We'll never post again? (Was"we'll never go to DL again)

[Al Lutz]

Trapane <tra...@aol.com> wrote:
> Christine, very, very, very well put, I say! Excellent!
> You hit the nail right on the head!

Agreed.

> But I think you are overlooking a *small* problem with this
> idea. Most everytime someone puts opposing views (with
> an optimistic look of DL) on this newsgwoup, it gets shot
> out of the arena. That is quite intimidating, if not irritating.

You need to do some serious reading of past posts in this group via
DejaNews Tory. If you spend time looking them over you'll see the problem
is not with the folks posting, but by some pretty poor decisions being made
by the park lately.

You're blaming the customers for the problems brought on by the vendor.

> Most people get bullied out, and find it useless to post
> optomistic stories, experiences and opinions.  Usually such
> posts get instantly twisted and turned by others to be used
> for the *DL is not up to par* and *DL Management stinks*
> point of view, or get absurdly trashed by some posters.

I don't think so. The only time people get questioned on a post is when
they try to paint a picture of something that isn't actually true to the
actual experience.

If someone is going to post "Light Magic is wonderful, everybody loved it
and you don't know what you are talking about."

Well, someone is going to point out that the vast majority of people
visiting the park this summer did not exactly feel that same way.

If someone is going to post "Most people get bullied out, and find it
useless to post optomistic stories, experiences and opinions.  Usually such
posts get instantly twisted and turned by others to be used for the *DL is
not up to par* and *DL Management stinks* point of view, or get absurdly
trashed by some posters."

Well, I have to point out that the vast majority of the posts here are
really not like that.

> Sure, some optomistic posters do so in a negative way (such
> as I did, initially), and I DISOURAGE such postings in the future.

I would hope so.

> But I do ENCOURAGE posts such as you put it Christine, "If you
> have good memories, or suggestions or favorite rides, are anything
> whatsoever to say, please post it." I'd venture to enourage posters
> to post GOOD things about DL management. 

Well Kory, you gotta understand something here. We're customers, and
Disneyland is selling something to us. When they don't deliver, folks
speak up. You know as well as I do, that when things go well most folks
don't ever bother to say anything, because they are happy and don't think
to do so. But do something wrong and folks complain. It's awful, but
that's life.

Re-reading in particular the one post I made that you jumped all over me
with initially - it seems that there was a lot of good news in that post.
You just choose to focus only on the first few paragraphs where I had some
unpleasant things to report.

Likewise with the majority of the posts here, you seem to think that people
only post negative ones. There have been some wonderful posts here, you
just have chosen to only focus on the negative.

Maybe you yourself should practice what you preach?

> If not just plainly for the reason that negativity is quite depressing
> (watch now, this is going to spawn some funny and absurdly put
> jokes about DL Management).

No jokes here.

> I think it would be great to hear great experiences from a.d.d.
> posters.  I think it would be even greater to read them without
> a regurgitated "slam" that optimism usually gets here. Sometimes
> it seems that such responses are done just to kill the optimism.
> I'm not saying that is true, but it is discouraging.

I don't think so. You obviously have missed all the threads where we took
negative things and made them into good things, like Karen O'Mara's
"Wishful Merchandise" thread, or the ones where we congratulated folks on a
special event at the park. How about the time all the a.d.d.er's helped
out a U.K. reader who never got his MSEP bulb by getting hold of one for
him and shipping to him at no cost, along with a box of park goodies to
make his day?

But since you're focused only on the criticism we offer here, some if it
quite valid I might add, you probably missed those kind of special threads
we all contribute to here didn't you?

> I know it is probably the heated animosity about DL management
> that seems to permeate just about every thread here. I know (and
> i think everyone else knows) that many people are strongly upset
> about DL Management, and will do just about anything to put it
> down, but it is discouraging to post optimistically when it will just
> get trashed by those people.

Well then maybe, just maybe, the problem might be with DL management and
NOT the folks here? Food for thought don't you think? BTW, even you were
upset with the possibility of eliminating the Walt Disney Story weren't
you?

Kory, unless you want a job with the park, which then would make sense of
this line of reasoning, why are you so concerned about what we think of
park management here? They are big folks, and they can take care of
themselves without you defending them. I myself hope they are learning
from what is being said here, not only would the folks pointing out the
problems get them solved for themselves, but the regular visitors would
benefit too.

> Well, enough babbling.  I wish it was that simple, Christine, but
> until DL Management can do something good for the the upset
> people on a.d.d. (if that's possible), it will be hell here for anyone
> that want's to post optimistically.

I'm sorry you don't seem to have a history of, nor understand what the
folks who visit here feel about the park. There have been some wonderful
things accomplished and celebrated here. You only seem to be focusing on
one color of the many that are offered here.

> Let's get some thoughts about this going (I think, do I dare dare?)...

Got mine. Anyone else want to add to this?

> Kory *still trying to be optimistic*
> a.d.d. = alt.disney.disneyland, not alt.destroy.dlmanagement :-)
> (uh oh, I see more jokes coming)

I'm still optimistic too Kory, as are most folks here. I guess you'll see
what you want to see. No one is out here to destroy DL management, they
seem to be doing a pretty good job of that themselves without any of our
help. If anything, most folks here try to get them to stop pulling that
trigger when the gun is aimed at their foot don't you think?

