Design Education
Paolo
Hi Jason,
I've got a question for you; Do you think that educating students about the
business, ethics and promotion of design should be a core element in a
design school's programs or do you think that students should be solely
taught about aesthetics, colour, form, tools, etc.?
I'm interested in your stand point on this issue.
Thanks!
Paolo.
Roger
year my reply to this question is YES YES YES!
I'm at such a disadvantage, I know nothing about promoting myself or how to
organise myself as a successful bussiness.
Roger
Paolo wrote:
Terry L. Griffin
students should at least be taught a basic but solid understanding of
business and promotion practices. Else, they're simply getting an
incomplete education.
terry
Terry L. Griffin
it's a concept that's really not too feasible in the real design world.
But it HAS been a point of debate for some years now. Critique
Magazine--winter 1999--did an issue on design education, certification,
and mentoring. Check it out.
terry
Jason Hosking wrote:
>
> I'm a Graphic Design student writing a dissertation on Design Education and
> the Design Industry and I would like to know if anyone here knows any books,
> journals etc... that would be helpful to my research.
>
> I will be coming from the angle that it is possible to get work as a
> designer without having a degree so what is the point of investing money,
> time and effort in obtaining a good design education. Obviously as a design
> student I realise some of these benefits and understand that design
> education is not just about supplying industry with fresh graduates every
> year.
>
> If you have any other ideas, comments or advice relating to this topic,
> please let me know.
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Jason
Jason Hosking
Jason Hosking
the
> business, ethics and promotion of design should be a core element in a
> design school's programs or do you think that students should be solely
> taught about aesthetics, colour, form, tools, etc.?
If you teach a student solely aesthetics, colour, form, tools, etc... I
believe you would end up with artists who create primarily on an 'aesthic'
level without giving much thought to the bigger implications of their
design. Perhaps a generalised example of this would be a short desktop
publishing course where you only learn tools to make things pretty.
Don't get me wrong though, these tools are important in creating design that
works, yet if you teach students ethics, look at history, study business and
promotion, you are much more likely to produce a designer who thinks about
the end result. Who is the target market? How is the clients needs best
achieved? Do I even want my design to promote this company?
I think that graphic design does play a vital role in business, advertising
and culture which makes a big impact on society as a whole. Therefore the
business and ethical side should make up a core part of a design students
learning. Yet the fact remains that it is still possible to get design work
without this vital teaching.
Jason
FireLady
Dee (FireLady)
DW Designs
http://www.dw-designs.com
FireLady's Domain
http://www.firelady40.com
Paolo <pa...@the-internet-eye.com> wrote in message
news:CV7y4.727$Y73....@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> I've got a question for you; Do you think that educating students about
the
> business, ethics and promotion of design should be a core element in a
> design school's programs or do you think that students should be solely
> taught about aesthetics, colour, form, tools, etc.?
>
Paolo
are listening.
Here is another question (totally non-biased):
How many of you, who were professionally schooled in design, had the
distinct feeling that your teachers did not work in the field other than
teaching design.
I'm curious as to how many professional designers today were taught by
people they would not trust today with their own projects.
Paolo.
--
Paolo Pace
Black Pencil Design
http://the-internet-eye.com/blackpencil
pa...@blackpencildesign.com
Coming soon... www.blackpencildesign.com
FireLady <firel...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:8Oxy4.3307$7L.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
sistercarol
do not consider my education to be a waste. I find it sad that
people consider a degree in design or fine art to be a waste of
time and/or money.
When I'm interviewing people for a job (not even necessarily a
design position) I always require a college degree -- no
exceptions. Having been through college myself -- twice -- I have
the utmost respect for anyone who can come through an experience
like that and remain sane and functional. :-) It shows you have
the ability to stay with something unpleasant and still produce
results. I question whether or not people who don't have a degree
can share the same understanding. I've also found that
sometimes -- people who didn't go to college have a slight chip on
their shoulder about it when they're around people who did. (I
work with someone like that....)
Just a few cent's worth.
--Carol
Paolo <pa...@the-internet-eye.com> wrote in message
news:f0zy4.1893$ju6.1...@weber.videotron.net...
Dan
>>>How many of you, who were professionally schooled in design, had the
distinct feeling that your teachers did not work in the field other than
teaching design.<<<
Stop. Why would anyone who is serious about their formal education, and has
committed to spend thousands of dollars and two to four years of their life,
not have this basic information??
I am trying to think back over my formal education, including high school,
college, and even the many extension and night classes, and am trying to
recall even ONE art/design instructor that I have ever had that wasn't also
a working pro. The insights I have gained from the informal discussions with
them, from visiting their design offices and art studios, from attending
their gallery openings, has been invaluable well beyond the approved "course
outline."
Dan
--
To reply, remove ooo from address
Patricia Sadiq
design programs should feature courses in business and promotion. If you go to an
art school, you learn art. If you want to learn business and promotion than you
should look into a liberal arts or business school. Maybe some art schools could
offer joint degrees, where they would partner up with other schools to offer
classes on business and promotion.
Any good art schools is going to have a very good career services department and
alumni networks. Those are two great places to tap into when seeking advice on how
to get the most out of your degree.
+Sadiq
psgr...@netbox.com
"Terry L. Griffin" wrote:
> This was a major stumblingblock for me as well. And I strongly feel that
> students should at least be taught a basic but solid understanding of
> business and promotion practices. Else, they're simply getting an
> incomplete education.
