ng-co1.aol.com>,
apsi...@aol.communism (Mandelbrot) wrote:
> I was in the area today so I decided to drop in and see Downtown Disney and
the
> Grand Californian Hotel for myself. Following are just some of my
> observations:
>
> Downtown Disney
>
> --It feels a lot bigger and more spacious than I thought it would. It is
> beautifully landscaped and feels nothing at all like a mall. It's so nice to
> be able to simply walk to the Disneyland Hotel from Disneyland.
>
(big snip)
Jon Nadelberg
>
> Granted, you've seen it in person and I haven't, but if the dozens of photos
> on LaughingPLace I spent some time studying yesterday are anything to go by,
> it not only looks like a mall but an unusually bland and boring one, with
> dull shops of the same kind, with the same merchandise, you see in
> California malls everywhere, and buildings seemingly freshly moulded from
> pastel plastic, their calculatedly-manufactured-whimsy phaser banks set on
> heavy stun.
>
Have you possibly considered the wisdom in holding back a
multi-paragraph screed on how awful it is until you actually go look at
it?
> We never went to DL seeking a SoCal shopping mall experience. That's what we
> went there to *escape*, dammit!!. Why was that so hard for TPTB at Disney to
> grasp? If I want to go to the bloody House of Blues I'll head for West
> Hollywood, thanks. Who the hell wants to arrive at the gates of DL thinking
> of Dan Aykroyd??
If you hadn't noticed, West Hollywood is a long drive from Anaheim.
>
> When you were sufficiently high on DL-- after, say, 12-16 hours inside-- and
> you didn't get to have the experience very often, even walking out into that
> parking lot late on a cool December evening, under the weirdly glowing yet
> somehow compelling nighttime skies of the LA megalopolis, could seem like a
> magical experience. Some sort of lingering pixie-dust effect seemed to
> follow you out through the gates. And now it's gone. You're thrust
> immediately from the Magic Kingdom into the Kingdom of the Crass and the
> Banal. How very Californian indeed.
So, you would prefer a huge expanse of fetid asphalt instead of a new
theme park, beautiful hotel, and a unique shopping and dining center?
OK. As long as you have your priorities straight. I don't think most
people would agree with you.
>
> I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself, but many for the loss of
> that feeling of DL's magical isolation from the "real" world.
A parking lot is pretty darned real, bub.
> That berm
> operated on other levels besides the merely physical.
It's still there.
> DL used to feel like a
> sacred, sheltered, isolated island floating in, yet far removed from, the
> relentless crassness that is Orange County.
A lot of people would say that Disneyland defines all that is crass in
Orange County and Los Angeles.
> Illusion that may have been, but
> it was a comforting illusion. Now DL's become just another component of a
> massive SoCal amusement park, shopping mall, luxury hotel complex and a
> rejuvenated and massive vacation marketing campaign. Goddamn it all to
> hell...
>
Actually, it's become a component of a huge resort complex.
Some people hate change, no matter what.
> ----------
> In article <20010103030555...@ng-co1.aol.com>,
> apsi...@aol.communism (Mandelbrot) wrote:
>
> > I was in the area today so I decided to drop in and see Downtown Disney and
> the
> > Grand Californian Hotel for myself. Following are just some of my
> > observations:
> >
> > Downtown Disney
> >
> > --It feels a lot bigger and more spacious than I thought it would. It is
> > beautifully landscaped and feels nothing at all like a mall. It's so nice to
> > be able to simply walk to the Disneyland Hotel from Disneyland.
> >
> (big snip)
--
See 1970s Disneyland!
http://home.pacbell.net/jonvn
Lawrence
> bland and boring one, with dull shops of the same
My 5 year old son's take from a couple days ago,
"This is like at the skate park.", referring to
The Block in Orange, a nearby mall.
> We never went to DL seeking a SoCal shopping mall
> experience. That's what we went there to *escape*,
> ... (etc.)
Do they still have that plaque inside the MK as you
walk onto Main St about leaving the world behind?
I was last there just a month ago, but wasn't looking
for it.
> I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself,
> but many for the loss of that feeling of DL's
> magical isolation from the "real" world. That berm
> operated on other levels besides the merely physical.
> DL used to feel like a sacred, sheltered, isolated
> island floating in, yet far removed from, the
> relentless crassness that is Orange County.
I remember that feeling and it did seem to carry
outside the gates. My family and I still experience that
feeling, though it certainly dissipates abruptly now.
--
"ixnay on the oopidstay"
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Davko58
> and buildings seemingly freshly moulded from
> pastel plastic, their calculatedly-manufactured-whimsy phaser banks set on
> heavy stun.
Sort of like Disneyland?
> We never went to DL seeking a SoCal shopping mall experience. That's what we
> went there to *escape*, dammit!!.
There is no mall inside Disneyland. Unless you count Main Street, which
of course has always been a mall. Does that bother you?
> Why was that so hard for TPTB at Disney to
> grasp? If I want to go to the bloody House of Blues I'll head for West
> Hollywood, thanks. Who the hell wants to arrive at the gates of DL thinking
> of Dan Aykroyd??
I don't think of Dan Ackroyd when I go to my local HOB. I'm usually
thinking of the great concert I'm about to see. I will feel the same
way when I go into the DTD HOB.
> When you were sufficiently high on DL-- after, say, 12-16 hours inside-- and
> you didn't get to have the experience very often, even walking out into that
> parking lot late on a cool December evening, under the weirdly glowing yet
> somehow compelling nighttime skies of the LA megalopolis, could seem like a
> magical experience. Some sort of lingering pixie-dust effect seemed to
> follow you out through the gates. And now it's gone. You're thrust
> immediately from the Magic Kingdom into the Kingdom of the Crass and the
> Banal. How very Californian indeed.
Let's see: a magical sea of overheated asphalt filled with thousands of
cars belching toxic fumes, or a tree lined promenade winding past some
cheesy Disney-style buildings. I'll take the cheese.
> I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself, but many for the loss of
> that feeling of DL's magical isolation from the "real" world. That berm
> operated on other levels besides the merely physical. DL used to feel like a
> sacred, sheltered, isolated island floating in, yet far removed from, the
> relentless crassness that is Orange County.
Really? Ever ridden the Monorail?
> Illusion that may have been, but
> it was a comforting illusion. Now DL's become just another component of a
> massive SoCal amusement park, shopping mall, luxury hotel complex and a
> rejuvenated and massive vacation marketing campaign. Goddamn it all to
> hell...
Is that not better than being a component of a dying, rotting, area
filled with cheap liquor stores and rundown motels? Now you can
actually take a walk in the evening, as opposed to hunkering down in
your room so you can avoid the crack whores and panhandlers. And I'm
amazed you didn't notice all the massive marketing that has been going
on for the past 45 years......
Davko58
______________________________________________________________________
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Lawrence
Davko58 <Dav...@sprintmail.DEAD.com> wrote:
> Let's see: a magical sea of overheated asphalt
> filled with thousands of cars belching toxic fumes,
> or a tree lined promenade winding past some
> cheesy Disney-style buildings. I'll take the cheese.
I understand your point, though in Disneylandpast it was
a gentler transition from one world to another IMHO.
Mandelbrot
>> Let's see: a magical sea of overheated asphalt
>> filled with thousands of cars belching toxic fumes,
>> or a tree lined promenade winding past some
>> cheesy Disney-style buildings. I'll take the cheese.
>
>I understand your point, though in Disneylandpast it was
>a gentler transition from one world to another IMHO.
>
How on earth was leaving Disneyland to enter a massive sea of asphalt and cars
"a gentler transition from one world to another"? It was always a rather
jarring experience. Now you exit Disneyland to an area just as beautiful and
pleasant as what was inside the gates. I just don't get how that could degrade
the experience.
Mandelbrot
BhRiGGa BLaZiNi
>> experience. That's what we went there to *escape*,
>> ... (etc.)
to "ESCAPE" ur miserbale fat life....sorry but even Disney cant do that.
.....BhRiGGa BLaZiNi.....
"Why you home alone, why she out with me?
Room 112, hotel balcony"
BhRiGGa BLaZiNi
>cars
>"a gentler transition from one world to another"? It was always a rather
>jarring experience. Now you exit Disneyland to an area just as beautiful and
>pleasant as what was inside the gates. I just don't get how that could
>degrade
>the experience.
>
Niether do they,the whole argument about "the magical entrance" of
disneyland is now gone is such a laod of crock to me.....the area in and
around the park never loked better than it does now.....harbor blvd,west st etc
were lookin like crap up until this expansion....say wat u want to say bout DCA
but its brought a beautiful rehab of the area...the esplanade is grogeous,u can
acutally walk from the hotel to disneyland now.....there is now something to do
after hours (clubs dancing nitelife etc).......im sick of the haterz.....fawk
ya'all.
Lawrence
apsi...@aol.communism (Mandelbrot) wrote:
> Lawrence wrote:
>
> >> Let's see: a magical sea of overheated asphalt
> >> filled with thousands of cars belching toxic fumes,
> >> or a tree lined promenade winding past some
> >> cheesy Disney-style buildings. I'll take the cheese.
> >
> >I understand your point, though in Disneylandpast it was
> >a gentler transition from one world to another IMHO.
> >
>
> How on earth was leaving Disneyland to enter a massive sea
> of asphalt and cars "a gentler transition from one world to
> another"?
Fair enough... exiting Disneylandpast into the DL lot with
others who shared the DL experience leaving DL en masse to-
gether as opposed to exiting to be confronted with another
amusement park which Disney has designed to be dis-similar
from the MK - in other words the transition was from a singular
world of fantasy to the real world as opposed to a poly-world
reality (real,DCA,DtD).
Hey, it made more sense when I posted before...
Mandelbrot
>Fair enough... exiting Disneylandpast into the DL lot with
>others who shared the DL experience leaving DL en masse to-
>gether as opposed to exiting to be confronted with another
>amusement park which Disney has designed to be dis-similar
>from the MK - in other words the transition was from a singular
>world of fantasy to the real world as opposed to a poly-world
>reality (real,DCA,DtD).
>Hey, it made more sense when I posted before...
>
I understand not liking DCA but this is REALLY reaching for something to
criticize isn't it?
Mandelbrot
EnergiFlow
>--The theater complex is installing vines on the roof of the domed entrance
>which should complement the Rainforest Cafe nicely.
As for DTD overall, I wonder when Disney will be installing the giant birds of
paradise flower structures that are depicted in artists' renderings. Even more
eye candy awaits.
>--There were more CM's walking through DtD than tourists. They seemed to be
>equally impressed with the place. As well they should. It's great.
I love the way hotel rooms sit above some of the DTD complex, and how there are
2nd-floor areas for outdoor restaurant sitting and socializing. Makes me think
of the coziness of a village where homes (of the shopkeeper for instance) sit
atop the shops below.
Unfortunately, and I'm hoping this will be
>remedied,
>Paradise Pier really intrudes on this portion of the property.
As for other intrusions, I'm happy that at least the ratty Rip Van Winkle Motel
on Katella won't be a part of the general vicinity much longer. But, darn, it
appears the Pointe Anaheim people still have plans for a nearby shopping center
on the front burner. If Disney can make their current acreage blossom and boom
with DTD and the GC Hotel, I'd be thrilled if they could extend this synergy
for several blocks around, in a uniform Disneyized manner.
Janet H.
EnergiFlow
>When you were sufficiently high on DL-- after, say, 12-16 hours inside-- and
>you didn't get to have the experience very often, even walking out into that
>parking lot late on a cool December evening, under the weirdly glowing yet
>somehow compelling nighttime skies of the LA megalopolis, could seem like a
>magical experience.
But in light of the amazing scope and scale of a WDW, or what Disney has or is
developing throughout the world, I think any nostalgia for the painfully modest
environment surrounding DL of the past is definitely rose-tinted. With time
rushing past the lethargic and passe, the DL setup became more and more
anachronistic as each year went by. The fact that DL and its immediate So Cal
theme park competitors were in the shadow of so many other American parks on a
recent list of the most popular -- in attendance -- amusement parks in the
nation struck me as one more parting shot to the status quo.
>Some sort of lingering pixie-dust effect seemed to
>follow you out through the gates. And now it's gone. You're thrust
>immediately from the Magic Kingdom into the Kingdom of the Crass and the
>Banal.
When it comes to banal, I'll give you a little when it comes to the sight of
DCA's Paradise Pier on the horizon, and certainly the ugly
exposed-scaffolding-look of its Mulholland Madness. But the new hotel and
shopping area run circles around the bleakness of DL's old asphalt parking lot,
non-landscaped perimeter fences with barbed wire on top, and dreary flourescent
lighting.
>I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself, but many for the loss of
>that feeling of DL's magical isolation from the "real" world. That berm
>operated on other levels besides the merely physical. DL used to feel like a
>sacred, sheltered, isolated island floating in, yet far removed from, the
>relentless crassness that is Orange County.
I recall on many occasions leaving the front gates of DL, in a Disneyfied mood,
only to enter the dismalness of the above-mentioned DL-asphalt-flourescent-lit
environment and thinking, oh, this is a joke---after all, visitors exiting the
MK at WDW face a heavily landscaped lakefront, and we have, what? A neon sign
(which once sat along West St) with a blinking arrow pointing to the DL Hotel!
Away with the past, long live the new.
Janet H.
MousePlanetFab
>on LaughingPLace I spent some time studying yesterday are anything to go by,
>it not only looks like a mall but an unusually bland and boring one,
I was looking at the pics on MousePlanet and it looks gorgeous, nothing like
any mall I've ever seen. Timur Galen likes to tell people that it's based on
parts of Tivoli Gardens, and I took that with a grain of salt until I was
standing inside the place a few months ago. Even with the construction going
on, I could feel that it was a wonderful mix of organic and craftsman, with
electricity thrown in.
Wait til you are standing there before you turn up your nose at something
beautiful.
Fab
The Fabulous Disney Babe at MousePlanet
http://www.mouseplanet.com
The Magic....Made Easy!
G. M. Watson
typographical error.
----------
In article <20010103172227...@ng-fe1.aol.com>,
gjw
wrote:
>The CM's at the hotel also seem a cut above the CM's in the
>rest of the resort. More professional-looking and courteous. Strange
>uniforms, though. Some of them are wearing knickers.
Somewhere in Britain right now, an Englishman or woman, unfamiliar
with American phrases, is thinking "I certainly HOPE so!"
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <3A537076...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
<jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> "G. M. Watson" wrote:
>
>
> Have you possibly considered the wisdom in holding back a
> multi-paragraph screed on how awful it is until you actually go look at
> it?
I wish I could. However, it's likely I won't be seeing it for some time-- no
plans to visit in the near future--, so I'm basing my most recent opinions
on the LaughingPlace photos, and I don't like what I see. I figured I'd get
in my two cents early on, while the issue (and the finished development) is
still new.
>
>
>> We never went to DL seeking a SoCal shopping mall experience. That's what we
>> went there to *escape*, dammit!!. Why was that so hard for TPTB at Disney to
>> grasp? If I want to go to the bloody House of Blues I'll head for West
>> Hollywood, thanks. Who the hell wants to arrive at the gates of DL thinking
>> of Dan Aykroyd??
>
>
> If you hadn't noticed, West Hollywood is a long drive from Anaheim.
Um-- well, yeah, having made that drive a few dozen times, I had. I enjoy
driving (even in LA), so much so that, when DL closed early, we often used
to drive from Anaheim to Studio City (!) to have dinner in a Thai restaurant
we quite liked. After that we'd drive down to Melrose or downtown B-Hills
and go for a stroll before heading back to Anaheim. What's your point? Mine
was that the appropriate location for the latest branch of a widely-known
nightclub chain might be something like the brassy environs of the Strip,
where the original stands, rather than at the very gates of what used to be
the world's greatest theme park-- a park that used to pride itself on
offering experiences you could find nowhere else on earth. *Those* were the
days. As much as I admire, say, Etta James, I don't want to run the risk of
hearing her-- or her audience members-- even from a distance when I'm
leaving DL late in the evening with "You Can Fly" stuck pleasantly in my
head. Some worlds just weren't meant to mix.