Thanks folks for reading along,
Al
--
Al Lutz -- (alw...@aol.com) -- FDC & TDC "Deluxe" Chrome Buzz Lightyear
Author of D-I-G - (Disneyland Info Guide) http://members.aol.com/alweho
PROMOTE PRESSLER! - http://members.aol.com/alweho/pressler/pressler.htm
"Strange how potent cheap music can be" (Noel Coward's "Private Lives")

[Trapane]

P.S. this may pst twice - I tried through my school's server, but it seems
to be down. THerefore I am posting via AOL as a test. AOL's usenet
software really sucks, doesn't it?

James and Chris wrote in article <342FA7...@teleport.com>...
>
>Oh, come on... if objective (read: good and bad) converation by people
>about the parks then why are you here? I understand that Disney is
>precious to you, it is to me too. It sounds like you are getting so
>worked up about the things people would like to see improved that you
>are neglecting to form your own opinions or share them with us here. We
>all know Disney is just about as close to perfect at creating "Magic" as
>any company has ever been. That's why we talk about it, Day in and day
>out here on the newsgroups. EVERYTHING can improve, and Disney needs to
>be contantly improving as well - that's precisely what they've done all
>along to become the "Magic" people. Please stop trying to slam people
>for stating their opinions. If you have good memories, or suggestions,

>or favorite rides, are anything whatsoever to say, please post it. I

>appreciate that you are upset by hearing the "bad", so maybe you can be
>the one starting the threads about the "good". We all want to hear both
>sides of it. Heck, if we didn't all adore Disney (sometimes in spite of
>ourselves when they treat us poorly) we would not be here. Please don't
>get hysterical over some "I wish they'd fix this problem" posts, NO ONE
>is suggesting you won't have a TERRIFIC time at DL or WDW. The first
>dozen or so times you go to the parks, you won't even see the problems,
>you will be so bowled over by the general quality and Magic that only
>Disney can create. If you become a "regular", you might, over time, see
>your favorite ride shut down, or have a CM be rude to you for the first
>time ever, and it shocks & hurts you because you've come to love the
>place and expect absolute perfection & dreaminess (because that's what
>they've given you in the past). Disney needs to know what we think about
>things, that's why they ask for feedback at City Hall and why they have
>a huge WWW page with "E-mail us" at every turn. They need our opinions
>and they ask for them, because that is how they create the magic - by
>listening, and by guessing what we'll love. If you're not ready to talk
>about "Why don't they fix such and such", then delete those posts and be
>glad that someone else with a different viewpoint cares enough to let
>Disney know what they feel could be improved and then share that here.
>(What does irk me personally is people who complain here but never do
>bother to let Disney know how they feel, but that's another boring
>story!) :)  Without fan feedback Disney would not be who they are today.
>If you are enough of a DL/WDW newbie to still be blissfully enraptured
>by *everything* at the parks, then great for you! PLEASE post here and
>tell us all about it! We all remember that feeling (and we ALL still
>feel it on every trip to the park in one small way or another) and
>nothing makes up happier than to relive it again through "newbie" trip
>reports, "I loved this" posts, "I knew I saw the Disney magic when"
>posts, taking a friend to the parks for the first time, etc. etc..  Just
>please try not to get so defensive with us, we are ALL on the same side
>here when it comes right down to it!
>Christine :)
>--

Christine, very, very, very well put, I say! Excellent! You hit the nail
right on the head!

But I think you are overlooking a *small* problem with this idea. Most

everytime someone puts opposing views (with an optimistic look of DL) on
this newsgwoup, it gets shot out of the arena. That is quite intimidating,

if not irritating. Most people get bullied out, and find it useless to post

optomistic stories, experiences and opinions.  Usually such posts get
instantly twisted and turned by others to be used for the *DL is not up to
par* and *DL Management stinks* point of view, or get absurdly trashed by
some posters.

Sure, some optomistic posters do so in a negative way (such as I did,
initially), and I DISOURAGE such postings in the future. But I do ENCOURAGE

posts such as you put it Christine, "If you have good memories, or
suggestions or favorite rides, are anything whatsoever to say, please post
it." I'd venture to enourage posters to post GOOD things about DL

management.  If not just plainly for the reason that negativity is quite

depressing (watch now, this is going to spawn some funny and absurdly put
jokes about DL Management).

I think it would be great to hear great experiences from a.d.d. posters.  I

think it would be even greater to read them without a regurgitated "slam"
that optimism usually gets here. Sometimes it seems that such responses are
done just to kill the optimism. I'm not saying that is true, but it is

discouraging. I know it is probably the heated animosity about DL management

that seems to permeate just about every thread here. I know (and i think
everyone else knows) that many people are strongly upset about DL
Management, and will do just about anything to put it down, but it is
discouraging to post optimistically when it will just get trashed by those
people.

