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Stroller Terrorists

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shaun&karen

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Aug 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/15/96
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Karl Guttag wrote:
>
> send...@aol.com (SENDAFAY) wrote:
> >What do you all think of DL instituting a ban on strollers after dark? I
> >like the idea, having had my ankles barked too many times!!
> >Dennis
>
> Let me bestow upon you the "Bah Humbug Award." :-).
>
> Disneyland is afterall for whole families including Kids. Kids just are not
> up to walking all day and they can give out almost without notices. A
> stroller lets them get much more out of the park.
>
> Karl

Yes, but have you _seen_ some of the reckless driving (strolling?
strollering? oh all right, pushing) that goes on? I swear there are
people out there who use their children to force a way through a crowd;
they just stick out the stroller (regardless of ankles or oncoming
hazards, such as horses and Jolly Trolleys) and barge ahead. I once
almost knocked a friend down jumping out of the way of an oncoming tot
whose mother was pushing one way and looking another.

Okay, that said, I freely admit that most stroller pushers behave better
and that strollers are a necessity.

--Karen

Karl Guttag

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Aug 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/16/96
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wist...@earthlink.net

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Aug 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/16/96
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Well before my stroller got stolen, my son has been nearly burned in
the face with cigarettes on more than one occasion, cut across his
legs by cowboy boots when someone very tall stepped over him, and hit
with souvenir bags and purses. I will admit that there are people who
don't know how to drive a stroller and probably not a car for that
matter. I have only hit one person with a stroller and that was
because they turned around in a crowd and rather than walk carefully
try to run. I guess having an AP and going often has improved
stroller skills. Most people have never driven a stroller in crowds
at amusement and theme parks. I empathise with people who have been
hurt by strollers as I have seen nasty cuts by careless people and
those who are just not very nice. The rental strollers hurt. I have
been bashed by one of those. Even if it means getting home an hour
later, I take my time leaving. You wind up sitting in traffic for a
long while to get on the freeway if you leave when everyone else does.
I relish having coffee or frozen yogurt and listening to Rod play the
piano or people watching. I just melt seeing the happy kids with
smiles on their faces with their eyes half shut. Our son doesn't
sleep at Disneyland. He never has, even when we have been there from
opening to closing and that was when he was 2. It's give and take on
both sides of the issue. A little tolerance and understanding goes
such a long day. Everyone goes to Disneyland for that one thing, that
special magic. Pushing a stroller, hauling gear for the kids, holding
the kids to Disneyland or WDW is expensive and tiring and worth it to
see the pixie dust twinkle in their eyes. You will always find the
magic in a child's eyes. The next time you scowl at a stroller, look
at the child in the stroller if you can. Remember the time when you
were there as a small child and imagine someone telling your parents
you didn't belong there because you were in a stroller. I think I
know what they would say and I think you know how would have felt
then.
Wisterya

Jeff Moxley

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Aug 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/16/96
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wist...@earthlink.net wrote:

>The next time you scowl at a stroller, look
>at the child in the stroller if you can. Remember the time when you
>were there as a small child and imagine someone telling your parents
>you didn't belong there because you were in a stroller. I think I
>know what they would say and I think you know how would have felt
>then.
>Wisterya

That's good advice. I know I've wished that strollers were banned on
more than one occasion (especially this summer), but before I get too
worked up I do exactly what you said. I think of the children and what
they are able to experience because of strollers. Disneyland is as
much for them as it is for us, probably more so. It still irks me
sometimes, but I don't get mad. I guess that'll change when I have
kids of my own.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|Jeff Moxley |"Luke, your gonna find that many of the |
|cybe...@ix.netcom.com |truths we cling to depend greatly on our|
| |own point of view." -- Obi Wan Kenobi |
| | SW:ROTJ |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

B

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Aug 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/16/96
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shaun&karen wrote:
>
> Karl Guttag wrote:
> >
> > send...@aol.com (SENDAFAY) wrote:
> > >What do you all think of DL instituting a ban on strollers after dark? I
> > >like the idea, having had my ankles barked too many times!!
> > >Dennis
> >
> > Let me bestow upon you the "Bah Humbug Award." :-).
> >
> > Disneyland is afterall for whole families including Kids. Kids just are not
> > up to walking all day and they can give out almost without notices. A
> > stroller lets them get much more out of the park.
> >
> > Karl
>
> Yes, but have you _seen_ some of the reckless driving (strolling?
> strollering? oh all right, pushing) that goes on? I swear there are
> people out there who use their children to force a way through a crowd;
> they just stick out the stroller (regardless of ankles or oncoming
> hazards, such as horses and Jolly Trolleys) and barge ahead. I once
> almost knocked a friend down jumping out of the way of an oncoming tot
> whose mother was pushing one way and looking another.
>
> Okay, that said, I freely admit that most stroller pushers behave better
> and that strollers are a necessity.
>
> --Karen

I just cannot stand those strollers. Some stroller drivers do not watch
where they are going. There are just too many of them. Eventhough, I
think that people should be able to bring strollers. That is their
right. They should have some sort of limit. If disneyland would
limit the stroller use to not include the night, it would get rid of many
youngsters being there late at night. When people leave their strollers
they have to realize that whatever they left there could be stollen.
Have them clearly marked as so and so's stroller.
B
paul...@mail.idt.net
http://www.angelfire.com/pg1/WDWtips/index.html
http://www.angelfire.com/pg3/WDWSTUCK/index.html

Karl Guttag

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
to

People can be un-observant to down right rude with a
stroller. But banning them from the park is punishing
everyone for the problems of a few.

But now that you mention it, next time on my way out
Fantasmic I might be able to save some time. LOOK OUT,
HERE WE COME :-).

Karl


Caleb & Michele Warner

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
to pj...@axe.humboldt.edu

pj...@axe.humboldt.edu (Pat Foran) wrote:
>In article <4v0ujr$1...@news.internetmci.com>, kgu...@internetMCI.com says...

>>
>>
>>
>>send...@aol.com (SENDAFAY) wrote:
>>>What do you all think of DL instituting a ban on strollers after dark? I
>>>like the idea, having had my ankles barked too many times!!
>>>Dennis
>>
>>Let me bestow upon you the "Bah Humbug Award." :-).
>>
>>Disneyland is afterall for whole families including Kids. Kids just are not
>>up to walking all day and they can give out almost without notices. A
>>stroller lets them get much more out of the park.
>>
>>Karl
>>
>>
>
>Yeah, but I still say that if your child is small enough to require a
>stroller, then the child is probably too small to *be* at Disneyland. What's
>the point of bringing the child if he or she is going to fall asleep a
>half-hour into the park?
>

Why do you assume that a child who needs a stroller will fall asleep a
half-hour into the park? Some children use strollers into toddlerhood
and even later when faced with a day that includes a lot of walking. We
took my daughter to WDW when she was just 2 and she loved it. She
handled the trip very well and didn't even nap that week (she slept
longer at night). She didn't fall asleep once in her stroller. If she
had been made to walk or be carried the trip would have been a nightmare.
We are going to WDW again this December and she will be 4 1/2 (our son
will be nearly 2). I plan on bringing our extra small stroller just in
case she needs it. After all, my feet are exhausted after a day at WDW
so imagine how a 4 year old's will feel.

It always amazes me how many adults feel that young children should not
be at WDW or DL. Come on! They are places that were created with
families in mind. Sure, my kids may not remember much over the long run,
but they have a fantastic time when they are there.

As for all of those rude stroller-drivers, just think about how many
times you are bumped by people who don't have strollers. I think you
will find that the number is comparable to the number of stroller bumps
you receive, if not much greater. Sure, there are some people who don't
care about whether or not their stroller bumps you but there are also a
lot of us who try our best to "drive" responsibly. Instead of trying to
find fault with everyone (something that is becoming a trend in our
society) let's just learn to live with others faults.

Michele


Richard Hammersley

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
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My wife calls some stroller drivers "stroller storm troupers".
If you want to get through a crowd fast get behind a stroller.

With strollers it's just like many other things, people are in a
hurry and don't think. What I do is once I get "ankled" twice I
turn around and stop and make the driver wait or go around.
--
...............................................................
Richard Hammersley Let's see, How many days til Oct 31
Hamme...@Dartmouth.Edu
Dartmouth College
...............................................................
M I C K E Y M OU SE
...............................................................

shaun&karen

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
to

Pat Foran wrote:
>
<snip. see previous posts>

> Yeah, but I still say that if your child is small enough to require a
> stroller, then the child is probably too small to *be* at Disneyland. What's
> the point of bringing the child if he or she is going to fall asleep a
> half-hour into the park?

I'm not sure I would go that far, and this is a slightly different topic
(one that will undoubtedly get me a "Scrooge" nomination, too), but I
have always wondered what is going through the minds of parents who are
dragging sleepy, whiny, crying tots all over the park at 10 and 11 p.m.
and later. All they are doing is helping ruin the experiences of the
people around them, add bad memories to the ends of their own trips, and
make their sleepy kids (who are probably tireder than usual after a day
of exercise and not-so-nutritious snacks) very unhappy. This seems even
more foolish when the family is from a later time zone; no 4-year-old in
the world needs to be up at what his or her internal clock says is 2
a.m.

I know the kids probably fuss, cry, and carry on at the idea of leaving
the park (I certainly did), but they fuss, cry, and carry on if they
stay, too. I know the parents probably don't want their own Disneyland
experiences to end, but I maintain that the proper time to enjoy
Disneyland late at night is when you are there without any children too
young to be up so late.

I'm not talking about stretching the bedtime of an 8-year-old a couple
hours for a special occasion; I'm talking about crying infants and
toddlers in the audience for the third showing of Fanstasmic.

Undoubtedly, their parents are the same ones who sit in expensive
restaurants with crying kids, forcing the rest of the patrons to listen
to top-volume bawling at $35 a plate. Although it would be unacceptable
at $5 a plate, too; what ever happened to hauling crying kids out to the
car until they quit crying?

Evidently, the same thing that happened to taking them home from
Disneyland before their visits turned into hell for them and everyone
around them.

Bah, Humbuggily,
Karen

Karl Guttag

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
to

pj...@axe.humboldt.edu (Pat Foran) wrote:

>In article <4v0ujr$1...@news.internetmci.com>, kgu...@internetMCI.com says...
>>
>>
>>
>>send...@aol.com (SENDAFAY) wrote:
>>>What do you all think of DL instituting a ban on strollers after dark? I
>>>like the idea, having had my ankles barked too many times!!
>>>Dennis
>>
>>Let me bestow upon you the "Bah Humbug Award." :-).
>>
>>Disneyland is afterall for whole families including Kids. Kids just are not
>>up to walking all day and they can give out almost without notices. A
>>stroller lets them get much more out of the park.
>>
>>Karl
>>
>>

>Yeah, but I still say that if your child is small enough to require a

>stroller, then the child is probably too small to *be* at Disneyland. What's
>the point of bringing the child if he or she is going to fall asleep a
>half-hour into the park?

Not at all true. The great thing about Disneyland is that it is a
place for people of all ages. BY the way, I don't feel the same about
WDW. I have found that WDW is not as good for families where all the
kids are under 8. WDW is too big and too much walking and just too
much theme park for the younger kids (3 days at Disneyland with young
children is much better than any lenght at WDW -- as we live in Texas
is is a question of which direction we go)

My oldest boy (now almost 7) when he was 2 and 1/2 had the time of
his life. Even at 5 years old, there is too much walking. The
stroller saves their energy for enjoying the park rather than being
worn out by the time they get to the first ride. By the time they
are out of strollers they are starting to understand that Mickey is a
person in a suit.

I always stay at the Disneyland Hotel to make it easy for the kids (or
adult) to take a nap if they want it, but last year with a 3 and a 6
year old, I found that the 3 year old passed out in the stroller while
the 6 year old (who also had a stroller) kept going. The 3 year old
needed a short nap and it was easier to let him stay in the stroller
than take a nap..

I do agree that once a kid is "gone for the day" that he/she is better
off back at the hotel in bed.


Daniel

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
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In article <321561...@mail.idt.net>, paul...@mail.idt.net says...
As a Disneyland enthusiast since 1975 and a new father, I worry about an
anti-stroller attitude. I doubt I would keep my daughter very late at the
park, but I would like it to be an option if she has been sleeping during the
day. If and when I do take a stroller to the park I will be careful not to be
one of those pushy parents that run over other's toes. I would still like to
feel that I am welcome, especially since I will purchase lots of merchandise
for the child I am pusing in the stroller, thus contributing to paying for new
attractions. Please have some compassion for the considerate user of
strollers (and a lifelong follower of all things Disneyland) :)

-DN

Matthew Pearce

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
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shaun&karen (shaun&ka...@windjammer.net) wrote:

: hours for a special occasion; I'm talking about crying infants and


: toddlers in the audience for the third showing of Fanstasmic.

Tell me about it. The first time I saw Capt. EO, there was a screaming
child in the front. A CM anounced that now would be a good time to
remove any children who don't like loud noise. The child remained.

The CM came back to the microphone. She was trying to be pleasant/polite,
but you could hear the strain in her voice.

I'm sure the kid was thrilleded to be exposed to the volume of EO!
(O.k., I admit that I am not a MJ fan).

M.P.
--
Looking for software for your Apple IIGS or Macintosh?
Visit http://www.crl.com/~mpearce/GSAUG/Apple.html

Pat Foran

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
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Mark J. Ross

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Aug 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/17/96
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In article <321408...@windjammer.net> shaun&ka...@windjammer.net writes:

>Karl Guttag wrote:
>> send...@aol.com (SENDAFAY) wrote:
>> >What do you all think of DL instituting a ban on strollers after dark? I
>> Let me bestow upon you the "Bah Humbug Award." :-).
>Yes, but have you _seen_ some of the reckless driving (strolling?
>they just stick out the stroller (regardless of ankles or oncoming
>hazards, such as horses and Jolly Trolleys) and barge ahead. I once
>almost knocked a friend down jumping out of the way of an oncoming tot
>whose mother was pushing one way and looking another.