>
>
>>
>> When you were sufficiently high on DL-- after, say, 12-16 hours inside-- and
>> you didn't get to have the experience very often, even walking out into that
>> parking lot late on a cool December evening, under the weirdly glowing yet
>> somehow compelling nighttime skies of the LA megalopolis, could seem like a
>> magical experience. Some sort of lingering pixie-dust effect seemed to
>> follow you out through the gates. And now it's gone. You're thrust
>> immediately from the Magic Kingdom into the Kingdom of the Crass and the
>> Banal. How very Californian indeed.
>
>
> So, you would prefer a huge expanse of fetid asphalt instead of a new
> theme park, beautiful hotel, and a unique shopping and dining center?
> OK. As long as you have your priorities straight. I don't think most
> people would agree with you.
Maybe it's because (A) it was almost always well after dark when we left the
park and B) we generally stayed at motels across Harbor Boulevard and very
seldom parked in the lot that, yes, even that "fetid asphalt" held a certain
magic for us. Certainly more than any shopping center I've ever been in, and
I've been in some doozies. Twisted, I know. But that's what being a giddy,
Mouse-drunk tourist in the Southland is all about, after all... You're not
supposed to see the man behind the curtain, you know.
>
>> I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself, but many for the loss of
>> that feeling of DL's magical isolation from the "real" world.
>
>
> A parking lot is pretty darned real, bub.
Geez, at least allow me the right to wallow in romanticism...
>
>
>
>> That berm
>> operated on other levels besides the merely physical.
>
>
> It's still there.
For now.
>
>
>> DL used to feel like a
>> sacred, sheltered, isolated island floating in, yet far removed from, the
>> relentless crassness that is Orange County.
>
>
> A lot of people would say that Disneyland defines all that is crass in
> Orange County and Los Angeles.
Sure, but this is a Disneyland NG, and only an unusually agressive troll
would say anything like that in here. I hope.
>
>
>
>> Illusion that may have been, but
>> it was a comforting illusion. Now DL's become just another component of a
>> massive SoCal amusement park, shopping mall, luxury hotel complex and a
>> rejuvenated and massive vacation marketing campaign. Goddamn it all to
>> hell...
>>
>
>
> Actually, it's become a component of a huge resort complex.
You can nitpick at my occasionally shaky syntax if you want, but I think we
both said the same thing.
>
> Some people hate change, no matter what.
True; but negative change deserves hate. Positive change, OTOH, deserves
applause and support. Everything I've seen or read about the whole DCA (et.
al.) development has convinced me that its advent represents very negative
change indeed. Perhaps one day I'll see it in person and change my mind.
But somehow I doubt it.
>
>
>
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <3A53882A...@sprintmail.DEAD.com>, Davko58
<Dav...@sprintmail.DEAD.com> wrote:
> G. M. Watson wrote:
>
>> and buildings seemingly freshly moulded from
>> pastel plastic, their calculatedly-manufactured-whimsy phaser banks set on
>> heavy stun.
>
> Sort of like Disneyland?
>
Sort of, but much less sucessfully. And in DL at least some of the facades
are made of wood-- or a highly convincing facsimile.
>We never went to DL seeking a SoCal shopping mall experience. That's what we
>> went there to *escape*, dammit!!.
>
> There is no mall inside Disneyland. Unless you count Main Street, which
> of course has always been a mall. Does that bother you?
>
Not in the slightest. Main Street has long since withstood the test of time.
It's in Disneyland, for godsake! It's part of the experience! I've never
thought of it as part of a mall...it's Disnyland Main Street.
> Why was that so hard for TPTB at Disney to
>> grasp? If I want to go to the bloody House of Blues I'll head for West
>> Hollywood, thanks. Who the hell wants to arrive at the gates of DL thinking
>> of Dan Aykroyd??
>
> I don't think of Dan Ackroyd when I go to my local HOB. I'm usually
> thinking of the great concert I'm about to see. I will feel the same
> way when I go into the DTD HOB.
You should think of Aykroyd. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), he
still owns a big piece of the HOB chain. When you go your local, you're
making him a little bit richer every time you buy an overpriced beer.
>
>> When you were sufficiently high on DL-- after, say, 12-16 hours inside-- and
>> you didn't get to have the experience very often, even walking out into that
>> parking lot late on a cool December evening, under the weirdly glowing yet
>> somehow compelling nighttime skies of the LA megalopolis, could seem like a
>> magical experience. Some sort of lingering pixie-dust effect seemed to
>> follow you out through the gates. And now it's gone. You're thrust
>> immediately from the Magic Kingdom into the Kingdom of the Crass and the
>> Banal. How very Californian indeed.
>
> Let's see: a magical sea of overheated asphalt filled with thousands of
> cars belching toxic fumes, or a tree lined promenade winding past some
> cheesy Disney-style buildings. I'll take the cheese.
You should go more often around Christmas. Totally diferent experience. And
certainly not "overheated". It gets dark at 4 PM and the park seems even
more---yes--- magical.
>
>> I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself, but many for the loss of
>> that feeling of DL's magical isolation from the "real" world. That berm
>> operated on other levels besides the merely physical. DL used to feel like a
>> sacred, sheltered, isolated island floating in, yet far removed from, the
>> relentless crassness that is Orange County.
>
> Really? Ever ridden the Monorail?
Uh... yeah. Your point is...?
>
>> Illusion that may have been, but
>> it was a comforting illusion. Now DL's become just another component of a
>> massive SoCal amusement park, shopping mall, luxury hotel complex and a
>> rejuvenated and massive vacation marketing campaign. Goddamn it all to
>> hell...
>
> Is that not better than being a component of a dying, rotting, area
> filled with cheap liquor stores and rundown motels? Now you can
> actually take a walk in the evening, as opposed to hunkering down in
> your room so you can avoid the crack whores and panhandlers.
We never spent evenings in Anaheim when DL wasn't open late. Why the hell
would anyone voluntarily spend an evening in the Penny Sleeper Inn?? (Luxury
travellers we weren't.) LA has such an incredible amount of activities to
offer. We'd typically leave DL, head back to the motel, change clothes, and
hit the Santa Ana into town in search of dinner and some shopping (*not* in
a mall), whether of the window or real varieties. Or at the very least
wander over to the DL hotel or Knott's and poke thru the shops.
However, point taken about the downscale DL environs. Unfortunately, I
remain unconvinced that an upscale shopping/restaurant complex that none of
the locals will even be allowed to enter, let alone be able to afford to
shop at, is the answer to the neighbourhood's ills either. It won't benefit
anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
there. A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
view.
>
>And I'm amazed you didn't notice all the massive marketing that has been going
> on for the past 45 years......
Oh, I've had a sneaking suspicion from time to time that something like that
might be going on...
>
> Davko58
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
G. M. Watson
all 125-- made the place (DD) look. Uninteresting shops, ersatz street
furniture, safe, unchallenging, reassuring buildings that mostly look they
were newly made from plastic model kits, a sameness to the color schemes--
Sorry. A mall is a mall is a mall, and it looks, to me at least, like a
mall-- an open-topped, calculatedly quirky California mall, to be sure, but
still a mall. How is it different in degree of inspiration from, say, Ports
O' Call?? Were DD not outside the gates of Disneyland, nothing I've seen of
it would motivate me to seek it out.
.
"Something beautiful"-- There is, occasionally, beauty to be found in the
urban, manmade landscape. The Piazza San Marco is beautiful. The view of the
Seine and Notre-Dame from the Quai de la Tournelle, especially at night, is
beautiful. The towers of San Gimignano are very beautiful. Cinderella's
Castle, decorated for Christmas and lit by floodlights, is beautiful. Such
beauty elevates the spirit. What is on view in those photos has nothing to
do with beauty, as I understand the term. Just marketing.
Sorry. Perhaps you just had to be there.
----------
In article <20010104012555...@ng-mb1.aol.com>,
Davko58
> > Why was that so hard for TPTB at Disney to
> >> grasp? If I want to go to the bloody House of Blues I'll head for West
> >> Hollywood, thanks. Who the hell wants to arrive at the gates of DL thinking
> >> of Dan Aykroyd??
> > I don't think of Dan Ackroyd when I go to my local HOB. I'm usually
> > thinking of the great concert I'm about to see. I will feel the same
> > way when I go into the DTD HOB.
> You should think of Aykroyd. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), he
> still owns a big piece of the HOB chain. When you go your local, you're
> making him a little bit richer every time you buy an overpriced beer.
Who cares? I'm enjoying that brain cell destroying beer while rocking
out to Phil Lesh and Friends.
> >> When you were sufficiently high on DL-- after, say, 12-16 hours inside-- and
> >> you didn't get to have the experience very often, even walking out into that
> >> parking lot late on a cool December evening, under the weirdly glowing yet
> >> somehow compelling nighttime skies of the LA megalopolis, could seem like a
> >> magical experience. Some sort of lingering pixie-dust effect seemed to
> >> follow you out through the gates. And now it's gone. You're thrust
> >> immediately from the Magic Kingdom into the Kingdom of the Crass and the
> >> Banal. How very Californian indeed.
> > Let's see: a magical sea of overheated asphalt filled with thousands of
> > cars belching toxic fumes, or a tree lined promenade winding past some
> > cheesy Disney-style buildings. I'll take the cheese.
> You should go more often around Christmas. Totally diferent experience. And
> certainly not "overheated". It gets dark at 4 PM and the park seems even
> more---yes--- magical.
Ok, it's a sea of frozen asphalt.
> >> I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself, but many for the loss of
> >> that feeling of DL's magical isolation from the "real" world. That berm
> >> operated on other levels besides the merely physical. DL used to feel like a
> >> sacred, sheltered, isolated island floating in, yet far removed from, the
> >> relentless crassness that is Orange County.
> > Really? Ever ridden the Monorail?
> Uh... yeah. Your point is...?
The readily obvious visibility of the crassness of Orange County.
> >> Illusion that may have been, but
> >> it was a comforting illusion. Now DL's become just another component of a
> >> massive SoCal amusement park, shopping mall, luxury hotel complex and a
> >> rejuvenated and massive vacation marketing campaign. Goddamn it all to
> >> hell...
> > Is that not better than being a component of a dying, rotting, area
> > filled with cheap liquor stores and rundown motels? Now you can
> > actually take a walk in the evening, as opposed to hunkering down in
> > your room so you can avoid the crack whores and panhandlers.
> We never spent evenings in Anaheim when DL wasn't open late. Why the hell
> would anyone voluntarily spend an evening in the Penny Sleeper Inn?? (Luxury
> travellers we weren't.) LA has such an incredible amount of activities to
> offer. We'd typically leave DL, head back to the motel, change clothes, and
> hit the Santa Ana into town in search of dinner and some shopping (*not* in
> a mall), whether of the window or real varieties. Or at the very least
> wander over to the DL hotel or Knott's and poke thru the shops.
The Resort is for tourists. Tourists don't want to be locked in the
rooms the minute they leave the park. It is obviously preferable for a
tourist to be able to walk around the Resort and have everything located
conveniently as opposed to driving to Santa Ana "in search" of dinner.
That's not my idea of a vacation.
I have no interest if local's like it or not, because none of this is
for them. It's for me.
> However, point taken about the downscale DL environs. Unfortunately, I
> remain unconvinced that an upscale shopping/restaurant complex that none of
> the locals will even be allowed to enter, let alone be able to afford to
> shop at, is the answer to the neighbourhood's ills either. It won't benefit
> anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
> there. A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
> view.
Again, locals don't interest me. Disneyland is for tourists.
> >And I'm amazed you didn't notice all the massive marketing that has been going
> > on for the past 45 years......
> Oh, I've had a sneaking suspicion from time to time that something like that
> might be going on...
Since day one.
Davko58
HootDad
I read this and was truly amazed. I find it incredible that someone
could wax poetic about the loss of a parking lot. I mean, I can
understand not liking DTD of DCA. Fine. I can understand the sentiment
of "Couldn't they have done something better/bigger/different" or
whatever. However, I simply can't understand anyone who feels that the
expansion is not an improvement over what was there before. Oh well, to
each his own.
I do have one question, though. Ever been to WDW? DTD there looks very
similar to DTD in DL, albeit bigger, I should think. Now, we've never
made DTD a big destination for us on our trips to WDW, but we've been
there a few times and enjoyed it quite a bit. And no, it feels nothing
like a "mall". Even the Forum Shops and CityWalk felt more mall-like,
and I like them as well.
I'll tell you what I expect it will be a lot like. I bet it will be a
lot like staying at The Boardwalk at WDW. We stayed there our last trip.
You can leave your room and stroll along the Boarwalk shops. We loved
grabbing a margarita to go and sitting on a bench, people watching. And,
of course, Epcot is a 10 minute walk away. Beats the heck out of having
to drive to go anywhere. I expect the new expansion will be a lot like
that. Of course, there is the downside of not having the big lake right
outside your hotel and all that room. OTOH, there will be 2 parks right
there at your doorstep. I agree with Davko. I don't care what the locals
want. I'm a tourist, I go to DL about once a year and I'm planning a big
trip there with my family. I'm really looking forward to it.
--
John Thompson AKA HootDad
Take a 360 panorama virtual tour of Disney Vero Beach and Disneyland
http://www.virtualescape.com/
Thompson family Web: http://www.thompsonfamilyweb.com
Lawrence
<20010103225353...@ng-ck1.aol.com>,
apsi...@aol.communism (Mandelbrot) wrote:
> I understand not liking DCA but this is REALLY
> reaching for something to criticize isn't it?
Yeah, I understand not liking DCA, too, although if
you think I'm anti-DCA you're dead wrong. At night
I can hear DL fireworks at my house. I've always
been pro-expansion and think that DCA is ok. If
you read my posts literally, you will see that I'm
not criticizing per se, rather critiquing. It is a
fact, leaving the MK is now a different experience.
It IS much better in many ways (especially appearance)
though I was lamenting the fact that it is a busier
transition now with the resort expansion.
To answer your inquiry, NO.
I
Mandelbrot
>However, point taken about the downscale DL environs. Unfortunately, I
>remain unconvinced that an upscale shopping/restaurant complex that none of
>the locals will even be allowed to enter
Locals not allowed to enter? I see now that common sense is not your compass.
> let alone be able to afford to
>shop at, is the answer to the neighbourhood's ills either.
Anaheim isn't Beverly Hills but it's not exactly Compton either. I'm sure
plenty of locals will spend plenty of money at Downtown Disney.
> It won't benefit
>anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
>there.
I suppose it should be benefitting the homeless? Or children with AIDS?
Disneyland is for TOURISTS.
>A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
>view.
You seem to have some really bitter feelings regarding the locals. Why?
Mandelbrot
Jon Nadelberg
"G. M. Watson" wrote:
>
> ----------
> In article <3A537076...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
> <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > "G. M. Watson" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Have you possibly considered the wisdom in holding back a
> > multi-paragraph screed on how awful it is until you actually go look at
> > it?
>
> I wish I could. However, it's likely I won't be seeing it for some time-- no
> plans to visit in the near future--, so I'm basing my most recent opinions
> on the LaughingPlace photos, and I don't like what I see. I figured I'd get
> in my two cents early on, while the issue (and the finished development) is
> still new.
Ok, but I suggest that having such a strong negative opinion on
something that you've never seen is not the most healthy way to go
through life.
> >
> >
> >> We never went to DL seeking a SoCal shopping mall experience. That's what we
> >> went there to *escape*, dammit!!. Why was that so hard for TPTB at Disney to
> >> grasp? If I want to go to the bloody House of Blues I'll head for West
> >> Hollywood, thanks. Who the hell wants to arrive at the gates of DL thinking
> >> of Dan Aykroyd??
> >
> >
> > If you hadn't noticed, West Hollywood is a long drive from Anaheim.
>
> What's your point?
My point is that if you are staying at Disneyland, or even simply
visiting, that if you want to go to a venue such as HOB, it is a lot
easier to walk 100 yards rather than driving 30 miles.
> Mine
> was that the appropriate location for the latest branch of a widely-known
> nightclub chain might be something like the brassy environs of the Strip,
> where the original stands, rather than at the very gates of what used to be
> the world's greatest theme park-- a park that used to pride itself on
> offering experiences you could find nowhere else on earth.
You might notice that Disneyland is still there. HOB and the other
places in DTD are for when you want to leave, or take a break during the
day. If you don't like HOB, you can do something else, instead.