Well, enough babbling.  I wish it was that simple, Christine, but until DL

Management can do something good for the the upset people on a.d.d. (if
that's possible), it will be hell here for anyone that want's to post
optimistically.

Let's get some thoughts about this going (I think, do I dare dare?)...

Kory *still trying to be optimistic* Trapane

[Judi Lane]

Trapane wrote:

I'm sorry, but I can't keep quiet about this anymore.

Kory, whom do you know that works in Disneyland management? Is it your spouse?
A family member? Close friend?

You've repeatedly come down on this group for not being more supportive of DL
management. Why? Why do you care so much what we think regarding current
management at DL? Do you feel protective of them because you take our "attacks"

personally? If you don't know anyone in DL management, I can't understand why
it would be so important for you to defend them.

Hey, Kory. I've had a lot of bad managers in my life, OK? And some of the
managers I had at DL when I worked there are included in that list. But, I also

had some really outstanding managers -- most of whom were work leads! -- when I

worked at DL as well. Overall, I must admit that the management of DL when I
was there was better in many ways than the current DL management today. Ron
Dominguez was the greatest! He always had time to talk CM's about anything on
their minds, and really listened to both complaints _and_ suggestions. The one
thing I remember the most about Ron was how *accessible* he was. And how much
he loved the park, both as a manager AND a guest! I have never heard any such
references to Paul Pressler by anyone. And I have a pretty good idea as to why.

No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. But this current management team
doesn't seem to want to own them. Nor learn from them. And if the paying
customers who walk through the gate do not communicate to management when
they're not satisified, then management will never learn how to better
serve their customers. Give DL management credit? I have, recently. I was sent
a questionnaire after a weekend stay at DL Pacific. I had a great room, the
staff was very helpful and courteous... I gave them an excellent review! And
the same for the guest questionnaire I was asked to fill out at Blue Bayou
three weeks ago. Not everything I see is negative, and I give credit where
credit is due. But, I also point out the problems when I see them, and expect
the individuals responsible for those problems to own them, and correct them.

If you wish to go to Disneyland and focus only on the positive, and pretend the

negative isn't there, then do so. But please do not tell us how *we* should be
experiencing Disneyland, or not to discuss the problems we encounter. Putting
the "Pollyanna Spin" on everything will not improve DL's business, or their
long-term bottom line. If guests just walk away disgruntled, and keep their
mouths shut, then management will never know why they stopped coming back when
they're gone.

> I think it would be great to hear great experiences from a.d.d. posters.  I
> think it would be even greater to read them without a regurgitated "slam"
> that optimism usually gets here. Sometimes it seems that such responses are
> done just to kill the optimism. I'm not saying that is true, but it is
> discouraging. I know it is probably the heated animosity about DL management
> that seems to permeate just about every thread here. I know (and i think
> everyone else knows) that many people are strongly upset about DL
> Management, and will do just about anything to put it down, but it is
> discouraging to post optimistically when it will just get trashed by those
> people.
>

We aren't criticizing the optimism... we are criticizing the contents of the
posts. These are two different things! We do not see the park they same way
that you do, and we state so. We do not agree on the conditions at DL at the
current time, which you seem to interpret as a slam against your attitude
regarding the park. You are expecting the world to agree with you, and get
upset when it doesn't. Poor baby, but that's life.

I've stated it before, but I'll state it again. You seem to be too defensive
regarding DL management and a.d.d. criticisms against such. It sounds like a
momma bear protecting her cubs. Perhaps you're not, but that's the way it's
coming off.

And not everything on this ng is negative. There are *plenty* of positives in
trip reports, etc. to be read, if you'd take the time to read them. Optimistic
posts are not mostly "twisted" as you have observed. There are people on this
ng who disagree and agree with a variety of views. And if they aren't agreeing
with yours, then I guess _all_ postive posts are getting mangled, in your eyes.
This is
oversimplication and overgeneralization.

And you call yourself a college student???

> Well, enough babbling.  I wish it was that simple, Christine, but until DL
> Management can do something good for the the upset people on a.d.d. (if
> that's possible), it will be hell here for anyone that want's to post
> optimistically.
>

There is one major thing they can do, Kory, that will make thousands of people
both here on a.d.d. and attending DL very happy: admit they don't know enough
to run the most famous amusement park in the world without enlisting the
"empowered" assistance of those who do! Their arrogance and ignorance is slowly

destroying DL, and that is what needs to be changed. Walt was willing to learn
from his mistakes when he first started out... but I don't see this from
current DL management. And that's the problem.

> Let's get some thoughts about this going (I think, do I dare dare?)...
>

Why? Why are you so eager to step in, stir up the hornet's nest, then step back

while the disaggreements flow your way? I don't understand why this is soooo
important to you. You ask for an open discussion, but then you slam anyone who
doesn't agree with you. What is your problem, Kory? Can't get anyone at USC or
LDSSA upset enough to "perform" for your amusement? If you're in need of that
kind of entertainment, here's a helpful hint: go out on the Macintosh
newsgroups, and start posting how wonderful Win95 is, or how much you love
Microsoft. You'll get pretty much the same results, only more of it. Better
still, tell them why you think Oracle should buy Apple. That will keep you in a

major hornet's nest for eons!