How 'bout turning around when you hear a stroller behind you
(most of them squeak loudly) and raise the toe of your shoe to
abruptly block the oncoming stroller? Most people will realize
how you feel when their stroller stops, but they don't.

Or, after jumping aside, just grab hold of the stroller and
thank the pusher for allowing you to regain your balance with
their stroller. Some good acting and you might win a Tony
(remember - you're "on stage").


Mark

*****************************************************
* *
* When you're near Disneyland *
* Experience LASERAMA *
* at the UCLA Planetarium *
* http://www.seas.ucla.edu/laserama *
* *
*****************************************************

Bill Speicher

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Aug 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/18/96
to

Fight Back!

You don't have to have a child to rent a stroller (battering ram). Rent one
and turn your next attack into a demolition derby.

You can also fight back by using a wheelchair. The electric ones are really
nice because they have reverse.

That's why I drive an old Lincoln! :)

David Crapenhoft

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Aug 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/18/96
to

Karl Guttag wrote:
>
> People can be un-observant to down right rude with a
> stroller. But banning them from the park is punishing
> everyone for the problems of a few.
>
>

But lets also not forget the people not pushing strollers who so rudely
jump over or in front of the person pushing a stroller that causes themselves
to be hit. I can't count the number of times ive been pushing my daughter and
someone steps in front of me in a hurry to get to "wherever land". I am a careful
stroller pusher who thinks of other peoples ankles when i am at the park, only because
i remember when i was childless and avoided the dreaded "stroller people".

Watch out for me at the park! But i am the courtious one who thinks about others!

Don Bertino

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Aug 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/19/96
to

Previously paul...@mail.idt.net wrote:

>shaun&karen wrote:
>> Karl Guttag wrote:
>> >
>> > send...@aol.com (SENDAFAY) wrote:
>> > >What do you all think of DL instituting a ban on strollers after dark? I
>> > >like the idea, having had my ankles barked too many times!!
>> > >Dennis
>> >
>> > Let me bestow upon you the "Bah Humbug Award." :-).
>> >
>> > Disneyland is afterall for whole families including Kids. Kids just are not
>> > up to walking all day and they can give out almost without notices. A
>> > stroller lets them get much more out of the park.
>>
>> Yes, but have you _seen_ some of the reckless driving (strolling?
>> strollering? oh all right, pushing) that goes on? I swear there are
>> people out there who use their children to force a way through a crowd;
>> they just stick out the stroller (regardless of ankles or oncoming
>> hazards, such as horses and Jolly Trolleys) and barge ahead. I once
>> almost knocked a friend down jumping out of the way of an oncoming tot
>> whose mother was pushing one way and looking another.
>>
>> Okay, that said, I freely admit that most stroller pushers behave better
>> and that strollers are a necessity.
>
>I just cannot stand those strollers. Some stroller drivers do not watch
>where they are going. There are just too many of them. Eventhough, I
>think that people should be able to bring strollers. That is their
>right. They should have some sort of limit. If disneyland would
>limit the stroller use to not include the night, it would get rid of many
>youngsters being there late at night. When people leave their strollers
>they have to realize that whatever they left there could be stollen.
>Have them clearly marked as so and so's stroller.

You will pry my stroller way from my cold hands...... ;)

Caused by the incredible Achilles tendon biter (my son's stroller):

Points
A bump 0
Trip 1
Fall 1
Blood drawn 2
Verbal argument (<3 words) 2
Verbal argument (>3 words) 4
Physical argument (<3 punches) 3
Physical argument (>3 punches) 6
Walking away 0
Limping away 2
Carted away 8
Trip to First Aid Ctr 8
Ambulance called 12

Bruised Achilles tendon 1
Slightly torn Achilles tendon 4
Torn Achilles tendon 16
Surgery for torn Achilles tendon (<$4000) 8
Surgery for torn Achilles tendon (>$4000) 32

Don '90 (211) '91 (156 - bad year) '92 (256) '93 (311) '94 (456) '95 (386) '96?

*ducks and runs*

I'm just curious? How many of those who hate strollers have children that
fit in them?

Michael Stone

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Aug 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/19/96
to

: I just cannot stand those strollers. Some stroller drivers do not watch

: where they are going. There are just too many of them. Eventhough, I
: think that people should be able to bring strollers. That is their
: right. They should have some sort of limit. If disneyland would
: limit the stroller use to not include the night, it would get rid of many
: youngsters being there late at night. When people leave their strollers
: they have to realize that whatever they left there could be stollen.
: Have them clearly marked as so and so's stroller.

Go down the street to Leisure World. You'd be happier there.

Don Bertino

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Aug 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/20/96
to

Previously tom...@humboldt1.com wrote:
>Who else is in favor of people needing a license to drive
>strollers?! EVERYWHERE, not just Disneyland, speaking as
>a person who once got yelled at by an old bat who was
>a victim of the infamous "double-stroller" (a terror
>to all), I think there should be some sort of Stroller
>Etiquette course given as part of the parenting classes!

As with all things, most people are very careful with strollers, a few bad
apples make a bad name for them all (us, I should say) I can't tell you
how many times people have stepped right in front of a stroller without
looking.

Personally, I'm for one of those deer sirens you put on cars/trucks...
Maybe playing "It's a small world after all..."

That should clear a path.... ;) ;) ;)

don
--
ber...@netcom.com ____/^\_____________________________________
Disney ascii art & / \ || FDC MCP || / \
animations are at <______\ [] [] [] || [] [] [] || [] [] [] /______>
http://www.calweb.com \----------------||----------||----------------/===
/~bertino===============\______________||__________||______________/=====

Dynamite Disney Document of the Day (available at the above FTP site):
** Attraction Descriptions/Scripts: EPCOT.innnoventions

shaun&karen

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Aug 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/20/96
to

Don Bertino wrote:
>

> Personally, I'm for one of those deer sirens you put on cars/trucks...
> Maybe playing "It's a small world after all..."
>
> That should clear a path.... ;) ;) ;)
>

Or incite a riot ;)

--Karen

Genghis

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Aug 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/20/96
to

Hmmmm... I know I'd run like hell!!

Genghis

--
"Pay no attention to what the critics say;
no statue has ever been erected to a critic."
- Jean Sibelius

tom...@humboldt1.com

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Aug 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/20/96
to

Paul Thornton @unplug

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Aug 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/21/96
to

In <321966...@humboldt1.com> tom...@humboldt1.com writes:

I guess there are some people out there that could use a course in
"Stroller Etiquette". However, there are also people out there that
could use a course on plain "Walking Etiquette". I can't count the
number of times people just cut in front of me, stoppped dead in their
tracks, bump into me or the stroller because they were busy stuffing
their face or looking elsewhere while walking, etc... while I was
pushing our stroller through DL. And we only used it when going to
different parts of the park and while my son needed a nap.

So, stop putting the blame on everyone with a stroller. We're all not
like that. And also remember accidents do happen (I have bumped people
by accident - but I always apologize for it).

Another thing to think about is if strollers are not allowed, there
will be a lot more children running wild through the crowds with
parents in chase.

Just my $.02.

--Paul

seamar

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Aug 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/21/96
to

> >Yeah, but I still say that if your child is small enough to require a
> >stroller, then the child is probably too small to *be* at Disneyland. What's
> >the point of bringing the child if he or she is going to fall asleep a
> >half-hour into the park?

I can't believe someone would suggest that children in strollers
should not be brought to Disneyland. What an incredible suggestion.
And someone else wanted to ban strollers from the park! Just
unbelievable.

Disneyland is for all people, including families with small children.
How could anyone say that children in strollers aren't welcome at
Disneyland?

It's frustrating for the person pushing the stroller to try to be polite
and not hit anyone, because if one tries to leave any room in a crowd,
it is taken up by someone who is not paying attention to the fact that
there might be a stroller there. I can see why stroller-pushers get
agressive - politeness gets you to the back of the crowd.

I have a bit of fear of crowds, so when we go to DL in late Sept.,
I will probably hang back anyway. But I certainly hope, on behalf
of all families, that no-one would think small children should not
be at Disneyland.

Thank you for listening. This is my first post to a newsgroup after several
weeks of reading, and the first subject that got me worked up enough
to post.

ECLindblad

Bob Meddaugh

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Aug 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/22/96
to

I've been on both sides of this problem, but to not allow strollers is
a tad extreme. Actually the problem is not so much the stroller. The
root cause of this is the people, both stroller operators and those
without, who insist on performing a visual inspection of the inside of
their rectum while attempting to navigate through a crowd. Now if
Disney banned that activity, this type of problem would disappear
quickly. :<)

Bob Meddaugh


NB

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Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

Daniel wrote:
>
> In article <321561...@mail.idt.net>, paul...@mail.idt.net says...
> As a Disneyland enthusiast since 1975 and a new father, I worry about an
> anti-stroller attitude. I doubt I would keep my daughter very late at the
> park, but I would like it to be an option if she has been sleeping during the
> day.

Daniel, take one of those baby backpacks (you could store it in a
locker) or if your daughter falls asleep, go back to the motel and come
back later...

Don't add another stroller to the crowded conditions...

NB

NB

unread,
Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

> wist...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> >The next time you scowl at a stroller, look
> >at the child in the stroller if you can. Remember the time when you
> >were there as a small child and imagine someone telling your parents
> >you didn't belong there because you were in a stroller. I think I
> >know what they would say and I think you know how would have felt
> >then.
> >Wisterya
>

Sorry, I disagree. My parents and other relatives did not take us until
we could walk. Even my relatives who had older kids waited until
everyone was old enough to walk around.

If your kids are tired, take them back to the motel (if you are over 30,
you'll probably need the nap, too!) You can bring them back later for
the evening. I've tried this with my son, and it works!

You don't want them to miss the fireworks, do you?

NB

NB

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Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

seamar wrote:

> I can't believe someone would suggest that children in strollers
> should not be brought to Disneyland. What an incredible suggestion.
> And someone else wanted to ban strollers from the park! Just
> unbelievable.
>
> Disneyland is for all people, including families with small children.
> How could anyone say that children in strollers aren't welcome at
> Disneyland?

Because there are too many of them, people don't just bring those small,
fold-up stollers, they bring these humungous things and then strap on
all their purchases...it is too much!

> But I certainly hope, on behalf
> of all families, that no-one would think small children should not
> be at Disneyland.

Disneyland was NOT designed for babies!

You see, those of us who went in the 50's remember when only a handful
of people took strollers, most parents were nice enough to leave the
babies and toddlers at home. They are too young to remember anything
anyway, WHY are they there? Get a sitter (or take a Snuggly/backpack!)

Have some consideration for others!!!

I did, I didn't take my son until he was old enough to walk, and we took
him back to the motel for a nap before returning to the park.

Why can't you do that?

NB

Don Bertino

unread,
Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

Previously wrd...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>Disneyland was NOT designed for babies!

Dang it, and Disney could of saved all the money building a Baby changing
station on Main Street, eh?

Lighten up alittle, ok? Speaking of lighting up, have you seen the strollers
all lighted up with battery powered Xmas lights during the MSEP? Pretty cool!

don
--
ber...@netcom.com ____/^\_____________________________________
Disney ascii art & / \ || FDC MCP || / \
animations are at <______\ [] [] [] || [] [] [] || [] [] [] /______>
http://www.calweb.com \----------------||----------||----------------/===
/~bertino===============\______________||__________||______________/=====

Dynamite Disney Document of the Day (available at the above FTP site):

** disney.backstage A backstage tour of Disneyworld

NB

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Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

Don Bertino wrote:

> Dang it, and Disney could of saved all the money building a Baby changing
> station on Main Street, eh?

Well, otherwise, people would be changing them in all the bathrooms, or
on the street (I've seen this in other theme parks!)

And I don't remember there being one in the "early days." (Any older
parents out there remember?)


>
> Lighten up alittle, ok? Speaking of lighting up, have you seen the strollers
> all lighted up with battery powered Xmas lights during the MSEP? Pretty cool!

On second thought, I don't really object to Disney giving out small
strollers. Are the strollers free?

If so, they could force people to use smaller ones that way.

That would help!

NB

NB

unread,
Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

Karl Guttag wrote:
>
> send...@aol.com (SENDAFAY) wrote:
> >What do you all think of DL instituting a ban on strollers after dark? I
> >like the idea, having had my ankles barked too many times!!
> >Dennis
>
> Let me bestow upon you the "Bah Humbug Award." :-).
>
> Disneyland is afterall for whole families including Kids. Kids just are not
> up to walking all day and they can give out almost without notices. A
> stroller lets them get much more out of the park.


Too bad. My parents didn't take me to the park until I could walk. And
they living in Anaheim when it opened. And, as I have posted before, my
dad got free tickets.

And I didn't take my son until he could walk, either. Some traditions
make sense!

If you have older kids, get the hotel/motel to get a sitter for you. Or
leave the baby home with Grandma/Grandpa!

NB

NB

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Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

Caleb & Michele Warner wrote:

> We are going to WDW again this December and she will be 4 1/2 (our son
> will be nearly 2). I plan on bringing our extra small stroller just in
> case she needs it.<<

Two years old is too young. Wait until they are older.