Very often after a day at the park, it kind of was jarring to just walk
out and you get in your car and go home. DTD offers the chance (which
you do not need to take) of doing things and enjoying some extra time at
a resort. This will be especially good after being in the park when it
closes early during winter hours.
> *Those* were the
> days.
No. *These* are the days. Walking out of that park and seeing the
esplanade, and still being inside a resort is a terrific thing.
I realize that you would rather walk out to a giant flat asphalt plane,
but I personally would rather be able to maybe grab a bite to eat at one
of the restaurants, or catch a show or just wind down a bit. Instead of
just a bunch of parked cars being the "outer lobby," there's now this
great entertainment area. I frankly can not understand how anyone would
prefer a parking lot to entertainment. And, if you really miss the
ambiance of cars, you still do have to eventually walk to your car and
drive out. So, you're not really missing anything.
> As much as I admire, say, Etta James, I don't want to run the risk of
> hearing her-- or her audience members-- even from a distance when I'm
> leaving DL late in the evening with "You Can Fly" stuck pleasantly in my
> head.
Yes, that would be simply horrible. HORRIBLE!
> Some worlds just weren't meant to mix.
I guess that's why they put the HOB outside Disneyland, and not in it.
Although it probably would fit well in NOS.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> When you were sufficiently high on DL-- after, say, 12-16 hours inside-- and
> >> you didn't get to have the experience very often, even walking out into that
> >> parking lot late on a cool December evening, under the weirdly glowing yet
> >> somehow compelling nighttime skies of the LA megalopolis, could seem like a
> >> magical experience. Some sort of lingering pixie-dust effect seemed to
> >> follow you out through the gates. And now it's gone. You're thrust
> >> immediately from the Magic Kingdom into the Kingdom of the Crass and the
> >> Banal. How very Californian indeed.
> >
> >
> > So, you would prefer a huge expanse of fetid asphalt instead of a new
> > theme park, beautiful hotel, and a unique shopping and dining center?
> > OK. As long as you have your priorities straight. I don't think most
> > people would agree with you.
>
> Maybe it's because (A) it was almost always well after dark when we left the
> park and B) we generally stayed at motels across Harbor Boulevard and very
> seldom parked in the lot that, yes, even that "fetid asphalt" held a certain
> magic for us.
Maybe you're just nostalgic for what was and are resistant to change
because it is different, even if it is far superior to what was. I
think that's more likely.
People are always really interested in original Tomorrowland. In fact,
they even put the Moonliner back in place from it in the latest rehab.
Well, the old Tomorrowland was not very good. What replaced it was
massively better. But people still are nostalgic for it. However, at
least there were rides and a show going on there. Not a bunch of power
lines and heated cars.
> Certainly more than any shopping center I've ever been in, and
> I've been in some doozies. Twisted, I know. But that's what being a giddy,
> Mouse-drunk tourist in the Southland is all about, after all... You're not
> supposed to see the man behind the curtain, you know.
What man behind the curtain is that? The one you saw when you walked
under neat the high tension power lines? I honestly think you're just
joking about all this, it makes so little sense. You hardly even parked
there, you say, and yet you want it back. It's really pretty
ridiculous.
> >
> >> I'll shed no tears for the parking lot by itself, but many for the loss of
> >> that feeling of DL's magical isolation from the "real" world.
> >
> >
> > A parking lot is pretty darned real, bub.
>
> Geez, at least allow me the right to wallow in romanticism...
You're being romantic about a PARKING LOT. A huge and unpleasant one.
> >
> >
> >
> >> That berm
> >> operated on other levels besides the merely physical.
> >
> >
> > It's still there.
>
> For now.
So you're suggesting that they are going to go in with some steam
shovels, and rip down the berm from around the park?
> >
> >
> >> DL used to feel like a
> >> sacred, sheltered, isolated island floating in, yet far removed from, the
> >> relentless crassness that is Orange County.
> >
> >
> > A lot of people would say that Disneyland defines all that is crass in
> > Orange County and Los Angeles.
>
> Sure, but this is a Disneyland NG, and only an unusually agressive troll
> would say anything like that in here. I hope.
This new addition goes a long way to cleaning up the surrounding area.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Illusion that may have been, but
> >> it was a comforting illusion. Now DL's become just another component of a
> >> massive SoCal amusement park, shopping mall, luxury hotel complex and a
> >> rejuvenated and massive vacation marketing campaign. Goddamn it all to
> >> hell...
> >>
> >
> >
> > Actually, it's become a component of a huge resort complex.
>
> You can nitpick at my occasionally shaky syntax if you want, but I think we
> both said the same thing.
It's become far more than it was before.
> >
> > Some people hate change, no matter what.
>
> True; but negative change deserves hate.
Fortunately, the last thing this is is a negative change.
> Positive change, OTOH, deserves
> applause and support.
And exactly what would you have considered positive change? New painted
lines on the parking lot stalls?
> Everything I've seen or read about the whole DCA (et.
> al.) development has convinced me that its advent represents very negative
> change indeed.
Don't go. Everyone else will go and have a great time.
> Perhaps one day I'll see it in person and change my mind.
> But somehow I doubt it.
It's a shame that you insist on ruining a wonderful experience with this
attitude. The only person you are hurting is yourself.
Jon Nadelberg
>
>
> You should think of Aykroyd. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), he
> still owns a big piece of the HOB chain. When you go your local, you're
> making him a little bit richer every time you buy an overpriced beer.
So what? You make someone richer everytime you buy anything.
> >
> > Let's see: a magical sea of overheated asphalt filled with thousands of
> > cars belching toxic fumes, or a tree lined promenade winding past some
> > cheesy Disney-style buildings. I'll take the cheese.
>
> You should go more often around Christmas. Totally diferent experience. And
> certainly not "overheated". It gets dark at 4 PM and the park seems even
> more---yes--- magical.
I've been to Disneyland around Christmas. The parking lot is a parking
lot, and it is undecorated.
> >
> > Is that not better than being a component of a dying, rotting, area
> > filled with cheap liquor stores and rundown motels? Now you can
> > actually take a walk in the evening, as opposed to hunkering down in
> > your room so you can avoid the crack whores and panhandlers.
>
> We never spent evenings in Anaheim when DL wasn't open late.
Maybe you'll have reason to now.
> Why the hell
> would anyone voluntarily spend an evening in the Penny Sleeper Inn??
Because there was nothing else to do in the area.
> (Luxury
> travellers we weren't.)
You won't have to be, now.
> LA has such an incredible amount of activities to
> offer.
So does the area around Disneyland, now.
> We'd typically leave DL, head back to the motel, change clothes, and
> hit the Santa Ana into town in search of dinner and some shopping (*not* in
> a mall), whether of the window or real varieties. Or at the very least
> wander over to the DL hotel or Knott's and poke thru the shops.
>
So, where would you shop not in something you'd call a mall? Would you
go to Sears?
You know, I really think you're a troll. The statements you are making
are ridiculous.
> However, point taken about the downscale DL environs. Unfortunately, I
> remain unconvinced that an upscale shopping/restaurant complex that none of
> the locals will even be allowed to enter, let alone be able to afford to
> shop at, is the answer to the neighbourhood's ills either.
Who said locals would not be allowed into it? And what would you want
in there? A 7-Eleven?
> It won't benefit
> anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
> there. A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
> view.
It will benefit anyone who wants to enjoy what is offered there. You'll
be able to go to DTD and park for very cheap and have a fun evening
worth of entertainment. Valet parking, too.
I think you're comments are really bizarre, and I can't believe you
really believe what you are saying.
Mr. Liver
"G. M. Watson " <gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> wrote:
>Granted, you've seen it in person and
>I haven't, but if the dozens of photos on
>LaughingPLace I spent some time
>studying yesterday are anything to go by,
>it not only looks like a mall but an
>unusually bland and boring one, with dull
>shops of the same kind, with the same
>merchandise, you see in California malls
>everywhere, and buildings seemingly freshly
>moulded from pastel plastic, their
>calculatedly-manufactured-whimsy phaser
>banks set on heavy stun.
OK yes, I admit it, It pretty much is a mall. I'm a little baffled by the
enthusiasm people are showing toward it, or the fact that LaughingPlace
found reason enough to take over 100 pictures of the place.
Yes it does look nice. Yes it is far superior than the old travelport and
the old shops over at the hotel... well maybe not better than the monorail
cafe, but that's another story. But for all it's looks, and all it's brand
names , it's still basically a shopping complex with a theater and seemingly
one too many theme restaurants.
You know I hear over in orange they've built almost the same thing...
--
--
Mr. Liver
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.cybertime.net/~cprophet/
On AIM: Mr Liver - ICQ: 1421609
"Even the darkest night will end and the sun will rise."
Mr. Liver
"Mandelbrot" <apsi...@aol.communism> wrote:
>How on earth was leaving Disneyland to
>enter a massive sea of asphalt and cars
>"a gentler transition from one world to
>another"? It was always a rather jarring
>experience.
Oh how easily we forget.
Walking away from Disneyland used to be a sureal experience. After exiting
the gates, you had the option of waiting for the tram, or just walking out
into the parking lot, and as you walked further and further up the tree
lined, red paved, road that ran up the middle of the parking lot, the sounds
from Main Street would get fainter and fainter. If it was foggy there would
be an unnatural glow hanging over the place as Jack Wagner's old "Welcome to
the magic kingdom of disneyland" speil got ever so fainter. Depending on
what time you left, you could also occasionally hear the monorails passing
behind you. And if it was late enough, you could actually do it without
seeing another soul around you.
Seeing that parking lot empty was just as surreal. I wish I had taken a
picture.
>Now you exit Disneyland to an area just
>as beautiful and pleasant as what was
>inside the gates. I just don't get how that
>could degrade the experience.
It's out of scale.
Skyppy
<mrl...@project-insomnia.com> writes:
>Oh how easily we forget.
True enough.
>Walking away from Disneyland used to be a sureal experience. After exiting
>the gates, you had the option of waiting for the tram
Still can do this with all the pushing and shoving and complaining about how
few trams there are as in the old days. It would be nice if they put in the
little "lane" markers like they had in the old parking lot, though...
>or just walking out
>into the parking lot, and as you walked further and further up the tree
>lined, red paved, road that ran up the middle of the parking lot
for about 100 yards. If you were parked in Winnie, or in Eeyore (amidst busses
and limos) you missed the cute little red paved road and got a lungful of
exhaust instead.
Plus, you got to dodge cars from (I'm guessing here) APs and others looking for
the shortest way out of the parking lot--"Edna, I bet that entrance on Katella
that's never open can be used as an Exit!" And remember taking 45 minutes to
an hour to exit on busy summer nights?
>the sounds
>from Main Street would get fainter and fainter. If it was foggy there would
>be an unnatural glow hanging over the place as Jack Wagner's old "Welcome to
>the magic kingdom of disneyland" speil got ever so fainter. Depending on
>what time you left, you could also occasionally hear the monorails passing
>behind you.
The monorails passed on a regular, not an occasional basis, and I have a lovely
memory of getting hit with a ketchup bottle from a monorail passing overhead.
>And if it was late enough, you could actually do it without
>seeing another soul around you.
Or during the middle of the week in the afternoon--back in the days when you
could arrive, park and be inside the park inside of ten minutes. Yes, it was
convenient having a parking lot so close. But magical?
>Seeing that parking lot empty was just as surreal. I wish I had taken a
>picture.
If the parking lot was empty, the park must have been closed. Although there
was a time when I had left my car in Donald, gone to dinner with friends, and
returned to find it absolutely alone for acres--that was in the days before
they locked the parking lot.
Actually, I'm not sure that any of the "magic" or "surreal" experience needs to
be sacrificed.
You want to take a tram to your car? Do it.
You want to walk? Do that. It can be refreshing to walk along Harbor
Boulevard (in the Timon parking lot) and return to your car that way. Or, walk
through DtD and let the music and feel of the entire resort drift away behind
you. Do it at the right hour (heck, walk at any hour, based on my experience)
and you'll be nearly the only one doing so!
Enjoy the holiday decorations at the hotels (during the holidays) and let the
magic slowly slip away as you pass the surface DtD lots and proceed to the
parking structure. And remember fondly the stink of exhaust and the
frustration of having to let obnoxious drivers into YOUR lane as you zoom down
the exit ramps and directly onto the 5 freeway.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be (apologies to Simone Signoret), but there
are plenty of ways to enjoy both entering and exiting this new resort
experience.
And as much as I miss being able to do "surgical strikes" with the old parking
lot (on my lunch hour, for example), I LIKE the new arrangement (particularly
now that I can walk again).
So there.
Skyppy
Life is uncertain--eat dessert first
(Courtesy of Just Desserts in SF)
Vulcaniya
>picture.
>
Vully
Jon Nadelberg
"Mr. Liver" wrote:
>
> "G. M. Watson " <gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> wrote:
>
> >Granted, you've seen it in person and
> >I haven't, but if the dozens of photos on
> >LaughingPLace I spent some time
> >studying yesterday are anything to go by,
> >it not only looks like a mall but an
> >unusually bland and boring one, with dull
> >shops of the same kind, with the same
> >merchandise, you see in California malls
> >everywhere, and buildings seemingly freshly
> >moulded from pastel plastic, their
> >calculatedly-manufactured-whimsy phaser
> >banks set on heavy stun.
>
> OK yes, I admit it, It pretty much is a mall. I'm a little baffled by the
> enthusiasm people are showing toward it, or the fact that LaughingPlace
> found reason enough to take over 100 pictures of the place.
>
We should start calling you Marvin.
Maybe we're enthusiastic about it because it looks nice, and will
probably be a lot of fun for us to go to.
> Yes it does look nice. Yes it is far superior than the old travelport and
> the old shops over at the hotel... well maybe not better than the monorail
> cafe, but that's another story. But for all it's looks, and all it's brand
> names , it's still basically a shopping complex with a theater and seemingly
> one too many theme restaurants.
Ah yes. One too many. And you base this on what?
>
> You know I hear over in orange they've built almost the same thing...
>
Really? Will it be at the entrance of Disneyland and connected to a
beautiful brand new hotel?
Mandelbrot
>Oh how easily we forget.
Oh how pathetically we romanticize the past.
>Walking away from Disneyland used to be a sureal experience. After exiting
>the gates, you had the option of waiting for the tram, or just walking out
>into the parking lot, and as you walked further and further up the tree
>lined, red paved, road that ran up the middle of the parking lot, the sounds
>from Main Street would get fainter and fainter.
It takes real talent to wax so eloquently about a parking lot.
Congratulations.
> If it was foggy there would
>be an unnatural glow hanging over the place as Jack Wagner's old "Welcome to
>the magic kingdom of disneyland" speil got ever so fainter.
And if it was windy (a far more common occurence in Anaheim than fog) you would
have the pleasure of watching all the tailgate garbage sailing through the lot.
Ah the memories. I can still see those oil stains <sniff>.
>Depending on
>what time you left, you could also occasionally hear the monorails passing
>behind you. And if it was late enough, you could actually do it without
>seeing another soul around you.
>
This is still possible. Only now there are more trees, dammit.
>Seeing that parking lot empty was just as surreal. I wish I had taken a
>picture.
>
What is surreal about an empty parking lot in the middle of the night? It's
the epitome of reality. I can see how it would seem surreal to someone who
lived in a fantasy world, though.
>>Now you exit Disneyland to an area just
>>as beautiful and pleasant as what was
>>inside the gates. I just don't get how that
>>could degrade the experience.
>
>It's out of scale.
>
What is?
Mandelbrot
David B.
> People are always really interested in original Tomorrowland. In fact,
> they even put the Moonliner back in place from it in the latest rehab.
> Well, the old Tomorrowland was not very good. What replaced it was
> massively better. But people still are nostalgic for it.
Simply can't resist posting in response to this! <g>
First I'm much more interested in the 60's - 70's Tomorrowland then the original
one! ;-) But I know that Disneyland badly needed to update it, I don't fault them
for that, I just think it could have been done much better. DLP has a Tomorrowland
(pardon me Discoveryland) themed to late 1800's vision of the future, WDW 1920's-
30's vision of the future, I think DL should have stuck with, but greatly redone and
enhanced a 1950's -60's Jet Age vision of the future. I also think that the Jet Age
type of Tomorrowland is perfect for DL's CA location and lifestyle.