> Kory *still trying to be optimistic* Trapane
> a.d.d. = alt.disney.disneyland, not alt.destroy.dlmanagement :-) (uh oh, I
> see more jokes coming)

I have no doubt now. "Kory Poppins," nanny to DL management. (And no, I won't
make a joke. You already are one.)

Judi

[Trapane]

For example...
>Kory Trapane, you are a troublemaker, and I do not trust your agenda. I
>urge everyone to beware of this one.
>
>Karen O'
>
>Lies, lies, lies.

Not completely. Just go back and look a bit. I did not say ALL or EVERY
or ALWAYS, or NEVER... Some posts are followed by some great happy
thoughts... Wish it could be more often.

[Karen O'Mara]

Kory Trapane, you are a troublemaker, and I do not trust your agenda. I
urge everyone to beware of this one.

Karen O'

Lies, lies, lies.

[TulgeyWood]

If one simply posts positively without "spin", I'm sure evryone would join
in on a happy note. Disneyland is after all, the Happiest Place on Earth.

I am relatively new to the postings around here, but my Disney related
experiences go back years. I have chided management and offered criticism
here of late because I care about the quality of the experience and the
perpetual continuance of Walt-ish theories of entertainment at Disneyland.
There are many things that current or fairly recent management has done
well (Toontown, Indy, Fantasmic, ... healthy snacks.... and others), and I
remain excited about the potential of the new Tomorrowland.

But there are problems I see in the park (as do others around here);
elements of showmanship that do not live up to expectations or
possibilities (even within the realm of sound commerce and profitability).
These issues I feel free to expound on... as a longtime consumer and
informed critic of the company. No one has to listen or care about my
opinions... but I retain the right to free speech... and the hope that even
a handful of my comments might fall on the appropriate ear at the
appropraite time.

Also, these are tough political cookies in management. They can take the
criticism. Opposing voices are often not allowed internally (dismissed as
the ravings of "geeks", etc.), so it is up to us "caring" outsiders to
freely exchange opinions that might not otherwise be circulated.

The mice do whatever possible to help things function in the chateau,
despite the objections of Stepmother & co..

In my way I am only trying to help (but understand, in reality, that a
voice in the ether is only that). Every person who reads these posts
should express whatever view they wish. Debate is good. Censorship in any
form is evil.

And... As these boards go, I commend Al for taking on the role of Brave
Tailor against such a formiddible giant.

[Trapane]

Al wrote:

>Trapane <tra...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Christine, very, very, very well put, I say! Excellent!
>> You hit the nail right on the head!
>
>Agreed.

Wow, can you believe it! :)

>> But I think you are overlooking a *small* problem with this
>> idea. Most everytime someone puts opposing views (with
>> an optimistic look of DL) on this newsgwoup, it gets shot
>> out of the arena. That is quite intimidating, if not irritating.
>
>You need to do some serious reading of past posts in this group via
>DejaNews Tory. If you spend time looking them over you'll see the problem
>is not with the folks posting, but by some pretty poor decisions being made
>by the park lately.
>
>You're blaming the customers for the problems brought on by the vendor.

I think you missed the point. Regardless of the problems at the park, the
happier posts usually get trashed by responses. That is not DL Management's
fault (oh, but I forgot, to you everything is DLM's fault, or so it seems).
For example, there was a great post about the DL Storybook Canal Boats, on
how they enjoyed it because it was their first time making time to see it.
One response later, it was turned into a *bash DL Management* thread.

>> Most people get bullied out, and find it useless to post
>> optomistic stories, experiences and opinions.  Usually such
>> posts get instantly twisted and turned by others to be used
>> for the *DL is not up to par* and *DL Management stinks*
>> point of view, or get absurdly trashed by some posters.
>
>I don't think so. The only time people get questioned on a post is when
>they try to paint a picture of something that isn't actually true to the
>actual experience.

True to who? Who has that authority to say what anyone believes is true?
If you believe that, you'd have a hard time sitting through an ethics
class. It's a wolves den in here for some people to even think of posting.
Unless you are an *ancient DL prophet,* then you haven't got a point. Some
people *actually experience* things contrary to your beliefs.

>If someone is going to post "Light Magic is wonderful, everybody loved it
>and you don't know what you are talking about."

Some people DID actually love it. Some people actually thought it was
wonderful. Not enough did for the bottom line though. That was the problem.
Does that merit an attack?

>Well, someone is going to point out that the vast majority of people
>visiting the park this summer did not exactly feel that same way.

There is different ways of pointing out than just thrashing a post.
Granted not everyone thrashes, some people just turn it into a joke like
the example I gave above, and some don't thrash at all. But there is alot
that intimidates.

>If someone is going to post "Most people get bullied out, and find it
>useless to post optomistic stories, experiences and opinions.  Usually such
>posts get instantly twisted and turned by others to be used for the *DL is
>not up to par* and *DL Management stinks* point of view, or get absurdly
>trashed by some posters."
>
>Well, I have to point out that the vast majority of the posts here are
>really not like that.