> It always amazes me how many adults feel that young children should not


> be at WDW or DL. Come on! They are places that were created with
> families in mind. <<

Yes, but not strollers in mind. I've been going since the 50's, and you
see more and more (and bigger) strollers. You see people who have
toddlers, who are obviously taking the stroller so they can pile all
their purchases on the stroller---it is more of a shopping cart than a
kid's vehicle!

I've never been to WDW, but Disneyland's streets are too crowded for
strollers.

Sure, my kids may not remember much over the long run,
> but they have a fantastic time when they are there.<<

Yeah, so you will spoil my time there for something they won't
remember???? Thanks a lot!

I don't get it.

You sound like the same kind of parents who bring their babies
everywhere, and then don't take them out when they cry, fuss, etc.

Our parents had more sense. They had more consideration for other
people.

NB

NB

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Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

Bill Speicher wrote:
>
> Fight Back!
>
> You don't have to have a child to rent a stroller (battering ram). Rent one
> and turn your next attack into a demolition derby.
>
<snip>

Yeah, I think I'll strap a Cabbage Patch doll on it, and go for it!

:)

Or bring a shopping cart, for all of those Disneyland goodies...at least
I'd be honest about why I brought it...

NB

Steven Ernst

unread,
Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

Whats considerate about leaving the youngest member of ones
family out of the family plans?
StevenWDW

Steven Ernst

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Aug 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/23/96
to

Sure maybe my two year old will not remember much about his two
week stint in Walt Disney World, but I will and so will his parents and
grandparents,and uncles,and aunt! When he gets unruly we will leave the
park to "nap". We will be considerate to his needs as well as the other
tourists. I dont see how anyone could make a statement so general as to
imply that babies or toddlers should not be taken to the happiest place
on earth. In fact it would not be the happiest place on earth if I
couldnt share it with my family,ALL of my family. To me it seems like
your complaint is with the parents or gaurdians or stroller drivers. I
assure you that my family will not be so rude or distracted. Maybe the
problem IS localized I dont recall WDW having congestion or stroller
problems. Of course I always go off season and usually have the park to
ourselves. I guess going off season,being a GOOD stroller driver, and
paying attention to the childs needs are all your asking. If thats the
case I am happy to oblige.
StevenWDW

Don Bertino

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Aug 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/24/96
to

Previously wrd...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Don Bertino wrote:
>
>> Dang it, and Disney could of saved all the money building a Baby changing
>> station on Main Street, eh?
>
>Well, otherwise, people would be changing them in all the bathrooms, or
>on the street (I've seen this in other theme parks!)

God forbid them use the changing tables in the bathrooms either... Dang those
people....

Of course, how else would we all see that cute picture of Walt Disney as a baby
if we didn't visit the MSBCS?

>And I don't remember there being one in the "early days." (Any older
>parents out there remember?)

I don't remember Indiana Jones or Star Tours in the "early days" either. This
means what?

>> Lighten up alittle, ok? Speaking of lighting up, have you seen the strollers
>> all lighted up with battery powered Xmas lights during the MSEP? Pretty cool!
>
>On second thought, I don't really object to Disney giving out small
>strollers. Are the strollers free?

I see your not serious about discussing it.

How sad.

don
--
ber...@netcom.com ____/^\_____________________________________
Disney ascii art & / \ || FDC MCP || / \
animations are at <______\ [] [] [] || [] [] [] || [] [] [] /______>
http://www.calweb.com \----------------||----------||----------------/===
/~bertino===============\______________||__________||______________/=====

Dynamite Disney Document of the Day (available at the above FTP site):

** disney.garage How to tour Walt Disney's garage (birthplace of MM)

Cynthia Price

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Aug 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/24/96
to

NB (wrd...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: Daniel, take one of those baby backpacks (you could store it in a

: locker) or if your daughter falls asleep, go back to the motel and come
: back later...

You could store the kid in a locker, too. 8)


--
Cynthia Price |
San Francisco, CA | ~~ FOG HAPPENS ~~
cyn...@crl.com |

Caleb & Michele Warner

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Aug 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/24/96
to wrd...@ix.netcom.com

NB <wrd...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Caleb & Michele Warner wrote:
>
>> We are going to WDW again this December and she will be 4 1/2 (our son
>> will be nearly 2). I plan on bringing our extra small stroller just in
>> case she needs it.<<
>
>Two years old is too young. Wait until they are older.


We took our daughter to WDW when she was 2 and she had a great time. It
was not, IMO, too young. Sure, she won't remember much of the trip, but
that would be true of any vacation we took at that time. She enjoyed it
on her level and that was fine by us. Our son will do the same this
year.


>> It always amazes me how many adults feel that young children should not
>> be at WDW or DL. Come on! They are places that were created with
>> families in mind. <<
>
>Yes, but not strollers in mind. I've been going since the 50's, and you
>see more and more (and bigger) strollers. You see people who have
>toddlers, who are obviously taking the stroller so they can pile all
>their purchases on the stroller---it is more of a shopping cart than a
>kid's vehicle!

So this must be my strategy too, is that what you are saying? I used a
stroller at WDW for my daughter, not for purchases. We used a locker for
that. The bigger strollers are more comfortable for the child.


>I've never been to WDW, but Disneyland's streets are too crowded for
>strollers.
>

Well then don't discuss what you don't know. I said we took our daughter
to WDW, not DL (although I think strollers should be allowed there too).

> Sure, my kids may not remember much over the long run,
>> but they have a fantastic time when they are there.<<
>
>Yeah, so you will spoil my time there for something they won't
>remember???? Thanks a lot!

Gee, you just said that you had never been to WDW and I certainly don't
remember seeing you, or spoiling your trip for that matter.


>I don't get it.
>
>You sound like the same kind of parents who bring their babies
>everywhere, and then don't take them out when they cry, fuss, etc.
>
>Our parents had more sense. They had more consideration for other
>people.

Now I am angry. My daughter has always been very well behaved in public.
We went to New Hampshire last month and had people coming up to us and
commenting on her (and her little brother's) good behavior in every
restaurant we ate at. I have enough respect for other people that I have
taught my children appropriate public behavior. I refuse to leave my
children out of my life. I choose instead to educate them and make them
responsible for their behavior. Yep, I guess I have very little sense
and very little consideration for others, huh?


You know I think everyone should be allowed in Disney Parks, but after
your rather rude and judgemental post I can think of some people who just
don't belong there.

Michele


Cathy Artigues

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Aug 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/24/96
to

NB <wrd...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Karl Guttag wrote:
>>
>> send...@aol.com (SENDAFAY) wrote:
>> >What do you all think of DL instituting a ban on strollers after dark? I
>> >like the idea, having had my ankles barked too many times!!
>> >Dennis
>>
>> Let me bestow upon you the "Bah Humbug Award." :-).
>>
>> Disneyland is afterall for whole families including Kids. Kids just are not
>> up to walking all day and they can give out almost without notices. A
>> stroller lets them get much more out of the park.

>Too bad. My parents didn't take me to the park until I could walk.

And you think they did the right thing? Just think - if they'd taken you
to Disneyland, you might have had some fun and not grown up to be such a
curmudgeon.

> And
>they living in Anaheim when it opened. And, as I have posted before, my
>dad got free tickets.

Then he really had no excuse to deprive you of something that would have
given you joy.

>And I didn't take my son until he could walk, either. Some traditions
>make sense!

I hope your son grows up to be more tolerant of people who don't agree
with his parents.

>If you have older kids, get the hotel/motel to get a sitter for you. Or
>leave the baby home with Grandma/Grandpa!

Also, you might want to remember that you see more babies out today than
you did 40 years ago because babies are more portable now. We have
disposable diapers; women are encouraged to breast feed instead of
having to warm bottles; strollers are lighter and smaller (if you think
people bring big ones to Disneyland, look at some pictures of strollers
from the 50s.) You might think those were the good old days, but I'll
bet most Moms from that time would want the conveniences today's Moms
have if given the opportunity.

Cathy Artigues
arti...@sisna.com


Dalkiel

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Aug 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/25/96
to http//...@ix.netcom.com

NB wrote:
>
> seamar wrote:
>
> > I can't believe someone would suggest that children in strollers
> > should not be brought to Disneyland. What an incredible suggestion.
> > And someone else wanted to ban strollers from the park! Just
> > unbelievable.
> >
> > Disneyland is for all people, including families with small children.
> > How could anyone say that children in strollers aren't welcome at
> > Disneyland?
>
> Because there are too many of them, people don't just bring those small,
> fold-up stollers, they bring these humungous things and then strap on
> all their purchases...it is too much!
>
> > But I certainly hope, on behalf
> > of all families, that no-one would think small children should not
> > be at Disneyland.

>
> Disneyland was NOT designed for babies!
>
> You see, those of us who went in the 50's remember when only a handful
> of people took strollers, most parents were nice enough to leave the
> babies and toddlers at home. They are too young to remember anything
> anyway, WHY are they there? Get a sitter (or take a Snuggly/backpack!)
>
> Have some consideration for others!!!
>
> I did, I didn't take my son until he was old enough to walk, and we took
> him back to the motel for a nap before returning to the park.
>
> Why can't you do that?
>
> NB

I agree with what most of what you're saying, NB. But I don't think that it
is fair to blame the parents. I mean, sure there are some asshole parents out there
who are completely oblivious to the needs and wants of others, but I think the real
jerks in this situation, are the people running Disneyland.
Someone earlier mentioned that Disneyland was meant for whole families.
Disneyland doesn't care about whether the families or you are happy anymore. It is a
business and is being run like one. They care about one thing. Your money. The
problem is the overcrowding that goes on there. If they put a limit as to how many
people could be in the park at one time, everyone would be happy. Maybe they could
count kids in strollers and people in wheel chairs as multiple people, like 2 or 3.

wist...@earthlink.net

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Aug 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/25/96
to

I think you missed my point. Just try and imagine if you did bring
your kid in a stroller and someone told you didn't belong there
because of that, I think you would get upset, regardless of any
inpropieties. I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone,
anywhere that you don't belong there unless you are in danger of
eminent bodily harm or trespassing. I am a supporter of going back to
your hotel room to rest if you are visiting for more than two days in
a row and is something I plan to do for the sake of the whole family
when we go to WDW and that is regardless of age. As far as Disneyland
is concerned, it is another ballgame. Being passholders, you don't
have the need to be there from opening to closing, especially if you
go as often as we do and would be unrealistic to get a room every time
we go. My son is safer in a stroller manuevering through the crowds
and we avoid them as best we can, not to mention faster than having
him walk around. That is the main reason why we use a stroller. The
next time you quote someone and you cut portions out, please indicate
that is what you did as it was in this case.
Wisterya:)

Teri Lynn Wheeler

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Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Hey There Don!! I can't stand it anymore, I have to jump in with you....

In article <bertinoD...@netcom.com>, ber...@netcom.com (Don
Bertino) wrote:

> >> Dang it, and Disney could of saved all the money building a Baby changing
> >> station on Main Street, eh?
> >
> >Well, otherwise, people would be changing them in all the bathrooms, or
> >on the street (I've seen this in other theme parks!)
>
> God forbid them use the changing tables in the bathrooms either... Dang those
> people....
>
> Of course, how else would we all see that cute picture of Walt Disney as
a baby
> if we didn't visit the MSBCS?
>

Well, I can say, I have been using the MSBCS since my son was born. He
has been going to DL with me since he was, oh, maybe 3 mo. old. That is a
great service provided for parents of young children. And, you are right
Don...those pictures are great!

> >And I don't remember there being one in the "early days." (Any older
> >parents out there remember?)
>
> I don't remember Indiana Jones or Star Tours in the "early days" either. This
> means what?
>

Well, I just got off the phone with a fellow CM friend of mine, who
checked some records for me. Lets just say that the Baby Care Center was
opened on July 17, 1955. Gee, now that would make it, say...as old as the
park itself, huh? So I guess it would be safe to assume that Walt
himself, being a Dad and all, was open to the idea of bringing diaper
donning people into his park, right?


> >> Lighten up alittle, ok? Speaking of lighting up, have you seen the
strollers
> >> all lighted up with battery powered Xmas lights during the MSEP?
Pretty cool!
> >
> >On second thought, I don't really object to Disney giving out small
> >strollers. Are the strollers free?
>
> I see your not serious about discussing it.
>
> How sad.
>

This is sad, Don. As you know, I have been bringing my little man to the
park for 5 years now, and he *still* likes to bring his stroller. He will
be the first to admit, "I get too tired walking all day, and sometimes
need a ride." He has never been a napper while at DL, stays awake from
rope drop to closing. And, he enjoys ALL OF IT! He enjoys the nighttime
& daytime stuff as much as his mommy and daddy. He is one of the biggest
Fantasmic! fans around.

So, please everyone who is NOT stroller-dependent, please remember the
park was built for everyone to enjoy..families included!!! I don't really
think this meant families without strollers, or families only until dark,
etc. I think it means families of all types at all times!

And lastly, remember, you too were once a child. So mellow out!


TeriLynn

NB

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Steven Ernst wrote:
>

>
> Whats considerate about leaving the youngest member of ones
> family out of the family plans?
>

Hey, you wait until they are old enough.


Families in the 50's did that, why can't families in the 90's? Nobody
was traumatised by waiting until they were older (and it is _your_
choice as to how many kids you have, and how you "space" them.) If you
are concerned, have only one.


Do you take your baby to the theatre, movies, etc.? Even churches have
you put little ones and babies in a nursery or Sunday School, you don't
make them sit through the whole service. It would be nice to expose
them to the Opera and the Symphony, but do you take them when they are
too small to sit through it? I hope not.