>
> terry
>
> Roger wrote:
> >
> > I know I'm not Jason but I had to respond to this Paolo. Having graduated last
> > year my reply to this question is YES YES YES!
> >
> > I'm at such a disadvantage, I know nothing about promoting myself or how to
> > organise myself as a successful bussiness.
> >
> > Roger
> >
> > Paolo wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Jason,
> > >
> > > I've got a question for you; Do you think that educating students about the
> > > business, ethics and promotion of design should be a core element in a
> > > design school's programs or do you think that students should be solely
> > > taught about aesthetics, colour, form, tools, etc.?
> > >
> > > I'm interested in your stand point on this issue.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Paolo.
> >
> > --
> > http://www.twistedonion.com
Paolo
I have the great privilege of introducing my wife to you
all.
Her name is Arsheena and she is a graphic designer as
well.
She read our discussion and wanted to pitch in. Here you
go:
Dan,
I have to say I believe you are one of the luckier people I have heard
from.
From the stand point of watching teachers jealously guarding their
contacts, and pricing, and also from giving honest critiques, I have been in
classes where work was never returned to a student then appeared in ad
campaigns, students left the class in tears, false accusations of
plagiarism, blatant plagiarism not confronted, and situations where an
Ombudsman had to be requested to monitor an abusive teacher's teaching
methods.
With all due respect, there are as many stand up teachers as there are
designers. One obviously learning from the other.
To answer your question; when entering a professional program not all
students have the where-with-all to ask their teachers for their
credentials. The work that they may present to you as work done in the field
has to be taken at face value.
I guess Paolo should have rephrased the question to read:
With the experiences you now have under your belt, and the insight that
hindsight has afforded you, would you hire any of the teachers you had in
school? Knowledge, attitudes, professionalism in class, and general
personality, all having weight. Remember this is like and insightful job
interview.
From Me
Arsheena.
Dan <dant...@worldnet.att.ooo.net> wrote in message
news:EBzy4.5837$Q76.3...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Paolo
> As a graduate of Pratt in NYC, I have to disagree with your idea that
graphic
> design programs should feature courses in business and promotion
> psgr...@netbox.com
Patricia,
Although I brought this subject up objectively, I must comment that I
believe your standpoint to be rather strange. Graphic design is the
commercial application of art, to put it bluntly. Therefore, why would a
school for design not be responsible for teaching such things as design
ethics, general pricing and the setting of ones own rates?
The fact that so many designers are being released from school as
"professional designers" and then effect the industry by under-pricing work,
using poor judgement in client relations, lacking proper design business
ethics and so on, is just appalling to me.
I would highly reccomend a change in thinking for any schools,
establishments and teachers that feel the way you do about educating
designers. I feel I said as much in April's issue of HOW, in relation to a
student of Yale's design program. A young woman who hailed from India
trained in design for six years and returned to her home in search of work
and couldn't find any. I found it rather alarming that such a fine
institution such as Yale would release a student with no knowledge about the
present state of the business of design in her area. She is fine now as she
owns her own firm (in India) but I still have my doubts as to how prepared
she is for the industry and vice versa.
Sincerely,
Paolo.
Terry L. Griffin
>
> That can't be taught in a lecture hall. That
> comes with time and practical experience.
This is true. But institutions should at least see that their graduates
"have a clue" when they leave the building. Of course, colleges are
under no oblibligation to enlighten students about the "real world," but
NOT to is a disservice to everyone involved.
terry
noChefAtAll
my case, there was the matter of a small war in South East Asia I
was doing my best to stay out of.
Still, I got something.
noChef
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Mike Senna
<6pzy4.6417$lA4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>Coming from a fine arts background, I had excellent teachers, and
>do not consider my education to be a waste. I find it sad that
>people consider a degree in design or fine art to be a waste of
>time and/or money.
I had some great teachers too, with practical fine art and commercial art
experience. I think anyone who avoids college so they can boast that
they're self taught is missing out on a lot. If I had the time and money
right now, I'd finish my BA and probably go for a master's. I do plan to
continue taking design and art courses as resources permit.
>Paolo <pa...@the-internet-eye.com> wrote in message
>news:f0zy4.1893$ju6.1...@weber.videotron.net...
> How many of you, who were professionally schooled in design, had
>the distinct feeling that your teachers did not work in the field
>other than teaching design.
My art instructors were all artists with lots of commissions under their
belts. My commercial art instructors had good print design experience.
Even my art history professor was (still is) an excellent painter,
represented by a Maryland Gallery.
Mike
Terry L. Griffin
just how to draw, but how to make a sucessful living at it. Placement
offices and alumni groups are great resources. But that shouldn't be an
excuse for the school not to at least have a "design career 101."
You don't think this would be a benefit to students, clients and
employers alike?
terry
Patricia Sadiq wrote:
>
> As a graduate of Pratt in NYC, I have to disagree with your idea that graphic
Roger
I did not do an art and design course to be an artist, but to be a designer. Design
is a trade, a profession - therefore business sense is paramount to success. Graphic
design is all about the money - we are slaves to consumerism and if you disagree with
that then you are an artist.
This a cut throat world and I don't see how business courses integrated into an
art/design course could do any harm, they can only be a benefit. If you are doing a
fine art course then there is no need for business elements, but design is a
different story. But then, the whole art/design arguement is never going to be
resolved so we will just be going round in circles here.