That is because the vast majority are posted by the regulars, who usually
have the same viewpoint. Heaven forbid someone who would disagree with that
viewpoint. That's my point. The e-mail I got after my post was from people
that read often, but don't post often.

>> Sure, some optomistic posters do so in a negative way (such
>> as I did, initially), and I DISOURAGE such postings in the future.
>
>I would hope so.
>
>> But I do ENCOURAGE posts such as you put it Christine, "If you
>> have good memories, or suggestions or favorite rides, are anything
>> whatsoever to say, please post it." I'd venture to enourage posters
>> to post GOOD things about DL management. 
>
>Well Kory, you gotta understand something here.

I do, understand, Al, I do...

>We're customers, and
>Disneyland is selling something to us. When they don't deliver, folks
>speak up.

You don't have to keep buying... ;)

> You know as well as I do, that when things go well most folks
>don't ever bother to say anything, because they are happy and don't think
>to do so. But do something wrong and folks complain. It's awful, but
>that's life.

Speaking up is fine. I have spoken up, but to trash things just to trash
and pound that point in most threads, well that is quite intimidating for
some readers. Why do you think this group is so small. If everyone felt
this way, then I think it would swell to alarming numbers. But it is hell
on a.d.d. if you don't want to promote and live for setting DLM in it's
place. This newsgroup is a public trading area, and I hate to see it
overrun by this kind of idea. I'm not saying it shouldn't be here at all,
but it is pretty thick. People that come in have to choose...Do I stay and
put up with it, or should I just bail. Well, it is so thick, that most
people just bail.

>Re-reading in particular the one post I made that you jumped all over me
>with initially - it seems that there was a lot of good news in that post.
>You just choose to focus only on the first few paragraphs where I had some
>unpleasant things to report.

Granted. I did see the *bad* news, but I also did see the good. I know you
love DL Al. I know you don't want it to die. That wasn't the point...

>Likewise with the majority of the posts here, you seem to think that people
>only post negative ones. There have been some wonderful posts here, you
>just have chosen to only focus on the negative.

Wrong, Al... Now, you haven't been reading. I have praised and responded
to a number of posts now.

>Maybe you yourself should practice what you preach?

Godd advice, Al.

>> If not just plainly for the reason that negativity is quite depressing
>> (watch now, this is going to spawn some funny and absurdly put
>> jokes about DL Management).
>
>No jokes here.

Thanks! Others wouldn't think the same... (although I do enjoy a good joke)

>> I think it would be great to hear great experiences from a.d.d.
>> posters.  I think it would be even greater to read them without
>> a regurgitated "slam" that optimism usually gets here. Sometimes
>> it seems that such responses are done just to kill the optimism.
>> I'm not saying that is true, but it is discouraging.
>
>I don't think so. You obviously have missed all the threads where we took
>negative things and made them into good things, like Karen O'Mara's
>"Wishful Merchandise" thread, or the ones where we congratulated folks on a
>special event at the park. How about the time all the a.d.d.er's helped
>out a U.K. reader who never got his MSEP bulb by getting hold of one for
>him and shipping to him at no cost, along with a box of park goodies to
>make his day?

Now you are picking out some good posts. I don't say that they are
non-existent. But the point was the intimidation level of the *anti-DLM*
team is pretty high.

>But since you're focused only on the criticism we offer here, some if it
>quite valid I might add, you probably missed those kind of special threads
>we all contribute to here didn't you?

Just as you focus on the DLM failures? No, Al, and I agree, some of it is
valid. Some good points have been made. I back them up!

>> I know it is probably the heated animosity about DL management
>> that seems to permeate just about every thread here. I know (and
>> i think everyone else knows) that many people are strongly upset
>> about DL Management, and will do just about anything to put it
>> down, but it is discouraging to post optimistically when it will just
>> get trashed by those people.
>
>Well then maybe, just maybe, the problem might be with DL management and
>NOT the folks here? Food for thought don't you think? BTW, even you were
>upset with the possibility of eliminating the Walt Disney Story weren't
>you?

Again, there you go blaming DLM again. They are making poor decisions just
so bad threads can develop on a.d.d.?

And, yes, I was disappointed at the WDS story. How many times do I have to
tell you that I agree with the ideas here? That is not the point. You keep
bringing it back to that idea. The point is that there is not much room for
other ideas because it is so thick in here with the DLM issue.

>Kory, unless you want a job with the park, which then would make sense of
>this line of reasoning, why are you so concerned about what we think of
>park management here? They are big folks, and they can take care of
>themselves without you defending them. I myself hope they are learning
>from what is being said here, not only would the folks pointing out the
>problems get them solved for themselves, but the regular visitors would
>benefit too.

I am not seeking a job there. but am seeking a bit of peace at a.d.d.
Personally, I think you guys have already discredited yourselves and a.d.d.
with DLM. They wouldn't listen to you if you were the last DL guests going
to the park (hopefully it won't go that far (: ). It's just like how you
always discredit me, now. Get it?