Many things did need to be changed in TL, I just wish they had done it differently.
Fortunately if they decide to go for the Jet Age look a lot of it can be done with
paint. The redone exterior of the carousel building (not the interior mind you!) is
pretty cool, mostly just the wrong colors for a mid century - Jet age feel, that
Triangular addition with the circle is cool. And if they want a metallic looking
space mountain how about silver paint for a steel or aluminum kind of look?
(although I have to admit I really did like the white) One thing they could have
copied from another project but didn't is the electronic signage on the ABC studios
in NYC, something like that would have been really cool in place of the mural's on
the Star Tours and Circlevision Buildings. RR's have some potential IF they make
them interactive via something like WDW's Buzz Lightyear attraction (Buzz has a very
Jet Age feel BTW in colors and styling) and I really do think they could have found
another way to do the RR que, and bring us a great new Circlevision show.
--
David Blood
===============================
It PAYS to use the right Internet Service!
http://www.cconet.net/members/1294
===============================
Body Shame/Respect - important information for parents and Christians
http://www.zyworld.com/gymno/
Tjames Madison
>
>"Mandelbrot" <apsi...@aol.communism> wrote:
>
>>How on earth was leaving Disneyland to
>>enter a massive sea of asphalt and cars
>>"a gentler transition from one world to
>>another"? It was always a rather jarring
>>experience.
>
>Oh how easily we forget.
>
>Walking away from Disneyland used to be a sureal experience.
That's two votes for "surreal," you and this Watson guy. Understand,
however, that most people are going to think you're being absurd on
purpose.
>After exiting the gates, you had the option of waiting for the tram, or
>just walking out into the parking lot
Crying, exhausted kids everywhere making fusses. Wondering where you left
your car. Dreading the drive back to wherever it was you came from.
Wondering how long it was going to take you to get to the freeway. Your
stomach groaning from mediocre park food, wondering if you should stop
on the way home at someplace that didn't require a down payment for
breakfast. Still trying to find your car; now you have to pee, and the
nearest bathroom is nowhere in sight or mind. Glancing nervously at the
people around you; those who don't look dead-to-the-world tired look angry
and tensed for a fight. Now you're in your car. Waiting in line with all
the other drones flowing out of the lot, knowing it will take at least 30
minutes before you can even get your car pointed toward home.
Ah, the majesty. The specialness of it all. Those damn bastards took away
my magic parking lot.
>>Now you exit Disneyland to an area just
>>as beautiful and pleasant as what was
>>inside the gates. I just don't get how that
>>could degrade the experience.
>
>It's out of scale.
By what possible measurement? Why don't you just admit it's fun for you to
hate things, and that you have no real opinions of any worth in the matter?
RoR-Alucard | http://www.pigdog.org
~Yo Soy Un Pistolero~
Paul Antonissen
apsi...@aol.communism (Mandelbrot) wrote:
> Mr. Liver wrote:
>
> >Oh how easily we forget.
>
> Oh how pathetically we romanticize the past.
>
> >Walking away from Disneyland used to be a sureal experience. After
> >exiting the gates, you had the option of waiting for the tram, or
> >just walking out into the parking lot, and as you walked further and
> >further up the tree lined, red paved, road that ran up the middle of
> >the parking lot, the sounds from Main Street would get fainter and
> >fainter.
>
> It takes real talent to wax so eloquently about a parking lot.
I guess. I miss the preferred parking, but to ramble on like this about
a parking lot is just weird. When you paint yourself into the "DCA is
evil" corner, you end up looking pretty stupid defending it.
> Congratulations.
[deletia]
> >Seeing that parking lot empty was just as surreal. I wish I had
> >taken a picture.
> >
>
> What is surreal about an empty parking lot in the middle of the
> night? It's the epitome of reality.
Or a metaphor fpr Liver's life.
> I can see how it would seem
> surreal to someone who lived in a fantasy world, though.
>
> >>Now you exit Disneyland to an area just as beautiful and pleasant
> >>as what was inside the gates. I just don't get how that could
> >>degrade the experience.
> >
> >It's out of scale.
> >
>
> What is?
>
> Mandelbrot
--
*************************************************************************
-Reverend Paul
"Son, a woman is a lot like a....a refrigerator! They're about
six feet tall, 300 pounds. They make ice, and... um.....Oh, wait
a minute. Actually, a woman is more like a beer. They smell good,
they look good, you'd step over your own mother just to get one!
But you can't stop at one. You wanna drink another woman!"
-Homer
G. M. Watson
you guys seem to have hated the DL parking lot. The overwhelming evidence of
acute emotional trauma that you've all suffered as a result of being
repeatedly forced to endure a death march across that ghastly hell-on-earth
of an asphalt wasteland is so heartrending, I can hardly read your posts
through my veil of empathetic tears. I'm astonished the bunch of you didn't
launch a class action against DL years ago for cruel and unusual punishment.
Imagine the pain you might have spared yourselves.
----------
In article <7Re56.947$5s2....@wormhole.dimensional.com>, tja...@pigdog.org
(Tjames Madison) wrote:
(big snip)
Mr. Liver
"Paul Antonissen" <zizze...@home.com> wrote:
>>It takes real talent to wax so eloquently
>>about a parking lot.
>I guess. I miss the preferred parking, but
>to ramble on like this about a parking lot
>is just weird. When you paint yourself into
>the "DCA is evil" corner, you end up
>looking pretty stupid defending it.
Ok let me get this straight:
Being negative about DCA = bad
Being positive about Disneyland Parking lot = bad
No where in my post did I say anything either way about DCA. I was simply
pointing out reasons why someone could perfer the parking lot to the current
situation. But of course because it has the potential to be negative toward
DCA, the thought police jump on it immediately to declare me a cook. No
wonder you guys have such a problem with Tulgy.
For what it's worth, I did prefer the old entrance area much better. And
yes, I am really pissed off that they removed Jack Wagner's old passport
spiel. Of course if they were smart (which we already know they're not)
they could have kept Jacks "Welcome to the magic kingdom of disneyland"
spiel and had it followed by his son doing a spiel for DCA. But I guess
they just figured the Main Street loop was just as informative.
Oh well.
G. M. Watson
express. Certainly you seem able to express these thoughts more eloquently
than me, since no one's started frothing at the mouth at your responses yet.
Touchy bunch, these guys. Thou shalt brook no criticism of the great god
Disney,I guess.
----------
In article <nN756.647$5X2.2...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>, "Mr. Liver"
<mrl...@project-insomnia.com> wrote:
Jon Nadelberg
>
> "Paul Antonissen" <zizze...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >>It takes real talent to wax so eloquently
> >>about a parking lot.
>
> >I guess. I miss the preferred parking, but
> >to ramble on like this about a parking lot
> >is just weird. When you paint yourself into
> >the "DCA is evil" corner, you end up
> >looking pretty stupid defending it.
>
> Ok let me get this straight:
>
> Being negative about DCA = bad
> Being positive about Disneyland Parking lot = bad
Oh brother. I think you must have spent a few too many nights in that
lot smelling bus exhaust.
Jon Nadelberg
>
> I don't think I've ever hated anything in my entire life as much as some of
> you guys seem to have hated the DL parking lot.
I don't think anyone hated the parking lot, but it was a PARKING LOT.
> The overwhelming evidence of
> acute emotional trauma that you've all suffered as a result of being
> repeatedly forced to endure a death march across that ghastly hell-on-earth
> of an asphalt wasteland is so heartrending, I can hardly read your posts
> through my veil of empathetic tears.
It wasn't that big a deal, but it wasn't a wonderful experience that our
children are being deprived of like you are suggesting. If you really
miss it, you can always go to costco on a busy saturday and walk to the
end and back.
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <20010104152448...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
apsi...@aol.communism (Mandelbrot) wrote:
> G.M. Watson wrote:
>
>>However, point taken about the downscale DL environs. Unfortunately, I
>>remain unconvinced that an upscale shopping/restaurant complex that none of
>>the locals will even be allowed to enter
>
> Locals not allowed to enter? I see now that common sense is not your compass.
>
To save me some writing (it's awfully late), here's a snippet from another
post in this thread:
"As has been alluded to before in this NG, DL sits almost next door to some
of the poorest and toughest neighbourhoods in OC. This does provide a handy
labor pool for DL's maintance crews and the housekeeping staff at the local
hotels and motels, but the sad fact is that most of these folks couldn't
afford to even buy a ticket to DL, let alone stay at one of the upscale
motels. You can bet that if assorted groups of poor local Hispanic or
Vietnamese families, decide to go for a leisurely stroll thru the lobby of
the Grand Californian, security will immediately go into high alert. That's
life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of modern America.
Or am I wrong? Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
neighborhood whose long-time chronic disruption they're about to increase
exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
and community centres? New computers or lunch programs in local schools,
perhaps? New medical clinics and/or storefront legal or immigration clinics?
Or whatever else? If so, I'd love to know."
>>shop at, is the answer to the neighbourhood's ills either.
>
> Anaheim isn't Beverly Hills but it's not exactly Compton either. I'm sure
> plenty of locals will spend plenty of money at Downtown Disney.
A good many locals won't be able to afford to.
>
>> It won't benefit
>>anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
>>there.
>
> I suppose it should be benefitting the homeless? Or children with AIDS?
> Disneyland is for TOURISTS.
Wouldn't hurt, but won't happen. See above comments. BTW, didn't you just
say that "plenty of locals will spend money at DD"? True, the vast majority
of visitors are tourists, but someone buys those annual passes, and it ain't
tourists. In LA, you're considered a "local" if you live less than an hour's
drive away.
>
>>A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
>>view.
>
> You seem to have some really bitter feelings regarding the locals. Why?
Again, see above. I hardly expect DL to open wide its arms/gates to the
huddled masses, but the fact remains that it is a development worth billions
that sits in the midst of serious poverty. If you have even a shred of
social conscience, it's worthwhile keeping that in mind. Sometimes all it
takes to radicalize you is watching a Hispanic chambermaid getting viciously
chewed out and verbally abused over a period of several days by her (white)
supervisor. Maybe it's just white liberal guilt talking, but it's not
something I enjoy watching, for a number of reasons. Kinda makes you a bit
bitter, indeed.
>
> Mandelbrot
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <3A54D817...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
<jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
(snips throughout)
> "G. M. Watson" wrote:
(a buncha stuff, but not the following paragraph.)
>> >
>> > Is that not better than being a component of a dying, rotting, area
>> > filled with cheap liquor stores and rundown motels? Now you can
>> > actually take a walk in the evening, as opposed to hunkering down in
>> > your room so you can avoid the crack whores and panhandlers.
>>
>> We never spent evenings in Anaheim when DL wasn't open late.
>
>
> Maybe you'll have reason to now.
I doubt it. There's far more interesting things to do and see about 30 miles
to the west.
>
>
>> Why the hell
>> would anyone voluntarily spend an evening in the Penny Sleeper Inn??
>
>
> Because there was nothing else to do in the area.
Which is why we seldom spent an evening there. Amazing what kind of freedom
a car can give you.
>
>
>> (Luxury
>> travellers we weren't.)
>
>
> You won't have to be, now.
Well, we certainly won't be staying at the Grand Californian, not without
taking out a sizable bank loan first. Keep in mind that, as Canadians,
everything south of the 49th parallel automatically costs 50% more for us
(now and for the forseeable future). But we couldn't afford it even if the
currencies were at par. You should also keep in mind that, for a Canadian
(this one, at least), the sight of a simple palm tree is a headily exotic
experience.You can extrapolate that as much as you like, and maybe you'll
begin to understand why someone like me can rhapsodize about something as
mundane as the sight of a huge California parking lot by night. It's
*somewhere else*, some place that doesn't reek of home and the boredom I
experience there.
>
>
>> LA has such an incredible amount of activities to
>> offer.
>
>
> So does the area around Disneyland, now.
Not enough to keep us down on the farm, so to speak, at least not every
night. We never went to SoCal for DL alone, tho my partner, who's been going
to DL for a lot longer than I have-- you think *I'm* a fussy purist about
DL?-- you should talk to her) would have been happy to spend seven days in a
row in the park. We also went for Santa Monica, San Diego, Santa Barbara,
B-Hills, Hollywood, the eastern Mojave, Joshua Tree, Vegas, and so much
more. Waht an astonishing variety of things to do...
>
>
>
>> We'd typically leave DL, head back to the motel, change clothes, and
>> hit the Santa Ana into town in search of dinner and some shopping (*not* in
>> a mall), whether of the window or real varieties. Or at the very least
>> wander over to the DL hotel or Knott's and poke thru the shops.
>>
>
> So, where would you shop not in something you'd call a mall? Would you
> go to Sears?
Mall shopping is one of the most mind-numbingly dull exercises I can
imagine. Unless I have a specific store to go to, I avoid malls like the
plague. I loathe their sameness. I very much prefer unique and/or
distinctive shops in which I can look for books, records, folk art, and
assorted collectibles. I also like going to esoteric movies, concerts,
museums, galleries, and celebrity cemeteries. Almost none of this is
possibile in Orange County, which, apart from harboring DL and giving the
world Tim Buckley and Michelle Pfeiffer, has little to justify its
existence, as far as I can tell. My reference to "Santa Ana" refers to the
freeway, not the town. Look, about 30 miles up the road from DL is a town
called Los Angeles. It's a fairly large town. The shopping possibilities and
cultural activities there both by day and in the evening are virtually
endless and astonishingly varied-- galleries, shops, historic
architecture... You should have a look for yourself sometime.
>
> You know, I really think you're a troll. The statements you are making
> are ridiculous.
If disagreeing with you automatically qualifies me as a troll, then I guess
I'll just retreat back under my bridge. But you do strike me as being both
curiously defensive and rather short-tempered on these topics. Tell me, do
you get invited to many parties?
>
>
>> However, point taken about the downscale DL environs. Unfortunately, I
>> remain unconvinced that an upscale shopping/restaurant complex that none of
>> the locals will even be allowed to enter, let alone be able to afford to
>> shop at, is the answer to the neighbourhood's ills either.
>
>
> Who said locals would not be allowed into it? And what would you want
> in there? A 7-Eleven?
Disney security, mostly. As has been alluded to before in this NG, DL sits
almost next door to some of the poorest and toughest neighbourhoods in OC.
This does provide a handy labor pool for DL's maintance crews and the
housekeeping staff at the local hotels and motels, but the sad fact is that
most of these folks couldn't afford to even buy a ticket to DL, let alone
stay at one of the upscale motels. You can bet that if assorted groups of
poor local Hispanic or Vietnamese families, decide to go for a leisurely
stroll thru the lobby of the Grand Californian, security will immediately go
into high alert. That's life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of
modern America.
Or am I wrong? Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
neighborhood whose chronic disruption they're about to increase
exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
and community centres? New computers or lunch programs in local schools,
perhaps? New medical clinics and/or storefront legal clinics? Or whatever
else? If so, I'd love to know about it. Really; I'd love to be proved wrong.
>
>
>
>> It won't benefit
>> anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
>> there. A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
>> view.
>
>
> It will benefit anyone who wants to enjoy what is offered there. You'll
> be able to go to DTD and park for very cheap and have a fun evening
> worth of entertainment. Valet parking, too.
>
> I think you're comments are really bizarre, and I can't believe you
> really believe what you are saying.
What's bizarre is that I'm even bothering to argue about this. You have your
opinions, I have mine, and they ain't gonna meet; and I have other things I
need to be doing rather than dicking around with this silly-assed shit for
days on end.
DaveNTx
>Again, see above. I hardly expect DL to open wide its arms/gates to the
>huddled masses, but the fact remains that it is a development worth billions
>that sits in the midst of serious poverty.
I agree that just to the west of Disneyland are a large number of appartment
buildings that may house hispanic people. But I'd hardly consider this
"serious poverty" just because non-white people live there. Non-white people
living in a neighborhood doesn't automatically mean that it goes without
saying it's a poverty situation.
I have friends who own a home just south of Katella, west of Disneyland.
Again, it's an area I'd hardly call "serious poverty". It is a nice, middle
class neighborhood of 1950's stucco homes. They are not estates, but it is a
nice, well kept neighborhood. My friends, and I'm sure their neighbors, are
looking forward to being able to occationally walk over to Downtown Disney and
enjoy what it has to offer.