I had real problems at college with this whole topic. Especially when it came to
portfolio building. My work tends to be very clean, much to the distaste of the fine
art teachers who would continually try to get me to loosen up my portfolio by adding
abstract work into it. My arguement was that abstract doesn't nessicerily (I just
can't spell tonight) sell, but clean corporate design does. They told me life wasn't
all about money, my reply was that I can be an artist in my spare time - which I am,
I love personal projects. But that work never enters my portfolio, and if it does it
is to illustrate certain skills.
Patricia Sadiq wrote:
> As a graduate of Pratt in NYC, I have to disagree with your idea that graphic
> design programs should feature courses in business and promotion. If you go to an
> art school, you learn art. If you want to learn business and promotion than you
> should look into a liberal arts or business school. Maybe some art schools could
> offer joint degrees, where they would partner up with other schools to offer
> classes on business and promotion.
>
> Any good art schools is going to have a very good career services department and
> alumni networks. Those are two great places to tap into when seeking advice on how
> to get the most out of your degree.
>
> +Sadiq
> psgr...@netbox.com
Roger
designer I am now. I have a great respect for my teachers, although at the
time I often disagreed with what they taught. I would certainly trust my
former Tutor with a project - he is one of the most creative people I have met
even though he dropped out of the profession. I mentioned earlier that if you
are not a slave to consumerism you are an artist but I take that back - you
could also be a teacher - which is a very noble option.
Roger
Paolo wrote:
> This is really good to hear, sadly I don't think the many school's out there
> are listening.
>
> Here is another question (totally non-biased):
>
> How many of you, who were professionally schooled in design, had the
> distinct feeling that your teachers did not work in the field other than
> teaching design.
>
> I'm curious as to how many professional designers today were taught by
> people they would not trust today with their own projects.
>
> Paolo.
sistercarol
prepared at ALL for the real world, and have no concept of how
businesses work. And these are non-arts people, too. Architects,
engineers, literature majors, social work majors -- all of them.
Running a business, or being a manager, is something that has to
be learned as you go, for the most part. You have to take your
knocks, make your mistakes, pay your dues, and hopefully eke out a
modicum of success. You can either play the dog-eat-dog game that
Roger mentioned in an earlier post, or you can try to be happy
with what you have. That can't be taught in a lecture hall. That
comes with time and practical experience.
--Carol
Paolo <pa...@the-internet-eye.com> wrote in message
news:96Cy4.2007$ju6.1...@weber.videotron.net...
>
> > As a graduate of Pratt in NYC, I have to disagree with your
idea that
> graphic
> > design programs should feature courses in business and
Poptart7O4
>When I'm interviewing people for a job (not even necessarily a
>design position) I always require a college degree -- no
>exceptions. Having been through college myself -- twice -- I have
>the utmost respect for anyone who can come through an experience
>like that and remain sane and functional. :-) It shows you have
>the ability to stay with something unpleasant and still produce
>results. I question whether or not people who don't have a degree
>can share the same understanding. I've also found that
>sometimes -- people who didn't go to college have a slight chip on
>their shoulder about it when they're around people who did. (I
>work with someone like that....)
>
>Just a few cent's worth.
>
>--Carol
>
Carol,
I agree that education is not a waste. Education comes in many forms though.
You mentioned that you have sometimes noticed a chip on someone's shoulder when
they are around people who have gone to college. Yet you also stated doubt that
people who haven't gone to college share the same ability to stay with
something unpleasant and still produce results. Hmm, I respect you very much
mind you, but perhaps the one attitude is noticable to those without degrees
and it's bringing their own to light when around you. Possible.
Michelle
Jim Howard
NEVER a waste of time, or money. When I graduated high school, I
wanted desperately to go to college, but it was not to be (at least at
that time). However, my lack of a college experience in no way
detracted from my ability to stick with something unpleasant and
produce results, nor did it prevent me from getting a lifetime's worth
of valuable education, and being a valuable asset, as well.
Questioning someone's abilities and the depth of their understanding
solely based of their lack of a college degree is unfair to them, and
more importantly, only hurts you in the end. If I had adopted that
attitude when I became manager of the information technologies
department at a company here in Colorado, I would have cheated myself,
and the company, out of some absolutely brilliant people. If you ask
me if I factored a degree into the equation, the answer is yes. But
there are too many kinds of education for me dismiss someone because
because they lacked the kind that gives you a piece of paper at the
end.
And by the way...I ultimately DID get my college degree, and I'm very
proud of it. I worked hard, and stuck with it...just like I was always
taught to do.
Jim
On Sat, 11 Mar 2000 22:03:46 GMT, "sistercarol" <nob...@nowhere.com>
wrote:
>Coming from a fine arts background, I had excellent teachers, and
>do not consider my education to be a waste. I find it sad that
>people consider a degree in design or fine art to be a waste of
>time and/or money.
>
Patricia Sadiq
visual communication: It's graffiti; It's iconography; It's city signage
systems; It's highway and airport signage systems; It's magazine design; it's
propaganda posters, etc.
A proper design education needs to be rooted in the classic traditions of
theory, history and production. If, as a graphic design school graduate, you
feel that you want to branch out on your own and freelance, learning how to be
a good freelancer comes with getting out into the real world and being: You
learn on the job. An art school shouldn't be responsible for teaching students
how to market themselves or how to price their works (that fluctuates according
to a myriad of different factors.) Any designer who participates in unethical
business practices will find themselves marginalized or out of business (for
the most part.)
If a student wants to focus on the more practical aspects of graphic design
they should enroll in a program that doesn't focus on theory: They need a
program that's more practical.