NB

NB

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Don Bertino wrote:
>
> Previously wrd...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >Don Bertino wrote:
> >
> >> Dang it, and Disney could of saved all the money building a Baby
> >And I don't remember there being one in the "early days." (Any older
> >parents out there remember?)
>
> I don't remember Indiana Jones or Star Tours in the "early days" either. This
> means what?
>

What's so great about ID and ST? Many kids don't like the drop of ST,
the wild ride of ID, etc. Many adults don't, either.

You are missing my point. They didn't put changing tables in because
they didn't think people would bring babies for all day long. They
didn't build larger streets because they didn't envision the hordes of
people using strollers, etc.


>
> I see your not serious about discussing it.
>
> How sad.
>

I have no clue why you have drawn this conclusion. Because I don't
agree with you?

How sad.

NB

NB

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Cathy Artigues wrote:
>

>
> And you think they did the right thing? Just think - if they'd taken you
> to Disneyland, you might have had some fun and not grown up to be such a
> curmudgeon.

Yes, they did the right thing. They wouldn't subject a toddler to the
hours of waiting in line, or subject the older kids and adults to the
hassle of tired, whining, crying toddlers. I'll bet I have been to
Disneyland many more times than you did. But I went when I was the
right age to enjoy it, and handle it. As a friend of mine said, what
parent would drag his 4 year old around for 10-12 hours????

>
> Then he really had no excuse to deprive you of something that would have
> given you joy.

Except they had consideration for the others in the park. And when I got
tired, my father put me ontop of his shoulders, as did most of the Dads.
He didn't need a stroller for that.

>
> >And I didn't take my son until he could walk, either. Some traditions
> >make sense!
>
> I hope your son grows up to be more tolerant of people who don't agree
> with his parents.

Well, he will have more consideration for others than the stroller
terrorists.
>

>
> Also, you might want to remember that you see more babies out today than
> you did 40 years ago because babies are more portable now.
> We have
> disposable diapers; women are encouraged to breast feed instead of
> having to warm bottles;

Oh, no, that's not why. It's because parents subject everyone to them,
and don't have the sense to stay home, or leave them at home with a
sitter. I also had disposable diapers, baby backpacks, fold-up
strollers and Snugglies. That didn't mean I took my son everywhere.

We went out to dinner this weekend, and the parents at the next booth
let their toddler crawl back and forth over the booth. They also let
him bang his Spiderman action figure all over the place. The parents
looked on an smiled. The adults at our table (baby boomers) commented
about how our parents would never have tolerated any of that. (One guy
said that how would these toddlers ever learn to sit still for school,
learn table manners, etc? Who will teach them, if the parents do not?)

The girls could bring dolls to the restaurant, but we had to let them
"sit" next to us, no way would our parents have let us play with them at
the table. And crawl over the booths? Unthinkable. Our parents were
training us for life. A restaurant is not a jungle gym.

You might think those were the good old days, but I'll
> bet most Moms from that time would want the conveniences today's Moms
> have if given the opportunity.

We do. Moms have jobs that produce income so we can pay for
babysitters.

Check out all the strollers outside of the rides. This is another
problem. Strollers take up too much room in the park.

NB

NB

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Dalkiel wrote:
>
<snip>

>The
> problem is the overcrowding that goes on there. If they put a limit as to how many
> people could be in the park at one time, everyone would be happy. Maybe they could
> count kids in strollers and people in wheel chairs as multiple people, like 2 or 3.

Now you're talking!

I agree. It sounds like the perfect solution.

NB

Steven Ernst

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Oh, I get it!
So at what age does the baby/toddler/child become an integral part of
ones family?
Hate to tell you this, but the 50's are over! Come to think about it so
are the 60's, 70's, 80's and over half of the nineties. As to where
someone could take their child. Well if the child is behaved, wherever
they darn well pleased! Maybe you were a hellion at a young age and your
parents feared how you would interact with others? Maybe the children
remind you of the stark 4 walls you were forced to stare at until your
parents decided you could encounter other forms of civilization.
Bottom line is this, YOU cant tell ME when or where to take MY children.
If anyone confronts me during my trip to WDW in regards to the stroller
, it wont be the stroller they have to worry about.

StevenWDW

shaun&karen

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Caleb & Michele Warner wrote:
>
> NB <wrd...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

<snip -- see previous posts>

> >You sound like the same kind of parents who bring their babies
> >everywhere, and then don't take them out when they cry, fuss, etc.
> >
> >Our parents had more sense. They had more consideration for other
> >people.
>
> Now I am angry. My daughter has always been very well behaved in public.
> We went to New Hampshire last month and had people coming up to us and
> commenting on her (and her little brother's) good behavior in every
> restaurant we ate at. I have enough respect for other people that I have
> taught my children appropriate public behavior. I refuse to leave my
> children out of my life. I choose instead to educate them and make them
> responsible for their behavior. Yep, I guess I have very little sense
> and very little consideration for others, huh?

Seems to me you're both right, strange as that may sound (and personal
comments ragarding anyone's character aside). Children who know how to
behave in public and are accompanied by parents who take the needs of
others into account belong everywhere, especially at Disneyland. I can
understand why, being one of those parents, you are offended. But
surely you must have noticed that children who have NOT been taught how
to behave (and who therefore are generally accompanied, but not
necessarily supervised by, parents who don't give a wet slap about other
people's comfort) are becoming more and more common. Unfortunately,
people like you and your kids are becoming less common.

It seems that the issue here is a bigger one than strollers. A couple
people, including me, have rasied the issue of crying, fussing babies
who are allowed to cry and fuss unchecked, in public, for long periods
of time. You might add to that the glorious fun of being at a table in
any restaurant in the park (or anywhere else) and having someone else's
child run up to your table at full speed, ignored (or smiled at
indulgently) by its parents and grab something, reach our for something
hot, pull someone's hair, run into someone's chair, or give in to
whatever other natural impulse comes along.

Don't misundertand. I love children. I once let a strange baby suck on
my sunglasses throughout an entire lunch. But children who detract from
the pleasurable experiences of others, whether eating, watching
Fantasmic! or seeing a movie, are a menace.

Parents like you who raise thier children to be responsible for
themselves are a double blessing and deserve double praise; your
children ARE responsible for themselves, which is a healthy sign for now
and the future, and you deserve the credit for teaching them about
personal responsibility. But the kids who aren't taught any better
truly are NOT resonsible for themselves--how can they behave better,
when they don't know they're behaving badly? I once sat through (quite
literally) 40 straight minutes of listening to the baby two tables away
crying and screaming, in that lung-emptying, face-reddening way, at the
Monorail Cafe. Some people can't stand fingernails on a chalkboard.
They don't bother me. But a crying, screeching, uninterrupted baby at
top volume makes my teeth itch. I cannot tell you how it sets my nerves
on edge, as well as making me want to go and comfort the poor baby. It
completely ruins my dining/Fantasmic viewing/etc. experience and mkes me
feel as if the money I've spent for the experience has been thrown
away--no, stolen, by the inconsiderate parents.

After 20 minutes or so of hell at the Monorail Cafe, I politely
requested our waitress to ask the parents to take the baby out of the
restaurant until it could stop crying, since it was botehring other
cutomers. (They had primarily been daling with the problem by ignoring
the baby and eating their own breakfastas, with a half-hearted effort to
calm it down by offering it a piece of toast every now and again.) She
pretended she didn't hear me, even after I had repeated myself loudly
and distinctly.

I left the untipped waitress and the restaurant after my meal, firmly
convinced that the parents of said child would undoubtedly head over to
the park, put baby in a stroller, and ram their self-involved,
unthinking way through the crowds. I felt like giving them a sign to
carry, reading, "Ankles and ears, beware! Our entitlement to enjoy
ourselves at the comfort of others knows no bounds! Make way for the
special people and their baby's stroller!"

If I sound like a bitter child-hater to you, let me reiterate that I DO
like children, very much. I do NOT like irresponsible parents who
practice selective deafness (and, when it comes to strollers, selective
blindness). Over the years, I have turned several lost kids over to
CMs. One was a child who simply sat down and cried while his family
walked on without noticing him--or my attempts to get their attention.
As infants and toddlers, the children of inattentive parents are a
nuisance. A little older, and they are lost kids in the park. At 12,
will they be allowed to try and grab the right shuttle to meet the
family back at the hotel?

I can understand why you were offended; those of us who are annoyed and
concerned should be on our knees thanking you and parents like you who
understand about personal responsiblity and the need to behave well in
public. You are probably still in the majority. But the minority is
growing and is highly visible. If we sometimes begin to despair and
talk as if ALL parents were inconsiderate of others and ALL
stroller-pushers were hazards, it is because we are frustrated, fed up,
and terribly concerned about the increasing number of children whose
parents care little for their manners--or their safety.
>
I'm sorry to run on like this, especially since this is sort of
off-topic, but it seems that this kind of parental neglect and "we're
special; up yours" attitude is what we're really all complaing in about
in the stroller threads. I can understand why parents who do try and do
care are offended by the wording of the complaints, but I am sure the
vast majority of them are not directed at people like you.

Thanks for being such a conscientious parent. People like you make
children our hope for the future and make seeing kids of all ages at
Disneyland a pleasure.

--Karen

Steven Ernst

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

NB,

The above message was written in anger and for some of its
content I apologize. I vowed that I would never Flame anyone on the
internet because I see it as a waste of bandwidth. I again apologize, I
really am much more civil. I will not tell you how to raise your
children, all I expect from you is the same.
Perhaps when we chat again the content will reflect our love of
Disney.
Sincerely
StevenWDW

Caleb & Michele Warner

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to wrd...@ix.netcom.com

NB <wrd...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>You might think those were the good old days, but I'll
>> bet most Moms from that time would want the conveniences today's Moms
>> have if given the opportunity.
>
>We do. Moms have jobs that produce income so we can pay for
>babysitters.

Not this mom! I have a college degree and could have a high paying job
but instead I choose to spend my time with my children. I spend my time
reading to them, playing with them and teaching them right from wrong. I
think you may be blaming us all for the faults of a few. Yes, it is
wrong for parents to allow young children to run around restaurants or
climb over the booths, but that doesn't mean children don't belong there.
It means that the parents should teach the children appropriate
behavior. People often stop by our table and comment on the excellent
behavior of our two children (4 & 1 1/2). I truly believe that they have
such excellent manners *because* they have been coming with us since they
were infants. They understand what is expected of them and behave
accordingly.

Michele


Steven Ernst

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Caleb & Michele Warner wrote:
>

Michele,

Thank you very much for that post! Its what I wanted to say in
my post but I failed miserably.
StevenWDW

Lynn Gustafson

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

In article <32217F...@ix.netcom.com> NB <wrd...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>From: NB <wrd...@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Stroller Terrorists
>Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:41:52 +0000

>Cathy Artigues wrote:
>>

>>
>> And you think they did the right thing? Just think - if they'd taken you
>> to Disneyland, you might have had some fun and not grown up to be such a
>> curmudgeon.

>Yes, they did the right thing. They wouldn't subject a toddler to the
>hours of waiting in line, or subject the older kids and adults to the
>hassle of tired, whining, crying toddlers. I'll bet I have been to
>Disneyland many more times than you did. But I went when I was the
>right age to enjoy it, and handle it. As a friend of mine said, what
>parent would drag his 4 year old around for 10-12 hours????

>Check out all the strollers outside of the rides. This is another

>problem. Strollers take up too much room in the park.

>NB
It seems to me that the problem here isn't stollers. It is 1)overcrowding and
2) rude patrons, many of whom are pushing strollers.

NB seems to feel that *all* children are the problem. I say that *some*
parents are the problem. I have been coming to the park since I was 3 months
old and I've always loved it. I first brought my niece when she was 1 1/2 and
she loved it. However, I let her chose the pace and the rides. The only
*rides* we went on were the carrosel and the train. We also walked through
Sleeping Beauty. We mainly looked at water and waterfalls, which she loved.
She loved the Snow White Grotto (it's still one of her favorites) and all of
the flowers. We were there for about 5 hours and that includes 45 minutes in
the car for a brief nap.
Yes, children don't enjoy waiting in long lines; neither do adults. And I must
say that I've seen more badly behaved parents then children over all.
I agree with NB that children should not be forced to stand in lines when they
are tired and hungry. They should also not be forced to go on rides they don't
want to. Usually when this happens, there is a parent behind it how is trying
to get their 'money's worth'. These parents are worse behaved then their
children.
However, it is quite possible to take a young child to Disneyland and make it
an enjoyable experience for the child, the parents, and anyone else about.

Don Bertino

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

Hi Teri! (What's been keeping you)

Previously twhe...@pop.long-beach.va.gov wrote:
>Hey There Don!! I can't stand it anymore, I have to jump in with you....

:)

>In article <bertinoD...@netcom.com>, ber...@netcom.com (Don
>Bertino) wrote:
>
>> >> Dang it, and Disney could of saved all the money building a Baby changing
>> >> station on Main Street, eh?
>> >
>> >Well, otherwise, people would be changing them in all the bathrooms, or
>> >on the street (I've seen this in other theme parks!)
>>
>> God forbid them use the changing tables in the bathrooms either... Dang those
>> people....
>>
>> Of course, how else would we all see that cute picture of Walt Disney as
>a baby if we didn't visit the MSBCS?
>>
>Well, I can say, I have been using the MSBCS since my son was born. He
>has been going to DL with me since he was, oh, maybe 3 mo. old. That is a
>great service provided for parents of young children. And, you are right
>Don...those pictures are great!
>

>> >And I don't remember there being one in the "early days." (Any older
>> >parents out there remember?)
>>
>> I don't remember Indiana Jones or Star Tours in the "early days" either. This
>> means what?
>>

>Well, I just got off the phone with a fellow CM friend of mine, who
>checked some records for me. Lets just say that the Baby Care Center was
>opened on July 17, 1955. Gee, now that would make it, say...as old as the
>park itself, huh? So I guess it would be safe to assume that Walt
>himself, being a Dad and all, was open to the idea of bringing diaper
>donning people into his park, right?