Also, there are areas that surround Disneyland such as Irine, Fullerton,
Anaheim Hills, etc. that are an easy drive for locals to come and enjoy
Downtown Disney. I don't think that Downtown Disney will be elitist Mecca you
seem to think it will be.
Dave
Jon Nadelberg
>
> ----------
> In article <3A54D817...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
> <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> (snips throughout)
> > "G. M. Watson" wrote:
> (a buncha stuff, but not the following paragraph.)
> >> >
> >> > Is that not better than being a component of a dying, rotting, area
> >> > filled with cheap liquor stores and rundown motels? Now you can
> >> > actually take a walk in the evening, as opposed to hunkering down in
> >> > your room so you can avoid the crack whores and panhandlers.
> >>
> >> We never spent evenings in Anaheim when DL wasn't open late.
> >
> >
> > Maybe you'll have reason to now.
>
> I doubt it. There's far more interesting things to do and see about 30 miles
> to the west.
Your loss. Makes it less crowded for those people who would rather just
walk a few feet.
> >
> >
> >> Why the hell
> >> would anyone voluntarily spend an evening in the Penny Sleeper Inn??
> >
> >
> > Because there was nothing else to do in the area.
>
> Which is why we seldom spent an evening there. Amazing what kind of freedom
> a car can give you.
Do you not see the illogic in what you are saying?
Anyway, no one is taking away your car. If you want to drive 30, 100,
or 1000 miles after your day at the park, you can still do that.
> >
> >
> >> (Luxury
> >> travellers we weren't.)
> >
> >
> > You won't have to be, now.
> Well, we certainly won't be staying at the Grand Californian, not without
> taking out a sizable bank loan first. Keep in mind that, as Canadians,
> everything south of the 49th parallel automatically costs 50% more for us
> (now and for the forseeable future). But we couldn't afford it even if the
> currencies were at par. You should also keep in mind that, for a Canadian
> (this one, at least), the sight of a simple palm tree is a headily exotic
> experience.
As someone who was raised in California, the sight of a palm tree is not
that big a deal, either. They did not plant them there because it was
exotic. They planted them there because that's what people plant around
here. Perhaps you're bitter because you can't afford the Grand
Californian. That is a shame for you. But other people can, and it
will be nice for them. Others who may not stay at the hotel can enjoy
its other amenities. I suggest that if coming to Anaheim is going to be
so horrible for you now that there is no parking lot for you to tromp
through, that you may want to skip the place entirely. If you find car
parks so enchanting, hang out at the local grocery store parking lot,
and enjoy.
> You can extrapolate that as much as you like, and maybe you'll
> begin to understand why someone like me can rhapsodize about something as
> mundane as the sight of a huge California parking lot by night. It's
> *somewhere else*, some place that doesn't reek of home and the boredom I
> experience there.
No, I can't. It is senseless. It's a parking lot.
> >
> >
> >> LA has such an incredible amount of activities to
> >> offer.
> >
> >
> > So does the area around Disneyland, now.
>
> Not enough to keep us down on the farm, so to speak, at least not every
> night.
Then don't stay every night. It's not meant to be your entire vacation.
> We never went to SoCal for DL alone, tho my partner, who's been going
> to DL for a lot longer than I have-- you think *I'm* a fussy purist about
> DL?-- you should talk to her) would have been happy to spend seven days in a
> row in the park.
You're not a Disneyland purist. You're someone who hates any change at
all.
> We also went for Santa Monica, San Diego, Santa Barbara,
> B-Hills, Hollywood, the eastern Mojave, Joshua Tree, Vegas, and so much
> more. Waht an astonishing variety of things to do...
Yes. Having grown up here, I am aware of the things to do. And now,
there are even more things to do at one spot. Isn't that nice? More
things to do to have fun at?
> >
> >
> >
> >> We'd typically leave DL, head back to the motel, change clothes, and
> >> hit the Santa Ana into town in search of dinner and some shopping (*not* in
> >> a mall), whether of the window or real varieties. Or at the very least
> >> wander over to the DL hotel or Knott's and poke thru the shops.
> >>
> >
> > So, where would you shop not in something you'd call a mall? Would you
> > go to Sears?
>
> Mall shopping is one of the most mind-numbingly dull exercises I can
> imagine.
Then why do you describe going to Knott's or the DL Hotel malls to poke
through the shops as fun? Why are those fun, and the new shops not?
> Unless I have a specific store to go to, I avoid malls like the
> plague. I loathe their sameness.
Then you should like DTD, because it doesn't look like any mall I've
been to, nor does it have the same sorts of shops.
> I very much prefer unique and/or
> distinctive shops in which I can look for books, records, folk art, and
> assorted collectibles.
Then you should like DTD, as that is what appears to be offered there.
> I also like going to esoteric movies, concerts,
> museums, galleries, and celebrity cemeteries. Almost none of this is
> possibile in Orange County, which, apart from harboring DL and giving the
> world Tim Buckley and Michelle Pfeiffer, has little to justify its
> existence, as far as I can tell.
Then you don't really know that much about it, then, do you?
> My reference to "Santa Ana" refers to the
> freeway, not the town. Look, about 30 miles up the road from DL is a town
> called Los Angeles. It's a fairly large town. The shopping possibilities and
> cultural activities there both by day and in the evening are virtually
> endless and astonishingly varied-- galleries, shops, historic
> architecture... You should have a look for yourself sometime.
I was born there and lived there for 35 years. I kind of have an idea.
I have a vague sense that I might know a bit more about the Los Angeles
area than you do.
> >
> > You know, I really think you're a troll. The statements you are making
> > are ridiculous.
>
> If disagreeing with you automatically qualifies me as a troll, then I guess
> I'll just retreat back under my bridge.
It's one thing to disagree. It's another to wax eloquent about a
parking lot, or how about how locals "won't be allowed" into the new
area, or then go on to say how you liked to poke around in shops in
malls and then say how you hate malls, and then say how the new shopping
area, which is not even really a mall, is terrible. You are making no
sense, and putting up ridiculous arguments that I find almost impossible
any rational person would believe.
> But you do strike me as being both
> curiously defensive and rather short-tempered on these topics. Tell me, do
> you get invited to many parties?
I'm not that short-tempered. Maybe you should ask around. I'm being
rather nice to you.
> >
> >
> >> However, point taken about the downscale DL environs. Unfortunately, I
> >> remain unconvinced that an upscale shopping/restaurant complex that none of
> >> the locals will even be allowed to enter, let alone be able to afford to
> >> shop at, is the answer to the neighbourhood's ills either.
> >
> >
> > Who said locals would not be allowed into it? And what would you want
> > in there? A 7-Eleven?
>
> Disney security, mostly.
Disney security has told you locals will not be allowed into it? Then
why do they have this parking lot for the place for people to come and
just visit DTD for a couple of hours?
> As has been alluded to before in this NG, DL sits
> almost next door to some of the poorest and toughest neighbourhoods in OC.
So?
> This does provide a handy labor pool for DL's maintance crews and the
> housekeeping staff at the local hotels and motels, but the sad fact is that
> most of these folks couldn't afford to even buy a ticket to DL, let alone
> stay at one of the upscale motels.
Which motel would you be referring to?
In any case, entrance to DTD is actually free at the moment, not only
that, but Disney keeps nobody out. As long as you can pay the entrance
fee, you can go in. There is no legal right to visit the park, if you
want to go in, you pay the fee. And as a matter of fact, most of the
people who go to the park ARE locals. In Los Angeles, a local is anyone
from withing 75 miles or more.
> You can bet that if assorted groups of
> poor local Hispanic or Vietnamese families, decide to go for a leisurely
> stroll thru the lobby of the Grand Californian, security will immediately go
> into high alert. That's life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of
> modern America.
Nice bit of racism. If assorted groups of these people went through the
hotel, and did not cause any trouble, guess what? They'd probably leave
them alone. If anybody, regardless of race, went through the hotel and
caused trouble, they'd likely eject them. This was particularly
amusing. Scratch the surface of a Canuck, and you get Archie Bunker.
>
> Or am I wrong? Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
> neighborhood whose chronic disruption they're about to increase
> exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
> and community centres?
Disney has been there long before these neighborhoods sprang up. And
yes, Disney also does a lot of charitable work for the area.
> New computers or lunch programs in local schools,
> perhaps? New medical clinics and/or storefront legal clinics? Or whatever
> else? If so, I'd love to know about it. Really; I'd love to be proved wrong.
Well, you are wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> >> It won't benefit
> >> anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
> >> there. A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
> >> view.
> >
> >
> > It will benefit anyone who wants to enjoy what is offered there. You'll
> > be able to go to DTD and park for very cheap and have a fun evening
> > worth of entertainment. Valet parking, too.
> >
> > I think you're comments are really bizarre, and I can't believe you
> > really believe what you are saying.
>
> What's bizarre is that I'm even bothering to argue about this.
Yes, it is. If you hate Disneyland so much, and how awful it is to the
poor people who live near it, and how tragic it is for you to now have
to walk through a pleasant music filled area to get to your car instead
of having to walk through bus exhaust and dodge sleepy motorists in
their cars, then maybe you need to go to Six Flags or some other thing
that is unpleasant. Personally, I rather enjoy when things are improved
upon.
> You have your
> opinions, I have mine, and they ain't gonna meet; and I have other things I
> need to be doing rather than dicking around with this silly-assed shit for
> days on end.
No, they won't meet, because your opinion is based on simply hating the
place no matter what, and you are desperately grasping at any straw you
can in order to support your rather feeble arguments.
Jon Nadelberg
>
> ----------
> > plenty of locals will spend plenty of money at Downtown Disney.
>
> A good many locals won't be able to afford to.
Considering it is almost free, a lot more "locals" (a concept you don't
even really understand) will be able to go to DTD who could not afford
the parks. Aside from that, the parks were never free, and no one has
an entitlement to go.
> Again, see above. I hardly expect DL to open wide its arms/gates to the
> huddled masses, but the fact remains that it is a development worth billions
> that sits in the midst of serious poverty.
You make it sound like Bangladesh.
> If you have even a shred of
> social conscience, it's worthwhile keeping that in mind. Sometimes all it
> takes to radicalize you is watching a Hispanic chambermaid getting viciously
> chewed out and verbally abused over a period of several days by her (white)
> supervisor. Maybe it's just white liberal guilt talking, but it's not
> something I enjoy watching, for a number of reasons. Kinda makes you a bit
> bitter, indeed.
> >
This is why you are a troll. You started out defending the parking lot
because it was such a magical experience, and have now segued into this
racist crap. Your original ridiculous were undefendable, so now you've
gone on to talk about the plight of the poor brown people.
Stay in Canadia and listen to your Celine Dion records.
Vulcaniya
This is about the "parking lot" in general - it's gone, replaced, and, all in
all, it was a parking lot. But,
There used to be a Great Western motel that sat just next to the main entry
gate on Harbor. It booked itself as "closest to getting into Disneyland."
Friends and I used to stay there and always get an upper floor room that looked
out over the parking lot towards Disneyland. It was a great location for
watching fireworks from. It was also a great place to sit back and enjoy the
skyline of the Park from.
I remember gazing across that stretch of empty tarmac; it was blanketed in a
coat of morning fog, the spires of Space Mountain barely visible in the
distance - a magic land being unveiled which beckoned us on. I would gaze
across it at night after the park closed, a sea of darkness with waves of white
lines cresting evenly - and into the protected wonders of the Magic Kingdom in
the distance - the peaks of the mountains lit majestically, the spires of the
Castle reaching to be seen above the tree line, the outer side of Main Street
Station standing sentinel throughout the night.
I could walk in the morning across the parking lot and hear the Park coming to
life. The first steam locomotives sounding their whistles as they pulled into
and out of Main Street Station - the call of adventure and excitement as I
would venture into the Katella gate next to the Heidi Motel (another preferred
lodging at lower cost), the steam whistle of the Mark Twain greeting travellers
as they approached the berm throughout the day.
The sounds and sights of Disneyland were built upon in imaginations as we
crossed those hardened plains of vehicles...the cars about us didn't matter -
we were venturing through "no man's land" to get to the wonders beyond. And,
this dead sea of asphalt was as much a part of that adventure as were the
delights calling us on.
I remember watching the first monorails of morning or the last one at night
before turning myself in for the short sleep needed prior to entering the Magic
Kingdom again...how quiet the setting was - it was an extension of the Park
itself - the welcome mat which ebbed and flowed with daily life.
It was alwaysfascinating to watch the final activities of the night, the
sweepers and security making the last rounds of their duties over the empty lot
as we would talk on our balcony - the workers caring for their property and
bedding it safely down for the night.
In the morning we would enjoy the morning arrival of the "field rats" (lot
attendants) as they would stumble into their playing arena, some nursing a cup
of coffee (guaranteed to be finished before the first car entered the field)
and setting up. The processional ofvheicles as it first entered the lot in the
day, the happy families climbing out and heading for either a tram stop or the
red carpet beyond...always with the peaks and spires and visible Main Street
Station calling you on. The entry across that asphalt was a part of the
experience in those days.
Now, it's gone and has moved onto better things. We ride a tram from a urban
parking garage through a gardened road, next to a shopping and entertainment
district to a place by a grand hotel where we off load. There is no enticement
of the wonder until the actual paza before thet wo parks is reached. (just at
the end of the tram stop)
It is as if a farm boy whowas used to gazing across fields of wheat to see the
trains pass in the distance had a large city appear that obstructed that
view...that open slate of space that would intrigue and invite the imagination
to see far away places and magical realms beyond.
Oh well - time moves on.
Do I miss the old 100 acre garage? Yes and no. We have much more to share and
enjoy now. But, I feel, for myself, at least, that something more than a
parking area was lost in order for Disney to grow.
Vully
Mandelbrot
>To save me some writing (it's awfully late), here's a snippet from another
>post in this thread:
>
>"As has been alluded to before in this NG, DL sits almost next door to some
>of the poorest and toughest neighbourhoods in OC. This does provide a handy
>labor pool for DL's maintance crews and the housekeeping staff at the local
>hotels and motels, but the sad fact is that most of these folks couldn't
>afford to even buy a ticket to DL, let alone stay at one of the upscale
>motels. You can bet that if assorted groups of poor local Hispanic or
>Vietnamese families, decide to go for a leisurely stroll thru the lobby of
>the Grand Californian, security will immediately go into high alert. That's
>life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of modern America.
>
>
All conjecture and speculation. Why didn't you say who wrote it?
>Or am I wrong? Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
>neighborhood whose long-time chronic disruption they're about to increase
>exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
>and community centres?
Because Disney is not a charity?
Mandelbrot
Isn't it ironic that Alannis Morissette's "Isn't it Ironic?" isn't ironic?
Mandelbrot
>>>shop at, is the answer to the neighbourhood's ills either.
>>
>> Anaheim isn't Beverly Hills but it's not exactly Compton either. I'm sure
>> plenty of locals will spend plenty of money at Downtown Disney.
>
>A good many locals won't be able to afford to.
But a good many locals will. Your point?
>>> It won't benefit
>>>anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
>>>there.
>>
>> I suppose it should be benefitting the homeless? Or children with AIDS?
>> Disneyland is for TOURISTS.
>
>Wouldn't hurt, but won't happen.
Actually, it will. All of the proceeds from the AMC theater complex on 1/12
will go to the Pediatric AIDS foundation.
>See above comments. BTW, didn't you just
>say that "plenty of locals will spend money at DD"? True, the vast majority
>of visitors are tourists, but someone buys those annual passes, and it ain't
>tourists. In LA, you're considered a "local" if you live less than an hour's
>drive away.
How does this new definition gel with your previous statement, "Unfortunately,
I remain convinced that an upscale shopping/restaurant complex that none of the
locals will even be allowed to enter..."? Do you mean to say that nobody in LA
will be able to afford Downtown Disney?
>>>A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
>>>view.
>>
>> You seem to have some really bitter feelings regarding the locals. Why?
>
>Again, see above. I hardly expect DL to open wide its arms/gates to the
>huddled masses, but the fact remains that it is a development worth billions
>that sits in the midst of serious poverty.
The neighborhoods around Disneyland are poor but are not the ghetto. Have you
been to a real slum? Anaheim ain't it. Besides, with all the new tax revenues
Disney is generating for the city and the county, the local governments can
take action to improve the community. That's their job, not Disney's.