>> Well, enough babbling.  I wish it was that simple, Christine, but
>> until DL Management can do something good for the the upset
>> people on a.d.d. (if that's possible), it will be hell here for anyone
>> that want's to post optimistically.
>
>I'm sorry you don't seem to have a history of, nor understand what the
>folks who visit here feel about the park. There have been some wonderful
>things accomplished and celebrated here. You only seem to be focusing on
>one color of the many that are offered here.

Yeah, the strongest, most intimidating color. I don't discount the other
accomplishments...Bravo! for your efforts!

I understand that everyone loves going to the park I have watched you guys
at the park around Rod's piano. I think it is kinda neat.

>> Let's get some thoughts about this going (I think, do I dare dare?)...
>
>Got mine. Anyone else want to add to this?
>
>> Kory *still trying to be optimistic*
>> a.d.d. = alt.disney.disneyland, not alt.destroy.dlmanagement :-)
>> (uh oh, I see more jokes coming)
>
>I'm still optimistic too Kory, as are most folks here. I guess you'll see
>what you want to see. No one is out here to destroy DL management, they
>seem to be doing a pretty good job of that themselves without any of our
>help. If anything, most folks here try to get them to stop pulling that
>trigger when the gun is aimed at their foot don't you think?

I know, not destroy, promote! I know, you are optimistic in a negative
kinda way. Just like the PPP page. It is a more pleasant way of being
negative, but it really doesn't go too far. Maybe if you'd let them do it
by themselves, it would happen quicker and we could move on.

Kory

[Trapane]

Judi Lane <judi...@best.com> wrote:

>Kory, whom do you know that works in Disneyland management? Is it your
>spouse?
>A family member? Close friend?
>
>You've repeatedly come down on this group for not being more supportive of DL
>management. Why? Why do you care so much what we think regarding current
>management at DL? Do you feel protective of them because you take our
>"attacks"
>
>personally? If you don't know anyone in DL management, I can't understand why
>it would be so important for you to defend them.
>
>

When are you going to get it. I am not out to defend DL Management nor do
I disagree with you about them. I do not know anyone personally that works
there. I am not a student anymore, and my wife works at USC (hence the USC
account). I am just for making more space for other ideas on a.d.d., a
public forum about DL because it is so thick in here with the buddy buddy
thing (not necessarily bad) and DL Management bashing. I know that
everyone is concerned about the future of DL. But if one doesn't make it
into the buddy system here, and not believe that the management is doing
things wrong, then it is a short lived a.d.d.er. This newsgroup should be
for all, and not have an intimidating entity in it like there is currently.
Unless it changes, this newsgroup will not make much progress...

I am on your side... (although you seem quite offended by my posts, Judi,
and I am sorry if you are misunderstanding them, or taking them personally)

Anyway, I hope this clears up some things...

Kory

[Tjames Madison]

Trapane <tra...@aol.com> wrote:

: Not completely. Just go back and look a bit. I did not say ALL or EVERY

: or ALWAYS, or NEVER... Some posts are followed by some great happy
: thoughts... Wish it could be more often.

And baiting the hook with "Taffy is good" posts accomplishes... what?
Three possible conclusions.

1. Silence. Readers either:
a) agree that taffy is good, commiserate silently.
b) note that Kory is baiting a hook.
Either way, no followups. End of discussion.

2. Agreement. A giant "Taffy is good" thread follows, eventually leading
to the formation of alt.disneyland.taffy. Masses celebrate wildly in the
streets.

3. Disagreement. Some smartass notes that they liked the Penny Arcade
better when it had moviolas and nickel games instead of a taffy counter.
Kory is justified. Happy thought followed by a negative, ergo, most of
the regulars are mean bastards intent on destoying innocent illusions.

In other words, you've created a strawman, and you'd like us not to notice
that straw is coming out of its shirt and crows are pecking at its
eyeballs.

Has anyone ever read the alt.syntax.tactical FAQ? I bet Trapane has.

--
RoR-Alucard | http://www.pigdog.org
~worship no false kibos~

[Karen O'Mara]

Not true. Simply not true.

Karen O'

[Jon Nadelberg]

In article <19970930040...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
Trapane <tra...@aol.com> wrote:

>Judi Lane <judi...@best.com> wrote:
>
>>Kory, whom do you know that works in Disneyland management? Is it your
>>spouse?
>>A family member? Close friend?
>>
>>You've repeatedly come down on this group for not being more supportive of DL
>>management. Why? Why do you care so much what we think regarding current
>>management at DL? Do you feel protective of them because you take our
>>"attacks"
>>
>>personally? If you don't know anyone in DL management, I can't understand why
>>it would be so important for you to defend them.
>>
>>
>

>When are you going to get it.

Yes. A very good question.

>I am just for making more space for other ideas on a.d.d.,

No, you are not. You are just annoying people by saying insulting
things about them. You are not posting about Disneyland, you are
posting about the people who post about Disneyland.

>a
>public forum about DL because it is so thick in here with the buddy buddy
>thing (not necessarily bad) and DL Management bashing.

Buddy buddy? Right. I have gotten so much hate mail from people
on this group for all kinds of things I've said, I don't even keep track
of whom to dislike anymore.