Ding......

>> >> Lighten up alittle, ok? Speaking of lighting up, have you seen the
>strollers
>> >> all lighted up with battery powered Xmas lights during the MSEP?
>Pretty cool!
>> >
>> >On second thought, I don't really object to Disney giving out small
>> >strollers. Are the strollers free?
>>

>> I see your not serious about discussing it.
>>
>> How sad.
>>

>This is sad, Don. As you know, I have been bringing my little man to the
>park for 5 years now, and he *still* likes to bring his stroller. He will
>be the first to admit, "I get too tired walking all day, and sometimes
>need a ride." He has never been a napper while at DL, stays awake from
>rope drop to closing. And, he enjoys ALL OF IT! He enjoys the nighttime
>& daytime stuff as much as his mommy and daddy. He is one of the biggest
>Fantasmic! fans around.

No doubt. Heck *I* get tired... But I'd hate to see the stroller big enough
for me... :) Now if there where some gurneys being pushed around, maybe
you'd have a point... :)

Stroller's are a fact of life for parents. Some people are curtious, some
people are jerks, whiether their parents are not. I have been bugged a
heck of alot more by teenagers and adults acting stupidily at Disneyland
then by baby's and kid's *and* their strollers. Should we ban them as well?

Your attitude is self-rightous and pompus. It's your way or no way. If you
want to go there with a stroller, fine. Why not talk about the 99% of the
people that use a stroller in the correct way? Ever heard throwing the
baby out with the bath water?

don (Talk to you later Teri...)

*duckman out*


--
ber...@netcom.com ____/^\_____________________________________
Disney ascii art & / \ || FDC MCP || / \
animations are at <______\ [] [] [] || [] [] [] || [] [] [] /______>
http://www.calweb.com \----------------||----------||----------------/===
/~bertino===============\______________||__________||______________/=====

Dynamite Disney Document of the Day (available at the above FTP site):

** disney.monorails Detailed information of the Disneyworld Monorail

naomi pardue

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

NB (wrd...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> Cathy Artigues wrote:

> Yes, they did the right thing. They wouldn't subject a toddler to the
> hours of waiting in line, or subject the older kids and adults to the
> hassle of tired, whining, crying toddlers. I'll bet I have been to
> Disneyland many more times than you did. But I went when I was the
> right age to enjoy it, and handle it. As a friend of mine said, what
> parent would drag his 4 year old around for 10-12 hours????

We 'dragged our 3 year old around for 10 hours.' We will drag our almost
5 year old around for 10 hours' again in a couple of months.

And, you know what? We didn't spend 'hours waiting in line.' (Oh, total,
over the course of the whole 4 day visit, certainly, but not in any
single line.) And she didn't get tired, whine or cry. (She was the
freshest one in the bunch, because SHE got to ride and be carried much of
the time, while we walked and carried her!) She also had a very good
time, and is eagerly looking forward to our next visit to WDW. (Where we
will probably rent a stroller at Epcot, becuase it's so big, but we'll
see how she does on foot at the smaller parks.)

What do you conside 'the right age to enjoy it?' Is having a wonderful
time on Dumbo the Flying Elephant not sufficient enjoyment? Is meeting
Mickey Mouse and hugging Tigger for the first time not worthwhile?

> Oh, no, that's not why. It's because parents subject everyone to them,
> and don't have the sense to stay home, or leave them at home with a
> sitter. I also had disposable diapers, baby backpacks, fold-up
> strollers and Snugglies. That didn't mean I took my son everywhere.

"Yes, little girl. We're going on a lovely family vacationto Disneyland.
You can stay home with a babysitter. Maybe we'll send you a post-card."
Yeah... right...

> We went out to dinner this weekend, and the parents at the next booth
> let their toddler crawl back and forth over the booth. They also let

If it's THEIR booth, what's the problem? Why does it disturb you?

> The girls could bring dolls to the restaurant, but we had to let them
> "sit" next to us, no way would our parents have let us play with them at
> the table. And crawl over the booths? Unthinkable. Our parents were
> training us for life. A restaurant is not a jungle gym.

Your parents sound like they were very strict with you. That's fine.
(Though it is sad that their strictness resulted in such intorence in
their children...)
However, parents who allow their children to play (relatively quietly) in
restaurants are hardly falling down on their training... Perhaps you'd
prefer to listen to the child screaming and kicking the table becuase
he's bored out of his skull, from being forced to sit utterly still and
silent for an hour or more?

> Check out all the strollers outside of the rides. This is another
> problem. Strollers take up too much room in the park.

If you don't like it, YOU stay home!

Naomi

akcalsyn

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to Steven Ernst

Steven-
As someone who is planning my second and third trip to wdw so I'll have
done all the things that I would regret not doing BEFORE trying to get
pregnant and having a "for kid" trip, I have one word for you - BRAVO!

I doubt anyone was offended by your comments. Although your comments had
some "flamey" elements, I think they were perfectly reasonable for a
loving parent. I agree with everything you said. I think that we should
raise well-behaved children and I CANNOT believe that adults would say
things in front of kids in the Disney theme parks. I have seen the joy
the little ones had. And I've seen the cranky ones whose parents were
too selfish to take them back to the hotel when the children are
exhausted. My pleasure in the parks is increased immensely when I see
an awestruck tot in his/her stroller experiencing "the magic." Thanks
for caring enough to raise your children well and bring them to the
parks for OUR enjoyment as well as theirs!

Steven Ernst wrote:
> <snip>


> The above message was written in anger and for some of its
> content I apologize. I vowed that I would never Flame anyone on the
> internet because I see it as a waste of bandwidth. I again apologize, I
> really am much more civil. I will not tell you how to raise your
> children, all I expect from you is the same.
> Perhaps when we chat again the content will reflect our love of
> Disney.
> Sincerely
> StevenWDW

--
Alicia Koury Calsyn
109 days til wdw
akca...@ghgcorp.com
akca...@hbu.edu


"It's hard to be b-b-b-brave when you are such a small animal!"

P-p-p-piglet (me)

JD

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

> So, please everyone who is NOT stroller-dependent, please remember the
> park was built for everyone to enjoy..families included!!! I don't
really
> think this meant families without strollers, or families only until
dark,
> etc. I think it means families of all types at all times!
>
> And lastly, remember, you too were once a child. So mellow out!

Teri, I think your message was good from your point of view, but did you
ever think about the crowd control. When I went to Disneyland I hated
trying to get around people who had stollers in front of them, and the
kids hanging out of them, the parents would have to stop when their kids
threw merchandise out the side of the cart, and some parents even had
those one strollers that hold three kids. I'm supprised the stroller
didn't have a gasoline motor back-up.

What I'm trying to get to is that strollers seem to cause problems with
the crowds. I always see parents driving strollers looking off in to the
distance at one of the attractions, and hitting someone in the ankles. And
sometimes people or the kid get hurt when an adult falls.

Also, where do you put the stroller when you do on a ride? We we're at
the park once and a log of splash mountain had a stroller fly out of it in
to the water, and an employee was quick to pull it out.

Some of these things I have said are pretty serious, so why can't people
leave their little kids at the infant car center at the entrance of the
park?

Have a nice Day!

JD
jo...@cio.net

gjw

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to

This thread seems to be taking an ugly turn folks. And it doesn't
really have much to do with Disneyland anymore.

I think we've all had our say on the issue. How about letting this
particular thread die a merciful death?

Dalkiel

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to http//...@ix.netcom.com

You're a stupid inconsiderate bitch.

Dalkiel

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Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to http//...@ix.netcom.com

I do make comments to those obnoxious parents with strollers at D-land,
and if you happened to be the one that I amke a comment to, I can
guarantee that it would not be me that would be doing the worrying.

Dalkiel

unread,
Aug 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/26/96
to http//...@ix.netcom.com
> NB,

>
> The above message was written in anger and for some of its
> content I apologize. I vowed that I would never Flame anyone on the
> internet because I see it as a waste of bandwidth. I again apologize, I
> really am much more civil. I will not tell you how to raise your
> children, all I expect from you is the same.
> Perhaps when we chat again the content will reflect our love of
> Disney.
> Sincerely
> StevenWDW

NB's point isn't about banning poeple from D-land. It is about
consideration for those who inhabit the area around you.

Mark DeLuca

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to JD
Ya and lets keep them out of movie thaeters and stores and resturaunts,
keep them in the house so the nieghbors cant here them. Just let them
out when its time to pay for your retirement, and the national debt and
clean up all the messes we so selfishly and greedily intend to leave
them. Who goes without health care? Who goes without proper nutrition?
Who's taxes are going to take up over half they're paycheck, and wont
have retirement benefits? who has to raise themselves because there
parents already have to work twice as hard to just survive.

THE CHILDREN ARE THE ONLY PURE AND DECENT THING LEFT ON THIS PLANET
and every one better take a look and move out of there way. Strollers?
give me a break, instead of tryin to push your way past them help them
out and get out of there way.

Set an example to the children show courtousy, thay're going to have
a hard time surviving in the mess thats left them. If they see a bunch
of greedy selfish elders they why should they try to struggle to pay for
the mess. Then what comes of this country?

Robin Witten

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

NB wrote:
>
> Bill Speicher wrote:
> >
> > Fight Back!
> >
> > You don't have to have a child to rent a stroller (battering ram). Rent one
> > and turn your next attack into a demolition derby.
> >
> <snip>
>
> Yeah, I think I'll strap a Cabbage Patch doll on it, and go for it!
>
> :)
>
> Or bring a shopping cart, for all of those Disneyland goodies...at least
> I'd be honest about why I brought it...
>
> NBAre you jealous because they have somewhere to put their packages and you don't?
Just because someone has a stroller doesn't mean the child is going to remain in it the
entire duration. A child may walk part of the time and ride part of the time. It keeps
the child from getting as tired and allows both the parents and child to enjoy the park
more. If a child is out of the stroller the packages go in, this permits the parents to
have free hands to keep the child from getting seperated from them. If the stroller has
a basket or the bags can be hung on the stroller why shouldn't the parent use these
options. Is it so terrible to use the resources you have available? I certainly would
prefer a stroller to a screaming child being dragged through the park.
People don't need strollers to get into everyone's way. They do it all the time by just
stopping and standing in the middle of traffic patterns, or even better, at the bottom
of escalators. It's not strollers but the simple lack of consideration for others that
causes problems.
You may or may not get in other people’s way but you certainly show a lack consideration
for others. You go on vacation to the most child oriented place on earth and complain
because of the children. Not Everyone has a grandmother/grandfather close by to take
care of their children. Besides, isn't it pretty inconsiderate to leave your children
with reletives while you go have fun. What about the child? And unlike you, not
everyone wants to leave their children behind. That's why they chose to go to DL/WDW in
the first place.
Perhaps parents are just more considerate of their children these days. They take them
on vacation and take strollers so they don't get so tired. Pretty selfish to think of
their children instead of you.
By the way, I've never taken a child or stroller to DL/WDW. I've been to WDW several
times and have never been bothered by the strollers or the children. I do intend to
take a child and stroller this year. We're celebrating our 10th wedding anniversary and
wanted to go somewhere we all could enjoy. We don't care if she remembers it or not. We
just want to have fun and next time it will all be new again.


T.R. @ USA

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

....jus' ma' two cent nuttin' mo'....

We all have "rights" to do what we want, but,
your rights END where my rights BEGIN.
Just as I can not tell you what to do, you can not
tell me what to do.

You have a right to bring your family to WDW,
I have a right not to be tripped up by your stroller,
or hit in the ankles, or slowed down, while in a
store, walking around, getting in/out of
transportation, etc.
I have a right not to be cramped in the monorail
or at an attraction, or whatever because your
stroller takes up additional space and my time.
I have a right to enjoy myself with out hearing your
very young child cry, whine, carryon during an
attraction, while at dinner, or while enjoying the sites.
I too have rights, and I want to enjoy my vacation just
as much as you. We *both* have no doubt paid alot
of money to go to WDW and relax, to be away from
work, to have some peace of mind.
I will defend your right to do what you want, but understand
I, and many other people have our rights too.
signed,
T.R. former MK CM


Teri Lynn Wheeler

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

In article <01bb93ad.677a1560$6b2a...@jond.ibm.net>, "JD" <jo...@cio.net> wrote:

> > So, please everyone who is NOT stroller-dependent, please remember the
> > park was built for everyone to enjoy..families included!!! I don't
> really
> > think this meant families without strollers, or families only until
> dark,
> > etc. I think it means families of all types at all times!
> >
> > And lastly, remember, you too were once a child. So mellow out!
>
> Teri, I think your message was good from your point of view, but did you
> ever think about the crowd control. When I went to Disneyland I hated
> trying to get around people who had stollers in front of them, and the
> kids hanging out of them, the parents would have to stop when their kids
> threw merchandise out the side of the cart, and some parents even had
> those one strollers that hold three kids. I'm supprised the stroller
> didn't have a gasoline motor back-up.
>

JD,
Firstly, yes....I have dealth with crowd control much more then you
realize (as a CM and all :) And believe me, when it comes to guests with
strollers, I have dealth with my share of that too, as a CM. One of the
rides I operate allows strollers on it (not DL strollers, but private
owned ones) and I will be the first to admit, there are guests out there
that have little if no manners or respect when manuvering them.
BUT....they are paying guests, just like you and everyone else that enters
those gates. I think Don said it best, should we also disallow teenagers
that run infront of people, block pathways, etc? Should we ban the
foriegn tour groups because they too can become an inconvenience to pass
at times? Should we ban the handicapped?