>If you have even a shred of
>social conscience, it's worthwhile keeping that in mind.
If you only knew.
>Sometimes all it
>takes to radicalize you is watching a Hispanic chambermaid getting viciously
>chewed out and verbally abused over a period of several days by her (white)
>supervisor. Maybe it's just white liberal guilt talking, but it's not
>something I enjoy watching, for a number of reasons. Kinda makes you a bit
>bitter, indeed.
Fine. But what can Disney do to fight socio-economic and ethnic
discrimination? Why villify them for something that is beyond their control?
Mandelbrot
Skyppy
apsi...@aol.communism (Mandelbrot) writes:
>announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
>>and community centres?
Disney did, in fact, contribute to the Downtown Community Center in Anaheim,
and the Jeffrey-Lynne area (which is what sits West of Walnut behind the d-land
hotel) has improved considerably in the past few years due to intense work by
the City of Anaheim and yes, co-operation from community groups
(including--gasp!--Disney).
But it doesn't matter. Disney critics will point out that Disney hasn't done
"enough" to help the local area no matter what their actual civic participation
is (and let us not forget the annual Disneyland Community Awards). If the
company touts their charity work they get blasted as being in it for the PR; if
they don't publicize it, they get blasted for doing nothing.
Can they do more? Undoubtedly. Do they already do more than many So Cal
companies to help the community? Yup. Disney contributes far more to Anaheim
than Boeing (another large local employer with huge real estate holdings that
are just downright ugly) but no one is claiming that Boeing is a bad corporate
citizen.
And before we point too many fingers at Disney, how many ADDers are active
volunteers in their own communities, or contribute money to local charities?
It's easy to say that "they" oughta do something when "we" as a nation do
practically nothing.
OK, rant over.
Davko58
> "As has been alluded to before in this NG, DL sits almost next door to some
> of the poorest and toughest neighbourhoods in OC. This does provide a handy
> labor pool for DL's maintance crews and the housekeeping staff at the local
> hotels and motels, but the sad fact is that most of these folks couldn't
> afford to even buy a ticket to DL, let alone stay at one of the upscale
> motels.
So what? After they work for a while they'll save up some money, move
to a nicer area, and be able to afford Disneyland. Or maybe they never
will have enough money, but they'll send their kids to college and
they'll have a much better life than Mom and Dad. It's called The
American Way.
> You can bet that if assorted groups of poor local Hispanic or
> Vietnamese families, decide to go for a leisurely stroll thru the lobby of
> the Grand Californian, security will immediately go into high alert.
Why would that happen? It doesn't happen now at the Disneyland Hotel,
Paradise Pier Hotel, or at Disneyland. Why the focus on these minority
groups?
>That's
> life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of modern America.
As opposed the Great Divide that will soon cause your country to split
into three parts. You have an entire province that wants nothing to do
with the rest of you. Now I know why.
> Or am I wrong?
Yes, you are wrong.
> Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
> neighborhood whose long-time chronic disruption they're about to increase
> exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
> and community centres? New computers or lunch programs in local schools,
> perhaps? New medical clinics and/or storefront legal or immigration clinics?
> Or whatever else? If so, I'd love to know."
Who cares? I think they do some things of that nature, but isn't it
enough to provide large numbers of jobs to an area that otherwise would
really be on hard times without Disney?
Sounds like you don't understand the beneficial social and economic
effects of working.
> > Anaheim isn't Beverly Hills but it's not exactly Compton either. I'm sure
> > plenty of locals will spend plenty of money at Downtown Disney.
> A good many locals won't be able to afford to.
A good many Canadians can't afford it either. Again, so what? I can't
afford to fly to Venice everyday for lunch.
> >> It won't benefit
> >>anyone but the tourists and the squeaky-clean kids who'll be hired to work
> >>there.
That's who it's supposed to benefit.
> > I suppose it should be benefitting the homeless? Or children with AIDS?
> > Disneyland is for TOURISTS.
> Wouldn't hurt, but won't happen. See above comments. BTW, didn't you just
> say that "plenty of locals will spend money at DD"? True, the vast majority
> of visitors are tourists, but someone buys those annual passes, and it ain't
> tourists.
It's people who live in the greater LA area. That's millions upon
millions of people.
> >>A few locals may be hired to work at tasks way out of the public
> >>view.
You are insane.
> > You seem to have some really bitter feelings regarding the locals. Why?
> Again, see above. I hardly expect DL to open wide its arms/gates to the
> huddled masses, but the fact remains that it is a development worth billions
> that sits in the midst of serious poverty.
What? Anaheim is a working class area filled with happy families
working their way up the economic ladder. It isn't the slums of Toronto
or the oppressed and poverty stricken Native villages of Canada. Why do
you think so many immigrants go to Orange County? To start their life
anew, with a chance to succeed if they work hard. They sure aren't
stampeding their way to Calgary.
> If you have even a shred of
> social conscience, it's worthwhile keeping that in mind. Sometimes all it
> takes to radicalize you is watching a Hispanic chambermaid getting viciously
> chewed out and verbally abused over a period of several days by her (white)
> supervisor.
Close all hotels, throw the maids out of work, and devise a socialist
government program to keep them alive. Great idea!
> Maybe it's just white liberal guilt talking, but it's not
> something I enjoy watching, for a number of reasons. Kinda makes you a bit
> bitter, indeed.
When do you watch these little scenes? If by some miracle you are
telling the truth and have seen a maid get chewed out, has it occurred
to you she might have deserved it?
Davko58
Dscve...@aol.com
Jon Nadelberg <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> I'm not that short-tempered. Maybe you should ask around. I'm being
> rather nice to you.
Actually, Jon is one of the nicest, most intelligent people I know.
Also, one of the weirdest, and I know some doozies.
In Los Angeles, a local is anyone
> from withing 75 miles or more.
>
Disney considers, for Press Event hotel priveliges and local rates for
the Official Disneyana Conventions, at least, a "local" to be someone
coming from within a 40-mile radius.
> > New computers or lunch programs in local schools,
> > perhaps? New medical clinics and/or storefront legal clinics? Or
whatever
> > else? If so, I'd love to know about it. Really; I'd love to be
proved wrong.
>
Disney pays taxes into the state and community, and those taxes are
used for medical clinics and legal aid for the poor, among many other
things. All businesses pay taxes, except for churches (yet).
Fab
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Skyppy
<gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> writes:
>Or am I wrong? Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
>neighborhood whose long-time chronic disruption they're about to increase
>exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
>and community centres? New computers or lunch programs in local schools,
>perhaps? New medical clinics and/or storefront legal or immigration clinics?
>Or whatever else? If so, I'd love to know.
Back onto my soapbox.
In its agreement with the City for a second gate (DCA), $5 million was
transferred from Disney coffers to the City's coffers specifically for
Neighborhood Improvement. That includes the Jeffrey-Lynne area (and Disney did
donate computers to the Jeffrey-Lynne center some years ago) as well as the
larger area surrounding the resort.
The Disneyland Community Service Awards are given each and every year (for at
least 25 years, that I personally know of) to local non-profit organizations,
including Meals on Wheels. The awards used to be broadcast on KOCE (Orange
County PBS) but I haven't seen them recently.
Disney makes its characters available for community events (such as the
downtown tree lighting ceremony and the Halloween Parade) at no cost. Yes,
this is PR for the Park, but let's face it--the children are thrilled when
MIckey & Minnie show up. And in a departure for Disney, they even had
characters in the Anaheim Halloween Parade despite the fact that Snoopy (from
KBF) was also in the parade (typically, Disney characters don't appear when
"competing" characters are around).
Disney VoluntEARs are also available on a regular basis to participate in
various community projects, but this requires no outlay on the company's
part--this is purely Cast Member (and family) participation. A number of
companies provide volunteers in that it gives them good PR without requiring
much (or any!) cash outlay on the part of the company itself.
I don't argue that Disney could be doing more than it is, but at least some of
the criteria spelled out in GM's post (community centers, lunch programs) are,
in fact, being dealt with by the company. Let's give them credit for doing
more for Anaheim than most other companies in the area.
And, have you seen the statistics for INDIVIDUAL charitable contributions?
Cash, in-kind and volunteering is at an all-time low in this country, so maybe
we should look to ourselves both for our own participation, and to bring
pressure to bear on our employers.
OK, now my rant's REALLY over...
THREEPWOOD
"Vulcaniya" <vulc...@aol.comSteamage> wrote in message
news:20010105125642...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
I for one agree with Vully, I hate the new setup... For one thing, the
parking lot is smaller now, yet there is more park space... I think they
should have built DCA where the new parking srtuctures lie today...
Mr. Liver
"DaveNTx" <dav...@aol.com> wrote:
>Also, there are areas that surround
>Disneyland such as Irine, Fullerton,
>Anaheim Hills, etc. that are an easy
>drive for locals to come and enjoy
>Downtown Disney. I don't think that
>Downtown Disney will be elitist
>Mecca you seem to think it will be.
Besides, it seemed to work for The Block and The Spectrum and the various
other malls and venus in the area.
Mr. Liver
"THREEPWOOD" <maxey...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I for one agree with Vully, I hate the new
>setup... For one thing, the parking lot is
>smaller now, yet there is more park
>space... I think they should have built DCA
>where the new parking srtuctures lie today...
I get the feeling that if Walt was still around, he wouldn't have been
afraid to level the old Disneyland Hotel and build the Grand Californian and
DownTown Disney over there.
Jon Nadelberg
>
> In article <3A55FD7A...@pacbell.net>,
> Jon Nadelberg <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > I'm not that short-tempered. Maybe you should ask around. I'm being
> > rather nice to you.
>
> Actually, Jon is one of the nicest, most intelligent people I know.
> Also, one of the weirdest, and I know some doozies.
>
You show up one time for Christmas in a rubber chicken outfit, and you
are labeled for life.
No User
> This is why you are a troll.
> Stay in Canadia and listen to your Celine Dion records.
I bet he's a weirdo and misfit too, Jon. Pack your Backstreet Boys CDs in a suitcase, fly up north and visit him for a meeting of the minds ;-).
Freaks and Losers Club of Disney
Ted Kaczynski
Al Nutz
Our motto: It takes one to know one
---
This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
It was posted with the use of anonymizing software at
http://anon.xg.nu
---
G. M. Watson
wearing asbestos clothing...)
----------
In article <20010105125642...@ng-fd1.aol.com>,
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <3A564DA3...@sprintmail.DEAD.com>, Davko58
<Dav...@sprintmail.DEAD.com> wrote:
> G. M. Watson wrote:
>
>> "As has been alluded to before in this NG, DL sits almost next door to some
>> of the poorest and toughest neighbourhoods in OC. This does provide a handy
>> labor pool for DL's maintance crews and the housekeeping staff at the local
>> hotels and motels, but the sad fact is that most of these folks couldn't
>> afford to even buy a ticket to DL, let alone stay at one of the upscale
>> motels.
>
> So what? After they work for a while they'll save up some money, move
> to a nicer area, and be able to afford Disneyland. Or maybe they never
> will have enough money, but they'll send their kids to college and
> they'll have a much better life than Mom and Dad. It's called The
> American Way.
Geez, Dubbya hasn't even taken office yet and already trickle-down economic
theory is being revived...
>
(snip)
>
>>That's life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of modern America.
>
> As opposed the Great Divide that will soon cause your country to split
> into three parts. You have an entire province that wants nothing to do
> with the rest of you. Now I know why.
Ah. Spent a lot of time lately in Quebec City hobnobbing with Jacques
Parizeau, have you? Right up on the Quebec political situation, are you?
Fluent in Joual, are you? Tell me, do you think that Bouchard will be able
to placate the more radical elements in the PQ at the upcoming convention,
or will he finally step down and make way for those who want to force
another referendum? And could this lead to the re-emergence of Parizeau,
aging though he is, as a political force in the province?
And what's this about "three parts"? Do you know something about the secret
plans of the half-dozen serious western separatists in western Canada that
the rest of us don't?
>
(snip)
>
>> Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
>> neighborhood whose long-time chronic disruption they're about to increase
>> exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
>> and community centres? New computers or lunch programs in local schools,
>> perhaps? New medical clinics and/or storefront legal or immigration clinics?
>> Or whatever else? If so, I'd love to know."
>
> Who cares? I think they do some things of that nature, but isn't it
> enough to provide large numbers of jobs to an area that otherwise would
> really be on hard times without Disney?
>
> Sounds like you don't understand the beneficial social and economic
> effects of working.
No. Working is all to the good, as long as it's at a reasonably secure job
that pays enough to pay the rent and keep the kids fed. What I do understand
is that the next four years are going to be hell for the poor in America,
whether they're working poor or unemployed. And since the federal government
is going to be increasingly opting out of its social responsibility, large
corporations like Disney are going to be under increasing pressure from all
sides to pitch in and help out any way they can.
>
>> > Anaheim isn't Beverly Hills but it's not exactly Compton either. I'm sure
>> > plenty of locals will spend plenty of money at Downtown Disney.
>
>> A good many locals won't be able to afford to.
>
> A good many Canadians can't afford it either. Again, so what? I can't
> afford to fly to Venice everyday for lunch.
True. But I can't help wondering why it's so hard for developers to
understand that there's a vast potential market out there for affordable
accomodation in tourist areas. In the hospitality industry in recent years
there has been a frenzied drive to cater to the upscale end of the market,
projects like the Grand Californian being an example. There are millions of
Americans-- and, yes, Canadians-- who'd love to go to DL and have a quality
experience at a price they can afford. By "quality" I mean not having to
stay in a fleapit. I'm not saying that the GC should have been a Motel 6--
but it's not just the wealthy who come to DL seeking something special. I
have a friend, a single mom who works part-time. She's been promising her
7-year-old daughter for three years that she'll take her to DL one day soon,
but expenses keep cropping up and the money just hasn't been there. Disney
constructing or co-developing a more affordable hotel as well as the GC
might still not be the solution for her, but at least it would be a sign
they welcome the business of people like her and her daughter. Maybe if
Disney put a hiatus on gate admission increases for a few months they'd be
in the right frame of mind to contemplate this idea.
>
(snip)
> Anaheim is a working class area filled with happy families
> working their way up the economic ladder. It isn't the slums of Toronto
The "slums of Toronto"?!? Huh??! Have you actually been to the city? Which
slums would those be? Scarborough? Richmond Hill? Markham? Granted,
Jane/Finch has had its share of problems, but that's mainly because, in that
neighborhood, city planners in the early 70's tried to adapt the American
1960s urban-renewal approach which saw block after block of run-down but
stil viable housing bulldozed and high-rise tenements put in their place. It
didn't work in Chicago and it didn't work in Toronto. That aside, got a news
flash for you: Toronto ain't exactly the South Bronx. Not even the
2001-model South Bronx. Much of Toronto, in fact,is a lot more visibly
affluent than most of Anaheim. The endemic and crippling inner-city squalor
and poverty common in all too many American cities is, thankfully, a
relatively rare thing in Canada. Our "social safety net" is a lot more
evolved than yours. Of course, it's our nasty leftist politicians that
helped to bring that about. Rotten Commies.
> or the oppressed and poverty stricken Native villages of Canada.
That oppression and poverty is why a lot of Canadian Native bands are
involved in land-claims procedures and are working hard to develop economic
self-sufficiency-- all part of their ongoing plan to gain self-determination
and start to fix the botch the Canadian government has made of their lives
and culture. It's going to take a while, but it's happening.
> Why do you think so many immigrants go to Orange County? To start their life
> anew, with a chance to succeed if they work hard. They sure aren't
> stampeding their way to Calgary.
OK, it's obvious you've either never been within 1000 miles of Calgary, or
haven't been there in many many years. Calgary, already a city of over a
million population (metro) is currently one of the fastest-growing cities in
North America. Something like 30,000-50,000 people a year are moving in,
drawn by the booming economy. And guess what: An awful lot of them are
immigrants. Canada's offshore immigrant population, mostly from East and
Southeast Asia, has grown exponentially in the past decade, especially in
Toronto,Calgary, and Vancouver (which has become popularly known as
"Hongcouver" because of the astonishing number of Hong Kong Chinese, many
quite wealthy, who've moved there in recent years).
It may come as a surprise to you, but America is no longer seen as the only
"land of opportunity" on the planet.