It would be wonderful if schools could teach good business practices but that
is just not feasible. If it was possible all business schools, medical schools
and law schools would produce amazing graduates.
+Sadiq
psgr...@netbox.com
Patricia Sadiq
you love art and want to pursue art as a career. That's not the same as learning the
business of art. I didn't get an art degree for that reason and I haven't met a graphic
designer who has. I went to art school to be a graphic designer because I love graphic
design. It had nothing to do with business or commercialism. I Graphic design IS art.
I don't think that art schools should, and need, to teach design career 101 classes. I
believe that graduates get their portfolios together and then they hit the bricks.
Designers learn as they go just like every other designer has ever done in the past.
The key to making it in the design world is having a good portfolio and good hand
skills (this includes the computer as well as paste-up skills.) There's no class that a
school could offer that could possibly teach you what it is to actually be a designer
in the real world. The only way to be a real-world designer is to get a job and start
designing.
+Sadiq
psgr...@netbox.com
"Terry L. Griffin" wrote:
> If you go to an art college, you want to learn the BUSINESS of art. Not
> just how to draw, but how to make a sucessful living at it. Placement
> offices and alumni groups are great resources. But that shouldn't be an
> excuse for the school not to at least have a "design career 101."
>
> You don't think this would be a benefit to students, clients and
> employers alike?
>
> terry
>
> Patricia Sadiq wrote:
> >
> > As a graduate of Pratt in NYC, I have to disagree with your idea that graphic
> > design programs should feature courses in business and promotion. If you go to an
> > art school, you learn art. If you want to learn business and promotion than you
> > should look into a liberal arts or business school. Maybe some art schools could
> > offer joint degrees, where they would partner up with other schools to offer
> > classes on business and promotion.
> >
> > Any good art schools is going to have a very good career services department and
> > alumni networks. Those are two great places to tap into when seeking advice on how
> > to get the most out of your degree.
> >
> > +Sadiq
> > psgr...@netbox.com
> >
Poptart7O4
>school because
>you love art and want to pursue art as a career.
<snip>>
>believe that graduates get their portfolios together and then they hit the
>bricks.
Part of what I am some others are saying is that graduates are NOT doing a good
job of getting their portfolios together. They have no idea how to hit the
bricks effectively. These ARE items that can be taught.
Mostly though, I believe business knowledge is a _necessity_ in being an
effective graphic designer. Graphic design isn't about making a visually
appealing piece of art for the designer. It's often about effectively
communicating a business need, to understand those, you are better served by
being able to ask the right questions.
Right now I am in the middle of re-training designers at my firm to re-think
WHY they do things the way they do. To ask questions first, draw later. To
understand what we are trying to do and why and who we are trying to do it for
FIRST. These are things that can be taught.
Michelle
Mike Senna
<20000312022204...@ng-fv1.aol.com>...
>Part of what I am some others are saying is that graduates are NOT doing a
good
>job of getting their portfolios together. They have no idea how to hit the
>bricks effectively. These ARE items that can be taught.
>
>Mostly though, I believe business knowledge is a _necessity_ in being an
>effective graphic designer. Graphic design isn't about making a visually
>appealing piece of art for the designer. It's often about effectively
>communicating a business need, to understand those, you are better served
by
>being able to ask the right questions.
Michelle,
I wholeheartedly agree "business knowledge is a_necessity_in being an
effective"
any kind of artist or designer.
The problem is, GAG guidelines notwithstanding, there is no real standard.
So many of you have formulae for pricing and variations of doing business.
It seems to me there's no getting around the trial and error method,
especially for freelancers. If there is some truly effective trade secret,
noone seems to want to divulge it.
For example:
If you read one authority, you will be advised to do some free work and
offer discounts. Read another (especially ADG) and you're advised to only
try this to learn the ropes and get your start.
In fact the market seems to determine what will work at any given time, when
it comes to selling and what is acceptable sales strategy.
Then there are the calculations for what you should charge, again varied and
confusing. Again the market will decide what you'll be able to charge.
What is that? Demand is constantly changing.
There wasn't much guidance in my college experience outside of portfolio
development. I would love to see courses offered in freelancing and the
business of commercial art. I just think it will be one of those things
where the curriculum lags behind the real world, and students won't get
their money's worth.
This is mostly opinion, but it is based on some diligent personal study and
observation. I think I'm a pretty good artist and a practical minded
individual. I'm also a 'quick study,' but the business side of this
continues to elude me.
Bottom line, I don't know if I would spend another dime on a how to to
business book or course these days. Those that claim to have the secret
always sell it dearly, and it's benefits to the student are questionable. I
told you all I'm a skeptic. Maybe I'm too skeptical to be a business
success. I sincerely hope not. I keep trying.
Mike
Dan
Your experiences have been much different than mine. Fortunately,
con-artists were not teaching at the schools I attended!
>>>To answer your question; when entering a professional program not all
students have the where-with-all to ask their teachers for their
credentials. The work that they may present to you as work done in the field
has to be taken at face value.<<<
I think the key words here are "professional program." Any professional
school will highlight the credentials of it's teachers right in it's
promotional literature. Shy students needn't be private investigators, they
just need to know how to read. Also, a visit to the campus, a couple of
conversations with students and faculty, a look at the work on the walls;
these will quickly tell you what you need to know before applying/enrolling.
Again, for several thousand dollars and two to four years, would-be design
students should be doing some basic homework.