You then mention that parents need to "retrieve merchandise that kids drop
out of the strollers", well am I to assume you have never dropped
something and stopped in your tracks to pick it up? Or you have never
decided when heading one way to make a turn without notice and just
possibly cut someone off in doing so? And, just think, without the
strollers to hold them and all their goodies, they would be dropping them
all over the place as they struggle to walk in the crowds, holding mommies
hand and their toys, and their churro, etc.


> What I'm trying to get to is that strollers seem to cause problems with
> the crowds. I always see parents driving strollers looking off in to the
> distance at one of the attractions, and hitting someone in the ankles. And
> sometimes people or the kid get hurt when an adult falls.
>

Cut the guests with children some slack. Parents (again for the most
part, remember the bad apple deal) try to manuver those stollers best they
can. Accidents happen. I could pretty much assure you, there is no
parent out there in the park with the attitude of "I'll just plow those
other guests down and get them outta my way"....And yes, I do look in
other directions while pushing my sons stroller, but I also keep a close
eye on where I am going. Sort of like driving a car and reading the road
signs at the same time.

> Also, where do you put the stroller when you do on a ride? We we're at
> the park once and a log of splash mountain had a stroller fly out of it in
> to the water, and an employee was quick to pull it out.
>

Where do I put the stroller when not in use? Well, depending on the
"land" we are in at the time; Toontown (which, BTW, was BUILT with the
little people in mind) I park it right past the train overpass. Same with
Fantasyland (another example of a little persons oasis) we park our
stroller by PeterPan. Now you mention Splash, well I got news for you.
Strollers are not allowed on that ride. Actually, I can only name two
rides which a stroller is allowed on; Steam Trains and Monorail. As for
Splash, the CM's there are stationed at different locations to assure
strollers are not brought in the que past the point where guests are
checked for height and enter the building. There are also CM's
grouping/loading/dispaching the ride. I find it increadibly hard to
believe that a stroller made it past the enterance CM, the grouper CM, the
loading CM, and the dispaching/control tower CM.

> Some of these things I have said are pretty serious, so why can't people
> leave their little kids at the infant car center at the entrance of the
> park?
>

Leave them where???? The infant care center is a baby care STATION.
Meaning, there are changing tables there (as in many restrooms too). They
also provide a feeding/nursing area. As well as other various
parental/small child needs. This is not like the dog kennal. You can't
just drop your baby off and pick him up when the day is done. Plus, I
feel compelled to restate; the park was build for all to enjoy. For
families small and large. For kids of all ages. I do find it sad that
you don't see the validity of strollers at DL. Wouldn't you rather see
the little tykes confined to a stroller then weaving and dodging in and
out of your legs (while the parent chases them)? Talk about being tripped
and/or falling.

> Have a nice Day!
>
and you too!
Teri

Barry Rozas

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

oth sides have a point.

It *is* the parent's fault, as Alicia pointed out, for bringing the
child and then not being responsible enough to rest them.
Unfortunately, I have made similar mistakes, because it was my first
child (and hey I'm not expert!), but my family learned from them. Last
August, when we went during a terribly hot period, we brought our 3 year
old. Crazy! Insane! is what people told me...but we had A Plan. It was
to be back at our hotel during the afternoon to rest and recuperate.

The first day, the two kids (two different families together) were
holding up so well, against our better judgment we kept on touring after
12:00. BIG MISTAKE. By 1 or 2:00 the kids were cranky, the parents were
cranky and everything was a mess.

For the rest of the trip, we made sure we were at the Hotel by Lunch
time, and the kids were great from them on. Oh, and one main reason was
because the Strollers we used kept our kids fresh all during the
morning.

Like I told my wife and the friends who thought we were nuts, you have a
birthday party for your one-year old, but not for him/her cause he/she
wont' remember it...you have it for you and your family to celebrate. My
three year old will never remember the details, but we will.

Barry

akcalsyn

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to Caleb & Michele Warner

Michele-
Well said! I hope I get a chance to meet your little darlings in
December. For everyone "little one" who was kept past his/her bedtime
and was cranky, there were DOZENS of them who made the trip so much
nicer for us (~adults)! Although still child-like, I cannot compete with
the joy on a 2 year olds face when HE sees Tigger for the first time!
Thanks for giving us a chance to see that and enjoying the parks through
your kids eyes!

--
Alicia Koury Calsyn
akca...@ghgcorp.com
akca...@hbu.edu
ktsca...@aol.com
FDC Research Librarian/Fact Checker
FDC Travel Consultant - Texas

JD

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

Umm, Did someone take this topic of conversation a little further than it
needed to be. You make strollers sound like their a whole big issue that
the goverment needs to put research in to or something. I don't think
strollers should be

> out of movie thaeters and stores and resturaunts,
> keep them in the house so the nieghbors cant here them.
I was saying you shouldn't have strollers where their are so many people
(Up to 23,000 people a day) Disneyland is getting way to crowded, so
don't think that after me and my followers get strollers banned from
Disneyland we're going to go on and wipe them from the face of the planet.
That would be stupid. I would just like to see other people (namely
parents with three little kids) have a little respect for those people
who wait to take their kids to DL until they could walk and actually ride
the rides, (You know 48" or taller to ride.)

Also, what is the purpose of taking a kid who can't even ride most of the
world famous attractions.
Other people on the Disney Newsgroup say that waiting until they are older
deprives them of their right to go to DL or some crap. GET REAL!

JD
jo...@cio.net

----------
> From: Mark DeLuca <mar...@cp.duluth.mn.us>
> To: JD <jo...@cio.net>
> Subject: Re: Strollers are a pain in the butt (especially when one runs
in to you and you fall on your butt)
> Date: Tuesday, August 27, 1996 5:12 AM


>
> JD wrote:
> >
> > > So, please everyone who is NOT stroller-dependent, please remember
the
> > > park was built for everyone to enjoy..families included!!! I don't
> > really
> > > think this meant families without strollers, or families only until
> > dark,
> > > etc. I think it means families of all types at all times!
> > >
> > > And lastly, remember, you too were once a child. So mellow out!
> >
> > Teri, I think your message was good from your point of view, but did
you
> > ever think about the crowd control. When I went to Disneyland I hated
> > trying to get around people who had stollers in front of them, and the
> > kids hanging out of them, the parents would have to stop when their
kids
> > threw merchandise out the side of the cart, and some parents even had
> > those one strollers that hold three kids. I'm supprised the stroller
> > didn't have a gasoline motor back-up.
> >

> > What I'm trying to get to is that strollers seem to cause problems
with
> > the crowds. I always see parents driving strollers looking off in to
the
> > distance at one of the attractions, and hitting someone in the ankles.
And
> > sometimes people or the kid get hurt when an adult falls.
> >

> > Also, where do you put the stroller when you do on a ride? We we're
at
> > the park once and a log of splash mountain had a stroller fly out of
it in
> > to the water, and an employee was quick to pull it out.
> >

> > Some of these things I have said are pretty serious, so why can't
people
> > leave their little kids at the infant car center at the entrance of
the
> > park?
> >

> > Have a nice Day!
> >
> > JD
> > jo...@cio.net
> Ya and lets keep them out of movie thaeters and stores and resturaunts,
> keep them in the house so the nieghbors cant here them. Just let them
> out when its time to pay for your retirement, and the national debt and
> clean up all the messes we so selfishly and greedily intend to leave
> them. Who goes without health care? Who goes without proper nutrition?
> Who's taxes are going to take up over half they're paycheck, and wont
> have retirement benefits? who has to raise themselves because there
> parents already have to work twice as hard to just survive.
>
> THE CHILDREN ARE THE ONLY PURE AND DECENT THING LEFT ON THIS PLANET
> and every one better take a look and move out of there way. Strollers?
> give me a break, instead of tryin to push your way past them help them
> out and get out of there way.
>
> Set an example to the children show courtousy, thay're going to have
> a hard time surviving in the mess thats left them. If they see a bunch
> of greedy selfish elders they why should they try to struggle to pay for
> the mess. Then what comes of this country?


> Mark DeLuca <mar...@cp.duluth.mn.us> wrote in article
<3222E6...@cp.duluth.mn.us>...


> JD wrote:
> >
> > > So, please everyone who is NOT stroller-dependent, please remember
the
> > > park was built for everyone to enjoy..families included!!! I don't
> > really
> > > think this meant families without strollers, or families only until
> > dark,
> > > etc. I think it means families of all types at all times!
> > >
> > > And lastly, remember, you too were once a child. So mellow out!
> >
> > Teri, I think your message was good from your point of view, but did
you
> > ever think about the crowd control. When I went to Disneyland I hated
> > trying to get around people who had stollers in front of them, and the
> > kids hanging out of them, the parents would have to stop when their
kids
> > threw merchandise out the side of the cart, and some parents even had
> > those one strollers that hold three kids. I'm supprised the stroller
> > didn't have a gasoline motor back-up.
> >

> > What I'm trying to get to is that strollers seem to cause problems
with
> > the crowds. I always see parents driving strollers looking off in to
the
> > distance at one of the attractions, and hitting someone in the ankles.
And
> > sometimes people or the kid get hurt when an adult falls.
> >

> > Also, where do you put the stroller when you do on a ride? We we're
at
> > the park once and a log of splash mountain had a stroller fly out of
it in
> > to the water, and an employee was quick to pull it out.
> >

> > Some of these things I have said are pretty serious, so why can't
people
> > leave their little kids at the infant car center at the entrance of
the
> > park?
> >

Caleb & Michele Warner

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to jo...@cio.net

"JD" <jo...@cio.net> wrote:
>That would be stupid. I would just like to see other people (namely
>parents with three little kids) have a little respect for those people
>who wait to take their kids to DL until they could walk and actually ride
>the rides, (You know 48" or taller to ride.)

Why should those of us who choose to take our children with us when they
are young respect your views and opinions when you clearly do not respect
ours? Respect goes both ways. Oh, and I can think of only 5 rides with
height restrictions and not all of those are as much as 48".

>Also, what is the purpose of taking a kid who can't even ride most of the
>world famous attractions.

Perhaps some people don't see that as the main draw of Disney parks.
There is a lot more there than the height-restricted rides. One of the
great joys of visiting a Disney park, at least for me, is sitting on a
bench and watching the world go by. Big drops and wild turns are just a
small part of the excitement.

Michele

Tony Oliver

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to


Let me get this straight - you go on vacation to a place designed and
built for children...then complain about all the children that are
there? Do you also make it a habit of vacationing in France and then
complaining about all the foreigners? Lighten up! Life's too short!

Steven Ernst

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

I think everyone will agree with me here that your comment was
uncalled for. There are no B!tche$, @$$h0le$, etc. on this newsgroup.
Its one thing to disagree but namecalling is uneccesary. I would rather
this thread end than deteriorate into a flamewar.

StevenWDW

David Crapenhoft

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to
> I do make comments to those obnoxious parents with strollers at D-land,
> and if you happened to be the one that I amke a comment to, I can
> guarantee that it would not be me that would be doing the worrying.

I don't think strollers and rude people are are going anywhere fast so
lets all go to therapy to try to deal with each other! And maybe, just
maybe this thread will go the way of the dodo!


Lets all just deal with it and forget about it.

Steven Ernst

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

Well good for you if you make those comments to OBNOXIOUS
parents. As for your threat, I'll assume it was made in haste just like
the post you replied to.
StevenWDW
P.s.
There would be no need for a comment to someone who was not causing
trouble.

JD

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

To Teri,
When you say that strollers shouldn't be banned because then running
teenagers would then want to be banned or something similar to that, isn't
skateboards. Sure a skateboard relieves some of the tension of having to
walk so far, and I hope you don't get that stereotypical view that a
teenager with dyed hair, tattoos, and unmentionables pierced only rides
skateboards.

Also, you said that a stroller provides a place for merchandise to be
placed, and asked would I rather kids carying each pice, and more likely
to drop it. Are you telling me that DL does not give bags to put
merchandise in when they by it?

And when you say that DL was built for everyone to enjoy, that does not
mean strollers. Kids who can walk should walk, and when they are tired,
they can sit on a bench (if they can find a vacant one). Also, please
don't suggest that I would like wheelchairs to be banned aswell, that
would be ridiculous. Someone in a wheelchair should have all the
priviledges any one else does, but stollers are different. A kid does not
have to have a stroller to get around.

Besides are differences,
hope you have a nice day right back at ya!

JD
jo...@cio.net

Also, I don't get to read this group much (usually) so if you reply, could
you please e-mail me, thanks!

> twhe...@pop.long-beach.va.gov (Teri Lynn Wheeler) wrote in article
<twheeler-270...@198.183.131.118>...

gjw

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

Geez, now it has spread to TWO threads. C'mon, folks, let's let this
issue die. Both sides are beating a dead horse. It's not going
anywhere, and it's just causing hard feelings.

JD

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to


> npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (naomi pardue) wrote in article
<4vt3qf$f...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>...

Naomi,
I think your views on parenting are just to darn loose. A family across
the street let their kids growup , doing the same things (crawling on
tabletops and such) and never really teaching them that other people might
not like what they are doing. Now those kids are teenagers, the parents
have no control, and I can say that they are not the nicest of people.
Especially their daughter who was arrested.

So, maybe when you say:


> Your parents sound like they were very strict with you. That's fine.
> (Though it is sad that their strictness resulted in such intorence in
> their children...)

it turns out your no different than what you just described.

JD
jo...@cio.net

Also, e-mail me if your going to respond, I'm one of many people who are
tired of people saying stuff on these groups, and not leaving their e-mail
so other users don't have to scan thorugh these type of messages hoping
that they have something to do with DL.