>
>> If you have even a shred of
>> social conscience, it's worthwhile keeping that in mind. Sometimes all it
>> takes to radicalize you is watching a Hispanic chambermaid getting viciously
>> chewed out and verbally abused over a period of several days by her (white)
>> supervisor.
>
> Close all hotels, throw the maids out of work, and devise a socialist
> government program to keep them alive. Great idea!
Come off it. Who said "close the hotels"? Who said "socialism"? Even if, by
Orange County standards, Al Gore would be considered a Maoist...
>
>> Maybe it's just white liberal guilt talking, but it's not
>> something I enjoy watching, for a number of reasons. Kinda makes you a bit
>> bitter, indeed.
>
> When do you watch these little scenes? If by some miracle you are
> telling the truth and have seen a maid get chewed out, has it occurred
> to you she might have deserved it?
Yeah, it had occurred to me. But having worked on both sides of the
supervisory equation, I can tell you that it's only an incompetent
supervisor that A) deals with staff in a tyrannical fashion; B) does so
within hearing range of customers. If you want a motivated and efficient
staff, constructive criticism and positive reinforcement gets lots better
results than acting like Mussolini.
>
> Davko58
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <20010105165954...@ng-mm1.aol.com>,
apsi...@aol.communism (Mandelbrot) wrote:
> G.M. Watson wrote:
>
>>To save me some writing (it's awfully late), here's a snippet from another
>>post in this thread:
>>
>>"As has been alluded to before in this NG, DL sits almost next door to some
>>of the poorest and toughest neighbourhoods in OC. This does provide a handy
>>labor pool for DL's maintance crews and the housekeeping staff at the local
>>hotels and motels, but the sad fact is that most of these folks couldn't
>>afford to even buy a ticket to DL, let alone stay at one of the upscale
>>motels. You can bet that if assorted groups of poor local Hispanic or
>>Vietnamese families, decide to go for a leisurely stroll thru the lobby of
>>the Grand Californian, security will immediately go into high alert. That's
>>life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of modern America.
>>
>>
>
> All conjecture and speculation. Why didn't you say who wrote it?
Um, well, because I thought it was obvious that *I* did. Sorry. I'll make it
nice and sparkling clear next time.
>
>>Or am I wrong? Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
>>neighborhood whose long-time chronic disruption they're about to increase
>>exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
>>and community centres?
>
> Because Disney is not a charity?
MIcrosoft (god knows) isn't either. But, say what you will about Bill Gates,
his Gates Foundation is currently spending a lot of time and money getting
state-of-the-art computers and Internet workstations installed in libraries
in small communiities and in inner cities around North America; many of
these communities and libraries would o/w be unable to afford them. The fact
that these computers will have the Windows OS and that Internet Exploder
will be the default Net access benefits MS, of course; but nothing comes for
free these days. And these communities benefit a lot more from these
donations than the average high school does from signing exclusive supply
deals with Pepsi or Coke. It may, of course, be calculated to help make
Gates himself look like a good guy; a cynical move meant to aid the company
in any future antitrust battle perhaps, but there you go.
I mention this only because it serves to ilustrate that corporations, if
they so choose, can help to make a difference in their communities. The
Gates Foundation is worth about $30 billion, which is even more than Michael
Eisner made in stock options last year. No one expects Disney to operate at
that level. But they could make a difference, here and there, if they so
chose. If they were to, for instance, approach the city of Anaheim and some
of the neighboring cities and said "Hi, guys, we'll help pay for a few
community centres in your rundown areas if you let us put a 30-foot statue
of Walt in front of each one", it would bring them tons of positive
publicity. Instead, they're better-known for suing daycare centers that
paint pictures of Disney characters on the walls. That's not how you get
known as a good corporate citizen.
Lillian Disney-- one single individual-- contributed $60 million toward a
new concert hall for LA. The proposal has been held up for years, but the
gesture said a lot. And Disney Inc. has a lot bigger cash flow than Lillian
did.
G. M. Watson
----------
In article <3A55FD7A...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
<jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> "G. M. Watson" wrote:
>>
>> ----------
>> In article <3A54D817...@pacbell.net>, Jon Nadelberg
>> <jo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>> (
> (much snipping)
>> Well, we certainly won't be staying at the Grand Californian, not without
>> taking out a sizable bank loan first. Keep in mind that, as Canadians,
>> everything south of the 49th parallel automatically costs 50% more for us
>> (now and for the forseeable future). But we couldn't afford it even if the
>> currencies were at par. You should also keep in mind that, for a Canadian
>> (this one, at least), the sight of a simple palm tree is a headily exotic
>> experience.
>
>
> As someone who was raised in California, the sight of a palm tree is not
> that big a deal, either. They did not plant them there because it was
> exotic. They planted them there because that's what people plant around
> here. Perhaps you're bitter because you can't afford the Grand
> Californian. That is a shame for you. But other people can, and it
> will be nice for them. Others who may not stay at the hotel can enjoy
> its other amenities. I suggest that if coming to Anaheim is going to be
> so horrible for you now that there is no parking lot for you to tromp
> through, that you may want to skip the place entirely. If you find car
> parks so enchanting, hang out at the local grocery store parking lot,
> and enjoy.
I have no idea why this argument keeps turning on your obsession with
undermining every opinion I've expressed here, even the mildest ones. At
times it gets downright bizarre. What the hell is it to you whether I find
the sight of a palm tree exotic or not? They don't grow where I live. The
sight of them gives me great pleasure and the thought of them brings back
many pleasant memories of Christmas holidays in warmer climes. If that's a
problem for your palm-satiated self (and christ only knows why it would be),
I'm terribly sorry. You're lucky to have lived in a place where they do
grow. I hope you realize that. Or are you completely jaded with a lifestyle
that doesn't include winters where the temperature doesn't rise above ten
below zero for weeks at a time?
>
>
>
>> You can extrapolate that as much as you like, and maybe you'll
>> begin to understand why someone like me can rhapsodize about something as
>> mundane as the sight of a huge California parking lot by night. It's
>> *somewhere else*, some place that doesn't reek of home and the boredom I
>> experience there.
>
>
> No, I can't. It is senseless. It's a parking lot.
You evidently have an unhealthy, near-maniacal need to denigrate parking
lots. I don't know how you can stand to travel anywhere in SoCal, with so
many of those evil asphalt expanses lying in wait to trap the unwary. Honest
to god, why are parking lots such a thing with you? I mentioned DL's purely
as an expression of an unusual form of nostalgia. You've been loudly
spluttering in indignant disbelief ever since. Let it go! *Please!*
(Fortunately, you appear to have completely missed my fond and equally
eccentric reminisce about the appearance of the LA nighttime sky...)
>> >
>> >> LA has such an incredible amount of activities to
>> >> offer.
>> >
>> >
>> > So does the area around Disneyland, now.
>>
>> Not enough to keep us down on the farm, so to speak, at least not every
>> night.
>
>
> Then don't stay every night. It's not meant to be your entire vacation.
At last we agree on something.
>
>
>> We never went to SoCal for DL alone, tho my partner, who's been going
>> to DL for a lot longer than I have-- you think *I'm* a fussy purist about
>> DL?-- you should talk to her) would have been happy to spend seven days in a
>> row in the park.
>
>
> You're not a Disneyland purist. You're someone who hates any change at
> all.
This is a tired statement on your part. I've already been thru the negative
change/positive change argument and it doesn't bear repeating.
>
>
(snip)
>> Mall shopping is one of the most mind-numbingly dull exercises I can
>> imagine.
>
>
> Then why do you describe going to Knott's or the DL Hotel malls to poke
> through the shops as fun? Why are those fun, and the new shops not?
Those were acts of low-level desperation by two people who were too tired to
drive into LA but were unwilling to spend the evening in their hotel room
watching TV. Strolling thru the shops at Knott's or the DL hotel rated
pretty low on our fun-o-meters, but at least it kept us awake and the DL
hotel shops provided a semi-Disney expereice when the park was closed (plus
they often had merchandise that the park didn't). Certainly if we were in a
similar position now, we would trundle over to DD out of curiosity/boredom,
if nothing else. I still think it looks tacky as hell, though.
>
>
(snip)
>
>> I also like going to esoteric movies, concerts,
>> museums, galleries, and celebrity cemeteries. Almost none of this is
>> possibile in Orange County, which, apart from harboring DL and giving the
>> world Tim Buckley and Michelle Pfeiffer, has little to justify its
>> existence, as far as I can tell.
>
>
> Then you don't really know that much about it, then, do you?
Oops, sorry; forgot Bomber Bob Dornan.
>
(snip)
>
> It's one thing to disagree. It's another to wax eloquent about a
> parking lot, or how about how locals "won't be allowed" into the new
> area, or then go on to say how you liked to poke around in shops in
> malls
I think I corrected this error on your part earlier.
>
>and then say how you hate malls, and then say how the new shopping
> area, which is not even really a mall, is terrible.
"Terrible"? I don't know.. "Tacky", "over-built", "contrived", and "unable
to hold a candle to Main Street" certainly do seem apropos, though.
>You are making no
> sense, and putting up ridiculous arguments that I find almost impossible
> any rational person would believe.
Yet you keep responding to them, and I keep responding to yours, so
evidently we share a similar obsession with having the last word. What say
we set our guns on the bar and walk out of the saloon by opposite doors?
>
>
>> But you do strike me as being both
>> curiously defensive and rather short-tempered on these topics. Tell me, do
>> you get invited to many parties?
>
>
> I'm not that short-tempered. Maybe you should ask around. I'm being
> rather nice to you.
Er, thanks. (Mops brow in relief)
> >
(big snip)
>
> In any case, entrance to DTD is actually free at the moment
Good God! You mean they're planning to *charge* people a fee to go
*shopping*? They really have lost their minds.
>
>
>> You can bet that if assorted groups of
>> poor local Hispanic or Vietnamese families, decide to go for a leisurely
>> stroll thru the lobby of the Grand Californian, security will immediately go
>> into high alert. That's life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of
>> modern America.
>
>
> Nice bit of racism. If assorted groups of these people went through the
> hotel, and did not cause any trouble, guess what? They'd probably leave
> them alone. If anybody, regardless of race, went through the hotel and
> caused trouble, they'd likely eject them. This was particularly
> amusing. Scratch the surface of a Canuck, and you get Archie Bunker.
This from a citizen of the country that gave the world the Ku Klux Klan...
Be that as it may, this response to my statement is so completely warped I
can only assume it's a deliberate misinterpretation. And as such is worthy
of no further commentary. And you call *me* a troll??
>
>>
>> Or am I wrong? Has Disney, wanting to put some money back into the
>> neighborhood whose chronic disruption they're about to increase
>> exponentially, announced plans to help fund construction of new libraries
>> and community centres?
>
>
> Disney has been there long before these neighborhoods sprang up. And
> yes, Disney also does a lot of charitable work for the area.
Details, please.
>
>> New computers or lunch programs in local schools,
>> perhaps? New medical clinics and/or storefront legal clinics? Or whatever
>> else? If so, I'd love to know about it. Really; I'd love to be proved wrong.
>
> Well, you are wrong.
Details, please.
>
(snip)
>> >
>> > I think you're comments are really bizarre, and I can't believe you
>> > really believe what you are saying.
>>
>> What's bizarre is that I'm even bothering to argue about this.
>
> Yes, it is. If you hate Disneyland so much, and how awful it is to the
> poor people who live near it, and how tragic it is for you to now have
> to walk through a pleasant music filled area to get to your car instead
> of having to walk through bus exhaust and dodge sleepy motorists in
> their cars, then maybe you need to go to Six Flags or some other thing
> that is unpleasant. Personally, I rather enjoy when things are improved
> upon.
Here we go again. If I don't love DL in *exactly* the same way and to the
same extent that you do, ergo, it logically follows that I must hate it. I
can't recall the last time I argued with anyone who sees the world (or at
least its denizens) in such stark black-and-white terms. I haven't said one
bloody word about Disneyland here per se. What's under discussion is the
Downtown Disney development, which, being outside the berm, is not part of
Disneyland as far as I'm concerned. I posted a statement saying I didn't
like DD's looks or its possible impact on our enjoyment of DL. Evidently at
that point I crosed a line in your own personal sand, because that's when
you went bananas and you've been sitting up in your tree howling outrage
ever since. That's how it's gone down, and even though irritating, it's been
a rather bemusing experience.
>
>
>> You have your
>> opinions, I have mine, and they ain't gonna meet; and I have other things I
>> need to be doing rather than dicking around with this silly-assed shit for
>> days on end.
>
> No, they won't meet, because your opinion is based on simply hating the
> place no matter what, and you are desperately grasping at any straw you
> can in order to support your rather feeble arguments.
I've been arguing mostly one-handed. I can't really muster the interest in
this topic or the energy to argue with both hands. Sorry. Battle fatigue,
you know. You must be disappointed. I'll try to do better next time.
>
GW
Davko58
> In article <3A564DA3...@sprintmail.DEAD.com>, Davko58
> <Dav...@sprintmail.DEAD.com> wrote:
> > G. M. Watson wrote:
> > So what? After they work for a while they'll save up some money, move
> > to a nicer area, and be able to afford Disneyland. Or maybe they never
> > will have enough money, but they'll send their kids to college and
> > they'll have a much better life than Mom and Dad. It's called The
> > American Way.
> Geez, Dubbya hasn't even taken office yet and already trickle-down economic
> theory is being revived...
Theory? BWAHAHAHA. It's the story of the whole country, you nit.
It's my family's story too.
> > As opposed the Great Divide that will soon cause your country to split
> > into three parts. You have an entire province that wants nothing to do
> > with the rest of you. Now I know why.
> Ah. Spent a lot of time lately in Quebec City hobnobbing with Jacques
> Parizeau, have you?
Yes. He showed me how to make bon bons.
> Right up on the Quebec political situation, are you?
Yes. The French hate you.
> Fluent in Joual, are you? Tell me, do you think that Bouchard will be able
> to placate the more radical elements in the PQ at the upcoming convention,
> or will he finally step down and make way for those who want to force
> another referendum? And could this lead to the re-emergence of Parizeau,
> aging though he is, as a political force in the province?
Parizeau shall return and take the province out of Canada. 4 years
later, they will ask Maine if they can join them.
> And what's this about "three parts"? Do you know something about the secret
> plans of the half-dozen serious western separatists in western Canada that
> the rest of us don't?
Yes. The western provinces will petition Washington state to become
counties.
> > Who cares? I think they do some things of that nature, but isn't it
> > enough to provide large numbers of jobs to an area that otherwise would
> > really be on hard times without Disney?
> >
> > Sounds like you don't understand the beneficial social and economic
> > effects of working.
> No. Working is all to the good, as long as it's at a reasonably secure job
> that pays enough to pay the rent and keep the kids fed.
Like being a maid.
> What I do understand
> is that the next four years are going to be hell for the poor in America,
> whether they're working poor or unemployed.
Yeah, America is hell. The richest country on earth with the richest
poor people on earth is hell.
Because a few poor people can't afford Disneyland, they live in hell.
> And since the federal government
> is going to be increasingly opting out of its social responsibility, large
> corporations like Disney are going to be under increasing pressure from all
> sides to pitch in and help out any way they can.
The federal government has very little "social responsibility".
All I ask is that they cut my taxes and pay the debt. Oh, and defend us
from Canada.
> > A good many Canadians can't afford it either. Again, so what? I can't
> > afford to fly to Venice everyday for lunch.
> True. But I can't help wondering why it's so hard for developers to
> understand that there's a vast potential market out there for affordable
> accomodation in tourist areas. In the hospitality industry in recent years
> there has been a frenzied drive to cater to the upscale end of the market,
> projects like the Grand Californian being an example. There are millions of
> Americans-- and, yes, Canadians-- who'd love to go to DL and have a quality
> experience at a price they can afford. By "quality" I mean not having to
> stay in a fleapit. I'm not saying that the GC should have been a Motel 6--
> but it's not just the wealthy who come to DL seeking something special. I
> have a friend, a single mom who works part-time. She's been promising her
> 7-year-old daughter for three years that she'll take her to DL one day soon,
> but expenses keep cropping up and the money just hasn't been there.
Tell her to move to America and become a maid.