>>>With the experiences you now have under your belt, and the insight that
hindsight has afforded you, would you hire any of the teachers you had in
school? Knowledge, attitudes, professionalism in class, and general
personality, all having weight. Remember this is like and insightful job
interview.<<<
There are only two that I would answer, "Probably not," but I base that on
personality rather than ability. Everyone else I still hold in very high
esteem. Many of my instructors were featured in design publications (CA,
Print), Illustrators Annuals, Photography Annuals, The One Show awards in
New York; and were active participants (and winners in the juried shows) at
local Art Director's clubs. These teachers were the "real deal," and remain
an inspiration to me.
Dan
--
To reply, remove ooo from address
---------------------------------------------
Paolo wrote in message <0XBy4.2005$ju6.1...@weber.videotron.net>...
>> >>>How many of you, who were professionally schooled in design, had the
>> distinct feeling that your teachers did not work in the field other than
>> teaching design.<<<
>>
Jason Hosking
the
> business, ethics and promotion of design should be a core element in a
> design school's programs or do you think that students should be solely
> taught about aesthetics, colour, form, tools, etc.?
Jason Hosking
what it is to actually be a designer in the real world. The only way to be a
real-world designer is to get a job and start designing.
This takes me back to the original question that started all this
discussion.
What are the benefits of a design education if it doesn't prepare you for
real world graphic design?
Dimitri
foresight from the student to make decisions that benefit their future.
If they need a business education to augment their career then by-golly,
go get one.
"Terry L. Griffin" wrote:
>
> sistercarol wrote:
> >
> > That can't be taught in a lecture hall. That
> > comes with time and practical experience.
>
> This is true. But institutions should at least see that their graduates
> "have a clue" when they leave the building.
No, STUDENTS should see they have "a clue" when they leave the building
in preparation for their careers.
Of course, colleges are
> under no oblibligation to enlighten students about the "real world," but
> NOT to is a disservice to everyone involved.
>
> terry
--
Panta Graphica
http://www.the-spa.com/diablo/panta.htm
Latest work-
http://www.the-spa.com/diablo/depth.jpg
sistercarol
And I think we're also forgetting -- unless a student is attending
an arts school, any state uni offers business classes. Nobody is
prohibited from taking them.....one of the best classes I ever
took when I was an undergrad was Business Law. It was boring,
tedious, and involved a lot more work than I cared to do, but I
learned so much more than had I not taken it at all.
--Carol
Jim Howard <duck...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38cc1f52...@news.supernews.com...
sistercarol
work one day and somehow the topic of college came up....we were
standing around after lunch. One of my co-workers pointed this
out to me, and I agreed. I think it stems from regret. We work
with a woman who tends to over-compensate when it involves any
sort of intellectual discussion, and she usually ends up having an
attitude and walking away. What's sad is that she's extremely
bright and capable on her own, and probably regrets like hell not
having gone to college.....so she takes it out on us sometimes.
We all have regrets, and I have been guilty of the above as well.
Anyway, that's where that came from. :-)
--Carol
Poptart7O4 <popta...@aol.comet> wrote in message
news:20000311230228...@ng-ce1.aol.com...
> >
> >When I'm interviewing people for a job (not even necessarily a
> >design position) I always require a college degree -- no
> >exceptions. Having been through college myself -- twice -- I
have
> >the utmost respect for anyone who can come through an
experience
> >like that and remain sane and functional. :-) It shows you
have
> >the ability to stay with something unpleasant and still produce
> >results. I question whether or not people who don't have a
degree
> >can share the same understanding. I've also found that
> >sometimes -- people who didn't go to college have a slight chip
on
> >their shoulder about it when they're around people who did. (I
> >work with someone like that....)
> >
> >Just a few cent's worth.
> >
> >--Carol
> >
>
> Carol,
> I agree that education is not a waste. Education comes in many
forms though.
> You mentioned that you have sometimes noticed a chip on
someone's shoulder when
> they are around people who have gone to college. Yet you also
stated doubt that
> people who haven't gone to college share the same ability to
stay with
Sadiq
foundation upon which to build upon. Part of the benefits of a design
education should be good hand skills, understanding of art and design history,
visual perception, etc. I could go on and on. These are the things that any
design student should learn. Now whether or not that will translate into a good
employee, or good freelancer, who knows. Graphic design is an art not a
science: You can't train design students as you would medical students. What
about law students? Law students have to learn as they go much the same as a
design student. Law students go to law school to learn the law. They read legal
history and they get a firm foundation in case histories. If a law student goes
into the practice of law, what was learned in school has to be applied to the
real-legal-world. A lawyer has to get out there and be a lawyer: It's on the
job training.
Perhaps art schools need to focus on securing internships for all of their
design students so that the students can develop real world design skills. I
just don't see how you can get around the training and learning phase of being
a designer. EVERY designer, recent grad or old-time designer, can learn
something, can improve on something. It's all a process.
+Sadiq
psgr...@netbox.com
Paolo
Terry L. Griffin <tlg...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:38CB06F6...@bellsouth.net...
> sistercarol wrote:
> >
> > That can't be taught in a lecture hall. That
> > comes with time and practical experience.
While I agree that we need to learn through personal experience, I hardly
believe that should exempt schools from teaching the business side of a
commercial profession.
Students of design seem to be at a loss for any of the "basic" business
practices and when they show up in ADG and offer their services at a rate
that we don't approve of, we normally attack like a school of piranhas.