Croooow

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to
> I don't think strollers and rude people are are going anywhere fast so
> lets all go to therapy to try to deal with each other! And maybe, just
> maybe this thread will go the way of the dodo!
>
> Lets all just deal with it and forget about it.

Oh my...well I do have to agree. BABIES have no buisness being anywhere they can annoy others.
I mean, they arn't even sentient enough to ever have memories of the experience, so why bother?
Thats much grandma is for right?!
However, at what age a child is able to journey with the others, I would have to say depended on
the child. Some children are just find at age 3, while others shouldn't be allowed at age 18.
It all depends on the child. But then again, why the strollers? The point is the MAKE THE CHILD WALK
to tired them out, so they go to sleep and let everyone rest peacefully. I get so frustrated to see
any child who is in Kindergarden or older in a stroller. I stoped using mine at such an age that I
don't even remember having one! Whats up with this? No wonder the kids of today grow up fat lazy
nintendo/sega geeks who happily are force fed anything the corporate giants want them to swallow.

-----------------------------------------------
Visit Croooow's Ultimate Guide to the Movies!
http://home.earthlink.net/~Croooow
New - BORDELLO OF BLOOD / ESCAPE FROM LA
Pluss Most of the other movies of the summer!

cay...@bibiana.com

unread,
Aug 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/27/96
to

Your last sentence reminded of a situation that happened to a friend.

A few years ago when her youngest (who is very well behaved) was about 4
years old the family went to Disneyland. While walking around the Rivers
of America they were being harrassed by these two women. These women kept
making comments about bratty children and how they hated to try walking
around the park "stroller dodging," and something needed to be done about
it. So when they walked around my friends family one of them actually
kicked the stroller ... and kicked it hard. My friend's husband actually
had to pull her off the woman who kicked the stroller. From the
description it was not a pretty site. Not saying I condone violence (I
would have grabbed a CM pronto), but you have to be a complete jerk to
kick a babies stroller and a complete idiot to do it right and front of
Mom and Dad. Your asking to get said stroller lodged in an uncomfortable
spot.


In article <3221F8...@worldnet.att.net>, Steven Ernst

T.R. @ USA

unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

..news flash....WDW is just for children ???? I dont think so.
That may have been true years ago but WDW is in the
Entertainment, Recreation, and Vacation Business for
ALL people.
As for strollers, there is a difference between "small" children
or infants in strollers, and, children that can walk on their own
and be aware of where they are and what they are doing.
Agreed, life is way, way too short.
It would also be boring if we all thought alike.
T.R.


JKirk54361

unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

As a parent who takes his son to DL, I can see were some people complain
because some peole pushing strollers don't seem to care about others in
the surrounding area, and I'm talking about pushing a stroller while
reading the DL guide or looking at pictures or what ever it is that makes
them not pay attention. However from experience I have noted that at least
70% of the people I have seen get hit by strollers have brought it upon
them selves, these are the people that step right in front of a stroller ,
or stop walking while a stroller is behind them. My wife and I have not as
of yet hit someone with our stroller but have come close due to the later
examples above, yes people who have stollers have the responsibility to
beware of the people around them, but so do all the other people.

BTW my son turns 3 years next week and yes he is fully capable of
walking, but when was the last time you saw a 3 year old able to walk 8+
hours???????

-Later
Jim

NB

unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

Robin Witten wrote:
>
>> Besides, isn't it pretty inconsiderate to leave your children
> with reletives while you go have fun. What about the child? And unlike you, not
> everyone wants to leave their children behind.<<

No, no, that's not what I said. I said wait until the children are old
enough, then go, or leave a baby with a sitter (what is inconsiderate
about that, don't people do that at home?)

>> Pretty selfish to think of
> their children instead of you.<<

But you see, it is pretty selfish to think of your children and not of
the others in the park. You know it is a crowded park, why bring
something to the park that will take up all that room? Why can't I
take my bicycle, or my son ride his bike there? We get tired, too. We
could strap the packages on it, strap the bikes to the railings outside
of the rides like strollers....but, you see, it would take up a lot of
room, room that Disneyland doesn't have because there are way too many
people.


> By the way, I've never taken a child or stroller to DL/WDW. I've been to WDW several


> times and have never been bothered by the strollers or the children. <<<

Well, I've never been to WDW, maybe they have more room there.

NB

Mary C. Kraemer

unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

Hello all,

I've been away for quite some time and only peek in occasionally.
But I've seen this thread and thought I'd add my piece to it. It
sounds very similar to the pro/con threads that I've read about
whether people should take their children on airplanes. Some people
are adamant that they should not be subjected to other people's
children on airplanes and other people feel that their children have
as much right to fly on planes as anyone else. It's like the debate over
motorcycle helmets; some people feel that they should have the choice
whether to wear them and others feel that the state should be able
to mandate it. Either way, the people feel passionately about it.

But this thread....to not take children to Disneyland? The idea seems absurd.
If Disneyland did not want children there, they would make it inaccessible
for them to do so. They certainly would not provide stroller rentals
nor a baby-changing/feeding place. And at WDW, they would not have sitter
services or children's programs. Of course, this is only my opinion, and I
am certainly of the belief that sharing Disneyland with my children is special.

Personally, I started taking my oldest son to Disneyland when he was two.
He has always enjoyed himself tremendously. I don't recall a single instance
when he would have deliberately bothered another person there (actually, I
don't recall an instance of bad behavior). When my son was about four, he
was the motivation behind our marathon day/evening at Disneyland; he kept
going and going and going without any problem until he finally fell asleep
in my arms in line for Splash Mountain at 11:45 pm. We first took our twins
to Disneyland at the age of two months. Indeed, we needed our stroller, but
we certainly never used it to bulldoze our way through crowds (I do admit that
it was somewhat helpful to retain some semblance of space around us when we
waited to see Fantasmic). My experience with the stroller was that it actually
slowed us down because of the rest of the foot traffic around us. We are planning
a return visit next month (should any of you want to avoid our presence, feel
free).

However, considering the general tone of this thread, I doubt that much agreement
will come between the people who feel that children should be not seen and not
heard at the park and the people who feel that sharing their Disney experience with
their children is a wonderful thing. So, that being said, could we now move on
to a more constructive, and perhaps useful, mutually satisfying activity such as
actively participating in the Promote Paul Pressler campaign?

Cheers,
FDC Flyaround Mary Poppins


NB

unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

Robin Witten wrote:
>
>> Besides, isn't it pretty inconsiderate to leave your children
> with reletives while you go have fun. What about the child? And unlike you, not
> everyone wants to leave their children behind.<<

No, no, that's not what I said. I said wait until the children are old
enough, then go, or leave a baby with a sitter (what is inconsiderate
about that, don't people do that at home?)

>> Pretty selfish to think of
> their children instead of you.<<

But you see, it is pretty selfish to think of your children and not of
the others in the park. You know it is a crowded park, why bring
something to the park that will take up all that room? Why can't I
take my bicycle, or my son ride his bike there? We get tired, too. We
could strap the packages on it, strap the bikes to the railings outside

of the rides like stollers....

Ethan Solomita

unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

In article <4vuvnp$q...@news.global2000.net>,

T.R. @ USA <wedd...@global2000.net> wrote:
>I have a right to enjoy myself with out hearing your
> very young child cry, whine, carryon during an
> attraction, while at dinner, or while enjoying the sites.

Yes, you do have that right. You do not have that right
at a Disney theme park, however. It's private property, and they
own it, and they set the rules (within governmental limits). Your
only right, re the above, is to leave and try to get a refund.

Of course, you can try to convince Disney to adopt
different policies. But until they do, you do not have the above
rights at a Disney theme park.
-- Ethan


--
R.A.D. Host

"I am a lab mouse. I escaped from my cage.
Never had a job. Never earned minimum wage." -- The Brain, Animaniacs

Alan Brown

unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

Mark DeLuca <mar...@cp.duluth.mn.us> wrote:

Apologies to all for being somewhat off topic.

> THE CHILDREN ARE THE ONLY PURE AND DECENT THING LEFT ON THIS PLANET

Tell that to the parents of James Bulger, the Liverpool toddler
murdered by other children

> THE CHILDREN ARE THE ONLY PURE AND DECENT THING LEFT ON THIS PLANET

Tell that to the families of the two people recently murdered in the
Liverpool area, for which children have been charged.

> THE CHILDREN ARE THE ONLY PURE AND DECENT THING LEFT ON THIS PLANET

Apparently not all of them. Get real.

NB

unread,
Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

Lynn Gustafson wrote:
>

> It seems to me that the problem here isn't stollers. It is 1)overcrowding and
> 2) rude patrons, many of whom are pushing strollers.

I agree with you!
>
> NB seems to feel that *all* children are the problem. I say that *some*
> parents are the problem. I have been coming to the park since I was 3 months
> old and I've always loved it. I first brought my niece when she was 1 1/2 and
> she loved it. However, I let her chose the pace and the rides. The only
> *rides* we went on were the carrosel and the train.<<

This reminded me that parents used to bring kids and take them to
Fantasyland only, then go home. If only other parents were as aware as
you are. Perhaps because the prices are so high these days, parents
feel they must get "their money's worth." I remember my grandparents
going just to "walk around." They liked Main Street, the sights, the
parades, etc.

>They should also not be forced to go on rides they don't
> want to. Usually when this happens, there is a parent behind it how is trying
> to get their 'money's worth'. These parents are worse behaved then their
> children.<<

I saw another example of this at Universal. A boy cried and cried in
line and didn't want to go in that "Fire" attraction (can't remember the
name, we went a few years ago--the one where everything in the warehouse
catches fire) His father ignored him. He carried him into the ride,
and made him watch. It was disgusting.

NB

Teri Lynn Wheeler

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Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

In article <322457...@ix.netcom.com>, wrd...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Teri Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> >
>
> > BUT....they are paying guests, just like you and everyone else that enters
> > those gates. I think Don said it best, should we also disallow teenagers
> > that run infront of people, block pathways, etc?<<
>

> Some people have thought so--remember the Punk threads?
>
> How long have you been a CM? Go talk to the CM's who have been there
> for 20+ years, I'll bet you'll hear that the stroller traffic is much
> worse.<<
>
Well, actually, I have been a CM on and off for 17 years. Don't get me
wrong, I have seen it change. I have seen the traffic become worse, but I
have also seen the population of DL as a whole become much more crowded.
The ratio of stroller people and non-stroller people is probably not too
different, but as a whole the park is packed now days so that manuvering
the stroller may prove to be much more difficult. I am not saying there
are not a load of strollers, but heck at times face it, there is just a
load people. I usually tend to visit on the "off times" as a guest, and
when I do go (for the most part) we pick either early in the AM on
weekends and hit rides that my little guy wants to go on, or we go after
dinner and stay for evening entertainment. But don't misunderstand, there
are times when we go all day, granted not during summer crush.



> >>And, just think, without the
> > strollers to hold them and all their goodies, they would be dropping them
> > all over the place as they struggle to walk in the crowds, holding mommies
> > hand and their toys, and their churro, etc.<<
>

> That's what the lockers are for, to park your stuff. (And yes, I think
> it is awful that there aren't enough, and that you guys charge, what
> $1.00 or more? It used to be 25 cents...add more lockers and lower the
> prices, then people can put their purchases there.
> >

Well, now you are changing the text of what JD had written. This reply
was written directly to JD's comment about "kids dropping their
merchandise on ground and having to stop to pick it up." I was just
mentioning that think if they didn't have that stroller then it would
definately be all over the place. I agree with you when it comes to the
lockers, there is not enough, and they are too expensive.
(BTW, it's not *us* guys that charge too much :) and they do offer
package pickup too, which is free, FWIW).



> > Well, depending on the
> > "land" we are in at the time; Toontown (which, BTW, was BUILT with the
> > little people in mind) I park it right past the train overpass. Same with
> > Fantasyland (another example of a little persons oasis) we park our
> > stroller by PeterPan. <<<
>

> Yes, I noticed, there are more and more strollers parked there. They
> take up too much room.<<
>
> And why can't parents take Snugglies and baby backpacks??? They would
> still bring the little ones, they wouldn't get tired, and they wouldn't
> take up much space.
>
OK, yes, I used to use a snuggly when I brought him as an infant, then I
even had the Gery Carrier Backpack which we used until he was about
2-3yrs. We opted for the stroller after that. There are times we will
come without one, but if you recall I was commenting to JD about staying
all day and making a child walk vs riding in a stroller.

In closing NB, let me say my son is very well behaved. He is polite, has
manners (we get commented on this quite often actually), he isn't a
screamer, tantrum thrower, or a spoiled brat for that matter. For what
it's worth, we frequent the park with the RAD group, and he behaves
wonderfully. Everyone enjoys having him participate, and to be honest,
there are times it is just easier on his feet to ride from land to land
since he can't walk as fast as 10 adults can.

Look, don't get me wrong....I know there are probably a lot of very
inconsiderate parents and brat for kids out there, but I for one am not
(neither is my boy). So rest assured, you see us in the park, we won't
bump yours/anyone elses ankles (never have before) and my son will say
excuse me if we are trying to get by you. We have always and will
continue to be considerate of all guest in the park. :))

Nuf said, of course....I only speak for me. No one else.
:)

Have a wonderful day,
TeriLynn

NB

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Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
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naomi pardue wrote:

> "Yes, little girl. We're going on a lovely family vacationto Disneyland.
> You can stay home with a babysitter.<<

Why do YOU have to go? I said WAIT until they are old enough to walk.
Are you such a big kid you HAVE to go?