> Disney
> constructing or co-developing a more affordable hotel as well as the GC
> might still not be the solution for her, but at least it would be a sign
> they welcome the business of people like her and her daughter. Maybe if
> Disney put a hiatus on gate admission increases for a few months they'd be
> in the right frame of mind to contemplate this idea.
If there weren't enough people who could afford the GC, they wouldn't
have built it. There are plenty of budget accomodations in the area
already.
> The "slums of Toronto"?!? Huh??! Have you actually been to the city?
Yes. It is a festering sore on the neck of humanity.
> Which
> slums would those be? Scarborough? Richmond Hill? Markham? Granted,
> Jane/Finch has had its share of problems, but that's mainly because, in that
> neighborhood, city planners in the early 70's tried to adapt the American
> 1960s urban-renewal approach which saw block after block of run-down but
> stil viable housing bulldozed and high-rise tenements put in their place. It
> didn't work in Chicago and it didn't work in Toronto. That aside, got a news
> flash for you: Toronto ain't exactly the South Bronx. Not even the
> 2001-model South Bronx. Much of Toronto, in fact,is a lot more visibly
> affluent than most of Anaheim. The endemic and crippling inner-city squalor
> and poverty common in all too many American cities is, thankfully, a
> relatively rare thing in Canada. Our "social safety net" is a lot more
> evolved than yours. Of course, it's our nasty leftist politicians that
> helped to bring that about. Rotten Commies.
Right. Those rotten commies created a health care system that forces
Canadians across the border to use our doctors. Private doctors.
> > or the oppressed and poverty stricken Native villages of Canada.
> That oppression and poverty is why a lot of Canadian Native bands are
> involved in land-claims procedures and are working hard to develop economic
> self-sufficiency-- all part of their ongoing plan to gain self-determination
> and start to fix the botch the Canadian government has made of their lives
> and culture. It's going to take a while, but it's happening.
Too bad most of them are dead.
> > Why do you think so many immigrants go to Orange County? To start their life
> > anew, with a chance to succeed if they work hard. They sure aren't
> > stampeding their way to Calgary.
> OK, it's obvious you've either never been within 1000 miles of Calgary, or
> haven't been there in many many years. Calgary, already a city of over a
> million population (metro) is currently one of the fastest-growing cities in
> North America. Something like 30,000-50,000 people a year are moving in,
> drawn by the booming economy. And guess what: An awful lot of them are
> immigrants. Canada's offshore immigrant population, mostly from East and
> Southeast Asia, has grown exponentially in the past decade, especially in
> Toronto,Calgary, and Vancouver (which has become popularly known as
> "Hongcouver" because of the astonishing number of Hong Kong Chinese, many
> quite wealthy, who've moved there in recent years).
> It may come as a surprise to you, but America is no longer seen as the only
> "land of opportunity" on the planet.
Canada: The land that gave us the mullett.
Calgary: The city that gave the world Chuckwagon Races.
> > Close all hotels, throw the maids out of work, and devise a socialist
> > government program to keep them alive. Great idea!
> Come off it. Who said "close the hotels"? Who said "socialism"? Even if, by
> Orange County standards, Al Gore would be considered a Maoist...
You don't want maids or hotels. So, YOU said close the hotels and fire
the maids.
Maybe you meant that only if hispanic maids were employed.
> > When do you watch these little scenes? If by some miracle you are
> > telling the truth and have seen a maid get chewed out, has it occurred
> > to you she might have deserved it?
> Yeah, it had occurred to me. But having worked on both sides of the
> supervisory equation, I can tell you that it's only an incompetent
> supervisor that A) deals with staff in a tyrannical fashion; B) does so
> within hearing range of customers. If you want a motivated and efficient
> staff, constructive criticism and positive reinforcement gets lots better
> results than acting like Mussolini.
Where I work, we put them on The Rack when they misbehave.
Davko58
Jon Nadelberg
I always love this. I reply a couple times to someone, and then
accordng to them I'm obsessed with everything they say.
I think it's a sign of someone who doesn't like to be challenged.
> At
> times it gets downright bizarre.
Not quite as bizarre as someone who would rather see a parking lot than
an area filled with shops and nightclubs.
> What the hell is it to you whether I find
> the sight of a palm tree exotic or not?
It's nothing to me. But you're the one who first mentioned it.
> They don't grow where I live.
The sago palm might grow there. It is from Japan, and is the only palm
tree known to have survived the last ice age. It grows approximately
1/4 an inch per year. Then again, it might not.
> The
> sight of them gives me great pleasure and the thought of them brings back
> many pleasant memories of Christmas holidays in warmer climes.
Maybe you should move to a warmer climate.
> If that's a
> problem for your palm-satiated self (and christ only knows why it would be),
I couldn't care less about palm trees.
> I'm terribly sorry. You're lucky to have lived in a place where they do
> grow.
Actually, I'm lucky to have been able to go to live in California, being
born and raised here, and enjoying all the beauty this state has to
offer. And as a Californian, I'm very proud that Disney has decided to
base a theme park around my home. It's actually quite fun.
> I hope you realize that. Or are you completely jaded with a lifestyle
> that doesn't include winters where the temperature doesn't rise above ten
> below zero for weeks at a time?
I'm not jaded, I'm just not an idiot for living somewhere like that.
You have to be one to live someplace like that when you don't have to.
> >
> >
> >
> >> You can extrapolate that as much as you like, and maybe you'll
> >> begin to understand why someone like me can rhapsodize about something as
> >> mundane as the sight of a huge California parking lot by night. It's
> >> *somewhere else*, some place that doesn't reek of home and the boredom I
> >> experience there.
> >
> >
> > No, I can't. It is senseless. It's a parking lot.
>
> You evidently have an unhealthy, near-maniacal need to denigrate parking
> lots.
Um, no. Maybe you don't have parking lots where you come from. But we
have them here. People park cars in them. There is nothing to
denigrate about them, because there is nothing to them.
> I don't know how you can stand to travel anywhere in SoCal, with so
> many of those evil asphalt expanses lying in wait to trap the unwary.
I travel in SoCal just fine. I put my car in parking lots. That's
where you place your car before you go and do whatever it is you want.
Sometimes I also get a locker. I put jackets and things in those. I
don't really care a whole lot about them, either. They are lockers.
> Honest
> to god, why are parking lots such a thing with you?
This is kind of funny, because you're the one who was very very angry
because the parking lot had been taken away from you.
They are absolutely of no consequence to me. I simply want a place to
park my car.
> I mentioned DL's purely
> as an expression of an unusual form of nostalgia.
You talked about how HORRIBLE the new DTD area is because it took away
your beautiful parking lot. I find that rather odd to say the least.
> You've been loudly
> spluttering in indignant disbelief ever since.
I don't splutter.
> Let it go! *Please!*
> (Fortunately, you appear to have completely missed my fond and equally
> eccentric reminisce about the appearance of the LA nighttime sky...)
The LA nighttime sky is almost blank. There is nothing to like about
it.
> >
> >
> >> We never went to SoCal for DL alone, tho my partner, who's been going
> >> to DL for a lot longer than I have-- you think *I'm* a fussy purist about
> >> DL?-- you should talk to her) would have been happy to spend seven days in a
> >> row in the park.
> >
> >
> > You're not a Disneyland purist. You're someone who hates any change at
> > all.
> This is a tired statement on your part.
It's also true.
> I've already been thru the negative
> change/positive change argument and it doesn't bear repeating.
Yes. And your argument is that whatever is new is bad.
> >
> >
> (snip)
>
> >> Mall shopping is one of the most mind-numbingly dull exercises I can
> >> imagine.
> >
> >
> > Then why do you describe going to Knott's or the DL Hotel malls to poke
> > through the shops as fun? Why are those fun, and the new shops not?
>
> Those were acts of low-level desperation by two people who were too tired to
> drive into LA but were unwilling to spend the evening in their hotel room
> watching TV.
Um, then you won't have to be so desperate now with the new shoppng and
dining area, will you? Jesus...You can't quite connect two ideas, can
you? I mean:
1) You talk about your horrible weather, and
2) You stay there while knowing it is better elsewhere.
Along with:
1) You say you were desperate about having something to do close to
Disneyland, and
2) Complain that something fun has been built next to Disneyland.
> Strolling thru the shops at Knott's or the DL hotel rated
> pretty low on our fun-o-meters, but at least it kept us awake and the DL
> hotel shops provided a semi-Disney expereice when the park was closed (plus
> they often had merchandise that the park didn't). Certainly if we were in a
> similar position now, we would trundle over to DD out of curiosity/boredom,
> if nothing else.
I don't think you should. I think you should head over to the parking
lot and sniff some bus exhaust and drive 30 miles through Los Angeles to
find the exact same thing you walked right past in DTD.
Have you considered the possibility that DTD was built exactly for
people like you, who had not a lot else to do in the area, and it gives
you a bunch of choices in post park entertainment? Instead of having to
drive across a giant megalopolis, you can now go to different clubs and
restaurants, some of very high quality, and spend the rest of your
evening relaxing and winding down? Have you considered the fact that
listening to a live jazz combo while sipping a margarita in a
beautifully decorated room is more fun that piling into a rental car and
listening to traffic reports on the radio?
Not only should you not be complaining about DTD, you should be
welcoming it with open arms, as the exact sort of thing that will
really make visiting Disneyland a world class experience.
> I still think it looks tacky as hell, though.
That is a matter of taste. But to complain you'd rather have a parking
lot and nothing to do over what has been built is simply ridiculous.
> >
> >
> (snip)
> >
> >> I also like going to esoteric movies, concerts,
> >> museums, galleries, and celebrity cemeteries. Almost none of this is
> >> possibile in Orange County, which, apart from harboring DL and giving the
> >> world Tim Buckley and Michelle Pfeiffer, has little to justify its
> >> existence, as far as I can tell.
> >
> >
> > Then you don't really know that much about it, then, do you?
>
> Oops, sorry; forgot Bomber Bob Dornan.
It's B-1 Bob Dornan. And no, aside from Disneyland, you really don't
know too much about the area.
> >
> >and then say how you hate malls, and then say how the new shopping
> > area, which is not even really a mall, is terrible.
>
> "Terrible"? I don't know.. "Tacky", "over-built", "contrived", and "unable
> to hold a candle to Main Street" certainly do seem apropos, though.
Main Street does not have anyplace you can watch live acts. Main Street
does not have large sit down restaurants. Main Stret does not have the
types of shops fond in DTD, either. They are two completely different
things designed for different reasons. If anything Main Street is far
more contrived than DTD is.
> >
> > In any case, entrance to DTD is actually free at the moment
>
> Good God! You mean they're planning to *charge* people a fee to go
> *shopping*? They really have lost their minds.
They could. They charge people to go into Pleasure Island in WDW, which
is a section in their DTD. I suggest you go there, if you have not
been.
> >
> >
> >> You can bet that if assorted groups of
> >> poor local Hispanic or Vietnamese families, decide to go for a leisurely
> >> stroll thru the lobby of the Grand Californian, security will immediately go
> >> into high alert. That's life on the Great Divide that runs thru the heart of
> >> modern America.
> >
> >
> > Nice bit of racism. If assorted groups of these people went through the
> > hotel, and did not cause any trouble, guess what? They'd probably leave
> > them alone. If anybody, regardless of race, went through the hotel and
> > caused trouble, they'd likely eject them. This was particularly
> > amusing. Scratch the surface of a Canuck, and you get Archie Bunker.
>
> This from a citizen of the country that gave the world the Ku Klux Klan...
It does not matter if this country gave the world the KKK. I'm not
making KKK like statements.
> >> >
> >> > I think you're comments are really bizarre, and I can't believe you
> >> > really believe what you are saying.
> >>
> >> What's bizarre is that I'm even bothering to argue about this.
> >
> > Yes, it is. If you hate Disneyland so much, and how awful it is to the
> > poor people who live near it, and how tragic it is for you to now have
> > to walk through a pleasant music filled area to get to your car instead
> > of having to walk through bus exhaust and dodge sleepy motorists in
> > their cars, then maybe you need to go to Six Flags or some other thing
> > that is unpleasant. Personally, I rather enjoy when things are improved
> > upon.
>
> Here we go again. If I don't love DL in *exactly* the same way and to the
> same extent that you do, ergo, it logically follows that I must hate it.
You're the one who started spewing venom about it, and how the
experience has been ruined for you. If you don't like it, don't go. I
think that's a reasonable suggestion.
> I haven't said one
> bloody word about Disneyland here per se. What's under discussion is the
> Downtown Disney development, which, being outside the berm, is not part of
> Disneyland as far as I'm concerned.
Even if you said that you thought they might tear down the berm because
it was so awful that there was this new thing to do in the parking area?
> I posted a statement saying I didn't
> like DD's looks or its possible impact on our enjoyment of DL.
No. You posted a series of statements saying how you would rather have
the parking lot, even though you went off and did things exactly like
what will be in DTD anyway.
> Evidently at
> that point I crosed a line in your own personal sand, because that's when
> you went bananas and you've been sitting up in your tree howling outrage
> ever since.
I'm not howling with rage.
> That's how it's gone down, and even though irritating, it's been
> a rather bemusing experience.
I'm glad you're being amused. I'm being amused by the fact that you're
kind of nuts. Isn't life fun?
> >
> >
> >> You have your
> >> opinions, I have mine, and they ain't gonna meet; and I have other things I
> >> need to be doing rather than dicking around with this silly-assed shit for
> >> days on end.
> >
> > No, they won't meet, because your opinion is based on simply hating the
> > place no matter what, and you are desperately grasping at any straw you
> > can in order to support your rather feeble arguments.
>
> I've been arguing mostly one-handed. I can't really muster the interest in
> this topic or the energy to argue with both hands. Sorry. Battle fatigue,
> you know. You must be disappointed. I'll try to do better next time.
Uh, right. You write several 200 line long posts about the matter, but
you don't have the energy to argue with both hands.
There's really not a lot to argue about, anyway. Your position is
ridiculous on its face. Because of this, you've decided with this post
to start attacking me directly. That's ok. It is just the sign of
someone who can't defend the things they have said.
Jon Nadelberg
>
>
> Ah. Spent a lot of time lately in Quebec City hobnobbing with Jacques
> Parizeau, have you? Right up on the Quebec political situation, are you?
> Fluent in Joual, are you? Tell me, do you think that Bouchard will be able
> to placate the more radical elements in the PQ at the upcoming convention,
> or will he finally step down and make way for those who want to force
> another referendum? And could this lead to the re-emergence of Parizeau,
> aging though he is, as a political force in the province?
>
> And what's this about "three parts"? Do you know something about the secret
> plans of the half-dozen serious western separatists in western Canada that
> the rest of us don't?
Oh god, just what everyone needs...Canadian politics....where are the
Australians when you need them?
Davko58
> Oh god, just what everyone needs...Canadian politics....where are the
> Australians when you need them?
Saskatchewan petioned Australia to see if they could join their country,
as the residents there are sick of watching all their parking lots
disappear under a cascade of French hotel and shopping developments.
Australia considered the request, but rejected it based on the fact that
Saskatchewan hasn't killed off enough of it's aboriginal population yet.
The Provincial government is now in negotiations with The Former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
Davko58
HootDad
"G. M. Watson " <gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> wrote:
<snip>
> "Davko58" <gm...@pop2.intergate.ca> wrote:
> > So what? After they work for a while they'll save up some money,
move
> > to a nicer area, and be able to afford Disneyland. Or maybe they
never
> > will have enough money, but they'll send their kids to college and
> > they'll have a much better life than Mom and Dad. It's called The
> > American Way.
>
> Geez, Dubbya hasn't even taken office yet and already trickle-down
economic
> theory is being revived...
> >
Your ignorance is showing. What was described above has absolutely
*nothing* to do with "thrickle down" theory of economics.
> Ah. Spent a lot of time lately in Quebec City hobnobbing with Jacques
> Parizeau, have you? Right up on the Quebec political situation, are
you?
> Fluent in Joual, are you?
<snip>
OK, we now know that you appear to be well versed in Canadian politics.
Congratulations. That doesn't alter the fact that your original
assertions were racist and uneducated. It so happens I have family that
live in Anaheim. They quite like it there.
--
John Thompson AKA HootDad
Take a 360 panorama virtual tour of Disney Vero Beach and Disneyland
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