That's a double standard.
Personally, I would be much happier if the kinds of information that AIGA
and the Graphic Artists Guild offer in their books were taught in school
then we would have less designers under-pricing and making a general mess of
things.
just my thinking on the matter...
Paolo.
Paolo
noChefAtAll <tiberius...@mindspring.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:009d2c58...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
> Of course, some people go to college to avoid the real world. In
> my case, there was the matter of a small war in South East Asia I
> was doing my best to stay out of.
>
> Still, I got something.
>
> noChef
I'm sorry that things were not happy for you during that time. I hope things
are better for you now. =)
Best wishes,
Paolo.
Paolo
Well Patricia, I'm content to agree that we disagree.
Paolo.
Terry L. Griffin
about the stuff that's inherent to our profession. Stuff that's part of
being a successful designer.
If you get out of school and have no clue how to find work, how to build
a portfolio, what kinds of skills are being required in today's market,
the basics of printing and other common production methods,
etceteras...I'm sorry, you only got half an education. (Whosever fault
that is.)
I'm not absolving students from having responsibility for their careers.
But also, I'm not about to absolve the institution from the
responsibility it should have of at least OFFERING this knowledge to
students. If two fine arts courses were a "prerequisite" for my
graduating with a graphic design degree--which they were--then how come
"design career 101" (or some such offering) wasn't even offered as an elective?
Is that asking too much? Is that really shifting responsibility? And it
would be such a welcome benefit to everyone involved. Let's not talk
about who's ultimately responsible for whose career...we know that's the
individual. Instead, let's focus on ways to improve the education of our
designers. After all, design education doesn't just affect an
individual's career...it affects the entire profession.
terry
Dimitri wrote:
>
> I agree , but I also believe that we shouldn't remove responsibility of
> foresight from the student to make decisions that benefit their future.
> If they need a business education to augment their career then by-golly,
> go get one.
>
> "Terry L. Griffin" wrote:
> >
> > sistercarol wrote:
> > >
> > > That can't be taught in a lecture hall. That
> > > comes with time and practical experience.
> >
Terry L. Griffin
this issue, and I hope that your dissertation will benefit from it. This
is my take on your question:
First and foremost, a design education should teach graphic design as a
craft. As Patricia has said, it helps ground a person in all the
knowledge, principles and skills they'll use to build their career on.
The most important thing I got from my education was the cultivation of
my "design sense." This is, in essence, what makes me a designer...and
through whatever means, everyone needs to develop this sense of identity
and instinct in order to be successful in the real world. Art school,
mentoring, etc., are all good for this.
I'm not going to rehash my obvious feelings on the importance an
institution should play in not just "feeding the soul" of a designer,
but in also helping her be able to feed her own pocket. (Graphic design,
after all, is a commercial venture.) But these are basically my reasons
for advocating design school. Thanx again for starting this stimulating
debate...and good luck in your career.
terry
Paolo
>>>You don't go to art college to learn the business of art.
No, but you go to design college to learn the business and function of
design.
>>>I didn't get an art degree for that reason and I haven't met
a graphic
designer who has.
Well, welcome to ADG, a forum full of designers from all over the world and
many of them have and will disagree with your statement. I'd say the sole
fact that you're discussing it with people discounts your comment that you
"haven't met a graphic designer who has".
>>>I don't think that art schools should, and need, to teach
design career 101 classes.
Fair enough. But I think schools that teach graphic design should.
>>>I believe that graduates get their portfolios together and
then they hit the bricks. Designers learn as they go just like every other
designer has ever done in the past.
Then why go to school at all? Why not just "hit the bricks" and 'learn as
you go'?
This whole statement makes it difficult to understand your point. You state
the art school (design included) does not need the teachings of design
specific ethics and business and then further it by saying it's because
designers should simply learn by trial and error.
It is absolutely unavoidable to learn as you go. No matter what you learn in
school, the bulk of your learning is still going to happen during the years
of practical application but that is no reason to discount education to give
you a leg up. It would be far from useless training and preparation.
>>>There's no class that a school could offer that could
possibly teach you what it is to actually be a designer in the real world.
The only way to be a real-world designer is to get a job and start
designing.
I thought that was what internships were for. The fact that working as a
designer can teach you what it is like to be a "real world" designer is
proof that with the proper practical application in schools, you could
indeed learn what the real world will be like. Honestly, I find it very
difficult to follow such rigid thinking. Your debate is like the proverbial
Oak tree in the wind, ready to snap, while the idea of diversifying the
present design education is more like the Willow tree.
> > > > > > I've got a question for you; Do you think that educating
students about the
> > > > > > business, ethics and promotion of design should be a core
element in a
> > > > > > design school's programs or do you think that students should be
solely
> > > > > > taught about aesthetics, colour, form, tools, etc.?
> > > > > >
Paolo
> There are only two that I would answer, "Probably not," but I base that on
> personality rather than ability. Everyone else I still hold in very high
> esteem. Many of my instructors were featured in design publications (CA,
> Print), Illustrators Annuals, Photography Annuals, The One Show awards in
> New York; and were active participants (and winners in the juried shows)
at
> local Art Director's clubs. These teachers were the "real deal," and
remain
> an inspiration to me.
>
> Dan
First of all thank you very much for your input!
And secondly- You lucky bastard! ;) LOL!
Thanks again.