>
> If it's THEIR booth, what's the problem? Why does it disturb you?<<

They climbed over the BACK of their booth (into the booth behind them.)
They are ruining everyone else's time in the restaurant by being
disruptive. Would you like it if adults did this at the next booth?

I mean, turning around and smiling or saying "hi" to the people at the
next booth is cute, but climbing back and forth over the booth is beyond
the pale....
>

>
> Your parents sound like they were very strict with you. <<

Nope, that was the norm in those days. Ask any Baby Boomer. (And they
were so liberal that in my teen years I could smoke and I had no
curfew.)

> Perhaps you'd
> prefer to listen to the child screaming and kicking the table becuase
> he's bored out of his skull, from being forced to sit utterly still and
> silent for an hour or more?<<

Screaming and kicking under the table?????

Are you kidding?????

What kind of a world are we living in?

In the 50's, if you pulled that kind of stunt, Dad took you out in the
hall, and either talked to you or administered a few spanks!

If you still acted up, the parents left with you, and you were in BIG
Trouble for spoiling everyone's evening....

My point was, people waited to take their kids to a restaurant or
whatever until they were old enough. Now parents take them everywhere,
which makes the child bored, etc.


NB

NB

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Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

Caleb & Michele Warner wrote:
>
>
> Not this mom! I have a college degree and could have a high paying job
> but instead I choose to spend my time with my children. I spend my time
> reading to them, playing with them and teaching them right from wrong. <f

Well, I work flexible hours, so now I do the same. Be lucky we have the
"choice", most parents don't anymore. Or pity the women who made that
choice, and found themselves and their children dumped by their
husbands...but that's another discussion.

>I
> think you may be blaming us all for the faults of a few. Yes, it is
> wrong for parents to allow young children to run around restaurants or
> climb over the booths, but that doesn't mean children don't belong there.<<

Well, I've heard this argument used in a discussion about smoking and
legalizing drugs, too. I argue that unfortunately, society has to
"help" parents and others by making laws that restrict the behavior of
ALL, because otherwise idiots abuse the privilege.

I would compromise by having Disneyland hand out strollers, and that way
they could control the size.

By the way, my son and I also got comments on our "manners." But we are
only children....

:)

NB

NB

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Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to

Teri Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>

> BUT....they are paying guests, just like you and everyone else that enters
> those gates. I think Don said it best, should we also disallow teenagers
> that run infront of people, block pathways, etc?<<

Some people have thought so--remember the Punk threads?

How long have you been a CM? Go talk to the CM's who have been there
for 20+ years, I'll bet you'll hear that the stroller traffic is much
worse.<<

>>And, just think, without the


> strollers to hold them and all their goodies, they would be dropping them
> all over the place as they struggle to walk in the crowds, holding mommies
> hand and their toys, and their churro, etc.<<

That's what the lockers are for, to park your stuff. (And yes, I think

it is awful that there aren't enough, and that you guys charge, what
$1.00 or more? It used to be 25 cents...add more lockers and lower the
prices, then people can put their purchases there.
>

> Well, depending on the
> "land" we are in at the time; Toontown (which, BTW, was BUILT with the
> little people in mind) I park it right past the train overpass. Same with
> Fantasyland (another example of a little persons oasis) we park our
> stroller by PeterPan. <<<

Yes, I noticed, there are more and more strollers parked there. They

take up too much room.<<

And why can't parents take Snugglies and baby backpacks??? They would
still bring the little ones, they wouldn't get tired, and they wouldn't
take up much space.

NB

Caleb & Michele Warner

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Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
to al...@ablink.demon.co.uk

Now look at the parents of the children who have commited these crimes.
Children most definitely do start off innocent and decent. For some,
however, life is not kind or generous.

Michele


gjw

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Aug 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/28/96
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NB wrote:
>
> I saw another example of this at Universal. A boy cried and cried in
> line and didn't want to go in that "Fire" attraction (can't remember the
> name, we went a few years ago--the one where everything in the warehouse
> catches fire) His father ignored him. He carried him into the ride,
> and made him watch. It was disgusting.
>
> NB

Just to clear things up: the attraction you're referring to is called
"Backdraft". It was inspired by a movie of the same name, about
firefighter.

Bill Speicher

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
to

Yes there is more room there, and more people. Don't you really enjoy the
double side by side strollers? They remind me of the brush cutting mowers
called "bush hogs".

Actually, after many trips to WDW I have developed a sense of humor
concerning many of the complaints of time pressed, new or hurried visitors.
It's THE real show seeing them run from attraction to attraction, maps in
hand, kids in tow in wild eyed panic to see it all. Bill

naomi pardue

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
to

NB (wrd...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

> > "Yes, little girl. We're going on a lovely family vacationto Disneyland.
> > You can stay home with a babysitter.<<

> Why do YOU have to go? I said WAIT until they are old enough to walk.
> Are you such a big kid you HAVE to go?

My child could walk when we went. (She was nearly 3, and not
developmentally delayed...) She could NOT walk for 10-12 hours at a
stretch over miles of theme park. And no, actually, we did want want to
wait to go until she could walk for 10-12 hours at a stretch, becusae
then she would be in school, and we'd have to go during the summer or
holiday time, when the parks would be much more crowded and none of us
would have a good time.

I guarantee that I collided with no-one with our stroller. I troubled
no-one with our stroller. Our child was not rude or disruptive to anyone.

> >
> > If it's THEIR booth, what's the problem? Why does it disturb you?<<

> They climbed over the BACK of their booth (into the booth behind them.)
> They are ruining everyone else's time in the restaurant by being
> disruptive. Would you like it if adults did this at the next booth?

Was someone IN the other booth? If so, the parents were definitely in
the wrong, and the residents of that booth should have said something. If
not, while that is still something I would not have allowed my child to
do it is hardly disrupting the other patrons. If you don't like to see
it, not looking would be a reasonble option for you.

> I mean, turning around and smiling or saying "hi" to the people at the
> next booth is cute, but climbing back and forth over the booth is beyond
> the pale....
> >

> >
> > Your parents sound like they were very strict with you. <<

> Nope, that was the norm in those days. Ask any Baby Boomer. (And they
> were so liberal that in my teen years I could smoke and I had no
> curfew.)

I am one. I was taken to restaurants. (Not often, due to financial
considertions.) I was taken to movies. I was taken to concerts. My sibs
and I were raised with reasonble expectations as to behavior. I am doing
the same with my child. We were not kept locked up until we were adults.
I do not lock my child up until she an adult. We were not forced to act
like adults as children. I do not force my child to act like an adult. I
allow her to act like a child with a mind to the rights of others.

> > Perhaps you'd
> > prefer to listen to the child screaming and kicking the table becuase
> > he's bored out of his skull, from being forced to sit utterly still and
> > silent for an hour or more?<<

> Screaming and kicking under the table?????
> Are you kidding?????
> What kind of a world are we living in?
> In the 50's, if you pulled that kind of stunt, Dad took you out in the
> hall, and either talked to you or administered a few spanks!

The point I am making is that, if youdon't allow the child to play in a
quiet manner, he is likely to play more noisily, due to boredom. Now, why
should everyone's meal be ruined (the parents, who would have to leave
the restaurant, the child, who would be punished for being unble to meet
the unreasonable expectations being placed upon him, and the other
patrons, who would have to listen to the screaming for the time it would
take the parents to deal with the problem), when allowing reasonable play
from the child would provide a pleasant experience for all?

> My point was, people waited to take their kids to a restaurant or
> whatever until they were old enough. Now parents take them everywhere,
> which makes the child bored, etc.


And which means that the child learns, at an early age, how to behave in
restaurants.

Naomi

Jeff Spencer

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
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Robin Witten wrote:
>
> What has bothered me is the attitude that strollers, children, or even parents are the
> problem. This shouldn't be a complaint about people with children, it should be a
> complaint about inconsiderate people in general.
> You don't like a crying child, I don't either. I also don't like bad language,
> especially around my child. Yet I hear it in restaurants, on the street, in line,
> everywhere.
> You don't like being run down by strollers, I don't either. I also don't like having my
> feet stepped on or being pushed out of the way. Yet it happens all the time when I'm in
> a crowded place.
> You don't like being blocked by strollers, I don't either. I also don't like having a
> person or group of people stand in my way. Yet it happens everytime I'm trying to get
> somewhere.
> The complaints shouldn't be targeted toward parents but toward people who are
> inconsiderate and unthinking.

You are right on target Robin. But what you must realize is that many of the people
that have ranted in this miserable thread about stroller terrorists are, by
definition, inconsiderate and unthinking. How else would you describe someone that
groups all kids and all parents together, good and bad, and then proceeds, in their
infinite wisdom, to judge us and tell us what we should or shouldn't do? Attempts to
convince them of this fact are of course fruitless and thereby extremely frustrating
for those brave souls that attempt to do so.

Jeff Spencer

JOY HOGLEY

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
to

In article <hamidDw...@netcom.com>, Hamid Wasti <ha...@netcom.com> wrote:

>In article <322181...@ix.netcom.com> wrd...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>It would be nice to expose
>>them to the Opera and the Symphony, but do you take them when they are
>>too small to sit through it? I hope not.
>
>Fortunately most half way descent concert halls have age limits. Most of
>them start at 12, with some of the more serious ones having higher age
>limits. Wait till one of these Stroller Terrorists files a suit against
>one of them for not allowing their supposedly well behaved 2 year old
>from disrupting the performance.
>
> -----Hamid


Oh dear, I'm sad to hear that the Seattle Opera isn't a "serious"
organization. I always thought that they were wonderful. My dad and I
had season tickets to the Opera from when I was 9 years old until I was
18. (Then I left town to go to college.)

If you don't allow well-behaved children to go to theater, opera and the
symphony, how will you ever create a new generation of arts fans? Love
of the arts starts at a very young age. If you wait until kids are 17 or
18 to expose them to Opera, they have heard how "boring" it is from so
many people that they aren't willing to enjoy it.

This is probably why the Symphony here sometimes holds kid-oriented
concerts, and performs popular pieces the kids have heard before. When
all of their 80-year-old fans die out, the symphony wants to keep
someone coming to the shows!

Sorry, I shouldn't have responded to this thread. It deserves to die a
quick death. But you can't insult my Seattle Opera! They're fabulous!


shaun&karen

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
to

I have included both Robin Witten's repsonse to my post and your
repsonse to that response in full, becase I want to represent you fairly
before I ask the question:

Did either of you _read_ my original post? Did I not make it clear that
I consider parents like Michele to be highly praiseworthy; that I like
children in general very much; that I consider well-behaved children and
good parents to be in the majority; that I do NOT lump all parents,
children, or stroller pushers together; that I perceive the issue as
going WAY beyond strollers; that I consider that children who are raised
without any self-discipline or concern for others are at risk, both
emotionally and as far as safety goes; and that I do not want to see
strollers or small children or infants or anyone else banned from the
park?

By the way, the issue of inconsiderate parents is not exactly the same
as that of inconsiderate people in general. We have a responsbility to
our children as a society, and people who allow their children to
completely disregard the comfort of others, or who do so themselves (by,
for example, allowing kids to crawl over a booth into some other diner's
area), are not living up to that responsibility. Also, they are not
only inconsiderate in and of themselves, but via their children; as I
said before, children who do not know they are behaving badly cannot be
held accountable for that bad behavior. The parents who never taught
them can.

I am completely unsure why saying

> I can understand why you were offended; those of us who are annoyed and
> concerned should be on our knees thanking you and parents like you who
> understand about personal responsiblity and the need to behave well in
> public. You are probably still in the majority. But the minority is
> growing and is highly visible.

should get me branded as someone who lumps all parents together or hates
children or is intolerant or any of the other things you said. I would
welcome a response from either or both of you in which you reconcile
what you wrote about my post with the actual contents of that post.
Until then, I remain

confusedly yours,
Karen

Hamid Wasti

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
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faeriedustbunnies

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
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0740....@news.wrc.xerox.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)

Folks, this has degenerated into a petty arguement over differing
parenting methods. From what I can see, no one is going to be changing
their minds soon.

My opinion on strollers? Irrelevant at this point. I want everyone who goes
to a Disney park to have fun. *Everyone.* Let's dig down and find some of
that magic we feel while we're there and spread it around, ok? Thanks. :)

--Carla
--
...........................................................................
: @}-->-'-,-- faeriedustbunnies --,--'-<--{@ :
:"What would you give "By grace, my sight grows stronger and i will not:
:for your kid fears?" be a pawn for the Prince of Darkness any longer" :
: --Amy Ray --Emily Saliers :
:.......................................................cha...@netcom.com:

Danae Fesler

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
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I have been reading the post reagarding the stroller Terroists for some time
and I finally decided to post something.My daughter is old enough to walk, she
is two, But I would not make her walk around for ten to twelve hours straight
and stand in line for hours at an end that would make her cranky more than
being in a stroller for sometime. Have you ever gone to the state fair
strollers make life a lot easier you don't have to worry that someone has
picked up your toddler and carried them away never to be seen again because
they are right there in the stroller. I agree that people with strollers
should be careful and considerate of others, but I dont think they should be
banned. Watching a two year olds Eyes light up when she finally meets Pooh and
Best of all Mickey Mouse (her Favorites) Is worth the time and money of taking
her to Disneyland. That is a magical moment and A stroller helps to not wear a
toddler out to fast, thereby not making her as cranky as she could be. I also
think pacing yourself when you have a toddler is good idea take time to enjoy
her reactions. I honestly think that banning strollers is not the way to go.

Just my 2 cents worth

Danae Fesler
--
: Fidonet: Danae Fesler 1:203/7707.2 .. speaking for only myself.
: Internet: hob...@gigo.com

Robin Witten

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Aug 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM8/29/96
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