>I know that
>everyone is concerned about the future of DL. But if one doesn't make it

>into the buddy system here, and not believe that the management is doing
>things wrong, then it is a short lived a.d.d.er.

This is really untrue. If you come here and start calling people names
and such, you're going to not be very welcome at all. If you come
here and give an opposing viewpoint, you'll be welcome, but you'll
be argued with. That's life.

>This newsgroup should be
>for all, and not have an intimidating entity in it like there is currently.

The only intimidation you feel is the in lack of courage of your convictions.

If you feel the park is just great the way it is, you can say that. Other
people who do not feel that way will tell you they don't, and they
will also tell you why. You then have an opportunity to say why
you feel the way you do.

> Unless it changes, this newsgroup will not make much progress...

Progress in what?

>
>Anyway, I hope this clears up some things...

Actually, it'd be interesting to really have a Disney management person
here to answer to some of the things talked about here.

[Jon Nadelberg]

In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.970930...@mariner.cris.com>,
Patrick Olguin <Od...@cris.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Karen O'Mara wrote:
>
>> Not true. Simply not true.
>>
>> Karen O'
>>
>> Trapane wrote:
>> >

>> > But if one doesn't make it
>> > into the buddy system here, and not believe that the management is doing
>> > things wrong, then it is a short lived a.d.d.er.
>

>Right-on, Karen.
>
>Not that anyone reads what I write,

I read and enjoy what you write.

[H.Martini]

Trapane <tra...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970930040...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...

>I am not a student anymore, and my wife works at USC (hence the USC
> account).

Phew! Thank God! I was beginning to wonder about the quality of students
at my Alma Mater. Now I can send them their annual alumni check with a
little more peace of mind.

Martini

USC '87

[LA John 27]

As an outsider, who happens to be a DL passholder and up till very recently, a
DW passholder, I have often happened by the newsgroups to see what's
happening.

I have to say, that it reads that the posts arguing with Kory are much more
defensive than is Kory himself.

As I see it, the opposing factions (to borrow some loaded words) aren't that
far apart. Kory is simply saying that when someone does have a positive
experience, it can frequently be 'spun' negative in the following posts.

And the other side is saying that "The parks aren't what they used to be." I
don't think that anyone can argue that. The parks have had to change in a
great many ways and try to keep up with consumer demands, changes in public
taste, political correctness, all the while maintaining the bottom line. Not
an easy task.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and say "I can do better." Rarely is it ever
that easy. If the stated goal is effective changes to the management policy
at the parks, then I agree that the best way to achieve that effective change
is by communicating likes and dis-likes to those best in the position to do
something about them.

Clearly - that's not Kory. He doesn't like to hear alot of the negative stuff.
He's not management and neither is his wife. So communicating those likes
and dis-likes to him doesn't really accomplish the stated goal of effective
change.

Sharing with other A.D.D folks makes sense.. but only to achieve concensus.
Sharing to commiserate is pointless, in so far as the stated goal is
concerned. There just seems to be an inordinate amount of energy being
consumed and negative energy being created, around arguments in the newsgroup
-- that even if you should manage to change the other's mind, accomplish
nothing. Literally.

Imagine for just a moment, if all that energy was funneled towards constructive
criticism of the park management directly, instead of here. If all that
energy was being consumed in some positive way. Whatever that might be.

What's my point? I don't know, I got lost in all the crud I wrote above. But
I guess that it just seems this argument is a little bit of the forest/trees
situation. We all agree that the park is making changes we don't like. What
I have done, is pick my battles. I have written to the park, and to Mr.
Pressler stating that I think changes to the WD Story are really a mistake.

That's it.

I didn't go into the fact I feel the park isn't maintained properly right now,
I didn't go into the changes that have taken place elsewhere on Main Street,
and I didn't go into DL Merchandise issues.

Pick your battles (and your opponents). And fight them wisely.

Peace out...

J

[Patrick Olguin]

Thanks, Jon. I wasn't fishing for a compliment, honest :-).

Patrick Olguin - often accused of being a paid shill for the radical meek.

[Patrick Olguin]

As someone else has already suggested, folks should be reading the
alt.syntax.tactical FAQ on Dejanews. It's quite informative, and in my
suspicious mind, explains a lot about what has gone on in the group over
the past few months, with people seemingly coming out of nowhere.

Read the FAQ. It's just a little unsettling. Here's the URL:

http://ddi.digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html

Patrick Olguin - wears earmuffs to drown out the rotor wash of the black
helicopters of the net.

[Trapane]

>Yes, and he's trying to make his point by springing traps and placing
>tasty morsels within them he's sure the regulars will devour. I
>intentionally swung at the taffy thread because I had a feeling he was
>waiting to pounce on the first negative reply as being indicative of group
>behavior as a whole. He did, of course, which is all the proof I need to
>see.

Wait a minute, who is springing traps here? I actually posted in good faith,
but it turned into a hidden agenda with your post. How quick you were to jump
the gun. I am so glad it mustered up both good and bad responses. It helped
me and others see what others think, constructively. You, on the other hand,
were out to dissemble.