Arsheena
Poptart7O4
>work one day and somehow the topic of college came up....we were
>standing around after lunch. One of my co-workers pointed this
>out to me, and I agreed. I think it stems from regret. We work
>with a woman who tends to over-compensate when it involves any
>sort of intellectual discussion, and she usually ends up having an
>attitude and walking away. What's sad is that she's extremely
>bright and capable on her own, and probably regrets like hell not
>having gone to college.....so she takes it out on us sometimes.
>
>We all have regrets, and I have been guilty of the above as well.
>
>Anyway, that's where that came from. :-)
>
>--Carol
Hmm, I think I see your point and agree that sometimes there is regret
involved. I can say though that I don't require my designers to hold a college
diploma. I do require though that they have a professional portfolio, a strong
grasp of fundamentals, a strong knowledge of a list of industry related
software, a desire to work in this field and perhaps most importantly of all,
an open mind to the fact that there is more than one way to do something. There
is much to learn in this field beyond whatever gives us the basics to get
started in it. Sometimes I see the above list in someone with a degree,
sometimes I see it in someone without. We all have our experiences to go on
though so can understand where yours might be different.
Speaking of design staff. I am getting ready to have to sort thru a new batch
of both staff and interns. Arghhhh someone pass me the Excedrin....
Michelle
Poptart7O4
I think the business class idea is really divided in half. On one hand we have
the business of being in business. How to get leads, how to present your
portfolio. How to bid jobs, etc. All very worthwhile things to learn. All very
teachable. The workshops Dan has written alone are valuable to any designer,
both new and old.
On the other hand there is the business of understanding your clients business.
Discecting what they are saying they "want" and understanding how to give them
what they "need". For instance, I often have a client say "I want one of those
watermarks of my logo as my page background and I want 50 pages that do this".
By asking the right questions I often discover that they were not really set on
what they had asked for but there was an underlying "need" that would be better
suited by another solution. I realize that classes can only teach so much
during initial education. I would like to see schools become more involved in
teaching these needs for commercial artisits though. This could be in classes,
internships, job fairs, role playing, what have you.
Yes the "real world" is going to teach them more, we never stop learning I
hope. I would like to see a student with a better grasp of what is left to
learn though.
Michelle
Monte Mickley
education. my degree isn't in graphic design. but, i've done graphic design
work.
off the top of my head, i think that those who do graphic design with a
degree generally have these advantages over me:
-in hiring, serious ad agencies give them extra consideration for their
degree
-they have a much better understanding of g. design history
-in g. design they are much better at "crossing their t's and dotting their
i's" / they do better on the fine points and eccentrics
-they have more diverse knowledge in all the areas of g. design media
-the industry (and possibly even society) accepts them more readily as full
fledge g. designers
-having a base of professors and associates that they can contact and ask
for advice comes more easily for them
-and i suspect there are more advantages they have in the area of g. design
i think your question is partly a result of the unique aspect of this
esteemed profession......
g. designers do not carry the same level of tangible high responsibility as
do those in other professions such as: doctors, lawyers, engineers, and etc.
nor does their level of knowledge "stand in the public eye" to be on the
same par with that of: many software engineers, mathematicians, physics
professionals and the likes. there are other professions that the public
does oooooo and aaahhhh over more.
Paolo
> Yes the "real world" is going to teach them more, we never stop learning I
> hope. I would like to see a student with a better grasp of what is left to
> learn though.
> Michelle
Michelle,
It never ceases to amaze me, the grasp that you have on our profession and
the clarity you bring to this newsgroup and its discussions! I often look to
your comments as inspiration for the many issues I handle as a designer.
Thanks for all the great advice and info you have provided ADG!
Sincerely,
Paolo.
Drew
> under no oblibligation to enlighten students about the "real world," but
> NOT to is a disservice to everyone involved.
I was lucky. I was required to have a minor in business for graduation.
Had to learn management, marketing, econ, stats, etc. On the other hand,
my partner is a graduate of Ringling and knows nothing about business.
(Guess who does what around here?)
Drew
Paolo
I'm glad to hear that your perseverance paid off in the end!
Although I have a great respect for the merits of a solid education, I also
realize the changes that have occurred due to technology. With recent
hacking attacks on major organizations such as Amazon.com and ZDnet by
children it makes me realize that expecting talent and ability to stem only
from school to be an ever increasing misjudgement. The same applies to
graphic design and art. Children (not that this is new) have demonstrated
great talent without the benefits of college or university. To think that
they may one day go to a source of higher learning and still come away with
no understanding of how to better apply their skills to the industry is
absolutely disconcerting!
Just my thoughts on the matter. ;)
Paolo.
Jim Howard wrote
sistercarol
answer to your question.
Sorry, but you deserved it after the "inflated ego" crack.
--Carol
Jason Hosking <jhos...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:8aj8m7$f6i$1...@news.ihug.co.nz...
> > Hmm, I think I see your point and agree that sometimes there
is regret
> > involved. I can say though that I don't require my designers
to hold a
> college diploma. I do require though that they have a
professional
> portfolio, a strong grasp of fundamentals, a strong knowledge of
a list of
> industry related
> > software, a desire to work in this field and perhaps most
importantly of
> all,
> > an open mind to the fact that there is more than one way to do
something.
>
>
> This is true, but can you tell me, those of you who are in
employing
> positions, what other differences you have noticed between those
that have
> been to design school and those that haven't.
>
> What do the 'educated' group have that the other doesn't (appart
from
> inflated egos)?
>
> Jason
>
>
Poptart7O4
>
>It never ceases to amaze me, the grasp that you have on our profession and
>the clarity you bring to this newsgroup and its discussions! I often look to
>your comments as inspiration for the many issues I handle as a designer.
>
>Thanks for all the great advice and info you have provided ADG!
>
>Sincerely,
>Paolo.
>
Paolo,
Thank you. In the middle of what I "affectionally" <cough cough> call Meeting
Monday, that was just what I needed.
Michelle
<walking into her next round of client fires to put out with a new smile>
Poptart7O4
>> involved. I can say though that I don't require my designers to hold a
>college diploma. I do require though that they have a professional
>portfolio, a strong grasp of fundamentals, a strong knowledge of a list of
>industry related
>> software, a desire to work in this field and perhaps most importantly of
>all,
>> an open mind to the fact that there is more than one way to do something.
>
>
>This is true, but can you tell me, those of you who are in employing
>positions, what other differences you have noticed between those that have
>been to design school and those that haven't.
>
>What do the 'educated' group have that the other doesn't (appart from
>inflated egos)?
>
>Jason
>
>
Hm, seeing that it was my earlier response that you chose to quote I would like
to clarify that I never said that educated people have inflated egos.
As a parent, I want, hope and encourage my son to go to college when the time
comes. Regardless of what he goes to study it will expose him to a wide variety
of possiblities, people and experiences that he can use to take whichever path
he chooses for himself. It is difficult to have time to take time for those
things when you go directly into the workplace. Additionally there are
employers that will make final hiring decisions based on educational degrees.
Then of course there are a variety of jobs that will always require a degree.
So for him, I would like to see him give himself one more "tool" in his
resources kit.
As an employer I would say the difference between those with formal educations
and a selfstudy of the craft that I see is a level of confidence in ones work.
As for portfolios I have seen better work at times from someone without a
formal education. We all have our on little prejeduces and preferences in life.
I just don't have one in this particular area.
But damn, come into my home and put the toilet paper on the roll backwards and
look out... <g>
Michelle
Paolo
> Paolo,
> Thank you. In the middle of what I "affectionally" <cough cough> call
Meeting
> Monday, that was just what I needed.
>
> Michelle
> <walking into her next round of client fires to put out with a new smile>
My pleasure, Michelle and good luck! *wink*
Paolo.
Jason Hosking
paul rogers
The benefits of Tertiary level Design education are many and varied, as
are the talents of the individuals who attend said institutions.
Tertiary Institutions (inc. Universities btw) tend to provide a Design
environment where creative minds can be challenged on levels from
practical to intellectual. They are also an environment for learning
societal skills in ones 'chosen' field of study, fraternizing with ones
peers and learning from a set of experiences/challenges and hopefully
successes.(failures too to some extent)
_Unfortunatly_ these Institutes seem to be increasingly moving to
treating students as paying clients (user pays) with the holistic and
humanistic views retreating further into accountancy generated oblivion.
Working in a Design school I feel it is my +responsibility+ to give
students the most complete, well rounded _introduction_ to the role of a
designer within society, stressing on numerous occasions that their
design education is only starting here. My problem with the 'students as
clients' model being that its not so simple as buying a product. (anyone
for a refund? Got a reciept for that?).
I guess to a certain degree (pun intended) and seeing as I recieved a
"free" education, I also genuinely feel for the hardship caused by
rampant student loans (our students graduate with an average student
loan of $NZ 20,000. This was the deposit I paid on my house 4 years
ago).
Getting a job apon graduation can often feel like a lottery and the
workplace competition is so intense that even doing a tertiary level
qualification will _not_ prepare you for the market. Also, unfortunatly,
that is also where the real learning begins and this, if anything,
clearly marks the distinction between the two types of designers you are
discussing.
An <ahem> educated designer will not want to go into a design studio at
the bottom of the ladder so to speak. A <ahem,again> non-educated
designer may well start at the bottom and be higher up (art director?)
in the 3 years it takes the Design student to graduate. In the short
term industry practise counts more. In the long term the higher
education designer will hopefully aspire to loftier things (Creative Director)
just my $0.02
regards
paul
Jason Hosking
> answer to your question.
Please accept my appologies Carol, this was not aimed at anyone in this
discussion.
Jason
sistercarol
--Carol
Jason Hosking <jhos...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:8akveg$4n7$1...@news.ihug.co.nz...
Dimitri
Does the Juliet School of Art offer musicians a self-marketing /
business education?
Why didn't I get one with my environmental studies?
Same with my mathematics, history, science, english...etc.
All these fields offer careers, yet we do not have self-marketing
courses offered on a proprietory basis for each.
What makes design different, exclusive, special?
I'm sincerely curious now, because I personally think that, as the other
fields, we have to be cognitive of our potential and futures, as
individuals, and make the decisions to bring about our own
circumstances. If as you say, certain criteria should be met, then the
students need to speak up before anyone will move a muscle.
That is the accountablility I was speaking about. The school has to be
shown that there's a need. They won't shell out resources and monies
otherwise.
You are an educated man, you've had design associations much longer than
I, and you are a consumate professional, so I respect your opinion and
fault my perspective long before yours.
> > > This is true. But institutions should at least see that their graduates
> > > "have a clue" when they leave the building.
> >
> > No, STUDENTS should see they have "a clue" when they leave the building
> > in preparation for their careers.
> >
> > Of course, colleges are
> > > under no oblibligation to enlighten students about the "real world," but
> > > NOT to is a disservice to everyone involved.
> > >