>He's a dissembler. I don't agree with some of the things that have been
>said about him, but I also don't buy that he just wants people to talk
>about the good stuff.

I want to discuss both sides of the issue, and that is what we got. A pretty
good balance, I should say.

>There are legitimate issues worth discussing on both sides. That's not
>the problem. The problem is when someone like Trapane comes into a group
>and decides he can dictate how discussion is conducted, and then sets out
>to prove it.

Not prove it, just promote it. What's wrong with that?

>If he wants to spread optimism, let him do it, but without the subterfuge,
>without the hidden agendas. If he wants to lead a personality cult, let
>him take his act somewhere else, as quickly as possible.

No hidden agenda's here. I like taffy. I don't like the idea of losing the
WDStory. I like the chowder pots and the other varieties, I don't like the
recent price hike. What is hidden here?

Like I've stated before, the negative threads are thick and intimidating. I am
trying to promote the balance. That is not hidden. Just like Al and some
others post the good, the bad, and the ugly in balance. So should we all
(unless you really think there is no good at DL). For the sake of DL. this NG
and its readers/posters, not just for me.

Kory *nohiddenagendahere* Trapane

[Trapane]

tja...@pigdog.org (Tjames Madison)
Date: Tue, Sep 30, 1997 18:15 EDT wrote:

>If it wasn't bait, than why did you so quickly and pointedly use it as an
>example for Al to see? If it was an "honest post", why would you care?

Because I do care... Honest! That's why I post...

Kory *bigcarebear* Trapane

[Patrick Olguin]

On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Karen O'Mara wrote:

> Not true. Simply not true.
>
> Karen O'
>
> Trapane wrote:
> >
> > But if one doesn't make it
> > into the buddy system here, and not believe that the management is doing
> > things wrong, then it is a short lived a.d.d.er.

Right-on, Karen.

Not that anyone reads what I write, but I have written all sorts of
glowing reports of super-nice CMs, the Hercules Parade, Country Bear
Jamboree, The Pocahontas Show (actually, a few people read that and sent
some very touching e-mails), Rod the Piano Player, Fantasmic, Maynard, and
so on; all received with nary a negative spin.

Take a little of your own medicine, Kory. You call people out for looking
only at the negative in the park, while doing the same within the
newsgroup. Don't you think that's just a tad inconsistent?

I can't remember tha last time I went to the park, and didn't have a good
time. It doesn't mean I'm going to turn a blind eye to things which are
glaringly wrong. Oh, what's use...

Patrick Olguin

[Tjames Madison]

LA John 27 <lajo...@aol.com> wrote:

: As I see it, the opposing factions (to borrow some loaded words) aren't that

: far apart. Kory is simply saying that when someone does have a positive
: experience, it can frequently be 'spun' negative in the following posts.

Yes, and he's trying to make his point by springing traps and placing

tasty morsels within them he's sure the regulars will devour. I
intentionally swung at the taffy thread because I had a feeling he was
waiting to pounce on the first negative reply as being indicative of group
behavior as a whole. He did, of course, which is all the proof I need to
see.

He's a dissembler. I don't agree with some of the things that have been

said about him, but I also don't buy that he just wants people to talk
about the good stuff.

There are legitimate issues worth discussing on both sides. That's not

the problem. The problem is when someone like Trapane comes into a group
and decides he can dictate how discussion is conducted, and then sets out
to prove it.

If he wants to spread optimism, let him do it, but without the subterfuge,

without the hidden agendas. If he wants to lead a personality cult, let
him take his act somewhere else, as quickly as possible.

[Tjames Madison]

Trapane <tra...@aol.com> wrote:
: >And baiting the hook with "Taffy is good" posts accomplishes... what?

: Glad to see you took the bait.. NO,duh, it wasn't bait. An honest post.
: Gees! Won't you let room for such posts?

If it wasn't bait, than why did you so quickly and pointedly use it as an
example for Al to see? If it was an "honest post", why would you care?

: >Has anyone ever read the alt.syntax.tactical FAQ? I bet Trapane has.

: No I haven't. But maybe I should?

Sure, practice makes perfect, I guess.

[Stephen Littefoot]

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When you post a story comments reply ect. you will get reaction good and
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[Jon Nadelberg]

In article <60rt43$lvg$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,

Tjames Madison <tja...@pigdog.org> wrote:
>LA John 27 <lajo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>: As I see it, the opposing factions (to borrow some loaded words) aren't that
>: far apart. Kory is simply saying that when someone does have a positive
>: experience, it can frequently be 'spun' negative in the following posts.
>
>Yes, and he's trying to make his point by springing traps and placing
>tasty morsels within them he's sure the regulars will devour.

I think it's best if we don't respond to his personal comments, nor respond
to people who make comments regarding him, especially from places like AOL,
which is basically an anonymous post.

I'm not saying that the AOL poster is being dishonest, I just think the
subject needs to be dropped, or this person will have succeeded in
whatever it is he is attempting.

[Beth Eloheimo]

Yes, very interesting...

Would you say this is the second wave?

Beth E. <always a little bit paranoid>